How To Kill an MMO in 1 Day

[@IdylOnTV]

Get up to 26% off on Displate during their Christmas sale using my link displate.com/?art=674dda42c89c0 and use my discount code 'IDYL'! Check them out today and don't miss out! Remember guys, 1 like = 1 evolution to your favorite game

[@TreeFrogOnATree]

dis plate more like dis nuts

[@roxaskinghearts]

say some event makes most of osrs players move games for a bit whos to say they wont do the same to osrs

[@J3dotgg]

As someone that has actively kept playing throughout EOC and also actively plays oldschool (maxed on both varieties of the game with lots of pvm hours in both), I do feel like there is a lot of misinformation about EOC in the section explaining what changed. Special attackes were not decoupled, they were outright removed and the abilities did not outright copy/paste the specs. Special attacks were also later added back to these weapons in their original form (too little too late ofc). Adding to this, not all gear offers lifepoint bonuses in EOC, only tank gear does. And tank gear bar some exceptions is completely useless in most scenarios. The reason pures became obsolete was not the lifepoint changes, it is that the formula for combat was completely rewritten giving a much higher weighting to defence/hp and only factoring in your highest style aligned damage skill. This formula change on top of how utterly broken eoc is (and was) in pvp broke all reasons to build a pure account. Also, the statement that eoc made "every aspect of the game more hardcore" is also objectively false. Another reason EOC was seen as controversial was that it actually made a lot of skilling methods MORE AFK. The actionbar can for example be used to drop items whilst gathering without interrupting the gathering action by merely holding down a button, this rubbed a lot of skillers the wrong way at the time after having spent lots of hours mousekey (or manual) dropping their fish. Don't get me wrong, I agree with a lot of what you are saying in this video, but the description of the sentiment and the facts of the time in 2012 don't ring true to me.

[@fallenone4108]

As someone who only dipped my toes into I can't agree with you. Back during that time there was a lot a misinformation going around is something I can agree with..... but that was part of the issue. No one knew what the hell was going on and people who didn't want/like the change, like myself, just didn't give it the time of day. While you ended up liking it and stuck with it most people just left because of the massive changes and not knowing about any of it. You also have to remember back in those days Jagex told us nothing but what they wanted to and they didn't give much other then here's the changes figure it out.

[@lordfizzz]

Appreciate your perspective having maxed both games

[@J3dotgg]

@@fallenone4108 Oh for sure, and don't get me wrong I absoletely did not like eoc combat for a long time after it released. I just spent the first year or so abusing the action bar for skilling for the most part whilst jagex ran back and attempted to fix their shit. Especially slayer was dogshit until malevolence and later revolution came about. The fallout was felt for sure though, I was at the helm of a big clan at the time and we purged about 200 inactive accounts (roughly half of the clan) after the first year of EOC. Everyone had their own reasons for leaving at the end of the day.

[@heyday1233]

It feels like you've missed the point with the special attack section, the complaint made in the video was that they killed special attack weapon costs and the outright use of them weapons by removing the special attack system, and adding it as an ability. Which, is what you seem to agree with? Also the "adding it back later" doesn't matter, it's not about the current state of EoC, you can't cover up the UPDATE and a critique of that update with the defence of "oh it was fixed later"

[@TigerFangRS]

This

[@Wizurdous]

blows my mind that an update can lose you half the playerbase and you dont just immediately undo it?

[@Webmaster4531]

I wonder what's going to happen to your mind when I tell you they didn't even back up the game to be able to undo it.

[@minoritymind]

​@@Webmaster4531 Guess you killed him...

[@arthas236]

Too much ego at play-it's the curse of successful gaming companies. They start believing they know what players want better than the players themselves. It's the classic 'You think you do, but you don't' mindset.

[@SelectKiko]

I dont think jagex had ever rolled back an update at that point

[@shaneroberts9702]

Yep, and in a bit sailing will do the same thing to old school... Rip my favorite game

[@carlossandoval6940]

Anyone remember when the tutorial was changed to a lair defending against a dragon in lumb? Or im i crazy?

[@trechubet1555]

Round the time I created my dh pure

[@VTsiFanfic]

You fought a dragon in the tutorial? All I had were rats lol.

[@jeromy3848]

it was interesting, and I was confused after coming back after remembering that and noticed it wasn't there anymore.

[@Neuhier]

You're absolutely right, that tutorial did indeed exist

[@ixskill0z]

Yeah i remember this.

[@BraerE]

The weight of being President of MMORPGs is taking its toll as Idyl progressively loses more of his torso to green screen with every video

[@MimzieMalley]

Soon he will just be a set of eyes 👀

[@HavocParadox]

So as someone that was a beta tester for Eoc and earned the Gamebreaker title for my feedback during the Eoc beta.. I will 100% say.. jagex ignored a lot of the concerns of the people that gave feedback.. As soon as they announced the release date of Eoc All and i mean ALL of the other people that would later be given the gamebreaker title begged jagex not to release the Eoc in the state it was in.

[@Clawdragoons]

I remember testing out the beta and my thought was "this is an interesting skeleton, maybe once they flesh it out and fix the problems in the however many years before this gets released, it'll be in good shape." When they were like "okay great it's being added to the game now", I swear I was stunned. Like, it did not occur to me that this was supposed to be the finished product. I know they called it a "beta" but between how it felt and how quickly things were moving... it did not seem plausible that they actually MEANT beta. Surely it was an alpha, right? But no. I didn't actually quit when EoC came out though. I gave up on combat and kept at skilling. It was eventually the MTX shenanigans that were too much for me and made the game miserable.

[@mwithz]

I'm sort of disappointed? I was expecting an actual retrospective but it felt like you had a narrative from the get go of how you wanted to storyboard this video. Understandable since you are a fan of Old School RuneScape but I expected a deeper analysis of the Combat mechanics in current RuneScape 3 or even more analysis of the key issues of the Combat post EOC release rather than just surface level wiki research and showcasing the tutorial combat system. I thought when you explained The Inferno you would showcase RuneScape 3's equivalent in the Zuk encounter but you didn't since you clearly had a narrative you wanted to explain. Either way solid video but you should've also gone into depth about RuneScape Classic Combat transition to RS2 Combat too if you were going to cover this topic. I know I am biased to RS3 btw but I've played through all 3 iterations so it felt quite incomplete especially with how current RS3 combat works towards the end game and the ignoring of Classic's combat system.

[@heyday1233]

I mean you went into this video knowing he prefers OSRS. It was objectively bad, objectively the majority of the player base didn't want it and actively revolted against it. Expecting there not to be bias is kinda on you brother Im not saying the actual combat system is objectively bad, but the update, was. Also it's about the update from what I can tell, not the current state of rs3

[@mwithz]

@@heyday1233 I was expecting a retrospection based off the title to be honest. Idyl's pretty good at looking at the bigger picture of MMO games and I was expecting quite a bit of solid research on the subject matter. Either way I hope he comes back to the subject since I really enjoy the way he depicts and narrates his videos generally and I think he can make a much better video on this subject.

[@bolo6062]

@@mwithz He has a hate-boner for RS3 and it's clear whenever he brings it up. My expectation were low and yet I was still disappointed.

[@mwithz]

@@bolo6062 I'm fine with the hate since some people really love certain eras of RuneScape and I honestly love seeing people have passion about it. I just wanted a solid analysis since I've sort of gotten use to Idyl making quality videos and I was disappointed with this one unfortunately...

[@Webmaster4531]

Why did you expect someone to play a game they hate all the way to zuk? Most people aren't like me. 😭 If I had a new computer I would totally make a takedown of RS3.

[@MetaFrostyy]

I think it's a little disingenuous to suggest that RS3 could have done combat the way OSRS did. Oldschool has the benefit of its entire existence being in the context of remaining in the limitations of the original game. The main game ALWAYS tried to push the limits and evolve, so without the hindsight we have, the logic that drove the update made a lot of sense. Personally though I like RS3's combat a lot more, so even if it had growing pains and could've been done better to begin with, I think it was the right decision. Plus, oldschool would never exist in its current state had it not happened. Seems like a win in the end for everyone.

[@Gobble-mike-hawk]

"Yeah our town got nuked but the crater has some flowers growing on it so it's ok". Why would anyone play RS3 instead of WoW, FF14, GW2 or even ESO (lmao) if they want to play a hotbar MMO? Also, they didn't know that they had a backup of OSRS in case the game was hemorrhaging players and still they went on with EoC. Implying that EoC was a good thing is mental. Without OSRS, RS3 wouldn't exist anymore.

[@Jeffrey-x6q]

@@Gobble-mike-hawkhave u tried it? I play it and its good

[@ioverslept.]

​@@Gobble-mike-hawkdumbest thing ive read today

[@YoungLiam74]

@@Gobble-mike-hawk That's so fucking brain dead it's ridiculous. The game survives in spite of OSRS.

[@WH40KHero]

@@Gobble-mike-hawk Because unlike in WoW, FF14, GW2 and ESO in RS3 you are far less limited by how you want or need to play. You don't have a strict class that you select upon character creation, you can switch it up if you like anytime you want. I don't have to make a different character and play through the game again just because i feel like doing magic today rather then melee, or vice versa.

[@jaguarsabre]

Love how the B-roll for someone who has never played runescape is just a guy outside exercising, too accurate lol

[@Trevorkahn101]

Omg the "Goodbye to a world" insert at the end of SWG hit me so hard as a massive Porter fan. Well played sir that's why your channel is incredible.

[@ccakaccakaccakacc]

god it brought me back to that stream he did all those years ago

[@TrKeRo]

Came to the comments just for this ❤

[@arthas236]

it's the curse of successful gaming companies. They start believing they know what players want better than the players themselves. It's the classic 'You think you do, but you don't' mindset.

[@ziptink1710]

RS3 without all of the gambling is actually good. I’m on OSRS now, but only after I achieved some things on my 20yo account that I always wanted to.

[@yumivt]

me pausing the video and checking the timestamps to see if this is a starwars galaxies video: is this rly abt runescape? the timestamps: this isn't a star wars galaxies video

[@CardinalsOSRS]

I wish more people tried RS3 Ironman. It’s actually really good. I picked it up a few months ago and I’m now playing actively almost every day. -your friendly decade long OSRS player

[@BcuzIC4n]

This 20 year RS3 main appreciates you

[@bransonallen2925]

RS3 Ironman is how the game should be played, bar none.

[@Mr15moss]

nah im good

[@quarkers6096]

Underrated comment. Nearly maxed main on osrs gave rs3 ironman a try after some harassment from a friend and it's surprisingly good. Haven't played osrs in a few months.

[@themosthighvaluemaninthega9048]

Nice try, Jagex. I'm not falling for that one.

[@TheMrFancyKiwi]

I miss how comically overpowered Dharoks was during the EoC beta

[@TigerFangRS]

A bit of misinformation on the exact changes that happened on EOC drop, but yeah EOC on release was pretty fuckn trash. They have made sooo many changes to make RS3 Combat so much more rewarding now though, but yeah for the first few years of rs3, it was really really rough. Now the main issue is MTX and I think rs3 Combat is fine. Great Video though still.

[@Clawdragoons]

I stuck around after EoC, just, mostly skilling rather than doing combat since I was max combat anyway, until the MTX got so obnoxious that I quit. Honestly, if they hadn't started up all that MTX nonsense I might have given combat another shot eventually and I might be an ongoing RS3 player. The two things together are what really killed it for me.

[@Mikerich_94]

"we do what millionaires do...we get assassinated" LOL Made me check the upload date I don't remember the EoC abilities being leaked a year prior too. Good info

[@justinmetcalfe2259]

Babe wake up new Idyl just dropped

[@wvvwwvwvv]

"Really!? Move fleshlight, i gotta turn my computer on!" 🤣

[@blueregiment]

Yoo Porter Robinson in the outro? Didnt know Idyl was a man of culture!

[@skateruwu]

You cannot just declare yourself the President of MMOs, we elected Josh Strife Hayes!

[@jackwolstenholme8213]

I feel like 2010-2012 was peak RS2.

[@mpg272727]

Honestly RS3 just after summoning but before EOC and MTX was pretty good and underrated. For some reason some seem to hate it mind, never really understood why. Other than people moaning about claws and torva which is odd as those same people later demanded the same be added to old school!

[@SkedgySky]

Nah. 2005 to 2007 was peak.

[@belstar1128]

i am not sure i do think they wee on the right track in 2011 undoing a lot of bad things from the previous years but 2010 was bad and 2012 too

[@UnOrdelyConduct]

Damn Idyl saying dungeoneering is just bad makes me feel sad

[@abposrs]

Yea I disagree with Idyl on that one, and thats fine.. its mostly a matter of preference at the end of the day

[@omegahaxors9-11]

Nah it's bad. Tons of horrible design, most of it intentional. You going to tell me waiting for a golem to SLOWLY walk around a circle so they can open the door AT THE OTHER END OF THE ROOM is acceptable game design? Don't even get me started on rushing: Take all the pacing problems of DG and amplify it by 1,000,000,000.

[@Dustpetro]

As someone who's maxed a main and iron on rs3, all I will say is that I'm overjoyed that you can pay people to run dung floors and irons can group with other irons now. Dungeoneering is just as bad as agility

[@rsdudetsom]

Anyone who thinks dungeoneering is fun never got 99 let alone 120

[@NanosoftRussia]

It wasnt bad if he had friends

[@tommytwos5933]

Runescape since 2004 has been the most amazing experience ever. I left my maxed account when this was released. I was top 8 in Runecrafting since 2007 and dedicated my teenage life and early adulthood to this game. The EOC was enough to make me walk away and not return until OSRS was introduced. Still hesitant to spend too much time into OSRS due to trust issues with Jagex. Mod Mark was hated and despised before EOC, this tipped the scales and he has been hated internationally ever since. Absolute mug.

[@nunyabiness181]

I was here back when this video was a calming retrospective.

[@zacharybryant3865]

Oh no… SWG in the opener. Don’t make me jump back on the emu… no… I must resist…

[@ariesthagemini6526]

Rs3 is not ugly and eoc has turned into something truly unique. What holds it back now is mtx and cosmetics. Rs3 arguably has the better end game and graphics may not be important but rs3 is fucking beautiful idc

[@mehiskortel6435]

Rs3's combat is still massively flawed. The tick system isnt meant for abilities and flashy dashes. Necromancy shows that the 3 old combat styles are filled with useless fluff. The amount of dead content in general is unrivaled. And to top it all off the graphics and art style is awful, with the much required player model update getting axed. No wonder new players don't stick around.

[@RyuLightorb]

@@mehiskortel6435 i mean both osrs and rs3 are flawed games thats the charm

[@NanosoftRussia]

I have seen many areas and they ruined quite a lot by replacing RS2 HD graphics into bland Wow-esque ugly mess

[@Kajj94]

The current state of the game as of posting this, EoC has let so much new stuff be able to happen in the game. There are more mechanics to fights, raids, and other bosses. Yes i know OS also has these things but its completely different. When doing bosses now I have to use abilities to block stuns, mitigate damage, switch aggro between people or many, many other things to allow playing the fights properly to offer a more rewarding experience. The way it was implemented wasn't the way they should have done it and tested it a lot more then they did. So many people shit on this update and i don't disagree with them. When EoC was released was an absolute disaster but I encourage people to give it a shot in its current state. They don't penalize you vs creatures of weaker types, special attacks are now back with weapons and a core part of pvm and the XP penalty is no longer there. All of the issues that it started with (and i am not defending it, they needed to really sit back and take the time to figure this out better) are resolved in a gameplay sense. End game PvM is a very fun experience and not something i plan on stopping. I feel if they want people to come back to the game they need to solve the issues that OS has solved with RuneLite but not relying on a outside client to make the game better and take away the MTX or limit it to cosmetic items only. The only way i could see this working is on a set of Fresh Start servers that don't merge with the main RS3 game. Another thing is yes, OSRS has vastly more real players in the game at a time compared to RS3, but RS3 also doesn't have hugely inflated numbers due to botting issues and this is never taken into account when graphs are shown with current numbers and is always presented as "bigger number here better" and i feel a lot of context is lost in videos like these that only explain what happened 12 years ago, not what is happening now and 25 minutes isn't enough time to explain everything fully or to even give an understanding to those who have never even experienced it and are relying on the viewpoints of others that influence if they will try it or even enjoy it. However, the game is faster with leveling. The main portion of rs3 doesn't open up until later on, much like OS, but they made it easier to get into those higher level situations and get a foot in with Necromancy. I'm sure i wont be the only one saying this either but if you decide to give RS3 a shot, do it as an ironman if you don't like Treasure Hunter or the like and no mtx pops up on ironmen. (Solomon store cosmetics will show when new ones release but these do not offer any bonuses). Both versions of the game have their own things that make them enjoyable. I am pretty much maxed in rs3 and working on maxing in osrs and the only difference that i am feeling overall is the combat. Many of the training methods are exactly the same until high leveled end game and being realistic, if you enjoy the bosses in OS then you will like the ones in RS3, they are taking ideas and bosses from each other (EX: Vorkath from OS to RS3 and Araxxor from Rs3 to OS) and adding them to both games, same with weapons, they might have different names but side by side they are copies of each other that mostly do the same things with some numbers changed to make them viable for the game their in. I understand if people don't like it but the point i am trying to get across is videos like this always seem to show what happened in the past and don't give what's going on now so people seem to, for whatever reason, be under the impression that the issues at the launch of it are still present in the game today and that just simply isn't true or they shut their mind out to being open to the possibility that it has changed and are stuck with the opinions they had. If you played anytime recently and got to experience the full use of how combat abilities can be and don't like the combat that's fine and completely understandable. A lot of what I'm saying isn't directed specifically at Idyl but to a lot of the people who play RuneScape in general. I love both versions of the game, I've grown up and played RuneScape for 20 years now but we need to move on from a 12 year old update and look at what the games currently offer and what they both bring to the table, EoC didn't kill RuneScape, but if we keep letting MTX happen how it is it's going to ruin both versions.

[@L-A-C-IV]

🦀 MarkDonalds 🦀

[@hamelconsultancyllc]

Also regarding comfort game and Evolution of combat: I think a <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="61">1:1</a> can be said with forestry. Chopping trees in OSRS used to be a comfort game and chill. Forestry has made it annoying and aggressive.

[@sarumon17]

Hey idyl, just wanted to say that because of your videos I jumped into wow classic HC after only playing the game back in like 2006 for a couple months. The HC experience really encourages a huge amount of partying and friendly cooperation that I had never seen it before. Idk why I watched your videos because I never really considered myself an mmo gamer.

[@BcuzIC4n]

Oh boy, another look back on a 12 year old update that has changed, enhanced, and dare I say it, evolved considerably since it's failed release into a solid, complex, enjoyable system, I'm sure THIS video will be the one to touch on the later success of the system. Right? Right?

[@ACertainGuy0]

Surely people will stop riding the "EOC Bad" Bandwagon and now take the time to form their own opinions with calm, rational thinkin-........Does anyone hear cannons off in the distance? sounds like its coming from Falador. I wonder why?

[@GRIMHOOD99]

As someone who played RS3 from 2017-2023 yeah it got better but it is still one of the worst combat systems I have seen in an mmo after 2010s.

[@BcuzIC4n]

@@GRIMHOOD99 Sure, I'll give you that, but the OSRS "EOC bad" circlejerk refuses to acknowledge that the game has any redeemable qualities and constantly falls back on "this one update half the game's life ago was bad and now everything your game has and will ever do is also bad" and it's frustrating. I grantee the OSRS community habit of shitting on RS3 plays no small part in the lack of playerbase growth.

[@deathkingboss]

@@BcuzIC4n i mean i stil got a maxed rs3 account (did necro on release) and when i boot up the game i always ask myself the same question, why play runescape when wow has a better combat and osrs is the game i grew up with.

[@koldolmen5837]

Found the RS3 nerd

[@dawgatemybrain]

The reason why EoC failed is, they didn’t switch to WASD movement alongside it, and you had to click the abilities - no keybinds. Like, what?

[@nayuta_23]

> Competition comes and drives player to the new thing > Game changes mecanics that makes it uniques and replace them with mecanics that makes it just like the competition > Players move away from your game because it has lost its originality

[@Wierie_]

Oh boy another hot one, I would be surprised if this video actually goes against the boring mainstream narrative

[@0mn0mable]

SWG mentioned!!! Take a shot! *takes more than 1 shot*

[@bobthor9647]

With most games, if they are popular for a while, it's a success. MMOs face the unique challenge of a game that never ends- and how to keep players playing

[@thatmanonthemoon]

is that fucking runescape midi Goodbye to a World at <a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="1440">24:00</a> gonna need the link baldman

[@SuperRookie117]

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="425">7:05</a> No way he did that XD

[@DannehBoi90]

It's a little funny how one of the changes with EoC was giving monsters weaknesses, which now OSRS has. EoC did it in a way that framed it to be punishing to use the wrong style. OSRS did it in a way that frames it as a positive thing by lowering defenses against a weakness, and keeping the rest of the defenses similar. Or picking an element of magic and giving a bonus to damage and accuracy using that element.

[@Toy_ship]

Playing legacy combat mode is basically playing oldschool but with MTX 😂

[@Wierie_]

I swiped a few 99’s, hope I didn’t twist your panties

[@ginjaedgy49]

and even then you cant do alot of the endgame content in legacy mode. so it's worse

[@ioverslept.]

Except its a completely different game with over 15 years of different content??

[@mpg272727]

I don't think it was entirely the EOC that killed RS3, but also MTX. But I do feel that EOC was hated because most people liked Runescapes combat for how simple it was. That's why many played it and many now play old school. They liked the click and wait, it was different and unique to Runescape at that point. It allowed people to just relax, it was chilled. You could stick up another tab and watch KZbin or chat to friends while playing. If people wanted something more advanced and sophisticated with abilities and things that demanded your attention and such they would have played world of warcraft.

[@rorykeefe8954]

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="745">12:25</a> “And this… is to go… even further beyond!”

[@PoffleASMR]

I am friends with a few ex jagex devs and in particular one who was one of the main devs behind eoc, they said there was a whole bunch of mismanagement and alot of ideas had to be rushed and a lot of it cut because jagex wanted to hit this release date.

[@vito-kl3hb]

ive never played runescape for more than 3 hours but im checking in to listen to the presidential statement so i can have an objectively correct opinion on evolution of combat

[@Aeon_ic]

Man, I'm really mixed on these types of videos. This video does nothing to address or cover all of the fixes that Jagex did specifically to fix most of the things you mentioned in this video in a meaningful way. Without addressing that with the same depth that you did for the stuff that no longer exists, people are likely to get the impression that things are still like this and continue to hate what is currently a fun system. It just serves to divide the community more over old information that isn't relevant these days. That all being said, Jagex certainly did a controversial job when it was initially released, and a review like this is necessary for future references for big changes. I'd be hesitant to call it a retrospective though as it's still actively being used and enjoyed by a lot of people.

[@neoflogin22]

I think a big point of his video at the end was that it was too little too late even if it is good or fixed now. His premise on the video seemed to me how EOC has irreversibly changed the game and the result is a drop in player count that'll never recover despite the new system being good and there having been a second option made of OSRS. And despite both being good and pushing their limits in great ways now there's still scars of the old EOC update present in retrospective.

[@Aeon_ic]

@@neoflogin22 I'm not sure I'd say the player count drop is really all that end of the world type stuff yet. RS3 generally averages about a 1/4 the player base OSRS does on normal days as it is right now at 32k vs 125k. The data he shows is exaggerated as it includes Leagues figures, so it's not exactly a normal comparison as one is normal content vs an event. Bots are also a factor, but it's hard to get definitive figures for that for both games. I think it's generally agreed though that OSRS has a much larger bot problem than RS3 does. Either way, I do agree on the option of OSRS as it does just inherently introduce a divide in the community. A nice point in both's favor though is that membership is across both versions as RS3 membership and OSRS membership are the same and one character on one version has membership on the other at the same time, although they can't be played simultaneously.

[@Jrakula10]

i had no idea the same thing happened to starwars galaxies,

[@Colossus823]

This is a less than truthful depiction of the chain of events. EoC didn't fall out of the sky on 20/11/2012. There was an extensive beta before it, accessible to every player. Many players simply did not care to inform themselves about EoC, nor did they give EoC a proper chance. Jagex has much to blame, but the narrative that the playerbase was victimised by big bad corporation, has to stop. You can't claim you love the game and refuse to play the beta of the announced biggest update in years.

[@MaxG-jk8ty]

Micro transactions were the nail in the coffin. I was maxed in rs2 well before eoc. Everyone left because it was a slap in the face to those who put in the most time and effort. You can't just gloss over that fact.

[@rawwrrob9395]

Sure there was a beta, but it was a beta, meaning a very late build of the update, that was just shoved into the open long after they could have reasonably changed anything design-wise. It wasn't there to get player feedback on the core design, because its core systems were feature complete. It was there for bug, balance, and server stability testing. There was little communication with the community about what the changes would actully be and then suddenly: "Here's this shiny new combat system you didn't ask for that is going live whether you like it or not!" I was there when that beta launched and tested it myself. People were raging and giving extensive feedback on the forums. There were week-long ingame riots. People were even more outraged after it launched virtually unchanged from the beta. Jagex even put out a survey about the update, but all the questions were basically "How much do you like EOC?: a. I love it b. I really like it c. I like it." No real opportunity to give actual constructive feedback. I think they knew they messed up and were in over their heads, but they had just dumped millions into developing EOC and the shareholders were demanding a recovery on profits after the last disaster that was the removal of free trade and the wilderness that decimated their subscriber count. They've spent a decade fixing that awful broken system they locked themselves and their players into, when, if you just look at OSRS's success, they clearly could've just continued down the same design philosophy they had. Nearly every of Jagex's big failures could've been avoided if they just asked their players what they wanted and listened.

[@Webmaster4531]

"You can't love a combat system and refuse to play a different one." People do that all the time. You never skipped a game sequel from just word of mouth?

[@lancejohnson3278]

This is a less than truthful description of the “beta”. As mentioned above, the only thing that came from it was a bunch of screaming and crying from players begging them not to release EoC, including in game riots. Jagex shoved it in regardless of the riots.

[@Colossus823]

@@lancejohnson3278 I have done the beta extensively back in the day. It was largely empty. EoC was a change, that's what players disliked, it had nothing to do with balance. Any other change would have met the same disinterest and anger. 12 years later now, EoC works just fine. Not that the OSRS crowd actually knows.

[@omanlady123456]

making pray flicking and tick timing nearly manditory is not good gameplay it gets tedious even when your droned out doing it. The current system extremely flawed, but just not quite enough to kill it. The 2 things i want fixed int he game are making combat more engaging without having to constantly swap gear, and tick pray flick/eat .and makig skilling actually useful, since right now essentially every skill is useless other than just getting a number for a quest you want to unlock a reard from. Os needs some quality lovin

[@justinb8297]

It's what makes OSRS fun and unique, gear switching and timing makes it feel like a rhythm game and that's what people love about the combat. I love gear switching and love getting faster and faster at it, it's so addicting!!!

[@HarithBK]

i see playing around the OSRS tick rate in the same light as all the movement tech people employ in CS2 and abuse of jank in Dota 2. you take a simple game coded in a complex or limited way that leaves to poor edge cases that then abused by the player base and then added to the core gameplay loop. it is incestus and leads to the game becoming too niche and needlessly complex. it is overall less the than ideal when used too much and looped around. overall OSRS is really close to the edge of what is okay here in part simply due to how much grinding there is in the game means they can spread out all these tricks you are meant to learn before going off the deep end and earn your inferno cape.

[@UrScrewedProductions]

changing gear, moving to dodge, and pray switching is what makes the combat so fun lol. At its core osrs is a rhythm game. find the rhythm for the skill or boss youre doing.

[@justinb8297]

I don't care for the endgame content revolving around unforgiving tick perfect prayer flicking though, kind of makes the game extremely stressful and hopefully one day gear is strong enough to not have to prayer flick anymore. I remember in pre eoc when they actually fixed that so u couldn't prayer flick anymore to save prayer. They should fix it in OSRS too, it's stupid to leave an infinite prayer bug in the game.

[@omanlady123456]

@@justinb8297 yeaht he concept is unique sure, it doesnt feel good though. what actual % of players are doing the endgame content consistently? Id say it causes a lot of burn out. I dont mean to remove i mean they shoudl make it feel better.

[@trentsims]

1. What they should've done is just tweak the monster's weakness and resistance stats like they did in Old School to boost weapon/spell diversity. 2. Fix Blacksmithing and fill out gear gaps so each damage type has clear gear progression that makes sense. 3. Likely go ahead with the higher max health and health buffs on armor change that RS3 has, just perhaps tweaked to have slightly smaller numbers. This makes players less fragile in the early game since their base HP isn't 10. As well as makes higher level gear that much more impactful. 4.Then go ahead and give players a hot bar, but don't bother with new abilities. Just make it so they can put things like food, potions, prayers, special attacks, run toggle, spells, and equipment for quick switching on it. Right now, we need to use our mouse for most things, and since we need to click to move, it is very hard to stay mobile while interfacing with all of the different menus. Having all of these things on simple keybinds would've made player a lot faster, which would allow them to create more difficult content. 5. Finally, perhaps also tweak the Attack skill to interact more with Range and/or Magic. I just find it a bit odd Melee the only skill that splits accuracy and damage into two separate skills while Magic and Range do not. Also that Magic staffs require Attack to equip while range weapons do not. Maybe they could buff the damage output of stuff like Longbows and Comp bows, but make them require either Attack or Strength to use, making them more viable options, rather than just having them be worse than the faster Shortbows.

[@--Kirby--]

The fact they remodelled our characters (gloves to fingers) and gear (max cape) around the same time, and put out a beta server nobody played and then basically forced us to become the beta testers by making it go live well before it should've was beyond irritating at the time

[@MaikDreijer]

I still play RS3 and I like the combat way more than just click and flick like OSRS. Not hating on OSRS by any means but me personally I prefer RS3 combat. Y'all PVMers over there don't get mad at me cause you OSRS players have done some CRAZY shit aswell.

[@MaikDreijer]

I just realised 20% of the RS3 player base has 200M all, we might be just biased

[@darkershoresbs]

I think the sad thing is, osrs is not just click and flick. There is so much nuance in it's endgame content, from positioning, click accuracy, resource management and game knowledge surrounding equipment, which is based off a giant list of progression in quests and other content. OSRS endgame pve (stopped calling it pvm because pve is industry standard language, pvm is for people who never left Runescape) is fundamentally, a more complicated experience that takes a higher skill ceiling in order to fully enjoy. I play Rs3, and enjoy the PVE content, but the abilities themselves don't provide a nuanced approach to combat... "this is the best rotation for 2h staff" and if you go outside of that, you are wasting damage and making it harder for yourself. In OSRS, that nuance exists in the form of managing positioning and prayers, on top of game knowledge surrounding the numerous game mechanics for EACH specific boss. In Rs3, it was very easy to learn Telos, which was a little harder to me due to the power creep. And to me, that was the hardest piece of content I could find. I also found Zammy solo and Glacor to be difficult, but once learned, very easy to manage and grind out. In OSRS, every single raid, every single Inferno run, took me being at my best every single time. I wasn't just learning a thing that would become easy once I had done it fourty times, I still die after 1k raids due to many factors. OSRS endgame PVE compared to RS3, is a massive step above and has more progression tied to it, faster clicking accuracy, much more on the spot thinking required, it's a harder experience with more depth and because of that, more people striving to get better at it. And once you start getting better at OSRS PVE, it provides you with the mechanics/game knowledge required to start getting into PVP... which ends up taking much more of your time once you start enjoying it.

[@RyuLightorb]

@@darkershoresbs you put it well which is why i fucking had osrs pve with a fucking passion lol.

[@jakeblabbers]

I honestly loved the simplicity of RSC combat. I dealt with RS2. Then when they updated the combat system for combat evolved I just couldn't deal lol.

[@unbelievablegoblin]

I think EOC was an amazing update, because without it I don't think we'd appreciate OSRS the same way.

[@bodaciouschad]

Minor correction: legacy mode had no skill heals and ~60% the dps of EoC mode. All the monsters were balanced for EoC, not LM. It was pointless.

[@AmazedBunion]

i have never once heard anyone say the inferno is fun. it's way too long to be fun. the boss parts are fun but the rest is just a time waster

[@sydvicious2378]

Played original, quit with eoc, came back for OSRS to then quit again for work. Now I come back almost a decade later and wow, there is so much PVM content. It has sparked a fire in me to get my account in shape to beat these new challenges. I mainly pked back in the day, but now as an adult I find myself skilling more and wanting to do raids. Great game to play at work lol.

[@maxlevelmedia7448]

Absolutely love that you gave some love to SWG - one of my top MMOs ever. Grew up on this game.

[@chainshaw136]

Post-JTL, Pre-CU Galaxies was the most fun I've ever had with a video game.

[@richieclark528]

Nightmare clip had me dying😂😂😂

[@Santafe4115]

knowing goodbye to a world is about that game is deeeep lore gzgz

[@WreckageX]

Sir I'm going to need my money back over the whole zulrah displate advertisement picture. lmao

[@austinc2158]

EoC was probably the best thing that could have happened to Runescape. It led to an official server with very limited MTX -- OSRS. I really don't think Runescape as a whole would have such a dedicated fanbase and be continually breaking player count records if OSRS has even a fraction of the MTX in RS3. Obviously, this was all unintentional. But as a result, EoC is probably the greatest update of all time. It literally saved the game in 1 day.

[@Krome08]

One thing you didn't mention is how instating the 30 k gp trade limit destroyed the economy as well, as it severely limited how it affected what people could do with their in-game wealth. Actually, you could probably do an entire video on that concept! It destroyed wilderness/pking, which was a large part of the game for many players, and also stimulated the economy for skillers who wanted to provide mats and items for pkers.

[@xRakanishu]

I started playing Runescape in September of 2001 and I can confirm that the EoC update was the end of my adventure for quite a long time 😮‍💨

[@giltdavig2589]

try it now

[@OriginalSpire]

The legacy mode brought me back for like a few days. I really was into Puro Puro Imp hunting. When I found out that binds/entangle were melee range, I stopped.

[@alastairparker2368]

my man still tryna make vids about eoc. respect

[@johnsmith-x1e7k]

The combat system is easy to learn and has a very high skill ceiling with over 10 actions possible in 0.6 seconds. Stacking damage takes practice with combos and it's possible to bluff or double bluff your enemies by gear changes.

[@Nick-ij5nt]

A lot of people still refuse to give OSRS a chance because of the combat and the graphics. EOC only failed because it replaced what everyone already liked. If RS1 and RS2 didn't exist and RS3 was released as it was I bet it would've been received pretty positively. I genuinely believe that if someone created a game like OSRS but with modern graphics and combat then it would be the biggest mmo ever made.

[@TwoCentReview]

That weakness system sounds horrible. Weakness should be something where you get a damage bonus, not punishing all other forms of damage.

[@maracullis4965]

Love your humor man. Doesn’t matter what game you are talking about, always entertaining to watch.

[@matte5705]

It is said that one day the green screen suit will consume him completely

[@Remianen]

This isn't a Star Wars Galaxies video, it's a Runescape video.

[@hamelconsultancyllc]

I don’t know what he would have meant besides “we get ass”. I agree with that statement on its own as well as what he might have meant

[@ArchonZach]

Wasn't star wars galaxys shut down because they were releasing swtor and didn't want to compete with it? Sorry if I'm wrong!

[@EatMyVlogs]

The Josh Strife Hayes crossover was not expected but god damn was it good.

[@Jayy9090]

EoC nowadays wouldn’t be too bad if it was done right. I think WASD movement and abilities in the world of runescape would be sick. The issue is the engine and tick based system makes the game feel too dated and holds the combat system back

[@the.dirt.man.]

Idyl has been busy. Ironic.

[@gwendeerlin]

Did you change the title of this video?? It was different 1 second ago when I clicked the link.

[@kazineverwind5267]

Let's all remember, this was AFTER the massive player rage over the removal of the wilderness and free trade. Jagex saved themselves from credit card fraud, just to jump off the cliff chasing WoW. They then broke their fall with OSRS and have been limping along on a sprained ankle since then.

[@CheckThreeTimes]

So leave my sweater on the porch 🎶

[@Unserioussam328]

old school runescape succeeding is the only part of this timeline I'm okay with so far.

[@Austinpowas]

You know what they say, "New wall, new me". Who dis?

[@MaikDreijer]

Special attacks are still attached to weapons, you still need claws to do a claws spec, you can't ags spec with a bgs etc etc, special attack is just an ability now. You can store a special attack in an Amulet however though.

[@brianjohnson1290]

I often times think about going back to RS3. I think i could relearn everything with an open mind and it seems like it would be extremely fun. The one thing that keeps me from doing that and will always make me not want to play the game is the state of Microtransactions in the game. I can ignore a lot of things, but I can't ignore a greedy company just trying to make it on MTX.

[@Aeon_ic]

Ironman mode in RS3 is just that. MTX is effectively eliminated

[@liad9852]

Ask existing users about a major product change? Idyl is a Product/UX messiah

[@amogusenjoyer]

I think what people also forget is that it really was bad at release, like much worse than it eventually got. A lot of rs3 players defend eoc and the fact that it happened ("it wasn't bad, i still have a lot of fun with it!!"), but dont seem to take into consideration that a lot of changes were either reverted or added (revolution, etc). Its now kind of ok, if we forget the fact that it is still a super odd system for a game based on such a slow game tick, but its incredible that they really tried dumping it all in basically a single game update, overnight, and completely undercooked as it was on release. It truly was a shock. Also, i remember them initially sweeping everything under the rug under the pretenses that it was a beta, yet releasing basically everything that the beta had with very minor changes.

[@priitriisman5381]

The thing with RS3 is in my opinion, is that it's just another MMO game. RS2 or OSRS had its nieche in being different and relaxing, but also challenging at times. RS3 needs your constant energy and activity to improve your character.

[@knowwhoiamyet]

I played Runescape since before the Grand Exchange was a thing. I don't remember the year, but it had to have been at least 19 or 20 years ago, I was in early middle school at the time, I believe. I loved the simplicity, and while I never played it constantly all through my life, I continuously, time after time after time found myself returning to the game, sometimes on new accounts to start the adventure over, sometimes to continue an existing account. I was never once a Member in that time, I was subsisting entirely on free to play content, and I loved it, all of it. I would have become a member if I could have, but convicing Grand Matriarch Mom to let me be a member was about as fruitful as trying to not get absolutely domed by a Dark Wizard outside of Varock at level 3. Fast forward however many years, I was itching to play the game again, having been playing games like Lord of the Rings Online, Conquer Online, and even dipping my toes into WoW once I got a taste of that sweet, sweet financial freedom. And regretting it almost immediately, that game was not for me. So, I boot up Runescape, start playing, and it's just as I remember... And then three days later, EoC hits. I log in, perplexed, confused, why does the road have gravel now, what the heck is this bar, what is going on?? "Eh. Nevermind." Haven't been back since.

[@Navonex]

"Fun" fact about old-school RS was they designed it to fail, they only gave the game a handful of devs in the beginning, but the player base played the hell out of it regardless because they hated the new system. Here's a list of "fun" facts in no particular order. They refused to undo the changes, literally talked down to the players, and despite old-school growing they pushed EOC. The update was so bad, people would rather restart the whole game, than play the game they had full 99's on. PVP in RS3 is so dead you can now opt out of it in the freaking wilderness, and they took out combat requirements for end game achievements (IRONIC) MTX became so bad, you could buy 99, so rip that accomplishment. Gold is such a joke in RS3 that even scammers don't want it. They let communities of both versions of the game become toxic as hell towards each other, the blatant favoritism, and lies. They don't make high level quests for RS3 because they butchered the story to oblivion. "New skills" are just in game mechanics to fix what they broke, and it still sucks. I could literally rant for years in how much they butchered this masterpiece of a game, only to literally go back to square one to find success they already had. This game deserved so much better.

[@zackrich3773]

What's that song during the ad from? I swear I've heard it before

[@YOUTY209]

Well I’m a lot less interested in this after that title change…

[@redchief94]

They tried to outwow wow and it ended exactly the way you'd expect playing chicken with a freight train would end. Somebody at Jagex must have really thought they were the first person to realize runescape is boring sometimes. It has to be boring sometimes! You can't chase the dragon if you're already riding it after all.

[@Clbull118]

You kinda sugarcoated RS3's decline. It wasn't just the Evolution of Combat. It was a mix of really unpopular updates like the Unbalanced Trade Limit, removal of Wilderness PKing, Summoning, Squeal of Fortune, etc. EOC was the final nail in the coffin. And also, OSRS didn't eclipse RS3 until it started getting its own dedicated content updates (originally OSRS was just going to be the game as it was in August 2007 pre God Wars dungeon, no updates and no Grand Exchange.)

[@jamesstaggs4160]

My God Galaxies was great...before they broke it. Player crafted gear, player made cities and man do I miss Krayt Dragon hunts! Took an hour to get enough people together, then a good 15-20 minutes of running across the map until you finally reach the canyon. Took another 5-20 minutes to take it down and if I got to you death came right after. The feeling of killing it though is an unmatched experience in any other game I've played. You didn't always take it down so if you did your group felt like it actually did something. Also, I don't understand how there isn't a Star Wars MMORPG that reached the heights of WoW. Galaxies could have if they didn't run everyone off with those "enhancements"

[@Gutigwolfe]

It's sad, because the combat is good now, and additions like the revolution bar, and items like agro potions, they actually made the game not only afkable again, I would argue it is more cozy and afkable now. Skills also have the option to play actively with the option to afk. Overall the game is still good, and much better than when EoC 1st released. Sadly, as mentioned, the changes that made the game good again were little too late, as even if OSRS mains had to go back to the game, majority don't want to go back and grind a account they haven't touched in years, or play a entire new account. I was one of the few that did stick with the game when EoC came out. While I didn't fully like all the changes at the time, I felt it could be worked on and made much better, which it was. Only major issue is PvP is still dead, because it just isn't fair with all the gear now and the skill ceiling for PvP being way too high for average players. It is why they eventually removed forced wildy PvP for a second time, cus no one wanted to go out there anymore. Besides that, Treasure hunter is still a big issue for many people, which I fully understand if leveling is considered a achievement to you(personally it doesn't matter to me). Overall, I just wish the game could return to at least close to, if not on par with OSRS, just doubt it will ever happen.

[@gamingtemplar9893]

Great work as always.

[@ginlock46]

When eoc added the revolution ability activation mode it fixed everything.

[@ignasdaugela1780]

<a href="#" class="seekto" data-time="678">11:18</a> HOW DARE YOU! Dungeoneering was my favorite skill! The only reason I log into my RS3 account once a year is to do dungeoneering because that's the only good thing that is left in RS3.

[@StriderRS3]

I know this might not be a popular opinion but I really like rs3 combat in its current state and looking back, I'm glad EOC has happened.

[@mafas1480]

as someone who actively plays both versions, EOC update was a total garbage and it stayed like that for years, it would have had success if it was a lot more similar to what it is now (basically hundreds of updates to balance it out atleast a little bit). but back then i feel like they had to do something, players didnt want very long boss encounters so bosses like zuk were not even considered, combat was already really strong, some of the best players were doing multiple kills a trip at nex solo like it was nothing anymore, osrs gone a different path and slowed down the progression quite a bit, they already knew what to do in order to make it last longer because they had an actual example of what will happen if combat becomes that much stronger will all the sustain in the game and so on. for comparison take Nex, in Osrs taking nex solo is one of the hardest things to do in the game, but back then it was as difficult as going to nex in leagues with all the buffs basically and solo trips were slowly becoming the norm. all in all the idea of changing the combat system was okay, their execusion of it was absolutely horrible.

[@JohnJWhite]

Hey Idyl, what is your opinion on the lost minigame, Stealing Creation? I saw a couple clips of it in the video and I miss the minigame.