How The Republic Nearly Lost the Clone Wars Before They Started | Star Wars

The Grand Army of the Republic was the greatest fighting force the galaxy had ever seen. But if things had been just slightly different, a Separatist victory would have been assured.
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[@richardsousa2625]

I love how all the flawed military logic between both factions can be explained by “they were designed to fail” Palps didn’t need a long term defense force, and he had advance notice of the war because he was planning it, he needed an immediate solution for completely loyal sector security to be on a whim, replaced by galvanized citizens loyal to the state who were ready to prove their superiority

[@Andy_Sidaris]

George Lucas had advance notice of the war too and still was unable to come up with anything that made any sense

[@pougetguillaume4632]

And then the imperial army turns out to be even more flawed than the previous militaries... AT-TTs are an atrocious designs, the whole doctrine is a mess, tie fighter are garbage but are the only way to protect star destroyers from fighters etc... I like the fact the previous factions were designed to fail but i find it hard to believe when you know the empire created by the same person and which was supposed to succeed is somehow even worse.

[@cjschneidt9089]

I wonder if his plan was to control whichever side won. Maybe there's an alternate reality where all the jedi turned evil 🤷‍♂️

[@MungoMcGhee]

@@pougetguillaume4632 The Imperial Military was largely a force meant to engage foes in a head-on war, which was what the Clone Wars was. The Rebellion was a completely different kind of enemy from the CIS. Instead of massive armies of droids and vast armadas, you had individual cells and formations with much more limited naval capability using hit-and-run tactics and guerilla warfare.

[@aliboy357]

@@cjschneidt9089 The main point of the war was as a test to decide the basis for his future Imperial army. Though the Separatists as a whole were doomed to fail, the model of the droid army compared to an organic army was being tested. By the mid-point of the war he had all the data he needed and hung the Separatists out to dry, even canonically going so far as to point the Jedi at factories developing better models of droid to speed up the war. Hell, in the original plan Dooku was meant to survive and be "reformed" so that while Palpatine became the Emperor he could serve as Chancellor. Can't remember if Dooku or Anakin was to take charge of the Sith order he wanted to build but Anakin was originally meant to control the Imperial military, which he still kind of did as Vader. It was all rendered moot though when Anakin cut off Dookus hands and tried to take him prisoner. Sidious couldn't risk Dooku letting the plan slip to the Jedi and if Dooku had taken the fight seriously rather than toying with Anakin he may of lived rather than having his master use the force to compel Anakin to kill him. Not to mention that the war as a whole and the attack on Coruscant in particular, probably the single most heavily defended planet in the galaxy, was designed entirely to create enough fear that people would willingly give up their freedoms to empower as autocratic regime promising peace and stability.

[@Cailus3542]

It is worth noting that contrary to general assumption, the Republic wasn't defenceless. Numerous worlds had military forces available that could be mobilised, while the Republic was perfectly capable of forming an army via conscription under Jedi guidance. Note that the Senate was already planning to conscript a formal army before the Jedi discovered the clones. If given just a year or two, a powerful (if inexperienced) Republic military would've been ready to take on the Separatists. The clones simply made such measures unnecessary.

[@Joh666porra]

This is very interesting. Is this from any of the books? Could you recommend any that describe this? Thanks!

[@Mahbu]

My one small criticism of this is that none of the movies made this clear and I don't recall if any of the cartoons did, either. One of the biggest drawbacks of vast multimedia IPs is that the audience only works with the information they are willing to avail themselves of. The other issue is canon can change on a whim. And things can be explained retroactively.

[@xertris]

Yep, and palpatine knew it which is why he made the clones, soldiers he had perfect control over for the war. Order 66 or any moves like it couldn't be made if significant chunk of the army could think or act independently. Some jedi survived precisely because they raised their own army (General Kota), or were in the company of a non-clone force (Yoda).

[@alejandrobraganza8728]

@@Joh666porra It's what they are discussing in the Senate at Episode II. The Planetary Defence Forces appear in many media: we see the Naboo Royal Guard, the Great Gungan Army and the wookiee army in the movies, while The Clone Wars showed more of those planetary forces.

[@strategicgamingwithaacorns2874]

@@alejandrobraganza8728 Is "Planetary Defense Force" a generic Sci-Fi jargon term? Asking because I've never heard it outside the context of 40K.

[@CucumberSadness]

A clone army does have some viability. 1) You start growing the army while you still maintain a standing army. Once the first batch of clones is ready you begin to reduce your standing army and slowly allow the clones to take over with training and aid from the original army. 2) Once the first batch is ready, or while it was growing you prepare a second batch to supplmenet the first batch, and replace any unexpect loses amongst the first. You can also use them to cycle out troops to prevent mental fatigue. 3) Your third batch is grown with the intent to replace the first batch as it is gets too old. 4) Your fourth batch replaces the second batch and fulfils the same role as the second. 5) You grow a fifth batch and so on. 6) While this may be expensive, with the right tech it is arguably cheaper than having to perform recruitment drives, pay soldiers, train soldiers, and take from the work force. 7) While a wholly clone army has many issues. You can have your clones grown from multiple DNA sources, to mitigate some issues. You should reinforce it, especially leadership, maintenance and logistics with regular people to prevent other issuws. 8) Don't leave all your cloning facilities in one place. 9) To simplify things, imagine getting a clone army like getting new tanks. The new tanks are there to replace the old ones and any decent army will be constantly replacing and upgrading its armour. All you are doing is replacing and upgrading your manpower, and each new batch of clones is a new upgrade and replacement package.

[@lenshibo]

Additionally, with the multiple cloning facilities and different dna samples you mentioned, you could stagger the production of clones. instead of having batches, just have one continuous production. It could also be very useful to limit the use of the accelerated aging to just the initial wave. That way you get the initial wave of clones out fast and use those while the slower aging clones are growing up. This will allow you to have clones that don’t age as fast replace the initial wave once those clones get to old to fight. Granted that’s more of a long term plan and not useful for the current war your fighting but for a government as big and wide spread as the Republic it would be VERY good to have a permanent army of soldiers just in case. It will also allow them to have long term occupancy of all the planets they control. One of the biggest complaints about the republic is that they tended to forget about a lot of the planets they were alliances with. So having a large army of clones that can last as long as normal people on these planets to protect them from threats would go a long way to prevent stuff like the CIS from even happening in the first place

[@fieldmarshalgaig4856]

Ok but is it cheaper? Like you can re use armour yes, but with a clone army you have to pay for the clone, the clones good, the clothes housing and on top of that the clone doesn’t go out and get a job in its youth and contribute to the economy

[@TheArklyte]

Congrats! You've just found a way to combine drawbacks of Astartes and Elementals. Feel prepared for Clone Heresy?;)

[@ztheo2280]

yeah i never bought the argument that a clone army would be more expensive than a regular one. yes you have to pay for the first 10 years but afterwards you literally dont have to pay them anything and even a normal army would need to be fully fed and housed. plus you could get away with a at least partially smaller army because your troops are almost guaranteed to have an advantage in quality (unless you pick a fight with EU mados of course)

[@ztheo2280]

@@fieldmarshalgaig4856 you have to pay for housing and feeding of a normal army too. especially if they are deployed

[@underworldguardian704]

“Us Clones have mixed feelings about the war. Many People Wish It Never Happened. But Without It, We Clones Wouldn't Exist” -Capt. Rex

[@rexlumontad5644]

"Our friends from the Trade Federation have pledged their support, and when their battle droids are combined with yours, we shall have an army greater than any in the galaxy. The Jedi will be overwhelmed, and the Republic will agree to any demands we make." - Count Dooku to the members of the Separatist Council

[@Prefix1998]

The CIS army was greatly held back by palpatine, they had numbers, a droid specializing in every task, a diverse fleet. The clones were the most elite army in the history of star wars but they're too stretched thin and their fleet mostly consist of venators which is a major disadvantage when fighting the droid fleet.

[@Galdenberry_Lamphuck]

Finally someone who agrees that the Venator is inadequate at best

[@Ozpawn]

@@Galdenberry_Lamphuck its more like they used the venator as something more than an assault carrier, it made up a majority of fleets and was the only ship that could take hits and keep going unlike its smaller sister ships which where mostly cruisers or destroyers, they could only realistically provide more point defense rather than help with the larger ship to ship battle. It was made for a specific role and the republic navy decided it would fit all the roles

[@Galdenberry_Lamphuck]

@@Ozpawn even then its a new canon issue since the republic navy had Carracks, Praetors, Procurators, and Rindilli Dreadnoughts in the early stages of the war and had Imperators, Tectors, Vindicators, Secutors and many more in the later stages of the war. Then Georgie boy decided that nope the republic navy is just venators because he has a childlike understanding of how military procurement works. Thus we get back to palpatine being a literal fucking god with perfect predicting ability so everyone argues "Its stupid on purpose" which kinda murders any interest i have in the setting

[@reeseb5502]

As much I like the clones they would have lost if it wasn't for palpatine, the droids really out number the clones 100 to 1. Plus the fact the C.I.S didn't need to worry about having any wounded and feeding them due to the army being droids.

[@Galdenberry_Lamphuck]

@@reeseb5502 It would only be a matter of time before the various CIS powers turn their armies on eachother. Without palpatine's omniscient bullshit the republic would be much stronger, have a centralized military, Katana Fleet, many more jedi masters, and also not have to worry about Sith or Grievious

[@sourcedudetrustme8831]

They could just put the clones into cryogenic stasis once they've finished training, if that's a thing in the star wars galaxy. That way they can be used decades, or potentially centuries later.

[@RorikH]

That's a cool idea, but maintaining millions of people in stasis for decades could be absurdly expensive, and also they'd be completely out of the loop on decades/centuries worth of technological developments, though that wouldn't be as big an issue since Star Wars doesn't progress very rapidly.

[@SuperThest]

@@RorikH There is carbonite freezing in star wars which preserves people and cost next to nothing to maintain. That would allow you to store millions of clones in a warehouse somewhere on Coruscant for the Star wars equivalent of pennies. You'd just have to pay for the storage space and some employees to guard and maintain the place. You'd basically just build a military fortification and staff it which is something the republic would be doing anyway regardless of if they had the clones.

[@RorikH]

@@SuperThest Maybe that's where Palpatine got the ice zombies to man the Sith Eternal fleet.

[@Coid]

@@SuperThest IIRC, Carbonite Freezing was a method of storing Tabanna Gas for ease of shipment and they weren't sure if it wouldn't kill a person, that's why they tested it on Han Solo so that they could know if it would just kill Luke Skywalker when they wanted to capture him. So it was never intended to store humans and they didn't try it until, what, 20 years after the Clone Wars?

[@SuperThest]

@@Coid I think there was an episode of the Clone Wars where they froze Jedi and troopers to get them past a bio scanner so they definitely knew it was possible. I think Sith from the Old Republic Era also froze themselves, but I'm not sure if that would still be cannon. I think they were just testing that specific "Freezer" since Lando mentioned that one had never specifically been used like that before. Vader was already sold on the idea though, since he was the one who Froze himself, Obi Wan, and several clones in the clone wars

[@Aphfaneire]

Moot considering Palpetine was pulling strings in both directions. Dooku was his pawn who fucked up just at the right moment to almost be too early but Kenobi actually opened the can of worms by tracing Fett back to Kamino... So many mistakes helped Palpetine in the end...

[@xertris]

Good point. If Dooku had just killed Kenobi and/or made sure Jango stayed put the galaxy would have been non- the wiser and Palps would have had more discretion.

[@wolfrainexxx]

Doesn't help that the Grand Republic featured 6,400,000 Clones at their peak, while the CIS had that many Droids on a scout fleet.

[@Andy_Sidaris]

They should have lost just from the tiny number of clones they had to fight billions of battle droids. Logistically there is no way they could have won just from attrition

[@theliato3809]

We can extrapolate they had several billion Clone combatants from all the time the Kaminoans and magnitudes more of Local Defense Forces at the ready to handle the Confederacy of Independenant Systems.

[@sayerglasgow115]

Well luckily they weren't fighting the war just by mindlessly grinding clones into the droid armies.

[@Andy_Sidaris]

@@sayerglasgow115 Unless you look at any form of media showing that that is exactly what they did

[@Andy_Sidaris]

@@theliato3809 We know they didn't have billions and that they took years to grow. The Local Defense Forces yes but not the GAR

[@cjstanky]

i mean droids still have to be built and the loss of places like Geonosis would greatly inhibit CIS capabilities. Plus funding is a factor, even with corprate interests backing the seperatists, it doesn't change the fact that building a massive army is expensive and most of the planets backing the seperatists weren't exactly rolling in cash. So basically the CIS lost its main production facility at the start of the war.

[@mr.bottle]

Funny how you mention how clone armies only work for premeditated aggression given that that was exactly the clones' intended purpose - the target was simply not who everyone else expected it to be.

[@lostmarble540]

wow imagine spending decades subtly creating geopolitical strife and managing logistics for a galaxy-wide coup, and then having your superweapon blown up cuz of a minor engineering flaw

[@daverapp]

It's almost like the dude was arrogant or something. Maybe even a little overconfident. Wouldn't it have been interesting if someone other character in the franchise had said to him, "Your overconfidence is you weakness" at some point. I bet he wouldn't have even had a comeback for that.

[@thefirstprimariscatosicari6870]

That's known as sitting on one's laurels. Palpatine thought he had won, and let himself be swallowed by Sidious, becoming complement and cruel and corrupted into inefficiency.

[@mrdrprof8402]

Couple notes: 1: I don't think accelerated aging is necessary. It is if you want your clones ready fast but if you've got an existing army you wanna phase out having clones who last longer is a good idea. 2: on that note cycling batches of clones so you've always got fresh ones rolling in, much like natural born people, would get around a lot of issues as it's like having a standing army but... Idk you can just melt the veterans into soylent green instead of just not giving them benefits. 3: Also depends on tech. If you can vat grow clones and install a chip in their heads to make em fighting machines super fast it might be a valid tactic. At that point they'd be like robotic soldiers but might be cheaper or work with readily accessible resources.

[@volrosku.6075]

Fortunately even if the GAR was late or the CIS initiated the war early local militias and planetary defence forces alongside Jedi the Judicial forces and what was available of the various fleets on top of the republic's own manufacturing capabilities would have been able to prevent a quick CIS victory and said delays for the driods and separatist PDFs would have given the clones or some other professional force time to gear up and go on the offensive

[@cjstanky]

plus losing Geonosis is a pretty major blow to the CIS. Even if they would go back to the planet later in the war, they basically lost a lot of production in the early war when they could have swarmed the GAR at its smallest and weakest

[@volrosku.6075]

@@cjstanky indeed first Geonosis in my mind didn't give the GAR breathing room but the navy as sure we see old salts like Yularian who had experience but more republic navymen were Judicial corps members with no battle experience or even less qualified, meanwhile Trench and Grievous along several others had true battle experience and it made the first year of the war hell even with geonosis under GAR control for a time

[@hugo6693]

Considering the fact that the Clone Wars were an important part in Palpatine's grand plan to destroy the jedi and that he played both sides I don't believe the Republic could've ever lost the war...

[@kevincloud574]

EXACTLY

[@DetectiveLance]

Unless Palpatine was properly arrested early or killed.

[@singletona082]

Easy. Lose. Dooku 'defects' once the dragic losso f the jedi order has happened, beats back the sepretists, and palps dictator's himself. All after securing a young impressionable teenage anakin as his apprentice. The Clone Wars would have been preferrable since it allows a slow normalization of power consolidation, but the quick path works too.

[@Arbyfig]

^this, I mean honestly without Palpatine god knows what would have actually taken place, remember Palpatine was the one that nudged the trade federation to do the blockade, he orchestrated the war, and the clones, he needed the republic to survive so he could turn it into the empire. Without Palpatine's meddling, and if there was the 'clone wars' without clones, I am confident the CIS would eventually win, just the nature of the droids and the way it simplifies their logistics.

[@mattstorm360]

@@DetectiveLance If that happened Early in the war then the war would likely end with the Republic and Separatists making peace, no matter what Dooku tries. If it happens later in the war you either have a total republic victory or total Separatists victory depending who is still in play.

[@robinfalkner-wedge824]

the Clone Army would- and does, work really well in a setting like Warhammer. See the Death Corps of Kreig as an example; They're basically WW1-style clone troopers and it works because Krieg is a warworld that is constantly shoving soldiers into meat grinders across a galaxy where their rulers will sometimes just let a place lose only to show up with a new army and settlers a hundred years later.

[@singletona082]

Easy to have the army you have being the army you want when the guy in charge is also in charge of the enemy's troop composition so can make a war that is, to the commoner and those commanding, believable that this is a thing.

[@rexlumontad5644]

"With these new battle droids we've built for you, you'll have the finest army in the galaxy." - Wat Tambor to Count Dooku

[@17091ira0072]

What if they could make a clone army, then store then in carbonite (though obviously mobalising would take time still, and I don't know how long it is safe to keep them stored) I feel like it was a cliff hanger at the end of empire at war tiber zann's sequal, where the night sister was waking up an army.

[@PrinceAlhorian]

Nobody even going to comment on the fact the the clones were practically child soldiers? Sure, their physical bodies are in their 20's but psychologically they were 10.

[@SaltyChickenDip]

A slave army too.

[@a.morphous66]

They were most definitely not psychologically ten years old. Their brains developed just as quickly as their physical bodies, and they underwent a lot of psychological conditioning during training. So while they lacked life experiences outside of Kamino and were chronologically ten, they were probably psychologically hardier than regular soldiers - on the battlefield, that is, off it they were woefully stunted.

[@Technofier]

I think a clone army mostly only makes sense in one of two scenarios: 1) The Star Wars Clone Wars scenario, or similar, where you need a large army whose size and fighting ability is largely independent of your population and it's fighting capability (an underground resistance with very good secrecy and decades to prepare comes to mind). 2) A constant-war scenario, where an aggressor doesn't need to time their mobilization perfectly, and only needs to keep the very first batch a secret, because they are in a constant state of war, either of their own making or as reactions to earlier wars. Clone fit this scenario almost perfectly provided the 10-year-mobilization problem for the initial batch can be negated (say with a standing army of volunteers or conscripts as some have suggested), the reason clones fit nearly perfectly in this scenario, is not only that constant war meshes well with the short 10-year service time, but a clone army means that the aggressor doesn't need to maintain an unpopular conscription or volunteer program, nor worry about depletion of their fighting-eligible population.

[@RealCodreX]

2:04 Bismarck: "Allow me to introduce myself!"

[@GaldirEonai]

There's another old saying that encapsulates Palpatine's approach pretty well: "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."

[@jathrucranli4201]

The statement about a clone army being most viable for attack rather than defense is both genius and chilling. The principles of war themselves had been a clue to the jedi and the republic all-along about what was really set into motion. Yes, Sifo Dyas (if I recall correctly) was said to have been receiving visions of the coming conflict, but still, it would've been interesting if this was brought-up during the jedi order's hunt for the sith lord in control of the senate.

[@akiramasashi9317]

I think you somewhat underestimate how long Clones remain an effective fighting force. Captain Rex, who was a first gen clone trooper was still alive and fighting at the Battle of Endor, which was 20 odd years AFTER the Clone Wars ended. I haven't seen Bad Batch yet but afaik there is no reason to assume the Clones' accelerated aging DOESN'T stop when they reach adulthood, after which they continue to age at a normal pace.

[@TitusCastiglione1503]

Why wouldn’t it keep going? In any case, Rex has a white beard by the time of the original films. He’s still capable of fighting, but physically he’s definitely aged.

[@808INFantry11X]

Besides breaking it down to space magic how would you stop advanced againg its biological sure you can extend a life but it's contrary to what you need which is a quick growing clone to reach military age in months. The problem is its like having an army of dogs they can only stay in service for about 10 years more often then not less. These just predictable variables what about the unpredictable such as flaws in the cloning process illnesses that affect clones for example those factor in to and of course because everything comes down to money everything in the miltiary eventually does served in the US Navy and Army myself and seen and studied enough on how military programs operate.

[@akiramasashi9317]

@@808INFantry11X The thing about aging is that it's just degradation of the Telomeres, which is exaggerated in Clones as the Telomeres are taken from an adult, who's Telomeres are already breaking down, but I'm sure the expert biologist clone masters of Kamino can halt it, or at least slow it down to a normal rate. I'm pretty sure that in the (now defunct) expanded universe a good number of clones took treatment for exactly that and joined various Mandalorian clans.

[@808INFantry11X]

@@akiramasashi9317 It doesn't exactly work like that it's genetics once you manipulate someone or something genome like that it there is no take backs you accelerate aging that's it it's done. That's why if your looking for longer life spans for clone you use unaltered clones like Boba Fett but then you got to deal with regular aging. There is no such thing as a free lunch here everything is a trade off.

[@808INFantry11X]

@@akiramasashi9317 if your argument is they got this magical device or ability to stop the aging they have initiated by design its not how biology and cloning work. You can't have accelerated aging and slow down of age once they hit the appropriate age it doesn't work like that.

[@chimera9818]

I feel like clone army in actual war should only be thing if you have never ending war and need to replace regular soldiers with something when they start to run out or don’t want to kill your entire workforce when it becomes apparent that it will happen if you continue

[@Andy_Sidaris]

Or for genetically Superior troops but seems like they should have been used as elite troops instead of thrown in waves at an enemy that would always massively outnumber them

[@Its-Just-Zip]

Krieg says hello. Because it turns out that in the grim darkness of the far future where there is only war, clones do in fact work

[@isaiahgrey2458]

@@Its-Just-Zip For the emprah.

[@BNOBLE981]

Makes you think if Jango had a different rendezvous point other than Geonosis, after escaping Obi Wan, the Republic would not have found out about the droid army until it was ready to deploy.

[@Reoh0z]

There's a second part to this. How long were the CIS stockpiling their droid army, and what did they do to keep the size of that army quiet?

[@enisra_bowman]

the B1 Battledroids may have the Name "Battledroids" in their name, but otherwise only equiped with a Blaster, so it would be plausible to deney their military purpose or even existens since if there is no Inspectors running around and demands to see the Droids, you can claim you are building harmles protocol droids and while it was for us a Gag, the Head of a 3PO Series works flawlessly on a B1 Body also: the Galaxy is Large and they found out about the plant at Geonosis 1-2 Days before the war broke out and for other gear they have and can't hide building Parts of it, maybe a hyperdrive, ship it somewhere, mislabel it, redirect it while in transport, you want to start a war with the "Nation" you are in it, it's not that you have to play fair

[@thefirstprimariscatosicari6870]

Because the droids weren't a secret. They were simply, each corporation separate civilian product and/or security and/or completely legal private army. What was kept secret, is that said private armies were being developed to synergise and merge into one large insurrection. As others said, the most common design, the B1 droid, wasn't armed by blueprint, so the large majority of droids produced could be reasonably written off as droid laborers, with only a fraction being upgraded for security. The B2 was almost surely a secret, and clearly only started mass production after the war started. The Vulture droids are very short ranged and incapable of FTL travel, so could be justified again, as a self-defense/security measure, or for the legal private army. The same for the tanks. The Droidekas were few even during the war, before it they were probably a rare security measure for VIPs. As for the navy, several designs, like the Lucrehulks, were converted civilian bulk transports. Sturdy for redundancy. Shielded and designed to be upgunned to fight piracy. Others, like the Munificent and Recusant, were designed to be extremely fast to mass produce, and were reasonably weak enough to be justified as patrol crafts, especially if their true armament was only a late addition. Only the most egregious offenders, like the Providence and Subjugator classes, would have had to be kept secret.

[@theliato3809]

(1:17) They weren't starting only from scratch. The republic mandated that each planet and/or sector maintain a defense force to help protect themsleves. Once proper war was engaged the Republic central government would have lifted a great many restrictions placed on these local defense forces so that instead of zero they might very well have billions of military personal and proportional amounts of wartime assets. The difficulty lies in deploying them to other systems but that is what The Clone forces which make up The Grand Army of The Republic are for.

[@blecao]

You know the logistical pain that would be to use an army that each planet raises individually they hadnt train towether at any time and even have diferent biological needs due to the diferent species that can even have rivalries betwen them Is basically the reicharmee but with ten times the problems that isnt really a good combat force

[@yoloman3607]

Well the whole reason the CIS exists is because local systems weren’t able to raise arms to defend themselves. Even if mobilized the various friendly systems would have basically zero heavy weapons or warships just like they did in the clone wars.

[@theliato3809]

@@blecao Thats what the imperial army was put together for over the course of the war while the clones acted as the core of the army.

[@theliato3809]

@@yoloman3607 They werent allowed to by the laws of The Rusaan Reformation. Once the war was on they could start properly arming themsleves until the Army and Navy were properly built up.

[@yoloman3607]

@@theliato3809 Yeah that wouldn’t work out. They’d just get occupied like most of the vulnerable republics worlds and never get the chance to muster against the CIS, who had been building battledroids for around a decade. Just a handful of destroyer and vulture droids from the first generation of Trade Federation battledroids would be enough to completely crush untrained militia with no heavy weapons and no time to construct any.

[@strategossable1366]

Use reserves from the normal population like they did with stormtroopers eventually anyway because of the above mentioned accelerated aging of clones. I honestly think the presence of accelerated aging makes the whole universe's military logic fit together so well.

[@w0t3rdog]

The logical solution to the longevity of a clone army would be to only accelerate the growth of the initial batches, and then have normal growth for the long term force. Sustained accelerated growth just seemed nutty.

[@casbot71]

A (pragmatic) Clone Army could transition to peacetime by modifying the Clones aging to give them _longer lifespans._ They could even be modified to have _far longer_ than normal Human lifespans! The advantage of this is far more time for training, so that by the time the 18 years *biological age* Clone is ready for service, they have had 30 years or even more of high quality training. They would be superhuman in their abilities and cross trained in many different skills. [Imagine a 100 year old Bobba Fett with the body and reflexes of a 25 - 30 year old… ] And their service life would be far longer, giving far more bang for buck and reducing the turnover and replacement requirements. If each Clone gives the GAR for example 200 years+ of service then it's worthwhile to invest in top notch training for them. And even their retirement would be more ethical, not having the spectre of a rapid aging death hanging over them. Retirement benifits and perhaps a job training regular planetary guards or just peaceful relaxing (and free plastic surgery to customise their appearance) - it would not be a big drain on the Republic. The startup time is of course multiple Human generations, but the standard Clone Army are the stopgap till the new "super" Army are online. They would be utilised differently as being cannon fodder would be a unacceptable waste, but with their extensive training they would be able to come up with solutions themselves that don't involve Human Wave attacks … just make sure that the Jedi know that the average (super) Clone have better tactical and strategic planning and knowledge than they do. They would make the guaranteed _competent_ core of the military, and Special Forces renaissance men that would make Nietzsche proud. While not having that magic tricks of the Jedi, they would still be extremely formidable _and far more reliable_ [*biochip issues resolved].

[@mikhailmikhaylov1862]

It's kind of amazing, all these tidbits the Templin Institute thinks about regarding sci-fi militaries compared to the mediums in which they actually appear.

[@Consaibot1]

In old EU, it's all but stated that had the CIS not been restrained by Dooku and Palpatine, the CIS would've won. Clone Army or not. By the time of The 1st Battle of Geonosis, the Droid Army was so numerically superior they could've swamped the Republic. Plus the Republic Navy had to re-adapt a lot of its Doctrines and Venators weren't off the assembly line yet...I could go on.

[@darkninjacorporation]

I definitely feel like the Separatist droid army’s rapid production rate and longevity combined with the Republic military leadership’s exceptional strategy would be the ultimate fighting force in galactic history, though perhaps they should stay away from prioritizing quantity over quality. Shelling out for higher quality droids might close the gap left by ditching the adaptable clones.

[@SuperThest]

The Problem with saying that the clone army makes sense because Sidious planned for everything, is that Sidious didn't originally order the clones, Sifo-Dyas did. Sifo-Dyas's original idea of ordering the clones in preparation of a war he saw in a vision is still a dumb idea.

[@marcbartuschka6372]

Of course in legends there were alternatives. There were other methods of cloning wich needed just one year (and could be cut even further if you were able to use some tricks like Thrawn did). That was of course written long before the concept of the Clone Wars as we see them in the prequals and Series were thought through. So it depends what kind of clones you use. In other SciFi-settings I guess things could look very different, too. In a certain degree you have such "constructed armies" in fantasy too, if your soldiers are breed and their numbers grow in a unnatural way.

[@rexlumontad5644]

Mak Plain of the Banking Clan: "The Separatists don't seem to mind a rate hike. In fact, they just secured a loan to fund an additional three million battle droids." Republic Senator Onaconda Farr: "They would wipe us out."

[@RJKilroy]

Palpatine’s plan could’ve instantly fallen apart if Count Dooku had decided “fuck this conspiracy noise, I’m playing to win” and actually led the Confederacy to victory

[@AB-gk8cs]

Nice Sort to highlighten a logical weakness that at least I had overlooked 😆. I guess old Palpi was INDEED as all-knowing as he liked to tinink of himself. And in fact all went indeed acording as planned...😉

[@thenerdfulspirit]

A few points: episode 2 is called "Attack of the Clones" for a reason; Seppie/Dooku sympathisers would see the clone assault on Geonosis as such. Maybe this explains why Luke Skywalker had heard of the clone wars but not the Jedi, Geonosis being in the next system over (practically in the next room in galactic terms). Palpatine may have been testing the Jedi to see how long it actually would take them to discover the clones. An early discovery would probably provoke the separatists to attack loyal systems and , with a more incomplete army , the senate would vote to establish a standing army and immediately begin recruitment. It would probably work better for Palpatine if the army was discovered later (perhaps by just a few days if Fett was able to slay Kenobi, this would on turn likely alienate Skywalker from the rest of the Jedi and maybe even leave the order, assuming he survives Geonosis) as all the leading Jedi bar Yoda would be killed or captured, but this would rally more systems behind the Republic and the remaining Jedi. If the army was discovered earlier, the war could drag on for much longer, but the Jedi 's executioners would be surrounded by "normals" (who don't have chips in their heads to guarantee loyalty) making sure that more would likely survive

[@csventura6607]

Could you do a video on the battle tech universe?

[@The_Viscount]

You can have a batch with accelerated aging for 10 years, a batch for 15 years, and an unaccelerated batch. After that, you keep making unacceperated clones. Presumably, this would be a way to phase out standard troops or draftees. You'd use this as a 20 year plan to replace a conventional military.

[@KaiserMattTygore927]

What if a faction that used clones had them in stasis or cryosleep when not on active duty?

[@lordofwolves2147]

even with palpatine at the head of both factions it is very odd that the republic never wanted to mobilize like the later empire did maybe instead keeping clones as special forces or vanguard or shock troops it always struck me as odd

[@dannybeane2069]

Begs the question, why didn't Palpatine just mobilize the droid army a year or two shortly after the battle of Naboo. Given the Republic had literally no standing army, a local defense army force would have put the droids at around 1000 to 1 in terms of man power and if you factor in the lack of experience a police, or local defense army, would have against a fully trained army (like having the local sheriff take on 10 trained Marines with his service pistol) the advantage is probably closer to 5000-10000 to 1. Jedis or not, you physically can't loss with odds like that. Palps could take over as Darth Sideous, steal Anakin as a youngling/Padawan, break him to the dark side, and have an extra decade to form his Empire, and an extra decade to prepare for the Vong

[@theliato3809]

If the events on Geonsis are an indication. The megacorporate entities which supplied much of the sepratists military needed time to build up properly. Counting credits would have stopped them from having an excessively large force to do so.

[@singletona082]

It isn't just about taking over. He had to normalize the consolidation of power. Had he just rolled in 'I am emperor now' there would be messy resistance that would take time out from him doing Sith Stuff. That's messy and ineffeciant. better to have a population eased onto the yoke placed on them. Systems put in place and streamlined through war to both justify that consolidation as well as normalize hardship. That way any easing of restrictions will be celebrated. Plus having the sepretists using a droid army means that any rebellions will be unlikely to reach for droids as a way to bulk up their numbers due to public perceptions of combat droids as well as then still living memory of what the clone wars were like. in short. the war not only allowed palpatine to take control with shockingly little death as compared to a bloody coup, but he also swpet hte legs otu from potential resistance by depriving them of the best means they couldh ave used to fight back.

[@sarpyasar5893]

Plus before palpatine every evil sith tried to do that (with a mix of droid and organic soldiers) every one of them failed because they never had the numbers ,public support and more stable structure of the republic

[@ChristopherGriffin-ee2ol]

The Droid Army, on the other hand, had the factories to produce its soldiers as 99% of it already being battle droids cause at its peak, the Droid Military had a total personnel count of literally quintillions of battle droids, yet it was snuffed out and shut down by Anakin Skywalker

[@Dan19870]

If the separatists had kicked things off a little earlier than Darth Sidious had planned, I'd imagine that a lot of worlds in the Republic would scramble to assemble Militia armies and press ships into service as planetary defense flotilla's. I imagine as things begin to look bleak there will be those in the Senate who urge the Chancellor to use the Clone Force in it's current state, which would essentially mean they are using children soldiers. Also here's a thought, why did the Trade Federation utilise tanks that required a droid tank crew during the Invasion of Naboo? Wouldn't it have been simpler to build a tank with a built in AI?

[@Coid]

The main reason that really makes sense would be if it were a model they had initially produced for potential sale for humanoids or a battledroid army that didn't use the same command ship style setup as the Trade Federation. The other is that Star Wars doesn't really seem to like the idea of having a droid intelligence in charge of a vehicle except by interfacing with it from another, smaller physical body. That or maybe they wanted to be able to switch out the B1s in it, rather than have a droid personality in the tank start to get personality quirks like powertripping.

[@timwise7277]

“If the war starts too early, your entire force could be still in diapers. If it starts too late, they could also be in diapers.”

[@josepigroyper370]

You forgot that the republic also had system level defense forces that could be activated and sent to the front and were used in the clone wars to fill the gaps of the unimportant parts of the front

[@ballspenguin2264]

Nice

[@wedgeantillies66]

Easy to do, when the Sith are controlling both sides from the start and top down as Sidious pulled the strings masterfully to have two powerful sides with respective militaries ready to fight at time of his choosing to ensure a bloody equal conflict that will enable him to use it to break down last constitutional restraints on him and eventually wipe out his remaining enemies to create an empire with himself at its head.

[@podsmpsg1]

Battle Droids can be replaced much faster than Clone soldiers.

[@59rlmccormack]

That”s good advice.

[@Mediados]

The funniest thing about the Republic is that if they hadn't "cheated" so to speak, the Seperatists would have simply outgunned them by far. I mean they gave the Republic a hard fight even with the clone army. Had Sidious died in any way before Order 66, Dooku would probably be head of state in the new Federation.

[@alphys1172]

What if he died on the ship at the beginning of revenge of the sith?

[@joshuadelbelbelluz8325]

I honestly can’t wait for the clone Wars regained that would be epic

[@sergeantassassin3425]

In another aspect, the Republic nearly lost the war just AFTER it had begun. The Defense of Rishi Station, coupled with the subsequent Battle of Kamino a year later, almost destroyed the Kaminoan cloning facilities, which would have cost the Republic the war.

[@aurorathekitty7854]

The Republic didn't rely on clones alone like the CIS didn't rely on droid's alone.

[@rodrigovillegas5630]

It is absurd to think that the defense of the Republic falls solely on the clones. The clone army is perfect for planet assault but it cannot be on every world that needs to be defended. It is very probable that republic militias were formed on each planet, which gives the Clone wars more potential for lore.

[@nicktechnubyte1184]

Clone Trooper: For the Republic!

[@nicholaswalsh4462]

A volunteer Galactic Military would number some 500 trillion beings, based on the canonical population of 100 quadrillion beings.

[@chudez]

so obi-wan -- while investigating the attempted assasination on a anti-war senator -- discovers a hidden bespoke clone army that was ordered long before there was any need for it. he then later discovers a direct link between the clone army that needed a war and a rebel faction that conveniently provides it. and no one found this to be suspicious?

[@IamBlackToast]

You left out the part where it was a Jedi council member that did the ordering behind everyone’s back.

[@Galdenberry_Lamphuck]

Every clone in the entire republic army taking on 1,000,000,000 droids apiece

[@lordMartiya]

Counterpoint: the Separatists didn't have a droid army until shortly before the Clone Wars. If the war had started two or three years early, it would have been entirely up to the existing organic forces on both sides, and the Republic had a ridiculous advantage there.

[@jakespacepiratee3740]

I think it’s safe to say that they pretty much did lose the Clone Wars. The Separatists too.

[@michaelrichardson6569]

And the cloning facilities become an obvious target for the enemy forces... just as they did in The Clone Wars cartoon. Of course, the Sidious/Dooku manipulation can't be overstated. Both were doomed, and were basically not much better than if they were toy soldiers in a kid's toybox. :)

[@davidmoslow4177]

Palp didn't necessarily NEED the GAR to win. Yes, it sold him better into his transition into emperor. But since he was secretly pulling the strings of the CIS as well, if they ended up crushing the republic, he could have just as easily "brokered a deal" after the jedi were hunted by the droid armies that lead to the dissolution of the the CIS with him as the emperor

[@cass7448]

I always figured he left open the possibility of forming his empire out of the CIS rather than the Republic as a contingency scenario; likely controlling it through the corporations rather than through a cult of personality.

[@NobleWolf]

Having a Clone army is cool, but I would only use it to supplement my forces and have them used in special tasks most soldiers would have difficulty executing.

[@jeambeam3173]

Then you have to deal with having to pay most of your forces and dealing with a planets happiness based on how those forces are doing

[@NobleWolf]

@@jeambeam3173 You win wars with hearts and minds. Having a bit of rivalry in your army does give the soldiers something to do. And paying your army is often the first thing you do.

[@dylanhoare8203]

If you can use aging to grow up a clone who said you can bring it to a stop as well

[@ztheo2280]

Im pretty sure the "the entire force would be in diapers" is actually pretty closely said by one RC in the republic commando books

[@pinecone3334]

Templin institute advises his viewers against using clone soldiers, not by making any moral argument, but by appealing to utility.

[@draco84oz]

One could almost counter - was the clone army actually necessary? Whilst the separatist crisis was certainly something for the Republic to worry about, was it destined to end in a war? My understanding of it (from Attack of the Clones) was that a lot of the escalation came as a result of the millitary expansion bill in the Senate, started as a result of the "threat of the separatists". But the separatists in turn were building up the droid army as a bulwark against the threat of the Republic attacking. My thinking is that if the Republic had kept its cool and been seen to not build up its millitary, instead reaching out peacefully, it is entirely possible that the two sides would have ended up staring at each other across a frontier, and eventually diplomacy would have ended in a detente. Sure, you might have extremists on either side staging raids all over the place, but local forces could have potentially handled those easily enough. The issue is that both sides were being egged on by those with a more sinister agenda...

[@guilo44]

I mean there wasn't war until the Jedi and Clone aggression on Geonosis

[@shinsenshogun900]

Do a nation called the United Cities in a game called Kenshi

[@JMAssainatorz]

I do belive the accellerated aging might have stopped when the clones reached maturity. It has been many years since the clone wars by the time of starwars rebbels and rex n co are still kicking!

[@Dendricklystable]

Not the case. Rebels is 15-19 years after revenge of the Sith. If Rex stopped aging quickly when he was biologically 20 that means he isn't even 40 by the time rebels ends. I know obi wan aged quickly but that is ridiculous

[@trygveplaustrum4634]

In defense of the Republic, I'd like to quote Jar Jar Binks, "Wesa warriors. Wesa gotta grand army."

[@samdurfee6093]

It’s that s your “Subject Interpretation” of the Clone Wars?

[@LordCommander-ui2fw]

One solution for the problem of clone aging would be to either make it so that the growth acceleration halts once the clones reach complete physical maturity as part of the clone's genetic modification from the get-go or to create a "cure" to be administered once the Clones are fully matured.

[@jacobwiren8142]

And the cure comes in monthly boosters, so they have to stay loyal...

[@justepourlacheruncom8393]

Ther is another flaw with the born to be warrior trope. You had to paid in money, time and ressources for evey clone you raise. And this strongly outcost in any countries temporary conscripting an entire generation educated and feed by themselves. Especially if we speak about standard infantry troops . What the point in spending even ten years for raising a clone if you use it has cannon fodder. Training young people for one of two years give you functional soldiers, close enough in performance term for imitating clones and fulfill there tasks. But far more cheaper. Historically people "raised to fight" full time were elites troops with some kind of political power like medieval knights or janissaries.

[@PsychoStreak]

Even without the Clones to fill the ranks of the GAR, Palpatine would have all but eliminated the Jedi, as Yoda would have no cavalry to ride to the rescue with. A large portion of the council, Anakin, Obi-Wan and Padme all dead, no real threats to Palpatine except Yoda and the few remaining Masters, and possibly hundreds of Padawans now without Masters. Or worse, he takes advantage of Anakin's despair and Kenobi's doubts and with noone to save them, Dooku sways one or both Jedi into joining him; making it look like a Jedi killed Padme would be sufficient at that point. Those Jedi that did remain would still get pressed into service as field generals, only commanding over hastily organized non-clone troops consisting of defense forces from systems loyal to the Republic. Tarkin would have played a much larger role earlier on, bringing him into conflict with the Jedi even more. Since Sidious was effectively controlling both sides of the war, he could still drag things out to further decimate and disenfranchise the Jedi. It would be fairly easy to goad the Mandalorians into siding with the CIS by stoking the old enmity with the Jedi. Once the Jedi are reduced to nothing, Palpatine negotiates a miraculous peace and end the war that ravaged the galaxy and broke even the vaunted Jedi, promising reforms and sweeping changes that would address the legitimate concerns of the CIS, wiping out corruption in the Senate forming a new Galactic Empire built around peace and fairness. The droids - controllable and incorruptible would become the impartial protectors of the Empire.

[@mosesmm5473]

It's already been debated and to some extent, confirmed that if Palpatine wasn't pulling the strings on both sides, the Republic would have lost, Clones or no. The Separatists not only outnumbered the Clones 100 to One in terms of battle droids to clones but if say, the entire force was made from Republic citizens instead, the people and government wouldn't have been as eager to continue to fight as the war dragged on as it won't be Clones fighting, dying and returning home broken and scared, but people they know, people with names and full rights. And for the senators, people who can vote. I can't see the CIS not deciding on a strategy to bleed the Republic of manpower and funds that they'll be forced to accept defeat and allow the worlds that make up the CIT to secede from the Republic.

[@xionkuriyama5697]

Sometimes I do wonder why Sidious didn't simply choose to be the victorious Sepratist leader. Could have popped off his plan much sooner.

[@FormerBunsenBurner]

If Papa Palps was the Sepratist leader, there wouldn't have been a separatist movement in the first place, since he had to influence the Senate into taxing and oppressing the Outer Rim

[@sarpyasar5893]

Well the public support could have depleted the moment he started the war it is easier to use the corruption in the republic (which was even before the palpatine was inefficient, xienophobic , greedy the only mercy they had left was the jedi and few a actually good senator)

[@lamario295]

The Seperatists would've stood a chance if Dooku wasn't the one in charge. He was intentionally making them do dumb shit just so the Jedi would be stretched thin

[@theliato3809]

A common statement. Though if the machinations of the Sith were not involved the Clone wars would be vastly different. Perhaps clones droids jedi and countless species split onto both sides.

[@rjr6274]

There was no risk of the Republic losing the war, never. The war was part of a plot for the chancelor obtaining absolute power. Both sides were controled by the same leader who basicly played chess alone aiming to create a situation where chaos was installed and he could grow by presenting himself as the saviour. He never played for CIS victory.

[@buddyhancock1766]

What if the clones aging was slowed after maturing?

[@blagojpejov4155]

Wow this was intresting

[@g.f.martianshipyards9328]

So topical to the current BB episodes. Love it.

[@aoki6332]

I find it dumb how Disney changed this from legend in legend the Kaminoan where not the only cloners and during the clone war Palpatine actually orders cheaper clone to fuel the manpower since a lot where dying so Arkanian Microtechnologies instead of taking 10 years it will take 1 and be the end of the war 3/4 of the clone still alive where made be them they where way less train than the original but it was a clear constract to what The Empire will be

[@soupcake3092]

If it wasn't for papa palpatine running both sides, the CIS probably would have won the war or at least been able to quickly secure complete independence.

[@panos617]

Many peopole even they are STAR WARS Fans or not have lost the point : The CIS were programic to failed. The Sepretists they appiered as a threat in order the Galactic Empire to be more exetabole to the Galaxy.

[@ToxicBastard]

Why not just keep adult clones in stasis? Carbonite freeze an army like the Sith did.

[@ThePalaeontologist]

Clone numbers never really made sense. The Rakatan Infinite Empire had 10 billion warriors on 500 worlds. Not so infinite an Empire, no, but at the time hyperdrive technology was limited to locking onto force signatures of life-rich planets or force nexuses. The Rakata would have eventually gotten round to making more advanced technology if they had more time in power. 500 planets wildly spread out, still being a major Empire at the time. They menaced the _known_ galaxy for the most part, over 25,000-36,000 BBY. 10 billion warriors might sound odd, but it's really not. It works out at about 20 million Rakatan warriors per planet (acknowledging the obvious likelihood of Rakata Prime/Lehon their homeworld and many other stronghold worlds being much more heavily garrisoned, while others may have had fewer than the 20 million average on that basis) It makes even more sense, knowing how far apart a lot of them were (they'd need tough militaries far and wide, being randomly dispersed; not as if hundreds of local planets would back them up) 20 million troops per world might sound a lot based on what we've seen during the timeline of the Star Wars. For instance, even on Geonosis on Day 1 of the Clone Wars, there were 'only' about a million droids deployed with about 3.7 million in storage/evacuated. That really comes down to the Clones - numbering about 192,000 - defeating an army 5 times their number with many more in reserve. Yet it still comes nowhere close to the 20 million figure. However, what we see on Geonosis in 22 BBY shouldn't be the benchmark to measure everything off of. Nor should be the Rakatan numbers. It's just interesting to compare them. In the real-world 21st century there are approximately 28-30 million soldiers on the planet (about 27-29 million or so in 2019) There are a lot of those coming from the bigger powers on Earth, yes, though if an alien came to Earth to scout for armed resistance from regular forces, they'd potentially be able to recognise about ~30 million or so military units (even prior to the massive recruitment surges many countries would blatantly go through if they were, you know, under attack from an alien invader) The Rakatans were powerful for a long time, as tyrannical, enslaving overlords and immoral/amoral bioengineering cannibals. They weren't going to mess around with military numbers especially when they literally possessed _1 trillion slaves_ to keep everything running (plus unknown numbers of early droids) They were ultra-militant and very clearly capable of being a problem for almost anyone (though I love the idea of the Zeffo giving them problems) The Clones having about 3,000,000 or so troops, with another 5,000,000 canonically mentioned in TCW (during the episode where they are discussing the acquisition of another 5,000,000 clones in the Senate; of the 'Senator Amidala Episodes' in other words), itself implies 8 million. 8 million is very rarely suggested as the canonical scenes in TCW are often overlooked or forgotten. The truth is, we don't know for sure exactly how many clones there were. And yes, there was always that old chestnut of using apologetic semantics and contextual ambiguity to imply that '200,000 units are ready and another million are well on the way', allegedly could have meant, 'unit = battalion/regiment/even legion' etc. Alas. I had the same ideas, but the problem is, it doesn't work out that way. 200,000 units literally just meant two-hundred thousand men. That is it. Why? Well, how come 192,000 suddenly deploy to Geonosis? Seems unlikely that those numbers are not connected. You could still bend the rules and use contextual ambiguity apologetics to explain it away, but it still clearly is related. 200,000, from which 192,000 or so immediately do battle on Geonosis. We know at least 8,000 of them die on Day 1 (and that figure makes me wonder if even Lucasfilm got confused and had subtracted 8,000 from 200,000 instead of 192,000 - making 184,000 survivors out of 192,000, with 8,000 presumably on Kamino helping in the running of things across all facilities? Makes sense; I have a strong feeling that they were just winging it and have never been able to _not_ play fast and loose with the numbers) The Clone Army and Droid Army alike are as big as they need to be to fit the plot this month, this year etc. It always changes. 1.2 million Clones (1.192 million clones by Day 2) fighting a literal galactic scale war, statistically, on attrition alone, could _never_ stand a chance. I don't care how good the Clones are, even if each and every one of them are scoring MLG no scope killstreaks numbering in the hundreds. They are going to be taking severe losses. In TCW we see an episode, earlier in the Clone Wars (Malevolence Arc) where there are some _60,000_ injured clones already at a medical space station which General Grievous is trying to destroy without mercy with his then flagship, _The Malevolence_ (real subtle Filoni, I wonder who you want us to think the bad guys are? A mystery, for sure) 1.2 million Clones would potentially do a lot of damage on a few planets but unless there are a _lot_ more clones coming through training to join those 1.2 million, then it seems unlikely they'd be able to maintain strategic control of anywhere near enough planets. They would be so thinly spread as to be fighting losing battles all over the Mid Rim and Core Worlds, let alone the Outer Rim. The Jedi would lead the Republic to many victories, true enough, at the head of elite Clone forces. Yet the attrition rates would still very rapidly humble the Clone Army. Bottom-line, it comes down to an abject failure by Lucas to understand the implications of war on a truly galactic scale. A lot of the Star Wars universe, like other sci-fi/space opera genre universes, have lots of problems with numbers. Like, the numbers of fighting fit units, the number of the actively deployable units ready to go at any time. While highly-focused on Republic power projection and rapid reaction deployments, the GAR would really be in a bad situation. Canonically, the Droids outnumber them _at least_ 100 to 1. Dooku says this himself in the very first episode of TCW S1. The potential for Dooku to be understating things is also there. It's obviously a lot easier for a Droid to be built (and a hell of a lot cheaper) And the CIS have dozens and dozens and dozens of factories churning them out. All the might and wealth of multiple mega-corps and industrialists, working together towards a shared goal. The odds would be practically insurmountable. Even if the Clones were regularly trashing and thrashing the Droids with epic kill ratios and managing to save more Clone lives through using field medics and the kinds of advanced medical facilities seen in TCW in the Malevolence Arc, to bring as many as possible back into combat readiness once healed, the problem is, the KIA attrition rate will still be devastating. Again, the Clone numbers, do not make any sense. Sure, it's a deliberate war of escalation and divisiveness, with both sides being controlled opposition under the same overlord, Darth Sidious/Sheev Palpatine. Yes, Palpatine was very proactively tipping the war in either side's favour as long as it suited his current requirements. He'd never allow the CIS to get too aggressive too soon, and he'd never allow the Republic to get too strong either. He wanted the carnage, to act as catalyst for his Galactic Empire to rise from the ashes of war. He didn't care how many Clones died to achieve this. He didn't care at all. Droid numbers, working on the basis of 1.2 million or so Clones early war (for convenience) would be about 120,000,000 then. 120 million sounds a lot, but for their territorial holdings and the fact nearly 5 million were on Geonosis on one day, I'd argue that they had a _much_ bigger army. The CIS Navy itself outnumbered the Republic Navy 100 to 1, and especially early war, the Republic didn't have enough heavy capital ships. The Venators didn't just show up on Day 1 as the main naval capital ship. The Acclamators were the primary assault ships and warships of the Republic Navy to begin with. Many were lost. However, TCW somewhat retconned things and had Venators showing up rather early on indeed, and the Acclamators were relegated henceforth, beyond that. I think the Droids would have had a lot more than even 800 million Droids (8 million x 100 of course, if we generously add the 5 million additional clones thing) They'd certainly have billions and potentially have trillions. I like to think of the Droids numbering about 3-5 Trillion, with about 300-500 Billion deployed at any given time (with the vast majority in storage/deep-storage, often on board large vessels) That would imply several billion Clones to fight the actually activated and deployed Battle Droids and other droid units. In which case, that starts to make a whole lot more sense. The Kaminoans were using cloning armed forces as their planet's primary means of making a gigantic return on their own immense investment. So, it really does make a lot more sense for the Clone Armies to be about 3-5 billion strong not 3.2-to roughly 8.2 million all told.

[@ThePalaeontologist]

It just makes no sense for their army to be that tiny. I've seen comparisons to the Rebel Alliance being made, and yet, we don't truly know rebel numbers either. The Empire had _trillions_ of operatives and combatant units in many service branches, across over 1.5 million star systems, and 10,000 major imperial stronghold worlds. They were practically unstoppable (until, they weren't) And there you go. The rebels were pretty much done for without the Jedi. The rebels could have lost many, many millions and likely did, all told. All the small skirmishes on thousands of planets add up. Besides which, it's a poor comparison, as they had to get by with hit and run tactics for a long time, just to survive. The Clones were being led into battles with the intent to shield the loyalist worlds and to take back lost planets. There is absolutely no way whatsoever that the GAR could function against serious droid numbers without serious Clone numbers of their own. 1.2 million to begin a galaxy wide war is simply unconvincing. They were always trapped and hemmed in by the figure Lucas penned for 2002's Attack Of The Clones. We know the more accepted figure is 3,000,000-3,200,000, again, forgetting the 5,000,000 additional clones being debated in the Senate. But there you go. It's inconsistent. If they were using the tactics of the rebels, then yes, several million elite Clones _would_ be enough to keep the CIS on it's toes and give them a headache. Nevertheless, it still just, does not make any sense. If Star Wars is to improve, it should just admit where it messed up and fudged the numbers, and get on with outlining the numbers more accurately. The Clones should have _at least_ 500 million troopers and no fewer.

[@mingchoi8369]

It probably wouldn’t have mattered to Palpatine if the Republic lost, because Palpatine would still be in control of the galaxy, no matter which side won in the end or how far the Separatists were allowed to advance into the galaxy.

[@TimesFM4532]

Tbf the empire showed they could have raised a huge conscript army

[@floriantieger491]

Hi

[@mikeriley2475]

The Republic didn't have a real army, it was commissioned by Jedi Master Sypho Dies (I know i butchered that name), the Jedi can see the future.... or the bits that Darth Sidius (Emperor Palpatine) allowed them to see (through the veil of the Darkside).

[@mikeriley2475]

Additionally Darth Sidius hijacked the Clone army, once he learned of its... creation? I'm unclear if he could see the future given that he wasn't a Jedi, for his own use (Order 66). He also created the Droid army so the republic would have an enemy to fight (again, i'm unclear if that was before or after he learned of the clone armies).

[@darklordmalthric3633]

Please cover the Butlerian Jihad

[@Hartzilla2007]

Even if you tossed out the prequel books thats still a mess.

[@darklordmalthric3633]

@@Hartzilla2007 buts it still quite special as it is a unique war in the sci fi franchise

[@inductivegrunt94]

Sidious planned this perfectly. He was always in control no matter what. But the Droid army was still better.

[@dimenzed]

Both the Clone and Sep armies were just pawns in Palpatine's game and they were both expendable as soon as they outlived their usefulness.

[@0valeyes]

Well the one thing that not been taking into account so far is what would you do with the clones when the war is over?