Cartoon surrealism killed this fight before it began ► High-Noon Hoopla, a Cuphead DLC Case Study

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

============================ *_IMPORTANT! Please Read for FAQ and Consulting Info!_* ============================ Hi all, thank you so much for watching! It means a lot that you would engage in this game design journey. Your viewership and Liking/Commenting on the video help a ton and I greatly appreciate each one of you! I try to Heart or respond to comments as much as I can. This pinned comment is where I'll update with any corrections or FAQ. But first, here's some quick information on the new indie game design consulting that I'm now offering! Submit your game through our form on our website here ( gocc.carrd.co ). The website is currently undergoing a massive rework, and will include even more free resources for indie devs, so please bear with us! Check out the front page of my channel for the consulting video playlist. Subscribe to the Games Over Coffee Consulting channel to keep up-to-date with more Design Frame content! ============================ *_FAQ_* ============================ *0. **_Prerequisite Mindset & Personal Experience_* ► There's nothing wrong with finding the boss fun in your personal experience, but your enjoyment of something doesn't mean it is without flaw nor does it change objective design flaws. We can all agree that we want to see Studio MDHR and the industry improve as they continue to make games. I provide the evidence and means to do so in the behind-the-scenes game design space, and I hope you find value in that rather than a shallow reinforcement of your feelings. This does not mean that your personal experience is invalid. You are free to enjoy what you want. In fact, I very much love and appreciate hearing your personal experiences in the comments. I hold myself to a high standard and provide evidence and game design information in what I hope is in a digestible format. I am not always correct; I am human, and I am always learning. I welcome constructive feedback. I'm also happy to assist in clarifying concerns or questions, if I have the time. However, I don't accept dismissive or unsubstantiated comments. Also, interpreting others unfavorably is not constructive. Please treat everyone here with respect. Thank you for being awesome and I hope to see you around! *1. **_Western Theme / Cartoon Surrealism._* ► Just a bit of clarification here. Firstly, yes, I understand that the horsefly is a pun. The joke relies on the following. Secondly, even though everything could at least be somewhat related to the broad western theme, that's not the point. The fact is, Phase 1 scribbled down every vaguely western reference or pun and tossed it into a melting pot without reserve or care as to how it all fits together into a tighter, cohesive picture, then hid behind classic cartoon logic or surrealism and hoped nobody would notice. The section on theme first establishes the foundation of what the boss presents to us, which is a western outlaw in a saloon. Instead of embracing that core theme, we get said melting pot with no real _FOCUS_ or _GOAL_ to the theme. We also see another consequence of this, which is the lack of cohesive narrative action throughout the boss. And again, Cuphead has a very specific design intent as a mastery-based, multiphase, boss battler. Any fundamental problems - whether thematically, mechanically, or holistically - aren't something that we can push to the side, and I've done my best to convey the importance of each element throughout this series. I'm very much aware of Cuphead's presentation front, and I understand that it's difficult to process what wacky cartoon surrealism truly means as art in any medium, but the goal of this series is to finally break through that front. *2. **_Misleading Lasso/Cactus and Dynamite._* ► I present the idea of misleading telegraphs using the lasso/cactus and dynamite as examples, which can become interpreted as a direct critique of those elements since I use that topic to transition into the "gotcha" topic. I do address this in the video but I want to condense and clarify it here. The lasso/cactus and dynamite have misleading telegraphs, but they're only _lightly_ misleading. The main takeaway is that those two attacks could have been fine if there was some core mechanic to the phase or some focus or other elements that complement the lightly misleading attacks. However, as is, even something lightly misleading tends to compound on top of existing chaos if there's no structure for those misleading elements to build upon. Additionally, later on, I praise the same two attacks for their great implementation of "affordance." *3. **_But I love that feeling of insanity!_* ► The acceptance of bad design due to an attachment to a specific element or thinking sacrifices must be made for good design is a common type of misunderstanding in games. The truth is, Esther doesn't have to give up that feeling of insanity in order to be well-made. If Studio MDHR wanted to pursue or focus on that feeling, the fight must embrace insanity as a core tenet so that we can increase the satisfaction and memorability of the boss as much as possible across the board. Instead, people mostly remember the fight for the shock factor of the sausage transformation, or the overwhelming confusion and overload from the visual chaos. There's nothing wrong with finding the boss fun, but I think we all want to see Studio MDHR improve as they continue to make games. I do my best to provide the evidence and means to do so, and I hope you find value in that. It requires great effort to bring these huge productions to you for free, so I appreciate your viewership and support! *4. **_Isn't memorization a skill, though?_* ► Memorization can be a skill, like in Simon or Bop It, but here we're talking about methods of learning. We'll talk about memorization as a skill in future videos.

[@Imperial_Squid]

The TNT attack might've been so much better if Esther was just chucking the bundles herself, this further reinforces the left/right divide, ties into the theme by showing Esther is so desperate she's willing to blow you up, and actually improves the cactus attack since by further reinforcing the left/right divide, it leans into the "oh this one is actually a misdirected telegraph" aspect of the cactus

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Yeah I like the idea. I think a good place to start brainstorming would be focusing on that saloon shootout dynamic, which having the dynamite thrown from Esther aligns with that. And then perhaps the cactus can be used as an exception to the right-screen attack origin while also being a really cool Area Confinement mechanic that interacts with other elements in some way. Thanks for sharing your brainstorming!

[@FandomShifts]

Maybe if the dinamite was actually something food related, maybe that would make the themes more coherent.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

@@FandomShifts If we want the core theme to be that food theme, then yeah we should explore that rather than specifically the outlaw shootout theme.

[@FandomShifts]

@@DesignFrameCaseStudies i was more thinking it to be more suddle like there is a bit of food in each of the stages. I first thought that each of the dlc bosses had some kind of food theme to them. Your finding ingredients for a baker, the giant eats you and you fight in his stomach, the bugs are moonshiners, and the wizard becomes some kind of pie, but it doesn’t seem the food theme doesn’t really work as it seems to get dropped.

[@asierx7047]

My #1 problem on this fight has always been that the vulture comes in from the LEFT and that it happens at the same time as Esther's telegraphs. Doing this would solve both instantly

[@gavinislightning]

I know for a fact that "NOOO not the cactus" is gonna worm it's way into my vocabulary at his rate

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

I'm glad it worked 😆

[@IronVigilante451]

Same

[@MadMattLugos]

Noooo, not the area-denial-map!

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

@@MadMattLugos Yooo it's the man himself! You're awesome haha. It's a long video just to see the clips I used from your video, so thanks for watching!

[@Guiyon]

its like THE FU- THE FUCKING JELLY BEAN

[@TheAssemblyline09033]

I actually want to add on to the horsefly point. While horseflies are insect that feed on animals, and thus could be related given that ester is literally a cow, the fact that they're moving away from her is confusing. Surely they would be flying toward their meal, not away. But even if they're flying away, there would've still been ways to make it make sense, meaning there's another missed opportunity here where ester could've been visually shaking off horseflies or something similar to telegraph the fact they were attacking. The fact it's so disconnected from ester mechanically feels very strange to me.

[@axolotlfairy2473]

Why not have ester use her tail as a whip to smack the horseflies and send them careening in all different directions if you dont kill them before they get to her?

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Spot on! The important part here is orienting that train of thought. That's the kind of train of thought that Studio MDHR mostly neglected.

[@TheDragonSeer]

Or the cactus leaves spikey balls on Esther that attracts the horseflies from the right. They buzz around Esther for a second, she tries to shoo them away, and then they fly toward the player with the spikey balls in their mouths. The horse flies' mouths could be full with a puffed out cheek when flying toward the player. Then they'll squink an eye and spit as another indicator. It still doesn't make much sense, but it would tie it all together and let the player know what it happening.

[@timcellar9021]

@@TheDragonSeerwho let bro cook

[@wickthetrickster461]

I appreciate a channel like this. People tend to glaze their favorite games and bosses and exist in denial when someone brings up that they might be poorly designed... Game design is complicated and most players don't understand how to measure the worth of a design. Feeling this especially in Elden Ring's DLC, as it does a lot of Trial-and-Error.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thank you so much! That's why this channel exists, so I'm happy to read your comment! There's a ton to talk about regarding Elden Ring. I haven't played the DLC yet so I can't comment on that, but I'm not happy to hear that the DLC has even more trial & error...

[@wickthetrickster461]

@@DesignFrameCaseStudies I am currently on an alt account from my main channel but I was looking to start doing my own video essays and wanted to cover it's final boss. Would you be okay if I referenced some of the points made in this video? I think a lot of what is said is easily relevant to not just some bosses, but the DLC as a whole.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

@@wickthetrickster461 Yeah sure! I'm hoping to release some Elden Ring videos that go more in depth on certain things, but that's going to take some time haha. Feel free to share your video once it's released!

[@ryanhernandez8324]

What's "glaze" mean?

[@wickthetrickster461]

@@ryanhernandez8324 Over-compliment. Basically over hyping something or someone in a bootlicking kinda way

[@moorusfaan5464]

A 2 hour video about niche game design issues in a game I've never played? Sign me the fuck up.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thank you for being interested!

[@Looona_fan]

You should play it.

[@elmerthiendoesgames9061]

Ah yes, the "suddenly body horror" boss. Her transformation into a sausage monster might seem goofy at first glance, but it's kinda creepy when you think about it. She's basically an inside-out zombie now. That's her guts on the outside. She's coughing up slabs of her own flesh.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Lol if you break down cartoons, you might be surprised by what you find 😂

[@elmerthiendoesgames9061]

@@DesignFrameCaseStudies I blame Don't Hug Me I'm Scared for starting me on this line of thought.

[@stanbai5263]

At least I'm not the only one who found that part kinda scary (I find most of the game creepy tbh lol)

[@CsubAzUrmedve]

1:43:13 Meet Cruelty Squad. A game so bizarre and seems so random, where at first glance nothing makes sense or serve any purpose, but in reality, it's a game with intent.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

I haven't played it but I've at least seen it. That's definitely a game with a certain intent and central theme that it embraces. Good callout!

[@lwardrop2453]

You know the complexity is too much and poorly implemented when I didn’t know the Horse Flies and Wanted Posters were a thing until you isolated them visually and described their roles…

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Yeah, I didn't know the Wanted Poster was a thing either until I started planning the script for this video haha

[@MischievousCassowary]

The saloon should have been a bank instead, which would tie in with phase 2 and would make the gold-rush vulture with dynamite slightly more relevant. The explanation for the snake-oil projectile arc is probably even simpler and also worse, it's just a 90 degree gravity tilt and treats the right edge of the screen as the ground. Which considering the direction the fight is portrayed to go in, makes it even less intuitive. The spinning of the snake-oil revolver is only used as an indicator for reloading and does not happen on the first shot. Horse-flies are an actual type of fly, so in this case it's just a pun of their name. Not quite something I would immediately come up when thinking of western, but I see the association. Overall the first phase is just too overloaded with gags and references and is just not cohesive at all. Regular revolvers with some kind of special bullet would have been enough. But instead we get snake-oil, snakes, oil and revolver. Which would feel fine as a major focus and could be done more with, but next to wagon-saloon, cow-cowboy/outlaw, horse-flies, gold-rush-vulture-dynamite and a lasso-cactus is just a hodgepodge of western imagery and puns. Change the snake-oil into revolvers, the saloon to a bank and make the vulture fly in from the right in either an outlaw or striped prisoner outfit and you could then let them either still drop dynamite or a ball and chain. Now we got a clear bank shoot-out which culminates in the bank exploding and setting up phase 2.

[@breakeranimation4146]

I’m more of a fan of what we got now, but your idea ain’t too bad either.

[@BasketOfPuppies642]

I had a thought about the horseflies in the first phase: What if they were added at the last minute because the devs realized that there weren't any attacks you could parry in the phase?

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

If I remember correctly, I said in the video that the horseflies come across as a random addition to meet an arbitrary difficulty quota. So I wouldn't be surprised if you were correct.

[@grfrjiglstan]

I remember when I first made it to the third phase and thought, "Lady, stop! This isn't gonna get any better for you, and somehow I think it might even get worse!"

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

"Stop cooking yourself!" 🤣

[@lioedevon4275]

It may have problems but this level fed my cowboy hyperfixation so I love it for that

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Now imagine if the fight truly embraced its western outlaw theme! I think what we got was only a glimpse of the potential!

[@asswipe-fl7hq]

@@DesignFrameCaseStudies Aight buddy I know you're really tryna sell the "But what if it was even better" angle to people who say they liked the boss but do you have to respond like this It's like your telling someone who just likes cowboy stuff to think abt a boss in cuphead like a video essay, it almost feels like your calling people dumb without outright saying it for not being 'critical' enough

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

@@asswipe-fl7hq Or maybe I'm promoting a simple thought experiment and healthy mindset when thinking about media that we all love. The people who love something are the ones who want it to be the best that it can be, and there's nothing wrong with that. You asking someone to lower their standards of what they love about the theme and boss is the real problem. This isn't even about being "critical." I'm not even rejecting the player's preference or love for western themes. And drawing conclusions that I think players are dumb when this channel is one of the most player advocate channels out there (game design = player advocacy) is a leap in logic and an insult to the craft at large.

[@gianpierolafornara1708]

​@@DesignFrameCaseStudiesYou are right, and in some parts he's right too. You want to make people have a "healty point of wiew" and that's ok, but the comment that guy made maybe implies that he really liked the boss, and was just sharing his thoughts on it, at that point, i wouldn't go tell him "the fight could've been better because it didn't embrace etc etc" maybe he's liked something in the bossfight you didn't

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

@@gianpierolafornara1708 He liked the theme, I built upon that thought by accepting his point of view. Maybe I could have phrased it better to better convey that, but I can only do so much when responding to every comment haha. I appreciate the concern and your tact in expressing it.

[@kirbymongerr1771]

First, wanted to mention that right as my touhou player brain wanted to make a comment you actually brought up touhou, that's some great timing, kudos! Second, I feel like this boss had an issue of wanting to have it's cake and eat it too, with a complex first phase AND a multiphase joke of going from cow to canned sausage. I'd imagine Esther was meant to ramp up as her health decreased so you could get used to each attack before a new one is introduced (much like touhou introducing an idea in one spell card and ramping it up in later cards), but the fight dragged on and the later phases were obviously way shorter and simpler, so they just made phase 1 start at full force and cut the health down. Like, I could register the snake oil bullet behaivour in isolation, figure out the counterplay and then do it in response to the easier to see loop they do before coming back bigger, but with everything else coming at me that becomes infinitely harder.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Haha I'm glad you liked my Touhou reference! Yeah there's something to be said for having a whopping four phases and trying to manage them within a single boss fight. I think it's a symptom of them not having a clear idea of what they're going for, but throwing everything in instead.

[@quinntessentialskill7414]

This is an excellent video. Very thorough, educational, and well put. I'm also glad, despite being reasonably harsh towards the problems, you gave multiple examples of benefit of the doubt, and tried to find examples of the boss being positive. It might go without saying, but I find many video essays don't consider counterargument enough, and often speak using overwhelming emotion while "thrashing" what they're attempting to criticize, which can make their argument seem a bit less reasonable. Keep making what you love, and have a good day.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thank you so much for the very kind words! I'm happy to hear that you got the impression that I'm hoping for! Of course I have to be a little direct at times for the entertainment value, but my goal is to also be fair and respectful. You have a great day as well!

[@photophone5574]

1:10:49 You're the first person I've heard really argue that attacks should be reasonably telegraphed so that a person who has no experience with the fight could predict some of the incoming attacks (at least in a soulslike). That definitely would make the learning curve smoother. Which I find surprising because souslikes usually have this amazing learning curve of blocking, blocking but putting down your shield to recover stamina, and then dodging. I wonder if, over time, the priorities of developers changed from "smooth learning curve" to "raising skill floors and ceilings."

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Telegraphing is essential for an intuitive and fair challenge across the board. Even if you haven't heard much about telegraphing in general discourse, I bet you've heard of stuff like the Elden Ring community making fun of the game for its abuse of delayed attacks, which essentially comes down to purposely misleading telegraphs, which contributes to those bosses or enemies feeling more unsatisfying and frustrating to learn. I would love to go into more detail of Elden Ring's enemy design in a future video. But I digress haha.

[@darkvamps1]

@@DesignFrameCaseStudies This has been kinda eye-opening to me and interesting, as previously I would have argued the shield attack was not an example of what you've said and denied it, but idk anymore. Personally I expect the enemy to be hyper aggressive, so it was more spotting him showing his shield to me, noticing the distance between us, and expecting some form of shieldbash or at the minimum a way to close the distance. But after seeing the clip, I can see now why someone could fairly feel like there was nothing to react to, because the fight/surrounding enemies themselves haven't done any direct teaching of expecting shieldbashing and distance closing. I only pieced together what was coming because of by chance building some level of expectation from unrelated enemies and from different games entirely, which probably isn't a great way to design a very quick attack on an enemy that does some damage. I don't mind most of the delayed attacks as they were weirdly intuitive, but man there really are a few suuuuper delayed attacks that you can't learn until you've seen it already.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

@@darkvamps1 I'm super glad to see that you find the topic interesting and eye-opening and that I seem to have spurred you to think more about the topic! I think that means I've done well in these crazy videos haha. Thanks for sharing! I appreciate you!

[@cookies_and_mustard6414]

While I do enjoy this fight, I completely understand why it’s hard for newcomers and can be visually and thematically confusing. Phase 1 for instance. If you understand what you are doing, it isn’t the worst thing ever. However if it’s your first time fighting, it’s too much to fully comprehend. You’d probably die a few times before figuring things out. They could have done better with this. When the fight starts, Esther should only use the snake oil and cactus attack. That gets players used to the basic attacks and it isn’t overwhelming. Then they could slowly introduce the dynamite and horsefly attacks. I’m a huge Cuphead fan and love this game to death. Even though I may not like hearing negative stuff about the game, I heavily appreciate you being as honest and fair with critiquing the game. We can’t just say that the game is perfect, we need to acknowledge when things don’t work and how we can fix it. Keep up the good work!

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

And that's exactly the point! For a player's initial experience, during the learning process, Phase 1 is a nightmare. It takes a while of hitting your head against the boss before you can start to beat it. Instead of introducing everything in pieces, really what the boss needs is for each element to make sense as a cohesive whole, because then it becomes much more intuitive to learn and process. Thank you for being so open minded and sharing your thoughts with me! I appreciate you!

[@ShyGuyXXL]

I can't believe we didn't get a backstory for the Vulture and Esther's relationship, for the 30 seconds they're on screen together!

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

LOL yeah, we demand LORE

[@d.gravy19thebilly-goatmand25]

IMO, had the Cuphead Show not been written off for tax reasons (cheers, Netflix), I feel like there would have been an episode about them or a part of it dedicated to their lore. Now, it probably wasn't conceptualized during the show's production and then was canned due to the write off, but I imagine it would've gotten to conceptualization in future seasons, had the show lived to see the Delicious Last Course.

[@A_Surpluss_of_Stupidity]

This definitely fixed the problem of repetition! You still said the same thing multiple times but you made more jokes or said them differently every time wich definitely helped!

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

I'm very happy to hear that! Thank you!

[@asswipe-fl7hq]

@@DesignFrameCaseStudies I don't think that was supposed to be a compliment...

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

@@asswipe-fl7hq It definitely was, my friend. Good writing includes repetition. It's about how that repetition is used. Your response here, along with the other comment that I replied to, shows me that you're looking to chisel out faint cracks in comments that you can form arbitrary criticisms or personal attacks from rather than taking a good faith stance or perception. You seemingly deliberately ignored the part where they said, "this definitely fixed the problem of repetition." Does that mean there isn't additional room for improvement and growth? Of course not. This video would've been 3 hours long if I didn't care about my community and take constructive feedback seriously enough to address it as best as I can (in the context of the length of my previous Doggone video, even though the topics are different, but you get the point).

[@A_Surpluss_of_Stupidity]

@@asswipe-fl7hq it was meant to be a compliment, id commented on a previous video providing criticism of it that he repeated things multiple times and I didn't feel it was as repetitive in this one I said a positive thing and all you're doing is trying to find some nonexistent negativity within it, not a fan

[@A_Surpluss_of_Stupidity]

@@asswipe-fl7hq it wasn't sarcasm, I had commented on a previous video about how I thought it was a bit repetitive and when Design frame took it heart and actually made improvements, I complimented him and said how the repetition was no longer as apparent. Emotion is a really hard thing to get through text and sarcasm is one of the hardest so its not a good idea to assume any text you see is sarcastic as you have near zero way of knowing.... you should also try to maybe not assume the worst? Please?

[@professionallayabout5024]

This is such a great video that kind of gets at my feelings on the DLC bosses! They felt different in a -weird- way, but I wasn't attentive to the design language of the fights, so there was just this nebulous feeling I couldn't verbalize before this.

[@professionallayabout5024]

Also, very easy idea that I'm kinda half stitching together from other comments; make the saloon a bank, have clearer theme-connected attacks in first phase, basically tidy and gussy up second phase since it's coherent enough (just needs dusting)...And *maybe* connect the pivot from outlaw to meat with the throughline/visual pun of sausage links as chain links? 3rd phase could be something like Esther held by sausage on a chain-gang like outfit, since of course the law's caught up to her - her cooker that she stole from the cops has a mind of its own! Then, in a bit of a macabre suggestion; maybe tie into the "wanted, dead or alive" poster at the beginning of the fight using her skull and her links as a ball and chain weapon, tying into that classic image of balled prisoners and cow skulls on the western front.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thank you so much for the kind words! I'm always happy to hear that people can use my videos to put into words their feelings behind the games they play. It means I'm doing my job correctly :)

[@atlasdwyer8220]

When the analysis for the 2nd of 4 phases starts over an hour into the video, you know it’s going to be a good video

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Haha I'm glad you think so! Phase 1 is lengthy but I try to keep the topics dense and flowing. Thank you for watching :)

[@crimsonDestroyer]

One thing that I think really would've helped the thematic cohesion of the fight is if there was something similar to Moonshine Mob's fight going on. In Moonshine Mob, there are police officers who are also fighting the boss(es), but end up serving as hazards to you. So, have there be, like, a bunch of sheriffs trying to catch Esther throughout the fight. Then, the separate attacks coming from inexplicable other NPCs would make sense - those would be the sheriffs. And the transition from the first half of the fight to the second, food-themed half could open with them actually catching her and throwing her into the pressure cooker, instead of her just getting sucked in for no discernible reason. It's a minor touch, but I feel like it would help the whole thing make a lot more sense.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Moonshine Mob's 1st phase does such an excellent job establishing its theme. I think in Esther's case, perhaps it makes more sense to treat Cuphead as the sheriff (maybe even give Cuphead a cowboy hat lol), but I like the brainstorming!

[@BasketOfPuppies642]

6:28 I legitimately had to rewatch this scene 4 times to see what hit them.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

LOL I tried to zoom in a little on a couple of the horsefly ones. It really is almost impossible to notice while actively playing.

[@notcute-qh8og]

I love how educational these videos are, it helps feels like they're truly impartial and they're not just spouting things left and right, but rather that they actually took the time to carefully dive into every game they cover and analyse what their issues are. The length of them is nice too, it makes them great background noise after the initial watch lmao

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thank you so much for the kind words :)

[@Tutorllini]

If you do not watch this video - you have no one to Design Blame but yourself.

[@jupitermonkey5687]

The "too much stuff on the screen with not enough tell" is a problem that appears often in Cuphead. The visuals are amazing but I don't think they reached a good compromise between visuals & gameplay.

[@LimeEffy]

I remember almost vomited when I played High-noon hoopla for the first time. I thought it's because I haven't played Cuphead in a while, but the rest of the game itself never did that to me. Thank you for this video, as someone who is constantly learning game development I gotta absorb these kinds of knowledge and insight

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Oh my goodness, I really wish there were clips of youtubers almost vomiting from playing this boss, that would've been the perfect demonstration of the visuals hahaha. Thanks for sharing, and go make something awesome!

[@C_LT_Classic]

was literally JUST thinking about this series the DAY before you uploaded this! Your scheduling is on point!

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

I'm honored that you'd think of me! 😁

[@stanbai5263]

This video is so long that KZbin paused it to see if I was still watching. I was

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

LOL is that a new KZbin feature? I haven't had that happen to me before.

[@screamingcactus1753]

If you wanted to push the whole "outlaw on the run and running out of options" theme, I could see a three stage fight where Esther starts in the saloon, then mounts a horse when the saloon is destroyed, then a moving jail falls on her and she spends the rest of the fight attacking you from behind bars. Maybe they could have repurposed the left side attacks into the last phase to show Esther's gang coming to try to break her out. I could even see a mechanic for the last phase where her outlaw buddies try to ride or fly past you to smuggle her weapons, which would result in her unleashing a dangerous attack if you don't stop them in time. These new outlaws would also be how you deal damage in this phase since Esther is already behind bars.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

That's a cool idea to explore!

[@redmagpie1761]

It didnt occur to me how intense Esther is until you showed the clips of the Robot fight. I remember him being considered one of the hardest bosses in the base game, and compared to Esther, he looks so slow and managable.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

I'm glad the example worked for you :)

[@ishitmypant]

to be fair, i feel like most people (including me) struggle with his last phase the most, where he laughs and shoots out like a billion lasers while walls slowly close up on you. it's definitely not as hard as esther but it's not as easy as phase 1 makes it out to be.

[@elfrangofrito]

I actually strongly disagree with ONE point you made: That the elevation system in Phase 3 does not matter. You argue that the player will never choose to take a risk to deal more consistent damage if they can just focus on avoiding attacks which is safer, and while I agree this is the case for newcomers... there's one big reason why at least *some* players would try to follow the boss no matter how risky that could be, and that's getting the A+/S rank. An A+ on Regular and an S on Expert require you to beat the boss in less than two minutes, and taking risky paths to deal more consistent damage on phase 3 could be a good way to do so. (I'm not sure, I've never played the DLC, just vanilla Cuphead) I think this video could genuinely benefit from being analysed from an S-ranking perspective, since it's an intended challenge the game has, and as such, an approach that should've been absolutely taken into account by the devs.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Yeah, that was one thing I thought about while editing the video, but ultimately that was just a minor exception / counterargument to how the elevation system didn't matter that I wanted to tackle in my usual excessive manner haha. The primary points still apply -- how the attacks don't interact with the player differently based on the elevation. They're all completely static mechanics/systems. HOWEVER, I do agree that I should've at least mentioned the possible S-Rank time pressure, but HOWEVER again haha, if I would've thought of that point during writing, I would've tested it to make sure that the time pressure applied to Phase 3 was a noticeable time difference or not. I unfortunately don't have that data because of an oversight, but you're right that I should've tested for it, even though I honestly don't think that changes the outcome of Phase 3's verdict. Ultimately, it would've been a minor factor that only applies to ranking, as opposed to the major factors that apply to the whole phase. I don't mean to downplay your very good observation here, but I hope that makes sense. Thank you for taking the time to share! I appreciate you! Very good observation 🙂

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

As a side note, I do believe the rest of the video applies to both non-ranking and ranking perspectives. I normally do try and account for as much as I can!

[@monsieurliquorice]

HONEY WAKE UP, DESIGN FRAME POSTED A NEW CUPHEAD VIDEO

[@atlanticherring6763]

I have an idea for how to possibly improve this fight 1st, take advantage of that "Outlaws being compressed further and further" theme AND the greedy snake oil salesman theme. Swap around Phase 1 and 2, start fighting Ester on the run, vacuuming up money even while being chased by the law. At Phase 2 she finds a saloon, hops into it, and uses it as a kinda armour/hideout thing as she runs. Small detour for this phase, everything is coming out of or around the saloon. Obviously, the snake oil is being fired. But on other notes: - The vulture (which yes vultures are pretty big in Western Themes, like a vulture circling over a person lost in the West is one of the first that come to mind) is pushed out of the saloon by Ester with a bit of a kerfuffle. Maybe include the vulture in Phase 1 somehow to show they are partners in crime if you really want the vulture to connect to the Greedy Snake oil thing. The struggle to force it out by Ester gives a nice window of telegraphy, then it flies by and drops the dynamite. - The cactus I really think just needs a longer and clearer telegraph, maybe have Ester lasso it across the screen, show a 1-2-tug to show it's taking a bit and show "Hey this area is about to be rammed by a cactus. - Finally, the Horsefly, honestly no idea, that one just kinda sucks. BUT something that I think you didn't realize is that the Horsefly isn't just a random mashing of horses and flies. A horsefly is an actual type of fly, a giant one that annoys horses. Anyways Phase 2 ends, maybe throughout the phase the saloon is getting more and more damaged visually until it full on catches fire, explodes, and cooks Ester into the sausages. I can't even think of how to rework the existing Phase 3 into something that fits this, but it's just making sure that it actually fits the OG theme and not just "She's food now!". I think Phase 4 is fine enough though.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Regarding the comments on the general western theme, like the vulture being big in western themes, refer to my pinned comment. I should've been a bit clearer on that in the video. Regarding the rest, I like how you're brainstorming for the more honed-in themes, like the outlaw shootout and land compression. I honestly love the idea that the building catches fire and cooks her. There are a lot of ideas people brainstorm but I genuinely think that's spot on in terms of a satisfying (and hilarious) narrative arc. Of course, the problem then becomes how to recontextualize the last phase (assuming we're only having three phases) into something that fits really well, perhaps some kind of resolution of prison time in some surrealist way. Two phases may even be enough, so being cooked by the building becomes a hilarious ending scene. I don't think there's a need for Studio MDHR to push a bunch of phases if they can instead flesh out the current ones. Anyway, thanks for sharing! I appreciate you!

[@breakeranimation4146]

I personally don’t see what’s so hard about the cactus, you can clearly see her pulling something that’s out of frame, so why would you still be close to the thing she’s pulling?

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

@@breakeranimation4146 For why one would be close to the cactus, the section on area confinement / area denial zones would explain that. But I'm assuming you're more worried about how the cactus has a good telegraph, and I do say that in the video regarding "affordance." The telegraph is only _lightly_ misleading, which could be great, but when built on top of existing chaos, it tends to compound on that chaos. So you could say it's a sufficient telegraph stuck in a chaotic boss. I hope that makes sense!

[@Youwillseesomething]

My friend said he couldn’t beat this level because of the first phase alone. He had to do the Djimmi 9 lives trick on it to barely pass by. Also I originally thought the cactus shot needles off to the sides because it kinda looked like it with the motion blur and I got hit by something I didn’t notice. (Probably a horsefly projectile.)

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Yeah it really does take a while to stop feeling overwhelmed by the unhinged chaos haha. It took much hitting my head against the wall to be able to learn it. Thanks for sharing! I like hearing others' experiences.

[@TheThirdParty35]

The cactus actually does throw out needles they just don’t hurt you.

[@mageoflife2855]

Alright. So i may be fully applying context that wasn’t intended to this boss. But i think the thematic base for her becoming a sausage is the progression of technology. She starts out with the most classic symbols of being an outlaw, the snake oil revolvers, the saloon, and has a lot of use of animals. The second phase, there are no animals, and she is using technology to her advantage. The third, she becomes a victim to the technology, unable to escape and is “cooked”. The fourth, she remains unable to return to being an outlaw, but her identity as an outlaw is now a part of the marketability of the sausages. The wild west is no longer a real place but rather the historical idea of the wild west with the very real issues becoming nothing more than the image

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

I appreciate the effort, but it feels like a stretch to me haha, or at least it's not conveyed very well through the boss. I think an idea that's related, and maybe what you're talking about here that I misunderstood, is western industrialization, like I showed with RDR2 clips. I could see that as part of the food progression, but it's not really fully embraced as a theme.

[@Goat0423]

It’s really nice to see a Cuphead discussion that actually addresses bad game design instead of just boiling down to “Skill issue, challenge is art” you’re pretty brave to criticize the game known to be “Hard” as a critical aspect given I’ve never seen anyone dare to ever touch this game or argue against it.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thank you very much! That's one of my goals for this channel since there are many popular games that people don't touch in terms of genuine game design so I'm glad you're enjoying it and that the effort is worth it :) One secret in terms of Cuphead being "known to be hard" is that I establish Studio MDHR's intended difficulty in the first Cuphead DLC video so that I don't have to argue difficulty, since that's a huge topic that deserves its own video. Fairness and cohesive design are incredibly important on their own. Anyway, thanks for watching! I appreciate you!

[@Goat0423]

⁠I will admit, the only thing I did question was how a cactus isn’t western enough, but a vacuum is, though I get the correlation of outlaws stealing gold and the like, it’s just if you asked me if a cactus or a vacuum is more associated with the Wild West theme I’d say the cactus, but If that’s the biggest qualm I can find that’s not bad at all.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

@@Goat0423 For clarification on the western theme, I'll point you to the pinned comment FAQ #1. Hopefully that helps :)

[@dustrose8101]

YESSS!!! DESIGN FRAME UPLOAD ON MORE CUPHEAD WOOOO!!!

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

I hope you enjoy it! I think I've addressed the concerns from the last video :)

[@dustrose8101]

@@DesignFrameCaseStudies I just finished the video and it's stellar work as always, Shawn. I don't always notice stuff like how unnecessarily busy the boss stage is because I'm usually just a spectator to the gameplay, so to have it cracked open by you is always a treat. Just like with your FNAF vid, your work helps me notice or put into words things about other games that I would either not notice or wouldn't be able to verbalize otherwise. Always appreciate the amount of work you put into these videos and I patiently await the next. :3

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

@@dustrose8101 Thank you so much! I really appreciate your kind words :) It means a lot!

[@darwinspain4831]

Your cuphead criticisms continue to be fair and well though out good job 👍

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thank you so much!

[@lilysm6382]

This series is exactly the content I come to the internet for. Always happy to see you've posted.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thank you so much Catherine! I'm grateful that you enjoy the content!

[@peon9584]

5:13 Why did you split the multi-step attacks into seperate things? There will never be a time where Esther would shoot snake oil in between her lasso swing to cactus pull, the whole point of the lasso is that it's the beggining of the cactus attack. You don't count the lasso and the cactus seperately, they're the same thing. Once you apply the same logic to the whole list, there's only 4 things on it. If you kept the lasso, horsefly, vulture, and snake oil but made everything else black boxes you could predict the exactly what those boxes will do because you saw their first cue.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

They're all game elements. Not attacks. I talk about them as attacks later.

[@guydudething2795]

Honestly extremely underrated channel, wasn't expecting such a low sub and view count from the quality presented here

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thank you so much! I appreciate you!

[@guydudething2795]

@@DesignFrameCaseStudies I appreciate you for making such high quality content! :D

[@luckyloomagu]

You went on about the whole "gotcha" mechanic thing, and I offer a counterpoint -- I believe the most important thing about gotcha mechanics isn't what they are, but what they mean. For example, Kingdom Hearts has this mechanic called 'revenge value' where, essentially, if you combo a boss for too long, they'll retaliate with an attack that is most of the time going to come out faster than your attack can end, a 'guarenteed' hit that can easily lead into their other attacks if done at a poor time. This is, for all intents and purposes, the same as a gotcha mechanic, it's something with no telegraph that the player cannot possibly expect, however, what it means is far more important here, as the revenge value tells the player 'you cannot simply perform your full combo against the boss over and over again.' This changes how the player interacts with the entire fight, going from 'finding the opening then mashing the button' to 'finding the opening, then maximizing the damage I can deal within it.' This can also change how players interact with entire systems -- Limits and Magic often don't trigger revenge values, so players can notice that and go "Oh, at the end of my combo I can add a few casts of magic or a limit break to deal even more damage with my limited window" I think the big thing here is that gotcha mechanics are frustrating. Frustration is a very very dangerous emotion to play with in game design, too much frustration and your players won't want to stick through to the end, too little frustration and players might feel as though they have everything handed to them. I think frustrating mechanics are healthy for game design, but have to be handled with a lot more care than other similar mechanics, you can't just 'throw in a bit of a curveball' without having it make sense in the overall view of the game. Revenge value works because while you'll get hit by it once then rarely ever again, you learn a lesson from it, it's not just there to slap you on your first time through.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thanks for bringing this up! Hopefully I'm understanding you correctly. I didn't get into the flip side of Trial & Error in this video, but I would define the flip side as Experimentation. It seems like you're saying that the revenge value system can lead to proper player experimentation to learn and then use that new knowledge to improve. I haven't played Kingdom Hearts so I can't comment on whether the mechanic is presented in a fair or unfair way, but all I can really say is that the system can be conveyed in a fair way to the player without affecting the engagement factor behind the system. So even if the system is great, the means by which players learn about that system is really what we're talking about here. So I think what you're emphasizing here is that a "gotcha" depends on the result, but even if the vulture was an amazing element with great depth and engagement, that depth/engagement doesn't change the fact that there is no telegraph. Once the "gotcha" happens, then the lesson has already been learned, but in a more frustrating way than it should have been, which is separate from the rest of the mechanic/system. If I'm understanding you correctly, it sounds like to me that little mix-up makes you think that frustration can be healthy for game design, and I honestly don't think that's the case. Though, of course, a designer/dev who understands the rules of frustration may be able to break them, but as with anything, that's an exception rather than the rule. I hope that makes sense! Thanks for taking the time to share!

[@luckyloomagu]

@@DesignFrameCaseStudies I get you, and by all means, I do think the vulture was poorly implemented, particularly because of one big factor; there's nothing that 'causes' the vulture. I think frustration can be implemented into games primarily because I think frustration itself is a complicated emotion that can have a lot of different forms. I think that the cause of frustration should always be very clear and communicated, and that if a mechanic causes frustration, there should be a way to work around it. As I said with the revenge value argument, there are ways you can approach a fight that mitigate or ignore the mechanic entirely, which presents a form of catharsis. Another example of this, I would say, is mending from minecraft, it's incredible strong, but it removes one of the biggest sources of frustration from the game, meaning that obtaining it is very tempting and rewarding. When it comes to the vulture specifically, it has no telegraph, there's no reward for killing it, and it passes by on a timer that's invisible to the player. Effectively, this means that a major source of frustration in the fight is entirely uninteractive, you'll never get that sense of catharsis until you go into the next phase, but by that point it's not a feeling of 'oh I'm glad I don't have to deal with that anymore' it's a feeling of 'geeze, that was a lot to keep track of.' If, say, killing the vulture put a pause on its return timer for a while, or if it only came by after a specific pattern or player action, then I would struggle to call it poorly designed even if wasn't telegraphed, since you could learn ways to mitigate its effect on the battle overall. However, in its current state, it offers nothing more than a thorn in your side that you can't do anything about. Shifting gears here, obviously it's bad design to introduce frustration arbitrarily in order to hand out ways around it as a reward, think 'stamina upgrades' in games where sprinting costs stamina, but I do believe that these hurdles, provided they exist for a reason, can elevate an experience rather than drag it down. I think it's personal preference whether that feeling of 'catharsis' is worth the struggle, many people don't particularly care for games which market themselves entirely on that feeling. For me, catharsis is a very strong reason why I play some games, and without the frustration in place to make that feeling stronger, I don't think I would enjoy them as much. Thank you for taking the time to reply to me! Game design is a topic I have a lot of interest in but very little experience, so I might not be very clear or concise with my wording

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

@@luckyloomagu I think the main thing you're talking about here is ways to mitigate or bandage bad design, which you admit when you shift gears. When you speak of catharsis, my first thought goes to the most common example of Dark Souls. Everyone always says how great it feels to best a challenge in DS, which I think aligns with what you're saying regarding catharsis, but there's a key point here. DS is still fair. Even when people need to take a break to refresh, the challenge process itself almost never feels frustrating, because the game is both fair and you always feel like you're improving in some way. This can be applied to really any game that has a challenge structure. As soon as one of those two factors falter, then we start coming across situations where that catharsis becomes tainted.

[@luckyloomagu]

@@DesignFrameCaseStudies Agreed. Sorry if my rambling was unclear or hard to follow at points, but that was the main thing I was trying to point to. My usage of 'frustrating' might be better described as, obstinate? Perhaps frustration wasn't the right emotion I was singling out. Thank you for being understanding, and this followup conversation helped me understand more clearly the point that you were making!

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

@@luckyloomagu Thank you for commenting and being open minded! I enjoy thinking and talking about these things :) At least until my comment sections become too much to handle haha

[@SjaeDanmark]

"Ermm, this thing SUCKS actually!" *Literally the coolest thing ever*

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Hey there! There's nothing wrong with finding the boss fun, but your enjoyment of something doesn't mean it is without flaw nor does it change objective flaws. If you truly like this fight, then you would also agree that we want to see Studio MDHR and the industry improve as they continue to make games. I provide the evidence and means to do so in the behind-the-scenes game design space, and I hope you find value in that! Thanks for watching!

[@iluxius8216]

Dude I don’t even play cuphead, but you’ll be damned sure to know that I listened to this entire video

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thank you so much! I'm glad you enjoyed it. You're awesome :)

[@hackplayer7194]

Upon reaching the DLC's credits, I was surprised to see Esther working and serving food within a saloon, making me realize in the process that she's the boss I knew the absolute least about in Isle 4. Every other boss has so much worldbuilding and cool details in their battles, with some of them like The Howling Aces and Glumstone The Giant having connections to base game bosses, but Esther? We're given nearly nothing on her character or her role in the world of Cuphead because half of her fight is just turning into sausages, as funny as it may be. I wish the sausage-fest was restricted to just the final phase.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Very well said!

[@dali-dog]

Epic video. Even as somebody who loves really long videos I was surprised to see a video that’s 2 hours long for a single boss fight. It was damn good though, and now I totally get why it was so long. You go super in depth. Interested in checking out your other cuphead videos :)

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thank you so much! That's very kind of you :)

[@butchcassidy887]

Respectfully: You're wrong 😊 Nothing gets "lost in the clutter". Telegraphs are properly visible. This is a 2 hour rant over nothing. The contrast between gameplay assets and the background is fine. If you actually cannot distinguish the projectiles, even the small cactus balls, from the background, that's not the devs' fault, you just need glasses. I agree that the contrast COULD and SHOULD be better, but you just can't use that as your main focal point. It's not a gamedesign fault, it's a "lemme change the saturation of this a couple a hex digits up" fault. The western theme is not translated well into the fight? What is that even supposed to mean? Did we play the same game? What study even suggests this? Of COURSE the theme is translated well into gameplay. Just as an example I will use the lasso move. If the player registers the lasso-swing animation, which you actively called "distracting", which is GOOD as a TELEGRAPH needs to GRAB YOUR ATTENTION, they will always expact that lasso to be thrown and get out of the way. Who cares if the big cactus comes in from the other side. They will be out of the way anyways. Additionally, the theme being dropped following the 2nd phase is, again, not a flaw in the slightest, as now there are only 3 assets to keep track of. Flipping the theme in an unexpected way is a massive strength of the fight, it would lose out on a lot of memorability without it. I really wanted to hear out your arguments. But when literally all of your points lack their very foundation it's hard for me not to get frustrated. I know my comment is ranty and stereotypical, but you are practically picking a fight with everyone that gives 2 cents about quality in boss design.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Telegraphs are not all sufficient. That's a fact and demonstrated, with plenty of evidence and objective design principles. Length is not an argument. The contrast is a problem and you seem to admit it anyway. Regardless, I didn't say that it was the primary issue with the visual chaos. For the broad western theme, please refer to the pinned comment FAQ #1. I call the lasso/cactus "misleading" because that's what it is by definition, but I don't say that those "misleading telegraphs" are bad by themselves. I even praise them later for the reason of affordance. More on this in the pinned comment FAQ #2. Theme and number of assets aren't related. Losing memorability isn't true. It's a common fallacy to think that good design takes away aspects like memorability and fun. You will instead receive more of what you like. Besides, Esther doesn't flip the theme, it changes the theme. It is a weakness. If what you want is surprise, then there are plenty of much more satisfying ways to do that. This video is the most game design centric case study that you'll see for the Cuphead DLC, which includes game design fundamentals. I hope I've helped clarify the misunderstandings. If you're curious about the underlying boss structure fundamentals, I cover that in extensive detail in the previous Doggone video. Thanks for watching, I appreciate you!

[@bhupindersohal4972]

Something something early gang comment about a 2-hour video I couldn't have possibly watched in less than 20 minutes

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

You're quite the speed watcher 👀

[@funkey6737]

I disagree with so many points made in this video, i would type a paragraph but no one is going to see this so ima just say skill issues and call it a day

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Good thing I provide plenty of evidence! I'd be happy to address any potential disagreements.

[@GravityBouncer]

wow i had no idea people hated this fight. I loved this one, i don't even enjoy western themes but the music was composed with such genius and the fight felt like a good amount of difficulty. I'm not the best at these games, but after some losses on each boss i did manage to 300% the game. offering some counter points, many air stages have much more going on and have harder visuals. i had more trouble on Aviary Action and Junkard Jive. the best way to beat these levels is to stare not at your character per say, but the general screen. after a few attempts the first phase is like a fun dance. i believe the western theme actually benefitted from the "break" in theme. adding the runaway scene as if it was a wild western style chase scene was fun, the last phase is weird but i mean cuphead isnt serious so, i dont see the argument? its based off the creative rubberhose cartoon style, ofc there'll be tons of goofy and weird things "breaking theme." I think the issue here is believing there's a need for a strictly boxed theme in the first place. I also am confused to an extent, how would you view genres known for difficult challenges that most likely require attempts? i don't see how a design could be docked for mystery "gotcha" elements when, especially for cuphead, its basically a challenging boss guantlet. if the bosses were easy enough, the game would be 5 hours long. but instead theyre complex and feel great to beat and learn, these "gotcha" things are there cause they get you at first (just like most elements kinda do in a more difficult game like this) and then remain as a tiny extra bit of difficulty. you mention from soft but, they have very simlar elements that end up needing you to constantly die to learn or coming out of nowhere and feeling like an unfair kill. i think its unfair to meet opinions with "haha skill issue" so i wont say its that, i see some of the points, but idk. i def disagree, peak level imo

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

For the cartoon surreal stuff: pinned comment FAQ #1. Difficulty isn't a topic that's covered in this series. I briefly mention difficulty in the first DLC episode so that I could establish Studio MDHR's design intent. Gotchas and transparency of information and telegraphing are all part of the learning process, which isn't related to difficulty or challenge. Trial & Error also isn't the same as experimentation, where the player experiments with fair elements. Dark Souls 1 became popular because, despite its difficulty, it's a fair game. Constantly dying isn't related to this. All that matters is the cause and the underlying design.

[@obitosenju3768]

I did not expect the streamer text to be using font from Hylics 1. That is so cool tho

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Hey, thanks for watching! I do use Hylia Serif in the very last section with the "Listen" text, but otherwise, the streamer text is called Bangers.

[@imconfused6955]

You put a lot of effort into these. Even down to details like making sure the narration sounds enthusiastic. Its awesome. Great work!

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thank you very much! I'm glad you enjoyed it :)

[@bereth8541]

This was first video from this channel that I watched and I have not played cuphead at all, yet still had no problems understanding each point. In fact the video is so well made that it made me other cuphead DLC case studies as well. Like the structure of the video and how it ties together previously introduced concepts to overview the bossfight as a whole and suggest more ideas at the end. Thus said it feels like these concepts are part of some bigger concept/idea and were discussed only in the light of the game design philosophy of Cuphead. Are there any resources discussing such concepts or they were developed from your experince of analysing games?

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Welcome and thank you for the kind words! I'm glad to hear you were able to understand each point no problem. Most people find me through my FNaF video, so I'm happy to hear you found me from my newest one! I'm always trying to learn more from playing games and reading books and such, but a lot of it is from experience. I'll try to distill some takeaway concepts for you here. Hopefully this helps! For bigger takeaway concepts, any big topic can be applied to most games, such as complexity, depth, theme (unifying theme), core mechanics (or the idea of elements working toward a common goal or having a foundation). Those are big focuses for this Cuphead DLC series. Some people will have variations of the definitions I've used, which is why I generally come up with one that makes the most sense to me and can be easily understood, or at least that's my goal. For Unifying Theme, I took that definition from the book The Art of Game Design, as I say in the previous video. There's also Trial & Error, which is partly from my experience since I personally think a lot of people apply too broad of a definition to Trial & Error or at least think of it in a more favorable light than it should be when applied to games, and to help fix that I took that broader definition/perception and separated it into Trial & Error and Experimentation. I did that in preparation for this video but it didn't actually make it into the video haha, so I'd like to make a separate video on that. Anyway, I think the biggest takeaway here is how Skill and Knowledge play into the player experience in games. The Fundamentals of Mastery chapter in this video (plus Trial & Error and Failure to Telegraph) applies to any mastery-based game, which is basically any game that requires players to learn and improve in some way, whether skill or knowledge. Or any time I mention something in relation to how Cuphead is a mastery-based game. And lastly, the structure detailed in the previous video applies to multiphase challenges, or extended challenges in general depending on the game. I did put together the four structural guidelines purely from my own experience, but I'm sure you can extract concepts from it and see what's out there. I'm still learning constantly, so it's a journey for me as well. Hopefully that helps some. One thing that's worth bearing in mind (and maybe why you're not quite sure on the takeaways outside of Cuphead) is how I think game design is best described as a web, so it's complex and depends a lot on the context surrounding it. As you saw, I'm also consulting now (I'm working on the new website, hopefully coming soon), so if you're looking for someone else's fresh perspective on something you're working on, then there's that open to you. Thanks again for watching! I appreciate you!

[@bereth8541]

@@DesignFrameCaseStudies thank you for such detailed response! I may have overlooked the moment where you referred to the book in the previous video, since there's so much interesting information going on in the video. I will definitely check out the book. As for consulting I will give it a try once I start working on my game. I admire your passion and it gives me motivation to keep working too! Thank you again for compiling all the concepts! I think videos discussing game design concepts from you would be interesting to see in the future, but they might not fit for the channel. Either way I will be looking for the next game design case study video from you!

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

@@bereth8541 Thank you for the kind words! I'm glad my passion is noticeable! I'm also trying to put together a free How to Get Started living document for the new website I'm putting together, so you may find that useful if you're just starting out (and Pirate Software's develop.games website), but the best advice is always to keep making games and get something out there! Experience is your best friend! As for the book, I don't remember if I actually put the book title in the video, but it was the on-screen quote by the author Jesse Schell. I should've clarified that.

[@TheCreativeType]

So, what you’re saying (about the snake oil and depth) is that, if the snake oil had another attack primarily tied to it (in that is occurred at the same time) that forced you to get down and dirty with the trajectories of the snake oil projectiles, and then the player could develop skill masterly by learning how to avoid one attack while also avoiding the other, then the snake oil would’ve had depth?

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Basically, depth (interaction between elements) is required for there to be mastery potential in the first place. Every element or attack interacts with the player, so we have a small amount of mastery potential from that. Then as we create depth and a cohesive challenge, the mastery potential rises so that the game is no longer shallow with low replayability. If you've heard of the "skill floor" and "skill ceiling," what you really want is a low skill floor (relatively low complexity and low barrier of entry for new players) but a high skill ceiling (relatively high depth that experienced players can master and new players can strive for). With that in mind, we can break that down into smaller pieces, such as the skill in Dark Souls of timing your attack to hit the enemy without getting damaged yourself. If you think about everything that the player has to consider when engaging with that skill, the skill has more to it than mindlessly swinging your weapon. This might be too vague of an example, but I hope that makes sense. So yeah, basically you're on the right track with how the goal of depth or a high skill ceiling is to create more opportunities to learn and improve skills and to encourage the player to express those skills. For example, we can say that Esther should've focused on skills related to area-confinement or area-denial (or elevation-changes, but let's ignore that one), such as "dodging attacks within a confined space." With that core skill in mind, the snakes become a perfect opportunity to create new opportunities for the player to express that core skill. An example from the video is becoming trapped in between the two snakes. If the player fails to dodge those snakes, their punishment is to be within a confined space (trapped between the two snakes, assuming we extend the snakes out horizontally), and now we can use this opportunity to have the player dodge attacks within a confined space (core skill). We want to create these kinds of opportunities by having the attacks interact with each other (depth). Also, as a side note here, notice how we didn't punish the player for failing to dodge the snakes by dealing damage to them. Normally in Cuphead, if you fail to express a skill, you lose health. But here, we have an opportunity to instead build on the skill that we want the player to express. The punishment instead becomes a more difficult "second chance" attack (by second chance, I just mean the player has an opportunity to avoid taking damage from their failure/mistake). So the takeaway here is that we need to look for design opportunities for skill expression, so players can express the skills that the boss is all about. Anyway, I know I went on a couple tangents, but I hope that at least helps you a little. I'm sure I'll be going into this kind of stuff a lot more in future videos as well, like Elden Ring, so I hope you stick around if you're interested!

[@FlyFox10O1]

Came across this and went through it before looking at the runtime beforehand, and a couple times i though i had accidentally starting something over. You make very good analysis on the game design, but it feels like you go over the same points several times but in different ways, which isn't bad necessarily but you could work on condensing your points better or rearranging them by element rather than by principle so it doesn't feel as repetitive, as is I kind of felt like the same point about the vulture and the dynamite was being made over and over, so maybe analysing game elements one by one could give your videos better phasing. Overall great content though

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

I agree that there's an element of that in the last two DLC videos but this one is pretty dense with every instance of repeating info being brief to make sure we're on the same page, or the info is different. If you have any particular examples, I'd be happy to look into it! Either way though, I appreciate you! Thanks for watching!

[@K4_is_gaming]

i love how it took you two thirds of the whole video to get past phase one

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Lol yeah that's the biggest section, but it's also dense with topics (which also carry over to the shorter phases 2, 3, 4). Thanks for watching and I hope you enjoyed it!

[@UUhm_1dk]

OMG YOU POSTED ANOTHER VIDEO! I absolutely love your analysis on cuphead and Little Nightmares which has me wondering if you will do one for Little Nightmares 2? You said in a comment you would but have u gotten to it yet? I'll be patiently waiting

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

I'm happy to see people excited for my videos! Thank you! And yes, there are a lot of sequels and DLCs that I've promised from my old videos... at least I have the Cuphead DLC "done." I'd love to do LM2, but I'm also now being forced to consider what people will actually click on and watch, which limits me to which games I can choose. I hope that makes sense. Maybe I can talk about LM2 in some kind of topic video.

[@squirrelfart275]

Great video! Well-formed, justified, and good-faith arguments, with a boatload of insight to accompany them, same with the first video. I really liked how you focused on counterarguments and weren't overly negative in your analysis. I especially agree wholeheartedly with your dismantling of the "gotcha!" moments in a ludic/gameplay perspective, and of misleading telegraphs in general. The sentiment on "designing around failure" also really resonated with me too. Speaking of that, I'd love if you made that Elden Ring video sometime, but I guess I'll have to be patient lol Also, Touhou mentioned as an example of game design 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉 (i also applaud the restraint in showing Touhou gameplay that's visually palatable for not-bullet hell audiences from like a stage 1/2 boss on normal lol)

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thank you so much! I'm very happy to hear that the effort paid off. I try my best to do what you described! Yeah, unfortunately these videos take so long to make that it's gonna take some time for the Elden Ring videos to be produced. I can only work on them every evening after my full-time job. I'm hoping a broader audience ends up appreciating this channel or I'm hoping for the consulting to turn into something. I'm working hard on the new website and other stuff. I bought Touhou 10 and recorded the first two stages for the video, so yep it's only on normal haha!

[@foggy8298]

Good video but you really waffled when it came to discussing theme For one, the horse-flies are referring , y’know… horseflies. The real life flies? In the. Same was Esther is a literal cowgirl? Esther is Western themed. Not specifically outlaw themed like you decided, Wild West themed. So are cactuses, so are people pawning off snake oil (which is thematically tied as to how the shots are *meant* to trick you into thinking they’ll go straight like bullets before also becoming literal snakes of oil like the horseflies and cowgirl, but the oil snakes are easier to dodge than they would be as bullets so whatever) So is dynamite, so are vultures, so are beans and steak and sausages, the latter 2 of which also tie into Esther being a literal cowgirl. You’re pretending that cuphead isn’t like this in nearly every fight. Blimp to zodiac to moon and ufos? Vaguely ascending vehicle theming, starting with sky related things to space related things. All of Honeybottoms’s attack? Vaguely bee themed or royalty themed and also a plane. You complaining that cuphead bosses don’t tell a cohesive narrative with historical context and instead rely on surrealism is like complaining a horror movie is trying to scare you instead of having a romantic subplot. I feel like you should’ve realized this when contrasting cuphead footage with fucking red dead redemption 2 Idk why you keep bringing up how the surrealist cartoony game is in fact surrealist and cartoony, but compared to your genuine, well structured game design critiques it feels like, idk, a musician trying to mock someone’s piano skills and someone’s martial art skills. Stick you the one you know how to critique Or at the very least realize when whatever word processor you wrote this script in considers “horsefly” a word and you don’t realize why

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Of course I know what a horsefly is haha, but that doesn't matter when a pun is disjointed and there for the sake of it. Look, what you're describing is exactly how I described Phase 1 to be made -- scribbling down every vaguely western reference and throwing it in. It's a hodge podge of western imagery and puns without a sense of cohesion. Even the central idea of a saloon shootout, which is the very first western idea we're introduced to, doesn't utilize surrealism to embrace the idea. You can't justify the lack of cohesion by saying it's a surrealist melting pot of a very broad western theme. That's just not how theme and surrealism works.

[@AdvancePlays]

​@@DesignFrameCaseStudies Since when? Surreal art is very often maximalist.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

@@AdvancePlays That conflates artistic expression and style with theme and purpose. For an expansion on my first response in this thread, I have since added it in the pinned comment FAQ #1. Hopefully that helps to clarify.

[@bossdoor]

Glad you’re uploading more often

[@ESLong2009]

This was a great video! I'm surprised you don't have more subs given the quality of your content.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thank you so much! Maybe one day!

[@qn2.]

Thanks for having captions and chapter markers! I appreciate the accessibility details

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

My pleasure!

[@Sylvatic98]

I have learned so much about game design from this one video, thank you!

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

I'm glad to hear that! Thank you for watching! I appreciate you :)

[@snomvish]

It’s depressing that this isn’t the first video essay I’ve seen on why the Cuphead DLC is bad

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

I wouldn't consider this channel to be video essays at this point, since I take special care in real game design fundamentals, though perhaps that's pedantic. I wasn't aware of other videos with negative viewpoints. I hope you know that you can still like the game and have fun with it! If you had a good personal experience with the game, then that's all that matters. And you can still wish to see Studio MDHR improve over time. That's our collective goal :)

[@johnnythehipboy2002]

Loved this boss fight and the DLC as a whole but honesty watching this makes it really fun to imagine different ways of presenting the attacks, like maybe she has a variation of the snake oil shot where the snakes are fired out directly and she keeps her gun steady beforehand, and then she only spins the guns when firing curved shots that play out like in the actual fight, and she whistles for the vultures to come on screen before they actually do like brineybeard, maybe a different pitched whistle with a slightly tweaked animation for horseflies or even two differently shaped music notes for the two when she whistles, with both peeking their head in for a second beforehand from where they come out or something. Epic video

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thanks for the kind words :) Glad you had fun thinking about it!

[@micahfurlow2624]

the horseflies could also do a spitting animation and sound before shooting the spiky balls (I personally imagine this being like cowboys spitting into a spitoon)

[@gummigamer4614]

Haven't finished the video but man i wish there was a draw phase or something where your plane turns into a revolver and you do like a high noon showdown and that's what turns her into beef. Like she leaves the saloon, gets shot by you and now she's beef. That'd make the western theme more consistent, maybe the super attack is replaced with the revolver plane and parrying different attacks gives the revolver a different effect, like ur loading the gun and each different bullet gives like like more damage or slowed down attacks per bullet, just spitballin but that'd keep the theme throughout the fight. I think players would also appreciate slowing the fight down and making those choices on what attack they wanna keep parrying. Replacing the cards with pictures of the bullet would also be very cute.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Yeah, I like the idea of leaning more into Cuphead as the sheriff in this fight. Changing the Super and such probably isn't worth the effort for one boss, but I like the brainstorming!

[@bridgham222]

so let me get this straight 1. my fav boss in all of cuphead is seen as complex and weird 2. everyone else apparently struggled to keep up/understand the visual storytelling EXCEPT me?? 3. why do my fav things turn out to be seen as off putting by the majority, like this always happens lmao

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

What can I say, game design is complex :)

[@jorgemtzb9359]

I never really saw a problem with this particular fight tbh

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

That's normal. That's why this channel exists :)

[@jorgemtzb9359]

@@DesignFrameCaseStudies Yeah I see it really is quite a lot busy visually. I must say I don't really agree with a bunch of your other takes on the DLC looking into your channel though, especially miss chalice stuff being a bad thing and thought it was really really good overall and conserved the spirit of the base game perfectly. But it is quite a neat in-depth look.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

@@jorgemtzb9359 I first and foremost establish Studio MDHR's design intent for the game as a whole then go into extreme detail about which elements go against the spirit of the game. I appreciate you watching but you gotta separate your personal bias from the underlying design because this channel incorporates evidence. That doesn't mean you can't have fun with the boss or the game, but game design is game design.

[@jorgemtzb9359]

@@DesignFrameCaseStudies I already said disagree with a lot your takes but still enjoy the in-depth analysis.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

@@jorgemtzb9359 Which I appreciate but my response still applies. I directly counter your disagreements in the videos with evidence, such as the spirit of the game and such. Those claims just don't hold water here so I do my best to address them so everyone is on the same page since I care about the games industry and my community. Thanks for understanding :)

[@notsodogninja35]

This video makes me feel awful and I haven’t even watched it. Am I seriously this sensitive these days? This is not a criticism on you, this is one on me. Esther is my favorite boss fight. Period. And just seeing a 2 hour long video tearing into her just kinda breaks my heart a little. Up to the point that I just can’t even being myself to listen to anything more than the conclusion. I’m just really sorry. This is nothing against you; this is all on me and my own thoughts and opinions on her. S-Ranking her was honestly one of the most fun things that I’ve done in a video game to date and honestly it was because I never knew quite what to expect and macro managing my position was very fun, especially since this was technically my first shmup. Like Idk she could have been even more but I just love her the way she is and changing any part of the boss fight would be a downgrade for me. Loved pretty much everything about the fight. Yeah. It’s on me for not watching the video. But like, I just can’t bring myself to. Ok no longer having a minor crisis, commenting this helped somewhat.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

I should add something that addresses this in the FAQ of every video, because I think it's important to be in the right mindset, and it's reasonable for you to bring it up. Whether something is well or poorly designed doesn't mean you can't have fun with it. It just means that there's room to grow. I'm careful to give Studio MDHR plenty of benefit of the doubts and respect their design intent, which also means I provide as much evidence and constructive feedback as I can so they can meet their design intent and overall improve their next games (and the industry as a whole for multiphase boss battlers). That doesn't mean you can't also have fun and respect the game. In fact, I think the more you love and respect something, the more you want them to succeed and improve. I hope that helps a little.

[@rosykindbunny1313]

It's interesting to see other perspectives of people who played through the level. It really helps to point out the issues I never noticed before. I really only struggled the first couple of times due to everything on screen, but I was able to determine what was an attack and what was part of the background pretty quickly. I was able to adapt to the attacks pretty quickly, too. Also wait, why did I never realize the wanted posters fly at you? I guess I never paid attention to it because it doesn't actually hurt you.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Yeah I never noticed the wanted poster while playing either. I think it's just another testament to the obscene visual chaos and contrast issues haha. But also, like I said, I really don't know why the wanted poster wasn't more prominent in the foreground or background rather than a weird element that flashes by. Thanks for watching! I appreciate you!

[@andreworders7305]

I’d eat cranberry sauce on its own

[@caps_lock]

90 minutes in, cool video, amazing video even (i am learning more here than in game dev college LOL) but how exactly is a vacuum related to the outlaw theme?

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thank you so much! I'm very happy to hear that :) Phase 2 is centered around the idea of an outlaw stealing valuables (all of the money objects and the safes), but it's expressed through surrealism (in a good way).

[@spouwnerring]

So will there be a super cut combining all boss videos once the final boss video has been released?

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

That's a great idea actually haha. It might be risky though, since if the supercut doesn't blow up, then the length might negatively impact the channel. That's gonna take some time though, since I'm going to revisit this series down the road.

[@alanspektor274]

LETS GOOO! New Cuphead DLC Case Study. I love each of these and have seen them all in full. They make for some of the best analysis and thorough breakdowns of theming, balance, mechanics, and game design as a hole. Looking forward to watching the whole thing over the next day or so :D

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

That is so very kind of you! Thank you so much! :)

[@cyboyentertainment92]

Boy was this hard to follow, and by this I mean your descriptions. I’m pretty sure I get it, but understanding every term and how each part relates to perfect game design is a bit of a challenge. The quality of these videos is undoubtedly fantastic and appreciate the PNGS used to show each asset of the boss!

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thank you for the feedback and for the kind words! I try to make the words come on screen as I say them, so hopefully that makes it easier to follow. If there are any sections in particular that were difficult to follow, I'd love to know so I can do my best to improve! Even if some of it may be overwhelming at first, I hope applying everything to the examples I use made it make sense.

[@randomcommenter-gy9rp]

so when can we expect more cuphead dlc videos from you?

[@birdlegscass]

I don't think the cactus telegraph coming from the right is an issue in practice. The telegraph communicates "avoid the upper/lower half of the screen," and that's how you avoid the attack

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Yeah, I had a feeling that might trip people up a little when I was editing it. I end that section mentioning how those two telegraphs are only _lightly_ misleading and can actually be good but they end up being interpreted as compounded chaos because of the context in which they reside in, if that makes sense. I also praise the same lasso and dynamite telegraph later on. I appreciate sharing your thoughts regardless though! I like to hear them 😄

[@rudolfambrozenvtuber]

A good measurement of depth is the nunber of relevant balanced options the player has and how often they're making meaningful decisions. Credit to Whitelight on coining that idea

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Hey, welcome back, I remember you :) Yeah, unfortunately in the gaming space, there are some terms less consistently established. I came up with one that I thought was easy to understand. I like yours as well.

[@rudolfambrozenvtuber]

@@DesignFrameCaseStudies Again I'd mention I borrowed it from whitelight (though I can't actually remember which video specifically)

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

@@rudolfambrozenvtuber Yeah, I suppose I should've phrased that sentence better

[@Lunar_Atronach]

i think one thing you missed (im almost halfway through but i dont think you're gonna mention it based on what you've said) the lasso is terrible as a indicator for another reason: elevation. the bottom lasso swings in the middle so if its your first time seeing it it seems like a neutral threat to be reacted to, (such as when it is thrown above the lower section which just looks like a projectile) not area denial. on the up lasso though the moving part, the lasso, is almost completely off screen. if you are just looking for the moving parts you won't realize she's actually charging up unless you are studing her animation which completely blends into her silhoette. in fact every attack she makes falls into her silhouette. whyyyyyy edit: i know the background is something you discuss but the vulture going into the background astonished me the first time i saw it because i didnt realize it was supposed to be extra animation, i thought it was an indicator because your attention gets pulled away from the vulture turning around so the casual way to view it is vulture comes from left > drops dynamite> flies in background towards left meaning he's about to attack again

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Yeah, you could view the vulture flying in the background as the vulture will attack again, which is correct, but there's such a large gap in between vulture spawns, plus there's no telegraph before the first time it spawns, which is the most significant problem and cascades to the Trial & Error and Memorization loop.

[@Lunar_Atronach]

@@DesignFrameCaseStudies one thing i thought of last night to fix it is to make the vulture fly across the whole screen in the background before doing the attack, like a progress bar. that way you can briefly look up and see roughly how long you have before the attack.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

@@Lunar_Atronach Yeah, having the vulture fly in the background as the immediate telegraph would be one fix for the issue, for sure!

[@BlaizeTheDragon]

Me who had more problems with Doggone dogfight: yeah but its not the worst-

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

That's fair! Both bosses have their own upsides and downsides :)

[@le_bennett]

Loved the video, despite never having played the game - the scientific depth (haha) you go to is a thing unique to this channel. Can’t wait for the inevitable asskicking Elden Ring (and potentially its DLC) will receive. I mean, I love ER (little more mixed on SotE), but man it just feels sometimes like the devs forgot how to game design.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thank you so much, truly! You got me pumped to go forward on some of my ER ideas 😄

[@JimiconNeedsYT]

As someone who speedruns the dlc and thinks it was exeptional i trully find your perspective interesting and youre argumantatin extremely strong. Btw if you think this fight is overanimated i am interested in your chef saltbaker opinion. Gl on the youtube journey cause ur content is amazing.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

That's a big compliment! Thank you very much! I appreciate you watching with such an open mind. I would love to finish the Cuphead DLC series in the future since I already have the first rough drafts done.

[@JimiconNeedsYT]

Pls finish the series. I have watched all vids from a different account and i cant wait for the critique of moonshine and chef. Btw the only thing i cant deny is that the music is amazing on all bosses

[@extrahistory8956]

Remember seeing extensive amounts if gameplay back in the day, and it was no mystery why this was near universally considered one of the hardest of the entire DLC. That first phase is one heck of a rough start, even if by end it manages to balance out with a solid fourth phase. Very interested to see what else you shall say about Snow Cult Scuffle, Gnome Way Out, Bootlegger Boogie, and A Dish to Die For as they don't have as many issues as this one and Doggone Dogfight.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Yeah I would love to tackle the rest since I already have first drafts of them all finished, but I really need to set this series aside for now and focus on other games haha

[@extrahistory8956]

@@DesignFrameCaseStudies Alright. I'll eagerly await for the content regardless.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

@@extrahistory8956 I appreciate you!

[@SlurpyTheDog]

Once you know what your doing with phase one it actually gets really fun (the strategy is to shoot the horseflies at all costs) but getting to know what your doing is such an absurd mountain to climb I will say about the cactus, I think it’s telegraphed a little better than it’s given credit for, as while it does come from an opposite side of the screen, there is a moment where Esther’s rope is across the screen and you see her tug. It’s far from perfect and definitely a little too quick but I would give MDHR the benefit of the doubt that the attack is intended to warn players not where the attack is coming from, but that the entire screen is about to be covered. It’s definitely an unfortunate victim of how good the animation is, which is a weird statement to make that I think could only ever apply to this wonderful game. It genuinely shocked me going through the comparisons between the robot and Esther, seeing them side by side made me appreciate that boss in a way I really hadn’t before, it’s unfortunate that the insanely good animation of delicious last course ends up making the learning curve a good deal harder, although once you finally do learn bosses I can at the very least contest that none of the bosses in this game ever truly feel outright unfair. Can’t wait to see you cover Glumstone. That first phase is absolutely mental, but then his final phase is lowkey one of my favorites in the whole game. Plus, his music is absurdly underrated.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thank you for the great comment! I'm glad you learned something! I'd love to cover Glumstone. I totally agree on his last phase being mechanically satisfying. Regarding the cactus telegraph, pinned comment FAQ #2.

[@Smonkus_]

Somebody ringed the Dinkster

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

🛎

[@torringoldstein4814]

Haven't finished the vid just yet, but when you brought up the background colour palette not contrasting enough with the projectiles that can hurt you, primarily the coins and cash, I think making the bossfight be set at night would've helped the contrast a lot. Using nice dark blues for the background desert would've made it clearer what we have to dodge, but also I feel as though many platformers utilize the imagery of a desert at night. Granted, it wouldn't be called "High Noon" Hoopla, but idk maybe something like Wasteland Whiplash?

[@dustrose8101]

You could make it a play on High Noon instead, like High Moon Hoopla

[@hexellent0324]

I literally just finished rewatching the Doggone Dogfight video XD

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Good timing! 😆

[@centurosproductions8827]

I feel like if you want phase 3 and 4 to fit thematically, drop phase 1 and make phase 2 just a fakeout at the beginning, where you think you're in for one kind of boss but nope, she trips in the first few seconds and sucks herself up, so 3 and 4 are the actual boss.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

That'd be a funny fakeout 😂

[@centurosproductions8827]

Or on the other hand the phase transition to phase 3 could have just been her lose animation, with her passing out or running away, or even getting canned after seeing herself cooked in the mirror.

[@velvetdraws3452]

i never even noticed the horseflies existing wtf?!

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

😂

[@UltraEd14]

Hey new viewer here. This analysis is amazingly well done. The part where you explain all the different ways the player could have interacted with the snakes was top-notch. It's very clear that you have an amazing wealth of knowledge on the topic of game design. It would be nice to see more positive videos in the future. I took a look at your history and your video titles and subject matter tend to skew negative. The amount of negative tiles can be a bit off-putting, especially when they are directed at a beloved game like Cuphead. A little of the good and the bad would be a nice pace breaker so viewers can get a little bit of everything. Either way, great stuff! I subscribed and I'm excited to see more.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thank you for the kind words! I'm very glad that you liked the snake part. I loved putting that together! My goal is to include the good and bad in a respectful but still entertaining manner, so the content itself is always as balanced and fair as I can. For the titles and thumbnails, I try to be as accurate and interesting as possible, so it's a balance that I try and fail to achieve haha. I'll likely end up changing the title even though I think the current title would interest me. I'll likely change the Doggone thumbnail too. Anyway, looking through my channel, I'm seeing the majority of videos being neutral rather than negative (or positive), so I'm guessing you're just looking at my recent stuff. Perhaps a good question to ask is what exactly drew you to click on this video? And what would draw you to the other Cuphead DLC videos if they interested you?

[@UltraEd14]

@@DesignFrameCaseStudies Thanks for the response and my mistake I saw your recent video titles and assumed they were the majority. I will take some time to look through your catalogue. I clicked on the video because I'm a developer myself and game design is something I like to educate myself on quite frequently. I also enjoy a longer video. (I'm one of those crazy people that finish 6 hour YT videos). I see that you do indie game critiques. Have you considered making that a series? I saw you have quite a few games in your backlog. Cuphead stuff is good, but I would be very interested in finding new titles and gameplay styles through your content. How often do you run community surveys to see what your audience wants? What are some of your goals for KZbin? I can shoot you an email if that's too public lol

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

@@UltraEd14 I see your email but I'm fine responding here. I released a few episodes in my Design Frame series (this was before the channel name changed to Design Frame) of shorter, bite-sized indie videos that focus on one good or bad aspect. The problem is that it's difficult to attract people to them. My best bet is to make them topic-based (my most popular DF video is on Transparency, for example), but at the same time, I have a passion for talking about mainstream titles in a way that nobody else seems to do, which also happens to be more likely to be seen and watched haha. I do have more topic videos in mind though that I'd like to release, like a more comprehensive Trial & Error video, and general Souls design that's used across indie games. All this to say, I think I'm focusing on more well-known games on this channel (which can also include popular indie games like FNaF and Cuphead), and focusing on indie games on the consulting channel that I've recently partnered with (info in pinned comment or description). I've only released one video there so far, but we're working on a big website revamp and other infrastructure. So hopefully that will be interesting for you once that gets rolling.

[@johnnydracaena6052]

1:09:36 okay but can we talk about how GENIUS it is to slide in a plug for your channel via the extra tidbit cards [cards that are unique to only this channel]? Plus, it’s an unobtrusive way to advertise to folks who are making an effort to rewind and pause the video, and therefore are more likely to subscribe. No nonsense, no manipulation, just good clean advertising for a good honest channel

[@lmia_the_swim_boi]

I can't wait for the next video. Especially for Mortimer Freeze. Aka random icicles, no easy parry, and crackshot for 1st phase

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thank you for watching! I appreciate you! The first rough drafts are done for most of the bosses, but I'll be releasing videos on other games first. I need to diversify 😅

[@theinsaneone_]

While this was my favorite fight in the DLC, this was by no means the best fight in the game. I’m not the best at cuphead, but this was the only one I could somewhat easily beat. Not a cakewalk, I still struggled a ton with this, but I made it through. While I did like the bullet hell like nature of phase 1, phase 2 felt really nice to that. After that, phase 3 was ok, but I really struggled with phase 4. I think it might have something to do with the fact that by the time I got to phase 4, my brain was slightly melted and I just wanted the fight to be done. Like it was overstaying it’s welcome. It’s never a good sign when you only take on one boss and once you beat it you have to step away from the game to not only calm down because the frustration of what feels like unfair mechanics made you nearly break something, but because your mentally exhausted from memorizing all the attack telegraphs and knowing just how to dodge everything. Abit worrying as I love playing games where you really have to focus on the combat and know when to dodge and what the boss is going to do next. I want to say it’s a skill issue… but it probably is with me.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Nah it's not an issue with you, believe me! There's less pattern recognition (which is what you're describing as loving) in this boss than there should be, since it employs bad learning methods and such. I'm surprised as well that this boss has four whole phases. It feels like a lot to pack into a single boss. I don't think Cuphead has ever handled that correctly, since they tend to throw stuff at the wall and see what sticks haha. Thanks for watching and sharing your experience! I appreciate you!

[@ShaulaXNinja]

I actually considered this harder than Dr. Kahl's Robot at one point.

[@underFlorence]

Regarding phase 2: You touched on it, but I really think there should be more downtime before the money objects start showing up. If there is dynamite being thrown right as phase 2 starts, you'll have an overlap of having to dodge both the money and the dynamite shards at the same time, which can easily be immediately overwhelming. Also, it means that the difficulty directly depends on "at which point in the cycle do you finish phase 1," which is not random but certainly would feel that way. Also, and this is a very minor issue but still relevant, if you actually look at the blow animation together with how the safes fall, it seems that as soon as a safe leaves the top of the screen, it immediately moves to the left side and drops again. While the animation is already enough to give the player time to react with "get away from the top of the screen," I think that disconnect could be the source of some friction that could be avoided by simply giving the safes more time when they're offscreen. I think another big boon of phase 2 is the downtime. After sucking and before blowing, there is a bit where nothing dangerous is happening, which allows the player a moment to breathe and readjust - something that does not really happen at all during phase 1 (and not even between phases 1 and 2). I think that constant uptime might easily contribute to that "eyes glazing over" feeling.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Good thoughts :)

[@mammamiawhygod2091]

This boss messed up me and my brother, we were so clueless before fighting her.

[@DinoDragon6]

I'll be honest, out of all of the video I watch so far, the elden ring telegraphing example is the one section I not only disagree with but couldn't even understand where you're coming from. To me the telegraph looked fine, tho I also found your interpretations of what it could signify unlikely, I also didn't notice it was a backwards slide. Never had an issue with that attack, in fact I think I understood it first time. Tho, I suppose this does highlight that whether a telegraph actually does it's job is partially dependent on the player and their expectations.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

I refuse to believe that you think it's okay for a knight to instantaneously slide on ice across an arena with no animations :p I'm sorry but there's just no situation in game design where that is okay haha. It's also not true that you understood it the first time because it's impossible to tell the speed (and thus also distance) in which he will travel. There's a minimum amount of arbitrary guesswork. As far as player expectations, you're right. The more that a telegraph can convey information to inform player expectation, the better. So even if some players were able to manage it (for all the wrong reasons), the telegraph does not encompass a wide enough player range to be considered acceptable design. I hope that helps clarify a bit! I appreciate you commenting your concerns!

[@DinoDragon6]

@@DesignFrameCaseStudies What I understood the first time was when the knight turned his shield towerds me, he was probably gonna dash towards me. That is where our main disagreement lies. There may also be a disagreement in the amount of guess work that is acceptable. Also, the animation was good enough at giving the illusion of making sense that I never noticed the oddities you pointed out.

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

@@DinoDragon6 Even though you interpreted the knight as turning his shield toward you, the fact that something else was happening with the model and animation than what you perceived is also a sign of the problem, if that makes sense. I broke down the specifics of what constitutes trial & error (as opposed to experimentation) but I ended up removing that from the video and instead defined it as its proper psychological term but how it applies to games, so in the future I'd like to turn that into a short video on defining trial & error more in depth, which I'm thinking should help narrow down what can be good or bad telegraphing before I tackle Elden Ring videos, in case you're interested. I appreciate you sharing your experience.

[@ShyGuyXXL]

"If a player has a lapse in memory and gets hit by that vulture, they've been punished, not for failure to express a skill, but for failure to memorize." Is memorizing a threat not a skill? If I see the vulture up there once, shouldn't it be up to me to keep him in mind? Sure, maybe I don't manage it on my first attempt, but who cares, you can retry the level immediately. It's not like I have to play another level first before I can get another shot at the first phase. Besides, you don't die in 1 hit. The time spent seeing an attack for the first time vastly dwarfs the time spent playing while knowing the attack. So shouldn't the game focus on balancing the attack around you knowing it? If every attack has so much telegraphing that you can reliably dodge it on your first attempt... then it's going to be even easier on your second attempt, and then easier on your third... and then you're gonna beat every boss in 2 or 3 attempts and then the game's over in 20 minutes. Not to mention years and years worth of painstakingly hand-drawn animation is over in a flash. I don't mind some trial and error if I can immediately try the stage again. If the punishment for failing to dodge the attack on your first run was several minutes of walking back to the boss, then of course it would be bullshit. But that's not the case. You just press a button and you're in the fight again. I don't think the game owes me a victory on my first attempt if I'm just alert enough. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that vulture is the first or only hazard to come in from the left side of the screen without warning. So I just wouldn't hang out at any edge of the screen, unless I know it's safe. Look, I get it, thinking "What hit me!?" is not fun in the moment. But that moment is gonna pass VERY quickly. Very soon you will be familiar with the fight and it's just up to you to keep all the attacks in mind. A vulture flying in from the top-left corner is not that weird of a concept to grasp. Heck, it doesn't even mean you have to stay away from the entire top of the screen. If you are in the top center, then you will still have a chance to fly out of the vulture's way when you see him coming in. I don't think needing to learn a game's pattern this way is bad design. If you don't LIKE this kind of game, then I completely understand it. It's not for everyone. But I wouldn't call it bad inherently. Yes, phase 2 has more predictable patterns, but as a result the phase is way, way, easier. For me, getting used to all the different attacks, memorizing them, as you say, is what the game is all about. You will get mercilessly obliterated at first, but then as you get used to all the chaos, you slowly last longer and longer, until you reach a point where you can effortlessly dodge the whole clusterfuck. I don't want to get to that point immediately. If I wanted that, I'd play... well, most of Nintendo's games, I guess. Actually, Punch-Out Wii is very similar to Cuphead. You get your ass handed to you right away, but as you get used to all the opponent's attacks, you get further and further, until your muscle memory manages to crawl your way to victory. That's not everyone's cup of tea, some would rather play a game where every hazard can be dodged on your first attempt, but then it wouldn't be Punch-Out. Then it's just WarioWare. Anyway, I'm rambling, thanks for your time! 🙂

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Memorization can be a skill, like Simon Says, but here we're talking about methods of learning. An attack comprises multiple parts, and one of those parts is conveyance of information, which affects how a player learns. No matter how the player learns, they will always increase in knowledge and skill over time. Incorporating unfair means of learning doesn't change that. It just makes the process less fun and unfair. It turns difficulty into artificial difficulty, rather than properly increasing difficulty in a well-designed manner. A common misconception by players is assuming fixing a problem takes away all of these other things like difficulty and fun. Game design advocates for MORE of what you like. The rate of progression for learning is irrelevant here. All we care about here is the _method_ of learning, one is objectively bad, the other is good. If you're curious to learn more, I'll be releasing a separate Trial & Error video in the future. I understand that the concept can sometimes be confusing, since I see a lot of people conflate ideas when talking about it online. The basic principles applied to games are here, so hopefully that's useful enough for now. The years of painstakingly hand-drawn animation is something I respect in the first DLC video with interviews and everything; however, it's irrelevant here. The average player doesn't care, nor should they care, about production concerns. Besides, we're not actually sacrificing rate of progression here. Making a well-designed game with proper methods of learning doesn't suddenly make it easy. I'm sorry but that's absurd haha. The process that you describe, that you enjoy in a game like this, would fall under Experimentation, which is basically the opposite of Trial & Error, where you get to learn, improve, and engage in the boss in a fair manner, by experimenting with patterns, skills, and challenge in a player-centric approach, as opposed to brute forcing. I hope that helps to clarify! :) I appreciate you sharing your concerns and thoughts!

[@ShyGuyXXL]

@@DesignFrameCaseStudies I guess my question would be, is there any way to have a fair version of the vulture-type hazard? A hazard that isn't telegraphed every time, but instead you just need to keep in mind that unless the hazard just passed, you simply shouldn't be in a certain area? Like, what if, for some reason, the top of the screen was not accessible at first? Like, maybe if the first phase was a run & gun section, which then switches into a plane section, where the vulture keeps up the same pattern. That way, you couldn't accidentally get hit by the vulture when it's coming in, since you're on the ground and can't jump that high. So you have plenty of time to read the pattern. Then would it be fair? Because I think games should still be able to have this kind of hazard where you're not warned every single time it happens, instead you just need to be aware of your surroundings and not drift into any danger zones. What if the vulture didn't appear based on a looping timer, but instead appeared when you fly too high up? Like, maybe whenever you enter his zone, or when you stay there for a second or two, THEN he flies across the screen? I mean, it would completely change what kind of hazard it is, but it would make it more predictable. Though I don't know how you could teach that in a fool-proof manner that doesn't involve the dreaded trial and error. I'm just spitballing now. By the way, when I mentioned Nintendo games earlier, that wasn't a diss. I love Nintendo games. They are just very different kinds of games and usually make hazards very clear. I wasn't saying that's a bad thing in any way. Just wanted to make that clear. I do value conveyance a lot in my games, I guess I just don't mind trial and error that much, when it's not that punishing.

[@underFlorence]

​@@ShyGuyXXL For the first point: I'd argue if there's a chance for an attack in an area that you cannot anticipate and thus you simply shouldn't be in an area, that doesn't do much for a player's skill expression. Because ultimately it boils down to 1) recognize that area, 2) treat that area as a no-go zone. It limits the play space while also potentially presenting a gotcha moment to first-time players. Additionally, you also cannot really do anything to force the player into that no-go zone. If you add another attack that cuts off all *but* the vulture damage area, then the player simply has to take a gamble on whether the vulture appears during that part or not. I think the thing is that *telegraphed* area denial is a completely fine punishment to being in an area. If the player was in the vulture damage area and heard, like, a screech, or saw it poke its head out, they would still be punished in that they now need to quickly react to that and find a *new* safe position. That is still a punishment, except instead of "aw well you lost health and couldn't really see where it was coming from," it is now "okay you gotta move someplace else!" And the severity of that punishment can be scaled based on the other attacks happening at the same time, too. If you want to, you could have an absolute smorgasbord of bullets happening right outside the vulture zone when the screech sounds, so it's still very likely to damage the player, but the chance that they *could* make it out unscathed will make them feel cool if they manage it and make them feel less bad if they do get hit. And, of course, if the player takes too long to decide on a course of action or doesn't acknowledge the warning, they would still straight-up get hit by the vulture.

[@sapphiix]

There are a lot of good points in the video and I've learned a lot but I keep chuckling every time you ask "how does this fit the theme" cause idk vultures and horse flies and everything they include in the fight is DEFINITELY screaming "Western" -There is an argument ofc that's a very shallow interpretation of western stuff but it still feels much more thematically cohesive then that god damn genie that starts using ufos and stuff half way through an obviously Egyptian stage (even though genies are much more Arabian iconography rip)

[@DesignFrameCaseStudies]

Thanks for watching and for the kind words! For your concerns on the western theme, please refer to the pinned comment, FAQ #1. I hope that helps clarify :)