How To Get 4K60 Lossless Captures

[@DisplacedGamers]

Well of course I was taking a swig of iced coffee when that Voultar folder popped up. RIP monitor.

[@RetroRGB]

lolllll

[@SnakebitSTI]

For those curious exactly how much data 4k60 means, 3840*2160 pixels/frame * 3 bytes/pixel * 60 frames/second gives us about 1.5 gigabytes per second.

[@Elrinth]

how large does this compared to AV1 compression or h.264 or h265 ?

[@SnakebitSTI]

@@Elrinth No idea! Every listed compression efficiency I'm finding is in comparison to other lossy codecs, not uncompressed video. And the actual bitrate is dependent on both the settings and the video being captured. Seems like common 4k60 bitrates are on the order of 0.01Gb/s to 0.1Gb/s, but that does not mean the image quality is consistent, and it is not lossless.

[@Mastersaifer]

Bob, your winks in this and the latest weekly roundup are killing me ;)

[@jmssun]

I always hope projects like MiSTer can output raw NDI/SDI signal directly either over network or to USB. This way we can choose to have the signal displayed over OBS, NDI monitor or stored directly to drive as alternative to capture. This will be by far the most natural data we can obtain because the data will be in whatever native frame rate and color space the game or console is in, and the stream will be small in size because console resolutions are low

[@mjc0961]

Loved that wink about the Linux command line 😂

[@djexotic07]

i'm with you on that youtube format export.

[@worldoflongplays]

If only I had a fast enough NVMe drive to record to

[@RetroRGB]

I've got a spare if you want it. Just DM if you're interetsed and I'll drop the price: ebay.to/2ESH3e4

[@saeedalshaikh3799]

@@RetroRGB hmmm.....if only I had BVM D24 to play on.

[@worldoflongplays]

@@RetroRGB I would also need to upgrade my motherboard too, plus 500gb is not going to be enough for me

[@zaleski80]

"Voultar Nudez" 🤣

[@sneakingelephant]

MAC is crap for steaming imo. I switched to Mac with the M1 and love it for practically everything outside of gaming or video capture. Even Elgato products are barely supported well. I think I’ll look into something like this for a small PC capture only build in the future.

[@koalakoa]

Bob thank you so much for this video! was legit researching how to do this just last week.

[@CompletelyAverageGameplay]

Oh great, another thing to obsess over when it comes to my retro games 🤣. Kidding - thanks for the guide! I'll slap it on my wishlist but slightly compressed 1080p 60 will have to get me by for now (I recently discovered I had reduced my recording quality instead of increasing it a few months ago... Always take the time to understand your settings, folks!)

[@ID-BITS]

Great video Bob! Do you have any tips on how to stream lossless?

[@RetroRGB]

I'm pretty sure that's not possible, due to the bandwidth requirements. MAYBE if you were streaming lossless 240p...but that wouldn't work on KZbin.

[@beastworm]

I've used Avidemux for frame counting some speedruns (of course, way lower quality video). I wonder if with this setup it will drop frames.

[@RetroRGB]

Great question...I'll add it to my list of software to try!

[@LaneDenson]

Wow - virtualdub. That's a blast from the past. I remember using that to capture/process video from Star Wars laserdiscs.

[@rphoenix5908]

so, whenever I try capturing RGB24 from my Magewell USB HDMI Capture Gen 2 in VirtualDub2, it bugs out on the data format and won't let me do anything except capture in raw (always has a "couldn't locate decompressor for format" error). And even that raw file I have to fix with a hex editor. It seems to be reading the characters for the format code from the wrong field. All that to say, have you ever encountered anything like this?

[@RetroRGB]

I've never used a Magewell card. Sorry!

[@rphoenix5908]

@@RetroRGB no worries man, i appreciate the reply anyway. I was somewhat surprised to see VirtualDub2 not bug out on you in the same way when doing RGB24 capture format and thought maybe you had found a workaround or that a different version helped. guess it's specific to my capture device.

[@ChristopherJDeo]

I feel called out by the Linux folk wink. 😂 great video

[@romevang]

I'm not a video expert, just a casual tinkerer but it sounds like AV1 (as in AV-one) lossless mode maybe the solution you're looking for (eventually). Chrome and Firefox have natively supported it for some time (eliminating the need for a dedicated video player), and at the moment KZbin will convert videos from bigger channels that upload at 4k to AV1, However, it's at their discretion. AV1 by default is a lossy codec but like I mentioned it has a lossless mode. intel's new graphics cards as well as Nvidia 30 and 40 series have AV1 support (intel is encode/decode... Nvidia it depends? Decode on 30 series and encode on 40 series?) Considering that AV1 was intended for internet streaming, you could host your raw AV1 uploads on your website if you wanted to eliminate KZbin's compression shenanigans from the equation, it shouldn't be any issue for your webdev. However, that would likely increase the cost of webhosting. The biggest con (for you Bob) is that Adobe premiere doesn't support it yet, but VirtualDub does. Definitely something to keep an eye on. Judging from the video description, it seems like you maybe have considered it already. =)

[@RetroRGB]

As soon as I’m able to upgrade my video card to one that natively supports AV1 encoding, I’ll give that a try. I’m using a 3060 though, so that’s not an option at the moment.

[@Kaos1989]

I assume you were using a tink 4k for your Zelda and Sonic footage but were you using a Mister over hdmi to a tink 4k or original hardware with hdmi to a tink 4k?

[@RetroRGB]

For these examples, it was MiSTer Direct Video via HDMI. In the RT4K video, I showed both real hardware and MiSTer HDMI.

[@SlyInH3ll]

great folder names :)

[@chadwolf3840]

Great stuff.

[@-dash]

Is 4K really necessary? Couldn’t one capture in 1x, and (assuming there aren’t artifacts) it should look identical, right? Plus it’ll use a lot less disk space

[@RetroRGB]

For retro, sure. But what about modern games?

[@-dash]

@@RetroRGBOh yeah if the native resolution is 4K then this is perfect, although lossless is going to require a massive bitrate even in utvideo or FFV1 Tbh this hardware is pretty badass no matter the use-case

[@perpetualcollapse]

Great video 👍

[@alainchristian]

*Digital Foundry has joined the chat*

[@cortbelmont]

this is ok and all, but the irregular size pixels are making me sick... what's the point of perfect RGB metric ton weight 4k files if you are not using perfectly definded 256 rectangular pixels. Aspect Ratio should not be a problem on a 4K upscaler, even on 5x is just slightly wider, on 9x or 10x should be nearly poerfect

[@RetroRGB]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/o2a7aJKapcmKra8si=gXBbEHaKu1O84tNL

[@Spazbo4]

MPC does work going frame by frame, but not if the video is too short

[@JMLRetroRoom]

I love me some AVerMedia but I hate their RECentral. Could be because my windows computer is old and they don’t support Mac as much. What I mean is Mac gets limited and less support/updates but my Mac is also older so yeah it could also be that 😅. I use their LGP2 and works with everything I’ve thrown at it and I only use it in portable mode. It’s less bitrate that way but I’m not too worried as I still get 1080p/60 and that’s enough for me. Files are manageable but I can also capture as long as I want without file breaks. You should see my wire p0rn 😂.. It’s beyond the norm because I don’t use a computer to record and that includes PIP. Everything goes into my LGP2 micro sd card.

[@Fellipe2k5]

And external solution?

[@RetroRGB]

None. I tried though - Check out the Thunderbolt video.

[@Fellipe2k5]

@@RetroRGB thanks!

[@tek_soup]

you shure about that? i have both avermedia cards, the thunderbolt version and the pcie card in a Sonettech echo express 3d , i usually set very high settings, and i tried HDR and had no problems. That card is only Pcie 2.0 X4 thunderbolt is pcie 3.0 X4 the bandwith is their . my AjA Kona 4 is in a thunderbolt chasis it does it. well ill hear what you and wendell say.

[@RetroRGB]

100% sure.

[@blusterkong4556]

Love the new(er) intro!

[@neobluemax]

Good thing those 2TB NVMe sticks are getting cheaper. Great information. I’ve been using the 4K gamer for a while and love it. Streaming is very easy too.

[@GameSack]

Good video. As a Mac owner I'm gonna say that this probably isn't possible. Maybe on the newest Mac Pro, but I have my doubts. In capturing video from the RetroTINK 4K, I found that even HEVC 200mbps will get super wonky if I enable the scanlines/masks, especially RGB masks. So for that I've been capturing to ProRes 422HQ and that has zero issue with it. Giant files, though still way smaller than truly uncompressed. What they need now is a losslessly compressed codec to keep the files manageable but give us that perfect 4:4:4 quality. That would definitely add some CPU cycles to the act of capturing, but it'd be worth it.

[@ReikazeRambles]

Hell yeah! this is great! i wanted to do those frametime graph tools and was struggling with this.

[@trexslapfight]

Thanks for this Bob!

[@alexander_mejia]

Bob, thank you for this insightful info dump. I was unaware that you could get an 8-bit lossless 4k 60 output from this card. I've had issues with the Live Gamer 4k with 10-bit captures as it doesn't have the bandwidth to do RGB for 10-bit without dropping to 4:2:2 If I were not doing a review of a scaler device, and Just wanted to blow up my retro footage to 4k, which capture method and software scaler would you recommend to keep things point scaled but still have an NLE safe workflow? Have you tested ProRes 4444 to see if this is visually lossless enough?

[@RetroRGB]

Hey Alex! I tested ProRes last year with no luck. Maybe I was using the wrong version though?

[@CurrentGenGamesWithNick]

Love card

[@Gerenocidiac]

I have the avermedia gamer extreme 3, and I am thinking (based off this video) that this must be their dud product. Nothing I tried would alleviate audio stutter from my captures. Tested on Windows 10 pro, 11 pro, MacOS on a M2 macbook, ensured the LED was solid blue indicating it was working on USB 3.2. Even tried capturing at 720/1080p, and still had stutter for the audio while the video was smooth. Then I tried routing the audio from the red/white rca to 3.5mm jack, still did not help. Seeing how well this better variant worked for you, maybe I'll look into a different model. Cannot do the internal capture card method as my gpu takes up too much space, but I will try and not scratch this company off completely.

[@RetroRGB]

I've never tested the Gamer Extreme 3, but I've tested other Avermedia products that were terrible. Check out EposVox's channel, as he's one of the top capture card reviewers - If you need USB, his latest reviews might be exactly what you're looking for: kzbin.info

[@Gerenocidiac]

@@RetroRGB Awesome, appreciate the reply. I'll check that out, thanks

[@jamiej3776]

I am deeply confused as to why FFmpeg’s FFV1 does not work as well as UT Video in your experience. It’s the Library of Congress’s preferred video codec for real-time, lossless 4:4:4 encoding at 4K. The standard supports a 3840×2160 resolution at 60 Hz without chroma subsampling even at high bit depths (i.e. HDR) and the reference encoder is fast enough that a mid- to high-end CPU should be able to do real-time encoding at those specifications. Admittedly, I am more used to using FFmpeg directly than VirtualDub. Could it be some kind of bug in VirtualDub’s implementation? What kind of problems does it cause for you compared to the UT Video? I’m not necessarily trying to get you to switch if you prefer UT Video for any reason, but FFV1 is the standard I use in my own workflow and it would be the recommendation I gave anybody who had asked me for a lossless codec for video archival due to its status as a video archival standard and near-ubiquitous software support. I would like to know if there is some limitation I should be aware of before suggesting it to others however.

[@RetroRGB]

The highest I could ever get FFV1 captures to work at is 1440p60. It would drop frames otherwise. I have an i9 PC...maybe I just need something faster? Also, FFV1 won't import directly into Premiere, so I'd have to constantly reencode all the files I was working with.

[@Iglum]

🤔 i use the ZMBV codec to record DosBox lossless in the resolution of 320x240, then scaling it using nearest neighbor algorithm using ffmpeg.. is ther no a way to capture retro consoles pixel perfect in the orginal resolution and do something similar?

[@RetroRGB]

I have an entire video series on this, however the issue isn't capturing retro, it's capturing 4K60/ I just used retro as examples, since it's MUCH easier to spot color compression with older graphics: kzbin.info/www/bejne/oKuxYpV7iJ6DoZI kzbin.info/www/bejne/b6SbY3Zoa9uDr8U

[@TwinsArcade]

7000 MB per second is not the fastest although it's what I have at the moment as my main drive as my secondary drive. I have 3600 MB

[@smiteriuszryceriusz1258]

ok u record by this card but what is the console what u play ?

[@RetroRGB]

I used a RetroTINK 4K to record the MiSTer's HDMI Direct Video output, for the cleanest signal possible: kzbin.info/www/bejne/e2TIoWmprJWWbrs kzbin.info/www/bejne/fGbCkKaeebmMg7M

[@yeolemillinial8295]

you can finally capture scanlines. that was the dream right. so whats next?

[@RetroRGB]

Lossless 4k120 with HDR :)

[@OpticalHaze]

but can it handle Snes on OSSC 5x ? :)