How The Tigers Are Changing Pitching Forever

[@YaowBucketHEAD]

I just realized something watching this very good video. KZbin has replaced ESPN when it comes to sports for me. There's so many good channels that are getting better and better while ESPN has been abysmal for years. Keep up the great work. Good stuff.

[@el.and04]

I've watched literally one movie this entire year. I watch an episode of a tv show a few times a month. But I watch at least one or two yt videos every single day

[@bradbinder5697]

ESPN ruined sports for me if I am being honest. I grew up with the tv on tuned to ESPN for every waking moment. Now I just listen to music instead of being told what an awful person I am 24/7. 😂

[@ctcards2636]

ESPN ! lol. I didnt know anyone watched ESPN anymore ! :-P lol.

[@ZentalJake]

I never had espn

[@rn8923]

​@@el.and041! I'm at 0 lol

[@Snoil]

100% now, this is the most bizarre turnaround ever. And you nailed it. There is nothing in the Tiger's bullpen other than: answer the phone when needed.

[@KevinDonlin]

AJ Hinch is the baseball equivalent of Napoleon, whose presence on the battlefield was said to be worth 40,000 men. Hinch in the dugout is worth 4 starting pitchers. 😅

[@JohnWheaton1]

I don’t get how this is revolutionary in any way, the Rays have been doing this for like 10 years

[@rn8923]

​@@JohnWheaton1it's revolutionary because skubal is the cy young winner this year and we on KZbin. We both clicked this video... So good job to the author.

[@JParkerAdair]

Yes, bizarre. Almost… suspicious. 🤔😉

[@Snoil]

@@JParkerAdair I get it, but Skubal is trash can-free 8>D

[@SamM-gl9zc]

It's funny that you listed teams from 10 years ago with 5 good starting pitchers... and didn't use the *2014 Tigers,* who had Verlander, Sherzer, Fister, Porcello, and Anibal Sanchez... One of the best rotations in history 😂😂

[@user-mn9wc5ru5w]

2014 Fister was with Washington and Verlander was ass

[@troygaunt6773]

Forgot about Price, which I believe was a trade deadline deal or near. Basically, the Tigers had the last 3 AL Cy Young winners on one staff and Porcello, who was either a bull pen guy or a 5th starter, can't remember, but he earned the Cy Young a couple of years later with Boston.

[@EB-bl6cc]

Fister wasn't even with the tigers then

[@Wilytics]

The Tigers pitching staff was good on paper in 2014 but they didn’t perform all that well

[@vsky6880]

what's sad about that as a Tigers fan is that each of those starters won a WS after the Tigers let them go.

[@chopkix]

Tigers run is unbelievable haven’t seen something like this ever

[@joshlewis575]

It is absolutely insane what they've done the last month and a half. Can't believe it, they feel destined

[@rudivanrooijen7611]

While certainly admirable, second half comebacks like this have been done before, '51 Giants, '78 Yankees, '95 Mariners, '06 Twins, '12 A's, etc.

[@kristopherwilson506]

@@rudivanrooijen7611the most-recent team you mentioned was over a decade ago…

[@rudivanrooijen7611]

@@kristopherwilson506 Making statements like: 'unbelievable haven't seen something like this ever' when only superficial knowledge of the history of the game shows otherwise, comes across as silly.........

[@softjones3128]

@@rudivanrooijen7611 never let someone have fun. Keep grinding

[@jamesdouglas1783]

The crazy thing about the TTO stat is that the discrepancy doesn't take into account the fact that good pitchers tend to pitch longer; the pitchers that are getting to pitch a third time through the order are generally the better ones, so if all things were equal the sample would expect to trend downward. The fact that hitting numbers keep going up per TTO is an indication that the advantage for hitters is (probably) actually much greater than the data indicates here, which is why this pitching strategy is so damn effective.

[@Wilytics]

Great point

[@professorclapshot1106]

I disagree; you have to consider which is cause and which is effect. Many a starting pitcher is allowed to finish the 5th inning unless he gets into a bases-loaded jam. Getting hooked because you pitched into a based-loaded jam is something that by definition only happens your last time through the order. So the fact that it IS your last time through the order is dictated by your lower performance.

[@jamesdouglas1783]

@@professorclapshot1106 Yeah I'm going to need to see the data on that because it seems like something you completely made up to support your point.

[@professorclapshot1106]

@@jamesdouglas1783 I mean, managers are more likely to remove a pitcher from the game when they're doing badly than when they're doing well, yes? Hence, doing badly is more likely to come at the end of your outing than at the start. Whether you face 2 batters or 27.

[@QG1234-i5i]

If you want to study a team that just leaves there starters out there for a TTO regardless of who they are look at the Braves. It's been an issue as Snitker is very old school and he will leave a starter in. It's tough to measure though because from every report the players really love him for it, however is it the best decision? How can player satisfaction be measured a long side analytics. Do happier pitchers preform better? Obviously that can't be quantified but it needs to be discussed. I think NLF Rb are a great example of what could happen to starters if players don't kick back on it. To be honest, as a fan, starters make the game more enjoyable but not all 5. I could see a middle ground where teams have 3 "starters" and then go to the other 10 guys splitting innings.

[@floridaman6281]

If you could get a collab with a bigger baseball YTer like Jolly Olive or Foolish, your channel would blow up. Quality is great, and you just need a lucky break. Love the content!

[@itzzraze9811]

If he just keeps uploading, his videos are obviously already showing up in feeds of those of us who watch the bigger channels

[@treysonmcgrady4750]

I thought I was subscribed already but he just kept getting recommended. Fixed that now, the videos are fantastic.

[@SP.007]

When a fan comes up with an idea it's "that's why you're not a manager" When team a team comes up with an idea, "omg, that's revolutionary."

[@bowdenproductions]

If people watch Jolly and Foolish they’ll find this guy, videos are too good.

[@chipjnba403]

7k views in 4 hours at 9k subs is an insane ratio we are witnessing the blowup as we speak.

[@OPALSports1776]

Tigers just clinched the playoffs they had like a 0.4 percent chance to make playoffs at one point 😮

[@kylemayer8486]

.1 actually, they were 500/1 odds to make the playoffs 4 weeks ago.

[@RubensBarrichello.]

@@kylemayer8486 and the dbacks had a 99.1% chance to make the postseason four weeks ago.

[@kylemayer8486]

@@RubensBarrichello. I think God hates Arizona

[@User31129]

Since 1900, only them and the 1973 Mets have come back from 10+ game deficits on August 1st or later.

[@jamescarter7902]

Hinch is a team changing coach, hope everyone realizes that

[@jonborton1295]

Yeah he’s made so many incredible decisions of pitcher batter matchups this season. It’s annoying how much criticism he gets because he’s one of the biggest factors to our current success

[@Markmen-cw8dj]

Wish the Astros would’ve kept him

[@traviscoates6878]

Isn't he a cheater?

[@michaelwolf6424]

@@traviscoates6878 You mean like looking the other way while your players rap stolen signs out on make shift "drums". . .nahhhh. Nothing unethical about that one. Just ask the LA Dodgers.

[@Ray-o5e]

he`s Lucky .

[@benkellman4577]

Thanks for doing a Tigers video! This is such a remarkable run - they are 31-11 since August 11. MLB teams just don't win 73% of games over a stretch that long, especially not one that sold at the deadline and had virtually no offense early in the year.

[@dolphpaperroute6362]

Detroit teams turning it around.. Lions a few years ago, NFC championship game last year (should've won) and this year so far they're looking dangerous! Now here come the Tigers with this insane turnaround, didn't they have like a 0.4% chance of making playoffs at one point during the season? It's honestly been crazy recently.. Just don't get me started on the Pistons cuz they're horrid and feels like it's gonna be that way for quite awhile LMFAOOO.

[@CaptainAngeroo]

See: ‘84 tigers starting 35-5

[@SamAdam87]

a new money ball type movie incoming? instead of the trouble with the curve...it should be "ahead of the curve" ....

[@teacherdavid--eatplaylearn5013]

😂❤ Blessings from Taiwan 🇹🇼 🥳 Hope this "movie " will come out. Jesus loves everyone 😇 🥰

[@foundingfather4266]

@@teacherdavid--eatplaylearn5013God bless you David

[@glennbo923]

I call it Late to the Dance.

[@teacherdavid--eatplaylearn5013]

@@foundingfather4266 Blessings from Taiwan 🇹🇼 🥳 Jesus loves you 😇💕

[@teacherdavid--eatplaylearn5013]

@@glennbo923 interesting 😉

[@charlieharper2880]

After years of suffering being a Tigers fan I can say this feels good.

[@waldorf2007]

Ya it was almost time to ask Jack Morris if he could throw a knuckleball and come back.

[@kevinarthur8488]

I remember texting my friend back in august like dude the Tigers have literally played 3 bullpen games in a row…. Wtf is going on?!!! And then they just kept doing it! I’m like well it’s working so keep it rolling boys! I sent him this video cause we thought it was wild that nobody was really even mentioning it was happening. And the video went above and beyond my expectations! Very thorough and I even learned a lot of new stuff. I’m sold! Subscribed my man! Keep up the great content!

[@jeffreygraham8580]

Love that you keep it concise I hate watching stuff that draws out all the points and uses filler. Keep up the greats work.

[@EM33700]

A 96% chance to make the playoffs? It's 100% now.

[@KrakshotYT]

Yessir!!!!

[@alkakaka1537]

Let’s goooooooooo

[@MrH.09]

0.2% at one point 😳

[@SnowStormVR.]

October ready!!

[@Franciscasieri]

And up 1-0 in the 5 game with Houston

[@TheMaticus06]

Absolute Master Class at managing pitching by A.J. Hinch. Coach of the Year.

[@HonestUAWElectrician]

As a lifelong Tigers fan I'm still blown away we somehow finally built a bullpen. Always was the Achilles heel of the 2006 to 2016 Tiger teams. Well done fellas. And very well done AJ!!!

[@tgrippe93]

2013 was our best chance of winning it all and the bullpen (along with Cabrera’s injury) was the reason why the Red Sox won that series. Bullpen gave up two grand slams in that series.

[@Jrh-rp7np]

2006 World Series if I remember the bats went cold and we had a record amount of errors and costly ones at that ,, particularly from the starting pitchers… Man that should of been that generations 1968,, 1984,, it just felt like a team of destiny,, beating the Yankees in the ALDS,, Magglios walk off ALCS winner,, oh well., it was a fun ride

[@jasong428]

And Kenny Rogers had shit on his hand. God that whole thing was very disappointing...​@@Jrh-rp7np

[@aliwantizu]

Well, as a Tigers fan I would say that this approach has something to do with it, obviously, but I also think it was born out of necessity rather than design. But, it also helps that the Tigers appear to have an absolute wizard as a pitching coach. Last year they had Michael Lorenzen and turned out his best season ever and they traded him at the deadline, this year it was Jack Flaherty. The pitching coach and his staff appear to be working wonders with the pitchers on the active roster. Some of these guys had high ERAs in AAA like over 5 and now they're shutting down other teams at the MLB level. It's crazy, but awesome (if you're a Tigers fan.) Thanks for this interesting analysis! Go Tigers and Go Lions!

[@Shahakazaramesh]

Chris Fetter is absolutely a huge part of this perfect storm. I assume his approach is working hand in hand with the analytics side in what has produced pretty spectacular results.

[@jacobswerbensky662]

As a tigers fan, this year was so much fun and pitching chaos was exciting! I will say, it did end up catching up to us in the ALDS. You could tell guys like Holton and Brieske who were our best bullpen arms were just exhausted after doing so much during seasons end and playoffs. It’s a really fun strategy. But hopefully we can have our young starters step up and stay healthy! That way we can save pitching chaos for the playoffs only. Thank you for this video!!

[@superferg]

Another factor is that it makes it very difficult for the opposing manager to set a lineup. They don't necessarily have any idea who the "follower" or bulk inning pitcher is going to be. If you have any hitters that platoon, who do you start? Put a few lefty hitters in the lineup, and they will throw in a lefty pitcher after the opener. Its a matchup nightmare.

[@paulmayer8654]

Interesting enough, the Tigers lineup is built this way too. They have only a few starters, and everything else is a bunch of interchangeable pieces. The majority of the team just bats in the .225-.250 range. Obviously that’s not a great number, but it creates a lot of unpredictability which is hard to manage against. The only real downgrade that comes is when Kerry Carpenter gets forced out.

[@nirradical]

This is sick. Die hard lifelong Tigers fan who grew up on the OH-MI border obsessed with MLB stats and strategy. Moved away years back and lost touch but this Tigers run is reinvigorating. You're onto something with this channel with all the nerdy stat stuff. Love it 🤟🤟

[@Amershaf]

It's amazing the turnaround by baseball people. 2 years ago, Tampa does this due to similar circumstances and writers throw fits about how it will ruin baseball and the players union won't stand for it because it directly affects starting pitchers contracts. And here we are singing the praise of its genius just a few years later.

[@mrcryptozoic817]

At first, I thought "Oh, sure. Yawn". Then you were both interesting and proved your observation. WELL DONE! And your conclusions make total sense. It shows perfectly that a team can have multiple "starting pitchers" as long as they don't have to beat themselves up trying to be a game-long starter.

[@blakestewart5781]

This is a moneyball level breakthrough for pitching rotations. I don’t think every club will adopt, this benefits lower market teams and we can continue to see this in the future.

[@AHLUser]

The entire Tigers Team Roster combined total less than the annual salary of HOU Relief Ace Josh Hader. WOW... Chris Ilitch is a VERY Happy Owner.

[@AG-fs8yn]

This is the first of your videos I’ve seen (because I know how the comments show up for creators, it’s the one about the Tigers’ pitchers). You do a great job of explaining baseball in a way that fans, both new and old, can understand

[@just_radical]

We arrived at a 5 man rotation not just because but via trial and error of every other starting pitching concept from 1 man to 5 man. In early baseball with about 50 games on the season and 1-2 games a week 1 starter made sense. When the schedule rose to 80 and 100 games you needed 1.5 to 2 guys to accomplish the same amount and then 3-4 guys to fill out a 124 and then 154 game schedule b/c the workable limit of a human arm was around 50 starts a season if the pitcher was expected to complete the game. There were some other factors like shortened mount distance and underhand throwing as well as the dead ball for this period that also contributed to pitchers being able to finish most games but that has more to do with lack of relief pitchers on roster than rest. The second constraint on pitching rotation size was available talent. As evidenced even today by the Tigers not being able to find 5 guys who could pitch 6 innings effectively and adopting the opener model there has always been a huge gap in talent between the top starters and the worst ones. So while people tried going as far as 6 or 7 man rotations several tiems as schedules rose to the point that baseball was played 5-7 games a week, it became difficult to fill those back end of the rotation spots and 5 kind of settled as a workable number. Up until the 80s and 90s even it was not uncommon to try to limit the 5 man as much as time off allowed and not all spots in the 5 man were created equal. If you could ride 2 guys for 40 starts and 3 for the remainder or more commonly 3 guys for 35 starts and 2 for 25 starts (later 30 starts after the jump to 162) that was better than dividing the starts equally 5 ways. What changed was that the league continued to expand, straining the depth pool of arms (a 5 man rotation for all 30 teams requires 150 pitchers, realistically closer to 200 to replace ineffectiveness and injury), the rise of analytics proving that a fresh reliever was better than a tiring starter, free agency making starters increasingly expensive and owners scrambling to find whatever strategies to keep costs on their end down, and whatever mechanical changes that have led to increased injury. This likely led to a moment like the Rays and now being inevitable when enough time had passed that the power of money and analytics outweighed the "old school" front office and managerial types. What you are seeing now start to play out is baseball as a "solved" game. Once optimal strategies have been identified either the rules need to be changed to circumvent them like with the shift or they will completely take over.

[@spyder8986]

Good Analogy

[@fryncyaryorvjink2140]

I think with the emphasis on spin rates and velocity leading to more injuries, we might see the game evolve again though, to a bunch of pitchers throwing 3 innings. If they can go longer, great

[@BuckeyeNut123]

Consider double headers

[@defunctuserchannel]

I stopped following baseball in part because of the "solved" aspect. I'd like to see rule changes to bring the game back to what it was. I'd also like to see games managed in the dugout, not the skybox and no computer aids during the game.

[@mclew1234]

I think its also an unintended consequence of the universal DH. Before you couldn't do this strategy as the drop off between even an average hitting SP & the best hitting reliever was like watching a HS kid trying to hit in the majors. Strategies like this don't tend to become popular when half a league can't do them, it would be a fad for 2 or 3 AL teams that was simply a result of their own circumstances of not having 5 quality SP

[@Nightmare-cr3iw]

Dan Dickerson, our radio personality said it best: "Its Pitching Chaos!"

[@ricksmith-ud8ts]

And now they just swept the Astros in the wild card 💀

[@donwelch6612]

yup. AFTER this video was made.

[@dre4839]

And bout to be one series away from the world series. These tigers pitchers haven’t led up a run in 20 innings it’s crazy

[@Lesevesel]

Channels like this is why NHL HHOFamer head coach Scotty Bowman (who is considered a hockey savant because of his mind-blowing attention to detail and their functions and consequences) loved watching baseball at this level. It feeds the intellect. Just a wonderful channel.

[@jimmynaccaratto344]

I appreciate your take (and you have a new subscriber!), but this pitching rotation was borne of necessity rather than design. That said: I'm all in! Go Tigs

[@Svett357]

just started getting into baseball this june due to my work having discounted tickets and what a time to start watching the tigers

[@Jay_Cannon]

2:31 the 2014 Nationals? You should’ve used 2013 Tigers here, they had a better staff than the 2014 Nationals. Scherzer won the Cy Young, Verlander (2 years removed from winning AL MVP, Pitching Triple Crown), Doug Fister, Rick Porcello (Cy Young winner in 2016) and Anabel Sanchez (28 out perfect game). Come on man, that was the best pitching staff in modern history.

[@johnnyobrian4119]

Didn't we have David price too?

[@Jay_Cannon]

@@johnnyobrian4119 Price came the next year midseason in 2014. He didn’t have a great start with the Tigers, he was 4-4 that year. I believe 9-4 the next year when we traded him. The only difference between 2013 and 2014 is Price was in, Fister was out. I thought Fister was better in 2013 than Price was in 2014. Fister went 14-9 in 2013.

[@boborson5536]

What a team that was, one for the ages.

[@bobo44donemilking51]

No Atlanta had best rotation Maddox ,glavin , smolts ,Avery and some other good pitcher

[@BlueSpiceSpace]

Galaragga had the perfect game

[@OGMichaelC]

Great analysis! I know 4.04 to 4.39 is big, but I expected at least a 1.00 jump in the 3rd TTO. The OPS graph made it much understandable though

[@barrydickins3476]

Not mentioning the 2011-2012 Tigers pitching is criminal. Great video nonetheless!! All hail AJ HINCH!

[@bruceradz]

This is so informative, thank you. My days of getting upset with the coach for pulling pitchers that are doing well are over. There's actually statistics to back it up. Awesome. Thanks again

[@kiefdemon1979]

This is a weird video for me because you're essentially talking about what the Rays did in 2023 for most of the season. The Madea approach was done by the Red Sox for Nick Pivetta as well. I would agree that the Tigers did figured out this opener stuff better than the Rays.

[@jamescoay]

The rays have been doing this for a while

[@defunctuserchannel]

​@@jamescoay Yes, 2018 was the first year the Rays implemented this strategy. I think they call the first pitcher the "opening pitcher" instead of the starter.

[@avoerman89]

The Brewers and Rays used openers and never let starters through the 3rd time back in 2018 and it was even more extreme in 2018 when rosters were still massive in September. The Brewers plan their whole org around this strategy; the Tigers basically stumbled into it.

[@johnmccabe4918]

Im not subscribed because you’re acting like the rays didnt do this back in like 2018..

[@SWalkerTTU]

*Maeda approach The Madea approach would be to throw hard at the batter and if they came up to the mound like Robin Ventura she’d get better shots in than Nolan Ryan, and God help you if you hit a home run off her, because the next time up you would be getting drilled.

[@djclements8177]

Thank you for talking about this years tiger team, what they are doing is remarkable and if they make a deep run, they will be team people will talk about for a long time afterwards, dont sleep on the Gritty Kitties, Go Tigers

[@cornerstonepc6276]

Cleveland fan here. Great watch.

[@snapperjackson]

Excellent analysis. Super interesting. Love all the stats. My first time watching one of your vids and I will definitely be watching more.

[@AHLUser]

Hinch gets credit for being a super good manager..!! Tigers win Game 2 vs HOU and upset the 7 time ALDS champs in 2 games... & 7 pitchers combined for a 2 hitter and no pitcher had more than 2 innings..!! 6 pitchers went 1.0 to 1.2 innings... 1 pitcher went 0.1, getting just 1 out. AND, this is 'By Design'...!! Since Aug. 11, 11 different Starting Pitchers..!! Also, the entire Tigers roster makes less money than HOU Relief Ace, Josh Hader..!! Hinch should get 'Manager of the Year'..!!

[@colkoch]

This was a great breakdown of what the Tigers are doing. But it's not just pitching. The Tigers also only use four full time hitters and then a host of super utility guys who are also matched against the pitching. They also can come in at any time. Andy Ibanez and Matt Vierling are the prime examples. What I love about this is it gives small market teams a chance to compete against the NY's, LA's and Chicago's of the baseball world. It 's why Cleveland, KC, Milwaukee, and Detroit have made the playoffs.

[@flagtheoffense]

Detroit is closer to the first group than the second one ... stop it.

[@stevenglowacki8576]

Detroit is a small market if you only count the city itself. But it's a pretty big media market overall counting all of SE MI plus Windsor. There's a team for each of the 4 major professional leagues, which just isn't true for most cities outside the absolute largest ones. There are 12 markets that have at least one team each, and the largest 2 have about 2 each with a scattering of a 5th team in a couple makets, so that's only like a third of the teams in the leagues playing in such a market.

[@AnthonyfromtheD]

If we had this kind of bullpen back in the day with miggy and fielder.. JV, Scherzer... we would be champions!!

[@sah4128]

I’m a Pirates fan, and me and my friends have been talking for weeks now about how the Tigers could do this and the Pirates just fell off the face of the earth again…. The #1 answer we came up with: AJ Hinch vs Derek Shelton. Congrats Tigers

[@jamesreed2475]

I've noticed this and this is the first article I've seen on this. It occurred to me early on that this might change how teams assemble pitching staffs and by extension the entire way baseball rosters are constructed. Now teams might have 2 (or maybe 3) starting pitchers and mix and match relievers who pitch 2-4 innings in their appearances. And they will constitute most of the staff with possibly those 2-3 starters and a closer and possible set up man. This allows you to play the match up game and gives much more flexibility. Future Tigers will have Skubal and Jobe and we'll see if Olson or Mize can show enough to grab a 3rd spot. I still can't tell if this was a happy accident or a or Tigers did this on purpose given the challenges with injuries they faced? Either way this seems like we're on the frontier of something that will change the sport of baseball.

[@MarthaTorres-gu7vd]

High contracts for pitchers were eventually going to do that anyways.

[@donosterlingheightsmi1696]

Let's Stunn the Baseball World and bring home a World Series Championship...It's been since 1984..I can still see Larry Herndon catch the last out . Remember Kirk Gibson hit a blast off Goose Gossage...ALong time ago I was just 13 years old ... 31-11 is almost 35-5 only to end a regular season instead of starting the season ...Proud of the Tigers but let's Finish this more work to do...LETS GO "DETROIT VS EVERYBODY"

[@fishah37]

Not happening but a man can dream right

[@donosterlingheightsmi1696]

@fishah37 ITS called faith..MLB PLAYOFFS ARE ABOUT WHO IS PLAYING THE BEST AT THE TIME PLAYOFFS START .. TEXAS RANGERS WERE NOT EVEN CLOSE TO BEING THE BEST TEAM AND THEY WON LAST YEAR..THE BEST TEAMS SIT DOWN FOR A WEEK IT PUTS THEM BEHIND THE 8 BALL ..JUST WATCH AND ENJOY

[@neorock6135]

*4:30** Graph:* 😮 The absolute irony is that the team thats on the other end of that graph, & relied on their starting pitching *the most,* the NY Mets, similarly were counted out of the playoffs at 11 games under .500, at one point but are now tied for the 2nd wildcard spot.

[@ITzMLKsKiLLa]

I agree that a collab with a bigger youtuber would be nice to your algorithm, this is an excellent channel. I hope someone picks this up you’re good at this

[@Christoph5782]

I was wondering when an MLB team would finally experiment with something other than just running a SP for the first 5-6 innings and relieving them to close the game every game. I would love to see the strategic elements of this become to the level of the F1 pit strategies or something of that nature! Though knowing how much MLB hates strategy, they will ban this just like they did the shift. Theyd also ban Cover 2 if they controlled the NFLs rules

[@TheFamousMockingbird]

the rays did a opener liek 5 or 4 years ago. they would throw a reliver in the first inning to go through the hardest part of the line up so so the pitcher who wa beter could go deeper into the game

[@joshhicks3620]

There is already rumors that MLB is going to make it mandatory for the starter to throw 6 innings with exception to injuries (which I think is ridiculous).

[@dreigivetimpoolmassivewedg7646]

The elimination of extreme shifting has been a very, very good thing for baseball and I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise. And teams use the typical format with attacking games pitching wise because it's by far the best strategy for a 162 game season if you have 5 capable starters. For instance Tarik Skubal is on the Tigers; he's easily their best player and him going 7 innings gives them a much, much, much better chance of winning than any other formula they use.

[@cdjhyoung]

@@dreigivetimpoolmassivewedg7646 I question if your statement, if compared to Skubal's actual performance stats in the 4,5, and sixth inning would hold true. Baseball hates change. And the rules committee will do what ever it takes to limit this practice, which is a shame. I hated when MLB banned the shift, and twisted using fielders to pitch in no-win game situations. For one, if MLB was actually concerned with the quality of play when a game got out of hand, implement a mercy rule and stop the game and the stats padding instead of making a rule that limits how the club uses its bull pen. As for the shift, teaching a dead pull hitter how to bunt would have been the better answer to the shift. Dribbling the ball to third to get a hit and embarrassing the defensive team would end the shift just as fast as any rule change.

[@dreigivetimpoolmassivewedg7646]

@@cdjhyoung Innings 4-6 Skubal's this year has a 2.4 ERA 110 Ks .570 ops against and a 0.9 WHIP in 87 Inning 7 he had a 4.7 ERA but with peripherals still better than 95% of relievers out there. And even if he was average those middle to late innings, accumulating innings is almost as important as run prevention over a full season. No staff could every survive successfully long term without having at least 3 or 4 guys who eat innings each year.

[@MarstonManhunter]

Great topic, great video. I got here directly after watching Jason Benetti calls from this year lol

[@OliverBlench]

I think that teams will shift to having two or three starters, with the other starts being with openers and followers. Unless they are in a situation where they do have an incredibly strong rotation, or where they have no strong starters, but I suspect what will be most common will be what i mentioned in descending order

[@TwoFoxGibbon]

Good info. Good video. Seems like teams may begin to start signing pitchers based on how well they pitch based on the next year's schedule (or likely schedule) in order to deliver the best possible matchups the most amount of times. You don't need Kershaw for example if you have 4 guys that are lights out the first time through an order. It also changes the complexity of trade deadline once you have a likely pool of teams making it in. Find the pitchers best suited for those exact teams. Even utilize the minor clubs to house them until needed. Interesting stuff.

[@GeraldM_inNC]

Haven't the Rays been doing this for years?

[@SteefPip]

Rays definitely used the opener to their advantage but I dont think they were doing the small relief pitchers strung together the way Detroit is. At least not to the degree of only having 2 traditional starting pitchers.

[@robe9075]

Yes but the tigers did it with absolute no name relievers.. these guys had like 4.50-5.50 ERA in the minors and then came up to the league and pitched at an elite level.. plus I think that they’ve distributed innings pitched more evenly than the rays did

[@bd001217]

I thought the same thing, this is nothing new, but If you watch the whole video, he does credit the Rays with starting this trend back around 2018.

[@Sportsloverandrew]

I think the Tigers are just exploiting that tactic to an extreme degree. 1 legit starting pitcher then the next four games it's each pitcher gets about 2-3 innings.

[@SvanMagic]

​​@@robe9075The Rays just made Uceta, a guy who got cut by three teams last year, into their best reliever. The Rays also traded two starters this season and their best reliever at the time of the trade deadline, while losing their closer. And they still are on the verge of making .500 in the hardest division with one of the worst offenses in recent history.

[@bryanwinchell2485]

This was my first time watching your channel and this is an EXCELLENT breakdown of what's going on (so I subscribed). I'm not sure if this is a good trend for fans of the game, but it's always interesting to watch the sport evolve. One thought I had is it makes me wonder if managers might start putting a few of their better hitters lower in the lineup to punch a hole in the opener concept. At least, that's something I'd consider!

[@sir_Yosemite]

i fr looked down and was so confused that this channel wasnt bigger which i kniw people say but i was genuinely shocked to see that as this was a very good video on a very very good subject also very well done in terms of the information and visuals provided

[@reedr7142]

This style of clay was a necessity for us as kids, when we played RBI baseball on Nintendo. The way the game was built, even your best pitchers would not be able to throw the way they could at the beginning of the game (in some cases as early as 3-4 innings). It was common for us to use all four pictures available to us in a single game, so that we had fresh arms throwing to every batter. Great game, BTW 🙂

[@flash521]

They use the 5 starting pitcher rotation due to providing REST for starting pitchers

[@chrisk19791]

Exactly

[@Werdnasemajjamesandrew]

@@chrisk19791rest or kenta maeda sucks and cant start jack flaherty was traded and two of the five just came back from injury and arent pitching a full load

[@cuseyeti_one8three]

Why 5?

[@chrisk19791]

@@cuseyeti_one8three because a starter should have 4 days' rest in order to be ready to start another game. Hence "starting rotation".

[@cuseyeti_one8three]

@@chrisk19791 why 4 days? How is that not arbitrary? Why not 5 days? What if an individual pitcher’s makeup allows him to be ready to start after just 3 days? You’re using a logical fallacy known as begging the question here. Basically just using the assumption to prove itself. 5 man rotations are not an irrefutable law of nature, they’re a human-made construct. Why? What’s special about 5?

[@pdbronco]

Oh for the days of 1968 when the Tigers starters usually pitched complete games (and Denny McLain won 31 games). Mickey Lolich pitched three complete games in the 1968 World Series (winning all three).

[@davids9520]

The Tigers wanted to have the normal five starting pitchers. Injuries to the pitchers made that impossible. Next season the Tigers hope to have five healthy starters.

[@michaelwicklund]

Your right but it will still be used just our root pitchers won’t have to worry about someone pitching before them. Skubal doesn’t have openers because he is Skubal while Huerter does.

[@sonicsmedia5203]

Thanks man. This info is useful for betting in the right spots. I appreciate the insights! They helped me make about $50 on the wildcard opener. The Tigers are going crazy. The Astros couldn't keep up. I was wondering why the Tigers were doing so great lately. Thanks for sharing. I will follow your videos.

[@humblelad]

It helps when your main starter is going to win the Cy Young. I would slow down on saying starters will phase out entirely, but maybe it will lean on a few cornerstone guys.

[@michaelwolf6424]

Not really. A LOT of pitchers who are now big leaguers were once college starters. Take the case of Alex Faedo. He was the ace on the Univ of Fla's championship team in 2017. Drafted high by the Tigers. Naturally, he thought of himself as a potential starter but the circumstances so far have shifted him to the bullpen. He may or may not like his new role but. . .he IS in the Show. Pitching. Contibuting. And, as this presenter has stated, his career just might be prolonged by not having to overpitch as a starter. Look what has happened to Casey Mize. The SEC pitcher of the year at Auburn. Again, drafted high and still considered ace material but don't be surprised if he too ends up relieving at some point. It's the way the game is playing out. Potential injuries, big time salaries, small markets and ineffective outings have doomed the starting pitcher. Back when I started following baseball (I'm old), starting pitchers ruled. Billy Martin's four starters in '79'-'80 all were workhorses. Martin burned them out by leaving them in far too long. The Baltimore Orioles used to feature strong starting rotations with Jim Palmer, Mike Cuellar, Pat Dobson and Dave McAnally. All good. Those days are gone forever. Nothing like Nolan Ryan, a starter all his 27 years in the Bigs. Yeah, I miss them too but it's reality.

[@humblelad]

@@michaelwolf6424 ok but Tarik Skubal exists is my point

[@TheFamousMockingbird]

emmanuel classe is gonna win the cy young or at least he should

[@michaelwicklund]

@@TheFamousMockingbirdabsolutely not.

[@michaelwicklund]

Top end rotation pitchers who are reliable enough to pitch well consistently will stay the other pitchers will phase out

[@dylen3553]

Great content & fantastic quality! Just subbed bro :)

[@virgilgreen3108]

Love my Tigers, but, sorely miss the days when wins & complete games mattered.

[@michaelwolf6424]

Never going to see another Mickey Lolich or Denny McClain on the hill again. As the presenter here stated, injuries, money and flat out practicality have literally changed the nature of the sport.

[@mattwhite4302]

@@michaelwolf6424 The thing that gets me is..a lot of this stuff is 'let's prevent injuries'...and..injuries are worse than they've ever been. It's become basically a question of how soon and when the newest good pitcher goes out for a year , then if.. It's not money or injuries that have changed the nature of the sport, it's the use of analytics , and search for efficiency..the biggest bang for your buck, so to speak that has changed it. Look at a thing like stolen bases. Why did that change? Primarily because teams starting catching on to the fact that if you weren't successful a certain amount of the time, it was a detriment ..so you saw less of it. And the presenter in no way proved a case for injuries or money changing the sport. The entire argument was based on the well known "three times through the lineup spells disaster statistically" thing. THAT mentality it more driving the changes to pitching than the other things. Add in the greater prevalence of in depth scouting of the batters and pitchers, down to the angle of their swing on the first full moon of the season..and there it is.

[@patrichildebrand2074]

Montero had one

[@kibitznec700]

In a zillion years

[@AntonyYTube]

Not the tigers fault. Pitchers today are taught to throw as hard as they can. 95 mph is average today when 10 years ago it was elite. So now almost every starting pitcher ends up on the IL for weeks or even months and can barely go past 6 innings per start. And they still demand 20 mil a year even for just veteran experience (think E Rod). No team besides the LA Dollars can afford a 3 ace rotation anymore

[@jdaily2293]

Hope you blow up man these videos are great. I’m sure you will, keep putting this quality out the algorithm will love you.

[@coyote5.02]

MLB will prevent this from happening by changing the rules. but it won’t happen until average runs per games drastically goes down and the offensive part of the game is dramatically effected negatively.

[@fr2ncm9]

I believe starting next year, pitchers are going to have to pitch 5 innings.

[@ryandouglas8382]

They already announced the rule change for next year. Unless a startinh pitcher has thrown 85 pitches or more, or allowed 4 runs or more he must throw 5 innings

[@FrodohTBaggins]

And this is a great rule, what Detroit is doing shouldn’t be allowed, maybe I’m just old-school but a starting pitcher should always go a minimum of six innings and if they get shelled, so be it makes the game more entertaining

[@OliverStabile]

@@fr2ncm9they won’t,

[@scratchntax722]

@@FrodohTBagginsshouldn’t be allowed? Adapt then

[@IntraVortex]

Great video! Unusual to have such a unique analysis on this or any platform. And, I agree with you. This very year I was arguing to trade two Mariner starting pitchers for Vlad Guerrero. Few if any liked the idea. He hit something like .360 after the break. The Mariners lost so many one run games during the same time frame it was just sad. But the perceptive are rarely acknowledged. Only the silly loud.

[@xaiverbeaudin7171]

Not a 1% chance... a .2% chance and we win tonight were in.

[@joshlewis575]

.2 to 100% absolutely unbelievable. What a fun end to the summer

[@JamieSmith-fz2mz]

@@joshlewis575 It extends summer. Because if they're eliminated in August, we're turning all of our attention to football early. (And I can't believe I'm able to say that about the Lions now.)

[@Kbaby521]

Congrats

[@connorjordan3551]

We?

[@adammiller9179]

​@@connorjordan3551 Do you not know what "we" means?

[@TomMarvan]

An intriguing discussion. 11:00 I think starting pitchers were previously valuable, but the 20 second rule and the DH rule now in the NL means different attributes have come to the fore. It's tough to grind 8 innings when you have only 20 seconds (give or take) between AB's. Higher ERA's seem to follow. And now a roster can contain more followers or middle relief pitchers whose batting ability is negligible. I wonder if this new approach will hurt teams in extra innings or long, post-season series.

[@ChairmanMeow1]

I mean the Rays made this work over practically two entire seasons. If you have a good manager, it can work.

[@KrustysFather]

They've been doing this since 2021 and I was always surprised at how effective bullpen games were, seeing the numbers behind the strategy makes a lot of sense.

[@paraquepossamos]

The problem is not the Manager, or the Pitchers, is the MLB. The MLB controls everything and if they see any risk of losing money, this great idea will not last. Money is King for MLB. I would like (as an Astros fan) to have every game - Valdez, (1-3) Brown (4-6), Kiukutchi (7-8) Hader (9) / Next Day Verlander (1-2), Garcia (3-5), Presly (6), Abreu (7), Hader (9) and so on.. It is a great idea...but MLB would kill it because of the PItching starters "culture" and the money that can generate for both sides.... If you increase the Pay/Per/Inning that in itself would be enough for players reject this new trend. Unfortunately.

[@laartwork]

Wait you make it seem like a business. Real fans want to see great match-ups more than once a game. Shohei vs Skenes only once? Fuck that

[@AM93000]

Astros are cheaters, and you're proud to be an Astros fan? That's embarrassing

[@doublestrokeroll]

Fascinating video. I see baseball is pondering a "minimum" innings rule for starters. Not sure how I feel about that. I like that baseball mostly evolves naturally and then rules are put into place after a problem becomes to big. Like the recent rules to speed up the game. They're pretty great I think. The evolution of using multiple pitchers was natural. The side effect of slowing the game down to boredom levels necessitated the changes. I'd kind of like to see how baseball would look with a "3 pitcher" game type scenario before they go putting that rule in. It would be cool if a team decided to go that route completely, as soon as next season.

[@ryanbranch1430]

We'll see if the League itself puts arbitrary rules in place to prevent the game from evolving...

[@Brocuzgodlocdunfamdogson]

I think the 5 inning double-hook DH is fair. That’s where if you pull your starter before 5 innings of work, your DH also gets pulled. But that only addresses the AL, not sure what they could do in the NL aside from an inning/run quota.

[@ryanbranch1430]

@@Brocuzgodlocdunfamdogson the amount of arbitrary structures they put in place to prevent fielders from Moving A Bit Over tells me they would be willing to adjust some things in weird ways to preserve the formality of The Starter

[@SirTylerGolf]

​@@Brocuzgodlocdunfamdogsonthe NL has the DH now

[@kylemayer8486]

There were 44,000 fans at the game yesterday, the MLB won't like that.

[@dreigivetimpoolmassivewedg7646]

These non nuanced comments are why some people get frustrated with certain stat nerds. The Tigers strategy(which has been used before) can be effective for short stretches. It's not anywhere near sustainable over multiple years with 40 man rosters, and the obvious best case scenario being a team having 5 quality starting pitchers.

[@morganburt2565]

great explainer, especially as someone who doesn’t know baseball but is excited for the tigers!

[@larrydanadavid2435]

The Tigers are 37-26 in one run games or games that went into extra innings. Hinch’s penchant for not bunting the ghost runner over to manufacture a sac fly run cost the Tigers at least 8-10 wins this year. AJ received a lot of help from Chris Fetter and Scott Harris.

[@timhaigh2484]

I wondered about this strategy for a long time. I appreciate your insightful video on the topic.

[@thatsg5314]

In the flaherty deal tigers traded for 1 prospect and our current starting SS Trey Sweeney

[@tmanqz]

And watch them sign Flaherty on the cheap again. haha... heard he isn't doing well, Dodgers not managing his back issues in LA.

[@michaelwicklund]

@@tmanqznot bad but he is pitching 3.8 era since leaving and every stats has gone up whip, walks, the only stat going down is the strike out percentage and that’s the one stat you don’t want them to drop in.

[@willblake72]

Sweeney was in AAA, not called up until mid Aug, that makes him a prospect. Still a prospect now, even on the MLB club, until meeting service time/AB thresholds.

[@kylesalonek9461]

Incredible analysis. Love it!

[@Chance_2018]

Tarik Skubal, Jackson Jobe, Casey Mize could be a nasty three

[@rrundle4]

Bro said Casey mize

[@nunyabizzy08]

put reese olson instead of mize, that would be considered better

[@Chance_2018]

@@nunyabizzy08 I just think Casey Mize has better potential

[@JEFFERYBLACKSTON]

not gonna lie when someone says, please like and subscribe I almost never subscribe, but when they drop the percentage of people that watch the videos that shit hits my heart

[@robertcampbell8070]

Couple things I'd make an argument on. You'd still like to have one "ace" starter. Without Skubal, the Tigers wouldn't be near the playoffs. And Second, that Nationals rotation wasn't nearly as good even on paper as the 2012 Tigers rotation of Verlander (HOF), Scherzer (HOF), Doug Fister, Rick Porcello, and Anibal Sanchez. Thats 7 Cy Young's on one team, and frankly just far better players.

[@edbetsworth2772]

Years ago, I can’t remember the manager (Pittsburgh), talked about doing this with his pitching staff. Rotate pitchers every 2 innings so batters couldn’t get into a rhythm. But he didn’t do it because he was afraid of the blow back, since it is tradition to have a 5 man rotation.

[@spartaninvirginia]

GO TIGERS!

[@hockeyislife67]

Whats crazy is I ran this strat in MLB2K like 15 years ago. You run 2 great Starting pitchers and a boatload of great relievers cause relievers were way cheaper. Im sure other people did this also. Just like in basketball where people never took long jumpers and instead just layups and 3s and now thats basically what NBA teams do. Video game strats usually end up being good because when playing games you get to run so many more simulations, you can play 5-6 seasons worth of games in a year.

[@wrathofkaneeighty8]

GO TIGERS

[@mclew1234]

An underrated reason for this change is the universal DH. Its no surprise that all the teams that did this 1st were all AL teams, in the past you couldn't do opener strategy as you would need arms to replace the PH you sent up late in the game in the P spot in the order. And even if you did let SP hit, while being bad they were generally Mendoza line hitters, relivers were almost free outs & the majority of the time teams would even send them up there to just stand in the box & hope the other guy throws 4 balls.

[@AnthonyfromtheD]

3:27 JUST CRAZY.. lol

[@pocklecod]

Another key piece that's changing is having a role for certain players just because of a stat. The five inning rule for a starter to get a win plus the save rule has driven a lot of players to want a specific role to rack up those stats. If players are willing to buy in to the idea that team wins matter more than largely useless stats like wins and saves then these flexible approaches become much more possible.

[@fr2ncm9]

I don't think this will last. MLB is already talking about a minimum innings scheme. I think that removing starters cheapens the product.

[@whysoserious8666]

The players union can push back if it an be shown that this system reduces injuries.

[@Wilytics]

I doubt that the minimum innings will ever happen. In my opinion, letting the game go this route (which is the route that it is currently on) will accomplish the main goal of that rule: limiting starting pitcher injuries.

[@scratchntax722]

Minimum innings is stupid af

[@jefjon423]

How exactly does it cheapen the product?

[@mattwhite4302]

@@Wilytics I don't really think we have any evidence of that. It's one of those things that we won't know until it's done for real. And the usage of starting pitching has run parallel with a huge increase in pitching injuries to both starters and relievers..So..there's something besides 'innings pitched' behind this. Look at a guy like Jacob DeGrom, who was basically a 6 inning pitcher for his entire career. Multiple injuries. Compare that a guy like Max Scherzer who remained healthy for the majority of his career. Or, to flip it even more, a guy like Sandy Alcantara who was the innings eating phenom the game sees less of..and HE got injured too. One huge thing is pitchers are trying go harder ,as well as getting funky movement and spin rates on the ball, all the time..and destroying their arms in the process..as well as the fact that by the time any of these guys get to the majors, they've put so much travel on their arms from high school to college to the minors ..It's like meeting someone who is 30 but looks like they're 40 and have been through a major war.

[@DorianPaige00]

Chuck Tanner was going to do this with the Pirates in the mid 80's and get an additional gain with a pinch hitter in the 9 spot. It also breaks up oppositional platoon right-left match-up strategy.

[@fr2ncm9]

Younger people should try watching games from the 70's and 80's on KZbin. The game was much more exciting in my opinion.

[@TheFamousMockingbird]

they should also try analyzing games and teams without resorting to statistics. there is never any attention brought to "styles" certain teams can have. are the a small ball good baserunning team. a pitching oriented team, a power team etfc

[@paulmcmillen5925]

However, there will be discussions among the MLB regulators this offseason about mandatory innings for the starting pitching. This has to do with the continuing focus of speeding up the game. A proposal has been made that the starting pitcher throws at least six innings and they couldn't be removed from a game unless they have given up a certain number of runs or became injured. As much as I like this newer approach of using a reliever to start a game, there are a lot of purist that want to see opening pitchers go seven innings or more, as it was back in the day. Good video!

[@bobbygetsbanned6049]

It doesn't make sense to get rid of starting pitchers, it's a waste of talent to have guys who can consistently give you quality starts be reduced to 2-3 innings. This is a good way to use average arms to maximize their value, but it doesn't make any sense to use potential HOF starters this way.

[@nmc5657]

the tigers don't have many guys "who can consistently give you quality starts." maybe it's a good move to become less reliant on potential HOF starters and their high salaries, etc.

[@nacoran]

He specifically said that you don't need to do it with guys like Cole. If you have elite starters you run them out there, but you use openers for games where you don't have an elite starter to pitch. That could be anywhere from 0 to 5 spots in your rotation, depending on your staff.

[@bobbygetsbanned6049]

@@nacoran Yeah but he also said starting pitchers might go away altogether.

[@bobbygetsbanned6049]

@@nmc5657 Maybe but those guys will always exist, so not using them would be a waste of talent.

[@jackmacleod81]

Hinch also gets extremely advantageous matchups. With his hitters too, completely platooning his starting lineup then using all of his bench to pinch hit and get the right matchup. He can pull in a lefty or a righty at any time

[@nolanbaily4834]

When Kenta was at the dodgers, he was great when he split games with Ryu. I remember more than a few games that was just those 2 guys who did all 9 innings. It was atypical

[@swolf2004]

NCAA teams have been doing this for a long time. Partially, this is a scholarship limit issue (you can't give a scholarship to your entire roster or even half of it). Some of this is the way they build the schedule (3 game weekend series Friday through Sunday, 1 or 2 midweek games). Usually, there is one or two starter quality pitchers on a team. The #1 goes on Friday, the #2 on Saturday, everything else is a "piece it together/ride the hot hand" strategy

[@mikedelgado5144]

Excellent information. I was wondering how the Tigers turned round the season. Thank you for your research.

[@calebgiametta8326]

This was well thought out and insightful. Earned a sub 👍🏼

[@geordiejones5618]

Grew up watching the Red Sox and what I noticed most is that starting pitchers can be absolute prima donas. They demand top money but they rarely give you more than a couple great seasons, and one pitcher never makes enough of a difference to a winning team to push you over the edge into contention. One day in either the MLB or NFL or maybe one of the European leagues, you'll see a team with a major title without a true superstar by playing nontraditional smart and safe ball.

[@anthonygordon4699]

Michigan native. I also grabbed the city connect riley greene in june or july. Liked and subscribed. Go tigers go.

[@stevenmorrissey6174]

It’s been a crazy ride. Kinda magic, bunch mid minor league relievers lit it up for us. Shoutout AJ Hinch for his job.

[@mm9778]

You did Maeda dirty In this video. And as a Tigers fan, I don’t blame you.