The 4 Ways to Write 3rd Person Omniscient

3rd Person Omniscient is historically one of the most used POVs, but these days you don't see it as much. How do you write third person omniscient? It has many paths you can take and is heavily intermingled with 3rd person limited. Deciding what path you want to take will help you set goals and stay oriented as you write.
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[@AroundTheCampfire]

This wraps up our series on POV! I'll probably make a video on 2nd person eventually, but I want to explore other topics before I get there. If you're unsure which POV is right for you, check out the first video in this series to find the best choice for your story: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y2PSZaioetGHeZY

[@EmperorZelos]

I am actually doing that "All show, no tell" part (mostly) :)

[@gradstudent1011]

Great video! I wish the repetitive drum and cymbal track in the background wasn't there though :( after a while, I could only hear the percussion and not the words.

[@sarahsander785]

This video was extremly helpful. I struggled for a while with finding a narrative style that both fits me and my ideas, because for some reason you are ALWAYS told not to use 3rd person omniscient. But that's the POV that comes most easily for me (I think mostly because it's the style of books I mostly read). A lot of times it leans towards 3rd person limited, but then I have section were the narrator shines through (or in my most recent book I even switched to a diffrent character to brin in a flashback - I loved this, BTW, and will make use of it more in the future). What this video actually showed me was that it's the execution, that's the problem. The upper left quadrant, the "Dune Route", as you called it. The omniscient narrator that shouts at you. This and the poor execution some people do, mostly when they switch POVs by accident and later declare it omniscient. Also I think I will try something akin to "Name of the Wind" in one of my upcoming projects, where I have an omniscient narrator who is also a character in the story. I'm not yet sure on the question of how to do this, but I like it. It would work so well with the story, it's scope, theme and the character. Given that I have four MCs in it, I probably assign one POV to each of them, but "dune" a little bit with two of them. Not with all three non-omniscient ones, because No.3 is something special. Mmh, that sounds like an idea worth following. If it doesn't work I can always change it.

[@katsmenagerie106]

I'd like to propose an alternate version of the old saying, specifically for 3rd person omniscient: mute your darlings. Every character's thoughts are important to me as the writer, but not everyone's thoughts advance or clarify the plot. But it does hurt a little every time I erase or rewrite someone's pov paragraph through they eyes of a focal character. (This is for editing purposes - I think venturing into those thoughts can be really helpful in an initial draft, especially if you have a large cast.)

[@AroundTheCampfire]

For sure! It's important to know what is actually important to share, especially in 3rd person omniscient stories, which tend to be complicated haha!

[@kimstout9553]

I love that! I may use that phrase as a screen saver. :). Mute Your Darlings. I struggle with it, and agree for a first draft it is easier to vomit it all out and revisit. It breaks my flow if I concentrate too much on the muting as I go. But, yeah, silencing and revising their thoughts can be tough.

[@5Topdogg]

So far I am definitely using the fourth style. Like Dune, my story has a lot going on, and with several characters. It would be a lot more work and would mean a crap ton more chapters and scenes to do it any other way.

[@osmigtorres2333]

that's what I'm doing with my debut novel, I show the perspective of the main characters.

[@rustneversleeps85]

What kind of writer are you limiting yourself to the number of chapters rather than telling the story you wish to tell the way it asks to be told? Imagine Frank Herbert or Tolkien saying that: "Ah shit, I'd rather do it like this or else I'd have to write shit tons of additional chapters." You are writing for the wrong reasons. You don't seem to enjoy telling stories but rather the end-goal, which is probably something more ego-driven.

[@5Topdogg]

@@rustneversleeps85 that last part about it being a lot more work was meant as a kind of joke. Trust me when I say, I'm not limiting myself by any such things. I got into writing because I love stories. I've spent the last fifteen years writing and perfecting, what was once one book, but has turned into three. Do I want to move forward yes, but I also want the best possible version, of the story I want to tell.

[@MrJethroha]

I think another axis you could add is whether or not the narrator knows they are telling a story or are just experiencing the story as it happens. Some 3rd limited narrators are recounting events but most experience things as they happen. Some omniscient narrators are observers, but imo the best know where the story is going and actually add to the story outside of it's actual contents.

[@millville]

I'm a complete beginner with writing a novel but so far I've been able to identify it as 3rd Person Omniscient. A fun/creative rule I have is that it gradually emerges that one of the characters is actually me (and I'm the narrator). In doing so, my knowledge of this one character is much more intimate and delicate than all the others ... and only gradually becomes the main character, and my knowledge and narration of characters that my main character is indifferent towards is intentionally limited and shallow. Mind Candy!

[@Justin-tg7xn]

It makes me feel like a god when I'm writing third person. I don't know why but I prefer more on writing the settings and world building rather than the actual story.

[@EmperorZelos]

I actually do the low knowledge on characters but high knowledge on the world kind of narration :) I have meta reasons for it I call it "Omnituent", which means "All seeing" and hence "all show, no tell"

[@kengause9259]

I think you could write a book using the IV quadrant if you restricted your head-hopping to inner thoughts between two characters as part of dialogue. It can add to the emotional intensity and immediacy of some scenes. I am writing a novel now where I find it works better than religiously sticking to single POV chapters. Agree that the chapter needs to be clear about who is thinking what. Should also be used sparingly.

[@JakeA6956]

Head hopping between paragraphs like Dune isn't confusing. It's no different than how dialogue is treated. The new line plus character name and action beat equals you are now following that character, thoughts, speech, or otherwise. Replace the internal thoughts with dialogue and it works the same.

[@oojjee]

man I just gotta say I love this videos!

[@Allan_Lugia]

Hmm... i think like DUNE.... that might be... my style... no wonder i find it hard to explained to others, or dont feel like i fit into the other perspectives.

[@alexanderdietrich9943]

I really understand the temptation; it really seems like the most flexible, if not unorthodox, POV out there. It just sounds so appealing being able to describe things in broad and cinematic ways, but also zoom in close enough to hear a character’s thoughts. I just don’t know how marketable it is. Haha. I hope the writing is going well!

[@artistvsworld419]

I gave myself the challenge of writing a romance story in 3rd omniscient following more the dune style. I didn’t realize this was the style of dune before this video as I have not read dune or even attempted to do so. I just wanted to write a story in a different less common perspective than what I’ve read most commonly. I’m enjoying the challenge so far and I am loving it.

[@tattoodude8946]

I too have a trilogy in this has this style - I wrote it that way without really realizing it. It just felt right to dip into a character's head at moments that were pivotal and give further insight into how they perceived things. I think the key is to not get too excessive with it. Dune is complex due to its world building, but also his switches in perspective are frequent. It is certainly a balancing act and easy to fall off the high wire! My editor and I are in "discussion" about this now. She says it "can" get confusing. To which I replied, "But is it?" --- Gotcha! 🤣🤣🤣

[@Allan_Lugia]

@@tattoodude8946 what does your potential readers think?

[@tattoodude8946]

@@Allan_Lugia Honestly, I sent out a dozen beta reader copies and not one of them seemed to even notice the POV switches because they are brief and/or transition cleanly and clearly.

[@ineednochannelyoutube2651]

Sacrifice for the algorithm!

[@RelativelyBest]

Huh, interesting. I'm not new at this writing thing but I don't think I've ever heard of this quadrant model before. It does make sense, though, and I'd say it's a handy way of thinking about it.

[@AliCatGtz]

Wonderful video! Thank you for the insight 😸

[@skullytaylor6095]

Ty for saying its a spectrum. No one talks about it which was furstrating being a reader of post modern fiction that can be very mixed.

[@AroundTheCampfire]

For sure! Once something has a label, it tends to have a single definition, but with the arts that's not always the best way to approach understanding things about it. It's weird because phrases like "3rd person omniscient" are so helpful to discuss writing, but it oversimplifies so much at the same time haha!

[@PNWAffliction]

what a perfect topic!

[@AshfaultAssassin]

Hey, I know I'm a bit late to this video, but I would like to thank you for making it since I would really like to become a fantasy author but was having a lot of trouble understanding how to do this point of view. The video was clear and straight to the point. You Certainly gained a sub today. Thanks!

[@AroundTheCampfire]

Glad you found it helpful! Good luck with your writing 😄

[@Starfox371]

Damn. I'm trying to avoid narrative POVs that are overly complex, but I'm here to see what tips and tricks there are to make quadrant IV more approachable to readers.

[@StarlasAiko]

I am planning one story that would be written in 3rd Omni, since the narator is an Oracle. I even have scenes planned where the narator has to backtrack, is surprised or uncertain and contradicts themself, as well as a scene where the main character meets the Oracle, which will include the only one single paragraph written in 1st.

[@SillyRobot]

Sounds really cool! Have you made any progress?

[@StarlasAiko]

@@SillyRobot Not a lot. I have bits and bobs, disconencted scenes and loose concepts. Sometimes it seems, the more I try to work on it, the more it falls apart

[@SillyRobot]

@@StarlasAiko Damn. Sounds cool though, I hope it works out.

[@floramew]

I wrote about 30k words for NaNo one year in all show, no tell style. It wasn't good, but it was a good learning experience. It's long gone by now, unfortunately. Would have lived to read it back, but alas

[@Paul-cy9ej]

This has been incredibly helpful. Thank you.

[@stefbeg]

Prescience is one of the main concept of DUNE. So not only the style makes us follow Paul's struggle with his prescient abilities, but the style actually makes readers as prescient as Paul is since we can follow all characters' thoughts and exactly know the future from Irulan's epigraphs at the beginning of each chapter. From the beginning, we know the end of the story. In a way, Herbert makes us live Paul's experience fully.

[@efs797]

Thanks so much for this. I'm working in 3rdPO rn and I can't see a way around it because of the nature of it. Much more mindful of the pitfalls of the challenges of Dune, however. Will carefully take that into consideration. Again, heartfelt thanks

[@xxBreakxxAwayxx3]

amazing ty!!!

[@johnterpack3940]

Thanks. Now I know that I was writing my story observationally. I don't know if that contributed to my lack of progress. But I kind of like it. The omniscient PoV is great for big stories. I just don't really enjoy narration so much. And I'm unsure how to write it well. What to say? When? What to not say?

[@addisonyancey1719]

If you're looking for books that fit the second quadrant in this example, I think Where'd You Go, Bernadette by Maria Semple is a close fit. It's not perfect, but the daughter is only left with clues so she can only guess what happened (through observation) of what happened to her mother. Also, Ella Minnow Pea by Mark Dunn would fit this as well. Great story. One of my favorites, but it is very unconventional. I recommend checking those out if you want to study this type of "low narrator knowledge and low character knowledge" writing.

[@alexanderdietrich9943]

What do you think about a short series on tense and how that decision would tie into particular POV styles and genres?

[@ethanstenhouse910]

I want to write in 3rd person omn. However everything I find online says getting published will be almost impossible. Not that I'm expecting to be published but I have several main characters that are important. I've tried to pick just one, but my big focus is that they are all equals so for one to be the important one - 1st person pov feels wrong.

[@AroundTheCampfire]

I say go for it! You're going to have way more chances at success if you write something you're comfortable with as opposed to forcing a POV you don't like. Point of view isn't going to get your published-a great story will though.

[@residentevilinsider6580]

Just look at Where the Crawdads Sing. One of the bestselling novels of recent times, and it’s written in third omniscient 🤷‍♂️

[@dragonchr15]

if you can do it well and tell a great story, i don't think it matters

[@EdenAnarchy]

Question- say you're writing something that is low narration and low character knowledge (you're learning things as the character does) without making it feel like a tiktok video with too many jump cuts? That's the phrasing my partner just used when reading the first bit of a story I'm working on, and I want to help it flow more organically.

[@Jezebellum-l2u]

That's the problem with third person drumming - you can't hear or concentrate on what the first person narrator is saying. Extremely annoying.

[@jedielfqueen]

I came here to figure out what my story is - the Dune type - oops. But I don't know any other way to tell it. The narrator is the Overseer of the world and literally is omniscient.

[@jesterjay420]

I’m in the same boat, big world, group dynamic with several protagonists. I wouldn’t know how to tell it from one, or even just two limited perspectives.

[@jedielfqueen]

@@jesterjay420 In the time since I wrote that reply, I have decided to write it third person close with multi-POVs. I got so stuck for so long and am finally breaking through!

[@oldguyinstanton]

In terms of 3rd person omniscient, how would you characteriuze The illuminatus Trilogy by Shea and Wilson?

[@dragonchr15]

i think the maltese falcon was all show and no tell....but yes, pretty much anything on tv or film that doesn't have a voiceover is all show and no tell...i see no purpose in writing a novel this way you may as well just write a screenplay

[@ronaldcostello7021]

I understand third person omniscient, but what I don't understand is can the third person narrator have dialogue where he isn't present. For example, the third person narrator is describing a deadly car crash. Can the driver and the passenger in the car have dialogue when the narrator isn't in the car?

[@MagnetMagicGirl]

The narrator is everywhere. Your main character isn't. Think of the omniscient narrator like a movie camera. The camera can see what the main character doesn't. Depending on where the camera is, you can create anticipation, dread, or confusion. Each can be useful when done right.

[@SaramadHill]

I find first person a lot easier. Third person got me comments like "show don't tell" which traumatized me away from godhood. At least my first person stuff does well

[@MrRosebeing]

Once upon a time he watched a KZbin video that told him nothing he didn't already know. Meanwhile, his neighbour next door watched a KZbin video on different kinds of snow. Perhaps one of them had a better time...he didn't know.

[@socratesandstorybooks1109]

Okay so could you switch between 1 and 2 throughout a novel since its a spectrum????

[@AroundTheCampfire]

Technically yes. Actually, Jennifer Egan has a short story collection that uses 1st, 2nd, and (I think?) 3rd person. One is even structured as a powerpoint. You have to turn the book 90˚ and everything. It's wild. Should you or I do that? I don't know but hey may as well give it a shot if you want to! -A

[@socratesandstorybooks1109]

@@AroundTheCampfire I feel like it would make the story almost all show and very little tell. Which would be powerful.

[@SuperBeanson]

great content, but the drum solo on top is insanely irritating

[@ajfalcone7917]

SCEEN

[@dcle944]

What’s up with the drum? All I hear is the drum. I can’t concentrate on what you say whatsoever.

[@balazsi.8459]

I'm writing my YA fiction in the DUNE way and I'm enjoying it. It has 5 main characters because why not I guess? But beta readers doesn't understand my art... xD

[@skipperry63]

The drumming is so distracting..

[@ard52192]

You made me snort with the …..give a dog a bone. 🦴

[@v.w.singer9638]

I write in the style of DUNE. I think of it as film in a book. It can be panoramic, or zoom in to an intimate monologue. The POV can jump from one party/location to another. But the narrator doesn't blather on about events independent of the character's actions, except when scene setting or describing happenings not involving any particular character, e.g. a huge traffic accident up the road that the MC is about to run into.