How to Play Behind The Beat (no-bs examples for bassists & drummers)

[@samba1412]

Ian is a great addition to the team, one of the best teachers you’ve had

[@yuichituba]

I completely agree! He's great!

[@PatrickChannonInPost]

YES

[@BlooblooPea]

His explanations are simple and make sense to everyone :)

[@scarab944]

Agreed. Thorough explanations & contagious enthusiasm make for a great teacher.

[@dinglebass]

100%

[@CarlKennedyMusic]

One of the most valuable lessons in music and something understood by very, very few players or producers. This is another example that explains why quantizing sucks the life out of so many recordings. VERY WELL DONE GUYS!

[@dylanadams1455]

Yes! Also how bands would organically speed up or slow down in certain parts of a song unconsciously, to match the energy of the section.

[@smoothestbassist7086]

It didn't take me long to learn to hate the quantize function in my DAW for this very reason. Nothing else can wreck a really cool groove with one little click of a mouse button quite like it.

[@trevorprice2490]

I mean, start off with quantizing, but couldn't digital tools give you the ability to move the drums or bass behind the beat exactly the way that sounds the best?

[@future62]

​@@trevorprice2490this is exactly what I do. Midi latency makes it hard to nail the timing so I quantize and fix my feel afterwards. Tools aren't good or bad it's just how you use them

[@perpetualgrimace]

I've heard so many people talk about feel, or playing behind the beat. This is the absolute best explanation I've come across. You made it make sense.

[@tomasvanecek8626]

You have no idea.. read my comment above - not cos of me, but of John Paul Jones my man 😉 This is load of ... and you gotta be able to play it, thats it

[@perpetualgrimace]

@@tomasvanecek8626 yeah man I'll just scroll through the other 450+ comments until I find whatever it is you're talking about

[@tomasvanecek8626]

@@perpetualgrimace Well it it is right at the top of the comments now.. like 2 hrs ago

[@Gruuvin1]

​@@tomasvanecek8626it's at the top of the comments ONLY FOR YOU, because that's how KZbin works. The rest of us have no idea what you are rambling on about.

[@tomasvanecek8626]

@@Gruuvin1 Yeah, the YT shadow banning for dissenting voices.. how gh3y 😘.. lets see, I repost the important part again: Messing playing behind the beat with just slowing down, my gosh.... the drummer has to play also behind, kick and snare ... you both can BE behind... but keeping the time, at the same time, with hihat or ride... understand ? Bit difficult for the drummer... but both of you are so so wrong here.. JP Jones and Bonham often stretched it .. they even competed how far behind they can get, see it here, 11:52 from JPJ himself : "we had a contest.. how far can you go.." 12:34 - "show us an example..." kzbin.info/www/bejne/p5LEYpSuf5tmh8k Boys.. get your act together :)

[@kingkongkungkwang]

Everything about this video is confusing. The bassist looks like Scott, but the drummer sounds like Scott with American accent.

[@devinebass]

😂

[@adamkrayevsky4563]

Scott obviously has more personalities than one. I wonder how does it look like Scott the guitarist, Scott the vocalist, or Scott the dancer....

[@MikeNevill3]

It's the eyes .. I can tell it wasent them

[@PeerHond69]

@@adamkrayevsky4563 scott the dancer 😂 oh boy im gonna have some weird dreams tonight! 😂

[@ricethelizard7713]

Kind of reminds me of the Nolly playthrough, Scott playing some heavy chugs haha

[@Phlizz]

Ian is just great, it’s obvious that he’s an absolut genius on bass, still he breaks down the content in simple empathic explanations. always aware of the viewer/student.

[@BearKillsJF]

I'm really digging Scott's new American accent

[@ronlawrence5635]

I agree. He is much easier to understand.

[@flash001USA]

That is so funny because I pulled this up on my phone and at first glance I thought it was Scott and I expected to hear Scott then I heard an American accent in which point I had to take a second take.

[@ianleonard3264]

@@flash001USA same i saw this comment the video started and my brain ate itself

[@flash001USA]

@@ianleonard3264 Had I seen it on a computer screen I would have picked up on before he spoke.

[@ianleonard3264]

@@flash001USA ye im on my phone too i guess all i ever look for is bald and glasses apparently i dont look any closer as long as im given what im expected lmfao

[@jdmarino]

Love Ian's energy and ability to articulate technique. Adding Steve makes it better because of the drummer's perspective, but also because the 2 have a conversation. And we get to watch.

[@faithbassed49]

That bass is beautiful.

[@normg2242]

I've seen one in a store like this and the thin line around the pick guard was red, not black as it usually is. Looked so cool!

[@madaxe79]

Sounds fantastic too

[@RCAvhstape]

Fender calls that finish "antigua"

[@zzzyzzzyzzzyxxx]

What you are describing at around 7:20, re being a tad behind to let the drum transients through first is something that is often simulated in production vis a vis sidechaining a compressor on the bass track that is triggered by the kick. The effect is to lower the volume of the bass at the instant of the kick transient and then let the bass volume bloom back up as the compressor releases. I really enjoyed this video and have shared it with a few friends who have asked me to explain 'the pocket' and playing behind or on top. Thanks!

[@BaronVonQuiply]

That would probably remove some mud from my mixes. I'll have to give it a shot sometime.

[@Gruuvin1]

This is interesting that you can do this in the effects chain, either during or post. It also makes me appreciate what musicians were capable of before recording technology developed.

[@TheBoboMaker]

As a rhythmically challenged guitarist I'm just happy to be somewhere close to the beat.😂 Thanks for the demonstration guys. Gave me something to shoot for.

[@rinathama]

Hey me and you are the same 😂😂😂my timing sucks.

[@ricomajestic]

So what does the guitarist do when the bassist drummer start playing around the beat/

[@1965JB]

Love this actual discussion between a drummer and bass player. A lot of drummers I played with who had the “there’s only one way to groove, I know it and you don’t” attitude, which basically kills music, in my opinion. I played with a lot more drummers who didn’t need to say anything; 4 bars in and we both knew what’s up. Play with the musicians on stage, not some weird ideal.

[@ReallyDudeYouGottaHearThis]

This is great. No one ever discusses this topic. It effects the feel and sound of the band So much. Especially if someone is on top of the beat and pushing things ahead. I play with a ton of drummers who always speed up by the end of the song and you can’t pull them back. Also big band horns are always doing big hits on the back side of the beat. It just feels right.

[@walkerjohnclark]

This is the best discussion I've ever heard on the nuances of feel or groove in contemporary music.

[@matthewd6306]

Rick Beato has been talking about this for years on his KZbin channel. It allows both the punch of the Bass Drum and the tone of the bass the breath alittle.

[@normg2242]

Ian is a great guy to step in for ya, Scott. He has the same very amiable personality and passion not only for the bass, but also for sharing what he know as you do. I really like him and look forward to more videos. You,ve got a winner here. I must say that the same goes for the drummer. You seem to pick your folks very carefully and with good success. Keep it up, buddy!. Love it!

[@fromthistexasbreath]

I'd like to see a video with Ian, Scott, and Nolly, for the ultimate confusing video of 3 great bass players who look alike...

[@markblackstad8705]

Yeah, I'm digging the American Scott clone!

[@BartKebab]

One of my favorite funk bands, Vulfpeck, actually has its own compressor program that it runs over Joe Dart's bass which (in addition to elevating his already amazing tone to a whole other level) also has the same effect you talk about in this video of making his notes "grow" out of the drum notes. You can hear this very well in Dean Town (obviously most of the work and tone is in Joe's fingers but I just thought it was an interesting thing to share)

[@therealkpat]

As far as I know, in terms sound design with compressors, the amount you can shape the transients by playing with the attack parameter is in the milliseconds. I’m pretty sure what you refer to as Joe’s notes growing out of the drums is 99% to his credit as a great player. I might be wrong of course and the compressor IS the secret sauce

[@evieatarax]

@@therealkpatVulf Compressor is one of the integral parts to Joe's iconic sound. Just like Cory uses a compressor - it's not to compensate for any lack of playing ability, it just makes the transients hit harder and more consistent. The "growing out" is also because of the compressor's relatively long, squishy release time.

[@martybyrnemusic]

@@evieatarax I mean, obviously, in the studio things can and will be tweaked and tightened here and there. With compression (side chaining helping that "growing" effect) or just digital editing of individual notes to make them sit EXACTLY where everyone wants them. I am not saying Vulfpack can't play real tight in a live situation, but a commercial recording is going to tweak all of those notes (and if people say otherwise, they're lying)

[@georgecovetskie6717]

SO True ! I been playing bass since 1975 and out of all the things anyone ever showed me that improved my bass playing was exactly that ! Once I noticed this in the tunes I was learning, I was hooked! I found the behind the sceen sercret. I also noiticed how much it impacts the sound and feel of the tune. Bands and other musicians started noticing the difference in my playing and started calling me more for gigs. Even today, If I go listen to a band and the players, I notice how many bass players just Hit the bass from begining to end and never notice what they can do to improve that little thing. Thanks for sharing that. It was well worth it.

[@devinebass]

Thanks for checking out the video! Glad you enjoyed it 🤘🏻

[@joshuabrice3800]

I really enjoy these two working together. Having a knowledgeable drummer talk about they're part is so helpful.

[@mingusfan]

I could absolutely listen to Ian and Steve talk and jam all day!

[@darkgladiator27]

I like how the few notes the guy played felt more meaningful than all I'll probably ever be able to achieve with my bass

[@jwest707]

Don’t say that bro Keep practicing His playing is really meaningful but there’s no reason yours can’t be. If you put in the time and get after it, there’s nothing that can stop you. :)

[@robnagelhoutmusic]

after I got the basics of playing the bass down, these concepts were exactly what I spent years working on so that they would be deliberate and second nature. Such an important aspect of your role as a bass player and rhythm section. Awesome video and well explained!

[@sidvicioux]

guitar here. i'm a backline fanatic. mystified by it after 50 years of playing in front. great vid.

[@RKs_MusicLife]

This is pure gold for every musician. PERIOD!

[@Kubooxooki]

Is there any way these two can just broadcast their conversations 24/7 and the rest of us can just sit back, learn, and send them some pizza and drinks to keep them alive?

[@stephengoold]

I'm super into this idea :)

[@omagodosgraves]

Hahahaha I'm in

[@sambrownonbass]

This video is a masterpiece demonstration around this conversation, the best resource I've found for demonstrating the conversation and the physical approach to students - thank you both for this wonderful educational resource - Wish I'd had it 10 years ago!

[@bobdoyle3490]

I've struggled with this concept. Now I think I get it. When he said it's like my note (bass) grows out of your note (drums). Light bulb moment.

[@dylanadams1455]

As a guitarist, I love this channel. It really helps me appreciate the teamwork required for a good band. I've always thought of the pocket as more of an unconscious feel, I was just playing what I thought sounded good. I remember being in a two guitar band, and I would always be a little behind the other guy. I just liked the groove!

[@devinebass]

Thanks for the love, fellow musician! Groove and teamwork are indeed essential in any band, and it's great that you appreciate the subtleties of the pocket. Keep jamming and grooving! 🙌🏻🧡🔥

[@BruceRichardsonMusic]

The Scott body-double illusion is insane, hahahaha. And I can't believe you brought up Matt Chamberlain. I was thinking about him when you were having the discussion about the "tendency." Matt Chamberlain has had that magic feel since he was a kid at NTSU. Everything felt magic when he played. It wasn't anything that you could put your finger on. I called it the Matt Chamberlain Elasto-Groove. It was definitely a thing. I remember him pecking out a groove on that first Alesis drum machine, and he could make a one-sample drum machine groove the same way with that particular timing of his.

[@ianmackenzie686]

Ian rocks! Great addition.

[@RTOutdoors]

Absolutely love Ian and Steve. I learn something every time.

[@implayingsomebass4753]

Two powerhouses in one video, unreal! Golden stuff you guys are putting out here. CLASS IS IN SESSION!

[@biggerthanbliss5841]

I really appreciate the insight from this video. I've tried explaining to some of my own bass students what it means to play behind the beat and this gives me a much clearer way of describing that. Thanks!

[@ewetoo]

Also, playing *through* the string with finger technique helps you "play behind" much better I find. Also great to hear a drummer talk about this, few drummers do and us bassists really want the conversation.

[@TheMemo659]

I have a VERY heavy hand. I play through the string to say the least. Have, personally, found my heavy handed style makes it sound like shit when im even slightly behind the beat. A gentle touch makes the bass note swell, a heavy hand is near percussive. I have found I need to push the beat, if anything, to make sure my strikes do not create a jarring double percussive effect. So, with all due respect, I would disagree. A gentle touch lends itself much better to playing behind the beat imo and ime. And yea, The comment in the above vid IS spot on. I do NOT follow my drummers, I drive them. Have not, until this vid, really considered that might be obnoxious as hell to them. None have yet complained, but it is very subtle so they may not even be aware I'm doing it.

[@seankent1807]

Yeeeessss, this is great!! Once again: Ian Martin Allison for the WIN!! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[@jamespeters3507]

Im a member and I watched this course. I loved it. When I was done I texted a drummer friend of mine. The next week we sat down with a beer and watched it together. Really great stuff! Also we want more Ian!

[@IanMartinAllison]

Cheers James!

[@abath07]

I like how Ron Carter jazz walks ahead of the drummers.

[@747lch]

This drummer explained this so well!

[@deanroddey2881]

I always think about D'Angelo's "It Ain't Easy". That's like the greasiest, nastiest use of that sort of drunk late-groove feel to me. On the smacking thing, if the bass and drums are well segregated into their own frequency spaces well, having the drums and bass being right on top of each other is an incredibly powerful and punchy thing. I love the kick and drum being super-tight and sounding like one instrument in a way.

[@RonSmith472]

Playing behind is best played when the groove is locked in. Most heard in R&B, as the drummer and bass player begin to add space between their notes playing around the groove.

[@nicks.8003]

Your gut is correct. That’s why when producers were able to (with hardware) they started hating the bass to the kick drum. The bass note only sounded once the drummer “triggered” the gate. Cool video!

[@MikeNevill3]

I'm so glad I watched this.. thank you all

[@json64]

Hi. About a decade ago, I was in a band that used to get the listeners into a frenzy during live gigs. Me and the drummer (who was a major in composing at musical college) analyzed that the deal was him trying to play as "early" as possible, without "speeding up" and my job, as the bassist, was to try to beat him constantly. That´s basically the opposite of what You´re demonstrating in this video, but it worked very well (as it did for the Police). Greeting from Sweden!

[@stimpsonjcat26]

I think it was more likely the music that got people going rather than the timing. A lot of punk bands could barely play and could barely keep time yet the crowds went crazy.

[@juanbcn83]

Minute 7:30 is pure gold. Is the perfect example for get timing of a lot of blues songs. For me there are a perfect example: Freddie King - Same old blues. If you pay attention the bass and the kick drum sounds like Ian are saying. Masterclass

[@gimmeagig]

Great lesson. These guys are wonderful teachers

[@TeeCeeBee]

This is great! Ive been waiting for someone to talk about this phenomenon. There are so many lessons about notes, modes and patterns, but not much about feel. Thanks for a great lesson.

[@ciarancosgrave]

A perfect example being the bass on "If You Want Me To Stay" by Sly And The Family Stone

[@halcyo]

Not necessarily bass, but I’m fascinated with rhythm and feel, and I’ve been sort of studying a lot of these young rappers nowadays (I know I know just hear me out), and there’s something fascinating about the way they seem to flow VERY AHEAD of the beat. At first it seemed so amateur- like they didn’t have good flow- but I’m starting to appreciate that it’s for effect. It gives the track a fun, live, energetic motion. It makes the beat feel so janky in a cool funky way.

[@thumbthump]

One of the top 2 or 3 teaching vids you've put out, Scott! Thanks to these guys.

[@paulpaul00]

One of the best Lessons at SBL!

[@lighterwaves5659]

Greatest rhythm lesson on youtube

[@ybab-j]

as someone who learns by example, this is one of the best videos i've ever seen. thank you thank you

[@wyrlismike]

Very cool, would like this to be a regular series!

[@Cliffswanson]

I love this presentation! I've tried, unsuccessfully, to explain playing behind the beat to a few non-musician friends and generally gotten a blank stare in response. Now I'm going to send a couple of them a link to this video and see what happens :-). Thanks for this.

[@samcloake2421]

Absolutely sick! Things I’ve always wondered about but never had guts to broach or, coming from my amateur background, heard anyone else talk about. At all, never mind at this level. Cheers guys!

[@LixinQin]

that smacking bass example actually sounds pretty good to me, just a different feel than the slightly behind the beat Pino Palladino groove, I wouldn’t say it’s worse or better.

[@mattwarner2447]

Ian Allison single handedly making Antigua cool again.

[@IanMartinAllison]

Antigua 4EVERR

[@Crushin123]

Ian has a great personality on camera, as if he is a buddy hanging out. Great playing here too guys. Excellent video.

[@jakekeys88music]

Such a great lesson! Yes, the key is to really get dead on first and then grow from there. I love the way these two keep the conversation going, as it's not so much a lecture as it is a sharing of ideas from their perspectives and as if they were involving us as viewers in their discussion. No talking down to or dumbing it down for anyone either...it's purely accessible.

[@OriginalRaveParty]

How awesome is this knowledge

[@gssong7111]

Plucking hand finger length, strength, callus, nail length, technique, etc, all play into the beginning beat you play. Often overlooked, but how your fingers hit the string is as important as anything with your fretting hand.

[@captbuscemi]

Just brilliant! These two are among the best tutors on the SBL roster, I hope they do a heap more of these videos. Yes, and the Scott D/Ian A Inception thing is a freak-out, but I love it!

[@jonpeterson7133]

First saw Steve (drums) 17 years ago…I knew he’d be an all star American drummer…so good

[@tomd7504]

Have to agree and add weight to the other comments: great format, great easy-to-understand and helpful tips, and also simply enjoyed the conversation. Well done and thanks!

[@BaronVonQuiply]

When I was a teenager, I read a guitar magazine interview where the interviewee was talking about how they like the bass Behind The Beat. I spent years wondering if he meant behind as in after, or supporting, but my first interpretation was a timing difference. I'm not sure if I ever play behind the beat, but I do sometimes play in a sort of back-time where I'll call attention to a melody or line by not falling on the beat. I guess that would be behind. This makes me think of BBE Sonic Maximizers and how they offset the mids by a bit to make them more audible among the bass frequencies.

[@artkulak9802]

I like the way a blues drummer I used to play with here in Chicago described it. He called it a "flat tire". You've got to get that "flat tire" feel.

[@Stewart_John]

7:31 was pretty interesting idea

[@420Bassist]

That "race to the bottom" actually sounds really cool

[@WTHFX]

Very cool discussion. Nice vid

[@carmelofernandez9020]

Fantastic. Thanks a lot for this...

[@Nugmania1]

Wish I was there Ian, this something that I have worked on since age 15, it takes a lot of 8 note runs to get comfy with it. It comes in handy, when you are establishing feel and groove. If you have a drummer that is the full package, you can stay in the centre and he’ll do all the tasties

[@ryancasey1287]

I'm really enjoying these SBL videos of Ian teaching some cool tips and making cool videos on albums and basses. He's such a great guy and I hope to keep seeing more of these kinds of videos. Keep 'em coming👍

[@Wintermute136]

I’ve always wondered about the behind the beat. It struck me that if Bonham was behind then Jimmy had to be leading. I always got the impression that why Zep sounded so funky. Bonham sat comfortably in Jimmy’s wake and played off him.

[@Jedmanuel91]

The best complement a bass player could receive is, “man, you were in the pocket!”

[@pd4165]

No it isn't.

[@soopahsoopah]

The best complement a bass player could receive is a drummer. The best *compliment* bass player could receive is "hey you have nice hair"

[@blonkski_2525]

@@soopahsoopah feel pretty sad for scott then : (

[@HowToBass]

This was super interesting!

[@Stewart_John]

Yeah

[@jollkki4317]

Beautifully explained! Very clear demonstration.

[@SaintNine]

I'm reality interested in this as a drummer. This is what creates feel, although not just behind, but ahead and dead on too. I put one of what I think is the best rock grooves I ever played through Reason's loop slicing thing, Dr Rex, and found that two of my BD beats were hugely beginner the beat. It gave those beats a lot of weight and gave the song its groove. Learning to play reggae taught me more than anything else about placement, because it does a mix of all of them. In my earlier days, in a jazz rock band, I played ahead a lot. The only trouble was that everyone was trying to catch up and the songs invariably sped up. The advice you give here, to aim for on the beat and you'll find your groove, is spot on. It's the hardest thing to analyse and teach and it's where music notation falls down, I think it comes naturally once you've got enough precision. On another subject altogether and besides I couldn't find anywhere appropriate to put it, I never hear Alphonso Johnson mentioned. I've always admired him, particularly on Black Market by Weather Report. Am I alone in that our have I just missed the posts where he did get mentioned? Anyway, thanks, as always, for an entertaining and informative video.

[@JimRobinson-colors]

Some of the best drummers in the world will be all over the spetrum when they do fills - as a bass player those times were the times to hold a whole not rather than muddle it up with something that is obvious rhythm or tempo. Some of the best drummers I have ever played with- if yu put a metronome on the fills, they can sound terrible. But in the mix , can make the song.

[@luserdroog]

This is brilliant! Not only great insight and analysis, but practical exercises for bass and drums to try together. Definitely going to try some of this stuff next time I'm with a drummer to quickly develop some shared vocabulary.

[@danilojelovac7535]

More Ian, please!

[@iloveanonymity493]

THANK YOU. I finally understand playing in the pocket.

[@nathanwahl9224]

Pretty cool. What shocked me as I listened is how much our drummer and I do vary it during different songs. He keeps the tempo going very well when I'm behind, so maybe we just get it, or maybe he doesn't trust me! Never really thought about it for a while, but another drummer friend kinda taught me about it a long time ago. Man, he and I were tight. But it definitely shows up. Yeah, it feels good, we both get a smile going. And our guitar player knows it, and smiles too! Now I know why a little better! I'm going to have to share this one with our drummer! Thanky kindly!

[@MiLara]

Geddy Lee’s playing clutter the drums and take away from syncopation... wow 😳 never heard that one before. He weaves syncopated melodies all over his bass playing while he singing. Geddy deserves some proper respect.. I enjoyed Ian’s lesson but that comment floored me

[@blueplateradio2]

Great job, very informative, fun, enlightening and thought provoking. More please!

[@johannecousineau4343]

As usual Ian, I really enjoy what you have to say and how you teach! Nice to hear Steve as well!

[@BryanRoyes]

I loved everything about this conversation

[@ULUnLoco]

not a bass player, but was a good discussion as a drummer. love that shit

[@mishterpreshident]

Great topic! So many vids focus on "how to play your instrument" with not enough focus on "how to play together," which is a skill of its own.

[@geoffknot]

great chat and demo!

[@cormacmccoy1]

That production idea is a GREAT way of thinking of playing behind and hearing it

[@Manakel77]

This is a content for the 0.01% of the viewers, but it's what makes the 0.01% musicians standing out from the crown. Thank you, Ian and Steve.

[@amadeuskohar8699]

Lovin' the Antigua, keep 'em funky

[@galupa518]

Best explanation of pocket in this vid.

[@fishcadet]

This is so incredibly valuable.

[@SuperBenzN]

A great one. Watching it just coming from a band rehearsal worried about my precision. Feels better now

[@sullysullster8217]

Great topic. Maybe do a part two with a grid example where it is visually showing the notes and where its laying in reference to a click. Where the snare is landing and where the bass notes fall in relation to bass drum, snare, hi hat etc. I don't think anyone has done that yet.

[@basbakker]

Very good conversation! Thx

[@Danyael850]

That's dope, would like more lessons like that!

[@Paul_Hinton]

Brilliant!

[@CallSignJammer]

That jazz bas though.. 🔥

[@grizelda4526]

Great lesson. Thank you!

[@groovedodger]

I miss playing live with a real drummer : ( thanks great tips about letting the resonance of the drums come through. Thanks Scott and Happy New Year.

[@crimfan]

100%. The drummer I was playing with and I were able to lock in really well and had been growing even tighter as a rhythm section. We played a bit in the back yard with hand percussion and an acoustic bass but it's not the same as with a kit and bass amp.

[@BaronVonQuiply]

I'm a guitarist, and my drummer locks in with my guitar the way most drums lock in with bass. It's great, I'll do a little accent and he'll do the counterpart on the drums as if he's playing guitar through the drum sticks. All my recordings are with midi drums though so there's less drum dynamics, but I found that I can imply dynamics by changing up the guitar (eg, I have one song that drops down and gets quiet, then builds up loud again. The drums never change but they sound like they're getting more aggressive over time due to the guitars).