HOW THEY WORK-PROCHARGER VS TURBO (WHAT WORKS BEST?)

IS A TURBO BETTER THAN A PROCHARGER? MORE BOOST OR HP? CHECK OUT THIS COMPARISON BETWEEN THE TWO FORMS OF FORCED INDUCTION WHERE I COVER NOT ONLY HORSEPOWER, TORQUE AND BOOST PRODUCTION CHARACTERISTICS OF THE TWO (FULL DYNO GRAPHS), BUT THROW IN TRACTION AS WELL. WHAT GOOD IS POWER IF YOU CAN'T PUT IT DOWN? DOES A BLOWER HAVE IMMEDIATE BOOST? IS THERE TURBO LAG? HOW DO THE TWO SYSTEM COMPARE FOR STREET USE? FOR TRACK USE? WHICH ONE WOULD YOU CHOOSE?

[@bradysmith3024]

Pro chargers seems like the obvious choice for a street build. Great video.

[@iamLexxKelsey]

Now I see why no prep cars would rather run pro charger

[@JosephNnbs]

You really do always post what’s going on in my brain. Thank you

[@eb5151]

I love these comparisons with detailed explanations. I have a book you wrote about building sbf motors with supercharger/combos " dyno proven 5.0 " from 2000. Still read through it when I'm in the garage!!

[@dsm4959]

Great stuff Richard. I think a lot of guys would be interested in seeing a comparison between a Whipple and ProCharger on a 6.2L. Keep the Vids coming!

[@Hughie302]

As someone who is new to all of this and trying to learn as I go I found this to be an awesome video so I hit the subscribe button. Thanks for the content.

[@richardholdener1727]

welcome aboard

[@CapnBubbaa]

Thanks for your great explaination of Turbo vs Procharger. and the "nuts& bolts" of them

[@richardholdener1727]

Glad to help

[@mxguy2438]

In the drag racing world, the shape of the power curve means almost nothing with a torque converter that keeps the motor in a 500-1000 rpm range for the entire run.

[@vnv8dude]

Yep which is why hp is king on the strip

[@justinward5928]

why does it keep the rpm so low if theres more power to be had up higher

[@mxguy2438]

@@justinward5928 if I understand your question correctly, you're thinking of stock style torque converters that couple around 1500-2000 rpm. Performance/racing torque converters will move that up significantly. In a drag car, the conveyor will couple at near peak power at full throttle i.e. 5k+ rpm. This is too much of a compromise though for part throttle driving where the car will feel unresponsive and sluggish at low throttle because the engine will need more throttle input and more rpm to create the same change in vehicle speed.

[@davidcarpenter9232]

Good 1...

[@iamLexxKelsey]

Wrong....unless u have no traction issues most drag cars are over powered these days it's more hp management going on these days

[@unclesquirrel6951]

Personally I blame squirrels

[@yoboijd4175]

Me too unclearsquirrel, me too

[@warrenlucier5796]

Yeah I see the supercharger giving a linear power curve and the turbo just overwhelms the chassis; sometimes less is more.

[@joeyjojojr.shabadoo915]

Gearing, Transmission choice and proper setup can go a long way to level the playing field and even help the Supercharger to shine. Let's say for instance that 2 cars weigh the same, same rear tire, one is Procharger and the other is Turbo charged. In this example, the Turbo car runs a 4.11:1 with a Powerglide and perhaps 3500 stall. The Procharger car needs only run something like 4.56:1 and a Turbo400 with 4000 stall to make the most of it's powerband. This will make sense to those that understand each setup. These values mean nothing......ONLY WHEN COMPARED TO EACH OTHER FOR REFERENCE. Just an off-the-cuff example. Be nice. ;)

[@travisabrahamson5092]

4.11s with turbo?? I always run "highway gears".. Like 3.42 to 2.73 on my turbo cars. It seems to work better for me anyway. 👍

[@jedwards100able]

​​@travisabrahamson5092 with 29" tall tire drops to 3.80 gear with Power Glide gear ratio so his comment makes sense in eighth mile. Tells me you don't know anything about gear ratios in transmission, stall speeds, & drag racing vs street car.

[@daviedood2503]

It all depends on where you're racing. Are u racing on the highway? Or are u racing on winding S shaped roads? Lots of left and right turns etc. One setup will prevail over another.

[@kevinwest3689]

WOW! Thanks Richard, if you've ever hurd the term All Hat No Cattle. Every time I watch one your videos I feel like I went to the stockyards & got another cow, Now if I only had the budget to take advantage of it. One of these days 🤞

[@gixxer750axld]

best explanation this far! Thanks man.

[@michaelprice3912]

I agree with the tour problem I have a Focus RS turbo charged factory. I also have a for a Mustang with Paxton Nove 2000. I love the traction of this centrifugal supercharger, much better turbos kick in 10 to yank the car around Paxton is smooth and steady and nice power control

[@jasonbyassee7541]

I’ve only had one boosted car, and that was an ‘86 svo. I knew the dealer back then and he had the wastegate adjusted to 18 psi. That was one quick fox body. In stock trim it has basically the same hp rating as the GT, but only 240 torque. The 5.5 extra lbs of boost made a huge difference. That torque would really set ya back in the seat.

[@sethhughes2163]

You hit it on the head my friend! It would have made sense only to those who are NOT looking at the big numbers! KUDO'S again!

[@billygullifa3245]

Great job Richard

[@fullmetalmars8571]

Appreciate the breakdown

[@timothybayliss6680]

That 21psi boost curve is nuts for analog control. That's also pretty good response for two pretty big turbos on a pretty small engine.

[@richardholdener1727]

the big bang motors were a stroke of luck

[@Kincentc]

A dyno's artificial load will make it look that way. On the street, the rpm climbs much faster, and the procharger will follow the rpm, when the turbo has a *small* amount of lag. Don't get fooled

[@timothybayliss6680]

@@Kincentc ya, the procharger does basically the same thing on the dyno as on the track. Really high end tuning shops have started.using hub dynos where they can program in the wheel speed against time and take cars from staging to the big end. It lets guys set up things like a transbrake and boost v speed and boost v gear. On the street once those turbos light i dont think the procharger would touch it. The advantage is too big and these turbos were selected to limit low end boost.

[@brianhoffman5414]

@@timothybayliss6680 I think they would too especially on that setup

[@sethhughes2163]

Brother I feel your pains... lol ! The old adage applies " you can't please all of the people ~ all of the time... lol. KUDO'S for bringing the masses together... ( or minions... lol ) and trying to explain what some minds have trouble doing... that is accepting the facts. Thanks for a job well done! Respectfully, Seth

[@383c10]

This is exactly really good to know if you want to make as much HP as possible on low boost.

[@gallupcustomknives2293]

Love the 3d printed intake radius

[@kendrickwilliams3696]

Nice!! Great feedback

[@earl8590]

Great vid! Learned alot, +1 sub🔥

[@383c10]

2nd time watching video. I thought about it more. I agree turbos spinning that type of power would be very bad to drive in the street.

[@ShawnGilbert1967]

Actually a smaller procharger, I run a -94 and it's very peaky...in fact there is something not discussed at all here, the -94 can drop 5-6 psi on the shift its so peaky... The M3SC marine I ran on my car come on boost and held it like a PD blower... For this test since he stopped at 6300 on the turbo or less and two of them... Might have been fun to see the twin torque storm curve their impeller comes on quicker... 2. A P1X or D1x turned near its max rated impeller speed would have drastically improved that soft hit on the -94s rising curve it would have been WAY closer...then dump out the peak in the same way you did with the turbos a waste gate, I have 2 Vbands in my charge pipe just for this...then you can also get a DS Delta and change tune ect ect for TC.... I get we are showing the difference but efficient twins vs a peaky -94 impeller running below its compressor map speed with that 4.25 pulley isn't a remotely close comparison... You can make a smaller p1x/d1x hit really hard spun to their max impeller speeds or you can do it with the -95 say in this test even a 3.85 pulley stopped at 6300 or with a waste gate would be a lot closer..... That said it looks like the -94 uses a little over 120hp to make 500 net...well that's actually great considering an F2 required a cog and would take 2.5x that... Ironically I run a F1A-94 with a BBC using a short stroke literally to do what he said let the chassis work a bit in the old 67 Camaro on a drag radial..... Interesting....thanks as usual

[@edwardbedford8233]

Great stuff! I know from a street perspective, on a sub 1000 HP application, turbo(s) look like the way to make big power at a lower boost level.

[@utahcountypicazospage5412]

Just depends how you want the car to act traction is also a factor

[@pettersaethre]

@@utahcountypicazospage5412 turbo is great with awd. rwd not so much

[@Spad68]

It really depends on budget. Abbilty to do the job . Your engine you are building or already have . One robbs alot of hp from the pullies and rev much higher . The other has 2 turbo and runs much more efficient but cost more to build.

[@xaviersimmons1843]

Hey Richard should i go with a shorter push rod since i had my heads shaved .030 or should i stick with the stock 7.400 ?

[@im1469]

It would be awesome to see you do a video comparing the procharger I1 to various other options. The variable ratio drive is interesting to ponder.

[@davegrant3949]

ccg🪴🍄🍄

[@speedlife301]

It all depends on the build , how the parts are speced and weight of the car and set up. I run a 416 with a Ysi race centrifugal blower and it’s not laggy at at. Power comes in at 2500 but I don’t see it because my stall flashes to 3500 rpm where my cam and blower all start to really come on . Proper specing of parts and how they work together is more important than just trying to make the most power. I’ve dog walked plenty of turbo 5.0, Camaros , gtr’s and civics most making more power than me because the 416 on motor makes plenty of tq to move the car and once the boost comes in it’s like nitrous that carries to 7500 rpm with a flat tq curves. I make almost equal tq to hp which is only seen in roots and turbo cars . Turbos are nice but I like my instant power , no lag , low heat , easy set up , easy to hook up but violent power delivery , predictable non on off switch power delivery and outside of you wanting to make promod power they can make just as must as turbos and on the same psi I make just as much power as some twin turbo cars but I think the Intake and cid heads play a big part in the efficiency.

[@richardholdener1727]

a centrifugal supercharger will always provide a rising boost curve-no combination changes that fact

[@speedlife301]

@@richardholdener1727 I’m not debating that I’m saying you can shift the curve to the left and have it come in early with pullies and a nice converter. Plus the power comes in hard but very traction friendly. I’ve had a Maggie and a lt4 blower and the race centrifugal on a vette is a better combo. You don’t need max tq at idle on a light vette that can bust the tires loose on motor alone. The power comes in hard and doesn’t stop where it matters in the mid and topend .

[@slowpoke4542]

Great video!

[@brianhoffman5414]

Great video thank you rich

[@Dudeman9339]

The one that works best depends on your situation. If all you want is to make power and spare no expense then a turbo is for you. If you want to have a linear power band without sacrificing exhaust tone but dont mind that it doesnt nearly blow your engine up at max boost then a procharger is for you (I may be biased)

[@kristiangronberg3150]

I think a big thing is also the turbo lag and not so much nowadays with electronics throttle body's but still depending on tuning, the handling of the power. Let's say you're on the corner getting on the power, the car can handle 30% of the power @your rpm when the turbo is not making boots, now the turbo is "creating" on boots and you have even more power you need to trotle down, in a perfect world you need to lift the trotle just the right amount when the bost is coming oon to maintain the manifold vacuum constant, but it's really hard to doo, lift little too much and the turbo is stopping boost, don't lift enough and the turbo will make ewen more boost in till it reaches the gate pressure. A supercharger takes all this away, jeah you still might have a really small window to play with in in the pedal, but when you find it, it's there and are little more stable. You can find this even with small engines, small power outputs driving on ice or snow, it's like having 5x more power than you can put down even wit 100 to 200hp and then you have your turbo wanting to kill you in every corner ewen when na power is all too much. Don't get me wrong, it's a lot off fun, it's just impossible to run some kind of good time All the best and keep up the good work 👍

[@2lotusman851]

Hah! I feel for ya. I have two turbo cars. One is easy to drive off the corners with the power on, and one isn't. The one that is easy (3.5L V8) has 2 small, factory T25 turbos, and a rising rate throttle linkage. The boost control is electronic and has throttle position as one of its inputs. The hard car to drive (2.2L I4) has a single aftermarket hybrid T4 turbo, that is a bit laggier. The intake has individual butterflys for each runner, and has a direct non-rising rate linkage. The boost control has inputs for throttle position as well. -- I would say that having only enough turbo to get the job done is very important. A compressor map to select the turbo is a must. Get a wastegate controller that has throttle position programming available. This may be your lifesaver. Consider a rising rate throttle linkage. Certainly drive out of the corner with the turbo in mind, accounting for maybe a 1/2 to 1 second lag time. I have no advice for wet roads........since my cars are mid-engine and scare the shit out of me when they cut loose under power. Cheers 😜

[@cannonsharp8620]

I have an idea that might interest you, and you have knowledge that I could find useful when creating a prototype. If you’re willing I can put you on a designing committee when I start the business process I’d love feedback on how to develop it further. I’ll explain more if you let me know.

[@slickcasner4205]

On the centrifugal’s I run a way more aggressive pulley. But lower the RPMs. On this test if the pro charger would’ve produced 20 pounds of boost at 1000 RPMs lower the entire boost curve would’ve been much higher. Turbos are just very efficient. Centrifugals just work awesome. I use a NOVI 2200x in my low 9sec fully loaded full weight 5thGEN Camaro.

[@patrick11169]

like many things, forced induction is not a question of what works, its what works better, for that application at that time, the turbos are more efficient, but larger, heavier, more complex option, and of course expensive. so if packaging and weight, and budget, are the issue a procharger works just fine, if having not enough power is the problem then turbos and figure out how to make em work.

[@utahcountypicazospage5412]

The way procharger delivers power is perfect no drama

[@hotdog9262]

@@patrick11169 turbo are also more reliable, done right. and not necessarily more expensive or heavier

[@jasin1441]

Love this

[@joshgessinger4509]

Like turbos but both r good just like the possibilities that turbos give u lol!! But on a budget build most HP for the money hard to beat a turbo setup. Specially the CX racing turbos get lot for ur money my opinion anyway. Great stuff as always Thanks u

[@GapSauceYoutube]

Sometime's the centrifugal powerband just feels faster, even if it isn't. And you keep your nice exhaust note!

[@CapnBubbaa]

Kinda like a 4 barrel vs 2x4 , is it always about horsepower...NO!!

[@GapSauceYoutube]

@@CapnBubbaa As long as it puts a smile on your face right!

[@nickhale117]

Man, I HATE how turbos change the Exhaust note.

[@yolofullsend]

Turbo helps me speed incognito..

[@GapSauceYoutube]

@Goes 2 Eleven Rising boost curve on a long pull giving the high rpm linear increase (placebo)where as turbo's tend to surge then hold in my experience. Like a turbo diesel but with more rpm 😅.

[@earache_srt8790]

< so I should start planning on pro-charging the 392 Hemi in my single cab 2005 Ram????

[@donbrutcher4501]

Bigger Procharger spinning faster to match the airflow capabilities of the turbos and then control the boost with electronic wastegate controllers same as is done with the turbos. Create whatever torque curve you want.

[@richardholdener1727]

YOU CAN'T SPIN THE BLOWER INDEFINITELY, AND IT'S BAD FOR THE BLOWER LIFE-BUT IT IS POSSIBLE

[@matthewmiddleton2234]

@@richardholdener1727 What if you had small enough exhaust housings to be quick-spooling, massive wastegates to prevent too much backpressure & a system to control the turbo based on turbo shaft rpm? What would that do?

[@Joshie2256]

@@matthewmiddleton2234 Small turbine housings waste a ton of energy through the wastegates and don't make the same power as a larger turbine housing. The closest to what you want to achieve is compound turbos as the little one gets bypassed as the big turbo comes in. Variable geometry turbines are also good, but limit the low RPM boost due to compressor surge.

[@matthewmiddleton2234]

@@Joshie2256 Joshua, long story short, I first envisioned this in a compound turbo setup

[@joeyoung4309]

So just dump pressurized air you spent alot of effort making to atmosphere?

[@adamhodgeson9812]

Hi Richard, love your videos mate. Just a question, wondered if you could should a quick section of the actual dyno runs (video) that you use in your comparisons? Would be great to see, cheers Clint.

[@richardholdener1727]

LOTS OF THESE EARLY TESTS HAD NO VIDEO

[@utahcountypicazospage5412]

I love Procharged vehicles faster then what the dyno shows power is linear no traction drama spinnin ain’t winnin hands down procharger for the street all day

[@estebanod]

I have no idea what I just watched

[@brianmathew09]

I dont have time to sit thru all this...but from having a turbo and racing many a procharged combos..the issue is getting ahold of the converter down low on the turbo is a beotch. Very difficult to 330 with the centrifugal stuff. Boost controllers are a missing link ..traction control too. I for one just dont have the ways and means for those or to be changing stators for each surface. Zero doubt the turbos have the power as seen in MPH. Also, theres a reason you see a huge jump to the blower cars at the track.

[@cobramike13bravo63]

Enjoy all your videos, but any news on the project Nova?

[@michaelallen2501]

Hey Richard, I got some questions regarding crank pulleys and blowers. How far would you push a press fit crank pulley equipped engine with a Vortech V1-S? I'm running 6.8-7psi on my mild 355 LT1. Stock pulleys that came with the 20+year old Vortech kit. How far can I go before I need to think about pinning the crank? Can I pin this crank? If it has to come apart to cut a keyway I'll just buy a new forged crank lol.

[@richardholdener1727]

PIN IT AND BE DONE

[@srtjay8862]

Thank you sir which would you recommend for my 2012 jeep srt8

[@lockedinstreetracing6005]

That’s a real good test wonder if a f1x would had made much of a difference I mean I’m a turbo guy I’d never owned a procharger not that I wouldn’t but for the power levels and money it’s always gonna be turbos for me.

[@blow0me]

F1X would probably have broke.

[@Techangler65]

Richard thanks for the great video’s. Question I have a 2014 Silverado with the L86 6.2. Would you recommend say a Magnuson 2650 or turbos ? This is a pleasure so not worried about towing

[@richardholdener1727]

either will make a big difference in power

[@sw20indy]

So it should also be feasible to run a rising boost curve with turbos and ECU/electronic wastegate control. Would be cool to see a turbo dyno graph at 10psi mid range and 21psi at the top

[@ReubenHorner]

You can do that. With some wastegate setups you can run 0psi of boost even. I tell you what having an engine with a flat torque curve is great fun. Makes you want to keep revving it out

[@richardholdener1727]

0 psi?

[@ReubenHorner]

@@richardholdener1727 yea mate, if you run an electric gate or CO2 powered one then you can have as much or as little boost as you'd like. Mix this with the wonders of modern ecus and you can make your power curve whatever you like

[@timothybayliss6680]

Right on

[@scottleggejr]

I wonder what a CVT (transmission) on the blower input shaft would do where it would spin the impeller faster at lower engine RPM and slow input as the engine speed increases. How would it compare to VGT turbos?

[@RyanMcIntyre]

What about hybrid drive, the engine turns a generator that powers a cell that powers an electric drive.

[@mxguy2438]

Procharger makes one.. "I" force or something.

[@RyanMcIntyre]

Kind of hard to beat a turbo though, look at those boost curves, plus there's no parasitic loss.

[@d-phoenix2198]

@@RyanMcIntyre Parasitic loss on Turbos definitely exists (remember, the engine can't exhale as efficiently) it is just less than a mechanical one.

[@MichaelMassimino]

I'd like to see a cost analysis of twin turbo vs pro charger

[@ryanrevis827]

Seems like the pro charger is a much simpler set up with less tuning needed. It also seems like it would put less stress on the system overall, the variable curve vs the more straight line output would be easier on the whole system. Plus there’s your transmission and gearing options that could make a big difference.

[@richardholdener1727]

both need the same amount of tuning, and the blower puts more stress on the crank snout, but both work well

[@SasnarDash]

What would you do with a 6th gen camaro manual?

[@hotdog9262]

done right turbo is more reliable as there are few moving parts to make it happen

[@magnum9987]

Richard, can you do a video comparing the boost and power curves of different boost control set ups? 3 port, 4 port, and 2x 3 port set ups etc.

[@richardholdener1727]

how you program them would make more of a difference

[@sstevocamaro]

Them turbos are efficient af!!

[@joeyoung4309]

Thats their biggest advantage, more effecient and dont take HP to run

[@99alexisagc]

Are you going to the good guys show in Pleasanton?

[@hisproperty1438]

Hello Richard, I really enjoyed this test & video, so much so that I just had to make a comment. When you displayed the output from the engine fitted with the Procharger, I thought that the torque curve (& curve is a relative term in this case) seemed very bad - the RPM at the HP & torque peaks looked very close. I figured out that the torque rose the way it did because the boost output was a function of engine RPM, not exhaust output. But, I also thought that choosing a gear ratio spread for that engine would be very difficult, as most options would give weaker acceleration at upshifts. It wasn't until you mentioned the drag racing situation where it all became very clear. Since most cars raced with a Procharger are fitted with either a direct drive, or a 2-speed transmission, the RPM drop calculations for gearing is mostly irrelevant. That was the bit that I enjoyed. So, thanks for the test & video. Now, I'd really like to see how a roots supercharger compares to the Procharger & turbo combinations. Anyhow, keep up the good work. Thanks. :)

[@richardholdener1727]

NOT UNUSUAL FOR THE CENTRIFUFGAL TO MAKE PEAK HP AND TORQUE VERY CLOSE TO EACH OTHER

[@hisproperty1438]

@@richardholdener1727 Yes, I figured that out. This test also proves that an engine dyno is a much better tool for the car's tuning package.

[@theozman38]

High end rpm of boost is salvageable. Drag racers do it all day. It’s called a scrambler. They just close the waste gate and blow off. To use the spare boost they otherwise would be blowing out.

[@yolofullsend]

Not quite.. scramble boost is a 2nd boost level setting, usually triggered by a button press.. yes it effects when the wastegates open/how much.. the bov always stays closed under boost regardless..

[@theozman38]

@@yolofullsend. Ok hey thanks for the info. I’m not promoting a channel but SRC racing talks on that scrambler, ya that button. Hold on!!! it could get crazy if pushed 😁😁.

[@Drunken_Hamster]

So what would you recommend for small engines (sub 3L) in automotive applications for daily performance and occasional track use(both strip and circuit)?

[@richardholdener1727]

TURBO

[@Drunken_Hamster]

@@richardholdener1727 Drat. I was kinda hoping to take advatnage of centrifugal simplicity on my Duratec 2.3. But oh well. If you'd be so kind as to answer, given the same application mentioned in my previous comment, do you need or recommend forged pistons, or are good quality hypers with ring gap and a conservative tune okay?

[@200mphgt40]

Until you're traction limited, area under the curve wins. Which means turbo! I however like superchargers better. Have run both. Both can make bulk power. But turbos just win on so many levels.

[@Drunken_Hamster]

@@richardholdener1727 At what displacement level or displacement-to-weight ratio would you recommend centrifugal supercharging over turbocharging? 10lbs or fewer per CI good for Centri with 15lbs or greater per CI better turbocharged? To do the conversion for you, an example of 10lbs per CI would be a 3500lb car with a 5.7L, and an example of 15 lbs per CI would be a 3.8L, and 20lbs per CI would be 2.9L, all still in the same 3500lb car (driver and fluids included).

[@keefespencer1173]

Even in Street Outlaws NPK almost every single person in the top ten in points up to this point has a Hemi with a Procharger on it with the exception of a one big cubic inch nitrous engine and maybe a Hemi with a turbo or turbos on it and a 481x with a turbo or turbos on it

[@dakotaautosales9673]

There happens to be 3 nitrous cais nitrous cars in the top at NPK and they all went to the hemi pro charger because of the weight brake

[@carlspackler9550]

Looking at cams for my Project SLEEPRRRRR F100 and ran across these 4 Pattern Cams... I would love to see a test with those if possible. the theory behind it sounds great but I want to see dyno test.

[@richardholdener1727]

WESTECH HAS TESTED THEM

[@sjcperformance]

What is the cost comparison between the 2 systems? I have a 2005 ctsv with the ls6. I already have full length headers and full exhaust and a cai. Trying to figure which route to go. will be daily with some drag use.

[@yolofullsend]

Turbos cost more and are more difficult to install.. you will deal with oiling issues and have to worry about overboosting... they make the most power... if you want xxx power without the headaches then a supercharger is the way to go.. just know its less efficient and puts way more strain on your engine and its bearings.

[@davevan9150]

Have you done boost curves of different sized turbos? I'd like to see that.

[@b.c4066]

Be next to impossible compile any meaningful data because the curves would be different depending on what engine, how the engine is built if I'm not mistaken. That's why good manufacturers will provide efficiency maps for their turbos

[@andivatar6383]

i guess it'll be very dependent on the ignition timing curve and camshaft profile. but yea it'll be interesting

[@richardholdener1727]

THE WASTE GATE CONTROLS THAT TIL THEY RUN OUT OF FLOW-THEN BOOST FALLS

[@danacook9615]

So, as a tuner, can you tell me for the horsepower gains which one gives the most power per specific fuel consumption? I know that they both have parasitic power draws and it seems to me that the supercharger seems way less complicated and has the most linear power curve. What are you thoughts on dollar per hp gain? Great video and thank you.

[@richardholdener1727]

turbo wins for power and fuel consumption, though people don't care about how much fuel they use under boost

[@albertfarias9120]

AWESOME CONTENT FOR LEARNING KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK HONOLULU COMMUNITY IS WATCHING BIG AL HONOLULU HAWAII MANOA VALLEY

[@richardholdener1727]

YES-BIG ISLAND-WE WERE IN OAHU THIS SUMMER

[@craigslue]

It would also seem that running a centrifugal would be more dependable more forgiving with less breakage and destruction.

[@brianmathew09]

maybe easier to tune..but dependable?? dont think so

[@craigslue]

@@brianmathew09 absolutely, turbos and other superchargers have much more torque down low which is going to cause less dependability and more breakage.

[@brianmathew09]

@@craigslue been running and tuning turbos for 20 years..been watching friends send their prochargers back to them time and time again..drew my conclusion from experience. The fact that prochargers 60 better than turbos should tell you something.

[@RTRacing87]

Richard have you done any videos boosting higher compression engines like over 11:1? What tips can you give for boosting an 11:1 ls7?

[@joeyoung4309]

If its gonna be a street car youll need to drop the compression or just accept you cant run much boost on 93 and if you want to turn it up youll need some higher octane "race fuels"

[@chrisbergeron5399]

I have 11:1 brand new build i bought in a deal. Wanted a twin turbo or procharger but engine was built to spray. Billy the kid is 13:1 twin turbo, why have people said I need to drop compression to do so? Richard says I have less margin for error, is it that bad? Billy is pushing 30-35 psi at it and I know my motor is on par with his if not better. Forged Ls 408

[@RTRacing87]

I think most people assume it’s gonna be a daily driver type vehicle running on pump gas. Better fuel, less timing is gonna be the biggest deal from my research.

[@sstevocamaro]

Hey Richard, is it possible to just be able to control the torque production on a turbo setup while keeping horsepower the same?

[@2zztercel558]

Thats basically what turbos are for, horsepower is just torque at certains rpm's, the higher rpm you make the torque the less torque you need ;) so big turbo on low boost for you.

[@sstevocamaro]

@@2zztercel558 Let’s say I have a 500hp engine that makes 600tq. Can I keep it at 500hp and turn only the torque up to 800tq using only the boost controller?

[@2zztercel558]

@@sstevocamaro using only the boost controller no, but if you want more torque than horsepower youre gonna need a smaller turbo at higher boost. It will make more torque sooner and torque will fade before making more hp than what you want it to. The boost level does not change the powerband, only the turbo size and design changes it.

[@2zztercel558]

@@sstevocamaro but honestly, 800 torque with only 500hp, means that it either revs really low (like a diesel) or that it lacks a lot of flow. And those applications can be really stressfull on an engine. Flow is better than pressure for hp and reliability.

[@2zztercel558]

@@sstevocamaro and most of the time you need to think about it this way, torque = air velocity/pressure and horsepower= flow/rpm Making hp is less stressfull on an engine because its just about keeping torque until the end.... torque is about making as much pressure/velocity you can as soon as you can... but its all about preferences.

[@dsm4959]

Although I know some of the slightly smaller ProCharger head units only make @1000HP. Since the F1A PC has a different gear ratio in it and takes more to spin compared to other PC Units, Do you believe the Power Curves May be different with a different Head Unit with smaller gearing? Thanks great content, as always....

[@richardholdener1727]

Every centrifugal I have even tested has displayed this rising boost curve-very little boost down low-then max at max rpm

[@evanarthur7535]

Twin turbos will spool up faster than a single turbo at the same cfm. And Procharger needs to develop a continuously variable transmission for the internal gear set.

[@richardholdener1727]

you can size a single to do the same thing as twins

[@evanarthur7535]

@@richardholdener1727 Single vs. twin would be a comparison I’d like to see.

[@edwardwood3622]

Procharger does have a CVT called the “i”.👍

[@evanarthur7535]

@@edwardwood3622 I’m not seeing that on the Procharger website. Do you have a part number? A variable vane compressor housing like the Ford Powerstroke diesels would be an interesting idea.

[@markrich3271]

Cfm / lbs min and manifold density is what we all should be comparing, boost numbers are only good for that exact engines owner for testing .

[@maxhorner2409]

What I gather from this is if I am puttin this in a pickup the procharger is better because it builds more power down low vs the turbos which need to be at 4000 to pass the procharger. Correct?

[@richardholdener1727]

the turbo was better everywhere

[@samsue1224]

Would be great to compare the two chargers on the same motor Yes extra work and money But it’s a much more useful experiment

[@richardholdener1727]

I have a number of direct comparisons between turbos and blower (on the Mod Ford I tested turbos, cent blower, roots blower & twin screw blower-all same boost AF and timing)

[@samsue1224]

Ok, I’ll have a look

[@diamendking]

Turbos all the way!! . Too much power is a nice problem to have 🏁😉

[@marcojordan7430]

Turbo all the way

[@LMach1]

I'm lookign to put a procharger on my 5.0 with a 1st gear ratio of 3.66. What benefits from a turbo would I see over the procharger? I'm not looking to kill myself, but get a little extra off the line power. I like my car exaust loud too, as I've heard turbos take away from that (not sure how much though).

[@richardholdener1727]

neither of those choices (turbo or procharger) offer immediate, off-the-line boost response. A PD blower is better at that, but a turbo makes more hp per psi than either once it spools

[@dylandesmond]

Change your gear pulley on your centrifugal to match the boost peak at the identical rpm. Then add a wastegate (or two) on the intake and an electric clutch on the centrifugal. Now the turbo is pointless. Better yet twin charge it have a bypass air tight throttlebody that is boost relay activated or a spring loaded sealed flap so you can spool up your bigger turbo quicker with the smaller 1000hp centrifugal. Then add nitrous.

[@richardholdener1727]

you can't change pulleys to get the centrifugal to make max boost at lower engine speeds. Only an electric motor can spin it up to max speed-complex and expensive-just get a turbo if you want what a turbo does.

[@scottythebody0811]

Great video. How would a twin screw or roots compare to turbos?

[@richardholdener1727]

only in response but not in power per psi

[@stlchucko]

For most people, they never see anywhere close to 1000hp; especially street driven cars. With those, octane of pump gas is one of the biggest limiting factors; especially when e85 isn’t common in their area. Depending on the engine, you may only be able to get 7-10 psi using pump gas (and still keep a decent amount of timing). My main point… This is where a turbo really shines; that it has less parasitic losses than a belt driven power adder (supercharger). At peak boost, it might take 50-100 hp to spin the supercharger (depending on the setup), while properly sized turbo will have considerably less…. Which means more power going to the tires. I’d like to see a direct A-B comparison. Like a junkyard 5.3, cam only (maybe something around 220 @ 0.050”, a Sloppy S2, or that 224 degree crane cam you use a lot), and make the boost around 10psi (match the turbo to whatever the supercharger does). Runs to the same RPM. I bet the turbo ends up making about 50 more peak HP.

[@michaelangelo8001]

Lol, Holdener says a turbo has *zero* parasitic loss...

[@blow0me]

If you can only get 7-10psi on pump and are knock limited, you're running crazy high CR which was a poor choice for a pump gas build, unless you only wanted 7-10psi.. Everything is a package. It's not difficult to run, 20, 30psi on pump fuel.

[@AdmiralRustyShackleford]

@@michaelangelo8001 Only after it spools. Off idle it produces backpressure, a restriction and the bigger the turbo the worse it gets, that's part of turbo lag.

[@stlchucko]

@@blow0me There is absolutely no way you're running 20-30 PSI on a stock compression LS engine (even the lowest compression ones, which are 9:1 or so) on 91/93 octane pump gas. The only way you can run 10+psi is with conservative timing and meth injection; and even then, you're not putting 20+psi.

[@stlchucko]

@@michaelangelo8001 On an optimized system, there's virtually "no" parasitic loss.... But many systems aren't perfectly optimized. It's easier to measure how much losses will be on particular supercharger at a certain boost level. Parasitic losses from a turbo is dependent on each individual combination.

[@racingjoe27]

Do you have EGT or fuel consumption figures from these tests? I’d like to see the torque when the F1 is making 21 pounds at 6300 RPM

[@richardholdener1727]

no EGT or bsfc numbers-I never ran 21 psi

[@keefespencer1173]

Next video should be either Single v. Twin v. Compound or Procharger v. Compound

[@fredfranklin1965]

If you put twin pro chargers on it .I think it would be a better comparison. Carroll Shelby put twin paxton's on the super cobra sack in the day.

[@aaronliddell4280]

I disagree, if the single head unit is sufficiently sized for the power goals, it’ll definitely make more power than twin blowers creating twice the drag to meet same power goal.

[@KreatorOfDeath1985]

The curve would look exactly the same as one procharger. It's still same boost per RPM. You could add 20 it would be the same.

[@richardholdener1727]

if you add a 2nd blower-the airflow doubles (boost goes way up)

[@bogusphone8000]

Show the pulls from idle. How much time is any engine spending at that point in the rev range?

[@yurimodin7333]

from what I understand most/all dynos can't do that very well.

[@bogusphone8000]

@@yurimodin7333 The common use for superchargers and blowers is lower in the RPM band. While turbos are spooling, a properly sized supercharger is building off idle. Turbos always win on the top side as the exhaust gases continue to excelerate.

[@mxguy2438]

Despite dyno limitations, pulls from idle dont make sense in the real world. If you have an automatic, its going to downshift and the converter is going to flash to stall speed. If you have a manual and youre making pulls from idle in high gear... You probably don't like your motor very much.

[@richardholdener1727]

WOT AT IDLE?

[@Fk8td]

@@richardholdener1727 that’s what I said lol. Who goes wot at idle? The lowest I ever started wot was 2500 and that was for street tuning purposes.

[@HerrPoopschitz]

Not wanting to run drag radials on a daily? Auto w/ low stall speed and a centrifugal👍

[@yahyayarim5727]

Rica etsem altyazı seçeneklerine Türkçe dil seçeneği ekleyebilir misiniz ? Sizi anlamak ve takip etmek istiyorum !!!

[@ryanbennett7106]

If you used a wastegate on the waste gate on the procharger deal it wouldn’t make more boost sooner?

[@richardholdener1727]

IT WOULD ONLY CHANGE A LITTLE IF YOU RAN A SMALLER PULLEY-THE GATE WOULD NOT ADD RESPONSE

[@ryanbennett7106]

@@richardholdener1727 i apologize that made no sense in radial racing and or no prep from what iv been around if your trying to leave east but make a shit load out the back door we put a super small pulley on the blower make the most power possible and then open the waste gate and use it as a “boost controller” in a sense letting it leak psi on the hit than on a timer ramp it in shutting the gate and creating and or forcing more pressure into the motor though as you’ve shown here the blower is going to make power with rpm but in a vehicle with a converter it’s going to stay within a certain range of rpm

[@ryanbennett7106]

@@richardholdener1727 I really appreciate you doing the tests you do I am building a 408 Ls stock block good rotating assembly with ls3 based heads an going to go blow through and between a 4500 body and a 4150 body on a 4500 base any recommendations? It’s going in a foxbody street mainly strip on e85 with full exhaust 2”primary headers from American racing an more than likely a f1r or x

[@dwej9080]

This was two turbos vs one Procharger?

[@richardholdener1727]

THINK FLOW & POWER RATE AND NOT NUMBER OF BLOWERS/TURBOS

[@Aether52]

How would a twin Centrifugal Supercharger setup compare to the twin turbo setup?

[@richardholdener1727]

twin blower will support more power than 1 blower-but require even more parasitic losses to drive

[@Aether52]

@@richardholdener1727 but will the end power output on the higher end beat out a twin turbo setup or is it still in the turbo's favor?

[@TheProchargedmopar]

👍💪

[@bl00dh4nd4]

That’s crazy, what compression ratio are the 5.3? Did you have to lower compression?

[@jasin1441]

I think it's like 11:1 stock

[@TheTW13]

@@jasin1441 The newer 5.3 do have 11:1 but this isn't an EcoTec 5.3. This is a Vortec 5.3 so the compression is 9.6:1

[@jasin1441]

@@TheTW13 ahh my bad. I thought it was a l83

[@richardholdener1727]

stock 5.3l lM7 is low 9s

[@bl00dh4nd4]

@@richardholdener1727 that’s perfect for boost right?

[@jeremypike9153]

Was the centrifugal running an intercooler setup?

[@richardholdener1727]

YES

[@MegaMyk777]

EBC my friend

[@dcarden3031]

I know a turbo guy running 8.80s and a prochargerd guy running 7.84 with same set up Same car.

[@billygullifa3245]

Richard elx Richard excellent job

[@scottmijin9463]

Looks like I’m better of going turbo since I make more power faster and quicker compared to a centrifugal supercharger, and at lower boost levels

[@brianmathew09]

way to many variable for that to be true in all cases and combo's ..have to see the number of PC combos in the winner circles..much easier to get ahold of a supercharger in the 330

[@texasstreettunes1310]

Ive used nitrous, centrifugal sc and turbo. funnest one by far was the turbo also it was very very cheap i made a kit for 1k not as cheap as nitrous but it was annoying to fill.

[@monakhirat8527]

can i have it both?

[@HorizonPaintingHawaiiLLC]

Curious on the fuel consumption. Turbo should use less fuel no?

[@richardholdener1727]

yes