The Misunderstood Mischief of Mario Troll Levels

Troll levels are turning game design on its head. In this video, we delve into their history, explore their wily methods, converse with the brilliant folks who make and play them, and examine how they're already shaping the future of video games.
Featuring: @FreakAndGeek, @TanukiDan, @Defender1031, @bannedwagonteam, @jneen, @stevo1922, MarbleKing
Special Thanks to @CarlSagan42 for use of clips.
Playlist of Referenced Troll Levels: • Anti-Design: A Crash C...
Annotations Spreadsheet: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
0:00:00 Part 1: A Brief History of Troll Levels
0:12:30 Defining Troll Levels
0:36:44 Part 2: The Gearbox of Trolling
0:39:30 Neutral: The Ambush
0:44:59 1st Gear: The Trap
0:55:19 2nd Gear: Deceit
1:08:54 3rd Gear: The Breach of Contract
1:19:55 4th Gear: The Farce
1:39:39 5th Gear: Blasphemy
1:55:51 Reverse: The Anti-Troll
2:05:01 Part 3: The Subversive Art of Troll Levels
2:30:01 Defender's Magnum Opus
2:44:30 Closing Thoughts
MORE TROLL RESOURCES:
@ryeroyal 's very awesome history of troll levels vid: • An Incomplete Mario Ma...
Defender's Troll Guide: docs.google.com/document/d/13...
The Banned Wagon Team website: bannedwagon.team/
Sady's "A Troll Story" Part 1: aminoapps.com/p/qg8pgnx
Part 2: aminoapps.com/p/oo2sip
About Syobon Action: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syobon_...
Waypoint article on Super Wagon World: www.vice.com/en/article/88qwy...
FURTHER READING:
A Brief History of Dada: www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-c...
"How A Urinal Changed Art History": blog.artsper.com/en/a-closer-...
"Persuasive Games: Video Game Pranks": www.gamedeveloper.com/design/...
"Understanding the Flow Channel in Game Design": www.gamedeveloper.com/design/...
"Queer Use" by Sara Ahmed: feministkilljoys.com/2018/11/...
OTHER VIDEOS REFERENCED: • Infernal Ramblings Tro...
#trolllevels #gamedesign #mario

[@InfernalRamblings]

Do you want to know more about a particular troll clip, or are just hungry for more troll level content? Be sure to note the annotation that appears in the bottom-right corner, which you can use to find the VOD the clip came from with this spreadsheet: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1kYZIenMU7xKybwMyYuoRzbYLyVztHBDmgP97i49jyko/edit#gid=0 You can also explore more in the compiled playlist of all the playthroughs I referenced: kzbin.info/aero/PLa30Jo-ni7KPflkcgY3QBxxv0f-o-7mbK

[@Fish-E-13]

ok

[@RelakS__]

I don't see Super Mario Frustration in the list. It was for the Super Mario (Brothers? I can't follow what is what) and had very hideous ticks. And infinite life. Maybe, it does not meet some criteria?

[@moshemanela388]

was that a gretta garba pun? why

[@annajones5057]

Lol thank you for the content! I’m working on my first level to prank my brother . It’s gonna be sooo much fun!!!

[@cazzzador7984]

blaze it.

[@randomjunkohyeah1]

My favorite way of describing a troll level is an interactive Looney Tunes cartoon that puts you in the place of Wile E. Coyote or Elmer Fudd

[@Defender1031]

Oooh! I REALLY like that!

[@Defender1031]

"Shhh! Be vewy vewy quiet. I'm hunting shinies..."

[@FissionCube]

yeah some of them are like the video game equiv of running into a tunnel painted onto a wall or something

[@efad3215]

​@@Defender1031true

[@devincetee5335]

​@@Defender1031The carrot is in the box

[@thekilla1234]

I think it's worth mentioning that the term "Twice Twice" comes from a level Carl played called "Larl Does Everything Twice Twice". It's based on a running joke that Carl often dies to the exact same troll in the exact same place twice on troll levels due to either forgetting or focusing on talking to chat instead of the game. So when the level forced Carl to play the level again with different trolls, he would die to the new troll twice as he did with the first one. So Carl would die to the troll twice, then twice again on the repeated section, hence he would die to the troll twice, twice.

[@marowakcity3727]

not only that, but at the end the level forced him to play through the whole thing again, making it actually "play through the level twice, twice"

[@thomasmewily4012]

And then he realize "I learned nothing ! Haaaaa"

[@thekilla1234]

@@marowakcity3727 This is probably what the level title is actually referring to. When I finished watching the video when it was first released I interpreted the title to mean what I put in the comment, but it might be wrong. But it doesn't really matter how the title was interpreted, I think it's still good for people that don't know the origin to know where it came from.

[@neoqwerty]

@@thekilla1234 It works both ways and knowing the Mario Maker/Lunar Magic users, it's probably both, too, as a meta-joke about how reading it twice can get two meanings (and maybe even about having to read it twice to parse it, too)

[@Defender1031]

As someone who was there at the time and actually spoke to the creator about the level, I believe that Symplectic's original intent with the title was, in fact, that there were two sections that both looked the same, (doing everything twice), and then the ending troll forced a replay of the entire level (hence, doing everything twice, twice).

[@FreakAndGeek]

The clip of Carl at 2:04:31 is fantastic!

[@InfernalRamblings]

It's stuck with me all these years and definitely was in the back of my mind when writing the script, very happy that I tracked down the original VOD of it.

[@_smugmaster_4553]

I didn't realize how long this video was until I saw this. Holy crap!

[@Pigeon3434]

The one at 1:15:18 too!

[@TheNomad94]

Wow, I went to look at the comments at this exact timestamp, I can't believe it

[@Calypso1979]

29:04:31 is too perfect

[@frimi8593]

Great video! Can’t believe you wrote a 3 hour video essay about Mario and FAILED to use the word “perchance” once. For shame. Perchance.

[@InfernalRamblings]

Perchance next time.

[@imveryangryitsnotbutter]

You can't just say "perchance".

[@Orangecatinahoodie]

@@imveryangryitsnotbutterperchance

[@--46200]

stompin' turtys

[@NoNameAtAll2]

mario the idea vs mario the man

[@PPedroFernandes]

"they are good design pretending to be bad design" I have never heard such a perfect sentence describing troll levels. Bravo, what a line

[@Defender1031]

Thanks so much once again for both making and including me in this video, Infernal. I'm so happy to see this taking off and all the comments from people learning more about how much design actually goes into troll levels.

[@InfernalRamblings]

Thank you for all your insights and feedback!

[@COZITIME]

Yes this is such an amazing video, you really did things justice Infernal ^_^. Need more content on anti-design. I love the reality in 50 years, like they talk about the Beatles in tertiary music study, they'll bring up Defender as a revolutionary hero in game design.

[@TanukiDan]

So cool. I'm glad I got to be a part of this.

[@InfernalRamblings]

Thanks so much for sitting down for an interview. This was a blast!

[@chickennuggetman2593]

TWO HOURS

[@KodakYarr]

​@@chickennuggetman2593bro this was three hours, what're you smoking?

[@hyperventalated]

My favorite troll ive ever seen is coming out of a ceiling pipe and landing on a platform that looks like its moving really fast becuse there are enemies below you're passing by. Then it's revealed you're not moving at all, and the enemies are on a conveyor belt moving from right to left super fast. Its so simple and dumb, but also hilarious and brilliant.

[@stevo1922]

Can't believe you talked about defender's level instead of my obviously better levels : ) seriously tho, awesome video

[@TheMAZZTer]

There's only two "STEEEEEEEEEEEVOOOOOOOOOOO"s in this video, that's underrepresentation.

[@RigelRat]

STEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[@WH4CKA]

Hi stevo

[@fainfawn7641]

“STEEEEEEEVVVVOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO” was underrepresented in this video lol

[@chrisj4288]

Now I want to find that video where stevo was turned into an entire song

[@FreakAndGeek]

Such a great video!!

[@InfernalRamblings]

Thanks so much for the interview and everything! This was a blast.

[@frimi8593]

Thanks for making that community post geek, I probably wouldn’t have seen this otherwise and as someone who loves trolls and long video essays this was a real treat!

[@aniolelseer7199]

See geek wasn't 7 hours long. Only 2.

[@winterwatson6811]

3 really

[@KaeraNeko]

one of my favourite trolls was the level where you stand on a skull platform that seems to be moving right, but it's just really a set of conveyors that are looping the same launchers around underneath you, creating the illusion that the platform is moving.

[@jneen]

Beautiful video. Thanks for taking the time to make it!

[@InfernalRamblings]

Thanks for all your help! This was an absolute delight to put together.

[@refitdan]

I just want to say, your level 'Toad Reads Defender's Troll Guide' is one of my favourite ones I've seen Carl et al play. It was hilarious (and devious).

[@jneen]

@@refitdan thanks a ton, that means a lot :]

[@rosevevoswag]

i think the ambush has always been particularly effective in further making a troll level seem dumber than it really is. it grounds a troll level in the hot garbo foundations that made trolls big in the first place. in a hot garbo level, you're literally never safe, you can do nothing and still die. and the ambush maintains that feeling even in levels where you're given time to deliberate on what's next or desperate to escape a room.

[@BinglesP]

Just pause the game lmao /j

[@mermaidpotato]

Some of the shared "in on the joke"-ness between the creators and players/showcasers of troll levels reminds me of something that someone once said about none pizza with left beef: the joke is that you've made a computer system someone clearly designed for a purpose do something else entirely, and now both the pizza orderer and whoever's working at dominos that night can laugh together imagining the people on the other side of such an absurd situation. It's such a specific kind of humor that I love so much.

[@aceae4210]

thank you for making manual subtitles for this whole almost 3 hour video, very much appreciated

[@InfernalRamblings]

I have some minor audio processing issues myself, so subtitles will always be a priority for me.

[@FissionCube]

was about to comment this myself :>

[@MelodyLumina]

wait you're right holy shit-

[@BlazingKhioneus]

I love how these trolls levels interact exactly like a looney tunes bit. It's outsmarting back and forth until the level runs out of ammo.

[@RutabagaSwe]

The main takeaway from this video: I love that "twice twice" has become proper nomenclature in troll level design, to the point where it was just used to describe a dungeon in Elden Ring 🤣

[@DoctorSwellman]

I knew this project was going to be a big one from you but nearly 3 hours? I had no idea the Mario Maker troll community had so much to it. It's one of those things that you don't expect much from, but there's a ton of love put into their work and it 100% shows. Always great to see such niche communities covered in essays like this. Excellent topic choice and wonderful video my friend

[@InfernalRamblings]

Thanks so much! Considering I decided to undertake this project while also shipping a game for the day job, I'm relieved that both turned out quite well. Now that I've got some free time I look forward to catching up and all!

[@KingBling1]

I'm so happy someone has made such a well-crafted video about a sub-genre of game dev I hold very dear. This was an absolute joy to watch and you hit the mark perfectly on what exactly a troll is. Hope to be seeing more from you in the future!

[@brianarsuaga5008]

I came to the comments specifically to say that the KingBling soft-deaths are my favorite innovation in the genre, an excellent little mix of fake tension and slapstick that still functions as a sort of extra-punishment for dying without the frustration of an anti. Plus they always feel like.. decadent largesse, imagining how much of the level and how many sprites were spent on a small, silly moment.

[@jarodt1404]

Just repeating Brian's comment, absolutely love seeing your style in a level. To miss a KingBling 'anti' in one of your levels is just cause to replay the whole thing.

[@lewisarmitage9020]

I don't make or play troll levels, but I have watched people like Carl and Geek play them for a decent while. I think you've done a great job putting into words what makes troll levels so clever, and why they're so fun to watch.

[@beeftips1628]

Agreed, seeing something like this that puts to words so well what I’ve been watching for the past 7 years was really good.

[@WhiteThumbs]

Levels that use mechanics like a thwamp pushing a slow spring you have to ride over spikes but only if you stand in 4 precise places first. I like when verticality is used.

[@thomasmewily4012]

2:12:07 I think the dungeon you are thinking about is the Giants' Mountaintop Catacombs in Elden Ring Spoiler ahead : From my experience it was massive twice twice, at the end of the first section, there is only one way to go, it's a hole and you fall into the roof a room that look like the first one. Except there was an object that was visible from the first time/room, and the object isn't there. Then you do the section again, but the same enemy are alive (because it is a different location), and a giant weird poisonous spiting egg enemy is also present in one of the room, where it was only a small group previously. When you finished the second section, there is only one way to go, and you fall into the roof the first section. This time the object is there, you can collect it. But then you are confuse about where you need to go, in order to trigger the lever to the boss room, because you are running in a circle. I only realize later when leaving, that the elevator that took you down to the first section have actually 3 levels, and there is a hidden underground level that is hard to see. And it is on this last/first level that you can trigger the lever to the boss room. I can't believe I got trolled outside SMM, I didn't expected this, it's pretty cool

[@thomasmewily4012]

*How much internet point did I win ?*

[@jothki]

I remember the dungeon even putting in fake corpses for enemies that you fought in the earlier rooms, to add to the illusion that you've been there before and more enemies have somehow spawned in.

[@thomasmewily4012]

@@jothki Oh, interesting, I didn't even notice it

[@badgamer5041]

​@@jothkiI think you are thinking of the Leyndell Catacombs. That one repeats with "dead" enemies from previous floors.

[@a_lethe_ion]

they have like 3... all doing different..leyendll catacombs (using very troll ish looking omen) get you through one area three times, the giantops thing where you run through that samelooking room 3 times and the hero one

[@LoudmouthLee]

I am still slightly upset that Nintendo began deleting levels. I was never around or in the community for coordinated uploads and have missed out on the last year of troll levels. Troll levels helped me get through the pandemic.

[@MYFAVORITES5]

Really is a shame. Makes it hard to find good old trolls that I missed too. 😢

[@petervella6973]

Honestly same

[@julianlaresch6266]

I was watching a MM2 relay at gdq and the announcer told everyone to go download rhe levels now before Nintendo deletes them (at the summer gdq this year, it's a really fun set of levels)

[@nikkiofthevalley]

Wait, why would Nintendo delete levels that aren't inappropriate or malware? That seems counterproductive. Granted, it's Nintendo, but still... Why??

[@voidify3]

@@nikkiofthevalleybecause they haven’t added an option to opt your levels out of endless, and troll levels are a nuisance to endless players by being not what they’re looking for

[@DraconisLeonidas]

I always figured there was SOME merit to troll levels, they just weren't for me. And I'd say they still aren't, but it's so fascinating to see the concepts and principles that goes into the creation of a great level.

[@Chocolatepain]

Wow, is this a 3 hr documentary on Mario troll levels? I've just started and production quality is so high. Feel like I'm in for a treat.

[@cosmicspacething3474]

41:03 I’d argue an ambush can both set up the expectations and break them, by keeping the player unnerved, and on their toes. If they expect something to jump right out at them they’ll approach the situation differently, and that behavior can lead to the player running into something else. Best example is the guy getting fished

[@petervella6973]

Former troll maker here (5thKnight). This video does a fantastic job of explaining these types of levels, and, in my opinion, very accurately describes the process of making them. For me, making one level would be a project spanning multiple months, but a few very talented people I knew in the community (you know who you are 😂) could pump out fantastic troll levels in a matter of a few days. Also, what Jneen said about how thoroughly testing a semisolid to be the perfect height could be a lengthy process really rings true to me and probably many other troll level creators 😂.

[@Defender1031]

Yo 5thknight! I had just been wondering what you were up to these days!

[@RobertCT86]

5th knight troll levels were always 5 star levels

[@Grimmtombobulus]

Here here!

[@benrichards1694]

We miss you man!

[@SamyueruHikage]

This video taught me that twice-twiceing someone is basically like gaslighting them. That's nice :)

[@DesTr069]

That’s honestly the best way to put it, hahaha

[@shano1966]

Wowow thank you so much for this amazing video, what a gift to the community. I finally have something I can link people when they ask what I (used to) do with all my time lol.

[@Grimmtombobulus]

Amazing! Thanks for shining a light on our community :)

[@nugboy420]

Hey Grimm funny seeing you here ;) jk the whole world is here hahahaha.

[@Grimmtombobulus]

Haha @nugboy420. It's been time. Yup, everyone's here. Well, everyone important (kappa kappa)

[@lvlen-125]

So, I checked the troll guide mentioned in the video, and while checking the table of contents, there was a subsection in what is basically a "dos and do-nots" section simply titled "Never...." It was a fucking rickroll goddamnit

[@willowdrakon]

I love this video. Something about the combination of all the individual parts like your sense of humor, your great script writing, the really subtly good editing, your commentary on game design and also art as a whole, and of course, all the hilarious clips of some of the best troll levels there are, combine to create a masterpiece.

[@DannyBPlays]

1:01:00 the fake left screen might be my favorite troll of all time

[@mlewellyn]

It's unfortunate that I caught no mentions of Tonkachi Mario or Kamikaze Mario. It's unarguable that those games planted the seeds of what would become today's SMM troll levels, refined through the era of SMW romhacks. A brief exploration the genesis often helps one appreciate the peak of the art form, after all. Just like without the urinal depicted in the video, it's harder to appreciate Andy Warhol painting cans of soup.

[@PixelHead777]

The Ambush as Spicy Seasoning is such a good metaphor because you can, in fact, pass a threshold where, because it is the focus of the event like the one level you featured where ONE ROOM has SO MANY ambushes in a row it becomes the Ghost Pepper of a dare.

[@hesho24]

How is a

[@JorWat25]

BTW, '>1000' means 'over 1000'.

[@hesho24]

@@JorWat25 uuuuuh. You’re right. Thanks

[@ferdo666]

Very great Video! I just want to add, that Cat Mario wasn't the first trollgame but "The Big Adventure of Owata's Life" was. It is actually the inspiration for Cat Mario. I am halfway through your video, but it is such a great video! Happy it popped up by chance in my feed

[@JalebJay]

Here because geek linked it in her youtube feed. I love seeing this as someone who sits back and watches many of these trolls. Great work!

[@linkthehero8431]

4:28 That level concept actually dates all the way back to the original Super Mario Bros, which has two castles that have loop areas that only allow you to proceed if you select the right path.

[@InfernalRamblings]

There's definitely some troll (or proto-troll) designs sprinkled throughout the history of the franchise, especially the SMW Ghost Houses.

[@CheesecakeMilitia]

​@@InfernalRamblingsit's definitely the part of the video I wish was expanded on a little more - even if the video was already long enough lol. Trolls are just one aspect of kaizo and kaizo has its own well documented history from Mario 2 JP to romhacks to IWBTG to Dark Souls bringing troll-y level design to the masses. Elden Ring even had a twice-twice dungeon!

[@alysdexia]

@@CheesecakeMilitiaMario 2 is DKJ.

[@alysdexia]

If only you were allowed to comment when you wrote the game name correctly.

[@panampace]

I’m going to watch all of this. Troll design is an art form that requires a crazy amount of talent but it’s so niche and meta it’s sad that it’s a talent that goes unrecognized.

[@willowdrakon]

I never quite grasped how central and influential carlsagan42 was in and to the troll community

[@B0XGaming]

First and foremost, thank-you for making such an awesome documentary. This community and the game it congregates around has been a true passion, and it all stems from the wonderful community members within it. Some of the best friends I have in recent memory are because of it. With regards to what you said in the video about play testing (and that self-promotion bit at the end lol,) I actually got started in this community because of playtesting these types of levels. Not long after that, I became a maker of them as well. If you ever need a troll playtested, please feel free to reach out and ask. I'm in defenders discord and have a community of mine as well. Thank-you again for making this video. It's nice to know that people actually care about the work that we put into these creations and it really does help reignite the fire with regards to making more. Most of us make these levels for the people who enjoy playing and watching them. Without you, there are no levels. ❤

[@elarin3806]

aw man this makes me want to watch playthroughs of all these levels again. thank you for shining some light on our wonderful community ♥

[@fainfawn7641]

Fr! The massive amount of nostalgia from many of those clips makes me just want to go back.

[@mads_in_zero]

As someone who's been watching Mario Maker Troll content for a while, it's kinda surreal seeing clips with numbered citations. Like, yeah, if you're doing an essay, of _course_ you'd cite things. But that's Larl my funny streamer Larl falling for a gag.

[@Oliver_Karlsson]

Thank you so much for this high-quality documentary video. This type of stuff is the best of KZbin in my opinion.

[@ie2304]

I wholly agree. Multi-hour, high quality video essays such as this are what make KZbin for me.

[@LanternMouse]

Never really paid attention to Mario Maker troll levels until I started watching SimpleFlips, they are great and I'm very glad to find a long video essay about them!

[@zoliking]

Great vid! You know, I'm building a full troll game as we speak, though it's not the big budget game you've predicted. :D I'm sure that's eventually coming too.

[@frimi8593]

Do you plan to post anything about it to your channel?

[@zoliking]

​@@frimi8593 I have a channel for the game but it doesn't have much on it at the moment. I'm planning to post the next dev vlog video in about a month.

[@sdsign4229]

My god, when and where can I be notified please???

[@zoliking]

@@sdsign4229 I can put the e-mail address you have on your youtube account on a list, then eventually I'll send out a newsletter type deal when I post an update. Would that be okay with you?

[@COZITIME]

Exciting, can you tease us with what genre you're making a mockery off?

[@DesTr069]

Back on Mario Maker on 3DS, I created a level based on 7 trolly pieces, and gave it to a friend to play. This was on the school bus. When he finally got to the end with the key and touched the flagpole, he just removed the cartridge, and got off the bus. Such a funny moment. Amazing video!

[@Mandobun08]

as someone who made troll levels a long time ago, i very much appreciate this video for teaching the art of troll levels, might help me get back into the groove of doing it :)

[@AbruptAvalanche]

Oh man I remember that "holy shit it's a twice twice!" moment in Elden Ring. I really do feel like there is more room for troll level design philosophy to make its way into other games. It must be implemented carefully though, as to not be too frustrating. Great video!

[@ShadwSonic]

About "inverting the goal", this concept was recognized as worthwhile much earlier than Mario Maker. Karoshi is a series of Flash games about a worker whose only goal is to kill himself, resulting in a neat series of platforming puzzles. SMW hacking actually pulled that trick with Mario physics a few times itself. Sometimes this was straight Karoshi style, in other cases it was the death animation being cancelled (and thus reviving Mario) if it hit a certain block type.

[@thegay]

I used to playtest levels like 4 years ago and completely forgot how much I loved everything about troll levels. Thank you so much for making this and bringing me back, and thank you for making legitimately the most engaging video I've watched in recent memory :)

[@jkattack2640]

as soon as he brought up deceit, I KNEW the dry bones swap would show up. Honestly probably my favorite troll of all time.

[@briancaster2876]

Ok, I cant believe i just watched a nearly 3 hour video essay on a sub sub genre of game I'd never heard of before. This was fascinating and kudos to the creator. Might have to go check some of these videos now.

[@user-tf6he5qg2h]

Basically what makes good troll levels good is that when you play them even while getting trolled you can appreciate them being funny and creative. Surprise and exaggeration are core elements of comedy so a good troll is slapstick comedy, making you laugh even while you get trolled.

[@pyritenightmare]

One of my favorite games as a kid was "This is the Only Level": It featured a simple one-screen platforming section with a central button, spikes, a gate, and an exit pipe. The player controls an elephant with slightly bouncy physics, which immediately is re-dispensed from the entrance if it dies. When you reach the exit pipe, the color palette swaps and the game mechanics change... but it's all still on the same map, with the same elephant. Something I've loved in games is playing with the rules given. Baba is You is a much more in-depth game which does so and while not a "troll" game exactly, I find it captures much of the appeal in a different way. You know how the game works, but your preconceived notions get in the way. The game also often encourages "easy" solutions that don't actually work and often lead to trolly results, such as disabling the win condition. I've also found that the rise of MM Troll Levels has coincided with the rise of a different trend in gaming: Challenge runs. Especially challenge runs that test both game knowledge and encourage sequence-breaking and other glitches. It definitely feels like an era of punk Renaissance in gaming. When you look back on it, it actually seems like a natural progression after the success of the roguelike genre. It makes the games eternal, repeatable, and stretchable by creating new experiences by changing the rules and breaking the game. By taking what you know and turning it into something new so you can enjoy it again and in a new way. Troll levels are art, yet like with all art, it exists within its era. This isn't a downside, obviously. All of the art in an era influences others, and I think there's a lot to say about the era troll levels are in. Would love to see a follow-up or addendum talking about this, if you're up for it!

[@BlainesEscapeCorner]

Troll levels were what got me into SMM2 originally.

[@MumboJ]

Honestly, just seeing the massive grins and raucous laughter from the people playing the levels, shows more than anything the essence of the art form. These levels are frustrating and belittling and absolutely infuriating, but they're also clearly beloved by those who play them. ❤

[@draakisback]

I've been following the troll community for a long time, specifically Carl. I don't even play Mario Maker or super Mario world rom hacks and yet I really enjoy watching this type of content. I remember when Carl first encountered the first official twice twice in the form of simplectic's level, "Carl does everything twice twice". One of my favorite trolls of all time is the one where you end up on this conveyor belt and it looks to be moving to the left indefinitely but after waiting for a while you realize that it's not moving at all and it's just that there are some launchers on a conveyor belt below you. This is a great video man It really does highlight how you can break the rules of game design in a way that does not make the game itself frustrating for the player. There's a meta conversation happening between the player and the level maker in the case of troll levels and it's compelling to watch and play these types of levels because of that. Rather than attempting to check the player on their mechanical or knowledge-based skills, you invert that concept and end up torturing them psychologically. I do remember running into the twice twice in elden ring and laughing my head off. Also, it's interesting that some indie developers are also involved in the creation of troll rom hacks. It just goes to show you that eventually this will become a mainstream way of designing video games.

[@BeanbonVG]

I made a troll level by accident once. The idea was that you’d see a poison mushroom map out your course between scrolling halls, one of which leads to the exit. I made the map mislead the player and lead them to death by mistake. I wanted to fix it at first, but it’s actually pretty funny looking back

[@Meese12]

Side note, but the subtitles on this video are fantastic. I don't know if this was IR themselves or one of their subscribers, but it's depressingly rare to see subtitles that convey who's speaking, so to see that alongside proper intonation (which is even more rare) is incredible. Good job on whoever did them.

[@InfernalRamblings]

As I've said before, I have some minor auditory processing issues myself so I consider subtitles to be a must-have here. Fortunately YT has a good tool for taking a script and automatically cutting up and timing the subtitles. The interviews and clips, on the other hand... 😩

[@ChanceTheCheetah]

I really appreciate you at the very end, shouting the playtesters and VoD editors. The unsung heroes!

[@CrashTestCollin]

The "thrice thrice" in Elden Ring is the Leyndell Catacombs found underneath Leyndell. It's especially tricky because it doesn't use teleporters. It either uses a graphical trick or a trick of the level design to "loop" you around new iterations while making you feel like you're going in circles. If I recall correctly, there's also windows that will bring you to previous iterations when you go through them. I didn't realize there was an end to the dungeon when I first found it. I thought it was a twice twice because I remembered the other twice twice and thought I was going in circle circles.

[@AngeloHollow]

This came up in my recommended, and I was NOT prepared to watch what I thought I would be watching. I'm glad I stuck around to see this. It has given me so much creative insight, remind me the things I love about videogames and art, and has made me see the light to this other side of creating levels that I had no idea existed.

[@Nicrocon]

28:55 - 35:40 I love this section a lot as I enjoy learning about game design, and seeing someone analyze the different parts of a small section of a game and the decisions and reasoning behind each part really helps me see what I should think about when designing a game. For a bit I even completely forgot I was watching a documentary about troll levels, and was just watching a video about game design.

[@rubengoldman5830]

Similarities between troll levels and onions: --Layers --Potential to make someone cry

[@sdsign4229]

Also, becomes sweeter the more you cook them to perfection!

[@Defender1031]

@@sdsign4229 And they work well in new soup...?

[@macmadness5932]

after finishing it, i really love this video. you pretty much touched on everything i was hoping you would, carl, 7 trolly pieces, different types of trolls, nintendo, wagon world, defender, and even a 1-1 analogy the one piece of useless info i would like to add is that the term 'twice twice' comes from a mario maker level called 'larl does everything twice twice' (directed at carl sagan) the reason that level was called 'larl does everything twice twice' is because after playing through the level, you have to play through the level again with everything being slightly different. this type of trolling, of course, was covered in the vidoe. after that, theres an ending troll that sends you back to CP0, forcing you to play the whole level again. this meant that carl had to play the whole level twice, and had to play each section of that level twice. in other words, larl did everything twice, twice. mind the comma however, during the first play through of the level, at the second section, carl misunderstood the title, and started calling the trolls in the second section 'twice twice' 's. the incorrect name eventually caught on with other creators and players as creators started copying the concept on a much smaller scale, used for only single trolls, before they slowly scaled back up to entire sections or levels. none of them are technically true twice twices, as they dont force the player to go back and play through both sections again (a total of 4 times), so theyre really more twice once's. however, the slang has become catchy enough to persist to even today

[@manasgarg2058]

Wow. I’ve been watching Carl play Mario maker troll levels for 5 years. This video was awesome and I recognized almost every level in this video lol. Go trolls!

[@sophiegrey9576]

glad you included STEEEEVOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO's work

[@Zack207]

It's so cool someone made a video essay about troll levels, and this looks like some really high-quality content too. Can't wait to watch!

[@randomclips9715]

lol someone made a 9 hour video on troll levels the day before this one was released

[@ConManAU]

As a long-time watcher of all the streamers featured here, thank you for such a detailed analysis of troll levels. The comparison to Duchamp’s urinal, or maybe John Cage’s 4’33”, is very apt. Not that I’d want the video to be even longer, but I think the only major aspect that was lacking was a bit more detail on the actual origin of troll levels. The link to hot garbo is absolutely true, but they also share a lot of DNA with early kaizo levels. In fact, some of the first proto-troll levels were made by Carl and GrandPooBear for each other and involved sections with serious platforming mixed with horrible garbage. Still, I commend you for all the research you did, including talking to key people in front of the camera and behind the scenes. And for digging up such classic clips from SMM 1 and 2 to articulate your points.

[@wileecoyotegenius5955]

Troll levels are some of the most intricately designed levels in Mario Maker and I'm both impressed and terrified that all that effort went into something that is designed to torture the person playing it.

[@Hk_498]

From this one video alone, combined with just the titles/thumbnails of your other content, I already know I’m in for a genuine treat here and will totally be binging the rest as soon as I next have the time. Instant sub.

[@PressRToZeus]

Dude this is exactly the kind of documentary i wanted to make if i didn't have enough to deal with already. you're a brilliant star for making this documentary and the level of depth you went into explaining things was beautiful. thank you so much, the troll community thanks you

[@hajilee4539]

I gotta say, I really appreciate the numbered clips that coincide with a spreadsheet. Far too often when watching videos like these I see a clip I want to check out, check the description to find nothing, and then spend way too long trying to find it myself. As an editor myself I know that must have been a royal pain to set up, but it improves the viewing experience a lot!

[@beetlepainter00]

I originally clicked on this video to see funny mario troll levels, but you used that pretense as a chance to talk about genuine game design concepts. Incredible video, thank you for the 3 hours of amazing game design video

[@Awesomeness-iz3dh]

The discussion of the nature of art and video games as art reminds me of one of my favorite gags I've seen in a game. It's a small detail, but in Super Lesbian Animal RPG, there is a setting in the options menu that's just called "art" with the description "Toggles whether or not the game is considered art." It also features a "ludonarrative dissonance" slider. Neither actually affects the game, but I find them both clever and amusing.

[@bIindguy123]

The fanfare at 27:59 was the last nail in the coffin. Subbed, this has been a fantastic watch so far, looking forward to the rest of the video!

[@macmadness5932]

this video needs so much more attention, troll levels have a bad rep and arent as well known as they ought to be

[@jacoblabowitz4726]

Amazing video! As an avid troll viewer for many years, it is great to see such an in depth look at them from such an analytical view! There’s so much nuance here that was so enjoyable to listen to!

[@Bobbias]

What a brilliantly written video essay. I've been a fan of troll levels since very early on, and I've been wondering how long it would take before I stumbled onto a video essay like this. I think you've done a truly incredible job of both breaking down what makes a good troll level, as well as explaining what it is about troll levels that we all love so much. I really hope that your channel grows from this. You've put so much effort into this, and it really shows. I don't think anyone could have asked for a better video essay about troll levels. I have often struggled to explain why I think troll levels are both absolutely hilarious, and some of the most innovative level design I've seen in any game ever, but you've absolutely nailed everything I've struggled to put into words. While you may be an outsider to the community, your love and enthusiasm for troll levels, and game design in general, clearly shines through in the amount of care and attention you've put into this essay.

[@diddymelone2265]

wow what a trip, I didnt know anything about troll levels before. in fact I thought they were simply stupid "haha gotcha" levels, that you'll hate to find yourself in sometimes. great video

[@sdsign4229]

Do yourself a favor and watch some vids from the attached google doc. There are some amazing troll levels you gotta check out!

[@dominicwillis3864]

Fantastic video! Prior to watching, I was only vaguely aware of what troll levels are, but this video has helped me understand them much better and has given me a whole new appreciation for what goes into making them and playing them.

[@josephshovelbrotherbradfor9956]

This is so well made, you should be so proud with how it turned out

[@Red_Biker_Dude]

I know this video has 20k views, but I still think it deserves more

[@2030games]

I cannot explain how happy I am that this video exists. Trolling is Art!!!

[@sdsign4229]

And Fart!

[@joonboi84]

What I always wanted was how the setups worked. I like contraptions and loved seeing the behind the scenes of defender’s level and soups levels. I feel that is ALSO a way to learn how to make troll levels, as learning HOW to make what worked, can help you create new stuff.

[@patentpending7016]

thank you soooooo much for including accurate and grammatically correct captions on this video! it means a lot to me, and i don’t even need the captions lol, they’re just good for my focus. given how long this video is, it must have taken a lot of time, and that effort and consideration is noted and appreciated

[@RedGoner]

This is the kind of video that makes me go "darn, I wish I made this first." (This means it's extremely good)

[@Sizzyl]

This video is a masterclass is storytelling. Reminds me of an old man I used to listen to telling me fairytales, even as I got older and know every single story he would tell, the way he told the story itself was more than enthralling enough. Unless I suddenly get rich some day, this might be the only "Super Thanks" I ever give on KZbin directly. I really hope you continue these Infernal Ramblings about things you enjoy, I will continue to watch them even if I might not comment on each one.

[@InfernalRamblings]

Thank you so much

[@maskofice9432]

I have loved watching troll levels, especially Carl, for a long while. This video is fantastic, I'm early in it, but I love seeing the actual game design break down.

[@kalfyradragoness9330]

I absolutely love the self awareness of your videos! I love mario troll levels even though I don't play this game, but I watch this stuff on the regular as I'm looking to get into map design for Doom II, Quake and Quake II. I'm taking mad notes because I'd love to see how well I can adapt the methdology of mario maker troll levels into these kinds of levels.

[@Riley26]

Never in my life would I think that a 3 hour video about troll levels in mario maker can be so fascinating. Amazing content and quality!

[@FinnishArsonist]

Another example of troll design outside SMM is Hollow Knight's Deepnest. it's whole core design is based around the breach of contract, subverting many expectations you had about the game, and it makes the entire area INCREDIBLY anxious and terrifying, not helped by the atmosphere. Spoilers for deepnest, because I think it's absolutely brilliant (and awful) to witness for yourself: it's the only place where enemies can appear directly on top of you, direnctly beneath vertical drops there are crumbling floors that lead directly onto spikes, there is the only fake bench (save point), there are paths that lead nowhere (in a metroidvania!), there is this absolutely brilliant place where there are 4 grubs in a row (collectible things in the world), and the first, second, and 4th are mimics, brilliantly subverting that 'rule of 3', especially since the 4th is placed a bit more out of the way, making you think 'oh yeah that's the real one', There even is an example of that game design blasphemy: the place is the biggest area in the game, is shaped like a maze, and has only 3 exits, one of which you have to go through the other way to unlock it - and one of them has a crumbling floor at the exit that leads you straight back into the very heart of the place again. this is downright cruel, as the place is generally somewhere you don't want to be, and having it right as you are leaving the place is cruel, in the best possible way - it gives off this feeling of 'nowhere is safe'

[@will2998]

Man the comment section is filled with legends from SMM troll community. Both the creator and the players!

[@Rubbly]

vid kept popping into my recommended, finally clicked and glad i did! Great quality video, very obviously high effort! thanks to all involved, and thank you for describing everything so well!

[@legofan431]

This video is written so well, I can't even begin to describe my fascination with your elegant plays on words. Really enjoyable

[@BoesaOpa]

Hi. Nice to see you here.

[@universalperson]

I'm going to make an argument here: The first troll moment in any Super Mario Lost Levels 1-1. If the player breaks the first row of ? Blocks, they are "rewarded" with a poison mushroom. The actual Mushroom was hidden earlier in unmarked blocks. Lost Levels was the original Super Mario 2 in Japan. Imagine the reactions to this trick back in the day. Trolling has been part of Mario since near the start.

[@PokeRedstone]

For people wondering, the twice twice is named for the classic level “Larl does everything twice, twice,” which popularized the tactic; the title referencing how you would need to play a section 4 times. Die once to the first troll, pass the first troll, die once to the second troll, pass the second troll.

[@MumboJ]

I'm surprised you didn't mention the "anti-anti-softlock", where you convince the player that they have been softlocked, that they need to either reset or kill mario to progress, when actually there is a hidden solution either by waiting a few seconds or by finding a secret path out.