How to deal with client revisions

[@chrisbrockhurst]

I'm really liking the idea of wearing a mic all day, car ride podcasts can be done on a whim.. very interesting!

[@GriffinConway]

I feel ya Scott! Learned this one about 6 months ago with a client. Now I do my pricing for a rough draft and final draft, with revision pricing in the contract. Shows your integrity though to follow through for that client.

[@FlorianLand]

"A boss has the title, a leader has the people." So true, Scott! and from my pov the number one thing most companies in today's corporate world haven't understood yet. Guess we should all at times listen some more Simon Sinek ;) Love the new audio set up btw. Big thumbs up 👍😃

[@scottmckenna]

Thanks my friend.

[@MichaelDrowley]

Also I’d say that even though there is no contractual statement of terms on revisions with this client. They are essentially expecting your time now free of charge. They actually need to be made aware of this. I don’t agree that you should just work endlessly revising the video. When this happened to me early in the game it was because the client did not have money to pay the final invoice. I’d tread carefully and communicate that you are now well beyond budget for completion and your feel your time is now being undervalued.

[@3Torts]

EXACTLY!! At some point it's a bit crazy...

[@MichaelDrowley]

Thanks for sharing Scott! We’ve found the sweet spot to be 3 rounds and I place it as a line item in all my quotations so our clients understand that a revision includes export AND re-upload (minimum charge included just for export/upload). It’s been a real game changer. In the contract we charge after the first 3 and we apportion responsibility to the client, so it’s not our fault if they miss some wording or forget to include something important. Once they request a fourth, they are paying extra. We’ve only had to have someone pay twice after big changes with logo and branding coming after the video was already complete. The 3 rounds and contract outline works to gear them up to understanding that they need to work on the first 2 to get it right and the third is a final colour tweak/finess of wording and clip colour match before release. We also gain approval on track before the edit so that that any big changes like track change are actually covered under the contract as a re-edit and we charge the client for this. There are things that require an entire re-edit as opposed to just a revision here or there.

[@markshirley01]

Sounds nice - thanks for the update. Scott you said you've done a video on Frame io have you a link.

[@Blackfilmguild]

Love the quote Scott, I focus on government contracts mainly, and in my case I welcome revisions mainly because I want the repeat business and to keep the relationships. Also, revisions have to be paid for. This has to be said up front though. Setting a quote without revisions included is setting you up for trouble because you don't know how picky someone is... if you have someone with OCD who is in charge be prepared for a ton of revisions. The fact that you are taking responsibility and not making excuses shows that you are so much further than many other people from an EQ standpoint. Thanks for sharing buddy!

[@juliancroot]

I guess I did it the other way around. On my very first paid job I asked them to sign a copy of my terms of business where I stated only 1 round of revisions were included in the price. Since then I don't think I've ever once enforced that. Maybe I would politely refer them to my TOB if it really got out of hand, but I usually end up doing at least 2 or 3 revisions and think the collaboration is a healthy relationship building process. Or, maybe I'm just a soft arse who can't say no. Thanks for the vid Scott. Julian

[@benarnoux]

I think I like the idea of the separate audio. I think it opens up new avenues and ideas when filming. Also, thanks for touching on the area of revisions too. I’ve just finished a project where certain directions were insisted, and I knew those ideas wouldn’t work. After a few revisions, the project came close to what I was saying all along. You sir, need to create a course. I’d sign up in a heartbeat.

[@shadaiperez]

Yep that's exactly how it is man unfortunately. I learned the lesson 4 years ago we never had that clause in my contract and I did 20 revisions and not just simple changes dramatic changes to the edit changing tone and structure. Now you're right sometimes the client is looking at it as a consumer in another case we had a commercial they have a limit of four revisions and the final change was completely change the music at the end of the commercial from happy fun to Rock and me and the team did not think it was going to work but we send it out to the client they were extremely happy and the commercial ended up being a hit garnering over a million views. Now in all my contracts there is either one or two revisions allowed depending on the scope project. And what's really interesting is it's usually the jobs or the projects that don't pay a lot that need the most revisions and I think this is because of one or two reasons either they try to get the most for their money or they just never had a clear vision from the beginning I say this because working with a lot bigger budgets the vision is always clear in the beginning with a client and if they want any changes is usually just to a title or cutting out one shot and they are happy. Anyways great video always great advice!

[@MichaelDrowley]

shadai perez andolutely agree with you here on the higher paying clients being way easier to please. It’s because they understand the process and not doing it for the first time. They know what they like and what they want to see and they realise they are employing a professional company, not a cheap “video guy.”

[@KevinRossRN]

Real experience here... The hard way. I did the same thing and just owned the mistake and didn't blame the client. We continue to tighten up our budgets to include revisions, as well as the language/expectation when we send out proposals and contracts moving forward.

[@film-manufaktur]

Thank you Scott for this video. I ran into the same trap. Hopefully I will learn to make clearer, what Limitations we got in making Reversions.

[@webstermickey69]

Hi Scott very informative, Did you have unhappy clients? And how did you deal with it?

[@scottmckenna]

Watch the video

[@webstermickey69]

Yeah I know you mentioned, my comment was early hehehehehe.

[@DaddingAllDay]

It's definitely tough to hear when a client requests revisions of your "art". We almost take it like they are saying "it sucked! Change it!" When in reality they aren't saying that at all. Great video Scott!

[@scottmckenna]

Exactly.

[@JHambacker]

I’m in a situation similar to this with a wedding client right now. I actually decided to try frame.io with them to help facilitate our communication, but they have commented the video to DEATH. Over 100 comments on a five minute highlight film. And because we initially connected through Facebook messenger I have a short novel of back and forth dialogue of them asking to see clips among a variety of other extremely picky requests. I implemented a two revision policy in my contract, but it’s still been really difficult to work around. In fact, they have actually requested a number of revisions and then gone back on their request shortly after realizing my initial judgement was sound. It feels like a lack of trust. Two questions for you Scott. 1. How do you deal with huge numbers of frame.io comments if at all? 2. Do you utilize any other forms of communication? (Facebook/email/ect.)

[@scottmckenna]

1. Dealing with a huge number of comments is easy, you just check them off one at a time. 2. E-mail typically, but that's really it. Frame.IO is where all revisions must occur or I don't even address them. I need to know exactly where they are takling about

[@RicoResolves]

Great vid! Very informative again! I love the quality of the lav mic! When you're switching to someone else (so not doing talking heads or an interview) I guess you use the audio of the Videomic Pro +? Or is the audio from the lav mic still good enough to understand someone that is standing fairly close to you (and in front of the camera)?

[@mariomarez2223]

I love my DR-10L's. Thank you for all the work and experience you share. I am a total newbie at video jobs. I think it's because I have a full time job that is 50 hours a week, when I took on side video jobs, revisions scared me because I don't have a lot of extra time. From my first contract I put in two revisions, but now I am thinking of saying one revision only.

[@propertyfilmsuk]

I'm looking to find out what you and other videographers would charge for additional edits, not revisions. So for example I'll get booked to film a hotel and I deliver the final 1-2 minute clip. All good. Then they request (expecting to be charged of course) a few 15 seconds clips and a 59 second clip to be used for instagram. I'm wondering what would be a reasonable fee for each clip... I don't like charging based on time, but rather the value. And i'm sure most will agree that it can sometimes take longer to deliver a 15 second edit than a 60 second, depending on what is involved... Any feedback would be appreciated! Gary.

[@57JackCaptainSparrow]

Scott, great video.. came at a good time for me. Can I ask your advice for a situation I'm in? Shot a work friend's wedding for his son. We discussed nothing, and this was a no-charge wedding. I delivered a short demo/trailer, just to get something quickly to them. They loved it and posted it up on FB, got hundreds of likes. Work-friend Venmo's me a very large "tip", which blew me away. Work-friend calls, says the couple wants to meet to discuss full video. I agree to meet, but before we do, work-friend texts that the couple now just wants the raw footage, they have a friend that works at Pixar to do the edit. What would you do?

[@michaelocunningham]

I've had this struggle with both my web design and video prod clients. As the expert in my field I feel as thought I know what's best for them. But at the same time I have to ensure that they are happy overall...unless the work reflects my brand poorly

[@Silverhorse32]

What media format do you use to give your clients? Do you burn a DVD or do you use flash drives?

[@255132a]

Silverhorse32 mediazila

[@scottmckenna]

Mediazilla for weddings. Frame.IO for commercial clients.

[@Silverhorse32]

Thank you and Merry Christmas

[@chillzoneyt1]

Going through this right now, just got annoyed af from a client asking for too many revisions, i want to help but dam i got several other orders and things to do..

[@scottmckenna]

All part of business.

[@chillzoneyt1]

@@scottmckenna most definitely

[@NolanGunn]

Thanks for this Scott! I thought you might have something on this topic. Very helpful!

[@thethreeburgees1227]

Great video, Scott! It is the WORST feeling when a client sends a revision. This video is very helpful. God bless.

[@scottmckenna]

Don’t let it be the worst feeling. It’s not the end of the world.

[@arskortguldsj]

Well perhaps not. I filmed a concert and the band leader asked for numerous revisions and I got little tired of him. But when I looked at the end result the concert was just great and I really appreciated his interest and work to create an excellent end product. So when a client shows interest in creating a good product - listen an learn and feel somewhat blessed. :-) And Scott, keep up the good work I am learning a lot, and I also have an IKEA chair for my video desk. :-)

[@martydenson_mfm]

I think many of us have been there before with failing to outline as much as possible with the client and managing their expectations.

[@yevkenny]

Would love to see how you lav'd it up to minimize clothing noise

[@kencurrinmediaproductions2304]

Thanks for the new vlog with the DR-10L, with you being he expert sound guy, how about do a vlog on the Dr-10L and got through EVERY menu item? I don't know how to spell SOUND and I have purchase 3 of these things now. Getting ready to try it tomorrow on a family wedding, free gig to build a portfolio and gain some experience.

[@LukInMaking]

Hi Scott, thank you for the video. What is the name of the software you mentioned in the video that sync the audio effortlessly?

[@scottmckenna]

Plural eyes

[@morovblogs1526]

What kind of camera do you recommend for filming wedding?

[@DylanStreetIam]

Just curious, doesn't synchronize in Premiere work just as good as that other software you mentioned?

[@BabyBackManiac]

Same question here except in FCPX? What advantage does PE bring? Thanks in advance, Scott.

[@mikes_perspective6580]

Revisions.... I need to include that in my contracts now. Thanks man that’s very helpful.

[@allenadventures5407]

Having that audio on all day is a pretty cool idea. Especially for us that like to talk to ourselves. :)

[@Eli-lb1lc]

Hey Scott! Quick question, what do you think about aspect ratio mainly for general commercial work or interviews (don't do weddings) Thanks for all of your help.

[@michaelocunningham]

How big are the files at the end of the day using the dr10?

[@movingphotoproductions2830]

I've recorded for 7 hours hours and filled 7.56gb. This is also with it recording a backup track as well.

[@ezecreative]

First.. this is why I opened up Artismo Studio Share in south east michigan. So you don't have to film at starbucks. Second, love that you are doing this - but I need a video on how to deal with it when you are unhappy with your clients. From pushing for speed but then taking forever to get back with revisions to taking their sweet time paying the final payments. I have a problem were everyone need everything now and fast but they never move with equal speed.

[@ezecreative]

By the way, I also own a production brand, but this video is just great!!! I'm sharing this on the artismo studio share facebook page. Great advice that can help a lot of artist!!!

[@BRENDANGOSS1974]

Also set a completion date for the video with your client, and let them know in advance that if they have any changes to make, how long you need to action the changes.

[@scottmckenna]

Yup. Also good point.

[@MrTybo727]

Hey Scott, you make some great points. I usually do 1 free revision and anything after that is a fee based upon what they want done. I was wondering if you could talk more about the business side of things. For example llc or s-corp? Accounting, taxes, quickbooks, etc. I think it would be very helpful and not a lot if anyone at all ever talks about these things. Thanks for sharing!

[@dep1001]

Good stuff, Scott! Thanks

[@nuaveb]

Thanks for sharing on client revisions - really needed to hear this!

[@shawvercreations9703]

Another super informative video Scott!!

[@Jones_Media]

Notice squad 👌🏽👍🏽this video really hit home . Revisions limit are really important. I learned the hard way as well 😩

[@Mattayers92]

Hey Scott, what batteries are you using with the DR-10L?

[@movingphotoproductions2830]

It takes one AA battery

[@Mattayers92]

I own three of them so I know they take one AAA battery. I was more so asking what brand Scott is using to power his recorders for an entire day.

[@movingphotoproductions2830]

Ah sorry, your right, it is AAA. If it's worth anything, I use Energizer lithium batteries and it lasted me through 3 weddings with juice to spare. Well over 12 hours worth.

[@luthiengs]

00:59 Are you informing people you are recording them? I'd be pretty weirded out if I met someone for coffee or a business meeting, then found out later they were secretly recording the whole conversation. That's not cool.

[@dakkarocka]

What was the name of that audio syncing software?

[@DaddingAllDay]

PluralEyes by Red Giant.

[@scottmckenna]

Plural Eyes

[@RicoResolves]

You can also try and use Audacity. It's a free program. I use it to enhance my audio. Syncing audio is done in Premiere. However, I usually have no more than 3/4 audio tracks.

[@seecraig]

Define contracts in hours or days. Within that time includes revisions. You can set aside a number of hours or days for revisions. This has to be clearly defined though. Keep in mind some revisions are quick and some can be very complex which is why I think time based is important. You also need to include the option for a "Change Order" which is different than a revision. You agree on deliverables in advance. Sometimes a client is really asking for multiple versions which may be beyond the agreed deliverable. Or they're asking for something other than what was originally agreed upon. That would be a Change Order and would mean new billing. Keep in mind in time billing you can alway fudge if you want to give the client 110 and go extra hours or a day (and not let them know or bill them for it) but that gets to be your internal decision. In the most generous state you can always show the invoice of extra hours or day with a No Charge so they KNOW they just got more than they paid for. In a business where time is money (time is often the single most valuable resource) you have to guard and offer it with lots of forethought. If you let the client control your time without compensation you may go under (taking time from other actual or potential clients) or simply burn out.

[@ronflores7]

Hi scot, i was wondering how do you put the mic on and not hear when it rubs against your chest or shirt.

[@255132a]

Ron Flores tape

[@ronflores7]

Tony Cortez thanks

[@scottmckenna]

Not tape. They are Rycote Undercovers.

[@ronflores7]

Found them, thanks scot. Do you have a link so you can get a small kick back from amazon for these?

[@scottmckenna]

Sure do. Thanks for asking Ron. amzn.to/2UMRTZe

[@GreggMcLachlan]

Great vid, Scott! Terrific insights on something we all face... Revisions 👊

[@scottmckenna]

Yup. All part of the business.

[@charlesBenincasa]

So what if the client just keeps asking for revisions I mean your 10 months in what’s stoping them from continuing doing it a year in?? I think your wrong.. after 10months In I would express “Hey I know there wasn’t a revision clause in our contract but had after all the arbitrary revisions this is detracted from the total project and we are going to have to narrow down the goal and figure this out if not the project is going to go undone” see ya!!!

[@scottmckenna]

You can make that call if you choose, but that's now how I do things when it's not their fault. You learn from past mistakes and it doesn't happen again.

[@seecraig]

@@scottmckenna Although if you let this go on, it's going to damage your business financially. You can't keep any clients happy if you go under. You're going to have to discuss this with your client. Yes you risk losing the client but otherwise there may come a point where you risk losing your business. Difficult situation but you have to protect the business ultimately (if you want to stay in business).

[@scottmckenna]

Thanks for the advice. I’m good with the decisions I make, but the beauty of running your own business is you can make any decision you like as well 😄

[@GeoffRendell]

Your contracts need to have inclusions 'exclusions' and clarifications, the most important part is the exclusions, clearly stating what you are not going to do. So when a client needs a revision you can happily say I'll get right on it after I check the exclusions. Then make a change order, make MORE $$$, and get right on it.

[@ShinobiVlog]

Great tip on the audio, keep up the great work

[@KingStreetimages]

The worse scenario is when clients start requesting revisions to their revisions. As for recording all day: is it legal in the US to record people without telling them?

[@scottmckenna]

I’m not really concerned about it to be honest. I don’t use it for any purposes that would hurt anyone like black male or when they don’t know. No different than walking around NYC with a camera and having hundreds of people on a vlog that don’t have a clue what the camera is for.

[@KingStreetimages]

I just wondered what the law was in regards to the hidden aspect. I have no idea what the law is in the United Kingdom as for recording with a hidden recorder. It's fine to film/record in public spaces here but people still try to tell you that you can't film them or film in that location even if you mention all the CC cameras all around.

[@scottmckenna]

Yes there are definitely places I don’t film and I would never use audio if I wasn’t aloud. I don’t use it for “hidden camera” purposes. I use it for content but my content is clear and out in the open.

[@Ulrich.Bierwisch]

In Germany, the law about recording audio is very strict - more than recording video. It is a felony to record the privately spoken word without notification, so if you talk to someone directly or on the phone and record this, you need to ask for permission first. Typically it is not a big problem if you catch a few words when taking a video but if you tape conversations you can get in deep trouble. As far as I know, the law in the US depends on the state you live in. In some states, it needs only the consent of one person in the conversation and in others you need the consent of everybody in the conversation to be allowed to record it.

[@KingStreetimages]

Just wondering. I'm certainly not calling your motives into question. Is that a pun in the first sentence? If not claim it, if so celebrate it.

[@TheQuadView1]

Laughed at the beginning Loved the ending Got a lot out of everything you said in between. Keep it up dude!

[@scottmckenna]

Thanks my friend.

[@sungkim465]

a 10 month revision? SCOTT YOU CRAY!

[@scottmckenna]

Not literally 10 months of non stop revisions, it's been like I send them a revision, they take forever to look at it, and a month later I get revisions. That kind of stuff.

[@RockstarCinema]

Are you using frame.io yet ? Game changer

[@scottmckenna]

Yup. I made a video all about it.

[@jgaerialphotos4020]

Same thing happened to me...

[@HoustonBrownPhotography]

I agree that since you did not specify the number of revisions that you are pretty much responsible. However, 10 months?? I would do several revisions for them no problem but at some point you just have to put your foot down. Because you did not specify a number does not mean that by default revisions are unlimited. Just ask the cell phone companies about their unlimited plan. The problem with your situation is the the client will start to use you as a scratch pad. That means they may say, "Hey I wonder would it would look like if we did this" then "Na, we don't like that, lets try this", and so on and so on. You become a scratch pad. Even at some point I have said to clients, "I know we did not talk about the number of revisions so that is my bad, but I will allow for (some number of your choice here) and then after that it is billable time. I have never lost a customer because of that. As a business themselves, they understand that there are limits to an interpretation of unlimited.

[@emanuel_soundtrack]

i agree. He can say also that this is obvious: more work, more time, more money.

[@jtipale]

Isn't it common sense for clients to understand that time costs money. Just because you didn't mention it beforehand that doesn't mean you keep revising for eternity.

[@scottmckenna]

Not true. Don’t assume anything. That’s easy for you think everyone knows but people who don’t do this for a living don’t realize the time being put it. It’s a poor decision on your point to assume anything.

[@computerjantje]

I'd like a revision of this video without pointing to an affiliate link. It makes the video so much less valuable knowing you make money if I click a link. How can I take an opinion serious if I have to think all the time if you make money out of what you say. So please a revision without the advertisement of the software.

[@IIC4NCELEDII]

Cool. I learned a lot thanks. I'll drop a like

[@zacharybohlman4069]

2:53 *this is why I'm here*

[@scottmckenna]

Super important right?

[@JAYBIRDAERIALPHOTOGRAPHYLLC]

I may be shooting my first wedding next year 😅😅😅

[@bencorwin]

Is that a C-stand coat rack? Haha

[@scottmckenna]

It's not designed for a coast rack, it just so happens that we throw jackets on it haha

[@charlesBenincasa]

Be a leader and tell them no more revisions!!unless they are paying a lot of Money because well money talks 😁 .. But if they are small potatoes screw that!!!!!!!!’

[@scottmckenna]

Sorry Charles, I don't agree with that mentality. It's not their fault, it's mine.

[@charlesBenincasa]

Scott McKenna They must be paying a lot of money ...or a client that you feel will be a returning customer.