How the Penguin Went From Gentleman Villain to Gritty Gotham City Gangster

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#batman #batmancomics #dccomics #thepenguin

[@johnsayles8032]

Joker will kill you for fun, Luthor will do it while saying youve failed him for the last time. Penguin....has canonically paid for his guys hospital fees.

[@RaptorJesus]

Penguin's biggest strength, and the reason he's basically DC's version of the Kingpin(or I suppose the other way around), is that while he can be petty and angry, at the end of the day, he's in the game for entirely understandable reasons. He wants money and power. He's not trying to make some grand point, make the world's hardest riddle. He's not psychotic or otherwise mentally ill. He's just an eccentric gangster. Who's *very* good at knowing which way the wind is blowing. On top of that, he runs a tight ship. The only other figure remotely comparable to him *might* be Black Mask, and on a good day he's only *half* as likely as the Joker to shoot you for looking at him the wrong way.

[@theemeraldboars484]

​@@RaptorJesus came to say this! In one of Scott Lang's Ant-Man comics a con says Kingpin rewarded his loyalty for doing a stint rather than out him by paying daughter's way through college. I forget which Batman story it is, but Penguin has also paid college fees for his goons saying "Rewarding loyalty by enhancing society with education seems apt".

[@mechalith2791]

@@RaptorJesus If nothing else, Penguin understands that if you're going to run organized crime in Gotham City of all places, you've got to *really* mean the 'organized' part to make a profit, and your employment incentives have to outweigh the high likelihood of being Batmanned in the line of duty if you want to keep the competent ones around.

[@lokimiguel2452]

Lmao he has still killed people bud

[@ThatOneDude521]

Didn’t he (in the Arkham City game) leave his men to die trapped with armed Joker thugs? I believe his exact words were “Try and take some of them down before you die, son.” Not all incarnations are as evil as Arkham Penguin, but he’s always been one devious bastard

[@RaptorJesus]

To me what makes the Penguin great is that he's the perfect example of the "tipping point" in Gotham. The middle-ground between the traditional mafia and gangs, and the super-villains who would replace them. Like all of Batman's best villains, he's a dark reflection. Bruce Wayne deals with the civilian world, seen as a loveable eccentric, while Batman engages in the super-heroics. Oswald Cobblepot is much the same. Oswald deals with the civilian world, another "loveable eccentric", with his Iceberg Lounge and almost-but-not-quite comical suits. And then there's the Penguin, who deals with super-villainy. One of the most ruthless, and yet still *fair and reasonable* crimelords in Gotham.

[@euansmith3699]

Gotham's versions of Penguin and Riddler are my favourite incarnations of the characters.

[@RaptorJesus]

@@euansmith3699 As much as I loved that show, and that version of Oswald, I still dislike the fact they sent him to Arkham. Like, Penguin's whole schitck is more or less that he's the biggest name in Batman's Rogues Gallery who *doesn't* go to Arkham.

[@SeasideDetective2]

The parallels between Bruce and Oswald don't end there. Both come from privileged backgrounds, and yet both have suffered - Bruce by losing his parents to a gun wielded by a "lesser" man, Oswald by the loss of his family's social status. (It's honestly hard to determine which of the two has suffered more.) Both are former pillars of society who have devolved into monsters - but they're monsters on opposite sides of the law. Tim Burton also adeptly portrayed the shift in Gotham City from "mafia" to "circus" in the 1989 film. The Joker is memorably wacky, but his origin is very serious. While Jack Napier was always insane, he managed to portray himself as someone who was relatively normal until his body and hair changed colors. Burton gives us only a few hints of what's to come: the joker card Napier carries around, of course, but also the eerie photos of white-faced, red-lipped women on the walls of Jack's apartment. (Jack also calls Harvey Dent a "clown," which makes his fate not only funny, but practically karmic.)

[@joearnold6881]

I want a gritty version of Batman punching random umbrellas with no other bad guys around

[@Waffletigercat]

The Penguin was the breakout villain in Batman ‘66. He was so popular that the producers always had a Penguin script on-hand and would shoot one every time Burgess Meredith had the free time to film an episode.

[@kevin10001]

He even got 2 3 part plots the zodiac crimes and penguin is a girl’s best friend

[@akiraeatsguitarpicks491]

I’m gonna join the choir and say I miss when the Penguin actually looked a bit like a penguin

[@richardjohnson9543]

I saw at least three references to Burgess Meredith in the first episode of the Penguin. Oz's love of purple(or plum, as he prefers), Burgess Jewelry store in the scene where Oz is watching Sofia from across the street, and finally the very last shot where Oz and Vic are in front of a very familiar red building. It's slightly altered but that's Mickey's gym from the Rocky movies. And who played Mick?

[@patrickdodds7162]

I'm fond of Batman TAS's "Birds of a Feather" with Paul Williams' underrated take of The Penguin. In this version he's not shown as powerful, but an almost pathetic wannabe member of high society...but still quite dangerous...and oddly sympathetic in a way that Danny DeVito's version never could truly pull off. Also his bits in "Almost Got 'Em" is all gold with his avian-themed scheme to murder Batman with different types of birds while rattling off many 10-cent words in the process. That version needs more love and Paul Williams always brought the gold on B:TAS.

[@firefly4f4]

"and a good old-fashioned flying umbrella chase ensues." There's a phrase I didn't think I'd hear today.

[@ishotmyboss]

I weirdly earned two nickels today.

[@DerMannDerSeineMutterwar]

I just wanna add that to me the best penguin was the one in the Gotham Series. I really liled his first season plotline starting as the Umbrella holder of another mobboss and starting a brutal gang war to exploit everyone and advance to the top.

[@sinswhisper9588]

i genuinely let out a maniacal giggle when he rocked up to that place with a rocket launcher said a quippy one-liner and then just casually fired a rocket like it was nothing and walked away

[@DerMannDerSeineMutterwar]

@@sinswhisper9588 Also Butch is a best buddy!

[@reedcockrell8126]

He got his kneecaps busted in the pilot episode... which is why he waddled like a penguin!

[@notoriouswhitemoth]

Insofar as Batman's villains represent aspects of his shadow, the Penguin represents his role as president and CEO of Wayne Enterprises

[@moosevelt9148]

Good video Steve. I liked how that last story's ending has an element of "Penguin's untouchable now," like he's wised up or shielded himself, unlike his silver age incarnation who is always directly involved and caught. It changes the power of Gotham in that Penguin will always be around, rather than occassionally breaking out, like the Joker. I quite liked the Arkham games version of the character, an international weapons smuggler/arms dealer and perverse trophy collector, and, despite the show's flaws, the actor from Gotham did a great job switching between weak and helpless to powerful and sadistic on a dime. You can kind of feel Gotham's influence on the HBO show

[@DarthCalculus]

That panel of Batman grinning with a twinkle in his eye at 23:43 is so good

[@artisan002]

I still occasionally think about the Bat-Man comic where Penguin crashes a museum event, riding on a mechanical pterodactyl.

[@michaelramon2411]

As one does.

[@alanbear6505]

In Batman Returns, when Penguin is running for Mayor the advertising tries to make him look more like Burgess Meredith.

[@fredrikcarlstedt393]

Oswald killing the gangster boss reminds me of how the Joker kills Carl Grissom in the 1989 movie .

[@normative]

It occurs to me now that the original incarnation of the Penguin, before they went hard on gimmick umbrellas and bird themed crimes, seems modeled on Arsene Lupin: The suave, well-dressed gentleman thief who always keeps two steps ahead of the authorities via a convoluted plan. I would’t mind seeing that version make a comeback someday.

[@daelen.cclark]

The idea of a villain leaving fake clues for the hero to come up with a caper for them is an amazing idea to me!

[@alexandrefrauches132]

Maybe a hot take but I prefer the classic "gentleman thief" Penguin over the modern mobster. I think Penguin is more interesting when he's this over the top pompous criminal mastermind who, deep inside, is a bitter vengenful man, traumatized by all the bullying he suffered in his childhood due to his apperance. His "gentleman persona" is just an act to hide his insecurites, very similar to how Batman uses his "billionaire playboy" persona to hide his true self from the public.

[@richardnixon846]

yes my boy, i love him so, in all his forms, “waaaah waaah waaahh!” burgess meredith penguin laugh

[@BlueBeetle1939]

I love the look of those old comics

[@euansmith3699]

Username and image check out 😄👍

[@empatheticrambo4890]

Burgess Meredith's Penguin and Frank Gorshin's Riddler are the two DEFINING Batman villain actors for my imagination ever since childhood watching reruns on TV Land in the early 2000s. Still personal favorites because of them

[@Tuaron]

Totally agree, though I also put Cesar Romero's Joker up there. Props to a man who refused to shave his moustache and instead just had makeup over it.

[@michaelramon2411]

How good was Gorshin? The Riddler had been in THREE comics stories EVER (two in the 40s, one in 1965) before the '66 show. Gorshin made him one of the central Batman villains.

[@369frequencyandvibration]

​@@Tuaron 😂 I was about to say that!

[@369frequencyandvibration]

​@@michaelramon2411 Gorshin came back to voice other characters, too, in the animated DC's

[@dunkelmonkey]

Danny DeVito was an incredible Penguin

[@Progger11]

He played the role that was written for him very well. That role was a bad adaptation of the character, but he still acted the hell out of it.

[@brianrunyon266]

Fan of Colin's take on the Penguin, especially the New York-like accent, as I've read Gotham was inspired by New York City. I also like how this series is focusing on the gang aspect, rather than the super villain angle.

[@MalzraAirwynn]

I didn't know how much I needed a panel of Robin punching an umbrella.

[@seanholland6132]

Two videos in one day?! What a joyous day!

[@renatocorvaro6924]

I think if I had to pick one word to define Pengun's core character, it would be "petty". Dude is always just super petty.

[@kurathchibicrystalkitty5146]

"For a blind man, you see pretty good." Wow, way to be ablest, Robin. "It's like wrestling with flying eels." That's....oddly specific. Does Batman know something about eels that we don't? Also, the casual way Batman just chucks the vase at the Penguin is weirdly funny. "A good old-fashioned flying umbrella chase ensues." 🤣 Gotta love those flying umbrella chases. Much more engaging than regular car chases. I'm trying to picture modern day Batman doing any of the wacky stuff he does in these first two comics, and the cognitive dissonance is a heck of a trip.

[@GwydionFrost]

For me, I tried to convince folks that Penguin on the big screen should extremely resemble Phillip Seymour Hoffman's character in Mission Impossible III. That actor was also my fancast to play the Penguin, too. Sadly, we have been denied that possibility.

[@Tuaron]

Oooh, that's a solid choice and a good idea about the character. Sad we won't see it (nobody make an AI version, I don't want that).

[@edwardschneider5194]

A recent coincidence with me confirming an appointment with a client with "same bat time, same bat channel" and them asking "what that ment" and me explaining about me, watching re-runs of the old 1960's and very campy Batman TV show after school and that being the sign off till tomorrow (for me tomorrow) for the next show... I've come to understand that I probably used that phrase because of the new Penguin show but I usta commute with a guy in the late 80"s and when I'd drop him off everyday he'd confirm same time tomorrow with that phrase to me

[@SuperGod2099]

My general distaste for the modern Penguin isn't making him a gangster, that's fine. But I still want him to, somehow or another, be Old Money. Firstly, otherwise pitting him against Bruce tends to, at best, criticize the nouveau riche, and at worst could fall into antisemitic tropes. Secondly, because if he is Bruce's Old Money peer, he actually becomes a perfect foil. What if Bruce had never experienced tragedy and, instead, just puttered away developing a number of hobbies to a degree of expertise until he just got so bored he felt the need to start animal themed adventuring? Of course, with no real purpose, he just devotes his intellect and dedication to material pursuits, petty revenge, and self-aggrandizement.

[@Tuaron]

Really appreciate this look at Penguin, just as I've been quite liking the show. He seems to have been getting a slight renaissance in recent years, with his representation as a key character in Gotham, his quite interesting portrayal in the Telltale game (rather different, but still a great version), to this version by Colin Farrell, which is my favourite since Burgess Meredith (not sure which I prefer, they're very different beasts). I'm glad, as the character has a lot of potential to be maybe not Batman's biggest enemy, but an excellent thorn in his side, and a powerful figure in the Gotham underworld.

[@otakon17]

7:06 If I had a nickel for every time I casually heard "Dickensian street urchin" on KZbin, I'd have two nickels. Which isn't a lot but it's weird it happened twice, right?

[@mechalith2791]

I've definitely heard 'Dickensian orphan' more often in conversation, but at least from my POV it's arguably weirder that it has *only* happened twice, Doofenschmirtz references aside.

[@reyperry2605]

Woke up this morning Got yourself a bird...

[@369frequencyandvibration]

BURGESS MEREDITH is why I know Penguin & Grumpier Old Men ... the outtakes from Grumpier Old Men is on KZbin 😂 🤣🤣😅

[@369frequencyandvibration]

I HAD NO IDEA Clash of the Titans came out in 1981 A.D. ⚔️ 🗡️ I thought it was as old as Jason & The Argonauts!

[@LRM23936]

Ostrander had the market cornered on revitalizing villians in that time period. He had the Penguin in his Suicide Squad run planning missions for the team.

[@TheDukeofMadness]

There are very few changes that were made in the 1990s and 2000's that I liked. Turning Penguin into a crime boss/nightclub owner was one of them. That and Riddler going straight were great ideas in several decades of dreck.

[@MalzraAirwynn]

Part of me wishes that instead of just the monocle thing, the entire umbrella thing was just Penguin trying to fuck with Batman's head and he never tried to steal anything that episode.

[@OpinionsNoOneCaresAbout]

People gotta stop leaving Robin Lord Taylor out of the conversation.

[@reedcockrell8126]

Best... Penguin... ever!

[@LegoGeek456]

The Penguin is my favorite Batman villain. With him being a mob boss, he’s a nice throwback to Batman’s origins as just a masked vigilante going up against urban crime. And because he’s a mob boss, he provides Batman and his allies an army of goons to fight so we can get a lot of cool action scenes. My version of the Penguin I’ve created in my head has him as representing not just organized crime, but gang culture in general; not just the mob but gangs like the Hell’s Angels or the Bloods and the Crips (hell, even the Mutants from The Dark Knight Returns). I’m not a fan of Falcone and Maroni because I find La Cosa Nostra/the Italian Mafia to be overdone. With Penguin, you can have a Falcone or a Maroni while still utilizing a classic Batman villain. Sorry for the long post, I just love this character and I’m loving the Max show so far.

[@chrisjones5949]

Interesting video. I would definitely agree that Burgess Meredith's portrayal of the Penguin is near-mythical and certainly a big reason the character was elevated to A-list status. I really liked the Arkham games' version of Penguin as well. That iteration of him came across as a guy who was mostly a brutal crime lord who *wanted* to be seen as classy but couldn't quite make it stick. Although he was definitely cunning!

[@ditchboyhill_0781]

I love your channel so much One day "The penguin is one of my favorite batman characters" The next "Donald Trump should be locked up for the rest of his life" Its a nice juxtaposition and both styles really entertaining and informative

[@EugeneGM1]

I always said I enjoyed Danny DeVito's, interpretation of Killer Croc as the penguin to be, uh, Interesting, and inspirational

[@bibliotecaroncoroni6067]

As a former Peter David fan (I'm not crazy about his latest work but I loved it in the 90s) I loved the referece.

[@Tuaron]

I'm still sad he's not involved in the new 2099 books, they were his babies at one point, and the world just doesn't work that well without him.

[@brianstiles1701]

I feel like the version from Gotham deserves recognition for Robin Lord Taylor's great portrayal and for the show's brilliant decision to cast Paul Reubens (again) as his dad.

[@jessewilley531]

While he's not quite as bird like as Burgess Meredith or Danny Devito's Penguin, I think Paul Williams take on the character is VERY underrated.

[@cbohnstedt4477]

Wait a minute, you're not Huggbees!

[@petehjr1]

I was thinking the second guy was the inspiration for Father Guido Sartucci.

[@ObiwanNekody]

There's two episodes of the Justice League where Batman's the good cop. Both are pretty great 👍

[@PMickeyDee]

In defense of the penguin makeover, who on earth are we gonna get to play Danny devito as the penguin?

[@welcometogeektown]

You left out the best Penguin actor in your lineup at the end there. Robin Lord Taylor's Oswald Cobblepot gets to touch on nearly all of these interpretations of the Penguin over the five seasons of the Gotham TV show. As the co-host of the Gothamites podcast, I had to speak up for him!

[@michaelramon2411]

Thanks to Burgess Meredith in the '66 movie, I can't hear a reference to the Penguin without mentally declaring something about his terrifying arsenal of "penguin gas".

[@protoroc]

I like the touch of the new penguin is based out of Burgess Jewelry Store

[@allanolley4874]

It's interesting what basic elements of the Penguin remain the same in the highlighted stories a guy in a tuxedo who hatches (eh!) elaborate schemes to achieve basically straightforward robbery. The differences are ones of style and manner, sometimes he's more of a straight gang leader, sometimes he's bird obsessed, sometimes he has pretentions of high society refinement, sometimes he's more a background operator and mastermind etc. I always thought "the Actuary" would make a great name for a hitman, I was imagining someone who kills people in ways made to look like whatever the most common mode of death would be with someone in their demographic profile, making the death as unsuspicious as possible. Good to know that I'm not the only one who saw some potential in it. Actuaries are a lot like hitmen in that an essential component of their job involves placing a dollar value on human life.

[@moebettermann1154]

As far as I am concerned Burgess Meredith is the one and only Penguin!!!!

[@369frequencyandvibration]

BEYOND THE WHITE KNIGHT, and CURSE OF THE WHITE KNIGHT are huge parts of Azreal's legacy

[@MikesOrganicVideos]

This was hilarious. I laughed out loud quite a few times. Thank you. And yes, I am enjoying the Colin Farrell Penguin series.

[@ImaPseudonym-go6oy]

The Actuary: the most unassumingly deadly supervillain you've never heard of.

[@johnnzboy]

"Dickensian street urchin" lol

[@jordanrhea1504]

Hey Steve! Been a fan of the channel for a while. It was neat to see you also pop up over on Dollemore's channel. Hope that got you bit of a bump over here. Anyway, always love your videos. Keep up the good work.

[@astroworfcraig9164]

Waak, waak, waak.

[@euansmith3699]

I never knew that Copplepot is Afrikaans?!

[@euansmith3699]

Graham Nolan never really stood out to me as a Batman artist; however, following Steve's praise of him, I looked him up online; and "Monster Island" is right up my alley.

[@nobot87]

Im glad someone is discussing this!

[@dougputhoff]

I can't wait to hear your review of the new Joker movie.

[@timothybarnett1006]

Speaking as a Brit, it's perfectly acceptable to parody an accent from a country that has done colonialism, and Italy did occupy Ethiopia

[@CyclonusEX]

Your Batman content is awesome. I for one cannot wait to hear your thoughts on the Knightfall event. Whether you liked it or not, I am sure the analysis you present will be as thoughtful as usual, and laced with your trademark witty tactical snark throughout. Great stuff once again, sir.

[@rickbrookes9491]

“Is this gonna be some shit with umbrellas?”

[@stevengalloway8052]

Joker is Batman's greatest enemy. Nothing will change that. Penguin is third. Ras Al Ghul is second... 🐧 😏

[@TheSuperhomosapien]

I'd have to put Riddler above Penguin. He actually figured out Batman's identity, that has to put him in the top 3. Hugo Strange is another person who falls into that category, but I'd put him behind Penguin in the villains department. I might have to put Bane above Penguin as well, given the significant impact he had on Batman. Hush would be above Penguin as well for the same reason as Bane if they'd have found a way to make him a regular villain instead of a one off.

[@369frequencyandvibration]

Knight Fall was amazing saga .... You must read Sean Murphy before that video gets made

[@sinswhisper9588]

did anyone else see the goon in the green luchador mask and instantly think of 'early' Bane??

[@ericjome7284]

It's always been a strange character. Why "penguin"? Why that bird? They are not noted for their criminal genus in the animal kingdom. Or their fortitude. Or power. Is it just the only look that worked? Why umbrellas? It's such a creative mystery. Why not gorilla? Or "The Gentleman"?

[@BlackCover95]

How could you not mention ma boy, Robin Lord Taylor? His portrayal of the character on _Gotham_ made half the show!

[@reedcockrell8126]

I hope this is not a case of Steve looking down his nose at Gotham... the way he does at Lower Decks and Robin Hood: Men In Tights!

[@podemosurss8316]

2:48 It's-a me! Mario!

[@ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΑ-ε1ω]

Wow 83 yesrs

[@Jammermaker]

Neat.

[@bizarrebraincomics7819]

Pengy always a good villain. I loved Merediths version but the modern crime boss works best.

[@veganmonter]

6:33 - I don't understand the obsession of writers with Morse code.

[@QFenix23]

How neat !

[@dr.bucklebelt3377]

Very neat

[@Jammermaker]

@dr.bucklebelt3377 lol I wanted to comment for engagement but I didn't want to be that jackass that said first.

[@TomBongJovi]

I think Batman from the Brave and the Bold TV series might be the closest you'll get to a Batman would call someone tubby or something. I mean it is based on the gold and silver age so not surprising

[@sinswhisper9588]

i know this is a divisive choice but i enjoyed The Penguin's portrayal in the Gotham tv series

[@theAverageJoe25]

I didn’t know you did DC?! I thought you just did Star Trek and politics

[@TheSuperhomosapien]

In the Telltale Batman video game (which refreshingly rewrites Batman lore rather significantly), they combined Penguin with Hush rather effectively. That game also went full in on with some details about Bruce's parents that seemed to have inspired The Batman movie but felt kind of half-assed in the execution of this concept in the film.

[@SeasideDetective2]

There's a reason why there aren't many iconic Penguin stories. The Joker is a clown. Catwoman is a cat. The Penguin is a...what? In most of his depictions, Oswald doesn't look particularly like an actual penguin. And what's birdlike about an umbrella? The vagueness of the Penguin always confused me. BATMAN RETURNS and "Batman: The Animated Series" made more sense to me because in those the Penguin was literally a mutant bird-man. Batman's rogues gallery is at its best when it consists almost entirely of archetypal monsters.

[@johnburnside7828]

No comment about Robin Lord Taylor's take on him in "Gotham"?

[@harrybehemoth2751]

STEVE!!! I've got a pitch for a sketch!---- FRANK MILLER'S STEVE SHIVES aka THE DARK SHIVES RETURNS! You can say things like "I'M THE GODDAMN STEVE SHIVES!" and you can force your stuffed animals to eat those little cat toys shaped like mice. I'll leave you to flesh it out. You can just give me a "story by" credit.

[@drtaverner]

I kind of liked the Penguin in _Gotham._

[@Dakota-d4n]

I m fan of year one batsuit and golden age batsuit

[@BaronVonFisticuffs]

Nothing about Pain and Prejudice?

[@joshuataylor7443]

1:12 I mean same can be said for Poison Ivy and Killer Croc, 18:20 sorry not completely true she was a villain who had her own group of thefts and not She is mostly solo and is more of a ant hero.

[@arrow1414]

Nah, she isn't the first Robin. She is a separate character since she didn't actually replace Dick and called herself "Robin". It would be like a girl dressing up like Batman to help Batman but saying she is the first female Batman.😅

[@K3M15A]

disagree. The penguin is of a much higher caliber than The Batman

[@lukeswandhr]

My main concern is how to survive all these financial and political crises, especially in light of political power struggle . The government has really called things harder for its citizens, and we can't just sit back and bear all the consequences of bad governance.

[@Richardcory3963]

Exactly! Political drama aside, what about the impending economic crisis? Are we prepared for the storm that is coming

[@lukeswandhr]

I began investing in stocks and Def earlier this year, and it is the best choice l've ever made. My portfolio is rounding up to almost a million, and I have realized that when a stock makes it to the news. Chances are you're quite late to the party, the idea is to get in early on blue chips before it becomes public. There are lots of life changing opportunities in the market, and maximize it.

[@lukeswandhr]

You can make a lot of money from the market regardless of whether it strengthens or crashes. The key is to be well positioned.

[@James-g8e9t]

I would really like to know how this actually works.

[@lukeswandhr]

All you need is a good capital, and the service of a professional broker, with those your investment will most certainly produce high yields.

[@shadowgolem9158]

Writing like that is why many Boomers think that way of talking and thinking is OK. They were raised on it.

[@holofish]

Goons! Goons! So many goons!

[@bonefactory1393]

Have you read The Penguin series written by Tom King that just rapped up this September?

[@THE_Dodge_Morningstar]

🤣No reason... Just to fuck with Batman.

[@typeviic1]

Why cant we get a serious, non-campy Green Lantern?

[@369frequencyandvibration]

Self-Esteem issue... like the time he came back to kill the family of a cook who might have laughed when he was asking a woman on a date?

[@rbourne35]

Burgess Meredith made everything better

[@zmanjace1364]

To me, Penguin is a B level villain with a high enough profile to be an A lister. Hes a persistent threat but never a major world ender or even city ender. Thats not profitable. He seems the most likely to actually help Batman if it were to be in his own favor. I like the Penguin alot but i dont think he will ever get above 5 in the list of top 5 batman villains for me but only bc batman has some really villainous villains.