How Star Wars (Accidentally?) Made One of Its Heroes a Fascist

[@Sifeus]

It's such a shame because Star Wars politics of this era COULD be an interesting parable about the vulnerability of a new government establishing itself in peacetime, but being shackled to the constraints of the sequel films' rise of the First Order means military leaders' hawkishmess has to end up being both "correct" and also tragically insufficient.

[@Sifeus]

I think we probably think about this stuff more than the production did. It's too much to hope for critical anti-fascist storytelling from a US megacorp. That would be producing art against its own interest.

[@IceSpoon]

To be fair, our own Earth's history is full of scientific and military advisers saying "I told you so" to political morons who took bad decisions.

[@everettjohnson9374]

That's like watching the prequels and knowing what's gonna happen means nothing we see politically matters

[@TemplinInstitute]

imagine that gif of Syril Karn really passionately saying "Exactly!" here.

[@Sifeus]

​@@everettjohnson9374not exactly. The prequels being about how a democracy becomes an autocracy. Messy as those movies were that's still an important story to tell. (Especially for post-9/11 American audiences) Current era Star Wars positions the threat (the first order) as EXternal rather than INternal. A scenario that's historically much less likely to cause the fall of a democracy,

[@vineveer4358]

I'm mostly bothered by the fact a general has to go to their civilian government to ask for permission to send out a reconnaissance force. And she's then denied because she doesn't have enough information to legitimize the operation. You know, the operation to send out a reconnaissance force for information. I could see the conversation making more sense if it was like, "No, you can't send warships of x tonnage to that system. They need to be on standby for proven threats, and even then we can't just swing a naval force around willy nilly like the empire. It'd make people panic and lose faith in the new republic." Then have Hera throw a small fit before leading a scouting expedition of x-wings to the system and being unable to stop the big hyperspace ring from jumping galaxies. The story beats seem to point at "Rebels are unsuited to the new government oversight" and "the new democratic system is too slow to deal with threats efficiently." It would be nice if the new republic's failings were shown because of how difficult their tasks are post-war, instead of JUST being personally incompetent at every level. Has a single new republic official appeared competent at their job on screen yet? In any series? There's no tragedy to the new republic they just seem to have what's coming to them in the sequel movies.

[@IRGodful]

The best way to do that would be for the Admiral in charge of the sector tell her to butt out, and Senator Dickhead seizing on the opportunity to put her in her place

[@kdcgaming9658]

"No, you can't send warships of x tonnage to that system." If I remember correctly that essentially was his initial argument, they needed the fleet on aid missions or smth. But yeah a few xwings wont do much on an aid mission.

[@Raussl]

That! Why would the top of government be concerned or flat out deny sending a small force to a system that for all we know doesn't even have a population that could be "bothered" by the force showing up.

[@nicholasscott3287]

"Has a single new republic official appeared competent at their job on screen yet? In any series?" The X-Wing pilot from the Mandalorian

[@Alloyaha]

This was entirely my reaction as well- I feel this analysis is entirely too high-brow and seems to assume the New Republic is in any way cohesive, structured, or even democratic. From what we've seen its like an engineer being tossed keys to a very complex reactor and being told "good luck". We see this in the Mandaloarian a lot. Under-qualified / unqualified people with too few resources trying to fill the power vacuum of a galactic empire- and falling far short. I think in a patchwork galactic government, frustrations and insults are the least of their concerns.

[@Bird_Dog00]

Here's a question that's been bugging me about this: Why is Hera even reporting to a group of senators on matters of day-to-day operations? She's a frontline general, she doesn't spend her day hours in an office on corouscant. There should be at least two more layers between her and the senate. There should be a supreme commander of the military of sorts and then above that guy, there should be some civilian guy acting as a link between the highest brass and the civilian government. And if Hera's supposed to be that top brass guy, then what the hell is she doing away from her desk on corouscant anyway?

[@notthefbi7015]

You think Filoni actually did research on this?

[@Bird_Dog00]

@@notthefbi7015 No, but neiter did I. All I did was to spend like 2 or 3 minutes of thinking on how a military chain of command might look and on wether or not high ranking politicans would realisticaly get involved in such matters...

[@kelvinsantiago7061]

The members of the Senate remember how Palpatine rose to power using the military so now they've put the military in a VERY tight leash.

[@whateverwhatever4476]

@@notthefbi7015I mean Legends isn't any better TBF. It has the same issue but TBF that happens with multiple people just throwing shit in there. Their government is all over the place

[@wolfgod6443]

Because this is a newly formed government with limited experience, authority, and discipline. Hera is one of the founders of the Rebel Alliance and a decorated war hero. A far as most people will be concerned, she's one of the NR's leaders even if some bureaucrats don't agree with it. In the Rebel Alliance, a "frontline general" would translate to "makes 80% of the decisions for everyone in the entire Rebellion" because they're a relatively small force risking most of their people and resources in battles like Endor. ...That, or we could simply remember that the Old Republic didn't do anything like this either. Jedi generals walked into the Senate and talked with politicians directly all the time. It's not something done in Star Wars. Probably because it would mean these characters wouldn't meet otherwise. This is a story after all. Can you imagine the uselessness an in-between guy would have in a narrative? Unless it's a story about him spreading misinformation, few are going to include him.

[@TheRewasder97]

A very odd thing is that this doesn't really look like Rebels' Hera. Back in Rebels she was the one with the bigger picture in mind, abbiding by the politics of the rebellion even if it meant stopping her crew.

[@sirboomsalot4902]

To be fair, in her mind this is a “bigger picture” thing. Though it’s hard to judge this as we the audience obviously know both more and less than the characters do.

[@peterchasten2790]

I feel like she all ready had Achieved the "Bigger Picture" which was defeating the empire. During most of the "New Republic politics" bits, Hera is mostly just upset and has the mood of "This is what I fought for?"

[@markgundle4150]

Not at first pass, no. But if she's wrong, the New Republic is out some personnel, materiel, and time that admittedly could and should have been put to better use. And if she's right, then the one man that could legitimately and openly reunite the Empire returns basically unopposed. Just because she can't necessarily convince the senators of that doesn't mean she's lost her step as a big picture thinker. It just means that she's a space fantasy version of Cassandra. I imagine it's frustrating, seeing what's coming and the people you need to convince to take action won't listen. Even if that line really did irk me for the exact reasons the Institute outlined.

[@rustyshackleford234]

Man the sequels really nerfed the canon’s new republic, as it HAS to be incompetent for the events for those mediocre movies to happen.

[@liamclarke91]

They have to make up for not taking the L's Legends took for electing both Borsk Fey'lia AND Admiral Daala.

[@USSAnimeNCC-]

It would have make sense if the galaxy was fragmented after the fall of the empire and one side the galaxy are very loyal and they allow the empire to set up shop and rebuild with the new republic somehow unable to anything about because the galaxy have many different factions like and like the Russia and us their many factions between them to anything about each other the new republic got to becareful of pissing of it neighbors who they need or don’t want to mess with because it’ll leave them open to the empire while the empire is trying to do the same and these faction may Allie to one side or not Allie with either or net neutral

[@Andyliberty0923]

The NR stupidity is really killing my interest in Star wars

[@duckhawkninja3614]

I don’t think it’s as much incompetence as it is many within the new republic government are “reformed” imperials.

[@ninyaninjabrifsanovichthes45]

@duckhawkninja3614 Eh, whats up Werner Von Braun

[@bjarkev1296]

The general acts as if she is a rebel from a group with a flat hierarchy, not as a general in the military. This highlights the problem with building your military from a group of rebels. They tends to distrust authority and value their own opinions higher than the chain of command.

[@Hk121394]

Which is why Wedge hated being an admiral in the EU

[@elpito9326]

Rebel groups (the ones that succeed without extensive external support, at least) tend to have a fairly strict organisation when it comes to their armed wing. They might employ tactics like elected officers, that can democratise the military a bit, but they're still not running around doing as they please.

[@IRGodful]

​@Hk121394 wedge hated it because of the politics he needed to play took time away from flying and blowing stuff up

[@decoded360]

While this is true, I'd also like to point out they completely mischaracterized Hera. Not sure what the writers were smoking 😂

[@Treblaine]

Actually she does act appropriately because senators would not be her superiors. They are members of the legislative branch, they are just a small part of a block that votes on laws. They are neither superior nor inferior, they are a separate part of a democratic system. That doesn't make them above any military officer, it is the head of the executive branch that is the head of the military. The way senators influence the military is the way they influence everyone by acting collectively - not individually or even in small groups - to pass laws that affect everyone equally. They can't just have "anyone with the name Hera Syndulla has to do whatever I say or else she goes to prison for 20 squillion years. That's the law we just passed." as that is just legislating the legislature to have executive authority.

[@Interitus1]

i really hated the whole discussion because she's complaining about Thrawn first without context to senators who may not know him (and the audience who didn't watch Rebels). And it is made clear that Thrawn is considered dead and that this is more her looking for Ezra, which, they're not wrong. The entire thing was basically you can't do it, well i'm doing it anyway/ Plus as a general surely she would have enough power to send a scout to a star system. . If she has to ask senators for something as basic as that then it's no suprise the Republic keeps falling.

[@IRGodful]

If the system is outside her assigned responsibilities then she would need permission to take her forces out of their assigned area to do something else. Remember that military assets are assigned to her through her combatant command (or equivalent) and are only 'hers' because she was assigned to the combatant command

[@olafgurke4699]

Never mind the fact that she HAS BEEN GIVEN evidence, which she proceeded to forget. Honestly, the writing in this show is so subpar that every serious discussion about it becomes kind of moot.

[@erikanders3343]

They are Senators on the Military subcommittee. They would know who Thrawn is and the fact that he is not confirmed dead. The issue is that some of those Senators are from pro empire worlds and, just as with our RL, they work to bring the Empire back. Remember in the US how many worked to bring back the confederacy of its ideals even to this day.

[@lyon2475]

@@olafgurke4699 Everything in the first half of the story is written around the plot of going to the new galaxy and so in order to do that they have to hamstring the Republic and the heroes at every possible opportunity. Even after they leave the galaxy and travel to the new one they still continue to make the heroes out to be incompetents despite their decades of war and rebellion. Because otherwise, they couldn't write a smart and threatening Thrawn. They're incapable of doing so without making Ahsoka, Ezra, Hera, and Sabine constantly act like inexperienced, un-knowledgeable, and at times childish, civilians. Despite each of them being hardened war heroes. Not to mention the writers have to make the New Republic out to be objectively worse than the most incompetent Old Republic actions in order for the Sequel Trilogy to even happen.

[@Sephiroth144]

@@IRGodful Yeah, but she wouldn't be asking a civilian authority- she'd be asking the next up in her chain of command... so unless she's the head of the NR Navy, there's absolutely zero reason for her to have to engage the politicians.

[@harrysmith1711]

This puts me in the mind of a quote by T.E. Lawrence: "Rebels, especially successful rebels, were of necessity bad subjects and worse governors"

[@occam7382]

Which is funny because one of the rebels that T.E. Lawrence worked with (though not directly) turned out to be great at both of those things.

[@hannesgranlund8838]

@@occam7382who?

[@occam7382]

@@hannesgranlund8838, Abdullah ibn Hussein, Hussein ibn Ali's 2nd son. He was one of the military leaders of Hejaz during the Arab Revolt in WW1, where Lawrence was involved. He wasn't that great of a battlefield commander, but he turned out to be an excellent administrator and diplomat, which proved useful when the British made him Emir of Transjordan in 1918, a role he would hold (in some form or another) all the way until his death in 1951.

[@_jpg]

Tito was a rebel, too, and still managed to hold Yugoslavia together for decades 😅

[@levongevorgyan6789]

@@occam7382 In the case of Abdullah ibn Hussein, he wasn't some farmer or shepherd or something who took up arms, he was the son of the Sharif of Mecca, raised and educated in the high class. Like how the American Revolution was lead by the educated upper class of America, once the distant overlord was driven off, these men who were practically already part of the government or military simply became the ones in charge.

[@andrewshandle]

I'd argue that the underlying writing and world building around how Senators of a Republic with a population of 100 Trillion people micro-manage the military is so bad that it makes any actions take by Hera moot. She acts like this because none of her scenes with the senators makes any sense.

[@ryanwaits6733]

Are there even direct elections in Star Wars? Like has some book or something in Legends or Canon ever touched on that? Or are most if not all Senators elected like the US Senate used to be where some other local elected body or executive appoints them?

[@Alpha_Digamma]

@@ryanwaits6733in the old republic days it worked like this: each member planet got one senate seat. How that senator got its seat was up to the member planet. It could be through democratic election or by appointment by a monarch or noble council or oligarchic commitee etc. etc. New Republic wanted to restore the old one, so the current system should be similar to what happened in/ before prequels era.

[@fluffskunk]

@@ryanwaits6733 Monarchies seem to be alive and well through much of the galaxy, and are represented as fully legitimate in the Republic.

[@alexander9703]

@@fluffskunk It's kind of like the European Union. That has it's elected Parliament, with member states with their own governments some of which are monarchies.

[@Treblaine]

@@Alpha_Digamma So like the State Senators in the USA before the Seventeenth Amendment.

[@Carlos-ux7gv]

The problem with that hearing, in my opinion is that, after a major attack from ex-imperials, possibly misplacing billions of credits in weapons and resources, the General was denied the use of a small taskforce to help a field agent investigation. She should not have to ask for such small resources or even bother 5 senators, but rather reporting the results of the investigations.

[@kingofhearts3185]

And is being held back by an ex imperial with not history of supporting the rebellion during the war, which adds to the idea he might be part of it.

[@CleverRiley9]

Its a very small detail but you mentioned "The relationship between a civilian govt and their military." That 'their' is so goddamn important, the military serves at the pleasure of those they protect, and praise or support is conditional of how they conduct themselves during wartime and peacetime. And the leaders of the military HAVE to respect that, or they just become no better than criminals.

[@IRGodful]

At the risk of getting too political with current events, officers that subvert the chain of command to 'protect the nation' are as great a threat, if not greater, than the governments they claim to be thwarting

[@supercellodude]

Legitimation, the processes of rising and falling legitimacy of leadership and authority in societies, becomes very tricky when military leaders respect themselves and their compatriots and subordinates over the civilians segments. The Spanish Civil War heated up because the Falange was able to graft itself into the military power structure while the democratic government felt it had to strengthen its own defense mechanisms with worker militias opposed to the Falange. Germany had swathes of unemployed soldiers who then went on to form ultranationalist precursors to the rise of a certain mustached man.

[@senateurpalpatine]

Weak rebels

[@irishguy051]

While this is true, you give people in the militsry authority in order for them to use it. Why have generals if they arent empowered to make decisions and pursue the interests of the Republic. The idea that a general or admiral would need permission from a senate committee for a reconaissance patrol is absurd. If there was some task Hera was neglecting that would be one thing, but what we see play out is micromanagement of the most heinous kind.

[@CleverRiley9]

@@irishguy051 its not an issue of authority its one of subordination and respect. The idea for most nations is that the legitimate democratically elected leaders decide policy and if the military will be deployed, and once that happens the military is kept on a short lease and overseen to make sure they are pursuing the policy aims of the democratically elected leaders. And of , the military in most western states (im sure its similar in other nations but I only know the procedures of western nations) the military and its commanders are subordinate to civilian agencies and officials. Anything else leads to coups and authoritarian regimes.

[@VikCachat]

No evidence? What about the slaughtered crew of one of the republics new cruisers during a prisoner breakout isn't enough. Everyone involved including Hera didn't seem to care at all about the loss life of new republic personal.

[@ALUCARD-us3il]

Is it that? Or were they just used to it, after all Hera literally grew up in warfare, I imagine people getting killed is a 24/7 thing to her.

[@VikCachat]

@@ALUCARD-us3ilThe lives of the crew aside how does it look that the new republic does nothing to hunt down those responsible.

[@erikanders3343]

They died, you die in military service. Everyone in the room likely know about it... so why discuss it?

[@erikanders3343]

@@VikCachat They are, but thats likely delegated and not something a general should be spending time on. Thats a small tactical issue after all.

[@VikCachat]

@@erikanders3343 What I'm getting at is that Baylen, Shin and Morgan should have been the main concern; Thrawn shouldn't have even entered the discussion at this point. Two mercenaries boarded and took out an entire cruisers company to breakout a prisoner this alone should be all the justification needed to investigate any and all leads no matter how small. They have evidence of the mercs location a clear line from the cruiser through to the shipyard and then a tracking beacon to the Deneb System.

[@ThrawnFett123]

The one issue with this take is that Xiano was acting without proper authority when he issued his orders. He was trying to speak as the Defense Council to order Hera without holding a meeting. This was in fact how Leia managed to save Hera, since she was the Head of the Defense Council, SHE had the proper authority to authorize it on her own initiative pending a meeting of the Council as a senior member. Xiano however was trying to delay calling a meeting because he was trying to make sure his order stood as long as possible. By most standard parlimentary procedures, when a senior defense official reccomends an action that is then denied by a junior member of the authorizing Council, the issue should be taken to the Senior member (Leia who he probably knew would overrule him), or brought to a full vote as per whatever the Councils prochedures on a Quorom are. I cannot say for sure what the New Republics parliamentary prochedure is, but Leias saving the day seems to indicate this seniority system is in fact in effect. While this doesnt change much of what you brought up, it does change one MAJOR issue with the "no, I disobeyed YOU" section. In the context of this parliamentary prochedure, (while fair to say Hera took a hell of a chance that Leia would back her play in time) Hera was fully within her rights acting under the full legal authority of the Defense Council Chair. Hence the whole reprimand part from Threepio where Leia basically said "please consult the Defense Council Chair first for Council Business if you want to throw a fit about it". She didn't run an unauthorized military excursion, she investigated an urgent defense matter at the request of the Defense Chair while awaiting a full vote. We all know what a sham it is spiritually if not technically to the law. But especially in Defense matters where seconds can often lead to disaster, theres often a lot of leeway built in for post-facto justification for these types of things. And the law rarely makes a distinction since the Defense Chair is the signing authority, if they want to own it before it happened or after, they still own it. Hera seemed clearly willing to take the hit herself if not, so this matter seems to fall squarely into standard parliamentary prochedure

[@IRGodful]

Good post, but that situation is exactly what court martial are for

[@shanenolan5625]

Why would leia be able to overrul Mon mothma ? Why was she not present ? ( apart from real world) . Mon mothma is the commander and chief . And wasn't this high command ? Why wouldn't admiral ackbar not be in command as supreme commander ? And he was in this room . They even had leia lie for hera. . This was the oversight. The authority.

[@ThrawnFett123]

@IRGodful I completely agree. Leia had not expressed her authority ahead of time, and the point of a court-martial at that point is to establish if the officer acted appropriately or not. But that's addressed by the whole Threepio "Leia sent me with a message she believes can clear up this issue". She did, in fact, clear all the parlimentary issues by extending her authority. I have no issues with Hera being court-martialed for it. My issue is just that one of the major pillars of the video itself, her legal authority to do what she did, was NOT so black and white as it would appear from the base reading of the situation. As a senior defense official, Hera absolutely earned at minimum a formal inquiry into her actions. Taking it to a court-martial was within the rights of Xiano (as apparently he did). And authorizing the matter post-facto was within Leias rights (as SHE did, since no one argued that it was after the fact despite Xiano being on the ground and presumably able to raise that claim if he thought he could make it stick)

[@ThrawnFett123]

@shanenolan5625 the New Republic seems to operate on Council parlimentary style prochedure. Basically, certain powers are sent to a smaller more specialized subset of Senators. As the Chancellor, Mon Mothma almost certainly divested the Chancellorship of military affairs, since that's one of the core ways Palpatine came to power. So the head of the Defense Council (Leia in this case) becomes a de-facto "Commander in Chief". Many things like Foreign Affairs, Economics, and others are probably also ran by their own Councils for the same reasons of Palpitine centering them around the Chancellor to become Emperor. I'm sure Mon Mothma kept some powers that usually reside in a Chancellor, like calling the Senate to vote on any council decisions she doesn't like, appoing the heads of the Coincils, maybe the same "I authorize this on my authority until a Council member or meeting occurs", and a few other light powers, but the point of the New Republic was to strip powers AWAY from herself and TOWARDS committees. Ackbar would be in the Same boat as Hera, he's just THE senior ranking Defense member. He can't overrule a Council member, just give his best advice as the senior most Defense Official. It would take the council chair, or the full council in that order to overrule the council member. Since the events happened already with no council vote, the full council is too late. They could vote to censure or remove Leia for doing it, but thats it

[@xavierladik1212]

@ThrawnFett123 I really love your comment

[@leoismaking]

I think the problem is they are trying to mirror the plot of "Heir to the Empire" but without being able to freely use Leia. Xiono is obviously the stand-in for Borsk Fey'lya, but while Borsk and Ackbar butted heads a TON, there was also Leia, a senator herself, to call him on his BS and provide cover. Here, without being able to use her or an equivalent, they have 3PO come in with Hera's cover. There just isn't an established *political* character they can use regularly to hold that role so Hera is being Ackbar AND Leia. I wish they had introduced a sympathetic senator - maybe from Lothal, or someone else who has history with the Rebellion - to be in that role.

[@-----REDACTED-----]

I don’t think it’s accidental but due to the incompetence inherent to the new republic. Which was inherited from the empire. Which in turn inherited from the old republic.

[@KaiserStormTracking]

which in turn is inherited from the High republic which in turn is inherited by the old old republic and the sith empire

[@Sifeus]

Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.

[@bobbilly7499]

Truely a proud lineage and tradition.

[@Jamesthemaze]

But Hera should know better! Also isn’t anyone just the slightest bit bothered by the fact our heros fought for a goverment that is dumber and less effective than rocks?

[@cmdraftbrn]

@@Jamesthemaze then quit electing morons that tell you what you want to hear.

[@feralhistorian]

As an irascible American contrarian, I find the whole idea of senators in a new government established via a rebellion expecting obedience from anyone to be rather amusing.

[@IRGodful]

Diversity is a strength, don't you know?

[@dr0g_Oakblood]

Considering that a large portion of the alliance’s leadership was just former Old Republic leaders, the Alliance to Restore the Republic was really more a “Return to Business as usual” for a lot of the political elite of the galaxy.

[@FortuitusVideo]

And yet Washington himself had to put down a tax rebellion becuase the new legislature expected people to obey.

[@Somajsibere]

Ok, and what are they to do? How else would they be able to establish a republic?

[@feralhistorian]

Viewed from the other side though, if the rebellion fought a long and difficult war against a corrupt government, only for another corrupt government to take over, by what reasoning should they accept that one as legitimate? On what basis do the new Senators claim legitimacy when they were installed by violent revolution? Their only real claim would have to stem from governing well, rationally and fairly. It doesn't appear they're doing that.

[@griffinbaker6219]

I don’t believe Hera questioned Xiono on his patriotism or military history, it was his understanding of the Empire’s threat. A senator like him probably came from a wealthier planet, a wealthier sphere of influence that was not treated as unjustly as the working class. He very well could have sat on the sidelines and lived an expensive life, waiting to cheer for whomever won. In the end, the working class made everything the Imperial upper class consume, and with either the Rebellion or Empire winning, he would still be in his higher place.

[@danielwolfgang8234]

Senator Xiono is from a wealthy family originating from Hosnian Prime. Which is the Core, so mostlikely an important economic Center. It will later on serve as New Republic Capitol until its Destruction by the First Order. As for him sitting at the sidelines during the Galactic Civil War. I think he was a Teenager at best during the War, but i am not sure since i was unable to obtain information on his Date of Birth.

[@boobah5643]

Either way, Hera was questioning his right to perform the duties of his office.

[@danielwolfgang8234]

@@boobah5643 I disagree, she was questioning his ability to perform his duties properly due to a lack of experience with the Imperial Military, in this case Grand Admiral Thrawn. I take issue with how she did it tho. The clear lack of professionalism on her part in this situation didn´t help with averting the animosity between the two.

[@sonofjack6286]

The fact that there's a civilian oversight committee that has to command someone at a rank of Hera's, when there's likely an in-universe equivalent to the Joint Chiefs of Staff, is stupid. She wants to send a patrol out to that random system, let her send a patrol.

[@Boomerrage32]

Hey, you're not wrong. The whole damn thing smacks of the writers not having a great deal of understanding of how these things work. And I'm not saying that I have any more understanding of it but it all felt wrong somehow. Like, one general gets to go rogue like that? Is the New Republic in a state of war? Does she have permanent command of an army group in peace time or something? And she's a general, right, why does she have a fleet, isn't that something an admiral would normally have? Like, that wasn't no patrol, that was a fleet of capital ships, and she just so happens to have command of that? Wouldn't generals having permanent command of military forces also leave the Republic open for a military coup or something? Look, I've just asked you a series of questions, and I don't expect an answer to them, they're rhetorical questions, the point is that this show raises more questions than it answers. The whole thing feels wrong to me, do you know what I mean?

[@sonofjack6286]

@@Boomerrage32 Absolutely. The writing for most live action star wars, barring Andor and Rogue One, has always seemed a bit lackluster.

[@Boomerrage32]

@@dutchrjen Very informative, thanks a lot. Even though I'm not American, I would take this opportunity to also thank you for your service. The American armed forces are what's keeping my country safe. I am ashamed of our freeloading, it ain't fair to you guys, not even a little bit, and I wish more of my countrymen would appreciate that. At any rate, I wish Filoni or whoever's in charge of the overall Star Wars continuity would take advice from real-world experts. Even the greatest writing cannot make up for poor world building.

[@elliotyourarobot]

@@Boomerrage32 Where you from?

[@Boomerrage32]

@@elliotyourarobot Not America, very European. Why do you ask?

[@rickydjx]

You're... not wrong, sadly. Revolutionaries do often just keep looking for fights because they've stopped seeing anything else. I think they're just going for"Rebels against the establishment yeeeahhh!" rather than any Andor-like depth, so that's probably why this is the way it is. Also, that Adama/Roslin scene was, is and always will be absolute perfection and I'm always delighted to see it

[@erikanders3343]

Thus the US in the war of 1812, the American - Spanish war, the American - Mexico war, so on and so forth. The US has been fighting wars every generation since its founding

[@trla6505]

remids me oof the rules of ruler, those that are needed to take control are not the same to hold on the control

[@Boomerrage32]

@@trla6505 The skillset required to win an empire is not the same skillset that is required to keep it.

[@trla6505]

@@Boomerrage32 well put

[@HamHamJ1]

While I am unfamiliar with the specific context of the scene, to me her comment seems less about him not serving in the military and more about a division between individuals and systems that backed the rebel alliance and those that remained loyal to the Empire until it fell apart, or even just remained "neutral".

[@f5boDag]

I actually think that is closer to truth. Then again already the claim of fascism seems exaggerative. Even without the context of her character it comes off more as her being a revolutionary veteran with some paranoia, so closer to real life post war hawks & the like.

[@kingofhearts3185]

It worth noting he mischaracterized the incident too. It wasn't a minor skirmish, it was high level corruption and infiltration of a key facility by agents of a foreign government, which Xiono was also a part of. The threat is very real and Xiono is being accused of being a part of it, and we later learn he's acting beyond his authority by not getting the head of the defense council involved in this debate.

[@redhausser7492]

Accidentally? edit: considering Hera was practically raised in warfare her entire life, it makes some sense she doesn't really understand how a republic works

[@TemplinInstitute]

she should read The Trail of Political Consciousness by Karis Nemik

[@Hk121394]

The Alliance of Free Planets was a dictatorship under mon momtha in the EU, before establishing a democracy after the retaking of coruscant and electing Leia as chief of stat

[@JediLordNathan]

@@TemplinInstituteTo which I reply disrespecting the politicians of an elected government is not fascism that is basic common sense. Her remarks to the Senator in question are perfectly reasonable look the way I see things is that civilians shouldn't be telling people with military experiance how to do their job unless they happen to have served previously if you don't know what the hell you are talking about cannot relate to people you are trying to discuss things with then you have by very nature admitted you know nothing. Look I hate how this version of the New Republic is so incompetent that they let Imperial Warlords still act around and have a power base especially when compared to the EU New Republic which would have never behaved this way even at its worst under Borsk Fe'leya this senator makes Borsk look competent by comparison because at least Borsk actually fought in the Galactic Civil War he was the Bothan agent that delivered the Second Death Star plans to the Rebels and the soul survivor of the Many Bothans that died to bring the information to the Rebels. This guy has no military experience didn't take any part in the war and as Hera stated waited to see who came out on top. In my opinion if you don't actually take part in a conflict you aren't in a position to lecuture those that have I don't lecture my parents on military matters as I haven't served in the military they have; the same applies here. Also again I'm not rooting for this guy he is an embodiment of EVERYTHING wrong with Disney's version of the New Republic its behaving like the old one and doomed to fail by repeating the same mistake. The fact is the galaxy needs to have some form of major military power to deal with a good amount of its problems local sector forces are not enough because of the wealth gaps between the Core Worlds and the Rim Worlds be that Inner, Mid or Outer Rim. Which incidently what you are seeing here is a clash between a Senator from a Core World with a General from an Outer Rim World a person who has not seen war let alone knows how bad it is against someone who has spent her whole life in conflict, Ryloth was subjected to slavery for thousands of years and still was by the time of the Clone Wars with Twi'leks still being taken and sold often enough by their own people and then the CIS invaded and subjected them to hell, the Republic drove the CIS out but became the Empire and the Empire being built off of Sith designs abused the people of Ryloth even worse the CIS Hera lost her mother to the Empire and basically had her childhood destroyed by it. Also Hera is not a fascist she is a militarist and those two entirely seperate things you can be a Republic and have a strong military to safeguard it just look at the USA it has the strongest military on the planet yet remains a free Republic with the people having better rights and living conditions compared to the rest of the world. Fascism is what the Empire was and if anything the New Republic itself is becoming fascistic by allowing former Imperials without throughly vetting them to take jobs and places in government. By the way what was the lesson of the Galactic Civil War? That lesson was that if you wanted to stop a repressive and evil regime you had to fight back and when that regime is gone you need to take measures to prevent it from rising again, the military was not the issue with the Empire it was the fact that it used that military and a host of other government institutions to exert control over every aspect of a persons life creating a system of prejudices and cruelties. If the New Republic wanted to prevent the Empire's return instead of demiliterizing to the extent they have use the forces they have to break the powers of warlords, invest resources in improving the worlds the core forgets and honestly do what the EU version of the New Republic did after Endor; it worked the Empire basically was confined to a rump state in the Outer Rim on Bastion and the Galaxy had peace until the Vong showed up and ruined everything for everyone, which by the way its due to political management like this that allowed the Vong to do as much damage as possible even pushing to Coruscant which they took and terraformed killing a good amount of the New Republic's political leadership including the Chief of State the aforementioned Borsk Fe'leya.. The issue is here is that the New Republic leaders from the core worlds don't know how to actually have a Republic apart from Mon Mothma and the few remaining old guard that were alive for the Old Republic's fall none of them really know what a Republic is and I'll argue they don't even know what a Republic is as a Republic is a democratic system with many checks and balances to prevent abuse of power by one person or a group of people over others, it is meant to protect the people from their government and the minority from the majority. And again being a militarist is NOT the same as facism by even claiming that Hera is a Fascist means you don't know what that means: want an example of a fascist in Star Wars Well the entire Galactic Empire is a Fascistic regime ruled by a Sith autocrat it exerts control and its response to criticisms is to kill any opposition, something that Hera clearly doesn't want to do, what she wants is the New Republic to actually do the job of protecting its citizens making sure that the regime they overthrew never returns and really for the Core Worlds to stop fucking over the Rim Worlds which they've done for thousands of years and basically what this Senate is full of are people that want to return to the status quo that caused the Empire to come into being to begin with meaning that these people learned nothing from the conflict at all that being that freedom is something that you only have as long as you have the ability to fight to keep that freedom, once you have freedom you safeguard it with your own arms and laws want to know why it is nobody has tried to form a repressive government in the USA its because people have the ability to fight against that both in the military and the populace. Hera is not a fascist she is a militarist and a common sense idealist that wants to protect the freedoms the New Republic won by defeating the Empire and make sure that said Empire can never rise to threaten the people of the galaxy as a major threat again, basically wiping out the hostile factions that want to see a return to Palpatine's day and all the work thrown to it. Anyway I've made my point here and if you disagree do so in a civil manner, if it cannot be done civilly then you are giving into Fascistic principles as the main principle of Fascism is refusing to debate your critics and attacking them.

[@thomastakesatollforthedark2231]

​@@JediLordNathanJesus Christ this couldn't be its own comment?

[@xavierladik1212]

Retype with punctuation?

[@h4xorzist]

Too little to call fascist as her behavior is merely undemocratic. But also, her behavior is only different to real generals in the sense that she disobeys orders instead of stretching them to the limits like many others have done. I'm not saying all military leadership are maniacs, but such people tend to be promoted and the bombardment with patriotism does fuck with a normal conscious.

[@anothermilkshake]

Merely undemocratic?

[@h4xorzist]

@@anothermilkshake Jep that's literally all that was substanciated and given democracy is on one side while amost any bad ideology is on the other, it cannot be nailed down to fashism. She could be anything, including fashism.

[@anothermilkshake]

@@h4xorzist merely undemocratic is like saying merely treasonous

[@h4xorzist]

@@anothermilkshake I'm not making an in-universe moral statement. I simply making the observation, that not being democratic is the norm for all ideologies that were ignored in favor of fascism.

[@anothermilkshake]

@@h4xorzist you are by using the word merely. Words have meaning.

[@icyguy2547]

It would be awesome to see a show about a hero of the Rebellion turning against the New Republic and joining the First Order. Having them be motivated by the inevitability of the former’s defeat would not only be intriguing in and of itself but open up the door for interesting commentary on the repetitive nature of the Star Wars movies.

[@thevoron1]

Not just the movies, but universe it self.

[@urbangradisek5695]

it is basicli the annakin story lol only it is republic not the new republick anyways it was done

[@xavierladik1212]

^Yeah, a more sensitive look at Anakin’s story would hit this idea. It would have to be an angle that explores the ideology and wartime changes more than exploring the temptation of the dark side. Seeing someone go from Rebellion to First Order is a little difficult when the First Order is almost cartoonishly evil and lacks an effective ideology.

[@jacobberg373]

What a Rebel would willingly join a group that demands the restoration of the Empire, the very tyrannical government that they helped overthrow, what sort of sense does that make?

[@erikanders3343]

The New Order was speciesist and also fascist. No, they would likely just be disaffected and jaded. The reality that those veterans of the rebellion to restore the republic would know is fascists always lose... they are like most loki's doomed by their nature.

[@OseronPhaer]

I definitely think it's an accident. I'm inclined to think that whoever wrote these scenes (whether it was Filoni or someone else) does not think Hera was in the wrong. Worse, I sincerely doubt they thought through the implications of Hera's behavior in the slightest. It'd be awesome if it was an attempt to be a deeper dive into a corrupt government, undermined the whole time...but properly and seriously written, it would still need to address Hera's insubordination in a meaningful fashion.

[@robmclean4352]

It was just an excuse for the audience to say, "You go, green girl! Smash the patriarchy!"

[@Stlaind]

I also think there was at one point supposed to be more media showing struggles between the former rebels and the new political structure as well as the New Republic struggling with corruption, as most insurgencies that win do actually fail to build a stable government. Add in that Hera grew up during the clone wars and her father was a reknowned insurgent, who she probably saw approach problems in this exact same fashion, and it's not difficult to see how she would act like this. Hera isn't completely right, and she is undoubtedly used to being able to exercise force and apply the forces at her command as she sees fit. That's the way insurgency cells operate after all. At the same time, Ahsoka definitely needed more run time, and the lack of any kind of explanation here is telling about that. The senator here was a perfect chance for Hera to recount the events of Lothal, and for the audience to see it in flashbacks. Instead, we get a few cheap comments that undermine a character who has previously been one of the best new characters added to the universe in my opinion.

[@Boomerrage32]

@@robmclean4352 I don't think you need to bring patriarchy or the smashing of some glass ceiling into this to explain the intent of the writers. It's just that Syndulla is a 'beloved' character from one of those cartoon shows that no true Star Wars fan would give a damn about.

[@boobah5643]

@@Stlaind Considering how poorly _Ahsoka_ used the time it had, I'm not convinced throwing more run-time is the solution.

[@grawlix-man463]

​@@Boomerrage32"one of those cartoon shows that no true star wars fan cares about" hope you mostly mean Rebels, cause damn you just gonna throw the clone wars under the bus like that?

[@TexanFlyingDino]

She just witnessed not too long ago how the empire still has their fingers in the everyday life of non-Rebellion members. She probably doesn't trust him because of that. He's just a civilian who could absolutely be a fan of the empire still. A person who never joined or fought against the empire in anyway shape or form a man who waited to see which way the war went before he jumped on board with one side or the other. I'd bet money that it has nothing to do with him just being a civilian, but him being someone who didn't care who won because he would be on the winners' side.

[@kingofhearts3185]

Exactly! The threat is very real and Xiono is being accused of being a part of it given his past affiliation, the incident happened because imperial era officials were left in charge of something important. Especially when we learn from a later hearing that the senator was out of line to give those orders without the head of the defense committee (Leia) being brought in and a vote being held. When Leia found out what was happening she gave Here her support, hence the "I was ignoring you" line being true. He didn't have the authority to give her orders like that. Which adds to the idea that he's loyalty is questionable at best since he was making a power play without the authority to do so. And that's ignoring evidence he's a first order collaborator from elsewhere.

[@Fordo007]

let's not forget when Palpatine declared the Empire all the democratically elected senators were cheering. For people who fought the Empire what value does a democratically elected government have at that point? I'm sure some Rebels want the Old Republic back but how many Rebels see the Old Republic and the Empire as the same thing? If one Republic can allow itself to become the Empire and suppress and enslave and destroy worlds... why should they have some sacred view of civilian leadership given their history with it?

[@Hartzilla2007]

Counterpoint the guy Hera is in conflict with is having votes on denying military action while excluding people who both disagree with him and can probably convince other people to vote against what he wants aka Leia despite being on said council. So he's basically getting slapped down for playing petty power games.

[@kingofhearts3185]

Worse than that, Leia is the head of the council. It was completely out of line for him to overstep like that (and probably illegal in its own right).

[@boobah5643]

Mon Mothma is the senior legislator there; it's _her_ job to discipline him, not some general. That she didn't implies he's within his rights. And if Leia _is_ on this particular committee, it's her own damn fault for not showing up to meetings. One of the more basic rules is that you have to show up to have a vote.

[@kingofhearts3185]

@@boobah5643 While there's the meta reason Leia isn't there, it's mentioned that she wasn't told it was happening. A sloppy contrivance considering they recreated her in rogue one but that's on the studio and her family to decide together.

[@michaelramon2411]

The Legends continuity had a similar problem (I'd say much worse) where New Republic civilian authorities were constantly unhelpful or incompetent while the military leaders tended to be more correct. Some of that was from a certain military fetishism but a lot of it was just the fact that Star Wars is usually about one cargo ship full of weirdos saving the day, and the government being highly competent gets in the way of that. The problem is when you keep doing it over and over again.

[@thelordofcringe]

Its perfectly realistic. It is statistically, historically, philosophically, endlessly proven that the more distributed and less centralized the levels of power, the more efficient the individual pieces of a nation, organization, etc are. A galactic level of government is inevitably going to be laughably out of touch and incompetent on a level you would find comical.

[@publiusventidiusbassus1232]

@@thelordofcringe Correct. Administration has been the number 1 reason giant empires fall apart. Furthermore, the most competent statesmen in history often had a military background, or where at the least great strategists. Notice how every single state in history had its peak during the same time their military was at its most efficient. The "cycle" of Star Wars governments being incompetent only to be saved, overtaken or replaced by far more competent entities with a strong military as its backbone is quite literally how every single soverign state in history has come to be, and so continues to this day.

[@lordofthepies]

It doesn't help that just the nature of space scifi means planets are treated more as ports of call for X adventure to occur on rather than a living place.

[@carstontoedter1333]

You realize that action stories will inevitably glorify those who take action in a crisis? That's not military fetishism that's just telling an exciting story. Go write a story about a politician pushing a minor tax bill through in a Senate hearing and see how that's received.

[@medicentio]

Jin Erso and Cassian Andor had to ignore the decison of the Alliance council to get what they needed to win against the DS-1 battlestation. Luke Skywalker ignored his orders to take down a tailing interceptor in the raid on Sullust and gained a disgruntled imperial intelligence officer who provided vital operational details on the DS--2 Battlestation. We can even call into evidence the master of not following orders, Anakin Skywalker, who ignored them to get the job done. Here, Hera is proving that the threat that looms is a great one, and she knows it well. She ignored orders not because she wanted a new fight, but because she knows they are stupid and blind to the depth of the incoming danger. In the context of the Star Wars universe, this is common to see, especially since politicians are either stupid or corrupt, as we have seen in the different media within this universe (Rebels, Clone Wars, the prequels, etc.)

[@TemplinInstitute]

🌟 NEW FEATURE ANNOUNCEMENT 🚀 Hey Star Wars fans! We're excited to unveil a brand new feature on our channel, and trust us, it's out of this galaxy! 🌌 If your comment consists solely of "Disney Star Wars bad", brace yourself... 🎟 You're eligible for a FREE trip to the Narkina V Correctional Facility! All part of our SHADOWBAN Program!🎟 Yes, you heard it right! Be a whiny lameoid about Star Wars lore and find yourself in the infamous Narkina V Correctional Facility. The duration of your stay is predetermined, the quality of that stay will be up to you!

[@KaiserStormTracking]

This is probably something the directors of Rise of Skywalker would do if they could lol

[@chimera9818]

Counter way to look at it could be that high respect for the military rise in democratic systems and even in fully democratic nations today having the elected official serve in the military to some countries is view has very important, if the writing was smarter it could have shown that it with mix of politics that push for independent actions now need to deal with functional regular military and the problems that rise when the new government that has lots of people that didn’t came from military jobs clash with people that value military a lot but still respect democracy (you can be both contrary to western beliefs) and the mix with rise of independents actions is what results in the disarmament of the military from the elected officials fear of coup and rise of another empire (even if the generals don’t want to coup just frustrated)

[@commentator4515]

That was insubordination, dereliction of duty, disrespect of authority, desertion, etc... But not fascism. Fascism is everything within the state, nothing outside the state and nothing against the state. It was an offshoot of communism when it mingled with Italian syndicalism. It is a merging of state and corporation, where only one party exists. Usually ruled by a central figure, always has centralised control of social life and the economy. Doens't allow any opposition, criticism or dissent, and has strong nationalistic tendencies. None of which applies to what Hera did.

[@insectostrich4407]

What’s your opinion on the Mercenary Syndicate from Apex Legends? From what I’ve heard they have an interesting way to govern planets.

[@xavierladik1212]

Neat, I’ve always wanted to stay at the most advanced prison facilities that the Empire has to offer

[@projectblitz7290]

I think you're forgetting some vital subtext to Hera's statement. If you have seen the very good, albeit lost in the shuffle series that was Andor, you'd know that even at the peak power of the empire, there were still senators like Mon Mothma was at the time of Andor. Point is there must have been other senators prior to the full blow rebellion and prior the new republic. I think Hera's accusation comes from the opinion or maybe she even knew of Senator Xiono and his actions or lack thereof during the rebellion and knew or believes he personally is only interested in preserving personal power and was always willing to side with whoever won the war so as to keep his senator seat. Perhaps he supported the rebels only after they won, at least that is what I thought was implied with Hera's statement, Xiono's lack of rebuttal, compounded by Mon Mothma's silence - an indication he was only there because he held a seat of power in the universe. Mon Mothma may not have fought but she definitely served the rebellion as likely did other senators.

[@BorderLanderr]

You are correct. He never spent to much as a single credit to help the rebellion. The last battle had been fought and was over before he came forward. He was also openly corrupt, and abused his position constantly, even when confronted by other senators.

[@boobah5643]

Assuming all of this is correct... why would Mon Mothma put him on a committee providing military oversight? Even if she can't expel him, she's going to control committee assignments.

[@projectblitz7290]

@@boobah5643 Maybe he had a lot of money and resources that could benefit the new government? Maybe there's a lot of other senators backing him. Maybe she's trying to show that forgiveness is available to everyone if they're willing to work for it.

[@NinjaOtter1209]

Considering that he's literally a First Order agent responsible for billions of deaths, I think Hera's skepticism of his motives was well warranted.

[@dankuser8303]

I like how the New Republic has been portrayed as flawed in canon. It’s genuinely hard to build a government from scratch, especially one that’s on an intergalactic scale. Though I still think it’s maybe portrayed a little too poorly sometimes. Something else to consider is that the idea of running a military by a council of senators seems a little stupid. Now sure for something like declaring war or deciding budgets, sure ok that makes sense. But why the hell are members of the civilian government commanding the NR’s defense force on the operational level and responsible for telling individual commanders their orders. I could maybe see Mothma as the chief executive being responsible, but even then Generals should be given far more authority then Hera has been given. Either ways, I wonder if Templin’s alternate NR timeline fits into this?

[@IRGodful]

In the US, the Department of Defense receives its marching orders from the President through the Secretary of Defense, while Congress provides oversight for their conduct through various committees and subcommittees. It would be strange for US Senators to have this kind of influence on policy, but I don't think the NR has an executive branch like the USAs

[@marcelgrabowski5939]

Honestly I believe it is they attempt to look less like empire so badly, that they overdone it in the second direction. It is consistent theme with New Republic.

[@alexander9703]

@@IRGodful ​ Indeed it doesn't. The New Republic, like the Old Republic, isn't presidential, it's parliamentary. And in parliamentary systems, elected representatives are ministers and do have this kind of influence on policy.

[@baronjutter]

What drives me nuts is that it doesn't really present believable or realistic flaws. They just write it as cartoonishly incompetent without really digging into why or exploring how post-revolutionaries states can so easily fail.

[@Alpha_Digamma]

They're not building from scratch though. They're just taking back Palpatines reforms. The rebels didn't call themselves "alliance to restore the republic" for nothing. It's more like the current writing room doesn't really understand the IP.

[@collecter343]

I took the comment of her asking whether Xiono served or not as more did he participate at all in the rebellion before hand, in other words organized supplies, talked people into helping them and other forms of support more suitable for a politician, not whether he literally fought physically. It's implied he just waited on the side and did nothing in support. Still a crass statement but she seemed convinced that he would have been fine supporting whichever side came out on top.

[@danielwolfgang8234]

Honestly, considering that he refused his own Son in finding the Resistance during the events of the Sequels, because he wanted to protect his own hide, (after the destruction of Hosnian Prime, his own Homeworld) it´s likely he also just watched from the side lines, not taking any action to help in any non-combative form either during the Galactic Civil War.

[@francesco8000]

The problem with star wars is that it is both really simple good vs evil and pretty complicated political commentary (basically trilogy 1 and 2) and these do not work very well. In the classic "good vs evil "the general is simply the good guy that does the good guy thing and saves the day against the jerk. In the more complex political commentary she is one of the most dangerous thing any country could see, expecially a new unstable country founded after a massive civil war. Star wars writers are not very good at sticking with one tone so most of what we get is extremely mixed and good opportunities are wasted. It doesn't help that Filoni and the other that are currently making decisions are more interested in making cameos than actually moving the story forward (i'm kinda waiting for Filoni to say that Ahsoka was the real chosen one).

[@khylerbane4523]

EXACTLY! Star Wars needs to officially pick one; whether good vs evil or complex grey area storytelling, and *commit* to it. Because at this point I am don’t care at all nor not interested in them trying to be both.

[@helwrecht1637]

This is not what fascism is. Simply undermining a civilian government for your military goal doesn’t make you fascist. Hera brings forth basically zero principles of fascism in her debate with the senator. A Soviet general could have made the same argument to his boss post ww2 and he would have been just as communist as he was before hand. Fascism isn’t just militarism.

[@Lightscribe225]

...and yet that's how military juntas are formed.

[@KosherCookery]

Not all military regimes are fascist and not all fascist regimes are military regimes. Indeed, there tends to be little overlap because fascist objectives tend to be destructive to the military's sectional interests. I'd also note that anti-institutionalism and anti-democracy are not quite the same thing. Syndulla might well oppose the new state structures without opposing democratic principles-indeed, we very deliberately don't know much about the New Republic's structure-that it includes monarchial figures suggests it's not truly democratic. Civil-military relations are different in every society and there's a reason for that.

[@bengale9977]

This video is very confused about what it means to be democratic and what it means to be fascist. The argument was basically "she isn't acting like a US general would, therefore she is fascist".

[@AndrewJamesWilliams]

I think the problem here is that the New Republic has somewhat overcompensated for the fact that under the Empire the military could do whatever it wanted, whenever it wanted and the political leadership - in the powerless talking shop that was the Imperial Senate - couldn't do anything about it. Now the Senators have power over military affairs again and they're overcompensating by micromanaging everything which leads to military personnel feeling frustrated, undervalued and ignored as from other bits of dialogue I get the impression that Xiono is somewhat infamous for his political interference with things that are really outside his area of responsibility.

[@kingofhearts3185]

It's worth noting you mischaracterized the incident and power dynamics here. It wasn't a minor skirmish, it was high level corruption and infiltration of a key military production facility by agents of a foreign government, which Xiono was also a part of. It was pointed out he was an imperial official that never joined or supported the rebellion in any way during the actual war, just sticking around after they won. The threat is very real and Xiono is being accused of being a part of it given his past affiliation, the incident happened because imperial era officials were left in charge of something important. Soldiers have a right to refuse unreasonable orders, that's why "I was just following orders" isn't a defense in front of a war crime tribunal. On the topic of orders we later learn he's acting beyond his authority by not getting the head of the defense council (Leia) involved in this debate, hence the "I was ignoring you" line being true. He didn't have the authority to give her orders like that.

[@92HazelMocha]

Exactly.

[@Egeslean]

Even if that's all 100% factual and accurate, the show does an absolutely shitty job conveying important information to the viewers, which still makes this bad, just for a different reason. It's just one more example of why 90% of Disney's Star Wars is trash and should be thrown out completely.

[@kingofhearts3185]

@@Egeslean That summarizes my disappointment with this whole show pretty well. Nothing is ever explained or shown to the audience, just jangling the keys and hoping cheap nostalgia bait will stop people from asking questions. I didn't even bother watching kenobi or boba fett considering what was said about them, but I thought this had a chance to be decent. Honestly andor and most of bad batch seem to be the only thing worth watching at this point. And even those still have their problems.

[@akale2620]

Too much cherry picking by the templin institute

[@billykorando]

Yea, felt like show telegraphed very hard that the senator was corrupt/hard imperial sympathies/trying to undermine the Republic. Hera attacking the senator was the writers ways of telling the viewers that this senator was not to be trusted. Ashoka wasn’t particularly well written, so I understand the points Templin is making, but agree they are taking it too far. And also not acknowledging that military officers would have trouble following orders from someone they believe to be corrupt.

[@bjang05]

“Good soldiers follow orders.” -Templin Institute, 2023

[@FortuitusVideo]

Not since Nuremberg.

[@Croz89]

It might lend some credibility to why the first order completely steamrollered the new republic, if the relationship between the civilian government and armed forces completely broke down because neither side trusted the other, then I can see why starkiller base was able to be constructed unchecked.

[@erikanders3343]

well you forget by the time of Force awakens the military was mothballed and officers disbanded.

[@Croz89]

@@erikanders3343 Is that canon? Because I don't really see any evidence either way.

[@erikanders3343]

@@Croz89 It is, look at Rebels and final season of Clone wars, second season of Bad Batch.

[@Croz89]

@@erikanders3343 Those are both set before the original trilogy though, they deal with the galactic empire so are irrelevant here.

[@erikanders3343]

@@Croz89 Thought this was a different thread. SO on the "well you forget by the time of Force awakens the military was mothballed and officers disbanded." Military Disarmament Act - "It is vital we demilitarize our government so that a galactic war cannot happen like this again." ―Chancellor Mon Mothma Source Aftermath book "Local defense forces meanwhile made due with the slightly older T-70 X-wing models, whose operations were guided by individual Republic senators. The bulk of the starfleet remained with the Senate itself, protecting the Republic's capital world which moved to member planets on a rotating basis" Before the Awakening book "After nearly three decades of the Republic's disarmament, most starfleet patrol and enforcement work was carried out by squadrons of newer T-85 X-wings based out of outposts like the one on Mirrin Prime. The duties of these squadrons strictly applied only to the protection of trade lanes from criminal groups like the Hutt Cartel, the Guavian Death Gang," Star Wars: Battles that Changed the Galaxy Galactic Empire in the Databank - starwars official site Lost Stars

[@ecthelionofgreg8573]

One thing that should have come up is the reason General Syndulla wanted to investiage the Denab system in the first place - a massive SSD hyperdrive core was stolen from a New Republic shipyard by agents of unconfirmed origin, believed to be headquartered in the Denab system. At the very least, it would be appropriet to send a scouting force to check if there is evidence that stolen NR property is present.

[@timhare9867]

Good video, but unfortunately I couldn’t disagree with you more on Hera’s actions here, and I think every point she made was valid. Context of course is key, and the context here is that the war that overthrew Palpatine’s regime and restored the New Republic wasn’t a war between two sovereign states with their own respected governments with their own systems of checks and balances. It was a civil war for control of one theocratically democratic system. Palpatine rose to power legally, through powers given to him through a democratically elected system and senate. He enslaved, brutalised, mass murdered and systematically stripped of their rights to equality millions if not billions of sentient species legally, with the help of a democratically elected senate, and the institutions that supported them. Then those exact same institutions switched sides once they saw the tide of conflict had turned against the Empire, where as people like Hera fought against the odds from day one, against a system they knew was evil, even if it had the support of a legitimately elected senate. So I think Hera is 100% right to call out that senator in the way she did. She’s seen what trusting in the system and following orders you know to be unethical or dangerous gets you and those you love. In fact I’d argue it’s exactly this mentality of ‘trust in the system no matter the cost’ that’s closer to fascism, as fascists tend prioritise unity and conformity at all costs. Everything Hera said in these scenes as far as I’m aware is the truth. That senator didn’t serve in the military like she did, and presumably he only swore allegiance to the New Republic at a point when it appeared the Republic would prevail, just like she stated. None of that is lies unless I’m mistaken, and a society that isn’t afraid to hold its leaders to account shouldn’t have any reason to fear the truth, no matter how inconveniently timed such points are raised.

[@kerianhuertas1586]

We could compare Syndulla to "Black Jack" Geary from the Lost Fleet. Whereas Syndulla doesn't fear bringing on the foreground the skeletons in the closets of her governemnt, Geary knows that he must not undermine the institutions of his. It is explained multiple times in the books, the main reasons are : it's not his job or undermining the Alliance would just make a coup from his own fleet more likely, which would probably increase the corruption of the officials. Broke english, sorry guys

[@Bluehairedgirl89]

Yes! The lost fleet series is amazing at explaining the roles a high ranking officer needs to take in a democratic system, even when pushed to the very limit.

[@kerianhuertas1586]

@@Bluehairedgirl89 One minute of silence for Black Jack who even though he asked nothing was tasked to manage more than a hundred mutinous, hyperaggressive morons.

[@gusgunter6431]

I think reading this as a starship troopers moment instead of the fact that the senator was clearly a fencer sitter during the galactic civil war is kinda dumb.

[@gusgunter6431]

Also Hera comes nowhere near meeting the definition of a fascist. At best she’s displaying some campist or stratocratic tendencies.

[@this_isnt_patrick]

Oh this comment section is gonna be fun! 🍿 🍿

[@Sifeus]

The 4chan fash are gonna simultaneously say "yeah based" and also "no no it isn't" it's gonna be incoherent. Edit: They're here. They're still mad about XX chromosome space marines.

[@DerpsWithWolves]

It feels to me like Hera being granted the rank of general was a mistake... First of all, she was primarily a pilot during the rebellion, so wouldn't *admiral* have been more fitting between the two? But, more importantly, she's not qualified for either job... She was a scrappy resistance fighter, not someone with formal training as an officer, experience managing logistics, higher-level planning, or leading a group larger than a couple dozen people within her own resistance cell. It wouldn't be reasonable to expect those things from her - or a lot of political decorum - when she earned her stripes by causing trouble and blowing things up. I see Hera as the living embodiment of the classic "I hate being behind a desk" kind of commander, and would probably be thrilled if she got a demotion. I would be unsurprised if it was revealed her rank and position were granted as a (ill-conceived) 'thank-you' for her service during the uprising, and have no bearing on anything else. Perhaps making her a general, rather than an admiral, was a way to curtail her ability to shuffle capital ships around and make too much of a mess - which seems to have partially worked; all she was able to rally was barely a single wing of sympathetically-minded mixed fighter pilots and her own personal ship.

[@xavierladik1212]

I see what you mean. It’s worth pointing out that she has been General Hera Syndulla, addressed as such, longer than the New Republic has been established. This government, and these senators, never appointed or promoted her. It was earned (almost by default) from her days leading a rebel cell (a small fleet of fighters and ground forces). Her role then in the New Republic is… weird. Her rank of General is becoming outdated, literally from another time. Considering that they’re still fighting Imperial Remnants it’s not outdated yet but… she isn’t a peacetime General.

[@LodenVor]

The Rebellion seemed to throw general ranks around like confetti. Han and Lando, for example. That said, at least Lando had experience in logistics, leading people and so on.

[@CrestOfArtorias]

Thats an issue with Star Wars in general, no pun intended. Military structure, terms and hierarchies tend to be all over the place, at least in the newer iterations of the universe.

[@LodenVor]

True enough. I suppose it's easier to assign a well-known senior rank than it is to go with something that might necessitate an explanation of the hierarchy being used.@@CrestOfArtorias

[@DerpsWithWolves]

@@xavierladik1212 That's a fair point. I guess it's more on them for transferring her rank over and letting her keep it, rather than giving it to her... But it's still a problem lol.

[@elliottenglish2388]

I wish more shows would be similar to Battlestar Galactica, a great show with good quotes and common sense.

[@fatalshore5068]

Adama 100% knew the role of the military in a Republic.

[@elliottenglish2388]

Agreed.@@fatalshore5068

[@M-elephant7777]

The Expanse should be your next show if you haven't seen it yet

[@dredeth]

Came to comment this. The Expanse is just too good.

[@marimcgee8379]

Hera knows Thrawn and Thrawn knows about Hera. He had so much info about her and the Phoenix group. Those senators never seen Thrawn up close what kind of Imperal he is.

[@fredrikkirderf2907]

The thing is I disagree with the labelling of Fascism. This attitude is certainly found in Fascism but I still think its misleading. She shares more in common with Tom Cruises character from Top Gun or Jack Ryan. The kind of rebel-hero that don't care about the rules; this kind of hero is really popular in American films. So I'd say she's more maverick than Fascist and at heart still a rebel. Still I really liked this video it's a cool debate to have so thank you genuinely

[@loosetongue2110]

Template institute not knowing what Fascism is fucking ironic or they do and just want to garner more attention. Either way the word “Fascism” should be used with great care as it could undermines the severity of that movement. Honestly disappointing.

[@andreaspedersen3952]

You got to remember one thing: Hera didn't get where she was for nothing. Yes she did some great errors, as Echarts-ladder said in a recent video. But because she had no formal education, and had to learn the hard way. Still, she was one of few who always stood up against the empire, and had to face some great losses, like the loss of her husband. Probably very unlike the senator, who obviously got on top of it by bending away from the wind. Syndulla was also a channel for information during the war, and I would guess she knew something more about him? Or heard some rumours about his dealings during the war? It might explain her outburst against him. As we saw on the place where old spaceships were "scrapped": the empire had loyalists in most sectors of the new republic. For all we know: Xiono could very well be an abler/disabler. making sure that the military doesnt get the funds needed, or as in this case thwarting investigations into the rumours. I believe there's more to him than meets the eye.

[@kingofhearts3185]

He mischaracterized the incident too. It wasn't a minor skirmish, it was high level corruption and infiltration of a key facility by agents of a foreign government, which Xiono was also a part of.

[@reganator5000]

@@kingofhearts3185 it's more 'agents of the previous administration'. Whilst the empire was really, really bad, the galactic senate was only not in session for 4 years, and given senators aren't elected officials, I'd imagine you can mostly just find out where the old ones were.

[@kingofhearts3185]

@@reganator5000 My point is that given the fact that Xiono is an ex imperial official in a position of power, same as the people on Corellia, there's good reason to be suspicious of him blocking the investigation.

[@lonewanderer2797]

I got a question.What exactly makes Hera a so called "fascist" and what's the exactly the definition of fascism? If someone in the military undermines a politician like Hera did that automatically makes them a fascist? Then we should call her a communist? Communists used the same methods after all like the police being militarized/or the military doing police works.The suppression of the freedom of speech and so on.Every dictatorship does this regardless of the political side(right or left).The use of the term fascism is annoying,because fascism is a specific political ideology, and that political ideology is not in Hera's DNA,in short if someone disagrees with you or says something you don't like, that doesn't make them a fascist. I like this channel but this one the perfect example of "the one I disagree with is a fascist". In this case with Hera because you don't agree with Hera. Disagreeing with someone is completely fine and it should be encouraged but calling someone a fascist just because you don't agree with them is something else.Sure she was confrontational and hostile but she just has an hate for politicians,she obviously gave a bad example but that doesn't mean she's a fascist.Hera is the only one that saw the threat in the new republic. A republic that inherited the worst trait of the empire:burocracy.

[@NinjaOtter1209]

For Neoliberals like the Templin author, questioning the motives of powerful people with known fascist sympathies is the real fascism. That's respectability politics for you.

[@stageblood9935]

spot the fascist

[@El-Hugger]

@@stageblood9935​​⁠​⁠Nah he has a point, to call fascist someone like her would put many movement pre fascist as fascists, (like, half of the dictatorship in Latam at the 19th and start of the 20th would fit in that basket)

[@ryantay9642]

@stageblood9935 “Anyone I disagree with is a fascist!”

[@matthewdrews]

I remember a general in the original Star Wars who went "Solo" - literally shooting from the hip. The writers for this show have the pretty complex task of writing characters that were cartoons, humanizing them, and aging them in a post Empire script. No easy task. I think the only issue I have with the line ("Have you ever served"?) is that it's used in nearly every high-government-official-confronts-military-hot-head scene of every movie since...Hollywood? It could be Hera realizes she should not be a general and resigns to find her friends, in which case you could call that statement foreshadowing.

[@moritamikamikara3879]

There is a word for that yes, but it isn't Fascist. If I were a senator in the new republic, I would not worry that Hera was a Fascist, i would worry that she was a caesar.

[@redleaderantilles1263]

Oh shit, she is a Bonapartist

[@merafirewing6591]

If I were an old-fashioned Republic Navy warhorse. I would rather have nothing to do with the New Republic and trust my gut over politicians.

[@commanderneyo]

I think thats part of the beauty of the series is that the New Republic is such a flawed government that they're having trouble shaking the chains of Fascism and having to adjust to a time that has Imperial sympathizers going back into the public realm. Its the flaws of early democracy and its interesting

[@rodvafe]

I believe that could lead to even better writing. As the New Order is defeated and the third republic is created, how would it look like? Would it repeat that naivette that led to the New Republic collapse, or embrace pragmatism and form a more cynical third republic, which could create an even more interesting conflict down the road

[@TemplinInstitute]

I would absolutely agree with you if I didn't think a lot of this stuff was unintentional. But who knows, maybe that Mandoverse movie will make me look like an idiot (or genius?!) for pointing this out.

[@everettjohnson9374]

​@TemplinInstitute I fully believe this was intentional, it's been an ongoing issue with the new republic.

[@commanderneyo]

@TemplinInstitute it'd be cool if they did, I feel like that's been a bit of the direction they've been going especially with the books. Whole Era is getting development and seeing the fragility of a new democracy with fascists at all levels of government is a very unique angle to take.

[@commanderneyo]

@rodvafe the fact the creation of multiple republics with someone who's pfp is a French flag is hilariously ironic 😂

[@JMD501]

If they were in public having this conversation, I would agree, but in a private security council words can't be minced. I also don't know the actual structure of the new republic or military. I mean are those senators her direct boss? How does that work? Honestly, it's my problem with a lot of "political" sci-fi and fantasy, they never spend the time to thoroughly explain their systems. I understand why, because that's usually boring and eats time. There are only a few examples of shows that do this, like The Expanse or GoT.

[@IRGodful]

In these cases it's safest to assume that the military functions like the American one and the government is run off the US Constitution, until directly stated otherwise.

[@kingofhearts3185]

We learn from a later hearing that the senator was out of line to give those orders without the head of the defense committee (Leia) being brought in and a vote being held. When Leia found out what was happening she gave Here her support. So she wasn't actually wrong to ignore him since the orders were invalid.

[@KatamuroTheFirst]

I think there are two things to unpack. She didn't ask him if he fought in the war, she asked him if he was "in" the war. Because plenty of people were "in" without actually picking up weapons. She was pointing out that he was a "johnny come lately" who is now putting up a front of the most arden supporter of the republic. Something that the others, not just Mon Monthma seem to agree because no one else spoke up either. The second thing is that yeah the whole thing about her ignoring orders are bad but was she supposed to follow them? We are not really told what is the working relationship between that guy and her, if he has the authority to give orders to her and just how much leeway generals have with their orders. Is it "advisory" or "strongly suggested"? Because it seems Leia wields the higher power there as evidenced by the outcome. I think what's worse is her flippancy at having ignored the orders and having nothing to show for it really apart from losing several fighters and pilots. She went in understrength into an unknown situation, got her pilots killed and then tries to justify her actions as defending the republic and is again flippant in what seems to be an official meeting. She showed disrespect not just to the annying guy but also to the whole institution because she hoped Leia would get her out of trouble on nothing more than "trust me I was doing the right thing" when it's clear she wasn't doing the right thing.

[@cybersmith_videos]

This is completely leaving out the fact that Xioni was undercutting Senator Organa.

[@jacobberg373]

I don't think Marc really watches Star Wars as much as critiques for his channel

[@Notafed123]

This was such a miss it must’ve been written by a stormtrooper

[@danielwolfgang8234]

Considering Hera´s emphasis on the military service aspect, i´d refer to her in this instance Militarist, if not stratocratic, butnot fascistic. I agree with you that the Military has to serve to protect the citizenry, and has to be subserviant to the Civilian Government. But in turn the Civilian Government has to provide the tools so that the Military can do its duty. And in this scenario their reluctance to heed Heras warning might lead to mass civilian casulties. I agree Heras comments on the Senator Xiono lacking military experience, was uncalled for (considering that he appears to still be very young) and unprofessional to a high degree. But this doesn´t mean they should ignore her Experience, or in this case (at least from my perspective) try to belittle her and accuse her of making such claims for personal gain. His Comment at the start of the Briefing in regards of "a larger operation", in which he answered "it allways does..." sounds to me like he´s brushing this off too easily. Leading me to believe that he didn´t take whatever Hera to say serious from the get-go. As for Xiono being a sympathizer with the imperial Remnants/ first Order, i do not believe that. He may be corrupt to a certain degree, using his influence and wealth to grand his son access to Service in the New Republic Starfighter Korp (for potentially personal gain mind you, bolstering his own standing among the political elite of Hosnian Prime and the new republic). He later on also ignored the warnings of his own Son regarding the First Order, refering to the Resistance as political extemists. Refusing to aid his Son in opposing the First Order to protect his own hide. Which I consider a dereliction of his duty as an elected Official sworn to the New Republic, thus the People that constitute the said Entity.

[@theflyingwelshman5338]

In defense of Hera Syndula, she was from a family of rebels. Cham Syndula was entirely skeptical of all authority. Hera is a maverick who was born to act independently. She despises politics because many of those politicians had oppressed her people.

[@Frosty7575]

Then she probably shouldn't be serving in the military then.

[@Carl_ATHF]

anarkiddie opinions dont matter.

[@theflyingwelshman5338]

@@Carl_ATHF all opinions matter. Funny how you view her as In the wrong for her comments, while at the same time doing exactly what she did.

[@thefatbob3710]

@@theflyingwelshman5338but what opinions have use? Your opinion is harmful as it’s anti science and anti technology.

[@theflyingwelshman5338]

@@Frosty7575 It’s not that easy to quit the only thing you know. While I agree that she shouldn’t be a general, and was likely made one by the New Republic for shallow political reasons, she’s still a good leader because of her initiative. Mavericks are necessary in a military, regardless of what the powers that be state.

[@Balrog2005]

One of the few good things of the Ahsoka serie... New Republic was the Weimar Republic with the security mindset of the WWI winners...

[@CoreysDatapad]

Marc woke up and chose violence. But not the violent oppression of the state as advocated for by Hera Syndulla.

[@James_MacIntyre]

"Good soldiers follow orders." - Templin Institute. This video is an unfettered defense of proceduralism.

[@MrSHADOWANGEL999]

To be fair, the new republic senators weren't doing themselves any favors

[@Treblaine]

This isn't Fascism. If anything this is hinting at militarism which is what happened in Japan in WW2, not Italy. Mussolini made very clear what fascism was, it's "all within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state" it would be fascism if the undue influence was the other way around, where the dominant political party was inveigling into military command structure AND the soldiers in general their political agenda. "one of the defining characteristics of a sovereign state is a monopoly on the use of force" No that's the defining characteristic of anarcho-tyranny/authoritarian states where individuals are defenseless and at the mercy of brutal enforcers that represent either the government or local mobsters. The most fascistic part of this is members of the legislative branch are rocking up to micro-manage a use of executive derived authority. The military chain of command answers up to the top which then answers to the executive. She should NOT respect the importance of this relationship because they do not represent her superiors in a military chain of command. The "broader democratic process" is that senators vote to pass laws. Why are these representatives taking on matters of this particular military operation? They are supposed to be representing their constituents.

[@mek101whatif7]

Mussolini started out as a libertarian in economic policy, and his tirade about the state is inly one of the meany times he contradicted himself. I think fascism can be better underatood not as an ideology, but as a phenomena, in which a state sheds off it's democratic apparatus and incurs in open oppression and violence of those threaning the biggest corporations

[@Treblaine]

@@mek101whatif7 Libertarians in 1910s Italy are completely unrelated to what is known as libertarian today in the west, particularly in the US. That was an extreme left wing movement, Mussolini was a socialist. Decades later conservatives in the US started calling themselves libertarians to distinguish themselves from "liberals" not knowing nor caring about its meaning in Europe from long before WW2. Fascism absolutely was an ideology, they had a party which ruled over a major Axis power in WW2, fascist governments were propped up in countries Germany occupied in WW2. To say fascism is merely a lack of democratic apparatus is astonishingly ignorant and is just repeating communist propaganda as they fancy they are "real democracy" though they always liked the idea of democracy far more than the reality of accepting when the people vote against Marxism. You just do not understand what fascism was, only how it is convenient for Marxists to misrepresent it. Fascism is a horrible ideology and far closer to Marxism than Marxists want anyone to realize.

[@FloppyHardrive1989]

Its not even that Shes carrying out her duty as a defender of the republic

[@TheMastersForge]

What is described here is not Fascism. There are plenty other words to describe it, but it is not Fascism.

[@loosetongue2110]

Yeah, people just throws out the word Fascism without actually know what it is and I find that to be worrisome.

[@A_Khajiit_Has_Wares]

There is a word for that, but it’s not fascist. To call this fascist would come from a fundamental misunderstanding of what fascism actually was. What Hera exhibits here is, at worst, military authoritarianism. That’s not the same thing as a revolutionary, ultranationalist, racial supremacist, pseudo-socialist, largely anti-religious belief system. You’re putting the cart before the horse. National Socialism/fascism used the military and paramilitary forces to destroy the traditional German and Italian societies; societies with their “democratic” decentralization and balance of power between various institutions. It wasn’t the military just deciding one day to overturn society. There is a massive difference between an authoritarian military junta and a totalitarian society. Authoritarianism involves only top down authority, with the state only caring that people obey their relatively limited demands. Totalitarianism involves every part of society controlling every other part. In a totalitarian society, everyone is tyrant and slave at the same time, and only the ideology rules. Just as the corrupted form of aristocracy is oligarchy, and the corrupted form of monarchy is tyranny, the corrupted form of democracy is mob rule, which has been taken to its logical conclusion in the modern world with totalitarianism. By the definition of fascism used in this video, Hera could also be a Stalinist.

[@redleaderantilles1263]

I agree with your point, but Stalin subordinated the military to the party not the other way around. Hera is like a caricature of parts of the military purged in the mid 1930s. No way she would be allowing political commissars on her ship.

[@A_Khajiit_Has_Wares]

@@redleaderantilles1263 This is true

[@tjwarren1677]

Civilian control of the military does not mean that individual senators should need to approve the search & rescue of military assets or the hunting down of already-known fugitives like Morgan Elsbeth. If any oversight is required here, it should be with the Chancellor or War Minister. Hera is rightfully upset that a senator is interfering with the minutiae of her job, especially since his actions hint that he's one of the very large number of Imperial collaborators in the New Republic.

[@ericlondon2663]

Honestly, I think this confrontation and comment was intentional. You are correct with your assessment. Yet I think the writers wanted to emphasize the nature of the New Republic. In context, half of the politicians in that scene were essentially collaborators with a dictatorship because it suited them. As being politicians of the New Republic suits them. Hera dropped that bombshell to show the audience how that pokitican wasn't a former rebel but a career politician willing to tolerate anything to maintain their pampered lives.

[@kingofhearts3185]

It goes a step further in another episode when we learn that Leia needed to be present as the head of the council for them to vote on the mission, so Xiono didn't have the authority to block it the way he did. Given that the skirmish was former imperial officials still loyal to the empire in a key production facility Xiono looks really untrustworthy in the full context.

[@LordCrate-du8zm]

Season 1 of The Mandalorian put it best: "The New Reppublic is a joke."

[@BorderLanderr]

She wouldn't have said that to just any senator, though. He provided exactly zero aid of any kind to the rebellion before the empire fell. If the rebellion had failed, he would have maintained his position in life with no suspicion because there was nothing to suspect. He reaped enormous rewards from the fall the the empire despite not having spent even a single credit to help it happen. He constantly used his position in defiance of republic rules for personal gain, even when directly confronted by other senators. Not only was he corrupt, but he was openly corrupt. She was right to call him out because he was corrupt, and she knew it. He may not have been an imperial, but he acted in the exact same way as the people the rebellion had just removed, so the distinction was moot. The difference between a democratic military and a republic military is that the values and constitution are supreme in a republic, not the democratic representatives. As a republic general, putting a corrupt politician in his place is very much in line with the values of a republic.

[@ryanwaits6733]

The GCW wasn't a traditional war, it was a Revolution to overthrow the central state. In those types of conflicts it is 100% valid to judge and use former service in the following government, especially when the vast majority of former imperials were pardoned and can serve in government. It's unintentional but with the constant Sith conspiracies, resurgent imperials, threats from the unknown, and civil wars the lesson of Star Wars is the Republic needs to be more akin to Heinlein's Starship Troopers than any kind of peaceful democracy.

[@IRGodful]

70% of the Rebel Alliances forces were common criminals and/or wackjobs that liked having organizational backing for what they were going to be doing anyways. The majority of Rebel forces were closer to Han Solo' mercenary mindset than Luke Skywalkers idealism

[@KatamuroTheFirst]

the republic is not really a nation state. It's more of an EU if they had a unified army. Because under the "republic" there are individual governments for planets or even whole sectors that have their own laws, their own police forces, their own armies even.

[@JonBerry555]

I think a more accurate read on this is that the New Republic has structured its Civilian Oversight/Control in a harmful manor. By being afraid to give the military to much power, they are micromanaging it, which is causing military leaders to feel constrained and undervalued by the Civilian Leadership. The Civilian leadership to prevent military abuse of power is micromanaging military at all levels. Its one thing to tell the military they can't send ships into another power's space or to deploy within New Republic space, but another thing to tell the military it can't swing a patrol by an uninhabited and unclaimed system for more intel. This all in turn is leading to a breakdown of Civilian Control as the military leaders feel like they only was to do their job in protecting the New Republic, as given to them by the New Republic, from outside threats is to ignore the orders of the Civilian Leadership. This is leading to friction between the two and the insults being shared. In other words, the New Republic Senators needs to stop micromanaging the military out of fear of abuse of power and start leading the military to inspire respect of Civilian Control, or they will be unable to effectively defend the New Republic when the First Order comes. Oh wait.

[@diegojose4173]

I believe had the Ahsoka series been longer, they would had said something like this.

[@Hartzilla2007]

I think its more one senator playing power games since what shut him down was Leia pointing out he basically did shit behind here back.

[@JonBerry555]

@@Hartzilla2007 that too, but notice how all the other Senators are stepping up to Publicly defend Hera's judgement and call Xiona out.

[@Preppy_Delicious]

"The citizen soldier is fascist" 🤣🤣🤣

[@stoontechguy]

You made a solid argument for her being undemocratic (though she came up through the rebellion this shouldn't be new to her) but not for her being fascist specifically.

[@SuperPirateTom]

If you've not read it yet, Jack Campbell's The Lost Fleet series has a lot to say about the role of military officers in a Democracy in wartime, and their duty towards civilian leaders, particularly when those Civilian leaders aren't necessarily making the best decisions for the best reasons.

[@bluespace6199]

we're could I read it?

[@michaelman957]

Legends New Republic was also flawed, but, like most of Legends, it's better handled. It felt like how an actual government would work in the wake of the Galactic Civil War.

[@Hk121394]

Along with a myriad of warlord factions from old imperial admirals, moffs, and even captains

[@f5boDag]

I mean legends New Republic was particularly flawed in the sense that it was a utopia of pure purity goodness unless it was run by the one alien leader that they had which was the Bothan guy. Like I won't argue if the Legends the NR comes of as cooler it does, but I prefer a flawed one that explores why the ideal of restoring the Republic that became the Empire is flawed & most be worked out, which admittedly only side materials are doing & the canon movies didn't much care to do.

[@IRGodful]

I miss Borsk Fey'l'la

[@michaelman957]

@@IRGodful Agreed. He was a fascinating villain and one of the best parts of the Legends Canon.

[@michaelman957]

Indeed. It made perfect sense why the New Republic didn't just get smashed, because the Empire fragmented, but the Empire was still a threat. @@Hk121394

[@michaelthayer5351]

General Syndulla's skepticism of the New Republic, especially its politicians, is perfectly understandable and doesn't mean she is a fascist for it. Her father fought for Ryloth and the Old Republic against the Separatists and how did Palpatine's Empire repay them for their courage and sacrifice? With oppression and enslavement while people like the senator just stood by and watched. So totally understand her problems with authority she views as at best self-serving and at worst traitorous. But that doesn't make her a fascist, it makes her a militarist which is different as fascism is a specific type and form of government that involves the control and management of society as one body hence why the fasces is used as its symbol. But Militarism is just more about the primacy of the Armed Forces in safeguarding society and the belief that they are better suited to the task than the bureaucrats and politicians and that civilian control of the military can and should be side-stepped when needed.

[@TheDemigans]

I would actually say Hera is justified. I assume a similar pledge of loyalty is made by the New Republic as American armies, with “to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the New Republic against all enemies, foreign and domestic.”. Which means that unlawful orders like “gun down a few hundred civilians” can be ignored and reported. What happened so far: - a Capitol ship was destroyed and a prisoner escaped. - the Capitol ship was destroyed by two Force Users (and blind incompetence), last known Force User helped defeat the Empire - a group of Empire loyalists is found (who weren’t replaced after several years?!?!?!) building way too large Hyperdrives in an open construction area, with admission of using HK combat droids. It is owned by the escaped prisoner - a transport ship flies off and FIRES INTO THE CITY as it misses it’s pursuers. - the Force Users show up at the site and fight. - later on pilots have died probably with video evidence to a hyperspace ring with the missing overly large Hyperdrives. From start to finish none of these incidents are dismissible alone with “there’s more to do for the NR defense force”. This is their job. Each individually would be a high priority, combined this is something the entire NR should instantly pounce on and a single Senator saying “you can’t pursue this” should be ignored as this should be a multi-senator vote to stop an investigation into the loss of hundreds of people and limited NR ships and equipment. Saying Hera should not pursue this is purposeful neglect of the duties of the NR defense force. Hera does not say things correctly, no doubt about that. But if someone unknown destroys an amphibious assault ship from your military police force with everyone on board killed a Senator should not have the power to say you can’t investigate it.

[@milotaylor1175]

No, Hera isn’t a Fascist. She’s a flawed character, who might not always agree with democracy, but that’s not Fascism. I haven’t seen the Rebels cartoon, but from what I’ve heard, Thrawn was at least partly responsible for the death of her boyfriend Kanan, so I think she’s probably paranoid that he’s now coming back, but I get the feeling that Filoni knows she’s now entirely in the right with how she speaks to the Senator.

[@OspreyKnight]

100%. More she saw Thrawn first hand and how much of a threat he was. He, unlike the rest of the empire, understood restraint and study. Had Thrawn been allowed to remain in power during the Galactic civil war, the rebellion would have been crushed absolutely. Machiavelli has a quote that really fits Thrawn. "IF an injury has to be done to a man, it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." Thrawn doesn't do things that are needlessly cruel... but he will mercilessly crush an opponent in such a way that there is no recovery.

[@Christian_Maoist.]

People just don't understand what Fascism is.

[@thehawkkommandant]

ah here it is! I found a brain. that is, if you mean what I think you do.

[@olorinmagus4479]

Military official insults obstructionist civilian who’d been insulting her throughout the meeting. “Must be a fascist guys, no other alternative. Can you believe that Hera’s a fascist guys?”

[@permeus2nd]

One question I had about the scene is why is she reporting to the senators and not an admiral? Surely with the chain of command she should report to the Admiral they then reports to their superior and then they are working with or reporting to the civilian government?

[@michielvandersijs6257]

Lore wise I think it kinda tracks. The New Republic is consistently shown to be failing at what it aims to be. Too much baggage from the previous republic and riddled with people that served the empire. If they had a competent civilian administration with a professional military, the whole sequel trilogy would have played out differently.

[@Deathsucces]

That's not fascism. Fascism is constituted by the following 5 Principles: 1. There is an almighty state with an almighty leader on its top. 2. Single party rule with no opposition, total centralization of power under one national institution and no individual rights that could limit the power of the state. 3. A relentless effort to increase the power of the state throug various means (techonlogical advancements, military expansion, etc.). 4. Uniformity of all people underneath the state. No room for diversity of differing identities from the leading party. 5. There must be nothing happening without the states involvement because the state is holy. Meaning the state must be involved in everything, down to the lives of every family and individual. Behind those principles there are more philosophical principles such as: - the state is the mytical union and body of the people. - Live is a struggle. - war is eternal. - The weak must fear the strong. - Might makes right. - The value of the people supersede the value of the individual. - Serving national glory. - Carving out our people's destiny. - The stae must be moralistic. These are the core principles (I hope I didn't forget anything) of fascism. And I don't see how Hera applies to any of these really. So be careful who you're calling a fascist. Being militaristic, not valuing democratic principles or bullying someone for a different political opinion does not make one a fascist.

[@TemplinInstitute]

Go tell Ian Kershaw you tried to nail jelly to a wall.

[@Deathsucces]

@@TemplinInstitute Well, the term fascism comes from Benito Mussolini who wrote the Fascist Manifesto and then it's broadly assosiated with the regimes Adolf Hitler implemented in Germany and Francisco Franco in Spain. Both taking Mussolini as a role model for their regimes. The Monarchies and Dictatorships that came before that in european history where not considered fascist. So Fascism really specifically means the kind of systems that Mussolini, Hitler and Franco had (At least that's how the word is used and understood here in Germany). So calling anything "fascist" thats anti-democratic, militaristic etc. feels like a trivialization of the term "fascism" to me.

[@Lumen_Obscurum]

I think the reason this scene plays out this way is partly due to the death of Carrie Fisher. If they could have had a scene with Leia trying to politically outmanoeuvre senators like Xiono, showing that he has no respect for the civilian head of the defence force, that would have explained a lot of the hostility here. As well as the fact that they were questioning a member of the military without her involvement, which to a General would speak volumes as she would normally be given instructions directly through Senator Organa and the chain of command. In many ways, I think one of the issues at hand is we were introduced to a handful of Senators and only had Mon Mothma to refer to as a point of reference. We don't know if the rest of the senators in this call are the ones responsible for the deconstruction of the defence fleets that the Republic inherited from the Empire. I *suspect* that is the case, based on Xiono's stance towards previous Rebel Leadership, as well as the fact that his system is the current centre of the New Republic which gives him disproportionate political power as while the Senate has ultimate say on things, he as Senator for Hosnia Prime has influence on the supplies reaching the Senate. Who gets what housing when visiting the Senate in person, and so forth. Ultimately, I feel that the scene was meant to show that there's a difference between how you can operate in a rebellion and how they expect you to operate in a military. In a military you are expected to follow orders regardless, in a rebellion you can disobey if the orders are flawed. Xiono is clearly expecting the former from Syndulla, which is not how the command structure of the New Republic had become. In operating around Senator Organa they are exposing a weakness in her military doctrine, which gives them further political points for their own ends. Which could be as simple as making money, or as complex as actively preventing the New Republic from working against the Imperial Remnants.

[@RayleighJones]

Coughed a little when Mass Effect 3 intro cinematics got shown as an example of a military subordinated to its civilian authorities, since it's rather skimmed over, but in ME3, Admiral Hackett (and Councilor Udina) are the only ones left in positions of authority for human communities in the ME galaxy. The role of the Human Councilor of the Citadel is a bit nebulous, but Hackett is supposed to be clearly subordinated to the Systems Alliance government and Parliament, and said Parliament is obliterated off-camera, while the Alliance's Admirality is erased in the first minutes of the game. So for most of the game, Hackett acts as a de facto military and civilian leader of all human war efforts, and him and Udina are both in a complete grey area in regard to their respective legal authorities.

[@Oriansenshi]

Reading the comments, I see a lot of people mentioning that someone of the rank of General should have the authority to send a patrol to investigate. Or that just in general, she should have had more authority. It makes me wonder if the New Republic is intentionally trying to reign in their military tightly to not appear like the Empire which flaunted its military might. They might be overcorrecting and micromanaging their military. Just a thought. I havent watched most of the new Disney+ star wars shows, but i have seen lots of people talk about them Its nice to see shows sparking conversation like that!

[@thejediofchicago6580]

That is one of the big out of TV/Film things that is brought up. Apparently Mon Mothma, the Chief of State for the New Republic, gutted the NR military by like 90% in the years after Jakku because of that very concept, they didn't want a centralized, standing military because of the optics, it made them look too much like the Empire they had just overthrown. And that decision has massive implications throughout the films/TV shows, and this scene is part of it. The New Republic's military is so stretched thin because they reduced it that they can't even send a simple scouting task force to check out if one of the Empire's greatest military minds, who was never confirmed to have died, is coming back.

[@barghestblue731]

Given the context of the scene in question, I don't think Fascism is the correct term to use, given that there is no strong central authority and no use of force to enforce authoritarian control.

[@calebparris8956]

Hot take: being disrespectful to inept elected officials is based actually

[@GeofftheIronwolf]

Sorry the part where a military member personally attacke an elected official is not fascist. I see the Templin Institute had Never seen ptoceedings of the US Armed Forces Committee. I have seen 4 Stat Generals and Sgt Majors verbally backhand congressional committies all the time.

[@TemplinInstitute]

Can you provide an example? We're doing research for a follow up and I have not found a single instance of this.

[@GeofftheIronwolf]

@@TemplinInstitute I can't give you specifics on dates and times. I can give you a Marine however. General James Mattis. I pity any Senator back in the day dumb enough to cross swords with him. FAFO with Mattis.

[@christopherpower193]

There is a question of the ends this would have supported. In the world where Hera accepts blindly the determinations of Senator Xiono, there is a greater likelihood that Thrawn's return might have occured unopposed and unnoticed for a time. And who knows how that coyld impact the outcome of any conflict. Hera had reasonable intell that there was significant enemy activity occuring, with the possibility of a significant threat to the safety of the NR due to stolen military hardware. A general needs to respect the system for sure, but also needs to be able to act on intel without running it by a committee. As a follow on from future episodes, it is also revealed that the special council overseeing the defence of the NR was bypassed by the Senator for his own reasons (regardless of his FO ties). Is that not also an attack on democracy from within the government?

[@kingofhearts3185]

Indeed it is an attack on those very principles this video is trying to champion, which is the ultimate irony of how badly they missed the mark.

[@slowjamsliver7006]

I forget where I hear it, but the guy was a soldier at one point and said that regular military and irregulars do not mix. What makes an irregular effective is not what makes a military person effective. The irregular disobeys to become a rebel. A regular obeys to become a soldier.

[@lostmarble540]

this feels like the Loose Cannon Cop trope, but everyone ridiculed that trope so much it had to be toned down and turned into something like this

[@SWCoco]

Did you ever watch Rebels, Senator... Just sat back and waited to see live action?

[@publiusventidiusbassus1232]

Not only is the use of fascist here insultingly and completely inaccurate, but Hera's approach to firmly divide civilian authority from military structure is the complete opposite of real fascism.

[@abraham2172]

Its pretty obvious the writers tried to make Hera look cool and badass, but had no clue about the relationships between the military and a civilian government. They probably tried to replicate some cool scenes of other, good war movies, but failed to recognize the implications and context of those scenes.

[@randomj_904]

Can people just fucking stop throwing the word "fascism" all over the place while pretending to know what it means? For fuck sake

[@deputychiefclifton]

As both a military and law enforcement veteran, I think my opinion might have some weight here. Hera is 10000% right about the senator personally. HOWEVER... 1). Her job is to do whatever she honestly believes is what's best for the New Republic, but like in the U.S. military, if you act in accordance with your beliefs on the matter, and those who have lawful authority over you disagree with your choices, you also volunteer for the punishment. Even IF her disobedience HAD saved the republic, then the proper thing would b e to award her with whatever medals or awards that would normally earn, and then relive her of command, and if the violation was serious enough, discharge her from service. 2). Being right isn't the end all. She took an oath to defend the Republic itself, but ALSO it's ideals, including the rule of law. 3). If she, or anyone else, truly believed that the senator was a traitor, then she should refer any evidence she has to the Republic's law enforcement and intelligence agencies to investigate. Finally... even if the senator is a coward/and or traitor in his belief, that has nothing to do with if he committed traitorous acts.

[@culturewarsdiplomacy]

I’m reminded of another person who did not believe they should have oversight. unlike the Republic this person was was draped in the American flag and fought in America’s name but quite literally said in no uncertain terms they would not accept oversight. “What happens when we screwup” Tony Stark asked Captain America, “I’ll just have to live with that.” Was what Cap said about The legal fight of the Sokovia Accords. Seeing how both men got there I understand why Steve felt that way but he just said if he causes a war, gets people killed because he screwed up owe well. I don’t judge the punisher because I’m not asked to. I am suppose to enjoy the power fantasy of that fight. But when asked to pick a side with two heroes regardless of the title telling me what I’m suppose to think, “Captain America Civil War” you would need me to show me that the eminent threat and government corruption and/or incompetence requires such s level of insubordination as a reason to ask for forgiveness as opposed to permission, I should probably watch Ashoka to get the full context but with Cap I had the same feeling as the Institute does for the General.

[@kingofhearts3185]

It's worth noting he mischaracterized the incident and power dynamics here. It wasn't a minor skirmish, it was high level corruption and infiltration of a key military production facility by agents of a foreign government, which Xiono was also a part of. It was pointed out he was an imperial official that never joined or supported the rebellion in any way during the actual war, just sticking around after they won. The threat is very real and Xiono is being accused of being a part of it given his past affiliation, the incident happened because imperial era officials were left in charge of something important. Exactly what he is coming from a rich, inner rim world that only saw the benefits of the empire rather than suffer from their oppression. Soldiers have a right to refuse unreasonable orders, that's why "I was just following orders" isn't a defense in front of a war crime tribunal. On the topic of orders we later learn he's acting beyond his authority by not getting the head of the defense council (Leia) involved in this debate, hence the "I was ignoring you" line being true. He didn't have the authority to give her orders like that, but was actually making his own politically motivated power play. So he tried to give her orders that obstructed an investigation into government corruption and collusion without the legal authority to do so. I don't know if that's the "eminent threat and government corruption and/or incompetence requires such a level of insubordination as a reason to ask for forgiveness as opposed to permission" and I don't mean to sound rude by phrasing it this way. Genuinely curious what you think with a bit more context if you haven't seen the show yet. Btw the part about where his homeworld is comes from elsewhere, not mentioned in ahsoka.

[@FattyMcFox]

The way it lingered on Mon-Mothma's face shows that she wasn't 'just sitting there and taking it' she was shocked speechless, and likely deeply hurt.