How To Be Precise And Accurate Do I Need To Be In Woodworking

[@standswithfish]

Yup. I am one of those machinist guys. My secret on accuracy? Make your project FIRST, then draw up the plans. When asked "Did you mean to make it like this?", I say "Yes, exactly like that"!

[@karl_alan]

Agreed. Hardly ever use plans, so as long as things fit together using the parts for reference, it's all good.

[@MP-ou7lb]

Different approach: draw only those measurements that MUST be right. E.g. on a bed: the inside width that must fit the matress. Start with those parts and work the surroundings to just fit.

[@SpookyMcGhee]

I'm one of those "machinists" as well lmao. +/-0.060 is good enough unless it's not wood and its metal, then it's whatever that gosh darn engineer put in his badly made print...

[@MortimerSugarloaf]

Once I discovered these concepts, the whole world opened up. I remember the exact moment it all clicked. Since then, I've had far less stress and anxiety about things coming out looking machine perfect. And "building blind" (freestyle vs plans) makes it all the better since I get to choose every dimension arbitrarily as I go and all measurement is relative. Woodworking like this reminds me of playing with Legos, except I have to make the Legos first. Every project is so enjoyable now that the process is the point, and the product is just a nice bonus at the end.

[@billboy7390]

Teaching woodworking for a long time at a college your theory is the hardest for my students to grasp. After the first semester, some the idea just click’s one day and some on the second semester but there are those that even after 7 years nothing seems to click and those are usually the happiest and they are there to have fun. We have a few retired machinist’s in the class the have figured out that a 1/64th is close enough and some with strarrett dial indicator’s. Best job I’ve ever had. Students from 15-85. Hardest habit it break has been wanting to sand before they’re ready to assemble or even cut there mortise rounding shoulders off that need to fit nice and crisp and close or sand for hour’s. How many times make them get a cabinet scraper out and scrape to re-flatten it over sanding.

[@brucegibson8053]

After all the years I spent in Construction it was "The plans say to do it this way", so when I decided to get into wood working I was the same way. I soon found out it doesn't have to be exactly "this way". Sometimes it's more fun and challenging to free build (my term?). It at least to me, makes some pieces more of an adventure. Thanks for the reassurance in my thinking. One of my ventures is going to be a coffee table & end tables to match. Thanks again!

[@philkieran7521]

One of the best videos of yours I've seen and I really like your vids in general. I flit between paralyzed trying to be accurate and never getting anything assembled as it's not accurate enough. This is great

[@tatehogan5685]

I'm still a very new to woodworking and have been bitten by the cut list already. Thank you for making sure to say that cut lists shouldn't be done all at once because that might save some other newb like me. Also I thank you for the great content, learning while being entertained is a pleasure!

[@WoodenBoatBen]

“Boat builders build to the nearest boat.” Hey, I resemble that remark! 😂😂

[@What_Other_Hobbies]

1/36” marking measuring tape is not difficult to go off of, but also difficult to find.

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

I am glad someone caught that! and congrats on first!

[@What_Other_Hobbies]

@@WoodByWrightHowTo YEAH!😎

[@What_Other_Hobbies]

@@WoodByWrightHowTo I do have some drafting rulers with scales built in. Maybe there is a 1:9 scale option and 1/36 will be the quarter marking on it.

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

I spent too many years messing with scale rulers! now there is a fun topic!

[@mathewdruggan8877]

Constancy is definitely the most important portion of the art of furniture making in my opinion. People stress over measurements but i hardly ever hear anyone talk about square, level or flat. That being said I am still one for accuracy down to the .001" where feasibility allows. But the reason is I do a lot of fabrication work for older homes and need pieces to exactly fit and replace. Furniture though (unless you plan on mass production) is usually a one off and just needs to look good and function well; not be +-.00000002" to be a good chair or armoire.

[@Eulemunin]

As a CNC programer the question always was, what does it do? Then doing medieval wood work it all became adjustable. Then traditional boat building got me leaving everything proud for fitting.

[@MP-ou7lb]

I suggest a challenge for all beginners: "Build a small piece of furniture WITHOUT ANY MEASUREMENTS!" You can use marking gauges, sticks with lines on it, a sliding bevel, marking knifes, pencils, etc.... But you are NOT allowed to use any tool with a SCALE on it! Try it! It will open your eyes!

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

I have done that several times. I made a chest of drawers a few years ago with 10 drawers and never used a measuring device within a story stick.

[@Rocketninja200]

That quarter sawn oak looks whoa so good! Just wait till some blo is slathered on!

[@kb6dxn]

Tape measures can be different, always use the same measuring tool on a project.

[@timort2260]

I tend to build as i go but I'm also buying a dial indicator tomorrow so i build toward perfection and utilize my mistakes.

[@glenallan815]

This is extremely well explained. Thanks, James!

[@CleaveMountaineering]

I call this tolerance awareness. Machinists do this too, just at a smaller scale. As an engineer I make a lot of plans, and as you said, some dimensions are critical, while others could have some flexibility. When in doubt, call the engineer...

[@brucegibson8053]

??? Really? :) I've dealt with a few who I questioned their ideas. What's put on paper doesn't always work out so well. But in turn most of you do have a good idea on what is going on outside the office. Oh by the way, 43 years in the commercial construction field.

[@pettere8429]

A good engineer will put the required tolerances on the plans.

[@CleaveMountaineering]

@@brucegibson8053 Most of my drawings are for structural steel fabrication. They are architecturally intense one-offs where we all question the architect... Some dimensions are critical to the fit up or strength of the entire structure, others are less critical. We are in regular contact with the shops to talk through all this, and visit in person when possible. We do a few machining drawings and for those I give tight tolerances where necessary for a fit allowance or press fit, then loosen up less critical things so they can move faster.

[@melainekerfaou8418]

Thank you sooo much. This is just the type of advice I was looking for when starting working with hand tools, because accuracy is costly with hand tools. I need a part II video though, to explain when we need to have exact thicknesses, flat faces, straight sides and perpendicular faces (this takes a lot of time with a hand plane). For instance, I am working on a table frame similar to what you are showing, and I figured the following: - The inside faces of each leg need to be flat and square to one another, especially near the top. Thickness does not really matter (unless I want the legs to be flush with the skirt), and the outside faces do not need to be dead flat. Smooth is good enough. - this means that the mortises have to be referenced off of the inside faces of the legs, by the way. They have to be as accurate as possible in every way, except depth and perhaps length if the tenons are glued (because the strength comes from the cheeks of the tenons, not the narrow sides) - the shoulders of the tenons need to be cut square and accurately aligned to avoid gaps. - the outside face of each skirt board needs to be flat (no bow nor twist) otherwise the frame will not be square if I use the face as a reference for making the tenons - the top sides of the skirt boards need not be very straight nor square nor smooth as I can always plane down high spots if the table top does not fit well (and the top will hide most other defects) - the bottom edges of the same boards only need to be flat and square 'to the eye'. Same for widrh (from top edge to bottom edge). Length matters (between tenon shoulders, as you mentioned) - this means that the width of the tenons will not be perfect, but I can always adjust that to the mortises, and anyway, only tenon thickness and shoulder squareness really matter. - the inside faces of these boards can be left rough As a recap, in terms of planing, with 4 legs and 4 boards in the frame, and 4 sides each (not counting the cross cut sides), instead of having to plane 8*4 = 32 faces flat and square and with perfect width and thickness, I only need: - 8 faces flat and square to the adjacent face (inside faces of the legs) - 4 faces flat (outside of skirt boards) - 8 faces smooth but not flat or square (outside of legs) - 8 faces straight-ish and square-ish (top and bottom sides of skirt boards) - 4 faces rough (inside of skirt boards) In terms of thickness, the only place where accuracy is needed is for the tenon cheeks. All the other parts can be just eyeballed. That's a whole lot less work than trying to replicate the result of machines by hand (as in 'how to dimension lumber by hand'), making hand-tool woodworking much less daunting.

[@MortimerSugarloaf]

I can simplify this immensely for you. The only things you need to be flat and square are surfaces that reference another surface in the finished project. Joints, shoulders, reference face, and reference edge. Your writeup pretty much nailed it. And yeah, it saves a ton of work. Hand tool work is a very different mindset than machine work. Once you start to figure out where accuracy is important in your project, things will be quicker and more enjoyable.

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

This. What he said Flat, square and smooth are all the same thing as correct length. They only need to be square if interacting with other things of measuring off of it like on the fence of a square. If it is not seen, interacted with or measured off then it does not need to be flat, smooth, square, or the correct thickness.

[@ianpearse4480]

I like the measurement 3.14159, oh no wait a minute, I like pie! LOL. Story sticks are brilliant. Stories are good. Sticks are best when they are Pooh sticks.

[@nightwing321]

Adam Savages chasing zeros is what got me on my journey into woodworking. So I’m still trying to get out of that mindset. Thanks for this video. I love your humor and wisdom mixed in. I have a quick question. Where do you get your plans? Is there one place or do you scower the internet for what you like?

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

I don't use plans. I just design my own things. After you've built a few pieces of furniture, you can look at a piece and know exactly how it's built. For the plans I have available on my website, I don't create them until I have built the piece so that others can follow along.

[@jgo5707]

I have only completed a couple of projects but a recent one was a trifold picture frame for a birthday. I used a book with plans and immediately threw the cut list and plans away and used the image to know visually what the goal was. The LWH were all changed about 60 seconds in to the project and precision was based on fingertip feel. I decided 2 pieces were the right length when they were laid against each other and my fingertip couldn't tell where 1 ended and the other began. What that measurement was exactly, I dunno!

[@walterrider9600]

lol yup it is one of my problems . i was a machinery repairman ( machinist ) in uncle sams canoe club making parts for submarines . so .0002 of an inch on all those parts .

[@thewalnutwoodworker6136]

I can't take a plane shaving finer than 0.0005!

[@1pcfred]

Submarine manufacturing is a special case. We haven't needed a new sub in a very long time. But the fear remains of losing the ability to manufacture subs. So we keep the industry going on life support just to retain the ability. Something as specialized as a nuclear submarine you don't just decide to build. It's not that easy. You shut something like that down and it's over then. You can't just fire it back up. It took decades to achieve the capability. When you're in real need of such things you won't have decades to rebuild the infrastructure. So we keep them limping along building a new sub all the time as slowly as humanly possible. Which turns out to be about 4 years or so. Part of building as slowly as possible is your ridiculous 0.0002" tolerance.

[@benstradling7615]

Making some great points ones could easily use those same plans and put their own measurements if they wanted to make a bigger or smaller table plans can be seen as merely guides to the woodworker

[@animalcrash]

This makes so much sense, thank you

[@PeteLewisWoodwork]

Most plans can be adjusted to suit the individual project. When making something like a table, outer (visible) dimensions should be as accurate as possible but slight discrepancies can pass as ok. If one stretcher is 1/64th inch longer than the opposite, nobody is going to notice. That is what hand made furniture is all about. It worked before and it works now. Is it perfect? No Is it better than mass produced? Yes.

[@MortimerSugarloaf]

Poor James. So many people ribbing you over the 1/36th thing. At least they're all in good fun. But I thought of something that might help soothe the burns. If you're measuring everything relative, 1/36 is just as valid a measurement as 1/4, 1/2, 7/19ths, etc. They're all equally meaningless. So you weren't making a woodworking faux pas, you were just delivering a subtle reminder that we need not live and die by the measuring tape!

[@JeanMinutile]

As far as I'm concerned I almost never get the measurements out of plans. I usually draw the plans for 3 reasons, see if the proportion looks good, see if what I have in mind work (i.e. can be assembled), show the project to my wife for approval if it's an important piece !!! And sometime tables and table legs do not even need to be dead square as long as it looks good, in your example you will have a drawer so it better be square but its not even always the case.

[@craigsherrill7070]

Would you mind explaining more about why the inside may be left rough? Aren’t the joints marked onto these parts? I’d assume that if the inside is uneven then the mark will be uneven

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

Usually all marks are referenced off of the reference, face and edge. And in the case of this stretcher the reference face would be the outside face and the reference edge would either be the bottom or more likely the edge that sits against the top of the table. So all of your marks reference those two faces. So there's no reason to have a smooth face on the other side.

[@warrenmunn3224]

Do you ever "gang cut" piece's to get matching lengths, especially for cutting the shoulders on the tenons? Or does the risk of the pieces moving in the clamping method make this too much of a "risk"? Making the frame/base then the top makes a lot of sense.

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

Gang cutting is not a big benefit to hand tools. It takes the same amount of time to cut, and often more due to the setup time and greater distance of the cut stroke. So no just one at a time.

[@MCsCreations]

Fantastic tips, James! Thanks a bunch!!! 😃 Stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊

[@ga5743]

Good info James thank you , on another note I have a question about the wall in back of you. What are those blue triangle things, they have 2 holes in each of them I think.

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

Those are square clamps. I can put those on the inside corner and put a clamp to either board. And it holds the board at 90°.

[@AJ-ln4sm]

Great video good information

[@toddbrightly8460]

Great video! Helps put into perspective for folks. However I do have to say all have there time and place. I see folks talking about framers being +/- 1/4" tolerances. Which while yes some do, tho the ones worth their weight know when they need to be spot on and other times they can be close enough. A quality framer will make damn sure the door/window and other critical pieces are spot on for the next guy. While a random stud off on a layout line in the field isn't a big deal. Poor framers make the finish guys job very difficult. Imagine say a door opening being out by a 1/4" well that quarter just doubled as the wall was framed on the deck. Now the finish guy may need to pull out a Sawzall to cut Jack's to make the door fit as to now the door is a 1/2" out. So like you said some don't matter other places do. Same as for finish carpentry. A wood ceiling can be a 1/4" short on all side(which it should be anyhow) because the finish trim will cover up the gap, just like base board will cover the wood floor being short all the way around. Where scrib fitting a case face frame to a wall takes a knife to fit. Not trying to be picky here but as a well rounded carpenter framers get a bad wrap for being lax in their tolerances. It is as you said a time and place to be spot on and where we all can be lax. Just depends on the final outcome. But definitely a good summary of the how and when.

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

It is just an old boat builders joke. It does not make sense without the series. I actually use to be a framer for many years.

[@SteveC38]

Nice Job Explaining That 👍

[@vicvancini140]

Really helpful, thank you!

[@triune_blades]

This was an awesome video. It was very helpful!

[@whittysworkshop982]

Work by hand for only a few months and it will become clear that accuracy isnt that important for most parts and their size. Shannon Roger's said before; and I quite like the way he worded it..... we can fall asleep at the saw for the first part of the joint, it's only the second mating part that's important. Matching mating parts or opposite parts is important, but not what a machinist would consider accurate...... I work to about 0.5mm tolerances (that's around 1/66th 🤔😂) I find that works for basically everything I do 😁 I wonder how common your scale with markings of 1/36th is...... you might have a unique one there James 🤙😂🤣

[@jwydubak9673]

9:09 * pinch rods, not story sticks Can you explain the punch line about the boat builder?

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

That's an old joke that boat builders like to say.

[@1pcfred]

A boat is a hole in the water the owner attempts to fill with money.

[@timziegler9358]

Is this video being shot at Colonial Homestead? :) I always enjoy your videos! Best wishes.

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

This one is in my shop.

[@cindyharrison4191]

Thanks that's great 👍

[@lincolndickerson1293]

Story stick or… Reality Stick, oh yeah. I need a couple reality sticks

[@frankfronczak4469]

Good video on an important topic. A couple of points I might add. (Full disclosure - I am a semi- retired Mechanical and Biomedical engineer who has been doing woodworking (rough and finish carpentry, and cabinet and furniture making) for about 45 years and who now does both woodworking and metal working/ machining). I think it's important to not conflate accuracy with precision. These are different, although somewhat related concepts. Roughly speaking, accuracy is related to how close you are to a target on any individual action. Precision is how closely spaced multiple related actions are to each other. In woodworking, in your example, the accuracy required in the length of the stretchers is not particlarly high (that is, the tolerance on the length of the first one that you cut could be as much as +/- 1/4" or so). But, the second one needs to be very close in length to the first piece (typically +/- 0.005 or so - depending upon your standards and the particular situation). This is a measure of precision. You can think of the difference between accuracy and precision by considering shooting arrows at a target. Accuracy refers to how close an arrow is to the center of the bulls eye. Precision refers to how tightly the grouping of arrows is. If they are far from the center, but closely spaced, then your shooting is not accurate, but precise. If the arrows are tightly grouped right near the center of the bulls eye, then you, like Robin Hood, are both accurate and precise. In woodworking, as in metal working/machining, there are times that accuracy matters, and times that accuracy is not as important, but precision is still important. Sometimes neither is particularly important, and sometimes both are important. It is important, though, to understand the difference between the two. As the Roman philosopher/teacher/orator said "If the words are confused, then the mind is also". Finally, while machinists typically work to tighter dimensional tolerances than woodworkers, achieving tolerances on the order of a tenth of a thousand of an inch (+/-0.0001") is quite difficult and beyond the capability of typical machine tools such as lathes and milling machines. Typically, these machine tools can reliably, repeatedly produce parts within a tolerance of +/- 0.002 or so (depending upon a number of factors, including, but not limited to, the condition of the machine and, in large part, the skill of the machinist). To put this in perspective, an ordinary piece of paper is about 0.004" (4 thousandths inch) thick. One tenth of a thousandth (0.0001") is about 1/40th of the thickness of a piece of paper. Looked at another way, a 1" long piece of steel would expand about this amount when subjected to about a 15° F change in temperature.

[@domintetarus7840]

boatbuilders are accurate to the nearest BOAT, that's a good one :) I don't think the Tally-Ho people got that memo though ;)

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

lol yup. though they have spouted the same joke a few times. I need to get back out there some time. it has been almost 4 years now.

[@evelyngorfram9306]

Not to nit-pick (okay, definite nit-pick), but- some story sticks are story sticks, and some "story sticks" are more commonly known as "pinch rods." (I also second @Yang Ji 's comment about 1/36" vs 1/32" on tape measures.)

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

yes I misspoke calling it a story stick. did not catch it tell after the edit was done. oh well, can't change it now.

[@evelyngorfram9306]

@@WoodByWrightHowTo Misspeak is at 9:10. You also mention a "stick" at 9:14 and as a "story stick" at 9:18. While what you say is true of story sticks, you appear to be referring to the pinch rod you're holding at those times. Considering the subject of the video, maybe I can be forgiven for being such a "stickler"? ;)

[@ilikewaffles3689]

Seems way more complicated but I'm sure it results in better-fitting parts.

[@MP-ou7lb]

Its not more complicated, but takes more "thinking time" in the shop. Having a precise plan beforehand saves that time but requires extreme precision. Precision again requires a lot of practice and quality tools. I have a panel saw (sliding table) now - this allows a precision of 0,5 mm on first cut. Not so with my old table saw. Different tool, different way of working.

[@andrewj5998]

I just t want to point out that there's a subtle difference between precision and accuracy, although many people use the two terms interchangeably. Precision has to do with reproducibility while accuracy has to do with being close to a desired mark. Consider a dart board. If you throw four darts and they all land on the same spot on the adjacent wall, you're precise, but inaccurate. If they all hit the circumference of the bullseye, you're accurate, but imprecise. If they all hit the same spot within the bullseye, you're accurate and precise.

[@dpmeyer4867]

Hear, Hear !!!

[@J.A.Smith2397]

Down to 64th!

[@TheDistur]

👍👍

[@justinsane332]

you dont really even "need" to be square with something like this. it can function, even if the eye can pick up the angle being off. so again, there is so much flexibility. (woodworking) the problem is that one can know this, and still sweat and stress it the whole time anyway. thats my problem.

[@1pcfred]

They made the Taj Mahal out of square because if it was square it'd have looked out of square. Like Jimmy Diresta says, If it looks square it is square.

[@B_COOPER]

Jeams, im about as accurate as *you’re* spelling!

[@FrankPace54]

This has to be the most complicated explanation to the definition of "Acceptable Tolerance"

[@justinsane332]

your title is messed up, just so you know. i know you have made mistakes and fixed them before, the only reason i mention it.

[@Shopwolfe]

It's a joke

[@andrewmcgillivray1881]

accuracy and precision are not the same thing. making one piece exactly to plan and within tolerances is accuracy. if you need to make multiple pieces that are all the same, using pre-cut pieces and all the pieces fit properly regardless of which parts are combined (as would be the case in production lines) then that is precision. pre-cut - precision.

[@TheSMEAC]

To be fair, there’s quite a bit of individual philosophy at play here. I’m like James and work to the dimensional philosophy that ‘looks right, is right’; there after accuracy builds by necessity. But if I used the term “doesn’t matter” that many times in a 180 day period (about any or even many topics), that person would be right to tune me out. -Just my 2¢

[@mlsmcc]

I'm desd

[@lincolndickerson1293]

Boat builder joke lolololol

[@thewalnutwoodworker6136]

It is almost imposable to work to +-0.001 with hand tools.

[@WoodByWrightHowTo]

almost! but then the wood moves. LOL

[@1pcfred]

@@WoodByWrightHowTo if wood's moving you should lay off the sauce.