How to Make a Boss Battler ► THE HOWLING ACES & the Abandonment of STRUCTURE - A Case Study

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

============================ *_IMPORTANT! Please Read for FAQ!_* ============================ Hi all, thank you so much for watching! It means a lot that you would join me in this crazy and deep game design journey. Your viewership and Liking/Commenting on the video help a ton and I greatly appreciate each one of you! This pinned comment is where I'll update with any corrections or FAQ. Such as... yes, I make a couple word slips. They're correct (and emphasized) in the subtitles, but was caught too late to fix. Also, yes, Hughes is actually pronounced differently (and strangely). It's a good thing that it doesn't affect the content. 1. *Feeling of repetition.* After some study, I now understand that the thoroughness is also being perceived as long-winded. The thoroughness includes filling in every hole and brief callbacks to ensure everyone stays on the same page. It's a balance. The thoroughness is quite unique to this channel on KZbin, so it can't go away entirely, BUT I understand I have to find that balance for you all, and also for my own sanity haha. Thank you all for being patient with my growth as a creator.

[@bedmaxy]

i feel like the secret phase was the original idea for the third phase, but they thought it didn't stand out enough in the dlc, so they changed it to what we actually got midway through, and kept the original idea for an easter egg. in my mind that explains why it's much better designed, and also why you get the pineapple ingredient from beating the boss, even though it only shows up there

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

I'm pretty sure I predict that exact thing in the video 😆 I'm glad we think alike! I didn't point out the pineapple ingredient detail though. That's a smart observation.

[@trashymc4564]

Coming back to this video after your recent cow girl video... wow I never realized how many bosses in the dlc suffer the same issues when compared to base game bosses. 1 phases with lots of just randomness, 2 phase that's heavily simplified, then a 3rd or 4th phase that builds just a bit but basically abandons everything the previous phases were building on.

[@trashymc4564]

The ice wizard is the only boss that breaks the pattern. But still has the same 3rd phase that drastically changes everything, but at least it's surrealism is grounded by the ice wizard themeing.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

I would like to eventually talk about Glumstone because that's a wild thematic and mechanical shift as well haha. But yeah, I think Mortimer at least has a narrative throughline.

[@photophone5574]

That chinook in the background makes me think of the experiment where they show people a video, and then they ask them to count how many times a ball is thrown. People end up focusing on the ball so much that they don't even notice there is a man in a gorilla suit walking around.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

That's actually a great example. Personally, I never understood not noticing the gorilla suit, but the Chinook is definitely a much more subtle version of the same thing.

[@Fluffkitscripts]

I played cuphead on switch. So what did I do when she flipped the screen? Paused, moved to handheld mode, and flipped it right back.

[@ringer1324]

Excuse me 2 and a half hours for one boss?? That’s actually amazing

[@packman2321]

This was cool to see. Howling Aces is one of my favourite bosses, but this is coming more from aesthetic and the spectacle of the third phase, so it was interesting to see it broken down in terms of game feel and structure. With regards to the screen orientation I think the increase in complexity can also be modelled by considering what elements the attack introduces outside just those on screen. Namely the controls themselves. For most of Cuphead the game controls are pretty much fixed. The player learns them early on and then that's sorted. You can even forget that the input method exists and exclude it from analysis. Flipping the screen suddenly cuts through that self-constructed wall and forces the player to start re-evaluating assumptions about things like core mechanics (falling down, pressing left to go left). I think this also brings us into conflict with our usual concepts of immersion since this would technically be 'immersion breaking' (since it forces you up one level of abstraction higher to think about the controller rather than the moves the controller represents) it could actually boost engagement by providing a massive spectacle/climax to the scene. I wonder if this problematises the metaphor of immersion (more of course than it's already problematised) but that's a whole different issue.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Spot on! The fact that it essentially forces you to relearn controls is a bigger problem than people might think. It drills all the way down to physical limitations and inputs, which is also a slowly learned skill in video games. I also agree that the spectacle and aesthetics are fantastic. That was one of the best things about the fight, for sure.

[@krishnavandewalle9459]

Holy shit. I’ve beat that level and the entire dlc, but I never noticed you could control the plane by standing on the edges

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

LOL how?! I guess that makes sense because you don't really need to control the plane after phase 1 hahaha. And I guess also phase 1 if you have Crackshot equipped.

[@cyboyentertainment92]

I love how you made a nearly 3 hour video over 1 boss fight. It’s nice you gave examples of when Cuphead did it better etc. I watched all of it! Great video.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thank you very much! You're awesome :)

[@henke37]

Elaborating on the idea of Chinook being missed: why not do the same as the comparative example? Have the main danger, Captain Pitbull, call in support, using a clear visual and audio cue that the player will notice. As for the redesign of the entire boss, I would take a cue from Gunstar Heroes, which also has a stage where the player takes on a big (space) ship. The battle pans around the ship, visiting different areas as different challenges. As such, my redesign would have the player chase down the Chinook. The first phase would be the back. The middle would be flying along the side and the final phase could be either of the existing third phases.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Great ideas! I wish I mentioned the bulldog calling in the fire hydrants. That would pair perfectly with the additional sound effects.

[@Popin49896]

so you mean like phantom express but in the air?

[@SaddieMoon]

Tbh, I never found any of Cuphead’s bosses tedious. I think it might have to do with how I mentally treat these bosses? Like I can see how these are tedious, but I can’t help but feel like I just saw these bosses in a way that prevented tedium for me. I can’t remember what the feeling was, but I swear it probably was there.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

That's great that you didn't experience tedium, and given that, I also appreciate that you still came in with an open mind!

[@forsure1234]

Good video. I think the reason you fail to see the unifying theme in the dogfight is because you took Canteen's plane for the most interesting mechanic of the fight and were disappointed when it became irrelevant in phase 2 & 3. I think the core skill and the "main character" of this fight is not controlling the plane, but is instead the "jump-roping" maneuver, as in avoiding projectiles by just jumping (or ducking), without moving laterally. Dogfight punishes the habit of players to promiscuously use unneeded horizontal and diagonal movements when avoiding projectiles and challenges them to make their evasive maneuvers more focused, well-timed, efficient, purposeful. The tiny platform of the plane and the attacks of all 3 phase are designed to make the player unlearn their muscle memory and purposefully limit their own movement. Phase 1 clues you in through the crossbones and yarn ball, introducing horizontal projectiles that you have to avoid with limited lateral room (the tennis balls confound this and forces you to move laterally). Phase 2 is admittedly a low intensity transitional phase, but it does introduce something relevant: this time the projectiles come diagonally, several may come simultaneously, and the enemies need to be aimed at on account of their varying position and smallness. In P1 & 2, jump-roping is not directly required, but horizontal movement is discouraged by the smallness and fidgetiness of Canteen's plane. Phase 3 is P1&2 restated, but the difficulty is upped and horizontal movement is punished A LOT. The lazer attack is a reiteration of phase 2: projectiles coming diagonally and/or horizontally(this time they are instantaneous rays), two rays ALWAYS come simultaneously, and the lazer guns have varying position you have to aim for. The dog bowls attack is a reiteration of phase 1: horizontal projectiles that may be avoided with jumping and ducking, comparable to crossbones and yarns, but this time they may come simultaneously. Then the screen flip is introduced, and the player's hand-eye coordination is now seriously punished if they move laterally. If they die, they get a chance to practice jump-roping in phase 1 and 2, slowly eliminating their left-right movement with each replay. The fight design does succeed in conditioning the player's mind, as clearly seen in the gameplay clips where the player give up moving left and right during phase 2 as a way to practice and warm up for phase 3. Looking at it this way, there is in fact a common thread connecting all 3 phases. Phase 1 and 2 only hints at jump-roping a a viable evasive move and gives you plenty of room for errors, while phase 3 represents the final test of that specific skill. The best part is that this is a maneuver that helps the player elsewhere, and passing this fight makes them an overall better player.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thanks for watching! I appreciate you taking the time to comment. You're awesome! I think it's only possible to see the jump-roping (limited lateral) as the core mechanic (rather than just part of a bigger core mechanic) because the plane doesn't do enough to support its role as the core mechanic. If you think about where that jump-roping mechanic comes from, it only exists because of the plane. So ultimately that jump-roping is a feature of the plane. But then you have to think about, if that jump-roping feature would be the primary function of the plane core mechanic, then why can the plane move? If repositioning the plane does nothing for 2/3 of the boss, why isn't the jump-roping mechanic emphasized instead (by using limited lateral objects that are stationary, to focus on the limited laterality)? And the jump-roping simply isn't emphasized because the means by which the mechanic manifests is through the plane which emphasizes a moveable, limited platform rather than a stationary, limited platform. This also might be a case where it's difficult to really envision the difference without seeing an example, so I hope this is making sense, but the difference between a moveable vs stationary version of a limited lateral platform really is night and day. If limited lateral was their intent, then they have to emphasize that intent. This could be as simple as having the Chinook's paws close in so the plane can't move anymore, so now it's very clear to the player that the focus and intent has shifted. As another example (that you'll see in the next video if you're interested), imagine if you get caught between two of Esther's snakes (pretend the snakes are much longer) and now you're stuck and have to engage in a limited movement space as a degree of failure for getting caught in between the snakes. Establishing and building a core mechanic requires the elements and pieces to work toward that core mechanic. And in the case of the Aces, they establish one core mechanic (the plane and its possibilities) but then seem to emphasize a different potential core mechanic (stationary limited laterality), which conflicts with the nature of the plane. (I realize that laterality means something else, but you know what I mean haha.)

[@TheLurkerFox]

TBH the Chinook screen flip would be fine, if we learned the flip mechanic in Phase 2- (Note, I started writing this before you mentioned it) Like maybe during Phase two, periodically, Canteen Hughes flips the plane in a different orientation. The Yippers don't shoot too many projectiles, so the player has enough time to get used to the controls, like "Oh it flips when I am upside down, but stays normal on the sides" or whatever. Then by the time Chinook comes in and starts flipping the screen, you already know how the plane acts under those circumstances. Also I hate those lasers, the previous two phases had nothing laser like. Coulda re-introduced the boomerang bone mechanic- Coz my ADHD brain sees those lasers and I already feel overwhelmed, without the screen being flipped. Also, the yellow lasers barely stand out on the faded green of the Chinook, which, again, my ADHD brain wants to think of it as background noise, not an active threat- Yes they sorta glow, but it feels like a horrendous eyesore to me. The yellow dogbowls arent so bad, coz that tone of yellow and thicker outline is more obvious- Blue would probably look better, as the cold cyan/blue would stand out better against the chinook. I know why yellow is used - it's one of the few colors people with vision problems see, and is often used on things like caution tape, or on grabbing platforms and things in games for visibility purposes. But for me as an artist with ADHD for whom that screen with all the movements and everything already feels a bit overwhelming (In my defense I also have a splitting headache today, so that could also add to that) the yellow adds to the clutter and doesn't telegraph well-

[@copperweave]

While I love this analysis, low key the video's tendency to repeat itself over and over invokes tedium

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Don't worry, I'm dialing back the thoroughness in the next video, coming very soon. So I'm hoping it won't be repetitive. I hope the improvement will be noticeable :)

[@jurtheorc8117]

That is a LOT of TearOfGrace clips in the beginning and it makes me glad to see.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

He's very hit or miss for me. But I think that's his goal, is to throw out stuff until he hits gold. It works perfectly for my needs haha

[@ecbrd8478]

shoutouts to whoever you've got captioning these two and a half hour long videos (especially if it's you, god forbid)

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thanks! It's me :) KZbin mostly lines up the script that I upload with the video thankfully, but I do have to go through and manually set some of them, so it does take some time.

[@Tutorllini]

Super pumped to watch this! Design Frame more like if you don't watch this video then that is a SHAME

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Haha that's very kind of you! Enjoy!

[@OverdadeiroIkarus]

Really well made but you repeat your lines too much, the first segment explaning tedium (2:41) can be straight up cut because you say It again when talking about the Boss fight (8:00), there are many more examples of that in the video

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

I appreciate the feedback! I can justify most of the video, if we were to go through it, though I'm sure it's not perfect. However, I understand that it's also important to address the *feeling* of repetition, so hopefully that naturally resolves as we work toward shorter videos, which may end up feeling better despite being less comprehensive. It's a trade-off that I think might be good for the channel. Thank you for sticking with the videos regardless and for the feedback!

[@OverdadeiroIkarus]

@@DesignFrameCaseStudies most of the other examples i said are minor, like using "tedium" too much instead off another word ir Just "It"

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

@@OverdadeiroIkarus Ah, I'd argue that contributes more to understanding compared to overusing pronouns, but it's still good for me to know for future reference. Thanks!

[@A_Surpluss_of_Stupidity]

I totally agree it was a great video but especially in the phase 2 discussion it felt like he said "this phase throws away everything from phase 1" every 30 seconds and it made me kinda zone out of the video for a bit because I wasn't learning anything new

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

@@A_Surpluss_of_Stupidity I may have gone overboard on a couple parts, with the goal of covering every possible hole. Thanks for the feedback and I'll improve even further in the next videos :)

[@CH3R.N0BY1]

im very glad he got grayfruit in the clips

[@theninjasticcheetah8874]

Hope this comment isn't too late, but I enjoy the repetition you've established in explaining your points! There's absolutely no way I can watch a video essay in one sitting, so being able to always feel brought back up to speed no matter what place I'm at in the video is nice! The Ester video feels like a substantial improvement, with how new things are being introduced and tie back into previous things (which you take less than a minute to bring back up)! I love these styles of videos, and I hope you can do more of these with the other bosses or other mechanics of the game! (Unrelated note, but Howlice Aces are definitely a top 5 when it comes to soundtrack, the tune is just so catchy!)

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thank you so much! I'm beyond happy to hear about the repetition improvements! I appreciate you :)

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

And yeah, I agree, I think the DLC soundtrack has some real boppers!

[@rianealexander6247]

I think a lot of these issues could have been alleviated if: 1) The second phase was replaced with the secret phase. 2) The screen turn was introduced by using the second phase as a way to practice the 90 degree turns, and 3) If the lasers in the third phase operated in a similar path as the lasers in the third phase of Railroad Wrath (the "Lollipop Ghouls," which I think are actually pistons, but I digress). The player would then have to use the plane's movement mechanics to avoid them.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

I would likely introduce the screen rotation even sooner, then maybe remove the screen rotation by phase 3 so that there can be a climactic finish. But I think you're still a step in the right direction! Thanks for sharing!

[@rianealexander6247]

@@DesignFrameCaseStudies I like that idea as well! Likewise.

[@ReidClayson]

I would LOVE to see your analysis of the Sans fight from Undertale

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

I'd also like to make one on Deltarune at some point :)

[@ReidClayson]

@@DesignFrameCaseStudies yes!!!

[@A_Surpluss_of_Stupidity]

I know i critiqued part of this video but that tiny criticism does in no way legitimize how little attention this video got! Its an amazing video and deserves way more veiws

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thank you so much :)

[@temtempo13]

Really interesting to see such a thorough attempt to build up a framework for analysis and design. It was great to see how much thought and effort when into an establishing a clear vocabulary and relationship between concepts before using that framework to analyze one particular sequence. While I'm of the opinion that there can never be objective rules about game design (for any general rule, there probably already exists a game which subverts it), it is really fascinating and important to try to tease out what _usually_ works, so that rules can be applied or subverted intentionally. If I ever design a game with this kind of challenge in it, I'll definitely refer back to this video to see what applies. I think an obvious way they could have integrated the secret phase better would be to have 2nd phase scale up in difficulty as each Yipper is defeated. It could probably be as simple as making the number of attacks per second scale up per defeated Yipper, so leaving one Yipper alive makes him fire constantly in a dangerous spiral pattern as he circles you. This would give players an incentive to weaken each Yipper to near-defeat before killing any of them, which in turn would guide them to notice the "black smoke" tell that signals one having low health, which in turn could let them accurately damage each Yipper to near-death without killing any, and thus let them naturally discover the secret phase. (I do think that "black smoke" counts as a good hint, if an obscure one, towards the secret phase as-is. Bosses in Cuphead generally do not have any kind of signal regarding their remaining HP. The black smoke is not immediately obvious, but could be noticed by an observant player, wondering why this one specific boss phase out of all the boss phases in the game gives the player information about a boss's remaining HP.) One minor note just in case you refer to this fight in future videos: "Hughes" is pronounced like "hues." The "g" is silent. Just thought you'd want to know! (And "zany" rhymes with "rainy", despite how it looks.)

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

"Objective rules about game design": You said it very well (and I appreciate the kind words!). I'd say there are rules, but also I treat the stuff in this video as guidelines or "principles" since they're backed by solid design but also there are other ways to structure a boss. In general, game design is a complex web, so much of it relies on context, which also makes it difficult for there to be consistent terms. I had to define my own variation of complexity and depth and such (and I also created the guidelines in the video from scratch) because I wanted to try to make it easy to understand but also the definitions can vary wildly. But anyway, I greatly appreciate your words, and I'm super glad you found it helpful! :) Yeah, I had no idea about Hughes until afterward lol. My bad.

[@mxveewz]

Awesome video! This was really fun to watch, and great insight into boss design. You explained it very clearly, it gave the vibe of a college lecture (this is a compliment). :3 I have a few points I'd like to communicate: 1) I appreciate the work you put into the subtitles: keeping them accurate, correcting mistakes in the recording, and keeping them correctly timed. I have Audio Processing Disorder, and correct subtitles make the viewing experience so much easier. There are a few times when words are italicized and the subtitles cover half the screen, or when subtitles cover some text information at the bottom of the screen. This is only a minor issue, but worth looking into to make your videos the best they can be. 2) I had no idea there even was a secret phase for this boss. I'm one of those people who only watched a playthrough and played it once myself, but I had no idea I'd missed anything based on my experience. There's no real reason for it to be hidden the way it is, we're designing a video game, not an ARG. 3) I've seen a lot of the comments criticizing length and repetition of points, and I think they're overly critical. In my opinion, it's more an issue of target audience rather than anything inherently wrong with the script or structure. While there are a few minor script changes I would make, this is overall a very clean video essay and the length is exactly what it needed to be for the level of detail you're examining. I understand how it can be perceived as long-winded, but I never had a moment where I felt like it dragged or where I got bored. One comment in particular said it felt like you thought the audience were idiots, but I never got that impression. I got the impression you were trying to be as clear as possible, avoid confusing uses of pronouns when just saying the term would suffice, and reminding the audience of key points established long ago. Since everyone has different retentions for new terms and this is a longer video, I liked the way you reestablished what a phrase meant when it became relevant again. In situations where it could be anywhere from several minutes to an nearly an hour before a concept becomes relevant again, just making sure everyone is on the same page is good practice, since you can't control how much memory a viewer has. I have also been accused of over-explaining when I'm just trying to be articulate, and improving that is just the sort of thing that develops with practice. o.o I ended up writing an essay here. Apologies if there are any spelling or grammar errors that slipped through the cracks. I looked over it several times, but I'm dyslexic and it's late so I can never be sure. Once again, I loved the video. I ended up watching this instead of studying for midterms tonight (oops .-.)

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thank you very much for the write-up! I passed this to my co-writer as well. I still need to somehow create shorter videos for my sanity and channel output, but hearing your #3 is very good to hear. So thanks! Feel free to call out subtitle mistakes for this or future videos (timestamps), if you watch them, and I'll make corrections. I wish I could handle italics better but the subtitles don't support them and italics is essential sometimes. I'm unaware of subtitles filling half the screen; sorry about that. I skim through the subtitles after youtube auto-times them and only do heavy timing edits to the clips of other youtubers and empty spaces, since youtube always gets those wrong, so it's possible I might miss something.

[@scott9064]

Haven't watched the whole video yet (one thirds in), but I really love the amount of research you did; video must have taken a lot of effort. I never knew how important Complexity, Difficulty, and Depth have to be; supporting each other for design. And I was initially confused why Cuphead's boss designs was applauded since they create frustration and seem to disregard difficulty curve/flow channel (which are guidelines, not rules admittedly), but you explained it very clearly. Weird comparison I'm doing, but I don't like Tropical Freeze's bosses. Might be because they structure their bosses like how they structure levels; training players early on with mechanics safely, then ramping the complexity/challenge of those mechanics later on (flow channel). Tropical Freeze's bosses are thst, but with no checkpoints, so the trial and error feels worse as replaying essentially the phases that teach the mechanics over and over wastes time. They have speed run strats within phases, but they're optional and (usually) harder to do, so players that aren't speedrunners might not want to put in the extra work. Sorry about the comparison, but your beginning section about Cuphead's boss design looking unfair on the outside, but twists that into brilliant game design really was great! Btw, is it your intention to censor cusses in this video? If so, then you missed one here 39:25 just pointing it out :3 I'm intrigued to watch more of the video later, and thanks for your hard work!

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thank you so much! I'm happy to hear the work was worth it :) I'm glad you were able to apply it elsewhere. I think slow-starting bosses can definitely become boring or tedious very quickly, and that would align with the idea that the early phases are the most susceptible since they're replayed more than any other phase. It's easy to think that maybe you should start easy in a boss, because that's classic tutorial design, but a boss is supposed to be a test, not a tutorial. I intentionally didn't censor a couple times because censoring ruined the impact of the moment or felt awkwardly paced. I think the best example is keeping Grayfruit's visceral "what the f-". Thanks for watching! You're awesome!

[@swan-cloud]

i think there's one guideline you missed, i don't really have a name for this one but it generally shows itself through "resource management". it's when the game has elements that make later sections of the fight easier when an earlier section is mastered, cuphead only really has one element working on this, being the health. (arguably special too but i don't think that one counts as much) you can imagine a theorical cuphead that resets health inbetween phases which could be more tedious since mastery of the earlier section does not mean any advantage for the later sections. though i think i get why you didn't add this guideline, because it's generally a broader game mechanic (such as hp) and not purely boss/level specific, either way, the howling aces doesn't have anything like this.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

That basically ties into multiple guidelines, since the arc of the boss takes that into account. That's why the decreasing complexity arc is so important, because you'll be spending more time in the early phases. And by using Early Key Learning, it allows the boss to escalate without overburdening the player. This boss is the perfect example of resetting all learning points in phase 3, which is definitely not what you wanna do.

[@Masterhitman935]

Thank you for long format video, we need more in-depth and thought provoking videos and analysis.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thank you so much for watching! I greatly appreciate it :)

[@Mr.BummyDiddles]

The Virgin Howling Aces vs. The Chad Phantom Express I thought the screen flip was perfectly fine, but only after changing R-Control to B. I assume the wording is vague so it doesn't spoil the screen flip, but obviously you could have it actually tell you what it means after said point. Maybe the devs just had some sort of "curse of knowledge" moment? The R-Control text also didn't get translated into other languages (translator notes say "DO NOT TRANSLATE"), which is probably confusing. The stuff you've said about the plane not really mattering after the first phase rings very true to me, and the second phase _is_ extremely bland; the quality of it instantly stood out to me, and they couldn't even give the dogs a more visually creative attack than just barking letters at you. I do think the plane does have a level of meaning when it comes to positioning yourself away from the lasers, though. This is less significant, but I find the way you lose control of the plane during a phase transition annoying. It's slipperier than it should be. The Chinook in the background of the first phase does have an audio cue. I'm guessing you were talking about giving it a more noticeable one? The incredibly vague (I thought the gray smoke was just a neat DLC-level detail...) secret phase should've been the second phase, really. Also, I wonder how you'll handle Mortimer Freeze. That boss is actually really consistent design-wise and a favorite of mine.

[@voch123]

Great analysis! It made me really think and change my opinion on my favorite boss fight in the game. Granted, it’s my favorite because of Canteen Hughes (I’m a sucker for overworld NPCs being in any extra Cuphead media) and the screen flip. However as you pointed out rightly, Canteen Hughes’ plane becomes obsolete after phase 1 and the screen flip is just a wow factor. Liked and subscribed! Also I was bored 4:17 4:32 6:37 1:02:39 1:03:00 1:03:01 1:03:14 1:03:40 1:05:04 1:07:07 1:07:54 1:08:05 1:10:44 1:11:11 1:11:48 1:13:44 1:16:43 2:18:23 2:18:27 2:19:15 2:21:22

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thank you so much for the kind words and for having an open mind! I appreciate you!

[@Justice_Animates]

Hi voch

[@voch123]

@@Justice_Animates Hi Justice

[@dustrose8101]

OOOOOOOO BABY WHEN DESIGN FRAME COOKS THEY ALWAYS DELIVERRRR

[@dylanotto949]

I just realized the military theme is because they use pineapple grenades which was the nickname for the Mk 2 Grenade in WWII

[@StaminaOverlook]

I'm here before you blow up, dude 😎 These deep dives are absolutely amazing, I recommended our game designer to watch them all 😊

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

I'm honored, thank you! If I see you in future videos, I'll remember that you were here before the channel blows up 🥲 Since you're a studio, shameless plug here, but hopefully I'll see your game submitted in my new consulting service! 😎 New website revamp underway as well. It looks like we're both using Carrd haha.

[@TylerO-l7l]

The main problem I have with them is that Wally warbles already does the generic sky boss theme better.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

I'd also consider Wally to be quite incohesive

[@johnnydracaena6052]

I love these vids so much!! I hope to see an analysis of the moonshine mob fight someday :0

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

I'm working on videos for other games now, but I do have first rough drafts done for most of the bosses, so I'll likely come back to it :)

[@HandleHandle145]

The third phase of this boss is my favorite because if you play on Switch you CAN LITERALLY FLIP THE SCREEN and cheat the game

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Lol yeah I think people's desire to flip their screens or their heads is also a symptom of the late-complexity problem. Thanks for sharing :)

[@Artofjoe]

Finally finished the video. Thanks, Shawn. Hope to see you again soon

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thank you very much!

[@rudolfambrozenvtuber]

Another solution to the problem: In WoW, there was a boss called the Fallen Avatar. Without going into too much detail, Fallen Avatar's gimmick is that he had one health bar across both his phases. Throughout phase one he'd be building up energy, something players could do a couple things to mitigate. Phase 2, meanwhile, had an incredibly tight damage timer as the platform was slowly broken beneath players. So the goal was to chew through as much of his health as possible in phase 1. Thing is, if a group needed to practice phase 2, they could just ignore all energy mechanics. They'd have no hope of beating the boss that run but they'd be able to reduce the time of phase 1 substantially that way and spend time learning phase 2 mechanics

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

That's fascinating. Thanks for sharing! I appreciate examples like that.

[@saitinclock238]

I really liked the comparison of Dr. Kahl's vs Cala Maria to show how well a final phase can be designed

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

I'm glad that was helpful to see! :)

[@redmagpie1761]

I'm about halfway through the video, spit balling ideas. In the Yippers phase, to make it less of a transition phase, they could have at least more than one attack. I'd have them occasionally throw pineapple shaped grenades, to fit with the item we get at the end, and have the explosions knock Canteen's plane off course. That would involve the plane into the phase, and start to familiarize the player with regaining control over the plane. I'm not sure if it'd work, but maybe defeating a Yipper could have them spiralling into Canteen's plane, and turning the plane to the side, introducing the last phase's screen turning mechanic, in a slightly slower, less intense way. I personally struggled a lot with the screen turning mechanic, i think introducing it earlier would have helped a lot of players. During phase 3, I'd have the lasers be fire hydrants instead, to be a bit more on theme. The hydrants could be telegraphed, by swelling up and having an audio cue, and then explode, adding the lid of the hydrant as another small projectile. A stream of water would functionally be the same as a laser. The spectacle of Chinook grabbing the screen would still be intact, but a bit more managable by the control change being introduced in phase 2. I will mention I really dislike the concept of the Chinook being the main focus during the entire fight, and removing the Bulldog. That would start to remove the theme of the fight, as a dogfight. To have the Chinook still have a presence, I did like the idea of having the fire hydrants more obviously telegraphed, but I'd like to have the shadow of the plane fly over the entire screen, and fire hydrant missiles coming down during this.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Yeah, the Chinook focus would be a different theme, but I like that theme better. I think the dogfight theme is only really emphasized well in the first couple phases. Studio MDHR has the tendency to cram too much stuff in so we could probably make two bosses out of Howling Aces haha. Or, really emphasize the dynamics of a dogfight, and we can do that with any of the characters, such as the Chinook becoming a more prominent and dynamic part of Phase 1 while keeping bulldog as the focus.

[@acronmd]

Mario is not a mandatory challenge because you can not engage with the content by using warp levels :P they're checkpoints

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Warp levels are secrets. They're not important to the point or the core gameplay so I didn't mention them.

[@Bluesine_R]

Sorry but I really didn't like this video. I also completely disagree with your two main claims; the fact that this boss is tedious and not thematically cohesive. I think the boss works very well thematically. The whole boss is a pun on "Dogfight", with literal dogs fighting on airplanes. The Howling Aces clearly work as a unit, and the Bulldog is clearly an important part of their group. Showing Chinook at the beginning, but having him fully attack at the end works very well with foreshadowing and escalation. The fire hydrants and dog bowls are also fun ways to incorporate the overall visual theme. Chinook firing lasers makes sense, because it's an over-the-top robotic battle machine. I don't think having the whole boss be based on Chinook would be a good idea at all, it would be much more monotonous. All bosses in Cuphead are relatively short (usually two minutes or less) and each phase has depth and a relatively high skill ceiling. This means that replaying them over and over is enjoyable, because there are lots of things where you can do better and make the phase go by even faster. When first learning a boss, it can be a good idea to equip a Heart charm so that you have more health and can make more mistakes while getting used to the boss's attack patterns and getting good practice. Would the game be better if there was a "practice mode" where you could instantly practice separate phases of each boss? Maybe, but I don't think it's that necessary, since it usually takes about one minute to get back to the phase you died in. Personally I play Cuphead with Peashooter and Coffee only, maybe sometimes Lobber, Charge or Spread if I want variety. I always try to go for S-Ranks. I think The Howling Aces is one of the best bosses in the game. If you want to actually beat the second phase optimally (with Charge and Peashooter), you have to perform very complicated movement to do so, and it feels very satisfying. You have to be mindful of the plane at all times while you're jumping and aiming for the Yankee Yippers. The third phase is even more enjoyable; you have to learn each and every laser configuration and come up with a good positioning. If you can aim for the mechanical arms with Charge and do EX attacks, you can do massive damage in a short amount of time. Same for the dog bowls, and dodging them while still doing damage is very much non-trivial and requires good manipulation of the plane so you don't fall off (you also didn't mention that the red dog bowls fall to your level and the yellow bowls hover above you). With this method my best time for the S-Rank is 1:34. I know you used Miss Chalice and Roundabout or Chaser on Regular mode for these phases, but is it anybody else's fault but yours if you choose to play in an uninteresting and unoptimal way? Just so you know, I would change S-Ranks so that you can't get the full HP bonus if you get hit and you couldn't get an S-Rank at all with Miss Chalice or Divine Relic. I would also probably triple the attack of EX moves, halve the rate that your super meter accumulates when dealing damage, and have rebalanced and much tighter par times for S-Ranks. Cuphead is a similar game to titles made by Treasure and Platinum Games, where the game is designed around the highest difficulty level, and that is the "true way to play". Games like Gunstar Heroes, Alien Soldier, Sin & Punishment, Devil May Cry 1 and Bayonetta 1 are the same way. It requires the most interesting type of decision-making and dexterity. These aren't generic western games like Call of Duty or Uncharted, where the highest difficulty is barely play-tested and is extremely unbalanced and unfun to play. I don't know where you got the idea that the complexity of boss phases should decrease the further you get to it. I think it's completely acceptable to have high complexity with later boss phases, that is completely up to the designer. You still think that depth and challenge should increase, but wouldn't that increase tedium in the exact same way if the problem is that the player has to replay earlier phases that they already beat before? The most important aspect to avoid tedium is if the player gets efficient practice, which I talked about before. With regards to Dr. Kahl's Robot, I very much like the transition phase. It requires very precise and unique movement when both trying to damage the robot head and avoid it ramming into you. There's nothing wrong with having shorter transition phases in bosses if they have their own strategies and depth. Also, the third phase doesn't have too much health, you're just not dealing damage to him consistently. If you stay as close to him as possible at all times while dodging his projectiles, he goes down very fast. You can S-Rank Dr. Kahl in under 1:30 time. You also say there's no depth to the phase, but I completely disagree. On Expert you have to deal with fast-moving projectiles in either a rotating pentagonal pattern, or alternating octagonal pattern, with both moving in a overall sinusoidal pattern. Staying close to Dr. Kahl requires possibly the most complicated and challenging movement in any phase in Cuphead. For the R-Control: A arguments, the way the player moves when upside down is consistent with other 2D run 'n guns where you're upside down, like Alien Soldier (which Cuphead takes inspiration from). It's also consistent with the upside down sections in Funhouse Frazzle. This video felt extremely bloated and repetitive, you could have presented your core arguments in an hour or less. Also, please cut the streamer clips, they add nothing to the video.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Hey thanks for the comment! I appreciate the feedback. I address the perceived bloat/repetition in the pinned comment. The video is very thorough, which makes my channel more of a niche for those who care about the details of game design (but this is a balance that I'm improving for future videos, so please know that I'm hearing you and other feedback and constantly improving), but it also means that I cover not only the "what" but the "how" and "why," which is quite unique on KZbin as a whole and also means I have to expect the same for people who disagree, since that's only fair for the excessive amount of time and effort invested in these videos and the thoroughness of proving each point. To that end, I'll address the major points of your comment and also point you to the video where applicable, and I hope you understand that I can't go into detail here for the sake of time but I hope this helps. Just because the dogs are one unit in-universe doesn't mean it's unified in a cohesive way. The visual elements make sense for their respective phases, but what I'm talking about is a unifying, core theme, that the mechanics can reinforce and vice versa. The boss has to be looked at in a holistic view, as a whole. You're right when it comes to individual phase elements, at least thematically, but you have to look at it holistically as one boss because that's what it is. Also, I covered the Chinook showing up in the beginning in the Unifying Theme section, so refer to that for that response. And the Chinook being the centerpiece and Unifying Theme of the whole boss would definitely not be monotonous. There are so many ideas that could work. It just seems like it might not work or might be monotonous because Studio MDHR doesn't do a good job of capturing and utilizing the full potential of their ideas. You'll see that in the next video as well. But really a designer can make any focal point work. The Chinook is the obvious piece to focus on, and so mechanics can be conformed to that Unifying Theme. And even then, the secret phase and the bombastic screen rotation elements already demonstrate a ton of the potential it can offer. So saying that sticking to the Chinook as the centerpiece would be monotonous is crazy. You'd be surprised what designers can achieve! I'm not interested in "all bosses" for the scope of this video. If we're talking Howling Aces, I cover depth and which phases have high or low depth in the video. I think your next point is that not moving the plane is optional so the onus is on the player to not engage with that strategy, but the simple answer to that is the designer must assume that players will take the path of least resistance, and they often do. Dissecting what a mechanic or phase encourages or allows is incredibly important in game design. For our purposes, it's the sign of a much deeper problem, because if the player doesn't have to move the plane to engage with phases 2 and 3, then that means the game elements don't interact with the boss' core mechanic to create depth. And again, depth justifies mechanics and elements. There's really no way to defend that. The four guidelines are guidelines and it's acceptable to break them in favor of a different boss structure, but the benefits (and consequences) of manipulating complexity over the course of a boss fight are plenty (no need for me to repeat them all here) and must be understood if the designer wants to break them. I think R-Control being consistent is fair to point out, but also it's inconsistent within the smaller scope of the boss, which is more important. The streamer clips provide additional validation. Since this is an evidence-based channel, seeing how people react to the game design that I lay out is basically additional evidence. The clips are also entertaining. Your concern may be that the clips aren't spaced more evenly throughout the video or are too lumped together, which is a valid concern and something I've improved on since the FNaF and Outer Wilds videos. But saying they add nothing to the video is just not true and frankly not that helpful. Thanks again for taking the time to leave a comment! God bless.

[@Bluesine_R]

@@DesignFrameCaseStudies Thanks for your response, even though I disagree. The last thing I'll add is that if you really want to properly analyze these bosses, it should be in the context of S-Ranking them. Some charms do admittedly make it still too easy, but that is the way that was designed to require the most amount of skill expression and decision making. I highly recommend trying to S-Rank the game's bosses, especially the DLC bosses, with Peashooter and Coffee. It makes The Howling Aces and Moonshine Mob some of my favorite bosses in any game. I understand what you're saying about players wanting to go through the path of least resistance, but does that really always apply? Why not beat every boss on Simple mode then because it's much easier than Regular or Expert? I think Miss Chalice and Heart Ring are also their own types of "easy modes" that you can choose to use or not. It's similar to complaining that Devil Trigger is overpowered in Devil May Cry 1 on normal mode, when the boss health is actually balanced around Dante Must Die difficulty. You are expected to build your meter with regular attacks and do most of your damage in Devil Trigger mode. It's also similar to saying that DoDonPachi or Ikaruga are really easy games, because you can just credit-feed yourself through them. The games are actually designed to be 1CC'd (cleared with one credit) and after you can do that you're supposed to learn the scoring system, which really shows the richness and depth of the mechanics of these games.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

@@Bluesine_R Simple Mode is a difficulty option. This series assumes Normal Mode. To address your question though, I'll most likely make a separate Difficulty video since it's a complex topic. It involves some elements of least resistance, esp if poorly implemented, but it's unfortunately not that simple. The boss' structure also applies to both beating a boss and S-Ranking a boss (or A+ on Normal Mode). The same design applies to both. I do want to add though that it's okay to still enjoy the bosses. My videos aim to overall improve the design and experience across the board, so it's easier to think about the criticisms as the potential for you to enjoy the game even more. And I also don't want you to think there aren't well-designed aspects. Both Phase 1 and the Secret Phase being well-designed is quite significant. But the boss' structural issues mean that the potential for a greater experience is high, and I understand how that can sometimes be difficult to imagine. The previous video covers why Ms. Chalice and the DLC items are poorly designed and run counter to Studio MDHR's design intent, for partly the reason of path of least resistance, but it has greater implications as well. I also outline solutions that would improve the game.

[@thelemoncoffee]

okay so i have a pitch for how to make this fight's phases flow better between one another, hear me out- -Phase one: keep it as is, maybe add a sound cue for the Chinook in the background, and maybe have it also appear more than once back there. at the end of the phase instead of Pilot Bulldog getting blown away into the ether while the Yankee Yippers get to eject with jet-packs, all of them are about to get blown away but the Chinook swoops in and catches them in it's mouth -Phase Two: forget the original one entirely, we're repurposing the secrete phase three. the Chinook grabs the screen with one paw and out pop the Yankee Yippers yeeting their pineapple grenades at you and fire hydrants fall from the sky. in this version you have to knock out all the Yippers to beat the phase, you can tell they're out when their bodies are laying limp in the port with dizzy stars, when all the Yippers are defeated they will all fall out from the ports and the Chinook will scowl and chomp it's teefs at ya before grabbing the screen with both paws -Phase Three: Pilot Bulldog makes a reappearance!! he's now the one popping from the ports on both sides instead of the lasers and he's throwing the tennis balls and using the crossbone boomerangs to attack you. Sargent O'Fera's segments of this phase and the screen turning remain unchanged, but i think it'd just be all around better if the controls for the fight were permanently set to option B for simplicity sake

[@BolasMinion]

I didn't expect Dawko's voice as soon as I clicked on the video

[@JuanRecomienda]

I think you nailed on the core of why I didn´t find Cuphead´s bosses in general as fun as in other better designed games (something i didn´t know how to explain while playing), the fact that the bosses have phases with completely different mechanics that you have to re-learn, instead of focusing on one satisfying challenge and making it harder overtime. A good example in a different game would be Hollow Knight´s Mantis Lords, which the first phase you fight one mantis with three attacks, and the second phase you fight two Mantis at the same time, but their attacks are the same as the one in the first phase, it´s really simple but super enjoyable. The dogs were my favourite bosses from the DLC because of it´s well designed first phase and the spectacle of the third, but it would have been a much better fight as you said if it centered around expanding either the first phase or the third one throughout the whole fight, instead of making both. I know people already told you this and that you took the criticism, but this one video in particular felt kinda slow and repetitive. I felt that your security Breach video was the perfect balance of being able to understand your arguments, while also not over-explaining yourself, while in this one you do repeat yourself sometimes or go on tangents that are genuinely interesting, but maybe they were not needed for a 2 minute boss fight. Something I like about your videos, is the way you show other people playing as examples of your arguments, they are a nice touch and pretty entertaining, the editing is consistently really good too.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thank you very much for taking the time to write this! I appreciate it! Thanks for sharing about Hollow Knight as well. That's a great example of a boss with a core mechanic. I'm working hard to keep the next video much shorter, but without sacrificing the value. Thank you for bearing with me! I'm glad you like the clips and editing. It takes a lot of time to organize and get right, so it's always good to hear that it worked out :)

[@JuanRecomienda]

​@@DesignFrameCaseStudies Thank you for the kind words! Also don´t worry too much about the pacing, I´ve seen worse pacing and arguments from much bigger channels, your scripts are still pretty good. Yeah I do some editing stuff too so I know how time consuming it is lol, even more when the video is long. One thing I forgot to mention in my comment is that I think the last phases of a boss shouldn´t only decrease in complexity, but stay at the same level too. Like, for example, the second phase of the Mantis Lords have the same amount of complexity as the first one, having the same three attacks, there´s more depth, but the complexity stays the same, the problem would only be if they added a 4th attack adding complexity.

[@Bailey_Dreamfoot]

knowing this, i feel a BIT better for being shite at the game 😭

[@OverdadeiroIkarus]

Nice to see you back

[@centurosproductions8827]

It's really hard to tell what the Chinook is doing in the background there. Until you specifically pointed it out, I thought it was exploding for... some reason, every time it appeared on screen firing the hydrants.

[@spouwnerring]

I rewatched the video and then something hit me. In Darksouls you can quit out of the game and then load back in in order to teleport all remaining enemies that are still alive back to their starting positions. This results in them completely forgetting about your exitence and resuming their normal patrol routes ontill you get spotted or make a noice loud enough for them to want to investigate. Speedrunners use this tech all the time. They even use it to avoid falling to their deaths in certain locations. This tech is also used in games like Elden Ring and Bloodborne, however quitting out and reloading wont work in DS2. Unlike the other Soulsborne games, quitting out in DS2 wont result in enemies teleporting back to their starting positions and forgetting about you. This probably has something to do with DS2 not being on the same engine as the other games.

[@doovin1827]

what if the chinook tackled you during the second phase? going from top to bottom wherever cuphead was standing, this'd be area denial, which would give an actual use for canteen hugh's plane, and would make the bow-wows more dangerous, and maybe even cause you to get hit by the yankee yippers directly if you over extend this would also potentially help thematically, as the chinook only has a small presence in the first phase, a greater presence in the second phase, and be the main star in the third

[@brianhull2407]

I’m not sure if you’re aware that, in Super Mario Bros., after getting a game over, you can start from the first level of whatever world you were in, not just the first level of the game. Because of this, the extended challenge is getting to the next world, and Warp Zones actually make some (though not all) of them optional.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

It's to my current understanding that you can only restart from the same world if you hold the A button down then press Start. I wouldn't consider that part of the core design. It's more like a built-in, secret cheat code. I don't mention Warp Zones since it wasn't important for the concept of Extended Challenges.

[@brianhull2407]

@@DesignFrameCaseStudies That is true, though I believe the Continue option was mentioned in the manual.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Ah, I wasn't aware of that, that's interesting to know!

[@brianhull2407]

@@DesignFrameCaseStudies Yeah, since manuals are often lost (especially for older games), and people often didn’t read the manuals, it’s common for intended mechanics to become forgotten and later become apparently secret. I believe this is one of them. Kinda a shame that manuals are becoming a lost art.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

@@brianhull2407 If you're a fan of manuals, check out Tunic! It's a game that feels like a true Zelda 1 adventure game (except it also has souls-like bosses). But the main goal of the game centers around an in-game manual. It's really clever and nails that adventure feeling.

[@kalibhi1770]

I wish that the secret phase three was kept, but keep the screenflip as an attack that happens on a timer, most likely removing the 180 degree flip to make it a little easier.

[@DigitalinDaniel]

I feel like instead of the bullsdog getting out of the plane and throwing bonemerangs... a yipper should jump out on one side and spit B, O, W that fly off the screen in one direction... and another yipper should jump out on the opposite site and spit W, O, W off the screen in the other direction. (essentially the same function as the bonemerangs, but utilizing the yippers for animation. The bulldog should still jump out and shoot the yarnballs though.

[@Mr.BummyDiddles]

There's something I forgot to mention: The yarn balls don't make you commit as much as you think. If you're crouching under the yarn balls while a tennis ball is about to hit you, you can dash to avoid it, for dashing has the same hitbox as crouching. There are also ways you can go completely over the yarn balls (midair dash, midair EX, double jump), but those are obviously less safe/available than crouching.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

I probably should have mentioned dashing; good point. I think dashing is tough though since you can accidentally dash too far off the side of the relatively small plane. So I think the crouch dashing is a good source of skill expression for mastering the phase. I don't count jumping or dashing over the top of the yarn balls because it's just too difficult to pull off consistently, or at least it feels awkward. I don't think Studio MDHR had jumping in mind there, though it's a valid option.

[@Bailey_Dreamfoot]

if a game asks its players for perfection i think its fair players ask the game for perfection in return

[@djuv4375]

My one thought of repetition is that's the point of cuphead? It's an arcade style game trying to be as difficult and unfair as back then. So, the issue is with the actually beginning concept since it's built to specifically do that. And if there were check points, people wouldn't remember the bosses as well since they aren't playing all of it, while also making the game shorter and less satisfying.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Repetition is the point insofar as the extended challenge -- replaying until the player masters and beats the challenge. Difficulty isn't really relevant here, since Studio MDHR designed with one primary difficulty in mind, so we're taking that as their design intent and otherwise avoiding the topic of difficulty (other than how certain things interact with difficulty as a concept), though it may sometimes be important to compare difficulty across Isles to see how Studio MDHR achieved their difficulty progression. I use Studio MDHR's claim of Isle 4 being roughly the same difficulty as Isle 3 to make a point, but that's because I'm looking at their design intent. Justifying unfairness due to emulation of its inspirations is not a good argument since arcade games had a monetary reason and Cuphead doesn't, but even then, that doesn't excuse arcade games. The fact is, unfairness negatively affects the player and the player experience in multiple ways, which is also likely to reduce income on arcade machines. Although I talk about checkpoints since they're an important feature to consider in the topic of tedium and extended challenges, I don't make the argument that Cuphead should incorporate checkpoints. I think checkpoints would be a bandage for the real structural problems that Cuphead has. I hope that clarifies things for you! Thanks for sharing your concerns. I'm happy to respond (until this channel grows and floods me with comments 😅).

[@dubiousdeliquite6641]

Repetition is part of the point but also repetition can be done well and in a way thats fun, like the example of dark souls games. If anything its a worse look if they actively wanted to make a game thats simply not fun rather than what the result was: a game where some fights are fun to repeat and others like this one are a slog

[@swan-cloud]

4:40 actually it's the opposite since the plane's facing the screen :v

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Fair enough haha. Everything is from the perspective of the player in this case :)

[@Fluffkitscripts]

Potential fixes: What if crackshot and seeker just never locked onto destructible projectiles? That would make BD’s hydrants a counter to them and force players to at least take a second gun. Focus the whole fight on the plane. Escalate difficulty by eventually filling large vertical portions of the screen with damage, forcing the player to move the plane and escape. A bit like brineybeard’s ship’s hyper beam, but vertical. Use the lasers she already fires as gates that the player has to avoid flying the plane through. If you want to use the screen flip, make THAT your phase one introduction. Flip the screen, then give them a simple, slow vertical attack to dodge to the side of. Then they get a handle of sideways movement in an inverted screen. Stop saying hyoogs. Whoever told you it was pronounced hyoogs was lying. The g is silent.

[@andrewmillar8254]

I think there's a certain amount of irony in explaining the concept of tedium for several minutes. I think generally you may be over-explaining. To be honest, I gave up before 15 minutes when you started explaining how optional challenges are different than mandatory challenges. I like your ideas, but not enough to sit around first while you read the dictionary at me.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

It's not defining them, but explaining why and how tedium is created and how tedium affects different types of challenges. I appreciate you giving this comprehensive video a shot, though! I'll be experimenting with shorter videos in the future so it sounds like you may appreciate them more.

[@hexellent0324]

Omg can't believe I missed this >:( I had my bell on and everything. Great video!!!

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Welcome back! Thank you so much :)

[@a_creatorsstuff17]

Personaly, the way how i would change phase 2: Have the dogs come in on the screen in diferent formations, like all from top, dropping projectiles straight down in diferent places, with diferent safe spots, during the circling formation (og phase) thry can ocasionaly toss tenis balls And that could already require you move the plane Even if the studio wants to make the screen moving a surprise, wich is kinda terrible as it forces you to replay the whole fight to learn it over and over again, they can still imply and teach it by having dome formation be just passing by, swinging the screen slightly, or flip the plane into a barrel roll, or upside down, but it stays like that, so the player can get used to it and expand when in phase 3 it changes over and over again

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

I'd prefer if the entire boss fight was focused on the Chinook, but as long as the screen flipping is introduced early then we can make it work haha. Thanks for sharing your ideas!

[@pining_tree6788]

Only an hour and 40 minutes in but I get the feeling that they should’ve just made an entire level out of the chnook. Maybe have the plane movement be its own level that way if it must be in this one too it’s already had time to shine, and then slowly introduce the chnooks screen bending mechanics as its own level

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Yeah, I definitely think this boss should've centered around the Chinook instead of the strange three-dog split. There's definitely a way of handling the awesome presentation and screen rotation and Canteen Hughes' plane (like how the secret phase properly handles depth with the core mechanic) that creates an amazing boss.

[@jeanf6295]

You can somewhat mitigate the tedium by trying another boss, and come back latter, if it isn't the last one you have to beat to unlock the final boss DLC.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

That doesn't mitigate the concept of tedium. That's just playing another boss haha

[@jeanf6295]

@@DesignFrameCaseStudies it makes the tedium bearable. If you had to beat the bosses in a specific order, it would be far worse.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

@@jeanf6295 Yeah, I suppose that's true! I personally wouldn't accept that as a counterargument for the arguments made in the video, but I see where you're coming from. It's nice to be able to step away and refresh.

[@Lisanicolas366]

I don't think you're fixing the problem that way. You're just avoiding it temporarily

[@mycroft7015]

great video! your work is awesome

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thank you so much!

[@AKWLMath]

The reason for R-Control A working like it does when upside down is probably because that is how it works in the upside down cards stage, but that brings the question of why is B the not the default and why isn't it corrected for A if B already does that.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

That's interesting, but I'm more interested in the inconsistency of the control scheme; i.e., R-Control A is consistent in how we control Cuphead relative to him except upside-down. It's a careless oversight honestly.

[@skeleton_magic]

Just to give constructive criticism, it feels a bit like your belaboring the points in certain sections of your video. Like for example with the Dr Kahl section, it starts from the late 25th minute to the late 46th minute mark, 21 minutes in total to explain something that you could do in like 7. You did a better job with Cala Maria section where it goes from the 47th minute to the 51st minute, 4 minutes in total to get a concept and point across.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Hey I appreciate it! The degree of thoroughness has been the number one critique of these Cuphead videos so my goal for the next one is to address that. I think I've greatly improved on the next video (I'm in the middle of editing it), but I guess I'll find out when it releases! And I'll continue to try my best to improve each video (but without removing what makes this channel different from every other). Thank you for watching and commenting. You're awesome!

[@skeleton_magic]

@@DesignFrameCaseStudies Happy to be of help and I hope your next video does well.

[@willferrous8677]

The "Early Key Learning Points" thing is called ""Antepiece"

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

I didn't know that was a term. I think I disagree. From what I can gather, antepiece has a greater emphasis on easy/non-threatening and qualitative. I'm sure it can be applied elsewhere by bending the rules, but if we're being honest, my term is both more accurate and way more intuitive for the purposes of this video and game.

[@willferrous8677]

@@DesignFrameCaseStudies Like the TVtropes page for that term has the Egoraptor quote for how megaman 5 introduces two seperate concepts first in a safer situation and then combined them later. How it is used on the site is more or less what you wanted to describe. And it is elegant on an etymological standpoint.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

@willferrous8677 Right, but I'm looking at how the page defines the term, and it seems heavily applied to tutorial design. I'm sure it can be applied here as well but modified, such as the situation being threatening in Cuphead instead of non-threatening, according to balancing the Trio mentioned in the video. Either way though, Early Key Learning describes itself. Antepiece doesn't. I don't really see a reason to use the term if I have to narrow the concept to apply to Cuphead when I can instead use a more intuitive term to describe the broader concept. I appreciate sharing the term though! It's good to know it exists, and I might use it in the future. It seems useful.

[@willferrous8677]

@@DesignFrameCaseStudies But it does describe it! "ante" means "before" (Hence "antebellum" and "antediluvian") It's a set-piece that shows up before the main thing as prepwork! I'm just trying to help you getting "more cred" by giving you already established terms that you can use later.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

@willferrous8677 That's fair, actually. I'll look into the term more 'cause I don't want to accidentally misuse it, depending on the situation. I don't want you to think I don't appreciate you pointing it out though! It's good to know and I'll most likely use it in the future.

[@user-vw4xp5nt9f]

zany is pronounced zay-nee btw. not zah-nee

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Yes I know. Wasn't worth fixing 'cause it doesn't affect the content.

[@Omrri]

thanks for another delicious video!

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thank you so much for watching!

[@zackyona1916]

This video is outstanding, but I've got a small question; what's the game you show at 9:21? It looks dope

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thank you very much! It's Wall World. It's alright but it overstayed its welcome when I played it.

[@Moghster6969]

The fact that you still respond to these comments, honestly shocks me💀🙏 (Also good work bro but i have small question, will you ever make video about dead by daylight? I think that this game is gold mine in terms on deep analisy)

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Dead By Daylight isn't on my upcoming possibilities list, but I'll write it down. It's also harder for me to make a video on a multiplayer game, since I have to organize a friend group for it. But I'll consider it!

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Although, I forgot I had something written down for DBD -- it's interesting to me (and would make for a good video) that DBD basically runs off of an "honor system" where there are many dumb optimal strategies that ruin the experience. At least that's what I've seen online. I'd have to do more research.

[@Moghster6969]

​@@DesignFrameCaseStudiesas much as I Love this game, The devs seems to forget that they're no longer random indie producers and they should be let's say.... more proffesional xD. Regardles of that I still think that after failure called skull merchant they started to go in right dirrection for example due to reworking litteratly wrost killers in The game (both in op and weak means) or adding new really good killers (I still really want a cross progresion💀)

[@Waiives]

your videos are always a joy to watch; have you ever played Furi?? its similar to Cuphead with the whole boss-fight to boss-fight shtick, and i think you might like to analyze it in comparison to Cuphead. thank you for the sick content!!

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thank you very much! Yeah I've played a few bosses in Furi many years ago. I'd like to revisit it. Thanks for the recommendation!

[@Youwillseesomething]

That moment when someone makes a 2 hour video about how your favorite boss is objectively bad. (Yeah, thismy favorite boss in the dlc)

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

I'm sorry! To be fair, there are several great things about it :)

[@Youwillseesomething]

@@DesignFrameCaseStudies Thank you! Also, oddly enough, I do not like the stone mechanic in Cala Maria. It felt like un-fun artificial difficulty you couldn’t avoid. But I guess that’s just how opinions work.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

@@Youwillseesomething It would be artificial difficulty if the damage was unavoidable, but that's not the case here. However, I could see a case made for the button mashing mechanic. There should be an accessibility option for holding the button down instead. Also, apparently in Phase 2, standing still avoids the stone gaze. So maybe if Studio MDHR made that mechanic clear or reasonably discoverable, it'd make the stone gaze more fun.

[@Youwillseesomething]

@@DesignFrameCaseStudies Ok. Good to know.

[@kingofus8688]

I think they should have dropped the second phase and replaced it with the chinook. Keep the first phase, add the chinook having it flip the screen from side to side. than add the upside down and rightside up flips with the side to side movements. the yippers (if necessary) could even throw the dog bowls out or shoot the lasers through the paws of the chinook.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Yeah, I'd probably involve the Chinook in all three phases, but definitely drop the second phase for sure!

[@SaddieMoon]

39:05 Come on, give him a chance. He just wants to show off his gem collection. /j On second thought, I think this was annoying to fight with how long it was. The dog fight has way too much going on in the final phase. I don't recall finding either tedious, but I think I just blocked out any feeling of tedium at the very least. As I can see this getting tedious.

[@chrisv4472]

Overall, I find the repetition to be useful. It brings this video an educational quality to it: ensuring everyone is on the same page, that terms are defined, and that everyone knows the connections between all that points mentioned. I would say the only major bloat is the excessive use of streamers and their footage. I know you're trying to make points utilizing their reactions, but you could easily remove 3/4ths of them and still get the message through Crystal clear. Mostly, all they do is give me headache fuel at I listen to your content with earbuds, and their exaggerated yelling is quite unpleasant; especially in contrast to your measured, consistent, and clear speech.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thank you very much! The clips I use are not just for the points, since, to be fair to my work, I don't need them at all to make the points, but also for entertainment purposes. It seems to be one of the reasons people liked my FNaF video, so it makes sense to continue with it. I tried to balance the audio but I'll decrease their volume in future videos so they're not unpleasant. Sorry about that!

[@flashbackfrank8781]

I uh.... I hate to be that guy, But mario DID have "Tedium-removers." built in. You could restart from the first level of whatever world you died on by holding down a button combination. Essentially loading from a "Checkpoint." (IE: You die on world 3-3, you'd re-start the game at 3-1) Not only that, there are TONS of warp pipes to access that, by mastering the game, let you SKIP the tedium. And dark souls isn't forced, by any means. You can always go farm, or find another way to lower the challenge. In cuphead, you have a set of weapons to choose from, many of which are just not that good, and then get put against a boss that aside from playing the DLC character, you aren't going to be able to lessen the difficulty of and told "Okay, you HAVE to beat this to proceed." That's the real problem with tedium. It's when you're forced to approach a wall head on, with no way to think your way out of having to slam yourself into it until it breaks. That tedium is WHY dark souls did so well: Because it's not there. YOU decide that those souls are worth throwing yourself at the boss again for. You can always just step back and go farm, or go improve your gear. You can't +1 your health in cuphead by farming random shoot-em-up levels for 5 hours, but since people have the OPTION to do so, that OPTION helps ease tedium into feeling more like a challenge. You're slowly trained for the next encounters through the map itself, and your ability to come at a problem from a dozen different ways made it feel much more open. The player is lead to doubt their build, and make a choice of if they should change or tough it out until they come across the boss that their build really specializes in decimating. In Cuphead you get thrown random insta-kill curveballs so you "Know what's coming later" and that's NOT fun. VERY few people enjoy playing memory games because memory games are tedium in and of themselves. Because not only do you not know what's coming, it's often done in such a way that it's MADE to take advantage of your confusion because until you figure out what specific thing you're supposed to do, you simply keep getting blasted by that insane pattern. Even bullet-hell games aren't as stingey as cuphead's DLC. It's pretty much what happens when a game developer gets popular because of "Difficulty" these days. They make one hard-but-fair or unfair-but-fun experience, and people lose their mind over how "good" they are for beating it. Then the developer realizes that their difficulty is now "Normal". So they have to bump up difficulty, make the game MORE unfair, give the bosses MORE attack patterns to throw players off, give the bosses MORE massive attacks that defeat basic mechanics, ect. Then THAT gets beaten. So what comes next? You end up with stuff like "I wana be the guy" where the game goes out of it's way to screw you as many times as possible, as often as possible, but gives you GENEROUS checkpoints to lessen that blow. Practically every room has some form of checkpoint because just getting through that room might take a layperson 30 minutes to an hour. Even the first screens of the game have so many cheap deaths just to pad it out. But once you know what to do, you can FLY through the game in half the time it takes that layperson TO beat one room. Those challenges can be fun, but they have to be done in a way that RESPECTS THE PLAYERS TIME. It has to be something you can pick up, do a few tries, and then leave without feeling like you got cheated out of excessive amounts of time for what little you've learned. If you complete a challenge and go "I didn't learn anything from this session about this game and it's mechanics" then you've REALLY fucked up as a challenge rush / boss rush game. You should feel more competent, more in control, and more confident in how you play with each boss you defeat. Your victory cry should be more "YES, WHOOO. LETS GO! Finally learned how to do that jump. Hey wait, I can use that to skip this other zone from before...." And less: "FUCK. OFF. FINALLY. Now I can actually play the game. I hope that's the last time they use that mechanic because that was infuriatingly stupid."† † Sadly, this is where most people are, even when they're NOT playing something actually cheap or difficult, because difficulty in and of itself has been equated to being cheated since the Ps3/360 eras....

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

It's difficult to respond to lengthy comments due to time constraints but I'll try my best here because I appreciate you taking the time to comment. So I apologize ahead of time if I miss or misinterpret something. I didn't mention the pipe stuff for Mario since it wasn't important for the point I was making. I didn't know about the cheat code, but I don't really care to include cheat codes in this video. It's interesting to know though, so thanks for sharing! There are many ways of dealing with tedium, but it's a complicated topic that really depends on context, since game design is a complex, interconnected web. A key point, though, is the player has to feel like they're progressing in some way, whether improvement via skill or improvement via knowledge. Even without the virtual skill (RPG systems) in Dark Souls, there's always an escalating level of player improvement via both skill and knowledge until they complete and master the challenge. This is why getting into stuff outside of the scope of this video is something I try not to do, because it clouds the real point that I'm trying to make. I don't really have a reason to talk about Dark Souls' leveling and RPG systems. I don't want to demean the point you're trying to make, but I hope that makes sense. I agree that Cuphead should provide player options through the weapons and charms, including situational (but still balanced) weapons/charms. Unfortunately, Cuphead sucks at that (refer to the first DLC video haha). I think part of this too is you're seeing how Cuphead has one level of difficulty (Regular mode) and applying the idea of getting stuck without improvement to it; i.e., a player doesn't feel like they're improving because the gap between their current skill level as a player and the game's expected mastery skill level is too big. For the purposes of the series, I stick with Studio MDHR's design intent of one difficulty for their target audience. Whether that's good or bad for the game is up to debate, but that's out of scope of the series. That's why I only briefly mention difficulty in the first DLC video, to establish design intent. However, if you're more talking about the bad design of the DLC bosses, then I agree lol. You mention Cuphead throws stuff so "you know what's coming later." I'm unsure if that's referencing the Early Key Learning points that I talk about, but if it is, I want to clarify that the point is to escalate in complexity and/or depth so that it's not overwhelming and it feels more intuitive to learn and master. But, funnily enough, since you mention memorization, I talk about Trial & Error and Memorization in the High-Noon Hoopla video that's releasing in a week or so. You're right that people shouldn't have to memorize attacks, and one method to fix that is through proper conveyance of information, such as telegraphing. Anyway, I agree with your application of memorization and confusion to the Howling Aces, because it really is insane to me that Studio MDHR thought that it was okay to change fundamental controls in the very last phase. You're spot on with I Wanna Be The Guy as well. That's all about checkpoint management, which is difficult (what part of game making isn't lol). The game is clearly unfair, but its core design is being unfair and it builds around it. Thanks again for watching and commenting! You're awesome.

[@reaperz5677]

I haven't watched the video yet, and thus, I'm a bit out of the loop - will there be more videos analysing Cuphead bosses like this? Because, as much as I'd like a 2-hour long video for every single boss in this DLC, I think this sort of commitment to a topic is a bit... out of your scope. For now, at least.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Good intuition. This video was definitely not supposed to be this long, and I'm trying to put hard limits on the next ones. I recognize that it's not sustainable. It has been the main conversation going on in the background right now. I appreciate your concern, because it's definitely real :)

[@reaperz5677]

​@@DesignFrameCaseStudies Well, I'm glad to hear that this is being addressed in the studio*, then! (* - you probably don't have a "studio", but you get the point lol.)

[@pavret4663]

Amazing video

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thank you!

[@Gavman2105]

What are you talking about? Mario has warp zones, which in my opinion definitely circumvent gameplay.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

There's nuance to the warp zones that I could talk about and how that might affect the gameplay loop, but there's really no reason to. You understand the point of what I'm saying and the core design behind it.

[@10011110011]

If I beat the harder part of the challenge, whats the of hanving an easy part as the ending od that battle?

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Assuming you mean difficulty, it's best if difficulty and/or depth increases over time, and complexity decreases. Basically, there shouldn't be a high learning curve toward the end. Instead, the end should feel more climactic and focused. It's always a balance and situational though. It's possible to want an easy last phase for thematic reasons, though it still can't forsake depth. As long as there's depth, there's still a reason to play through it, even if it's easy.

[@spouwnerring]

So are The Howling Aces covered 1st? Why aren't Glumstone the Giant or Moonshine Mob the 1st boss that get's examened in this video series? To reach THA you need to either 1, defeat 2 other bosses at minimum or 2, explore the overworld and find a hidden route that leads you to THA. Most players go with the former option, because GtG and MM are easy to reach and easy to see. So shouldn't THA be number 3 on the list instead of being number 1?

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

The order is based on topic rather than when the bosses are unlocked. The guidelines in this video apply to the rest of the bosses as well.

[@blacky7801]

R-Control = Rotated Control ?

[@ShinoSarna]

Again, a lot of my critiques from last video apply here. "Balance" has very little meaning in a single player, PvE campaign-driven game. To quote a tumblr post "is this game actually bad, or does not match what you wanted it to be?" Does it actually 'betray its own vision' or does it betray YOUR vision of what you imagined it could be like?

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Same reply applies here, somewhat, especially for a video you didn't even watch, because balance isn't really a topic in this video. It's disingenuous and rude, to say the least, to apply your own agenda to something that isn't even relevant. I guess regardless: I extensively established their vision. I established a foundation for balance to sit on via design intent. Your feelings of what accessibility should look like is inaccurate and not a relevant topic in this context. And no, accessibility is not the same as difficulty, and not the same as traditional player options. Balance is applied correctly in the previous video. If you don't want to engage with game design, then there are plenty of shallow channels for you.

[@leonardo9259]

"yo this was boring, here's why" "Hmmmmmmm acshually was it really boring or you didn't find it fun??? Who said games are supposed to be fun?"

[@ShinoSarna]

@@leonardo9259 Not what I said at all.

[@ShinoSarna]

@@leonardo9259 Cool, I haven't said any of that shit.

[@andreworders7305]

How does the plane work in co-op?

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

In co-op, both players share the same plane, if I remember correctly.

[@andreworders7305]

@@DesignFrameCaseStudies how does that affect its steering?

[@bardhi09]

The Ms. Chalice video was good. This video otoh pretty much sucks completely. The point of themes and their randomness is especially awful and it feels like you’re not familiar with the cartoons they MDHR were inspired from. The point about tedium and transitionary phases is awful too, not everything need to be min-maxxed in a game and this mentality is ruining the spontaneity of video games. This is the kind of stuff that adds to games being memorable. The Dr. Karl 3rd phase being long is the whole point, not to mention that it is acceptable from a design standpoint because Dr. Karl is one of the last bosses you fight in the base game, so it is acceptable to have a boss like that at that pint.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

On the contrary my friend, the fact that you relate randomness to MDHR's cartoon inspiration to justify it misses the point of what that inspiration entails and how that can apply to the medium of video games. A common pitfall for people is misunderstanding what surrealism is (surrealism is what you're referring to) and how to approach and apply it. I'm not blaming you, since surrealism is by far the most misunderstood concept behind Cuphead's ideology, but I implore you to check out my upcoming video if surrealism is a topic you're interested in. Surrealism will mostly be talked about in Phase 3, though theme is also mentioned throughout the video. The entire thesis is based on tedium, so I assume what you're referring to here is specifically transition phases. I sense a misunderstanding here as well, since having a unifying theme and coherency and structure in a game does NOT remove surrealism or spontaneity or memorability. In fact, the opposite happens, because in a properly structured game, every element builds up every other element. Show me a game where you think structure or unifying theme ruin memorability and I'll show you a deeper problem that's actually the cause of your concerns. The Dr. Kahl point was a side note and isn't a major problem in the boss, so we can say the length is personal preference. The only thing is Dr. Kahl is in Isle 3, not the end of Isle 3, and not the end of the game, as there's a distinct ending zone to mark the last bosses.

[@bardhi09]

@@DesignFrameCaseStudies Nobody is misunderstanding surrealism, dud. It’s clear you’re not familiar with the unsettling offbeat Fleischer cartoons of the 30s which MDHR is emulating. In fact I woul argue they didn’t go hard enough and the early Cuphead trailers even had cutscenes which portrayed Cuphead in a more devious darker fashion which they greatly toned down for the final product. No, you do not understand. What I was saying is that not everything needs to be tightly designed in a game. Some ’’boring parts’’ like the Djimmi transitionary phase add to the memorability of the level because it helps differentiate it from other bosses like the Dragon for example. You could make that part a lot more challenging and engaging but you would also change how the whole stage feels in the process. The base Cuphead game was generally exciting with some boring parts in the right places where you could slow down a bit. It wasn’t a game made for speedrunners who want to save every microsecond they can. Dr. Kahl is positioned near the top of the map though just like the Dragon is the final boss of Isle 2, so that should clue you in when it comes to the difficulty level.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

​@@bardhi09 Countering by saying I don't understand (and that's it) before you engage with my argument of what surrealism actually is doesn't help anyone. Whether you listen and counter (once the video is out soon) or walk away, either is fine, I don't expect your engagement, but let's not waste time by choosing neither. I don't wish to come across as abrasive or rude, I just feel this is reasonable to respect both of our time. Yeah that's still in-line with what I was saying. Memorability doesn't 1:1 equate to structure, challenge, or engagement. Design just isn't that simple. If you want memorability, then great, let's talk memorability, but that's a separate conversation. The video does not talk about memorability because it's not a simple equation and is out of scope of the topics and discussions at play. To be clear, I'm not trying to discredit the importance of memorability. It's valid to be concerned about it, and it's a good thing to think about. All that matters here is that good multiphase challenge structure doesn't affect memorability. It's on the designer to also make it memorable. And even if it was a 1:1, the negatives of bad structure far outweigh the positives from a design perspective. Also, quick note, that this isn't the only way to structure a boss. But the principles are important to know regardless. Dr. Kahl can be the second boss beaten in Isle 3, which means it's possible that seven bosses follow (N.B. all that matters is that it's possible). Saying he's one of the last bosses is only true if you count the whole second to last Isle as the last bosses. I personally don't think that makes sense.

[@TheCreativeType]

I wonder why they didn’t make the secret phase phase 2.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Yeah I have no clue! Give us more Chinook!

[@GrapplingHookJones]

28:23 I love just the inclusion of an irrelevant Jerma joke

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

I'm glad you appreciated it hahaha

[@MrTanokki]

RE: the Secret Phase, I think you’re missing the forest for the trees. Assuming you’re right that they had it finished and then replaced it with the current final phase, it makes sense to leave it in as an obscure option for people who can’t figure out the screen flip and look up an answer online.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Bonus content, even if obscure, has to at least be reasonably discoverable in some small way. External sources isn't valid and undermines all of the possible positive reasons for the secret phase to exist, including the accessibility that you mentioned. And even if someone accidentally finds it, it's not satisfying, and there's no guarantee that those who need it would find it, which is a design flaw.

[@qn2.]

Love the frameworks and teachings here but the video is quite repetitive. Definitely feels like you belabor points to exhaustion, I would rather the video assume I recall how integral the plane design is to the level than hearing it mentioned again and again and again. It's an hour of good material stretched to nearly 3 hours. Brevity is the soul of wit, right? You're clearly passionate and knowledgeable, and it definitely shows. Keep up the good work!

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Hey thank you so much for watching and for the kind words! Yeah, I repeat stuff a tad too much (nowhere near 2 hours extra but people outside of content creation just don't have a frame of reference so it's whatever haha), though much of it is in service of thoroughness so it covers every angle, keeps people on the same page, etc. But I've already taken the feedback and improved it in the latest High-Noon Hoopla video. I've been told the problem is fixed. I hope you stick around and enjoy future content! I appreciate you!

[@CalloftheDragon-c9e]

Thoughts on Poppy Playtime

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Poppy Playtime is one I'd like to produce a video on as well. Or at least, Chapter 3, since that's the one most fresh and there's a lot of interesting things to talk about.

[@CalloftheDragon-c9e]

@@DesignFrameCaseStudiesWhat about the first two chapters?

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

@@CalloftheDragon-c9e I'd like to talk about those as well, but I don't think a video on the first two chapters would be as helpful to the studio as a chapter 3 video would be. It might depend on how long it would take to produce those videos.

[@noname-jt6kl]

As others have said i feel that this video drags on a bit too long in some places. While i thoroughly enjoyed your cuphead dlc as a whole analysis, this video seemed to repeat some points a bit too much for my liking and wandered off in places.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

I'm not sure what's repeated that isn't necessary or useful, but going on for too long is an understandable feeling due to the video's length and how comprehensive it is. I think you'll enjoy some of the shorter videos coming up.

[@cicero7409]

Sneed

[@StickySomething]

hyoogzes

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

🤔