How Sally's True Identity Changes EVERYTHING in The Nightmare Before Christmas (Disney)

[@BlackShadowUchiha]

I think the difference between the flower petals wilting and the four leaf clover is not a continuity error but the difference between something be taken from the realm and something being willing given to leave the realm

[@bitterflywing]

Like sally

[@thomasparsons4871]

It’s kind of a reference to Sally’s visions from the movie. A flower she picked showed her a vision that foretold that Jack’s mission would end in flames. The petals wilted because the union of Jack and Sally wasn’t doing well. The clover foretells of luck and success.

[@NoArtisticLimitation]

I thought the difference was the luck factor, but I guess that works?

[@TinySamaa]

I was thinking since the leperchaun was the one being who was awake in that world and knew sooo much, i would assume he's some kind of ancient being of sorts himself and has his own magic. When he give her the clover, its his own magic that imbues the clover and therefore allows her to leave with it.

[@Shiro-Nethermore]

i would think its do to every thing in valentines day being fleeting and surface level. mean while i know people who keep a clover together for years

[@Bluepriest18]

So she's the princess of dreams and the queen of fear. She's the Lady of Nightmares then.

[@starlightoverlordofninjago6172]

..... you have a point-

[@MayalaGray-pu2kd]

I agree fully!!

[@diamondly6250]

shes not a princess though...

[@alachedelmictlan648]

Now that you phrase it like that, it kind of sounds like Persephone's myth. The myth has changed over the centuries, even before the greeks, and there were many variations of it, so this specific outcome of a dude kidnapping a kid so she is like his daughter (but he is unable to act as a father) could, maybe, have been a story told during some ancient time.

[@kalvin187douglas]

Oh wow

[@Panda_Roll]

"I am not the thing you feared." Subtle but I REALLY like it. He's saying I am not death, I am sleep, death's little brother.

[@hannah.kate.]

Thinking of sleep as death’s little brother is oddly comforting when thinking about death… that’s a cool way to put it 😂

[@SymbioteMullet]

​@@hannah.kate.In greek myth, it's completely a thing. Thanatos (death) and Hypnos (sleep). I have no idea which one is older, though. Both are children of Nyx, the night.

[@angelob2383]

As the words of the great Nas “I never sleep, cause sleep is the cousin of death”

[@spaceracer23]

In fairness to Jack, how long do any of us think we'd last in Valentine Town?

[@lazyperfectionist3978]

especially those of us more romance repulsed, I'd stay long enough for a takeaway coffee before absolutely making a run for it back to the door

[@JackHallowLantern]

I'm not particularly romantic to begin with, but any mortal would crumble under the weight of all the sweets in Valentine Town. I think all of the food there is sugary. You'd get so many cavities...and type 2 diabetes...and scurvy.

[@lavendernyx6488]

Wait.. what happened to Jack??

[@thedukeofchutney468]

Agreed! Plus as others have mentioned all of their foods are sugary candy, which is nice for maybe an hour, I’ll take Thanksgiving turkey and stuffing or 4th of July BBQ and burgers instead thank you very much.

[@OrangeFruitStand]

@@lazyperfectionist3978 my asexual nightmare

[@Omnywrench]

I had a headcanon that when Dr. Finklestein said "I made you with my own hands", he was being literal, I.E. he cut off his own hands to make Sally, and he wears prosthetic hands under his gloves. He's certainly no stranger to using bits of himself to build his creations.

[@localanalysts6839]

It would give him a real reason to say “i made you, you’re a part of me” with certainty indeed lol

[@tayloranderson7547]

For real life that is so messed up

[@griffingirl5805]

I kean that does e3xplain why in the movie her hands don't always look like they fit her

[@kalvin187douglas]

Oh wow

[@danicegewiss862]

Birthday town should be interesting.

[@-yamyam-890]

I believe the reason why Halloween town is so isolated is because it's different. All the other holidays are bright and full of joy. While mainly Halloween is a very dark and scary time.

[@lolafierling2154]

This just proves how subjective everything is. To the inhabitants of holloween town dark and scary IS full of joy 😂

[@Naadeneo]

I bet the other holidays look down on Halloween so they don't get other door visitors

[@queenmedesa]

True romanticism was about death and tragedy, so Valentine's town should have been a dark place too !

[@syo5416]

I didn't know there was a new book! The plotwist of Sally's origins really surprised me! The fact that she is a ragdoll never made me question Dr.Finkelstein's words of her creation. I hope they release another book in the future about the other old realms, would like to know what worlds are behind those doors.

[@anthonymarziano9984]

I am sure you were delighted by her reading.

[@Private-Potato]

It would be cool if they found the Samhain door. And tried to learn about the connection between Samhain and Halloween

[@tayloranderson7547]

For real life

[@maggieavilla1336]

I wish the author had him take her corpse to reanimate instead. It makes more sense storywise, and would explain better him making her and her memory loss. Plus it's much more his MO

[@alachedelmictlan648]

There could be mexican traditions, the door for el día de muertos might also be more ancient than the Halloween town, since the origins come from the mexicas and the version we have today has been adapted from their christian perspective (moving the day, changing the skulls to a treat with skull shape, having bread that resemble a cross of bones over it, pink sugar or toping to mimic blood). We also have El día de la virgen (de Guadalupe) on December 12th. This virgin is one that, according to myth, appeared on a small hill (un cerro) to a devoted San Juan (or I think that was his name) and ordered a church in her name, and also appeared in the church with the priest because he wasn't believing the story lmfao. La virgen de Guadalupe is, actually, an adaptation to the goddess Tonantzin to convert the peopple in, during that time, Nueva España, today México, to christianity. And it worked, the religion has adapted so organically that the religion in here is nowhere near the same as in any other part of the world, combining ancient rituals with catholic beliefs. But this last part is just a guess tbh, maybe some other country has also adapted so organically their beliefs to christianity. But watching the result of this firsthand and knowing the background of it is quite fascinating, to say the least.

[@DustyB]

This is probably the closest thing we’re getting to a Nightmare before Christmas sequel

[@SergioLeonardoCornejo]

There were video games. Both sequel and prequel.

[@TheMeloettaful]

Omg this would have made the perfect sequel for NBC 😆! But like you said this is probably the closest thing we will get for a sequel.

[@LilLadyAy]

They were planning a sequel but chose to do this instead, so technically it is, hopefully it gets adapted. The ps2 game is an official sequel, I will have to find a play through of it because I remember it being too difficult.😅

[@joshuatewolde1837]

Ever since we saw hocus-pocus the sequel book and Disney+ Sequel

[@onemoreweirdo207]

Thankfully. No need to ruin a perfectly good movie with what will most likely be a bad sequel.

[@DancingAngelOfSpira]

I always thought that Sally was a murder victim who was stitched back together and reanimated by Dr Finklestein, so her backstory in this book was a huge shift for me.

[@Emily-ye1qy]

shes full of stuffing though which you can see when she jumps from the tower and has to sew herself back together... which brings up that this book changes her insides from stuffing to leaves...

[@DancingAngelOfSpira]

@@Emily-ye1qy Yes? I remember that scene. Stuffing is commonly used in taxidermy. Dr Finklestein is based on Dr Frankenstein, who is famous for stitching together corpses and reanimating them. There's also the deathly blue pallor to her skin (similar to The Corpse Bride), rough dismemberment marks all over her body, autopsy-like stitching across her chest, and her Glasgow smile. There's a distinct lack of stitching in places where stitching would be if she were based on a ragdoll. Surely you can see why I thought she was a murder victim?

[@Emily-ye1qy]

@@DancingAngelOfSpira my mind is blown

[@BILLCIPHER8]

Personally. I really like this book. I enjoyed reading it. But I don't see this book as canon. I also saw/see sally as a dismemberment victim sewn back together by doctor finkelstein, and I still do see her like that. Idk. Her being kidnapped from her real parents that are from another door _is_ interesting. But also felt like a fanfic.

[@tayloranderson7547]

So her backstory in his book was a huge shift for me.

[@MysticHydra]

Please keep in mind this was made by a different author. Disney might make it cannon, but it's not what the original creator had in mind while making the original movie

[@nuclearcatbaby1131]

They should have asked Danny Elfman to write it. He came up with a better idea for Thanksgiving Town.

[@azureneon]

@@nuclearcatbaby1131 I think you mean Tim Burton. Danny Elfman just did the music. The story was written by Tim Burton originally.

[@nuclearcatbaby1131]

@@azureneon Danny wrote the lyrics too you know. And if you compare the lyrics to Tim’s poem it’s clear that Danny added a lot in particular to the Jack character who he made more like him. Danny’s version of Jack is more driven by intellectual curiosity and in the songs I think I can even detect a hint of satire. It’s just too intelligent to be all Tim’s idea.

[@phantom-ri2tg]

It was made by a different author but according to some comments the decision for her parents to be someone else was from the original author.

[@diamondly6250]

he wont work with disney anymore

[@APenguinsLullaby]

It feels a little fan-fictiony even though it's canon. I like Sally going off on her own adventure between world (definitely a character that needed more time in the spotlight), but it also feels like it doesn't explore how she overcame her anxieties of becoming the pumpkin queen. Her parents being from a different world feels the most like fan fiction, almost making her seem like some kind of chosen one rather than something that stood up, learnt how to overcome her worries, and saved the worlds whilst still being a normal person kinda reducing her agency. I also loath the ending "Oh I was just tired" like shut your insomniac ass up; you were being a dick and you deserve consequences for you actions. I do love the idea of there being so many trees though, there is a hell of a lot just screaming to be explored there.

[@hrb9679]

It absolutely reads like a fanfiction. Imo of someone who doesn't understand the soul of the characters. Like, seriously? The spunky ragdoll who took every opportunity to escape Dr. Finklestien and who took charge and tried to help when she saw things headed for disaster would turn around and want to lock her and Jack up in their house? That doesn't sound like her at all. I never got the impression the Halloween town residents would have it in them to be that nasty. And not just because they would be afraid of offending Jack. They're just, as their town song says, "not mean". And their edit of Sally's backstory. They went miles out of their way to demonize Dr. Finklestien, didn't they? All for why? Why does a RAGDOLL need normal parents? What's wrong with Finklestien making her and being an overprotective/overcontrolling parent/creator? I refuse to accept this book as canon. I don't care who signed off on it.

[@ChestersonJack]

I mean to be fair, just because it’s “canon” doesn’t mean it was always the intention. Did the author work on the story for the movie? I mean hell, was Finkelstein even in Burton’s Poem? One could consider this a retcon, or comic book logic and call it a different version.

[@itscloudstrife]

😭😭LMAO

[@CatKittyCutie]

From my understanding Tim Burton was the creator and sense he doesn’t work with Disney anymore I believe, I feel like this def. would make this book fan fiction at this point because it’s not by the original creator? I could be wrong but that’s my assumption.

[@BNK2442]

The trees were one of the most interesting parts of the film.

[@thegayghost872]

I wonder if there’s a separate grove for non-American holidays, like Dia de Los Muertos or Bastille Day

[@enderborn6860]

toothfairy, old winter, father time are door realm rulers i suppose so thoese are a given its holiday doors and other speecial doors the possibilities of every single holiday having its own door is very possible hell a crossover with the Guardians could happen Skelinton and Frost hanging out

[@JenniferSnaps]

In Dia de muertos realm Dead man's party by Oingo boingo plays 24/7

[@searchingfororion]

@@JenniferSnaps Such an underrated comment. It's brilliant.

[@bruna7534]

Festa junina door with regional areas

[@bruna7534]

Wait, but what about tanabata? I mean, Orihime and Hikoboshi can just hang out everyday

[@choppy_citty]

As a kid I always thought it was uncanny she was stuffed with leaves after she threw herself from the window, later down the line I thought it was for censorship purposes, but this is really clever!! Also, making the doctor fall asleep with her tea so she could sneak away is such a clever continuity point. Just because she was taken away doesnt mean she's separated from her roots

[@maggieavilla1336]

I thought it was both leaves and stuffing

[@tayloranderson7547]

For real life

[@queenoffrance6397]

They should have made the inhabitants of Thanksgiving town scarecrows.

[@Lemuel928]

Ah yes,the Realm of Oz.

[@queenoffrance6397]

@@Lemuel928 Corn fields.

[@nuclearcatbaby1131]

Danny Elfman came up with an idea where they have a turkey mayor or something who dies every year

[@Lemuel928]

Oof..I better be forgiven for eating too many grilled turkey burgers.

[@BalderOdinson]

It's a good idea, and might have been considered. But it interferes with the Sally story. Stuffed anthropomorphic figures and all.

[@tomboyangel78]

I'll have to look for that book. It sounds like a great read. Also, it adds to Finklestein's controlling/abusive behavior towards Sally. He didn't just want her locked away because of his "I oWn YoU" mindset, he didn't want to risk her discovering the truth. Theory: He used the Forgetful potion on the whole town, so no one would know where Sally originally came from. Edit: Read the book. It was incredible ^^

[@bananabell318]

Maybe that could also be why Halloween town has very little knowledge of the other realms

[@liamr3362]

You can find the book at walmart, I have seen it there several times

[@nuclearcatbaby1131]

It would have been better if they used Danny Elfman’s idea for Thanksgiving Town

[@tayloranderson7547]

From real life you don't Charlie's original Sally original Lee came from original we came from

[@sephirothcrescent5768]

@@nuclearcatbaby1131 Well i think a mayor being a Turkey and somehow getting replaced by another Turkey each year seemed a lil dark for Disney i guess cus we all know what that replacing meant...And it probs leads to the townfolk of thanksgiving land probably eating their mayor.

[@13thMaiden]

I like all the points you made, and I agree about alot of the plot holes bothering me. The build up was great, but after the discovery of her parents and homeland it got...kinda weird I guess? Sally being from a Dream Land makes sense considering ragdolls are kinda an odd addition to Halloween, ragdolls aren't really thought of as scary but rather comforts and toys (maybe voodoo or porcelain dolls but not just a straight up ragdoll). Since Burton originally planned for her to be from there, it works out. Further, even the Narration at the beginning hints to a "Dreamland" as it states "maybe somewhere you've seen in your dreams...", So the whole "Sally from Dreamland" works. Her premonition powers also work with this cause "premonitions in dreams". Her personality still fits with the canon, though I can't see the townies being that cruel to her, maybe the witches cause of their weird fangirling over Jack, but otherwise most of the townies are well meaning. I'd more think she'd be suffering from getting overwhelmed by the sudden attention and new duties, that alone can cause crushing anxiety, especially if she's faced an extremely critical and controlling environment like Sally had. Dr. Finkelstein's kidnapping of Sally feels odd as it's been proven he can create "beings", he made a new 'mate' he named Jewel, and brought to life 8 dead reindeer. While I know Finkelstein was supposed to be a villain previously, I think using him this way wasn't the right idea. I personally would have had the Sandman kidnap Sally in anger over the revolt and chunked her into the Hinterlands to die. Sally, being just a kid, lost and afraid, got torn up in the Hinterlands, loosing a lot of her cotton until she, tattered and barely alive, found the Halloween door and fell in. There Finkelstein found her tattered bits and put her back together, stuffing her with leaves in place of the lost cotton, and brought her back to life. In doing so he thought he'd created himself a servant, especially since she couldn't remember who she was, aside from her name. This would fit his obsessive treatment of her which is more master/slave than anything familial, as well as keep his being creation/reanimation abilities intact. Not to mention show another nastiness to Sandy. Sandy's forgiveness at the end sucks too, Oogie Boogie literally was ripped open and reduced to his tiny earwig main bug self, and squashed by Santa. Santa nearly got murked by Oogie in his booby trapped casino, and Jack was freaking blown up. This whole, 'oh he took a nap and now he's nice!' just feels like a mega cop out. He should have been sentenced to eternal slumber in Dreamland or something. If that was all it took, how did none of the Dreamland residents figure it out before?? Also Sally's parents extreme measures seem way over the top, like "Oh no we have a Sandman invasion! Better burn the house down!!". Like how about you try capturing him first?! Also as much as I love exploring the other doors, Thanksgiving and 4th of July creeped me out. They should have stuck with Elfman's idea of turkeys being the residents. The 4th of July world sounded awful, _constant fireworks??_ I don't think there's a real way to depict that holiday like the others and should have been... sidestepped if possible. All in all a good book, just a lot of random plot holes and "eh" parts ... (TL;DR:. Good read but some parts are alittle off and odd)

[@SashaV.]

I concur. In my opinion that "dream sand" or whatever it's called, could have been an excellent idea to defeat Sandman (a taste of his own medicine). Like, That's why they mentioned it, no...? To be relevant to the story... If Finkelstein was researching that...

[@scientistservant]

I’m currently writing a “fix-it fic” that not only includes Dreamland and the Sandman, but also have it make sense and fit with the film AND Sally’s creation.

[@helperb0t4]

4th of July made me so happy to hear about honestly 😅 I'd love to live in that town

[@tayloranderson7547]

For real life

[@djmurphy_05]

with Halloween Town's Oogie Boogie Man and Dream Town's Sand Man, I wonder if the other holidays and special event doors had a "villain" that's banished or locked away. like, maybe Krampus?

[@Lemuel928]

Dang,they’re getting very adjusted to Oogie’s jazz tunes.

[@clueless4238]

And is there a special door that leads to a land for all the banished villains? Lol

[@Wyi-the-rogue]

Realm of sack men.

[@cheii0175]

I love that her background in Halloween town is what saved them. She has her background in potions and able to help him was hilarious. Absolutely loved it.

[@gabrielmerchant]

I hope if there's ever a movie adaptation, they take visual and vibe inspiration for Thanksgiving land from Over The Garden Wall, specifically the pumpkin village and the schoolhouse. Like, what if the people looked more like 19th century newspaper cartoons and caricatures... that like hyperrealistic, ink hatching, faces slightly too big but not inherently horrific. Kinda like the original sketch of the mad hatter.

[@bacchiguu86]

Over the Garden Wall was so good at making a world that just screamed "fall" I will not accept anything else.

[@nuclearcatbaby1131]

I liked Danny Elfman’s idea for Thanksgiving Town

[@tayloranderson7547]

For real life

[@neu_dae]

I like to think that trees/realms that are themed around a particular culture are in a circle like the American holidays - like there's a circle of Japanese holiday trees and a circle of Indian holiday trees... etc (for every culture/country) I think that would be really fun.

[@SICProwl]

If you think about it, Halloween is kind of a young holiday compared to the others - and it's not as widely spread around the world like the others. So it's probably still just a 'baby' door.

[@eldritchthorne]

Not really, it's supposed to be ancient, deriving from the pagan holiday Samhain.

[@cache_valley_cryptid]

Actually, Halloween is thousands of years old! It derives from the Pagam festival of Samhain which was almost merged with All Saints Day but still kept its more spooky origins despite the Christian influence. The "modern" interpretation of Halloween is pretty new, but the origin is very old

[@SICProwl]

@@cache_valley_cryptid I know all this, but if we apply the theme of Halloweentown's door - it's very modern Halloween. So perhaps it's young in those terms? Maybe there used to be an older door that was Samhain or the OG residents have long passed without leaving behind knowledge of the other doors?

[@cache_valley_cryptid]

@@SICProwl actually this is kindof what I was thinking! Maybe there's another Samhain door somewhere else, or maybe Halloweentown itself changed as humans started celebrating Halloween differently.

[@Kyosumari]

People are forgetting that the section of the universe we focus on is specifically mostly modern american holidays. Im sure there are other doors. In fact I bet there's an ancient Samhain door that is now supported with this particular cannon.

[@isobel9195]

I want to see a spin-off series where it’s just focusing on the holiday towns and how they interact with each other

[@SP-ny6pk]

Maybe a door is created when a holiday is created. And as long as people celebrate it, it will exist Also, I think Independence Day world would have been interesting if the people themselves were fireworks. And the thanksgiving people were made out of fruits, vegetables and other harvest related food

[@alexjewett7455]

Or what if they were scarecrows stuffed with straw?

[@helperb0t4]

Firework folk would be absolutely amazing

[@anez1266]

That was truly AMAZING I would have never imagined that this book will reveal so much Lore of the many doors with hidden realms that are full of surprises and history of the world that have existed since the dawn of time. I was truly glad that this story was the journey of Sally finding herself and wondering if she's fit to be The Pumpkin Queen. And that SHOCKING PLOT TWIST of Sally being a ragdoll of the Dream realm left me speechless. I can't believe that doctor kidnapped Sally and pass her off as his "creation", that was the most disturbing thing I've ever heard. It now makes perfect sense how Sally has a talent when it comes to making potions and all the herbs and other ingredients she collects, especially when she made that stew for the doctor that made him fall asleep instantly. Even though she has forgotten who she is and where she was from, she never lost her talent of making things to relax and make sleeping potions, everything makes sense and it was all BRILLIANT! ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT!😍🥰😍

[@megalisa830bright6]

I love the idea of Sally having a backstory, in 'Long Live the Pumpkin Queen'! ^_^ But I think that the book is fan-canon, meaning it's not real! I love to think that Sally is Doctor Finklestein's creation, like the monster is Doctor Frankstein's creation! :D

[@sekaihatsu]

In the afterwords, the author got the ok from Disney and Burton, so I guess her version is a little more than fan-canon.

[@megalisa830bright6]

@@sekaihatsu Yeah! I heard about that! I hope that they do make a sequel movie to 'Nightmare Before Christmas', and I think that it would be neat if they used some of her story ideas! :D

[@hrb9679]

From what I've heard it certainly reads like the fanfiction someone who doesn't really understand the soul of the characters. Like, any of them. Especially Dr Fiklestien (omg Thank you!) I was never super fond of Dr. Finklestien, but good freaking gosh did this author go the extra mile to turn him into a demon. And all for why?? What was wrong with the backstory that Sally was made by Dr Finklestien and he was an overprotective, overcontrolling parent/creator? Why does a RAGDOLL need normal parents??

[@emilinebelle7811]

@@hrb9679 feminazis. Don’t you know? You can’t give men (even evil maniacal ones) any sort of credit for anything. Good or bad. This whole video was massively problematic.

[@hrb9679]

@@emilinebelle7811 I honestly can't think of any other reason for painting the Dr. in such horrible light. As far as I can tell he wasn't mega liked by most because of his overcontrolling of Sally anyway, but this is going out of the way to make sure you feel bad if you even gave him the credit of "but he's just trying to look out for her safety"

[@adampoole948]

Sounds more like a fanfiction story then a real story.. And since it wasn't made by Director Henry Selik, Tim Burton or the writers of the film, I'm going to go ahead and say this isn't cannonical. I love The Nightmare Before Christmas, but it didn't need any sequel. Best to leave some mysteries, like the other holiday doors, just that, a mystery

[@clueless4238]

Burton did read and sign off on this book though.

[@Rexulub]

This retcon was actually a clever move since Sally's personality is so different from anyone in Halloween town. Besides her strange powers related to "visions" didn't have much explanation either

[@nicholasjohnston1970]

I love the idea that there are new Holliday trees and then much older trees that contain old myths and fairy tales

[@BigFanOfManyThings]

I don’t see Sally being able to take the clover out the door a continuity error per se, Jack was able to bring back so much Christmas stuff back in the movie without them crumbling to dust or something. My theory is, that just like in the movie when sally had a vision of Christmas being destroyed when playing with the branch, the rose petals withering and dying in her hands was a vision of what was to come too. I don’t take this book as canon, just fanfiction, but still cute. Sally is native to Halloween town and marries jack with no issues or worries.

[@tayloranderson7547]

That is so awesome for you guys

[@moirawestern20]

Maybe Thanksgiving Town is based on Canadian Thanksgiving. Canadian Thanksgiving is before Halloween, so it would make sense that the trees would still have leaves on them

[@emilinebelle7811]

Canadian thanksgiving isn’t the original thanksgiving. So… I think it was a flaw by the obviously problematic author.

[@nuclearcatbaby1131]

Danny Elfman came up with a better (and rather morbid) idea for Thanksgiving Town.

[@jewelschan]

I was always curious about this book, thank you for sharing it with us.

[@WhoTookMyMirr]

"The next time you think about taking over someone else's holiday, I'd listen to *her*! She's the only one who makes any sense in this insane asylum!" Santa's line in the movie makes so much more sense knowing Sally's not native to Halloween Town!

[@flutterfan2625]

I read the book and as a pretty big nbc fan, honestly my biggest problems with it were that it kinda felt too fanficy at times for me, also sally cried a bit too much for my taste, like almost every other page tears were dripping down her face lol. also the dialouge for the other characters that weren't sally were a bit on the nose, mainly finklestein who's alot more villainous now, makes me wonder if he's based more off the idea of when finklestein was gonna be the main villain of nbc lol i really loved all the character development and character explanation sally got personally, including her struggles. i always liked her as a character and honestly kinda related hard to her just daydreaming all day and wanting to be alone without realizing what you've taken for granted. I liked the sandman as a villain too, he was pretty imposing all though I feel like his redemption wasn't really deserved, and he deserved a punishment too like finklestein. im still getting used to the twist reveal honestly, and SPOILERS. still kinda like it a bit more when sally was just a normal ragdoll, and I feel like if she was and we didn't have a idea of even if she wasn't taken she'd be a ruler some place else it would've helped impact her story a bit more, but overall I enjoyed the book, all though hearing about queen elizabeth the 2nd just being casually tossed into the canon and her actually giving sally a pretty big character moment was so surreal lol.

[@pikapika7402]

I'm not sure if I like the story itself but I do like how we learned what the other realms looked like and I was almost convinced that I'd want to live in the dream realm until it mentioned all the lavender. I'm sorry lavender was always just ok to me but I now am kinda disgusted by it after having a girl's camp at a lavender farm. Loved your visuals and of course the video itself 💜💜

[@rice425]

never thought id have such an inside look at Sally's character🧡

[@NaneelQueenOfDarknes]

OMG!!! i literally shrieked in delight when you showed the book cover! I never knew this was a thing and i so needed it. Been wondering forever as i'm sure many of us have been on sallys origins. Thank you!

[@JackHallowLantern]

I think, since the version of Halloweem portrayed by Halloween town is relatively new as far as mythological beings and holidays go, the residents of Halloween town haven't had time to visit the other holiday doors and find them (well, Jack finally did...but it took some time). The other holiday Rulers probably discovered the other worlds after they established their own holiday towns, centuries and centuries ago. I also think the reason the clover didn't wilt is because it was particularly lucky, and also given willingly instead of "stolen"/"taken" like the flower. Although, I wonder if the flower was also supposed to be symbolic of Sally being taken and "wilting" once she got to Halloween town, being abused by Finkelstein and stuffed with rotten leaves instead of doll stuffing.

[@killerzombie2171]

Sorry but…in Burton’s orignal…none of them knew and when Jack did his thing ALL the holidays learned about each other and agreed to never have such a event like Jack happen

[@JackHallowLantern]

@@killerzombie2171 Yeah but Burton can suck an egg.

[@LucifersBride13]

Halloween is based on the old pagan holiday Samhain - it is an old holiday - as old as Christmas, aka Yule. Halloween isn't new. Many of the same traditions as well, jack-o-lanterns, costumes - were all to scare away bad spirits.

[@johat1219]

Well, in th emovie, Santa wasn't taken willingly and nothing weird happened to him xD. I'll take it as the flowers were kinda sensing Sally's feelings or her romantic/belonging doubts.

[@tayloranderson7547]

For real life

[@karanhdream]

Imagine Yule Town, like a pre-capitalism Christmas Town, ruled by ancient gods or fey beings and it's beautiful while being kinda creepy too (many yule stories are scary or mixed with cautionary tales) That would be awesome!!!

[@staticaleel5068]

Imagine Yule town having Krampus as one of its residents. Would make sense given he’s an old Christmas related German legend who’s completely not involved in the modern holiday.

[@zachisbasics7143]

I imagine that a lot of the pre-capitalism holiday towns would just be trailer parks.

[@JackHallowLantern]

Another fun thing to think about: Who wrote the book Dr. Finkelstein had on all of the realms? Who knew them all? How did he acquire it? Interesting stuff...

[@clueless4238]

I was wondering the same thing. My brain is always looking for a story in something, so after opening up all the other worlds for us my brain started racing as to what other things might be possible in this world.

[@johannajgf15]

Just a made up theorie..... But it would be really nice if it was someone like the Grimm's brothers.... Someone whose job is documenting every holiday that cames to existence(and maybe even protect it?)... That's why it can travel freely between towns. In one of its travels something big happened and he dropped a notebook with some notes from some holidays trees in the Halloween town woods.... And Dr F. found it and start to study the language in the notebook, until he could decipher and made the book that Sally read with his own theories about others portals.

[@franknbeans8904]

Maybe he wrote it back in his younger days, considering as a scientist he would be wanting to acquire more knowledge and discovery. He knows quite a bit of stuff (including anatomy and ways of reanimation) so he must have found some very old places with forgotten knowledge.

[@maggieavilla1336]

What if in his travels and explorations he wrote it. Then upon seeing the death of Sally in dreamland, he decides to see if he can reanimate her, and make a creature that can be from both worlds, also a companion. But Sally isn't from Halloween town and is dead, so she has no memories, and he raises her as a creation/daughter instead.

[@scientistservant]

I’m currently writing a “fix-it fic” that not only includes Dreamland and the Sandman, but also have it make sense and fit with the film AND Sally’s creation.

[@nuclearcatbaby1131]

I think Danny Elfman would have written a great sequel to The Nightmare Before Christmas. Seeing that he wrote the lyrics for all the songs before they wrote the script or anything. He’s also written scripts for a few of his own movies and he got as far as recording song demos (Look up “Little Demons” and “The World of Jimmy Callicut”) but due to financial losses or whatever Disney canned the projects. I also heard him come up with an idea for Thanksgiving Town on a Nightmare Before Christmas documentary and it was better than the idea they had in this book.

[@LilLadyAy]

I'm so greatful you covered this. It was disappointing that they axed the sequel for a book 'of Sally's perspective during the main story' but I'm pleased it spans a lot further.

[@bunnylovesgaming]

She’s not just a ragdoll… She’s the pumpkin queen, a poison expert, a seamstress, a cook, and a Halloween ICON

[@Floweramon]

Huh, interesting! Not sure how I feel about the idea of Sally's origin in this book. It feels like the kind of fantasy a child would think of when they feel mistreated by their parents, that they aren't their REAL parents and they were stolen away from their REAL family and one day they'll meet their REAL family and be super important and never be unhappy, with the unfortunate implication that the only reason their parents would mistreat them is because they aren't blood related. (or I guess created them in any sense) There are a lot of interesting concepts in this book, but I'm not sure I totally vibe with the new origin for Sally.

[@GhostlyPB_Pug]

Same

[@tayloranderson7547]

For real life

[@maggieavilla1336]

Me either. I think the origin should be something along the lines of being killed by the Sandman, which is why he is no longer the ruler, and Dr. Finklestein using her ripped corpse in one of his experiments. Could he reanimate a body from another world? This would also truly make her from 2 worlds. Not just because she became a ruler, but because she is also an undead creature, not just a ragdoll from dreamland

[@Naadeneo]

And then they lived happily ever after

[@scientistservant]

It’s awful. Fink’s my favourite character and they turned him into such a horrible person just because the author hated how Sally “belonged” to him. No one in Halloween Town is evil - that’s why Oogie Boogie lives in that lair under the tree house!

[@kazumawatanabe6924]

Your voice is so soothing, I actually stayed to hear the full story

[@caramelbloom8341]

I think the reason halloween town is so isolated is in their opening song "-but were not mean, in our town of halloween." They make a point of mentioning that theyre not mean, probably because the other holiday towns were scared of the monsters from halloween town

[@Reiri96]

It could mean that her parents are actual normal rag dolls with no Frankenstein stitches and that Sally has the Frankenstein stitches because Dr. F tore her apart when replacing the cotton with fall leaves 🤔

[@seanholmes6791]

I think this is the classic example of why sometimes the story shouldn't be continued. Nightmare didn't need a sequel, it was a perfect little tale of love, and finding yourself. It should have been left there.

[@hele-sweet]

If you want to read about the creepiness Tooth Fairy land, please read Hogfather by Terry Pratchett! It's a holiday themed book that has more to do with what we would call Christmas, but the Tower of Teeth in the land of the Tooth Fairy plays a very vital role.

[@moonlightwolf]

It's such a minor thing, but the ancient trees should have been called a grove since orchards are for fruit-bearing trees

[@JackHallowLantern]

I would love if each tree had its own fruit :) The Valentine tree can grow chocolate truffles, the Halloween tree grows caramel/candied apples, the Easter tree grows...Carrots? Eggs? Marshmallows? It could be interesting!

[@clueless4238]

Maybe we could argue that the holidays are the "fruit" they bear? Yummy, tasty Halloween fruit! Lol

[@clueless4238]

@@JackHallowLantern love that idea!

[@rosykindbunny1313]

Honestly, I called BS on the whole plot twist about Sally's backstory. The book was kinda a disappointment to me, feeling like a glorified fanfic, but I did like the main conflict with the Sandman and the pressures of being queen.

[@scientistservant]

I’m currently writing a “fix-it fic” that not only includes Dreamland and the Sandman, but also have it make sense and fit with the film AND Sally’s creation.

[@rosykindbunny1313]

@@scientistservant I would love to read it

[@scientistservant]

@@rosykindbunny1313 Thank you! :) It's called Pumpkin Queen: Revisited and the first chapter will be up on AO3 soon!

[@rosykindbunny1313]

@@scientistservant You gotta tell me when you upload it!

[@scientistservant]

@@rosykindbunny1313 I certainly will!

[@mr.cynical2201]

So, Sally has an identity crisis, tries to escape from her anxieties by wondering in isolation toward her "dreams" eventually finding them in the form of the Moon door. Everything that transpires is because she made choices and decisions she wasn't ready to make and tries to escape from responsibility and adversity. Only after she resolves her identity crisis and develops inner strength and the discipline to self actuate does the problem actually get solved. There are a lot of elements thrown in just to make Sally oppressed and victimized.

[@Saihgara]

I personally would really like it if they had catacombs of some sort beneath all the towns that were related to the holiday's old origins and celebrations, like Christmas having Yule, Halloween having Samhain, etc etc.

[@Ludi_Chris]

What do rag dolls have to do with sleep? Not a fan Sally’s back story, but like the idea of exploring the doors a new ones. But I think the Sally finding get self is kinda forced.

[@bichi4475]

Possibly because they are like toy/plushies that help children sleep ?

[@clueless4238]

@@bichi4475 that's what I was going to say. Ragdolls are symbolic of the comforting items we like to cuddle to get all comfy and cozy for sleep. They make us feel safe.

[@GingerBun]

@@bichi4475 she looks creepy so that doesn't make sense. maybe if she was a teddy bear.

[@bichi4475]

@@GingerBun I really picture her as some kind of Raggedy Ann, right before Finkelsein kidnapped her and stuffed her with leaves

[@nuclearcatbaby1131]

In the Ghostbusters cartoon the Sandman was a ghost.

[@grey1763]

you asked why halloween town was so isolated, that's because everyone is afraid of them and that keeps them mostly isolated. where the others are fairly friendly happy holidays there isnt another scary one, they are outcasts

[@clueless4238]

Exactly. While visiting the other towns you get the sense that they want you to feel like you'd normally feel on that holiday. The literal goal in Halloweentown is to terrorize everyone. Lol

[@rachelmariecaberapacheco7942]

My only question is, what will happen to Jewel...you know, the Dr's new partner? She was made with half of his brain and looked a ton like him (he falls in love with himself as a female... egocentric at its finest), but will she go with him at his punishment or will be on her own? I mean...she is made with half of him, but at same time isn't him exactly...

[@lizzythecoollizard]

Someone said that Jack and Sally adopted lock, shock, and barrel. So if Jack and Sally die and don't have kids of their own and die outside of their world (I think this is the case because Jack was said to have been dead), those three children would take the throne. (If this is the case this would not go so well) Imagine how chaotic those three would be: Queen Shock, King Lock, and King Barrel 💀

[@sparklegemrose]

This plot got way more wild than I was expecting for a spin-off novel.

[@Fimbleshanks]

This does sound like a fanfiction, but one of the best kinds. I can appreciate that for sure. I once wrote a fanfiction set in a Halloween-y world similar to Nightmare Before Christmas and it was so much fun to flesh out and explore the quirks and possibilities; to play around with the reader expectations set up by decades of exposure to the concept of Halloween and adjacent spooky things. It was the most free I have ever felt while writing, and I hope the author of this book felt the same while working on it.

[@Ryuusei924]

sally choosing to keep both leaves and cotton is literally so sweet :")

[@GreebleClown]

“How does he know so much?” He’s a leprechaun. One of the Good Neighbors. You just accept any free advice and be grateful they aren’t spoiling your milk.

[@dobbysunicorn8398]

You definitely don’t remember me, but thanks for watching all the time, this came out on my birthday, and I love Nightmare before Christmas it’s my favorite movie ever, so thank you!

[@faeatversailles5891]

Happy late birthday!

[@gregzotter6189]

Actually, the characters were a part of Tim Burton's story before Disney made a mess out of the continuity.

[@sunshine-mh3ii]

Cite your sources🤨

[@nuclearcatbaby1131]

With huge contributions from Danny Elfman

[@scientistservant]

@@nuclearcatbaby1131 And Henry Selick!!

[@danielbacon99]

Halloweentown Town probably had its memory of the doors removed on purpose at some point by the other holiday figures (such as the leprechaun who knew so much about them). I mean look at what happened when Jack discovered them.

[@xhanakox6826]

Hey! I love your theory and my mom loves Nightmare before Christmas so know she would watch you with me!

[@genera1013]

It's a new book actually

[@DogFlamingoXIII]

I was really hoping for a great tale for Sally that didn't have to be so heavily saturated in, "Women are oppressed, no matter where you go!" stereotypes, but it seems like that's becoming harder and harder to find in new fiction. All books with female heroes have to be about female oppression. I also disliked the changes to storyline and character histories that were, to me, perfect how they were. I'm glad for those that really enjoyed this, but I really didn't care for this. As a fan of the original "Wizard of Oz" novels, I was really hoping for more of a gothy version of that style of writing, not a remaking what wasn't broken, dyed deeply with female oppression. Also the 4th of July people that were silently staring at the fireworks in the sky, while they slept were the most terrifying part in the book.

[@emilinebelle7811]

Exactly!

[@josieparker4710]

It doesn’t sound like the book does that. I strongly disagree with you. Also the book might be aimed towards younger audiences.

[@DogFlamingoXIII]

@@josieparker4710 You really can't tell without reading it. What does the audience have to do with the content?

[@chanterelle483]

@@DogFlamingoXIII Well did you read that book? If not, then how can you tell?

[@DogFlamingoXIII]

@@chanterelle483 Yes, I read the book. It would have been very strange for me to make a post about what I liked and didn't like and what was disappointing had I not read it.

[@gagaplex]

I'd want to visit Silvester (New Year's Eve) Realm, definitely. The explosives, the molten lead, the driving out of ghosts and demons. Honestly, I thought that's what the door in the grove in the movie was, not Independence Day...

[@kilderok]

...Is THAT How NYE is supposed to be celebrated?? I've just been depressed and drunk.

[@Marskilius]

@@kilderok In my country we melt tin, then drop it in ice water to cool it and re-solidify it. Then we read fortunes for the upcoming year from the new formation. For example sails mean traveling and lots of texture means money. I don't think it is that popular anymore and some people are switching the tin for candle wax as it is more eco friendly.

[@gagaplex]

@@kilderok Well, you can always combine things. 🤷‍♂️

[@tayloranderson7547]

For real life

[@crazycaravan4773]

I'd like to think that Halloween Town is isolated is because they never really explored the doors nor have other door people really left their realm too much

[@JackHallowLantern]

If we got another book, I would love a plot where the beetle from the Halloween tree, Oogie Boogie, returns and tries to take over Dream Town, bringing nightmares and fear to children instead of dreams. But...maybe that's too similar to the plot of Rise of the Guardians lol

[@Lemuel928]

Well,well,well..Here we bunking go again.

[@nuclearcatbaby1131]

I would love to see what kind of book Danny Elfman would write about it.

[@Noodlesguitar]

I love reading and watching other bookworms talk about books and theory’s so much and you’re genuinely my favorite. Your voice is so calming and you make subjects most would be bored talking about very interesting!

[@ochakouraraka4049]

the clover and the flowers could be away to talk about sallys feeling, as she left with the flowers she felt like her worth was cause she helped, but leaving with the clover she related something that could help with the issue she was having.

[@fennerarmstrong3346]

This book can do what it wants. We all know the true sequel to The Nightmare Before Christmas is the videogame "The Nightmare Before Christmas: Oogie's Revenge". Soul Robber!

[@destinee6590]

8:58 My immediate thoughts for why the clover wouldn't wilt is because it is "particularly lucky." Luck would be a real tangible thing in a holiday realm of leprechauns, it isn't a regular plant. It's "particularly lucky," which clearly means something to this all-knowing leprechaun, because he made a point to say it.

[@destinee6590]

Man I actually love the idea that the Sandman is Like That is because not sleeping has literally driven him insane.

[@pishposh4506]

I like the general idea of exploring the other holiday worlds and sally not being comfortable being queen, and the sandman sounds creepy and I even think the resolution of him just being evil because he's never slept before works. But I just don't like the idea of sally not being from Halloween town

[@Trivial_Whim]

The trees in Thanksgiving town having leaves is because orange is seasonally thematic. Halloween Town’s are bare because that makes for a menacing silhouette.

[@Sparkling34]

I do like them doing more with nightmare before Christmas but I kind of wish they went more indepth with the original doors instead of adding a bunch more

[@b.radleypro.369]

Would explain that she kept giving him deadly night shade to put him to sleep lol

[@AshtonMiller-op3bv]

omg her voice is gentle i love it it makes me feel safe😭

[@MissNulle2000]

Some speculation as to how the other realms may know more than halloween town does: Now i still dont know how or why the inhabitants of halloween town never ventured out much themselves. But if the ones from other reals were to do so they would be less likely to approach the halloween folk. I mean most of them are just literal monsters. So what little they know, i imagine some of the realms might be old enough to have been in contact with now mostly forgotten ones and thus shared such knowledge. Except not with the things with all the teeth and eyes.. we dont talk to those.. nore like going there.. its scary..

[@littleemochick13]

“You can make other creations! I’m restless! I can’t help it!” I guess now we understand why she’s so restless. The poor dear

[@catcocomics1601]

hmmm, makes me wonder how that meshes with Oogie's Revenge, since Oogie's Revenge is set to take place around Halloween of the same year. We definitely see a lot more of Halloween Town in that game.

[@riakun]

The sandman going on some crazy rampage because he needed a nap is honestly a really big mood

[@feathers3411]

I think the plot inconsistencies can just be read as the book essentially being styled as an old fable or myth - they rarely fully make sense, and instead like to lead you into your own interpretation of the finer details by hand-waving a lot of the specifics It's not necessarily great, but I think some degree of it is artistic choice!

[@JaguarCats]

In regards to that wall and Sandman, if the sand weighs him down then he couldn't just simply drop whatever sand he was carrying to float over it to steal more! As that sand that he stole would just weigh him down again to prevent him from floating back over. So it makes sense his only way in or out of Dream Town would be that guarded door.

[@SergioLeonardoCornejo]

For a movie only its director had hope in, it turned both quite successful and lore heavy.

[@jwt2039]

i just found this channel and its absolutely amazing. i don't usually comment on youtube but it perfectly analyses all of my favourite films and i just wanted to show my appreciation :)

[@fmor2779]

I was worried that when you mentioned that she was unsure of her marriage with Jack the story could have changed to a "marriage is jail and submission for women" kind of mentality. But after watching the whole video I am relieved that one of my favorite pairs didn't fall into that. Kinda wanna buy that book now.

[@maxblake5564]

I’d love to see Father Time’s realm. I’ve always been OBSESSED with the concept of Time as a mystical force, to the point where Time was my favorite character in Tim Burton’s Alice Through the Looking Glass.

[@whatsupchickenbutt9686]

Perhaps we need to look at Neil Gaiman's American Gods for some backstory to holidays & customs. After all, Neil & Tim are almost twins in some ways.

[@nuclearcatbaby1131]

If Tim has a twin it’s Danny Elfman. He practically wrote the movie plus he came up with an idea for Thanksgiving Town that doesn’t get used here

[@Dark_Tale_2077]

You should consider doing a full narration of the book, your voice just adds so much.

[@darkblossom19]

Finally get to hear your thoughts on the book!!!

[@Celeste-jh2lj]

You know knowing Sallys origins explains why she was so good at knocking the dr out whenever she wanted to go out.

[@anthonymarziano1921]

Personally I find The lore in this book to be Fascinating, Because we get to learn more about the residents whether the be the citizens of halloween town like the mysterious sandman, and another think i found interesting is that we get to see what the other worlds are like, like for EXample the world Beyond the valentines door is Like a swell spot for people to take a honeymoon Thanks Giving town where its know for is pumpkin patches and Really chilly air, I love you analyze of the book and I am pretty sure hearing you read this book makes people who Read it happy to know that the legacy of the story of the Pumpkin king is being told by someone who actually knows alot about the History and lore Of halloween town, Question but what do you think the super mario bros movie that is coming out, Do you have an theory's on that, that is all I want to talk to you about, I wish you a very safe and spooky Halloween, One more Think I also like that video about Cats I really thought you gave some Marvelous facts about them, Also I have a idea for another video you could do a Pla thought of five nights at Freddy's security breach.

[@cookiesyruplover]

Would have never known about this book without this video! Thank you so much for covering it with such beautiful narration and unique visuals! I love Sally and Nightmare Before Christmas in general so this is a lovely treat

[@simsgirlgem]

Imagine having the Halloween equivalent of your organs ripped from your body and more or less made a scarecrow 😱

[@ZoeyZoestar]

Honestly, I think the reveal of the ancient grove is a cool opportunity for fans to create interpretations of realms they think could possibly exist. It expands the possibility beyond holidays into other aspects of folklore and mythical figures. Personally I think it adds another fun way for fans to engage with the content.

[@vinnygothika7510]

If Tim Burton didn't sign off on it it's technically not canon as Disney may have partial rights but they don't own Nightmare Before Christmas, he does.

[@clueless4238]

It is my understanding that they had him read and approve it before they released it under the Disney name.

[@JunoSimon703]

My personal head cannon is that sally was abducted and murdered as a child by Dr. Finkelstein from dreamtown so he could study the magic of the ancient doors and towns and that led him to resurrect sally which caused her to forget her past life and start anew in Halloweentown only to discover her true past through the story of the new book but in a slightly different way. As others have said the way it was explained in the book kinda felt more like fan fiction, this way feel more cryptic and sensible

[@onemoreweirdo207]

Imma be honest, as cool of an idea exploring the other doors may sound, I don't feel like this story fits well with the movie.

[@autumneagle]

Some rather oddly specific holiday doors (4th of July and Thanksgiving) that removes a bit of the mystique

[@gio11235]

A lot of things didn't make any sense, not a fan of this story. But I can keep listening to your voice for hours, thanks for bringing it to us