How realistic is Dungeons and Dragons combat?

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An in depth look at how D&D pen and paper tabletop rpg combat would work in real life, such as the round order, range, movement, and fighting in a five foot square.
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[@shadiversity]

Just to clarify, it's true there are feats/classes that allow you to lung forward and attack an additional 5ft, but my point is that in real life any noob can lung forward when attacking, it's very basic, and restricting it to a special class or learned feat/talent makes no sense. A level 1 warrior of any type is supposed to be well trained and proficient in their weapons, and saying they can't lung is very unrealistic and unsatisfying, I describe this same thing in the video where I talk about making wide sweeping attacks even when a low level. Also, D&D may claim every combatant's actions happen within the 6 seconds of the round but this is directly contradicted by the successive order of the turns. If I move 30ft and then attack, the rules are clear and we have confirmed this in reality that those actions took 6 seconds, and therefore if anyone reacts to my new position, it has to have happened *after* that six second period. This gets compounded when another party member then tries to heal my character from getting damaged in that same round. If it all happens at the same time the healer started to move to heal me before I was even damaged because my character was damaged at the end of the turn. Did the healer know the future? no, they are reacting *after* my actions and then undertake actions that also take six seconds to preform, ergo, according to how player actions play out in the D&D rules it is literally impossible in many instances for every combatant's turns to happen simultaneously within 6 seconds.

[@temugebagira6592]

hi shad

[@jackmorgan5884]

How about making that lunge skill a basic action available to all classes for combat im pritty new to D&D and just curious if it would work that way

[@aldoushuxley5953]

My Fix: - +5ft for every weapon - disadvantage if the target is 5ft or closer too you - daggers ignore this drawback This also makes daggers more usable, and makes grappling more interesting

[@pyeitme508]

No wonder lol 😂!

[@Spiceodog]

I don’t think you comprehend how long I’ve been waiting for a video like this

[@simpson6700]

this feels like shad had an argument with his DM that he didn't get over with yet.

[@thekaxmax]

he's the GM

[@als3022]

Right where my mind went

[@rachdarastrix5251]

You know little known fact, but Orcs actually LOVE to argue peacefully and non violently. But its a trick. Don't fall for it. You see, the more the orc sticks around and argues peacefully and non violently, the more the one they are arguing with will more and more be tempted by their instincts to turn to violence because they can't win the argument. This is what the orc wants. Once the one the orc is arguing with turns to violence the orc will then grab his 45 pound 2 handed mace, smile smugly, and say "You attacked first!" This is the real reason so many people think orcs aren't smart.

[@rachdarastrix5251]

Its actually a method of weeding out those who show signs of weakness without breaking any laws.

[@TheSlammurai]

@@rachdarastrix5251 But my character is Half-Orc. What does that mean for her?

[@eldritch_whispers1654]

Shad fact: Shad can reach anywhere in the material plane using his lunge technique, that's why he's so mad at not being able to lunge in d&d

[@lanededominicis6068]

Monk bugbear has entered the chat

[@shaneross739]

There's a subclass of warrior called battle master can lunge though.

[@roxxram9151]

@@shaneross739 honestly the closest thing to Shad's actual class, given his in-depth understanding of weapons and techniques

[@showtime6310]

Additional Shad Fact: When Shad uses 1% of his true power his reach extends into the Astral Plane

[@shadow-faye]

@@showtime6310 3% places him far into ginnungagap

[@mcreeper3658]

Lunging Attack: When you make a melee weapon attack on your turn, you can expend one superiority die to increase your reach for that attack by 5 feet. If you hit, you add the superiority die to the attack's damage roll. Shad is a battlemaster

[@SkylarKeystone]

Was gonna comment this

[@redrex757]

That makes sense

[@whade62000]

Something Shad should realize: DnD keeps the core rules simple, and fancy things like manouvers become classes or subclasses. that way, the player that wants them can access them but everyone else isn't boggled down by them. Every player gets to use the rules (and only those extra rules) that they are interested in.

[@steadfastscout4606]

My thoughts exactly

[@ShiningDarknes]

@@whade62000 yeah like monks and rogues can move 5ft, attack, bonus disengage, continue the move to do what he kept doing which was stepping into the next square, attacking, and stepping back out again. Now anyone can do that but just as he stepped in to land a hit the enemy has a chance to strike back if you don’t disengage. Mobility (if I recall correctly) also lets you not provoke from any you attacked in a similar fashion.

[@skrumbleton3745]

By this logic, surely in response your enemy can, lean away from your lunging attack? Instead of standing statically as presented, hence you must move forward more.

[@JGM0JGM]

Exactly, especially if the attack comes from over 5 feet away, you have enough time to see it coming. Combat rules in D&D are not supposed to be "realistic", it's just a mechanic to transform a very complex fluid environment down to a few easily managed moves. Things will be totally unrealistic, and that is expected. If you make a change to make things more realistic, then as you aptly demonstrated, a counter can be made to show that the "improved" version is actually just as unrealistic. (For instance, the attacker is stretching so far out with his sword that although contact is made, there is much less force so we could say the target takes half damage and has a +4 to AC because he can see the attack coming from miles away...)

[@skylerpolendina7517]

Also, the 5E rules state that you control an *5ft area* This means you *could* theoretically be 10ft away while in adjacent 5ft squares by both being on the edge of the areas. And fighters and rogues *can* move mostly freely as a bonus action to signify them being able to recover from lunges, dodged/missed attacks, and such more easily than other classes.

[@jovej4455]

I think that's the point of AC. Since AC also describes your ability to dodge attacks or how likely you are to avoid the attack.

[@Thats_Griffin]

That's what rolling to hit is for, it would determine if your enemy dodges your attack.

[@stephieraye9534]

Yah and like the dummy is not even at the back of the square, like lunging into the other square he just hits the bummy in the center if it's square. More like 7 feet then 10

[@andragonm8932]

I can’t believe the DM forgot shad was a battle master fighter and could use a lunging attack to hit an opponent 10ft away without moving

[@disturbedcanon4765]

He's been using too many resources since he last rested. He's out of superiority dice.

[@John_NJDM]

This is a great point. The average farmer or tradesman, or even a wizard, thief, druid, barbarian, etc... all don't have the same level of training that a knight or professional man-at-arms would have. This is reflected in the ability of the trained combatant to execute combat maneuvers like Shad's. Note: I love D&D and I love Shad's channel!

[@pablovalencia829]

Shad should be able to use Vicious Mockery as well...

[@cowmanthe3rd]

@Dillon Brunschon Shad has a decent bit of practice compared to most people, but very little compared to a trained soldier or even a city guard in a fantasy setting. Just look at how open he leaves himself when he demonstrates his lunge, that (in dnd terms) is an example of stepping in, attacking, and then stepping back, which provokes attacks of opportunity (IE a counter attack). There are many ways to avoid that issue in DnD though, such as training extensively to be a Battle Master or taking the Martial Adept feat. That, to me, represents doing enough training and practice that you can actually do these types of thing without leaving yourself open to an immanent counter attack.

[@SilverGhost0]

@@cowmanthe3rd I would just like to add what I thought was shad's point, "That anyone can do that", but he didn't say you can do it and not be vunerable(if I missed of him saying something like that, then sorry, my comment was useless).

[@Kitsune10060]

"how Realistic is combat in DnD* Me, a caster: >.> not very.

[@justasandvich7168]

I was about to argue, until I realized your very existence is unrealistic

[@kingsadvisor18]

Monks who can move almost 100ft in six second intervals: laughs Barbarians who can get so angry that bladed weapons have trouble cutting through their bare skin: laughs manically Druid: laughs in Dire-Gorilla

[@scrubnub6203]

@@kingsadvisor18 Moving 100 ft in six seconds is humanly possible. Hard with equipment but possible.

[@Lastofthesigilites]

Me, an American with 20 firearms who plays a wizard or Artificer>> actually its pretty realistic.

[@eddthehead123]

My Half-Dragon wielding two Huge Tonfas and flying while wearing full plate armour: Incredibly realistic, what are you talking about?

[@pointynoodle]

Shad: Look! I can hit further than this 5 foot radius Also Shad: *leaves 5 foot radius*

[@isphus]

Just what i was thinking. As a DM i'm just here thinking "that just counts as moving 5ft, attacking and getting back lol"

[@SpiderconPrime]

@@isphus and a cheeky attack of oppurtunity from the opponent

[@Ryotbh]

"Look my back foot is planted!" **Stands with back foot on tip-toes and his front foot planted.**

[@floccinaucinihilipilificat6749]

@@Ryotbh *and still barely has enough range to mildly scrape the opponent with his attack*

[@MetalB1985]

@@SpiderconPrime Which should make sense, since it would be a an exchange of blows.

[@absenteechild8542]

Shad I would like to thank you for this opportunity. Now when someone in my game wants to just “lean real hard” I can roll and justify the response “the ogre bashes your unprotected back into the dirt, your jab does negligible damage and merely scrapes his nose” and I’ll have an in scale video demonstrating why that was a terrible idea

[@TehConqueror]

while also being able to say "the ogre leans away" and since all actions in the 6-second round occur simultaneously, the ogre target is AS allowed as the players to not TECHNICALLY leave their square while "leaning really hard"

[@Ultrox007]

"What if I lean forward?" >They lean back

[@lotoreo]

it's a lot harder to lean back without losing your balance or giving up your position than it is leaning forward Unless you're Neo of course

[@selo.harper.24]

The trouble I see with the leaning forward to attack is your attack is so telegraphed at that point now. Yeah, difficult to lean back yourself but you have area you're in, side step the attack or quickly step-back within your 5 feet of square. At his range he was barely touching the bandit in the center of their square, they had room to move and shift away. I fully agree standing in an adjacent square is ridiculous looking at it in RL like this, but attacking from SO far away and STAYING that far away is also a bit ridiculous.

[@zimzimph]

@@lotoreo you can also just step back? It's quite common. You see boxers do it all the time too /shrug/

[@lotoreo]

@@zimzimph yeah that's true actually, but that's stepping back and not leaning back.. you know, I think this all comes down to the fact that the very way DnD treats combat is a very bad way to get at the intricacies of actual fighting

[@SonOfTheNorthe]

The easiest solution to this is to make attacks outside your effective range, be made with disadvantage.

[@bencochrane6112]

Just looking at the lunge recovery, yeah that looks like you'd be vulnerable to a counter attack. An attack of opportunity if you will.

[@314Pirasy]

Yeah, but then why does *not* pulling back after doing that lunge remove that possibility ?

[@bencochrane6112]

@@314Pirasy Do you mean after a lunge or after a step? If recovering forward from a lunge, you'd be more vulnerable than stepping. Would this not just mean that a lunge of any sort would leave you open to an attack of opportunity? This doesn't help Shad's case, but it might make for an interesting mechanic (trade an AoO for 5 more feet attack range if you were more or less certain of a killing blow). If a step though, better control of balance and relatively slower movement mean you can act more defensively.

[@TheRealMeatwad]

@@bencochrane6112, I would say that if you "end your movement in the closer square", then it would simply be interpreted as not lunging but performing a more calculated and defensive move instead. Or lunging with an immediate transition to the guard as you step forward.

[@bencochrane6112]

@@TheRealMeatwad Yeah agreed, basically a step and attack, which already exists in the rules. Which renders the lunge as a core attack mechanic somewhat obsolete: you can do it, but returning to your same spot offers an attack of opportunity. Rogues can Cunning action to get out of it, and fighters have a manoeuvre that does the same.

[@violenceislife1987]

A proper parry would knock him prone

[@deadpoolvdante]

As someone who does larping I can honestly say, if u are fighting someone who isn’t a literal battle dummy and u lunge in to attack with anything other than a polearm, they WILL block and u WILL be killed. That’s why DnD says u need to be 5ft away to actually hit

[@thekaxmax]

not true, I've seen lunges successfully used for sword on sword fighting, both with and without shields.

[@deadpoolvdante]

@@thekaxmax were they done by rookies or people who trained a lot?

[@thekaxmax]

@@deadpoolvdante a lot. SCA fighters of many years practice, fencers or many years practice, LARP fighters with experience. Lunges work against people with no polearms. Note that the lunge wouldn't be a standard fencing move if the statement that they didn't work was true.

[@deadpoolvdante]

@@thekaxmax so in other words, people who trained to attack with lunging and had a lot of experience. So if they were a DnD character they would’ve had the lunging attack feat. The video says anybody who can pick up a sword could successfully do a lunge attack, which is what I’m disagreeing with

[@thekaxmax]

@@deadpoolvdante Almost all sword-only arts that I know of, and I've done several and studied a lot more, have a lunge move. The only major ones I know of that don't are things like katana--which has a lunging swing that acts like a lunge--and some sword and shield forms that use a shield rush instead. /Everything/ else with a blade has a sudden thrust move of some kind: a lunge. So do axe forms, with a much shorter weapon. Cos if you can't take advantage of a sudden opening at normal combat range or just outside it what good is the style? Now, doing it effectively and avoiding a counterhit, that takes some practice. But not special skill.

[@tholzak]

I feel like Shad is reaching (get it?) for this one, for several reasons: - At 10 ft distance, you're not within combat range for most melee weapons. As per example at 7:50 using a longsword you would be out of combat/melee range. Therefore I would rule Shad's argument for the 5 ft rule as invalid. - The way Shad needs to fully extend to get a hit in (8:45, 9:23, 10:40). Leaving a toe in a square doesn't mean you're _standing in it_ imo. If your weight is on the front foot, you've moved. If the weight would remain on the back foot, then I'd rule in favor of Shad but alas, his weight shifted to the front foot. - The amount of damage you would even be able to do to an actively fighting (dodging) opponent. Example: 16:35 moves me to say very little damage. In summary, I would say while it is technically possible to "hit" an opponent from over 5 feet away, you most likely won't do noticable damage to your opponent if you even manage to connect in the first place. Since the source material did not use any live opponents but only used a stationary doll as opponent I am unable to fully confirm the above statement.

[@TatsuChi]

ive always taken the 5ft to be something like the weapons maximum effective range ie where you are most likely to still be able to do significant damage with a landed blow, as shown by shad yes you could hit beyond that but his on example you are really stretching yourself to do so thus losing any effectiveness/power and as such you could house rule to reflect this if needs be ie you land the hit but you suffer a reduction modify to what you role on your hit dice if you miss opponent has option of attack of oppotunity

[@reclaimer1173]

Yeah. It’s really bad logic here. The sweep as well. It’s a feat because it takes training to be Effective with a sweep against multiple enemies. A noob doing that in a life and death fight leaves themselves open. You’d have to be trained to look for moment that you can pull off a giant swish. Plus. The combat rules for the six second round is that everything IS happening concurrently over six seconds. And there are reactions that can happen between actions. Plus. When he says people high in the initiate for cogent “respond” to people lower? To interrupt? You’re playing the same rules. Ac isn’t always armor it’s the ability to deflect, bend out of the way, defend your area. They just had/were bad dms and didn’t use descriptions to fill out that six seconds.

[@michaelbrobbel8753]

Shad is also not taking the actual weight of the real weapons into consideration. Real swords are not so easy to hold at the very end the way he is reaching, especially the great sword

[@tholzak]

@@reclaimer1173 Well put! Needless to say, but for clarification purposes I'll state the obvious: it's a game. It has to have rules - maybe somewhat simplified as to what they represent in D&D - to make it comprehensible for players. In D&Ds case the rules are also meant to make the game have a baseline of flow in combat and to not make it unbelievably difficult. Game take up a lot of time as it is already - imagine the time spent having to argue combat rules every session over and over as a DM... Somebody else in the comments said it as well: this video feels like Shad is sore about a lost argument with his DM.

[@jacob8080]

Additional note for sections like the Long Sword. He is hitting with the tip of the sword, but a long sword is Slashing damage, like to Slash with the sword. Minor note but if he wanted to take that into account I feel we would be quickly over-complexifying the systems.

[@austinsill4254]

If anything this makes d&d weapon range seem more reasonable.

[@Fauxknight]

Agreed. He pretty much shows how the 5' square is a reasonable approximation to use, I mean it covers not just longswords but maces, daggers, and all sorts of shorter non-lunging weapons. Obviously you could add lunging rules/traits for more complicated combat, but then you're playing a more complicated system like Cogent and not DnD.

[@AM-hf9kk]

Agreed. Massively over-extending yourself and doing minimal real damage is not a useful measure of the area you can EFFECTIVELY control. The only reasonable takeaway is that perhaps greatswords should also have reach (similar to a glaive, halberd, lance, pike, spiked chain, and whip in 5e). A simple spear is also a thrown weapon, so not giving it reach keeps it more mechanically balanced.

[@bonogiamboni4830]

@@AM-hf9kk i believe shad himself made a video explaining how dnd "greatswords" are actually just longswords since they can't be one-handed with a shield while dnd "longswords" can so they're actually arming swords. If there actually were proper greatswords aka zweihanders/montante/similar big swords that don't get as ridiculous as the cloud buster in dnd then they should absolutely have reach, but i guess you could just take a glaive/swordstaff and reflavor it as a greatsword.

[@bonogiamboni4830]

@@Fauxknight other comments pointed out how the battlemaster fighter (aka a guy who trained in combat enough to learn advanced techniques instead of randomly swinging) can in fact get lunging attacks to attack people at 10 ft of distance without suffering penalties, so i'd agree it makes sense that other people who didn't train to do that particular thing, say wizards, can't do it.

[@movieman29k]

*Laughs in Bugbear wielding a halbert*

[@TrueMentorGuidingMoonlight]

our universe: "But what about dragons?" alternate universe: "But what about dungeons?"

[@vegancheese2999]

Kolyan Velius HA!

[@nurikhadem7880]

Actually this video made me appreciate the 5 foot square. Because it would be the area opponents move around in. So if everyone is on the far edge of their square regularly and lunges in to strike this would totally make sense and explain why flanking gives advantage. But a lunge attack as an action that does not allow additional bonus attacks would be very interesting, if only allowed when the opponent is being flanked.

[@NagaDarmag]

I'm only really familiar with 3,5 but I would interpret it as a 5 foot move forward (move action) one attack (standard action) and a 5 foot move back (free action).

[@thekaxmax]

which is why GURPS uses a 3' hex: you occupy the hex, fight into the hexes out from there, and reach weapons allow further out again. These include longer swords as well as polearms.

[@dgriffinctc3834]

I've always interpreted distance as each character controls 5ft Sq. Do two characters in melee could be anywhere from 10ft apart (each at the edge of their square) to shivving distance (just shy of grappling.)

[@DisKorruptd]

This is EXACTLY what it means

[@skylerpolendina7517]

That's quite literally what the PHB says.

[@Borissh89]

7:57 "This is getting out of hand! Now, there are two of them!"

[@escudojoreg5194]

I'd unironically purchase that Shad "Figurine" in the thumbnail. And I don't even play DnD.

[@MeepChangeling]

How much woudl you pay? I'll model it and send you the STL to be 3d printed.

[@nawalathhariansyah3263]

Me too, shad looks really awesome in it!

[@u1849ka]

Hero Forge custom mini I mocked-up. \o/ www.heroforge.com/load_config%3D12032736/ Ed: added the bow. Ed.2: Fixed the beard color and bow clipping with the quiver. Ed.3: Added base items.

[@Batman_the_bad_man]

I'd use it for warhammer

[@sand5857]

Needs more weapons. Haha

[@johannesdolch]

DnD are a compromise to keep it really simple. There are pros and cons to that but many people find more realistic games like shadowrun too complicated.

[@mcwolf1096]

Heh, and we actually made some of the SR rules _more_ complex at some point... It's just that every player knew the rules they needed well enough to apply them on their own without the GM needing to tell them 😋

[@rohenthar8449]

But in many cases they are highly unrealistic.

[@semorebutts2584]

Okay then shad. Give swords reach. Give other weapons "long reach" Because daggers are not giving you any reach, hand axes give very little reach. So increasing standard to 10 feet away seems like a poor choice.

[@TacticusMagnum]

GM: And Now you have Syphilis Me: Bold of you too assume I don't already GM: O_O

[@Marinealver]

You see, our party just got back from the Warren's and I was afflicted with Hopeless, so to reduced stress I was put in the Brothel, but after that there wasn't enough money to put me in the sanatorium.

[@ShepardStudios]

D O U B L E S Y P H I L I S

[@robertyocum7200]

@@Marinealver RIP. Guess your not going back to the dungeons for a few weeks.

[@ashtongiertz8728]

Weaponized syphilis; you can't see.

[@Shinn_Ryusei]

Alternate title "Shad Explains Battlemaster Lunge Maneuver"

[@gmilb97]

I just scrolled down to see if somebody had made this comment yet.

[@ThePhoenixSlayer]

I just wanted to say as well, when you were talking about combat turns in D&D, in the game, one combat round (meaning everyone's turns put together) is all 6 seconds. But not each turn. The WHOLE round is 6 seconds. So, because of initiative (basically indicating how fast you reacted when combat started) you get to go before others, as if you acted quicker in that 6 seconds.

[@dgameboy101b]

I think it also bares mentioning that the use of a turn order is a compromise, sacrificing realism and players' ability to micromanage their actions in combat, to keep things easier and simpler to resolve, allowing for more powerful or complex actions to be introduced into the system.

[@Voron_Aggrav]

@@dgameboy101b yeah, the idea of a Round is that Everything happens simultaneous, and the Turn order is just the individual moves that lead to a composite image of around 6 seconds, so if you find the Rounds system unrealistic, just think of them as a 6 second Summary of what everyone did, Now a lot of what Happens during the Round still would count as Metagaming if you're truly critical, but well if you run everything at once it gets confusing and complicated Fast

[@shono1997]

I was looking for this comment. It kept bothering me when he referred to every players turn as 6sec long. Combat would be goofy in your head if you are thinking every turn is 6sec, rather than the whole round.

[@Voron_Aggrav]

@@shono1997 6 seconds is a Very long time when it comes to these things, I'd honestly would try to see if I could GM in such a way that it actually would seem like everything happened simultaneous during a round, though I'm very aware that the system exists for a reason to not do that

[@Galhamon]

Thank you for pointing this out I wanted to go through the comments before I said the exact same thing. I started using more colorful descriptors as a player and honed it to perfection as a DM and my players love it! I like to describe combat as more dynamic and vivid, rather than the idea that you stand "toe to toe" and swing until someone gets to 0 HP. I use the exact thing he is talking about with how close the attack roll was to the AC of the player or monster. I have influenced a lot of players over the years with this idea, and it brings me joy.

[@76feff]

In response to the 6 second round...At 45 years of age, and had started playing D&D when I was just seven, I've been around the block a time or two. During that time I ran across rules in early D&D, basic/first ed, that state during a combat round there are many blows and furry of action assumed to take place, but only once in that span of time (unless you get more than 1 attack) does an opening present itself for you to truly make a to hit attempt.

[@starstreamheartlocke652]

I also think there is a misunderstanding. Shad seems to be oprating under the assumption that every individual player action takes 6 seconds as opposed to the round as a whole. It's meant to play out in (roughly) the same timeframe.

[@PeregrinTintenfish]

@@starstreamheartlocke652 I don't think that is what he said.

[@starstreamheartlocke652]

@@PeregrinTintenfish He said something along then lines of "I take my action, then they take their action." But the turns are knid of a disambiguation for the game's clarity. What's more supposed to be interpreted is that over the course of 6 seconds, every turn that was taken happens at about the same time, with the exception of actions that directly influence the actions of another character.

[@PeregrinTintenfish]

@@starstreamheartlocke652 right, but even playing it, one can forget that. Turn order does matter, a lot. The problem is most obvious when trying to retreat. If an adventurer starts running away he can move 2x his speed. Then his pursuer moves 2x his speed and then is able to attack. It would not be possible in RL for a pursuer running the same speed to overtake someone. But because the one fleeing has stopped, at the end of his turn, it is impossible for him to get away.

[@starstreamheartlocke652]

@@PeregrinTintenfishYou're right, there are a few things that don't translate over well in that regard, but I've never felt like cases like that pop up a lot in actual play.

[@bazs7722]

If anything, the video proved to me the exact opposite what Shad says - yes, you need to move to adjacent square to hit someone with a sword. Leaving a toe behind isn't exactly the same as staying in the same square. However, this whole lunge things is an excellent way to flavour what you do in combat.

[@Allen2142]

The Revelation that shad and jazza are connected by Blood is legitimately blowing my mind right now.

[@Betito1171]

I thought he was gonna be some distant cousin when I read your comment

[@miraakuloso]

They talked about that in the video jazza made a 3d printed chainmail armkr

[@xX_wiLLiam_Xx]

they WHAT

[@marcusaustin10]

@@miraakuloso it was actually surprising.

[@Battleguild]

We are all connected by blood through the Blood God.

[@PSReldus]

"I technically didn't leave the square" you say, having completely left the square except the foot you left behind. If you're playing 5e you can already step up into the danger zone and step back after striking, but after your little lunge you're left vulnerable to a counter attack(an AoO) when you pull back. Especially if there are multiple opponents. I will agree that in the case of 3.5/Pathfinder where it's a feat, that should probably just be a thing anyone with proficiency could do.

[@MetharosKM]

Love your videos, Shad. I think you might've misunderstood a few rules in D&D, though. There are already rules in place for almost everything you mentioned in this video. According to 5th Edition rules: - Movement already allows you to get into and out of an adjacent tile. If an enemy occupies a tile adjacent to you and you move away, you're subject to an opportunity attack, requiring the Disengage action to prevent. It makes a certain sense that a person could advance 5 feet, strike, then retreat with their guard up, but that is what your AC is for. Remember that AC is partially determined by Dexterity, and represents your natural hardiness (10), the strength of your armor, and your Dexterity. Disengage, conversely, is when you devote your full attention to keeping the enemy too occupied to take a cheeky swipe at your leg as you back up. - Reaching across a river: Costs double movement. So a 5 foot river costs ten feet to cross, ten to retreat. 20 feet total. The difficult terrain mechanic covers this already. Also, the enemy will get an opportunity attack as you retreat. - The weapon sweep example is essentially the Disengage action, as described. A "noob" can't *effectively* harm adjacent enemies, because the sweep is clumsy, but it would allow him free movement without them offending him as he dances about in the combat zone, because they're busy trying not to get hit by has wild sword sweeps. - Combat rounds are six second per round, not six seconds per turn. They're already simultaneous. - Your example of tripping everyone up with a high enough combat roll is already covered by improvisational actions in combat and ability checks. For example, a player kicks over a barrel of fish. Cool, that's creative. Everybody in the puddle zone makes a Dex saving throw or falls prone. DM can invent the DC off the top of their head, probably 15 or so. Similar answer if they get creative with rope, or try something clever with a sack of marbles. A broad-area leg sweep could conceivably fall under this umbrella. I can't speak to the rules of earlier editions, I started playing at 5th. I do think D&D rules can get a little bloated at times, and if this video is basically an advertisement for simplification, it works. Maybe Cogent is the answer to that issue. I hope so, I'm honestly tired of having to fumble for the right die every time I cast a spell, or review combat actions every time a new player needs to understand what, exactly, they're permitted to do besides simply whack a goblin on the head. But I wanted to point out that most of your complaints on the limitations of D&D are actually not limited in 5e, the rules mostly allow for it, but maybe not precisely as you describe.

[@mikeroberts8552]

He did make it abundantly clear that even though the rules say all actions happen at the same time, it doesnt feel like it mechanically, and that everyone should be able to do a lunging attack, not just battlemasters, although i do agree about attacks of opportunity being a reason not everyone can lunge, i just think reactions are a little to restricted in 5e

[@cyberguy3376]

Little did he realize the only reason a human, such as himself, could perform such feats of sword mastery was because variant humans start with a feat...

[@bonogiamboni4830]

He's a lvl 3 battlemaster fighter, he has lunging attack.

[@roaringlaughter3812]

My thoughts exactly

[@DragonElixion]

As of this video I've seen his Lunging Attack. He's a level 2 fighter who THINKS he's a level 3 Battlemaster, at best.

[@bonogiamboni4830]

@@DragonElixion makes sense.

[@josh4601]

fun fact, you can attack 10ft away in 5e, if you "lunge" which i believe is one of the Battle Master Maneuvers "Lunging Attack When you make a melee weapon attack on your turn, you can expend one superiority die to increase your reach for that attack by 5 feet. If you hit, you add the superiority die to the attack's damage roll." Which is what i'd say you did. Also, spears do not have reach in 5e. you need a pike.

[@josh4601]

@JoeRingo118 ah yes, forgot about that one. But yeah, it makes sense, with spear training you learn to lunge more, increasing your damage and reach.

[@SuperCheeseGod]

There's also a "Lunge" feat in pathfinder, which does the same, kinda (+5ft range, -1 to hit). So I'd say he just had the feat and did a lunge over there. Even the -1 to hit seems adequate.

[@Dachnik228]

Shad is just a battle master who can do Lunging attack maneuver at will

[@shadiversity]

Yes but in reality any noob can lung, they're very basic, restricting it to a special class makes no sense.

[@Dramoklos]

@@shadiversity not alot of things in dnd do make sense

[@FalkFlak]

You have an interesting initiative system there that many others tried before, also. What you probably don't grasp is that you double the initiave phase this way and also you have to remember the announced actions of ALL combat participants while resolving them. It's easy to see why so few systems rely on anouncing the actions beforehand.

[@Apothis56]

I feel like the weight and momentum required to effectively use these weapons. Yes at 15 feet you could poke him but the concept of ac would imply he could easily slap it away leading to the 5 foot radius to deal damage not to annoy.

[@1AmGroot]

Shad, you made a big mistake. It's not 6 seconds in a turn, it's 6 seconds in a ROUND. As in those 4 adventurers and 2 orcs taking their turn? All happening within the same 6 seconds. Also, reactions exist! These can be taken once a round by each player (or monster) and are used to do something in response to something someone else did. Did you shoot an arrow at me? I'll use my reaction to create a magical barrier, making it harder to hit me!

[@shadiversity]

Thanks for the correction.

[@Zombiewithabowtie]

Did that Orc just try to move past the Paladin to attack the Sorcerer on the back lines? Sentinel Feat!

[@1AmGroot]

@Vyldim That's why I used it!

[@sand5857]

You missed also what happens if there is an enemy in the other squares... and that they are not FFX dummies... they move, like you. I still agree on 2handers reach. :)

[@Orynae]

Yeah, the whole time he was explaining I was like... that's not how it works. It _seems_ to all happen in succession because it's easier to just show the effects of each thing right as each player declares what they're doing. But in actuality, it's no different than what he was describing for Cogent, aside from using the same attack roll for the entire round.

[@BobMcBobJr]

So what Shad wants is: OFFENSIVELY Long Greatsword: two-handed, Slashing, 2d6, Reach Weapon, Can offend multiple targets in range at -1atk per additional target

[@Dramoklos]

basically a real life greatsword

[@snekkoheckko4466]

@@Dramoklos well yes like one IRLin DND that wouldn't happen because of balancing reasons, a fighter couldn't have all that at level 1 because that would be overpowered

[@s0m3b0dy1sb4ck]

I love how well you are proving that the DD distances are perfectly measured. You leaning your full body into the adjacent square would still give an opportunity attack, movement speed used or not

[@roguedm6523]

This is a great demonstration. Shad literally said that when fighting you stand 10ft away from your opponent. 5ft + 5ft is 10ft. Adjacent.

[@Bemused247]

As you mention at the start, a character “controls” a 5 foot square but their body isn’t necessarily centered. If the dummy backs to the far edge of the controlled space, then even the lunge doesn’t reach (setting aside the majority of the body entering the middle square issue). Two characters in a 5 foot square can also engage at approximately 10ft of actual distance between them. Better reflecting the danger zone you describe

[@ladyymir1478]

Shad's neighbor at 7:57 "This is getting out of hand. Now there are TWO of them!"

[@lordfawful2329]

This comment section needed more Star Wars.

[@danieldancza6171]

For the movement thing, you have to keep in mind that each round takes 6 seconds. so assuming moving 5 feet takes a little less than a second, moving 30 feet would take a little less than 6 seconds, making it reasonable, especially if you also make an attack during those 6 seconds.

[@bandi642]

8:42 basically what you are doing are lunging attacks, wich is basically a battle master maneuver that increases your reach by 5 feet.

[@muttamerican4863]

"Effective" range is where the arguments should be made.

[@Maninawig]

I agree. He left himself exposed to fail and for a counter attack... That said, I would argue only the counter if it was a sun blade. (As that is pure fire)

[@davehedric1543]

Yeah you could argue that when you strike outside of 5-ft square, you do half damage

[@MegaHuntress]

​@@davehedric1543 Or you can just give them a disadvantage on the attack, but only allow it if they don´t have a disadvantage in the first place. What he is describing is basically battlemaster´s lunge attack manoeuvre thought. So you could make the argument that a no-name nobody is not going to be able to attack effectively at that range...

[@iangee4846]

He also says, If you lean real hard. But his oponent just hast to lean a little bit to be out of his reach.

[@ast8177]

You can just move forwards and backwards 5 feets instead, saying you lunge doing so. Leaving you exposed on your retreat backwards, (aka. Taking the risk of an opertunity-attack) wich is not a big strach to argue that a lunge leaves you exposed for a moment after you strike. I really don't se his point

[@Mohandas.Gandhi]

No one: Shad: In chess your castle can move but that's not how castles actually work in real life

[@Iruka1991]

Medieval batman lied to me!

[@gokbay3057]

Technically they were originally chariots.

[@ddunfuh9239]

Its called a rook

[@Daspletophysis]

Perhaps we can think of rooks as siege towers?

[@tanzolimbu2982]

@@gokbay3057 If they are chariots, maybe Rook can move diagonally as well but in a Knight like manner, they could move 1 step side after maybe about 2, 3 or 4 steps forward but again that would make Rook an OP piece unless the other pieces are also tweaked to balance gameplay.

[@hawkticus_history_corner]

The easy solution with Lunging is that it should just be a type of attack option. Take a -2 AC get more Reach

[@androsofthewoods865]

"I can still strike the opponent after lunging a bit" - as he proceeds to gently poke the opponent

[@bradenpotts]

I once heard someone say the idea is when engaged you’re probably on opposite sides of your 5ft squares rather than in the direct middle

[@Voron_Aggrav]

Somewhere in the 10 feet box that contains you and your opponent, one back end to the other, which is a huge amount of space to manoeuvre in

[@cjonesnealdeal7817]

Moves whole body into next square except for back foot "see I didn't leave this square at all"

[@shadiversity]

11:22 Maybe watch the whole video before commenting. . .

[@lemeeadams4455]

@@shadiversity The point you’re trying to argue against here is saying “you are actually moving into the closer square to attack from that distance” and you say in response... nothing. Like, nothing

[@Fallenangel_85]

@@shadiversity What you call lunging is actually just movement in D&D and suddenly it all makes sense. And the position you are standing in is the foot that supports most of your body weight, for obvious reason. Also squares are very limiting, (and only used because they are easy to use) but you can totally think in circles around characters. I can recommend BG3 to get a better sense of actual ranges, since it's not build around squares. You are also saying yourself that it's much easier to defend against an attack if you are farther away, so it makes total sense that a proper attack with a high chance to hit has to be done from an effective range for offense. (your chance of hitting anyone with your funny long lunge move in HEMA is very low)

[@WerSonst95]

@@shadiversity imagine a battle map in dnd where there is a 5 feet cliff between you and your opponent (as in, a 5 feet square). Now I don't think your attack would work. You mentioned "use a crative solution", but I just can't see how, without falling to your death. In addition, I see multiple reasons for the 5 feet range: -You have to step (move(ment)) 5 feet into the enemys space to be able to hit -I think people often forget that action/movement don't happen in the exact order you announce them. When engaging and attacking, these things overlap, so at one point, when you start your attack, you might be 10 feet away and when your combat end, you don't stand around doing nothing, the enemy will try to counter, which your character will in turn defend from. (You kinda mentioned that) -Characters don't have to stand in the middle of their assigned squares, if the fighters stand on the edge each, they might be ~8 feet apart. -Consistent "5 feet" work better than adding "10 feet with exceptions" (like the cliff example) -Different races have differemt sizes (human vs halfling vs goliath) and not all will achieve the same distance. Again, keeping it simple for (most) races helps the flow of the game -Not all enemys are sword fighters. A spell caster or ranged fighter will instantly gain a considerable advantage for even these 5 feet difference. Beeing in really close range to a ranged enemy puts you in a clear advantage and is represented in that way in the game.

[@Desdemona-XI]

I would agree with the above but correct slightly. Lunges *are* commom and do hit often. But like any big strike. They take windup and wind-down. You have to back off of a lunge. Which isnt a difficukt thing but it does open you up to a counterattack. Wherein 5th edition dnd actually covers it by staing you can easily move attack and move back in the same turn. Even move attack move again and attack again if you are able to get multiple attacks off in a round. However leaving an enemy creature's reach, will allow them an attack of oppurtunity. Which is akin to: you lunge you hit their offhand shoulder. Good stuff. But then they swing down onto your shoulder while youre trying to pull back. In swordplay the swordsmen often advance and retreat as a pair to make the most of this. To parry and riposte back and forth. Ofcourse if you strike and instead of falling back push into their space its 'the danger zone' but it also means you can go for quicker attacks without exposing yourself as far. This is fair in that it burns ten feet of your movement because while the lunge is relatively quick. So is sprinting across ten feet. I would say as shad mentions that the rules likely consider the square the majority of your body is in as the square youre in. Because as an above comment remarks. If there isnt place to step in that space between you. A simple standing swing from a sword wont reach far enough to clear the distance. And this video does a bit to assume youre facing a swordsman who is leaning into the borders of his 'space' when far more often you're facing a monster and the person is likely leaning back and shifting around in that space attempting to dodge and parry. If you centre the bodies of both entities in their 5ft squares it looks like you can lunge forward to make the strike. But what if theyre on the back end? What if its a goblin and is a much smaller target able to skirt around your blows faster? Greatswords are interesting as unlike halberds its a lot harder to get under their reach. And certain forms and flows involve strikes with the blade not extended to minimize the shifting centre of gravity. I would say they were not given reach because of the variation in character sizes the maximum distance of a non-lunge and probably because of game balancing and how one might attack of oppurtunity at exiting ten feet might exceed the reach of the greatsword. That said. When dming if the greatsword were in the hands of someone suitably large. A tall human half orc or goliath. Id say they would be able to treat the greatsword has having a 5ft or 10ft reach as desired in the moment. But ofcourse that would make the weapon as useful as any polearm but with more damage. So for overall balance i can see why this was left out

[@DaughterOfLilith08]

I've been watching Jazza for years! I only just started getting into D&D this month, so stumbling across your channel is a pleasant surprise!

[@thegoat3291]

0:07that is something that is in the game rules, you moved to that square (extra movement) in order to have the range for hitting the enemy

[@Jazza]

Wanna try DnD? Why not COGENT?! :D

[@shadiversity]

Fancy seeing you here, and yes I agree completely ^_^

[@gustory1186]

​@@shadiversity Is it time for table top time?

[@pyeitme508]

@@shadiversity lol please make video about VTAC Tomahawks in the future?

[@xSniper1982]

Had Cogent bookmarked on my Browser for quite some time now. Love it, really interesting system, and it's helped with some discussions about how something in DnD can/could play out. Still trying to get my group to try a full test with using just the Cogent system though.

[@ZacoLV]

All we need now is an official hardcover SOTC TTRPG based on Cogent. MAKE A KICKSTARTER NOW SHAD

[@sorrowdusk5068]

I wanna point out two things 1: Each round is 6 seconds in lore and in reality, everyone does their actions almost simultaneously. 2: and movement is its own thing in 5E, so you're free to move as long you got the movement speed left, but moving out of someone's 5ft gives them an opportunity to attack.

[@DanateDMC]

3.5 also has simillar rules. So does Pathfinder 1e. 2e has different action economy but you still can just use your move to go in attack and leave the range. And 2e pathfinder doesn't give everyone opportunity attack.

[@Arbbal]

@@DanateDMC That's why in second edition they released the Combat and Tactics book, using that your attack reach was determined by your weapon size. Longer weapons could strike opponents that weren't in adjacent tiles. Have a pike? You can strike up to four squares away.

[@photosyntheticzee9915]

Disengage shouldn’t be an action, it should just cost a significant amount of movement, since you have to back up instead of being able to freely walk. But unless you’re grappled or too close for the range of an enemy’s longer weapon, it really is just stepping backwards. It’s not a big deal. Also: bring back Tumble :’(

[@bharl7226]

I disagree with point one, because characters’ turns actually play out in sequence with characters mostly doing all their actions before the next character even starts, except for the few kinds of reactions that some characters get.

[@DanateDMC]

@@bharl7226 You... Disagree. Have you read the rules in the book maybe?

[@khryssmith7590]

I'd argue that lightly touching someone just because you "can reach them" isn't a damaging hit and shouldn't count as a hit.

[@ashmoore9945]

You do understand, even though each player is going in Int order, everyone's actions take place in the same 6 seconds. Think of it this wayIt takes 10 full rounds for a min to pass. So if are at the top of the order and there are 15 other players taking their owns turns. After you have had your 10th turn and after the 16th player has gone only 1 minute has passed. I feel this is something fundamental about D&D and from watching your vid I'm not sure you do.

[@davidelfving5138]

That’s nonsense! If i run forward 30 feet in 6 secounds, my opponent should only be able to hit me at the end of those 6 secounds.

[@zedek_]

18:05 No, the ENTIRE round takes 6 seconds. It is not 6 seconds per turn, per actor, for every single actor during the round. You are NOT waiting 6 seconds for your opponent to take action. All of the events of the round are taking place within a 6 second span. 20:47 Same as the above. This is a core misunderstanding of what is happening.

[@omnitroph1501]

Technically that's what's happening, but the way it actually plays out has all of the turns occurring sequentially.

[@shorewall]

@@omnitroph1501 Yep, characters who act earlier in the round are reacted to by those who go later in the round.

[@veemie8148]

@@shorewall yeah initiative is a test of reflex as dnd combat is fast paced in setting

[@OneTrueNobody]

One thing to keep in mind is that all D&D rules are abstractions, meant more than anything to provide structure to the drama going on in the theater of the mind than to be seen as a literal representation of what's going on in the story. You don't magically gain the ability to take more lethal blows as you gain HP; your "HP" grows as you gain the skill needed to not take blows quite so directly when they hit. A high-HP fighter-class character is taking more nicks and scrapes than he used to and fewer arrow wounds that land square in their shoulder and make it hard to keep going, just as a general example. Take the "you must remain in your space" thing this video opens with. I don't think anyone would say that they're envisioning the characters remaining stationary on their turn once they're no longer moving, but rather they're remaining in the general space they stopped at to wait or take action in. When they attack or are attacked, their to-hit roll or their Armor Class represents EVERYTHING at their disposal that allows them to succeed at their attack or avoid taking damage, including their mobility. This is why Dexterity often factors into both, depending on class or equipment loadout. One of my characters is a high-dexterity rapier-wielding Battlemaster; her attack accuracy and Armor Class would absolutely account for her being fleet of foot, flitting in and out of range as needed. Characters would not simply be standing in the middle of their grid-paper square; think of the square as simply a loose guideline of how much passive movement range they have to work with while not taking a deliberate movement action. Games like Neverwinter Nights or Baldur's Gate 3 don't even really acknowledge that there are squares, because the rules themselves only ever mention distance in feet, so grid-squares are themselves just an easy way of keeping track of that distance by eye rather than being a necessary part of the rules. A character's inability to make a long thrust with their sword is less a matter of "YOU MUST STAY WITHIN YOUR SQUARE" and more a matter of that character not having enough movement range to make the thrusting attack on THAT six-second round. Having said this, there are certainly concessions made that sacrifice realism for rules convenience. D&D has established long ago that the majority of players don't really like the added complexity that results from rules attempting to account for everything, so things generally do stay within an easy-to-grasp game-board framework for simplicity's sake. Some playgroups may rely on that game-board simplicity more than others, while other game-groups let their imaginations overrule it more often than not. We all just make a mental allowance for the notion that the actual fight is more dynamic and complex than the rules make it seem, and that the rules are simply determining where the hits and misses occur within it and what the general flow of action looks like. Ultimately the "realism" of what is and isn't allowed in battle comes down to the individual group and the individual DM, because their mindsets are going to determine whether the characters attempt realistic combat maneuvers or Drizzt Do'Urden-tier flippy-dippy nonsense.

[@christinehoward415]

As a DM, I mostly use the DnD rules as guidelines. Allowing my players more room for creativity and freedom makes for a more enjoyable sessions, and that's what we're really here for.

[@theoverpreparerlamenters3r436]

"You need to be in the adjacent 5' large square, you're using melee" "This is an almost 8' long zwëihunder" "Still melee"

[@robertblume2951]

Great swords have 10ft reach

[@oblivious2052]

Does that mean you CAN attack both adjacent and non adjacent with the same weapon?

[@ephgm]

Zweihänder, you mean.

[@gokbay3057]

@@ephgm no, it is clearly 2 dogs.

[@Kartissa]

@@robertblume2951 Only in 4th Edition. In all other versions of D&D, reach weapons are universally polearms or chains/whips

[@xanosdarkpaw1]

Neighbor: "Mooom, the guy with the castle has put out a giant chessboard!"

[@rikospostmodernlife]

Hey, where's Perry?

[@superbeltman6197]

And there's two of him

[@troyterry5759]

Ain't gonna lie, if I were his neighbor, within a week I'd be his apprentice helping him set up these backyard scenarios...

[@user-qy5bj5qv6b]

WOW! Im really blown away by how much of a giga-geek you are, my dear sir! I’d LOVE to try out your rule set, especially if you really manage to fully integrate such awesome mechanics as character sheets and cross-referenced rules!

[@Martino2156]

What you are demonstrating is stepping in and out of engaged combat range, provoking opportunity attack after opportunity attack. Second, deep lunges like that demonstrate an opportunity attack. They are reserved for an opponent retreating from combat range like you were. Attempt a deep lunge like that against an opponent who is engaging with you will likely get you killed.

[@OgeXam]

There are feats like "Lunge" that allow you to attack at a +5 reach. So exactly what you are talking about. When trained in lunging you gain the +5 feet reach

[@LadyLexyStarwatcher]

Feats represent special training (at least for combat feats) right? The lunge feat represents training and practice at moving up, attacking, and moving back with out opening your self up to attack. You can emulate a lunge with out the feat: free action (five foot move), standard action (single attack), move action (movement - 5) Yes, that provokes attack of opportunity because you do move into their reach moving forward and potentially opening your self up to attack.

[@EliteGoosePlusOne]

I'm only 1 minute in and I have two comments: 1) this is hysterical 2) nonchalant one-handed back scabbard

[@dlahouss]

Yeah, Chad-Shad just puts the sword away, and it's only impressive if you know why he can't do that.

[@Dragon_Lair]

@@dlahouss He designed that back scabbard personally and explained its functions and how it works, and how you can sheathe a sword with his design for a back scabbard that is as effective as one at the waist. It's all in another video, if you haven't seen that one.

[@dlahouss]

@@Dragon_Lair I have. That's where he taught me how back scabbards are impossible... Unless you do this thing that there are no historical examples of.

[@bswtsp21]

@@dlahouss but he did it. Thus there is now a historical example of it. It happened in the past, afterall. Besides, he's not really going off to war with it, he's using it mostly for personal purposes, and to look kinda cool. Thus, not impossible.

[@dlahouss]

@@bswtsp21 kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y3mZZoWidtCfesU I understand it's not impossible. My statement is based on: - If all you knew was modern representations, you would think everyone wore back scabbards - I followed Shad going from "people didn't do this" to "what would it take" to "I'm totally going to do this" resulting in Shad looking cool from a modern perspective, since he solved the issues that prevent one from doing this. But my understanding remains that there are no examples of people doing a scabbard this way before, oh say... 1900 AD. I'm a lay-person, maybe there are, I'd be interested to learn otherwise.

[@rubyblooddemonking]

So I think personally, the reason why they don't do what you say in Dungeons & Dragons is the standardization of races, for example a goblin or a half giant obviously would be picked less or more cause they would literally only be able to reach five feet max in the goblins case and the half giant could lunge 25 feet with a spear. So they have to standardize to keep things fair

[@Physithor]

also people hate to have more rules than nessesary. Imagine each race had to at reach depenend on size, because if you had a dwarf and a goblin of the same height, the goblin would have more range (going by short limbed dwarf). And if we start that, why not throw the fields away, since they don't matter anymore (His lunge would not always be able to reach a goblin in the "10 feet away" square)

[@td5603]

Something that I want to point out is that 6 seconds is a turn , not a round

[@ThePigeon5734]

"When you just face off against opponents, being ready to offend each other..." YOUR MOTHER WAS A HAMSTER, AND YOUR FATHER SMELT OF ELDERBERRIES.

[@jenumba]

How appropriate. You fight like a cow.

[@atraxian5881]

fetchez la vache ... How much damage would a catapulted cow do anyway?

[@ThePigeon5734]

@@atraxian5881 depends on what you're aiming at. Maybe that can be Shad's next video...

[@darkrite9000]

You used vicious mockery, and dealt max damage.

[@nullpoint3346]

Ah, the battle of the bards

[@zeanomourph1]

This video has real "when you tell your dog to stay outside so he stands in the doorway with 1 foot still outside" vibes.

[@ancapftw9113]

Shad's Mom: "you're going to sit in that chair until you finish your veggies!" Shad: *carries chair with him, holding it to his butt, as he goes to play Nintendo*

[@ashtongiertz8728]

Technically you could be fighting from a little less than 10 feet away, assuming both yourself and your opponent are at the furthest distance from one another within their 5 foot squares.

[@willdriver7542]

I'm so glad Cogent came up. Shad I have been using Cogent off and on for a few years now and love it. I also use parts of it in DnD 5e as well.

[@adverseflower9551]

Well now I know what the Battle Master’s ‘Lunge’ maneuver looks like.

[@NoGuardGaming]

Practically I agree. Personally I like the Runesmith's version more.

[@tapiopuranen88]

Distance really should be measured between centers of mass, not back feet.

[@devin5201]

Omg, you made me realize Shad is using that dumb technicality of that image of a cat with one paw on the counter as if saying ''I'm not on the counter, my paw is.'' I'll try to look for it, see if I can link it brb.

[@PalpatineGaming]

Apologies for america being odd, I dont like our measurement system either. Its so confusing

[@lotoreo]

@01000110 ! no, I think being able to lunge and retreat before you get attacked back is very realistic actually. Also the measuring from the back foot makes a lot of sense, because that's the position from which you attack and the position that you return to once you're finished attacking. You're only moving your body for a split second to be able to bridge the distance, you don't linger there.

[@someguycalledgoober155]

@01000110 ! How long of sticks are we talking about here?

[@bharl7226]

@@lotoreo I disagree as well, it’s not just a split second and the opponent can attack back/move their weapon far quicker than you can move your whole body back out of reach, and they can move their body to lunge back at you (if they need to to reach you fast enough) just as fast as you can retreat your own lunge. The math just doesn’t work in favor of the initial lunger being too fast to hit back.

[@Adeptus221]

Shad, as a writer starting their first fantasy in what will hopefully be a series one day, your videos have become an invaluable resource. Thank you for putting in the effort to make these, with humor, excellent explanations, and reasoning. Keep up the good work! 🤌✨✨✨✨

[@ericbright1742]

"Why do people take up 5 foot squares in D&D?" "Those are bold words for someone in stabbing range!"

[@markopehkonen1048]

What if the target also took a step backwards while still keeping one leg on the square to evade you lunge?

[@roydm143]

This is called 5tf step. (v3.5)

[@kronos661]

Basic armor class + agility. It covers dodge, step back and so on.

[@roydm143]

@@kronos661 Not if he gets out of reach (it does in other cases).

[@kronos661]

@@roydm143 Mechanicaly lounging attack is, as Shad said, an action where you step on adjecent square/hexagon while at the same time still standing on the square/hexagon you started on with a single leg to return there in case you dont hit. You know it. We use map and rules as simple as possible so if you keep your leg on a square, as Marko said, while dodging it is just AC with agility/dodge, whatever other suitable modifiers that make enemy just not hit. If you do not intend to go back after dodging (btw, reduction of agility bonus to AC in confined area or in the crowd would be nice thing if we are going all in on that) that is how it would go mechanically in my opinion: 1. Enemy misses target AC i mentioned, if he hits the AC with your armor and shield bonus you were hit but remained unharmed. 2. you disengage/do 5ft step in your turn If he wishes to stay in that adjacent square after attacking do charge or just go in to engage.

[@ashtongiertz8728]

You don't even need to do that. Just back away 2.5 feet (the furthest edge of your square). He'll only be able to hit you if your close to the edge facing him.

[@daaaah_whoosh]

"I haven't moved out of this square" he says as he puts all of his weight on the foot that has indeed moved out of the square. A lunge is just moving to the adjacent square, leaving your toe behind doesn't change anything. And yes, being 5ft away from your opponent is dangerous, that's why swordsmanship is so concerned with self-defense. You have to get into striking range in order to strike, that's how it works. The only reason players don't back off after every hit is because of opportunity attacks.

[@tylercoon1791]

Unless you got the Mobility feat, or are a swashbuckler...then it’s hit and run city

[@templar501]

"Look my foot doesnt leave the square" Shad forgets he has two feet.

[@elowenminer7748]

look i can gently poke him if he doesn't move while showcasing my attack for way too long by tripping and falling over

[@tylercoon1791]

Shad basically saying ‘my one foot didn’t move, so therefore I didn’t use any movement’ gave off some strong ‘nuh-uh! I’m still on base’ vibes

[@mech-pilotcadet5896]

I'm pretty sure movement in dnd is defined as moving the entire body into another 5ft square

[@Fibonochos]

Ok, quick homebrew for a lunge: when you take the action attack action with a weapon that isn't a dagger you are proficient with you can use you bonus action to extend the range of your melee weapon by 5ft, however afterwards you can't use any movement you may have left.

[@Fibonochos]

Or just make a feat that let's you do this if you want it to be more restricted

[@Fibonochos]

I would also have you roll for parrying

[@IrvingIV]

@Shadiversity I would make you perform the attack with either disadvantage or an opposed acrobatics check due to the enemy seeing such a lunge coming.

[@DarthTellor]

Ye, I get it but you are *LITERALLY MOVING* to the adjacent square.

[@weebwhacker6217]

Opportunity attack

[@rotothedragonlord7198]

I’d say that he’s not close enough to the center of the square to be counted but square combat is always going to be iffy when it comes to specifics

[@achilles8804]

@@rotothedragonlord7198 do be fair, if he’s allowed to lunge forward like that to hit the target why can’t the target lunge to hit him as he’s moving back? Or as translated into D&D terms, Shad moved into the 5ft square adjacent to the target, attacked, and moved back provoking an opportunity attack from the target

[@chexwarior]

@@achilles8804 and from the other enemy in the square on his other side.

[@epiclink11]

@@rotothedragonlord7198 his full body weight and center of gravity is closer to the adjacent square center than the one he started with. Keeping one foot dangling over the line behind you means nothing and is clearly only happening in order to get around the rule. In real life no one would do that because it would hinder the quality of the strike

[@Maddog3060]

Aha, now we see Shad's true endgame: his desire to use his celebrity to get tabletop RPGs to change their combat systems! We're on to you, Mr Versity! ;p EDIT: Man I was joking, but he really is. XD GG Shad, I look forward to reading the rules of your new system.

[@KickyFut]

I think he was bringing up this topic because it's related to his game, sure! He freely admits it. I thought it was impressive how he was able to mention his book, his shirt/pants, his armor's company, his upcoming game, AND of course his sponsor!😁

[@ICaImI]

@@KickyFut well he wants to build castles after all

[@TheOnlyToblin]

Sadly Shad, like most people, are woefully unaware of the indie TTRPG scene. He says "most rpgs" have this issue, which is wrong. There are uncountable amounts of games out there doing combat infinitely better than DND does. I'm stoked he's making his own though. As a fellow game designer, I'm always overjoyed to see other people's work, no matter if I like the product or not.

[@KickyFut]

@@TheOnlyToblin yeah, I think he's mistaken into thinking D&D is even a battle/fighting TTRPG, which it is not...

[@Zaroth66]

Something to clarify, the rolls to attack are you going after an opening in a combat, not simply only an attack. people aren't standing still taking turns stabbing each other, they're dancing around in their "ten foot" space..it's why archers have a negative to hit those in melee, cuz they're really moving around

[@DanielMWJ]

It amuses me that Shad's two issues are 1) just move up 5 feet, attack, then back 5 feet and 2) reinventing those ancient Chainmail combat rules!

[@Achillez098]

Bandit: "Attack!!!" Me: "You can't do that" Bandit: "Why not?" Me: "It's not your turn yet..."

[@definitelynotyos]

I guess this comment needs no replies

[@keionnoisseur6403]

@@definitelynotyos We're still waiting for our turns

[@UndeadGhostGirl]

@Chaz Hagen i got a 1 can i roll again?

[@valkyrieace5768]

Surprise round?

[@Charles-xw2wy]

I'm no combat expert, but like when mythbusters did the "zombie" episode, there is a difference between tickling an opponent and killing one. The point of 5ft square or even hexes is to give a simplified representation. Their system is far from infallible, like abilities / spells with 1ft increments :/

[@malcolmthorne9779]

Well, it's in feet for starters. Starting off wrong right there. ;P

[@snekkoheckko4466]

@@malcolmthorne9779 the 5ft per square can easily be traded out for metric measurements

[@ishill85]

@@snekkoheckko4466 and honestly, you could make the argument from this episode that a slightly bigger,, like 2 meters say, square might be more realistic. I think if we tracked his center mass his lunges could have been reinterpretted as starting from one side of a square and reaching to the other, rather than starting in the center of one and dipping across the edge of another during an attack.

[@Riceball01]

I was going to point this out myself. While Shad could physically lunge and hit an opponent 10 feet away wit ha short(ish) sword or 15 - 20 with a pole weapon, that's all he was soing though, hitting the target and with little impact at that too. So he talks about realism in terms of reach but at the same time ignores the fact that each hit at the extreme limits of his reach barely touches the target and would be lucky to go through moderately heavy clothing, don't mention armor.

[@GonzoTehGreat]

@@malcolmthorne9779 There's nothing wrong with using feet and inches in a medieval inspired fantasy setting. If 5ft squares are too small to be realistic then switch to yards and make them 6ft (2 yards) indoors and 9ft (3 yards) outside, instead.

[@battlefieldcustoms873]

7:59 “Shad-o Clone Jutsu?” I’ll see myself out

[@thomasmclake]

to add some input the 5-foot square rule is more of a (you can be anywhere within this) instead of dead center, so I think the idea is that for strikes that are pre-bind each opponent is at the furthest side of their respective square (giving about a 7 ft. space between the two opponents)

[@leonielson7138]

I've never heard that each person's turn took 6 seconds - the round, starting with the person who rolled the highest and ending with the person who rolled the lowest, takes 6 seconds, not the individual turns.

[@XblacklightZ]

In 5th edition 1 round is 6 sec. Everyone acts and it is narrated as happening all at the same time

[@CrownRock1]

Every turn happens simultaneously, in game time. In real time, we have to go one at a time to keep track of everything. So one turn and one round both take six seconds

[@delwynmarcoux1523]

that's what I thought too and that is the idea. but say you want to attack a Quickling standing 30ft away. If you roll higher initiative you will be able to attack it within the 6 seconds, before it has a chance to run away. Note: the Quickling has a speed of 120 ft. So if it was going to dash during its turn it could move 8x faster than you could (not dashing cause you want to attack). If your turns were simultaneous, the Quickling would easily have escaped, even if it only noticed you approaching when you were 10 ft away. So given this example DnD isn't actually simultaneous as it says it is. So yeah he messed up, the round is always 6 seconds no matter how many combattants. But his point still stands.

[@delwynmarcoux1523]

@@XblacklightZ it doesn't tho, happen all at the same time that is. check out my comment on this thread to see an example illustrating this :D

[@delwynmarcoux1523]

@@CrownRock1 that is what the rulebook says yeah, but check out my comment on this thread that gives a little thought experiment into the validity of this :)

[@monglong2485]

Alright but hear me out When you're in the heat of it, trading blows, against someone in heavy armor and holding a shield, when you yourself are also heavily armored and holding a shield, you're going to be within 5-7 feet away from eachother while you're making or taking blows. You're both attacking and defending 3 times a round and with how far you overextend yourself, you're going to be pulled into the closer square.

[@jadedsilverlining9427]

The way my dm explained it was that the whole round is in six seconds and that all the actions are technically happening simultaneously

[@augusttsugua2195]

Where is the COGENT update, shad?

[@Archimedes.5000]

"Can you fight in 5ft square?" Thunbnail: **picture of 10ft circle**

[@nekopunchi9793]

All those squares make a circle?

[@Archimedes.5000]

@@nekopunchi9793 I don't think this is how sqares and circles work

[@yshedeau123]

That is actually a 15 foot circle. Which is your effective melee range in D&D

[@Archimedes.5000]

@@yshedeau123 that would make more sense, but still the diagonal distance is longer than that

[@twanbijpost9050]

@@nekopunchi9793 a literal gallon

[@duff325]

As a great man always said “context” When you talk about what you *can* do in dnd you must considere the word * effectively * When the system says you can’t hit 10feat away it does not says it is absolutely impossible. It instead says that most of classes would not be able to do it in a effective manner. Lounges are actually not a piece of cake to master. One thing is to touch an enemy 10 feat away, other is to pull that out in a way that would effectively hurt the opponent. A pour technic could easily take to a bad edge directing or a to weak strike. In the other hand, battlemasters (fighter subclasse) can have a maneuver called “lounge” that does exactly that. He would be a martial artist and could pull that off consistently. One more interesting point about it is that when you made some lounges, your feat work was a bit off and retreating from that attack would put you in danger. Let’s remind Dnd rules: you must walk 5 feat, strike and get back 5feat if you what to do that lounge of yours. That would imply in a opportunity attack to your opponent, which would make sense considering what a pointed out about your foot work. About the distance between player and enemy, you don’t have to think they are exactly in the middle of the square. I always describe it as if they are going back and forth inside the square. I believe the rules says that 2 people can’t be at the same time in a 5feat square because of such movement inside. If you take that motion in consideration, it would be logical to describe the two contenders in the further edges of their own squares, what would give nearly 10 feat distance. As a HEMA student, I totally agreed that 5 feat is not a preferable distance to fight. Um last thing. Despite of the fact I disagree with you, you gave me some ideias of homebrew rules to my games. Some time ago I rework the entire table of weapons so they could make them more like their historical counterparts. I’m thinking of add a “lounger” attribute so some big weapons, that are not long enough to have “reach” Lounger : you may attack 10 feat away, but with disadvantage. Thank you Shad! Really love you videos, especially those that mix fantasy and history. Keep up the good work and a shout-out from São Paulo - Brasil!!

[@SybilantSquid]

I'm assuming you meant lunge instead of lounge. Although, the mental images of a battlemaster fighter engaging in a lounge based fighting style are hilarious.

[@chromarush1749]

All 5e characters are basically suoermen though due to the high power level. That's why he said something you could do, and these people are likely much more avle to do so.

[@ouzoloves]

Consider adding the requirement for 10ft of movement to perform a lunge and I think it is quite viable for home brew rules.

[@Nir7r0us0xide]

The word is "lunge." "Lounge" is what I do on my couch

[@Robert399]

Bollocks

[@nerdyvariety3105]

Great video. Entertaining, informative, and I am getting in on cogent right now

[@devilsadvocate6381]

Okay my first problem off the bat with this is that you are assuming that the opponent is just going to stay still in their square while you over extend yourself into the adjacent square. All they'd have to do is take a step back (not even leaving their "space") and you have lost your effective range. I have always viewed the 5ft space as a malleable area that you are constantly skirting around not always standing around the centre. There's nothing stopping you from sticking to the back edge of your square while the enemy keeps to the back of theirs, effectively creating that 10ft space without retreating to another square. I imagine it would be very difficult for you to hit your target if you didn't step into that other square and the opponent stayed to the back of theirs. TLDR; the rules exist to cover a broad range of variables and not to account for every nitpicky detail. They are malleable concepts that can easily be aligned to fit the logic of the situation

[@simpslayer69yt59]

It's all fun and games until the DM uses an ancient red dragon

[@pyeitme508]

Or some guy with guns fxxxing around

[@afinoxi]

_"You think you can defeat me in my own realm ?"_

[@zaleost]

Once as DM the rest of the players had the nerve to try and run away from a story moment I had put a lot of effort in to writing for them. So I grabbed a very mean looking monster from the box and placed it directly in their path. Turns out it was a level 25 pit fiend (they were barely level 5...)

[@davidn5389]

That’s all fun and games until the flying paladin drops all his divine smites on it

[@Niall487]

Why?

[@poilboiler]

"I lean really hard to reach," "Your opponent leans really hard out of reach."

[@shadiversity]

This would only be determined by the result of the rolls, the point is that it's possible to attempt.

[@oriongarnar-wortzel2277]

The way I have ruled is you can make that lunge but with disadvantage on the attack if you dont have battle master or a feat that gives you a lunge

[@ShadowDragon8685]

@@shadiversity Sure, but you haven't weighed in at all on what penalty TO THAT ROLL you should be taking to your attack roll attempting to make a Reach attack with a bastard sword. If you go to the trouble of setting up five-foot masking tape squares and showing me you can make a lunge attack into a non-adjacent square with a bastard sword, I'll let you try it - but I'm going to assign a commensurate penalty. In this case, I think -10, as your attack barely clips into his square; standing in the adjacent square at the edge and swinging your fist would have had more reach into his square than your bastard sword lunge. He has plenty of opening and room to evade that strike. Of course, being the generous sort, I'd also float the possibility of taking feats to specifically master lunging-without-moving-a-square and reduce that penalty.

[@fluffball6142]

@@shadiversity maybe if you made the attack, but, -5 chance to hit. Also give opponent advantage on you. Without being a properly trained swordsman that position you put yourself in looked extremely risky and open. Which is why it required the feat. Take into account the opponent is sword fighting at the same time as you, what would realistically happen is They would push your sword away And attack you in your unbalanced position

[@claygardiner7543]

Sure it's possible. Assuming your opponent is a static training dummy. Heh...this all brings to mind those horrid katana training vids Metatron ranted on, that I watched again this evening. I'd still pay good money (if I had any, that is) to see Shad demonstrate a realistic Eldritch Blast.

[@baku2575]

18:47 sir do you know what an attack of opportunity is

[@Soard36]

Yo shad, can you link me the video where the combat role is explained? i scouted tabletop time but couldn find it, im really interested in that mechanic

[@alexhofeldt3056]

It's funny we actually have a house rule that lets you us the lunge action, It lets you add 5ft to your attack with a minus 2 attack modifier and the attack must be performed through an empty square, unlike just having reach that can be used over a friendly.

[@haysdixon6227]

this feels like a good way to run this. it adds realism with more reach, but keeps it balanced with the most realistic disadvantage (slightly less stable than not lunging)

[@keosniper]

My table has this same rule but different. You half your attack (vs ac) and damage modifiers, as lunging is using the very tip of the weapon and you can't get the full power of a strike the way the weapon is intended to be used.

[@thecantankerouspancake9464]

But couldn’t that slightly reduce the uniqueness of the fighter battle masters lunge attack as every player can now do it and your just expending a superiority dice for more damage and not the novelty that comes with making a unique weapon attack?

[@andrewmattox1233]

@@thecantankerouspancake9464, yes. But not everyone cares about novelty or class purity. I've seen some games that are more about the skills/play rather than arbitrary class designations. To put it simply, people can do (or at least attempt to do) a lot of different things. But the results may vary. A game mechanic that tells me I can't do something, even though I could clearly attempt to do, is irritating. I personally think that it is better to let people attempt to do things (at some appropriate disadvantage) than to just say, No. Example: Anyone can attempt to grapple... But an MMA fighter will do it in a way that delivers desirable results more often.

[@jezzuh9120]

That's just exactly a feat from Pathfinder

[@davisharper6704]

In public places: *Keep 6 feet apart due to social distancing* DnD: "Hey, let me have some of that action in the rules!"

[@sky0kast0]

Oh it's a good bit before covid Kappa

[@kimarna]

Rebrand social distancing as staying out of melêe range lol

[@NinjaSquid0208]

My idea for the way this works is you should have a lunge movement you can do that perhaps allows you to hit an extra 5 feet but halfs your move speed as a balance

[@hieijangashi]

"I would call a step when you actually step" Shad 11/14/2020. Wise words to live by.