How to Get Useful Feedback and Learning to Self Critique - Draftsmen S2E29

[@Draftsmen]

What are some useful critiques you’ve received about your work that made you a better artist?

[@specialzeroH8]

Be more mindful about what marks you put on your work and do it with intention

[@JefferyDavisJr.]

"It stinks"

[@chayemor]

I haven't received many, but the ones that have helped me the most have been those from Nathan Fowkes. He was able to quickly pin point where the image failed, but what was truly helpful was the subsequent explanation as to why it didn't work, and how to fix it. That combo of why and how to fix, that was the magic for me. And then he proceeded to do a paint over. It's been almost a year since I was lucky enough to take his class, and I can still hear him when I paint "contrast, contrast, watch out for contrast". xD

[@varunsingh2052]

Keep less details in shadows, better shape design equals better painting, always stabilize the head of a portrait on a bust

[@ishheredia9626]

the idea of line economy. basically - use less lines, make sure each one has a purpose

[@crowofcainhurst]

This podcast is the breath of my life.

[@fantomlimb5008]

Haha I thought you said "beneath my life" at first and I was like why did Stan like this lol

[@KitKatWiffleBallBat]

I welcome it as well. Though it's not necessary for my survival, I feel it nourishes a part of me that is alien even to myself.

[@didi1406]

I recently bought Marshall's 1994 Perspective classes. I was born in '92. Discovering Marshall (And Proko!) has been such a blessing. Hope he's doing all he can so he can live forever for the many millennial artists squashed by STEM education that are just discovering him!

[@KitKatWiffleBallBat]

Muahahaha, you're almost 30! 😈 *SNIFF* I am 30. 😢 (Born 1990.)

[@didi1406]

@@KitKatWiffleBallBat I'll consider myself old when I start getting wrinkles :) millennials stay young forever!

[@KitKatWiffleBallBat]

@@didi1406 Gurrrl! You know it! 🤗😊😁

[@drdoolittle8396]

so many scam art schools out there - you're better off with a STEM degree no matter what you do

[@ishheredia9626]

Recovering from covid and west Nile and I've been told it's going to take double digits months to start feeling ok. This podcast is a proverbial lighthouse for me right now. Hope season 2 never ends.

[@Draftsmen]

Hope you feel better soon! Season 2 will have to end at some point so we can start season 3, but that won't happen until we get to December.

[@philosophyfulmination8031]

Yeah bro that lost of Smell and Taste is a pain too makes you feel more like a zombie😭

[@varunsingh2052]

You got this 👍

[@domi1644]

Can I point out how much I appreciate your lighting choices for your podcast. Every episode, both of your lighting is so perfect for sketch reference. I try to get better at sketching a moving subject. And the podcast is so entertaining, and provides me the perfect reference for practice. Thanks guys !

[@lukemason_devilforce]

I look forward to this podcast every week. 🤘🏻🤘🏻🤘🏻

[@z4lm276]

yeah me too

[@KoongYe]

The question is: are we gonna get a compilations of Marshall's singing in the future?

[@VS-jl1zw]

Congratulations on your daughter Mr. Stan!

[@Draftsmen]

Thanks!

[@VS-jl1zw]

So happy for you!

[@softglow0922]

Charlie, I was waiting for you to put the hats on Marshall's head! (Really appreciate all the effort you put into editing btw so we don't miss a single reference. It's so helpful!)

[@KitKatWiffleBallBat]

Marshall has a glorious beard...and he literally said it was glorious as I wrote this...oh my goodness.

[@spencerjonesvo3973]

The randomness of the slippery seals lmaooooo 🤣🤣🤣 may Marshall live forever.

[@TaterProduction]

Wow this is probably one of the best episodes if not the best episode yet!!!! Marshall’s talk on the hats was incredible.

[@odettewaanders1895]

Great practical advice, thank you. A not-to-be-missed episode to revisit regularly!

[@razahaiderali9577]

Marshall is a treasure.

[@marisolmercado5291]

What a helpful episode!! Thank you! I love how y’all use different sources of information to share with us. Love this podcast!!

[@torbjornkallstrom2316]

This is interesting, because I was once given the advice to not ask specific questions about a piece up for critique bc that might prep the viewer to miss out on other important things in the piece that need critiquing.

[@greatwhitesufi]

Literally just started listening to ALL the podcasts last week to submit a comic book for a competition. And NOW THERE'S ANOTHER EP. What a blessing thrust unto me.

[@eddychen8959]

Yes

[@Draftsmen]

Glad we could deliver! Good luck with your entry.

[@greatwhitesufi]

@@Draftsmen thanks so much.

[@Will-o-Wisp]

I would say probably the most helpful critique methods is from my professor Jay the “I like,I like, I wonder” pointing out two aspects that you like and leaving with an I wonder allowing you to give feedback while leaving it open enough and free enough to allow the fellow creative to think about what they could do to change the piece without outright saying “you messed this up” for example I like how you composed this, I like your solid understanding of anatomy, I wonder what the piece would look like if you implemented a different inking method and changed the line weight in the piece

[@chrisilverlace]

Bravo Marshall! your "hat system" is excellent. It is important to take time to judge oneself (what are we trying to achieve?) before asking for others' critiques. Each piece should be looked from a different angle.

[@simpleclonetrooper2740]

I can listen to Marshall for hours he's so wise.

[@obsidanite135]

Hey Stan and Marshall! Great episode, love your content. I'm not sure if you've done an episode on this yet or not but I'd be interested to hear what you have to say to people who know they want to be an artist/draw for life but are struggling to figure out what type of art they want to do most. Ever since I was a kid I knew I wanted to do art for the rest of my life, but recently I've noticed that because I don't know whether I want to be a concept artist, illustrator, comic book artist, etc., my art feels directionless, pointless and empty. It also makes it very hard to know what to study and how to direct myself. I would love to hear what anyone in the comments or you guys have to say on this topic as I have been struggling with this lack of direction for longer than I would like to admit now. thank you for the great content, and I look forward to future episodes!

[@akashbart2765]

+1 to this. I am currently watching the episodes from Season 1, so there might be an episode on this topic -- but, this is a great topic.

[@kookie6333]

When I was in my last year of high school I handed up my work to the teacher who then picked it up (I was drawing studio ghibli like characters at the time) and told the class that it was not a good example, I was very embarrassed. The next day she brought me into her office and told me never to draw again, and that I should do photography for my next project instead. I really contemplated it and would never draw in class, just do written work. I thought she was out to get me haha. Now 3 years have gone by and I am doing an art course. I am glad I did not quit, and although it still makes me feel bad, I believe her comments helped me focus on my work a lot more and have nothing against her. 🤧🤧Thanks guys, great episode!

[@ellegriffiths4955]

Great episode - thank you. In terms of kindergarten discussion I think the comparison between Steiner & Montessori education is very relevant here.

[@mirtaxiomelyssandin2001]

Marshall, I'm on that both camp on composition!! Thank you both for this podcast and all the good work behind every episode

[@akashbart2765]

Another amazing episode!!!! And side note: Anyone else feels Marshall and Stan could pull off a perfect Rick and Morty cosplay? 😅😝😅 Marshall's face will need some work to fit Rick's but Stan's face is perfect for Morty look 😅

[@_jzahmay]

Oh my gosh you brought me back to my drama/theater warm up days in high school!

[@OrangeGordon]

One of the best critiques I've ever gotten was quite subjective to say the least. I was drawing with mainly my white hat on (objective) because I've always believed in the scientific method and that there was no place to involve feelings with improvement. I was told to paint the silence of the trees and be mindful of my state of learning. In terms of figure drawing, to engage with the model and think about what they are thinking. On occasion, I was even told not to look at the paper when drawing! I've spent many months thinking about what my instructor said and after reading the book "mastery" by Robert Greene after your guys' recommendation I wanted to "submit" to his words and dive fully into his critique. It's only been a year since I've heard of his critique and I've learned that mindfulness is a vastly underrated "fundamental". To be aware of your observations and to think in the moment of what you are doing with the pencil on paper. It's really taught me to think about the process rather than the product and has made learning fundamentals so much more enjoyable. It's a great message that I've found bleeding into pretty much every aspect of my life! Definitely life changing.

[@serlymarton]

thank you for another great episode and also for the time stamps added nowadays!

[@bugrilyus]

23:22 PBL is actually "Problem Based Learning"

[@galarog5598]

01:20 How to Get Useful Feedback : 1.Take good photos of your drawing 2.Choose specific and relevant questions - What were you hoping to achieve ? What were you struggling with? What are your big picture goals? Who are your art parents? How long have you been practicing this form of art?

[@galarog5598]

SO excited for the Proko drawing basics course!

[@ayaQq]

love you guys

[@trent797]

I agree 1000% that you need to give students clear assignments. Even if it is as obvious as “Draw 5 heads this week”. It is a call to action. Even the most dedicated students will disregard some information if there isn’t a reason to do it.

[@cickovic91]

Would like to add for social media critique of others. More i observe i see that begginers are never really a target of people that can give good points, critique. I tested myself as an example, the more I practice the more I gain in quality of the drawing or what ever the more chances i have to receive critique. It can be discouraging because we all need more help in the beginning but maybe this can help someone out there starting out. Do not hope much if you want good critique give your best work for higher chances of getting it. Social medias are a little twisted (to say it nicely).

[@ArningEchanoPH]

We should thank the universe for being able to walk this earth in the same timeline as Marshall and Proko!

[@Billy.Bacsko]

I am a student at Marc Brunet's online Artschool and he gives his whole class a weekly critique for each student that goes from 4 to 6 hours. He is amazingly hard working, and gives each student a personal touch. His YT channel has examples of his weekly classes.

[@KingFishStudios]

Hey Marshall! Here’s an opener - 🎶 Silly Sally sells seashells by the seashore. 🎵 You guys are great!

[@theleechqueen]

Where can I suggest ideas for future podcasts? I was thinking it would be nice to have a podcast on what to do when you just can't committ to an idea or come up with one you think is good. Suggestions for overcoming that problem. For some reason I think coming up with an idea for what to draw and how is the most challenging thing for me right now, and I consider myself somehwat close to advanced (at least I don't struggle with fundamental concepts as much anymore).

[@valentine12]

I listen to this while I'm at work and I'm bummed I caught up to the current podcast. D:

[@Alarios711]

38:00 oh god yes, it is the most important thing i learned. It's so effing painful, when you start, to just bin a half-done painting and start anew, but it's the most important thing you can do to actually improve. Learn to let go of a bad piece and keep only the positive aspects to inject them in your next painting. Same with sketching; just stop tweaking, do another one.

[@z1522]

8:30 in - asking a student how they think they did, in specifics, where did they feel the work is weakest, is very useful to develop self-awareness about one's work from a detached perspective. Insecurity can lead to misguided defensiveness, rationalizing to justify something, when deep down you know it's not working; carried to the extreme, all sorts of BS can be generated, convincing yourself that poor technique, or inaccurate proportions, or clumsy lines, or ambiguous shading is all part of your "artistic expression." A student asking "is anything wrong with it?" without giving info about intent opens the door for microanalysis that can go on forever - Hopper's figures look wooden and generic; Renoir's people have no bone structure. You have to be listening to what viewers sense from your works, not what they say to please you; if they sense happiness when you wanted to evoke sadness, you have work to do.

[@karenichiwa]

Appreciate Compliments Accept critiques

[@jhonzetzet347]

damn i remember a thing that changed my life was when i thought i did so well on this still life, i had just transitioned from architecture class to plastic arts, i thought i did well i was certain i would get a ten, i remember what the teacher said, she just said this would be worth a 7-8, i stood there for a sec frozen then i asked why she responded "form is on point shading is great proportions are really good, but thats not what i told you to draw, look at the color." then she pointed out the fact that even though the shading was good in showing form, all of the objects were shaded as if they were all the same color, she showed me just how blatantly oblivious i was to the bigger picture in one short frase.

[@joelaguilarfuentes8758]

I watched the Proko Figure Drawing Critiques 2 - Structure Basics 16 Oct 2013 and look what I found 01:34 Stan: You told me that you are also working on a little series for perspective. Marshall: I am. Stan: When is that gonna come out? Marshall: That could come out a year from now...

[@TaterProduction]

Hahahahahah got em 💥

[@rudytaliani635]

I love GK Chesterton :)

[@mouseboy507]

Best art critique ive ever gotten was ''Get your ass to the fundamentals''

[@hemantkumar1096]

I'm supposed to be studying for my exam! 😂😂😂

[@XrQ0000000a]

Any recommended Community, Discord or Forum to get anatomy Feedback?

[@lisafred1362]

The worst critique was from a teacher who insisted the class had a pencil sharpened 4" long. We had to have 5 spare ones in case any broke. He showed me how to sharpen the pencil so that was good, but I just hated the sharpening process. I brought pencils sharpened by a machine and that made him really angry. It was a criteria of his class that I had this LONG pencil lead. He said my assigment was to go home and sharpen 20 pencils each day until I got it. He said sharpening pencils is meditative and fun.. and it will become both for me too. It didn't. I dreaded his class and him yelling if I didn't have those pencils. I gave up art class because of all the tension being afraid of being yelled at if my pencil arsenal was not in order. Now I draw at home every day with a mechanical pencil and I love drawing. Is it too much to ask to let the student work with the pencil they like if it keeps them interested in drawing? Okay, I won't get shading like his, but that is okay. At least I look forward to drawing. I hate a lot of graphite all over my hands.. I hate gloves.. the mechanical pencil feels cleaner. Best critique was from a teacher who said: Oh your drawings are a lot like Degas... go look him up. I know it was a bunch of BS because every student had someone they were compared to and looked that person up lol! But, it was kind of flattering.. and got me curious to see that person's art. Another teacher in life drawing would correct your drawing with tracing paper.. NOT DRAW ALL OVER YOUR DRAWING. That was very thoughtful. Not everyone wants the teacher to correct... they want to correct it themselves. He would always recommend a youtube channel... or a book. He even recommended seeing Proko for one problem I had. So useful. I never learn when someone just draws the nose correct over my nose. Find me a way I can learn noses better. Is it perspective, the values? Give me a tool I can use for my next nose.

[@leandrorobles]

Para os Br: Marshall no começo deu um aviso digno de Projeto Humanos - Caso Evandro: "Se você não ouviu o episódio anterior, pare, volte, e ouça em sequência".

[@acxe212]

Any tips to have an Glorius beard like marshall?

[@infernogirl]

I wish proko had a discord channel ngl

[@FiRezfps]

8:50 i think he should be more charitable with people who cannot pinpoint what is wrong with their work. I draw for a living and it is extremely easy for me to see issues with the works of others not so much with my own

[@davidjohn6253]

How do you guys make these thumbnails😂

[@briangans575]

Keep that beard going Marshall.

[@refraincomewhatmay8203]

27:15

[@specialzeroH8]

First!

[@specialzeroH8]

Lol damn not first

[@eddychen8959]

Lol

[@heyitsquigly]

anyone else find it funny that Marshall's preferred thinking hats correspond to the colors of the US flag? 🇺🇸 😂

[@hackerman4766]

its interesting how the hats compare to cognitive functions

[@Schaggar]

666th view... Spooky since Marshall starts singing about 6 seals

[@AnaEdigaryan]

Hi Marshal, hi Stan, are you open to give feedback to art projects? Animation, drawings in my case. Thank you.

[@holadonkey]

while shooting you should be drawing at the same time . that would be good discipline and exampling an important habit . that's for both of you Marshall and Stan . great lecture

[@george5548-x6k]

Marshall does proko pay you to be in this podcast.