How to make 'Mason's Mitre' worktop joints with a router and jig

[@NorfolkRed]

And another one for not using the quick clamps, I also have had one slip messing up the joint. So it is the trusty Record G clamps for me. Nice video Alistair for anyone that has not done that joint.

[@tonyconnor5691]

You can't beat bessy clamps

[@statesidechippie]

Did this in my Level 2. 15years ago. Love these jigs. It’s worth buying spiral up and down cut bits that can be resharpened.

[@matthewwhitley]

Really helpful, thank you. About to do my first one this afternoon!!

[@Alastair_Freebird]

Glad it helped!

[@jonq8714]

I love the look of this, I'm building a maple worktop for my kitchen and was wondering how this sort of joint handles wood expansion.

[@Alastair_Freebird]

That's a good thing to keep in mind - solid wood is liable to shrink perpendicular to the direction of the grain, which means that the end grain (male) side of this joint could in theory move/reduce along the line of the joint. In my opinion it would be best to add a precisely located domino or dowel near to the front edge of the joint to lock that in place. Then all along the joint there should be biscuits or dominos holding the pieces tight flush to each other (so the top surface is held flush) but in slots that are a little oversize to allow lateral movement. The worktop bolts can also allow a small amount of lateral movement. Then shrinkage is likely to move towards the joint (pulling away from wall). I'm sure opinions on this will differ as ideally there would be glue to hold the joint tight and hygienic, so this would work against allowing movement. I would be interested to hear the opinion of any experienced solid worktop kitchen fitters. One of the reasons that solid wood worktops are made from multiple small staves of wood is to minimise or at least regularise the shrinkage. One thing I know for sure is that you should NOT do a full mitre joint on solid wood worktops as that is guaranteed to open up a joint, as each worktop retracts from the corner.

[@jonq8714]

@@Alastair_Freebird thank you for the well thought out response my friend.

[@Alastair_Freebird]

@@jonq8714 you're welcome!

[@duncansarmy]

Love a good joint

[@adriandotsmall]

👍 seen people use the jig for the bolts but not the part for aligning the two sections together.

[@morganskinner3863]

First time I fitted a kitchen we were too skint to have a router so I cut the worktops by hand with a handsaw. They turned out really well. My top tip is to seal the cut edge with varnish (or similar) to waterproof it. That stops any water ingress from pushing up the top of the worktop over time with use and cleaning.

[@Alastair_Freebird]

It sounds like you have amazing skill with a handsaw!

[@malcolmlongfield3378]

I just done one by hand last week, when i fitted the joint it was near so i just put my milti tool straight down the joint. Evened it out luvley

[@Akenaye]

Hi Alister, great videos and work, try an angled ratchet spanner for those type of bolts, keep up the good work 👌

[@Alastair_Freebird]

jampurves can you post a link to the type of spanner?

[@Akenaye]

Freebird Interiors I’ve had mine for years, was just a 10mm made by rolson....on searching for a link to them I discovered this......www.toolstation.com/wera-joker-combination-ratchet-wrench/p32615?store=GT&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI3M_e_cL46gIVFeDtCh2SrQGpEAQYAiABEgLxlPD_BwE

[@Akenaye]

Freebird Interiors here’s the angled/offset type I was on about also....www.toolstation.com/offset-ratchet-spanner-set/p88917

[@Alastair_Freebird]

jampurves thanks

[@C03MUNCH]

Nice Video. I’ve been doing a few of these lately still slow. However I never get a square room. How do you compensate for a room that’s out of square. I have a way but it tends to be a bit hit and miss… as it involves sliding the male cut round at an angle scribed into the female cut. It doesn’t take much to be out. Any tips?

[@Alastair_Freebird]

That is a tricky one because as soon as you make this hockey stick cut at anything other than 90 degrees you get an imperfect line up of the bullnose. Unless you can cleverly tilt the Jig by the same amount on both male and female parts so that the little 45degree return cut for mitring the bullnose perfectly bisects the new angle but then your kind of working blind without the positive stops that come with the jig. A slightly different angle may be acceptable and you can fill the difference with colour. Sorry if that doesn’t really answer… to be honest there are far more experienced users of these jigs out there than me!

[@rubiconexotic8753]

@@Alastair_Freebird I’d like to think you’d fit the units square to compensate for an out of square room. Providing they’ve given you over sized end panels 😄 but yea if the rooms out of square you’d fit the units square and scribe worktops in to wall. I’m no expert but I am a carpenter that’s what I do

[@Alastair_Freebird]

@@rubiconexotic8753 that certainly makes sense to me too, within a certain angle - if the angle gets very obtuse then it may be best to run the units parallel to the walls

[@jrsuk1170]

About the festool router. I bought one about 6 years ago from NB specifically for worktops. Straight out of the box there was a problem with the guide bush not sitting snugly in it's housing. The guide bush (supplied with the machine) would wiggle about which is obviously going to comprise accuracy. I contacted NB about this and they checked the others in stock and they all did it too so unfortunately I had to return the router. It would be interesting to see if this problem has been resolved, or maybe it was just a bad batch.

[@Alastair_Freebird]

JRS UK did it not have a sub plate like the trend - the bush fits tight into the sub plate but the sub plate moves and has to be centred using the 30mm centring insert?

[@jrsuk1170]

@@Alastair_Freebird No it works differently. You use the quick release lever to open the hinged base and you then slot the guide bush / copy ring in. You can also use the same housing for the chip deflector in other applications. On mine, and the others tested by NB, the guide bush had movement. I now have the Makita which works differently again from the Trend. With Makita there is a quick release lever that locks the guide bush firmly in place. I've had no problems with this on my Makita but the dust collection is rubbish.

[@Alastair_Freebird]

JRS UK quick release would be useful

[@RueFondary]

@@Alastair_Freebird I have a Festool OF1400, and don't think it is the best model for guide bush work... the quick release system is convenient, but there can be some play in it, and there is no easy way to adjust the guide bush if it's not perfectly centered... I'd also add that the dust collection accessories are very fragile and fiddly. The benefit of the OF1400 is that it's plug-and-play with some unique Festool accessories, including the LR32 drilling template and the MFS400/700 routing template, but otherwise it's nothing special or innovative. My very old Porter Cable 7529 plunge router is better when using guide bushes and in terms of dust collection design (its edge guide accessory is also very robust and precise). The smaller Festool router (OF1010) has a more confidence inspiring dust collection system (similar to my PC router), but can't take 1/2" router bits... and the bigger, and more expensive OF2020 isn't perfect either for hand held work (and lacks the plug-it system as well), although I don't have direct experience with these other models in the Festool range.

[@Alastair_Freebird]

Francois Lafaix this is all very interesting and helpful thanks - so the festool routers aren’t perfect!

[@mikeclewlow6510]

Best way is do one shallow pass. Then hog the waste out with a jigsaw. Then do the final passes with the router. I've fitted hundreds of the things.

[@Alastair_Freebird]

Mike Clewlow do you mean you would run the jigsaw over top of the jig still in place?

[@mikeclewlow6510]

@@Alastair_Freebird that's the one. Use a jigsaw on the jig. Once you've made your first pass with the router. You can cut all the waste off. It does save on cutters. And gives a very clean cut

[@azhmehmood]

Great job 👍

[@michaelplays2449]

Great video thanks

[@Alastair_Freebird]

Michael plays I’m glad you liked it thanks for commenting

[@RueFondary]

Thanks for this interesting and helpful video. I also noticed the good camera work, with relevant camera angles. Well done Team Freebird!

[@Alastair_Freebird]

Francois Lafaix thanks for that comment we appreciate it!

[@khaleelghoora9467]

Can you explain how to use trend jog for worktop dept 620 as they don't have it on their jig. They have 616 nearest to

[@Alastair_Freebird]

I think it would still work... I'm not sure as I haven't actually done this for a while now!!

[@klaraweaver7408]

Do you have to use a 1/2 inch? I have a 1/4 inch router with no option to size up the collet.

[@Alastair_Freebird]

Needs a lot of power, I wouldn't recommend using a 1/4" router for this

[@klaraweaver7408]

@@Alastair_Freebird Noted, thanks! Successfully did the worktop with a 1/2"

[@mamashama9749]

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on the trend T11. I have a small hand trimmer and a Bosch 1/4" and I was looking to get the Trend as a 1/2" router.

[@Alastair_Freebird]

Mama Shama T11 for router table use T10 for hand held. Same basic machines as the DeWalt. Flimsy brittle dust ports are annoying. And on my T10 the depth stop tightening system scraped off its own measuring scale tape. So a few poor design features. But see other comments here about festool router failings too. Sounds like makita might be a good option.

[@mamashama9749]

@@Alastair_Freebird thanks for the info. As I understand it the Trend is essentially the same as the DeWalt but with some added features to make it more useful in a router table - I think that would be my primary use for it. The Bosch is also one I am considering as it comes with the 2 bases which makes switching between router table and hand held a little easier and quicker

[@Alastair_Freebird]

Mama Shama the trend T11 is the router table variation of the trend T10. The T10 is just like the dewalt I think

[@garethheathcote4988]

Marma sharmeryou won't go wrong with the trend,trend is the name for all things router here in the uk. Get yourself one of their two part hinge jigs aswell,you won't regret it!

[@blunderz2699]

Should the mitre always be cut with the worktop face down

[@Alastair_Freebird]

No I don't think it needs to from a cutting/chipping point of view be but you may have to place it upside down to get the right shape of cut while keeping the jig face side up

[@Alastair_Freebird]

check out this guide from howdens - pages 130-131: www.flipsnack.com/howdens/howdens-fitted-kitchen-installation-guide/full-view.html

[@garethheathcote4988]

They don't teach you how to cut these joints when doing a carpentry and joinery nvq,or.they didn't when I did my 3 nvq,s. This is the first time I've actually heard it called a masons mitre,I've always known it as a butt and scribe joint. I just got a jig from howdens and followed the instructions that came with the jig,they are pretty easy you just have to give your cut a bit of care and attention and then make sure that you have them lined up properly on the top and depth wise as you clamp it up.. Nice video though freebird interiors,you have another subscriber!

[@ben_mac8670]

Can you use smaller sized bushes? for example if you used a 12mm bush in diameter would it just make a bigger cut! but male and female would still match?? thank you.

[@Alastair_Freebird]

I think the male and female would not match with any other bushing!

[@MM2009]

how to join rounded end worktop lengthwise with 200mm parallel offset?? thanks

[@Alastair_Freebird]

I'm sorry I can't picture it but i hope you figured it out!

[@fireblaster9961]

Even easier when it’s square edge worktops as you can just carefully take off the joint section of edging and then just do the bolt holes

[@Alastair_Freebird]

brendan ford yes, although there is some controversy about the rights and wrongs of that method and some joiners insist a small masons mitre is best for square edged worktops too!

[@fireblaster9961]

I personally when doing this cut mark where the router is going to cut, jig saw out the mass and then the cutter is only cutting a small amount and there’s no bit of worktop that falls away.

[@thomashawkins2395]

Great vid need some dust port on that routa hard to see you both at the end :)

[@Alastair_Freebird]

Thomas Hawkins I agree, fragile trend dust port is broken!

[@thomashawkins2395]

Freebird Interiors need to get someone to 3d print some am sure there is a market

[@jamesbailand4311]

Alister, how do you find the T11 when used in a router table?

[@Alastair_Freebird]

It’s good for that. My problems with the T10 and T11 are some parts aren’t durably designed, especially the dust port but when use in router table none of it is so much of an issue

[@jamesbailand4311]

@@Alastair_Freebird Aye, I've got the T10, its good but not without faults. It's as though they spec the cheapest plastic possible for the dust port... all the routers around this price point seem to not be without issues. Festool and now Bosch having the dust port built into the base plate looks fantastic. But, the adjustment on the T11 for use in a router table makes it very appealing, for that purpose.

[@Normanskie]

***** thank you.

[@collcolin]

You didn’t sand the cut edges did you? It makes all the difference to a good joint

[@Alastair_Freebird]

collcolin I didn’t but I can see the sense of that

[@garyblake3130]

Hi, very surprised to learn that Brady never did the worktop joint at college. It is very much part of the level 2 diploma qualification, and all our learners are taught this joint at my college. On a side note to this it always makes me smile when I hear this called a mason's mitre, I would call it a butt and mitre. Before all the kitchen fitters out there jump on me they really need to check out stone mason's to see what a mason's mitre really is, because as the name suggests that is where it originated from stone masonry. I guess in reality you can call it what you like as long as you make a good joint. It's a bit like in my early days clamps were called cramps as sold by British companies like Record, but since the Americanisation of woodwork with the likes of KZbin they have become clamps. I am happy to explain this further about the joint if required, I did try to post a picture here but it would not allow me to.

[@Alastair_Freebird]

Gary Blake are you a tutor then? I believe the term masons mitre is correct in this usage - as opposed to a continuous 45degree woodworking mitre which presumably would be less suitable for masonry as it would create fragile 45 degree corners. I also remember my DT teachers at school constantly correcting us from ‘clamps’ to ‘cramps’ but clamps always sounded right to me and it seems to have stuck!

[@garyblake3130]

@@Alastair_Freebird Yes I am an instructor at my local college, I trained and spent over 40 years as a cabinet maker, making fine reproduction furniture, and high quality joinery. A mason's mitre does not actually have a mitre fun the way that the worktop does, it is difficult to explain without diagrams, but as I said the term comes from stone masons and they did not cut mitres, it was carved into the stone. I can send you some diagrams of what true mason's mitre is but not sure how to do it via KZbin. In a mason's mitre you do not remove any timber on the female part it bis butted up and the mitre is carved in. If you make a glazed and rebated door frame you remove part of the mould exactly as you do with the worktop on the stiles and mitre the rails in. If you do a search on google you just get what people have now come to call a worktop joint as a mason's mitre, I do find this quite amusing but that's life I guess. The jig we use at my college comes from Screwfix I believe and on none of the accompanying paper work do they mention mason's mitre.

[@Alastair_Freebird]

Gary Blake I am interested now, yes send me diagrams via my email found at www.freebirdinteriors.co.uk (I don’t know if posting the email directly here might attract spam)

[@Alastair_Freebird]

Gary Blake just seems you’ve sent images now. Aha, I understand perfectly what you mean now!

[@garyblake3130]

@@Alastair_Freebird I was just thinking did Brady study the bench joinery or the site carpentry course? as it is on the site carpentry course that we do the kitchen fitting.

[@ChrisSmith-nr8wh]

Where can I get a template of that gig?

[@Alastair_Freebird]

Search kitchen fitters jigs they are commonly sold - screwfix, toolstation etc

[@deadfool3344]

We did it in college once, and they expect you to be confident and remember exactly how to do it 🤷‍♂️ rush rush

[@AD-or5rm]

Hi Alistair, where do you buy the guide bush centre bit? I've struggled to find one and would be quite handy. Thanks

[@Alastair_Freebird]

A D I’m honestly not sure, I’ve had it for ages and I think it must have either come with the router itself (the T10 version) or else it came in a kitchen fitters pack along with the trend 30mm bushing I’ve got

[@AD-or5rm]

No worries, thanks for the reply and great videos

[@garethheathcote4988]

A D I ised to have a fifty pound cheap router from b and q when I first started cutting these joints and that had come supplied with the required 30mm guide bush,if your router doesn't have one then I would suggest that you search through google by for example searching something like dewalt 30mm router guide bush. Failing that trend definitely sell them as well as the 16mm ones for use with their hinge jigs.

[@curtylou]

Screw fix

[@AD-or5rm]

@@curtylou no chance. I got one from tend direct in the end. I got a dewalt one off ebay to start with, when it arrived I found it was 12mm so nfg. The trend one is okay but not 100% perfect. Works okay for me though

[@Dan-tj7ft]

Get a elu router, they were brilliant back in the day.

[@Alastair_Freebird]

Dan I remember the guy I first trained with saying that and he had a really nice old one with dust extraction up one of the pillars which was a great idea. What happened to them did the company disappear?

[@noskills9577]

Freebird Interiors absorbed by dewalt

[@sicpac66t]

Never use them clamps. Who taught you ?

[@Alastair_Freebird]

sicpac66 nobody taught me, as you can probably tell 😁

[@kingstonbespoke]

Very brave using quick clamps to hold the jig. I’ve had them slip before and really ruin my day and costing me a few hundred on a new surface

[@SBTDesigndotcodotuk]

Same, been there!

[@kingstonbespoke]

SBT_Design always use my trusty G clamps and a scrap piece if clamping on to the finished surface.

[@rossmale8715]

Yeah it's happened to me too! Lol

[@shaunmullen6934]

Mee too haha fuk that

[@tonyconnor5691]

You can't beat bessy clamps

[@jamesbailand4311]

The other angle is to split a 45' instead of a 90'.

[@jamesbailand4311]

@Rob V. It is a less common design now than back in the 90's say, but it just depends on the kitchen layout and design.

[@garethheathcote4988]

James bail and I've never once seen a kitchen worktop cut on a 45 in my thirty years in the building game. It would be a nightmare to get it lined up properly due to the corners very rarely being a true ninety and even if you bisected the angle I would still consider it to be rough as fuck as would any joiner worth his salt!

[@gpcrawford8353]

I notice no noise protection on the ears even short exposure to loud noise can damage hearing.

[@Alastair_Freebird]

I must admit I rarely wear ear defenders. Thanks for the reminder

[@frank1847]

You are so right, I started chippying in 1963 no one wore ear defenders then. We never knew consequence is I am very deaf. Young chippies out there wear your ear defenders, every time.

[@deea2680]

@@Alastair_Freebird I was the same, at 53 years old started getting tinnitus, a few years later I am really suffering.....

[@Alastair_Freebird]

Sorry to hear that and thanks for the reminder

[@kelvindobie1564]

No ear defenders...?

[@Alastair_Freebird]

I’m afraid not

[@KraftyOneAudio]

You can’t shunt it back if it’s measured to fit. Also trend router’s are not that bad. If your a decent tradey then should be busy enough to buy the router you feel suits your workload. Like if the trend is that bad then why post a video of you using it at a professional level demonstrating!

[@Alastair_Freebird]

Hi we don’t really do kitchens, I wasn’t using a half inch router regularly; having bought this one it did the job but it annoyed me, just on some of the details that seemed unnecessarily fragile.

[@aljones4719]

Certainly NOT a mason's mitre. The cutback should be smalller, just sufficient to deal with the radius on the top edge.

[@Rob........811]

I never move my router sideways, always push

[@marksmeaton1564]

Jesus! Its like listening to my old woodwork teacher. This guy is crushingly boring. Ineed to go and sleep now.

[@Alastair_Freebird]

Nighty night!

[@tonyconnor5691]

I always use domino's on joints

[@jeffreycunningtown5730]

I will try to do it with Woodglut plans.

[@robertcarter5540]

You never cut a male joint first...shocking

[@Alastair_Freebird]

Robert Carter tell us more, why is that? The comments are a great place to add to the knowledge.

[@traveller017]

Makes no difference which one you cut first in a workshop. When cutting a right hand joint on site we cut the female joint first, place it in position, then lay an over sized length of worktop on top of it.Then, scribe along the female joint with a pencil onto the underside of the male piece. This gives you the exact angle to allow for walls being out of square. Just remember to mark a line 8mm back from your scribe line then line your jig up with that. For a left hand joint, lay the oversized piece in position, lay the female on top of it then scribe the line onto the face of the male piece.

[@traveller017]

Excellent video by the way and very clearly described. Many joiners I have worked with don’t know about centring the guide bush. I buy good quality bushes now and can swap them over without having to re-align every time.

[@Alastair_Freebird]

se7en teen thanks for the explanations 👍

[@pauljames4905]

Yes you always cut the female joint first. I was surprised you didn't do this.

[@roderickmclean9927]

Please don’t mumble

[@Alastair_Freebird]

roderick mclean apologies. One day I will get a proper mic!

[@alhasan3148]

he was very poor skilled from a to z unfortunately

[@Alastair_Freebird]

The target market for a video like this is DIYers or young tradesmen just learning the basics. A bit of incompetence is comforting 😄

[@stevekis3643]

Hey Al, why don’t you show us how it’s done? Would be good to see how a professional does it…..

[@CJAY3.1.6]

Behave you helmet

[@Alastair_Freebird]

@@stevekis3643 you will need to find someone else to show you how a professional does it 😁 (seriously, I am not a kitchen fitter and hardly ever fit worktops)

[@stevekis3643]

@@Alastair_Freebird I was being sarcastic to the original poster (Al Hasan) for being a jackass. I love your work Alastair - keep it up.