How to Record your Marshall Half Stack according to PHYSICS! 🤓

[@weevilsnitz]

I like this because it's not necessarily a "room" sound but it is more of an accurate representation of what the entire cabinet, potentially with different speakers installed, sounds as a whole if you were standing in front of it.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks!

[@davidbabington7225]

This is excellent!! As a guitarist who owns a studio, I know how challenging it is to get an honest representation of what our ears hear.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks David! It is indeed so much more difficult than most assume

[@metalinsights9664]

Amen!

[@thebenefactor6744]

I think the best lesson of this video is to show you the range of tones via all the positions. Because I liked and understood the " 46 cm straight on" formula ( thanks especially, Johann, for distilling that part to my brain), BUT, I also really liked, and could think of a use for, that " jammed right up against the cab at a steep 45° angle" tone, too. It's so subjective when you start thinking how it would sound in a mix. I feel the paralysis of over choice setting in.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks, yeah obsessive studies like this should be kept separate from recording and playing or it risks reducing one’s resolve to produce music

[@psychorock83]

Amazing Joan I have not followed you for roughly 2monthas, and here I see you with this sound engineering video on how get the best representation of a guitar cab sound, keeping the phase problems as little as possible.I like the direction of your channel, i ve just started studying as a recording engineer.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Glad to hear that! The greatest job in the world

[@picksalot1]

Thanks Johan for taking the time and putting in the effort to actually test the method. Very interesting results.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks glad to hear that!

[@jcoulter43]

The Professor of Tone says class is in session! Loved your explanation. Great tones as always. God bless and rock on 👍😎🎸

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks J! 😃 Glad to hear it! 🎸👍

[@mgalbu]

Awesome video Johan! As usual you give us all the possible scenarios. I do the exercise of moving around the microphones every time I record a video and almost always end up in the position where I started :) This video is a great point of reference that could save many of us hours of experimenting.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks Max, that’s great to hear!

[@JordanSeal]

Awesome demonstration. I remember someone (maybe Steve Albini?) explaining that close mic placement, as a technique, came primarily from live sound applications, where it resolves issues (like bleed from a drum kit that's mere feet away) that aren't present in most studios. Yet people used it in studios because it was familiar. But to paraphrase a former Supreme Court justice, "The rule follows where reason leads, and where reason stops, there stops the rule." Why use close placement if you don't *need* it?

[@leiferickson3183]

I agree! (and my heart still aches for Steve). I was talking with someone from work. I said I like backing the mics off of the cab because it sounds more natural to me, and that I like a little difuse room mic added to the mix. He said that you must close mic "to get the real sound of the guitar" and that you can always stick a digital reverb on the guitar after. You know, I have never heard a close miced guitar cab that sounded like any amplifier I have played before. I will admit that I am a pretty lazy recordist (Throw up some mics and listen a bit and then record while the idea is still fresh) and some of my friends wow me with the sound of their recorded music.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks Jordan! Yeah many things are taken for granted without actually connecting it to first principles

[@metalinsights9664]

@@leiferickson3183 Same here. I have tried an SM57 on a V30 in every conceivable position and never got something I was fully satisfied with. I have learned to embrace the closed-miked sound for what it is, and it can be a pretty cool sound if you can get it to sound scooped in the midrange and round in the top end, which is not a great sound, but that is what it has to be in order to work as close-miked sound. Iron Maiden's Live After Death is a good example of that kind of small but precise and smooth kind of close-miked sound. My ideal reference, the one where the guitars sound absolutely perfect, with some good but very controlled low end, an excellent midrange, and just a touch of bite in the highs, is Maiden's Piece of Mind album. That will forever be my ideal, but I have no idea how to get guitars to sound that good and natural. For close-miking a V30 with an SM57, I think the cap-edge position on-axis, though very fizzy, is best, as otherwise you lose the important high end information. It's a compromise, but it works for what it is. It kind of sounds like a distortion pedal straight into the desk, but that's I think what the sound of its best representation.

[@bartnettle]

Totally agree with you, close miking is fine for live purposes but not in isolated recording. The idea is to open up the top end with a post EQ in a mix by getting the mic in the flatest sounding position. Close miking almost always requires cuts and is a dampening effect with muddy low end,. mic capsule resonances and more cone cry or grill cloth flap... Well Done Video showing exactly why capturing the whole sound from the cab is best done at a distance! Well Done and thank you for the hard work. To answer your question;; the room is the culprit, large room or fewer speakers. It could also be the height of mic to the floor and the distance; I'd try lowering the mic or raising the cab. Generally a twin cab half open at the back works well in. I preferred your single speaker tones the best

[@victorbeebe8372]

Aloha Johan! Mahalo for the hard work and you being generous to share you information.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Aloha Victor! Glad to hear it! And happy election day tomorrow!

[@janalex12]

It’s nice to see someone like Johan, who has done this for ages still chasing the best recorded tone. I also have trouble making close mics Blend naturally in the mix. It’s a very modern sound. I would love to see a comparison between the multi speaker technique with and without EQ and the close mic in the mix and see how it fares

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks! Yeah I think the drums need to be primarily close miked too for the close miked guitar to work in the mix and as you say that makes for a much more modern vibe

[@janalex12]

Yes close miced and heavily compressed which is the opposite of say Zeppelin or Hendrix. We know from an interview that Parsons used something similar to your technique with a u87 to do dark side. No compression on drums

[@matzer8846]

We all do love Phasers (well ... i do BUT phase issues not so much Great learning vid4allofus addressing this - often neglected - theme ... thanks a lot

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks, glad to hear it! 😃

[@DMSProduktions]

At LAST! Some REAL engineering principles! Will catch the replay! 4am prem is a bit too late for me! \m/

[@JohanSegeborn]

Glad to hear it! Looking forward to your comments

[@DMSProduktions]

@@JohanSegeborn It was VERY interesting!

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks man!

[@leiferickson3183]

Awesome test! It was great to hear all of these methods side by side. Maybe get those cabs off the floor. With the 4x12 there are many different length paths for sound to bounce off the floor before hitting the mike, and without having done the calculations, I would hazard a guess that those cancelations might be reaching down into the low end. You Rock Johan!

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks Leif!

[@lenndjevelhaugen1523]

This video is PURE GOLD, thanks Guru! learning a lot with your super Knowledge 🙌

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks my friend, glad to hear that!

[@NateThunder]

Johan. These vids are always so good. Thank you sir!

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks Nate! Glad to hear that!

[@NateThunder]

@ What year is your 70s custom?

[@michaelplaysbass]

Science is awesome! Nice work, Johan. Very interesting test you performed here. Thanks!

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks Michael! Glad you like it!

[@ElmoSyr]

This is a great back to basics approach. I really like these types of videos. Would love to hear this farther micing with a condenser like your 47 clone. Thanks as always Johan!

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks Elmo! That will be coming up soon

[@mattfleming2287]

Thank you! This is real knowledge every guitarist should know.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks Matt, glad to hear it!

[@siegfriedwashburn3484]

Very interesting, Johan! I had some problems with my connection, but still watching. See you!) S. Have a nice weekend!

[@JohanSegeborn]

Glad you made it to the premiere. Have a great weekend!

[@patrickfouhy9102]

This is a cool concept, I think a few things that need to be considered that I didn't hear you talk about is the microphone's pickup pattern/angle, the speaker's throw angle, reflections off the floor, and the proximity effect of the mic. The SM57 is not an ideal distance mic, especially if you're looking to capture a nice low end. A vast majority of it's low end in recording is due to it's proximity effect, and how hyped it's low end gets at close distances. Once you have about 6" distance from your sound source, then it's low end will roll off dramatically, and it's upper mid range fizz will seem accented. Also the angle at witch the SM57 picks up sound, once you're back far enough (on the 2x12) you are effectively putting a mic on the floor as well, and the speakers are also projecting sound into the floor, and those reflections are going to be picked up and that's basically unavoidable phase cancellation. It looks like you have a soft floor so its probably not too bad in your set up. Personally, if you wanted to stay with a dynamic mic, I'd go with something that's hyper or super cardioid to narrow down it's forward pickup pattern. I think that could help lower the phase issues, and possibly avoid the reflections off the floor. Other option could be a figure 8 patter, on a naturally wam sounding mic like a ribbon mic. I have actually done this exact concept on an Orange 2x12 with a Royer R10 and it sounded great once I got the distance down. Omni directional mic would also be great in this setting, I think that would capture the more "natural" sound honestly. Omni directional in the center of a 4x12 is a great sound, and (to me) is the closest sounding to be "in the room' with the cab.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks, great feedback. I actually lifted up the cab on top of a straight cab today and recorded it with 8 different mics and the Hypercardioid ribbon M160 was my favourite. I tried all patterns on a C414 as well and Omni was indeed very natural sounding and my favourite for that mic. SM57 held up well against the other mics but does indeed lacks some beef. Will post that soon. Cheers

[@ianorourke6320]

Excellent brother. This was cool to experience

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks brother!

[@jerrylardieri8716]

Great video and analysis as always! Steve Albini talks about something along these lines in his video on recording guitar cabinets, where he's more of a proponent of pulling the mic back rather than having it right up on the cabinet. As far as getting more low end, what about a mic on the back of the cabinet with the phase inverted directly inline with the front mic? Maybe if you blend some of that, you'll get the low end rumble?

[@eddieholmes3236]

Great video Johan! Science the shit out of it!

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks Eddie! 😆🤘

[@vonanderssonnoisesystem]

Great work with this video! 👍 I think a key to miking at a distance and still maintain the low end is to use a different mic than the SM57. It has a very steep low end roll off as it’s really intended to be used at extremely close distances. I’d suggest going with a good ribbon mic, a good and inexpensive one is the Nohype Audio LRM-2B. It’s relatively neutral at the top end but has a huge low end lift even at 1 m from the sound source. But it’s easier to tame that with an EQ than to add low end where there is none in the first place (the SM57 distance recordings). Cheers from Stockholm!

[@ludvigbydal7812]

Hey Johan excellent video and explanation. Really important to know how to place the mics, it makes a real difference to enhance the tone for recording. Thanks so much. Long Live Rock ! 🎸

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks Ludvig! Long live rock!

[@whyceeguy]

This is a very interesting video. My suggestion would be to get the speaker of the ground so that it is not reflecting off a hard surface so soon. Also miking into the reflection (boundary effect) can enhance the low end, There were definitely some of those "in between" placements that actually sounded like they would sit in the mix pretty good on rhythm parts.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks, yeah I’m gonna try that to see how much the tone can be cleaned up and focused

[@yikelu]

Have a some thoughts on this: 1. Melda MAutoAlign does a very good job of automatic phase alignment on multi mic setups. This helps a lot because you can choose multi-mics for their individual sounds rather than having to be locked into phase coherence. 2. Creative Sound Lab does have an example of what you're doing here in a paid course. You can use the distance to tweak the high/lows mix with better resolution. 3. I personally prefer using ribbons on guitar cab. Very user friendly, get them close to the speaker center, then pull them back a bit to taste to tweak the low end. Closest and easiest I've gotten to amp in the room sound. Even cheap ribbons do very well.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks I’m gonna try that application

[@Simto]

Very cool video. Queens of the Stone Age used that technique with a 4x12 on the Songs for the Deaf album. It sounds great, but I reckon it's quite room dependent too. My music room is a small basement room with only hard surfaces... so anything but close mic'ing sadly sounds horrible hehe. I'm still going to try it out though. Maybe a ribbon mic would do well with this technique?

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks! Yeah the room becomes really important the further out one goes.

[@jean-philippemorin1176]

Interesting experiment. Thanks for sharing.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks Jean-Philippe!

[@prinsezkaffeehexen8196]

Supposedly Alan Parsons was at leat 18 inches away from Gilmour's amp for recording the guitars of Darkside, also Eric Valentine on QOTSA's Songs for the dead!

[@JohanSegeborn]

Interesting, both great tones

[@GCKelloch]

Very cool. I agree that the distances you calculated to be the least phasey sound best. However, when comparing to close micing at an angle, the mic diaphragm should remain aligned with the center of the dust cap regardless of the mic angle. At a certain angle right up to the speaker cloth to ~1" away, the distance from each part of the speaker it's aimed at will be very close to equal. This idea comes from how the sound engineer that recorded Van Halen's first album at Sun Studio set the angled sm57 on Eddie's JBL D120.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks, actually calculation gave the closest possible distance where the high end was loud enough for a balanced sound. The low phase cancellation was just luck and would otherwise require separate tweaking of the position I seldomly use the close miking you suggest, but I will try that one too. You mean that the diaphragm always aims at the dust cap with the dust cap as rotational center for the mic rotations right?

[@GCKelloch]

@@JohanSegeborn I mean the head of the mic remains at the center of the dust cap. The mic should then be pointed right at the edge of the cap at a distance so the cone and cap are equal distances from it. That's the idea, anyway.

[@inmemoryofin]

Johan you might like close micing but mixing in a phase reversed mic recorded at the BACK of the cab. Cool video

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks! I have seen others get great results that way but I still haven’t done that technique justice

[@socalwill9876]

Interesting that your post EQing gives the speakers a bit of V30 flavor. I've only ever done mic placement in the Line6 Helix system, but I've found that the SM57 alone is pretty limited with low-end capture, you have to pair it with a ribbon mic and then turn down the loud/bright SM57 to get a fuller picture. Great work, keep it coming 🔊👍

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks, glad to hear it! The post EQ was actually a more moderate version of EQ matching to Aces solo guitar on Deuce on the Alive! Album.

[@crflores76]

Great video…. I prefer the angled mic over the distance!!! But finally the trick is to obtain the same sound of the cabinet… there’s no rules, just trial and error…

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks! Yeah rules are meant to be broken especially in Rocknroll!

[@Cantabilex]

Have you ever tested amps at full volume to see wich one reaches the highest DB? Using a proper DB-meter ofcourse. Marshall jcm800/900/2000 Hiwatt dr103/201 Vox ac30 Orange etc... Would be really usefull (for me personally) if this test was done using mostly the same cabinet when possible. A Marshall 1960's for example. It could also demonstrate the small/big differance between a 30-50-100-200watt amp in volume. Thank's for your amazing contribution within the community.

[@sitesta3748]

I tried a cheap piezo pick up mounted between the soundpole and rearwall to pick up the low end. That gets very "woody" but mixed with an mic it works quiet good.

[@101silencio]

Hi Johan! Thanks for the video! I think It could be a good idea to do this same experiment with a different polar pattern microphone such as a omnidirectional, or figure 8 polar pattern mic. Cheers!

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks! I started that today actually and I expected wide cardioid and Omni to start sound brighter closer to the cab due to the wider pickup pattern but they actually were darker since there is so much low end all over 180 degrees. I will post the video soon! Cheers

[@josephrasbold2180]

I really love how this sounds. I've always gravitated to amps mic'd from a distance like this in a studio setting over close micing. What would the math be for a 4x10? Would love a super nerdy video explaining the math behind the formula's used to figure this out.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks! Glad to hear it. You can use this calculator for the 4x10. Base length is the distance between two speakers. 4 sides. You’ll have to iteratively try different heights until you get an edge angle of around 22.5 degrees though www.1728.org/volpyrmd.htm

[@ferranmelero7727]

Terrific vid Very useful info

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks Ferran! Glad to hear that

[@joelmahan]

Context is everything-I think about the track and what other overdubs and parts are going to be recorded and hedge my bets accordingly lol😎

[@JohanSegeborn]

Yeah obsessive investigations like this should indeed be kept separate from any actual tracking of a song 😆

[@benjaminluscombe7199]

Great video, thanks so much for doing this. Are your distances measured from the grill?

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks Benjamin! Yes I measured from the grill

[@javier.albarado]

I recommend you the Royer 121 or similar to capture the lows and all the other frecuencies also in a well balanced way. My humble 0,5 cents. Thanks for all that you do.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks Javier I’m gonna try it with another ribbon M160 right now actually

[@inmemoryofin]

Johan there’s a great book I think you would LOVE called Mixing with Your Mind by Michael Stavrou. He describes mic selection as looking for mic attributes that are OPPOSITE of the thing you’re trying to record. For instance if you’re recording a very hard sounding, strident amp you’d go for a softer mic like maybe a ribbon. And if it were a soft mellow amp you might use yeah something like a 57 or 421 to capture it. If the amp were lacking in detail then a large diaphragm condenser. If the amp was scooped then you’d use a mic supplying strong midrange detail etc For me personally multiple mics is the way to go for realism. I wonder if some of the realism you like about Kiss tones from the live albums is in part from bleed (if there was really bleed there at all, I guess the actual live-ness of those recordings is in question). But yeah when I’ve recorded bands live in the studio, the bleed often brings tons of realism.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks! That’s great feedback I’m gonna get that book. And the I think the bleed did indeed function as unintended room mics at many great albums

[@timonbutcherman]

Дмитрий Юрич, необычно видеть Вас в таком амплуа!

[@Timbiscuit12]

I wonder if trying some sound baffling on the outside of the front of the cab would help focus the low-end. When I say baffling, I mean essentially like putting an open box of some sound-reflective or even sound-absorbing barriers outside of the front of the cab. Maybe you could do it with either a 2x12 or a 4x12. Maybe a box shape would work for the baffling, or maybe just baffling on two opposing sides at a time. I’m sure you’d have varying results with vary lengths of baffling but that’s one of the only things I could think of.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Yeah often physical modifications of the room and the proximity of the mic is the way to go. Bruce Swedien was great at that

[@metalinsights9664]

Thank you for acknowledging the drawbacks of close-miking. I have never been able to capture a good close-miked sound that didn't suffer from excessive low end, even with extreme EQ tweaking on the amp. I to this day wonder how the rest of the producing world in the heavy rock and metal world gets by with standard close-miking. To me, close-miked sounds are not only boomy and overly dynamic in the low end, but also fizzy and spiky in the high end, where the midrange, the most important part of the tone, gets buried.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks! Yeah since most operate in rooms where the reflections sound bad they wanna keep the mics close to the cab. It’s indeed demoralising to record sounds that are so much worse than how they’re perceived in the room.

[@metalinsights9664]

@@JohanSegeborn Indeed. While the spiky and fizzy top end is definitely a problem with properly close-miked cabs, the volatile low end is far more problematic, not only because its dynamics cloud the rest of the mix, but also because an overly dynamic low end can blow speakers. I think I must have gone through two sets of laptop speakers after blowing them by playing my recorded tracks through them. I have been able to tame the low end by rolling off the bass on the amp either completely or almost completely, but that is really hard to dial in just right, as there is always either too much bass, or too little. Volume helps, as it results in power tube compression, which helps control the low end. A TS9 can also be very helpful, as it cleans up the low end, boosts the mids, and introduces some nice compression in the low end. But, ultimately, it is all a compromise and sounds nothing like you the meaty, midrange-thick guitars you can hear on a classic Maiden or Kiss album.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Yeah, many devices aren’t build to handle that much bass. I’ve blown my MacBook Pro speakers too

[@Bloor005]

I've used the 18" kind of distance with a k67x on a 2x12 a few times. I've also done it with a WA-251 and WA19 but further back (maybe 3 feet). I angled the cab into the corner and placed carpet down the sides of the cab to absorb some of the reflections. The gap at the back (not an equilateral triangle but offset) seems to reinforce the bass just right to my ears.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Very cool idea! I’m gonna try that!

[@Bloor005]

@@JohanSegeborn This is with a closed back 2x12 too. I think the bass is still getting trough enough for it to punch through. The carpet is to stop phase and reflection issues from the walls. It seems to stop frequencies above 800hz-1khz. I try to have a gap between the carpet and wall too by about an inch. I think I leant it on old laundry stands. The mics I chose because they have an extended range compared to the 57s, and wider cardioid than them too. Of course you can put the 251 into fig8 too (I think The Beatles engineers did this with 47s in fig8 on Macca's bass amp if one photo is to be beieved).

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks great info

[@curtisburns]

In my opinion large diaphragm condensers are better suited to miking from a distance than dynamic microphones. I’d be interested to hear this same experiment with something like a U87.

[@JohanSegeborn]

I will compare a bunch of mics and post it soon

[@joelmahan]

Nice-Ipersonally I usually just have someone move the mic around while I’m in the control room until it sounds right to me😎

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks Joel! Yeah nothing beats a control room. Here trial and error is way too common

[@samuelgabriel4646]

Have you also tried to put the 4x12 on a different spot in your room? I feel like roommodes could have a signifficant impact on the actual low end if you have standing waves at 25". Btw. Thanks for this video, its super usefull to hear and see the different micing positions.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks Samuel! That’s a good point. I’m gonna try a couple of positions in the room and compare

[@OSpetze]

Regarding what you said about the straight cab at the end, try 4 completely different speakers, not 4 identical, i think the sound could be really big

[@hearpalhere]

Really enjoyable experiment, thank you for sharing your results. I'm no expert but wonder if you shouldn't try a less directional mic than the SM57. I've only personally ever mic'd my guitar cab with a SM57 about 6 inches off the grill cloth and pointed to the first rib as you did. I sometimes added a room mic, a condenser mic (AKG C1000S) about 3-5 feet away just pointed in the direction of the cab.

[@121212Guitars]

Albini would be proud

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks that’s very kind of you

[@Timbiscuit12]

Thanks for making this video! Really really cool. I always planned when making an album to use close mics and room mics (which almost everyone does anyways), but this is really cool. And for what it’s worth, I thought the 60 cm 4x12 recording still sounded great, and before you said something, I wouldn’t have noticed a lack of low-end without having been in the room to hear the difference. But I understand why you want to keep exploring this problem. Do you think that this technique would still sound good mixed with further room mics?

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks! Yeah I think it does. Gonna include that in some future video.

[@Freddekaddeth]

Good work

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks!

[@alvagoldbook2]

Interesting technique. I’ve often done something like this with condensers, since they’re not so sensitive with proximity. I do weird mic’ing techniques. I never got around to getting a ribbon mic, so I just put 4-5 dynamic mics on a 4x12. Maybe an inch or two off the grill cloth. Move them around for the best sound, and then get rid of the two worst sounding mics. I usually end up blending a SM57, Shure Beta 52 or SM7, and a Sennheiser e609. Where one mic’s frequency response fails, another pics up the slack, and you end up getting very full frequency response. Just watch your phase, keep distance from the cabinet the same and you’re good. Blend the levels to get a full and balanced tone.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks, I thought the proximity effect was due to the directionality of the mics and that true Omnis were less sensitive to it

[@n0nyabznss]

I would use the 57 on the grille and then get a condenser room mic and one at 25” away. All three of those tracks should allow you to blend a nice representation

[@JohanSegeborn]

How do you blend a mic at the grill with a mic at 25”? I always get at tinny phasey sound then even when both are Omni

[@Keplerf-vn2ld]

I love how much you care about all these things. very passionate unfortunately I have never heard of anyone micing a 4x12 in the middle like that sorry

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks, I think David Gilmour did that at some point

[@chexi]

17:55 realy good sound

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks glad to hear it!

[@EL34Quartett]

I assume you have compensated for the slight slant in the straight cab. If not, this might be source for issues, if you don't adjust the height of the mic while changing the distance of the mic stand.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Ah! Thanks that could be the reason!!

[@EL34Quartett]

​@@JohanSegebornjust to make testing quicker, you could test tilting the box forward a bit.

[@c.noahbaoas6816]

Man now I wanna experiment with room mix IRs

[@JohanSegeborn]

Glad to hear it!

[@panosskentzos]

This is the right thinking but with the wrong mic IMO, dynamic mics and especially 57s are not good with distance, I have been recording with distant mics on my studio for years and to me the best mics for that job are Ribbon mics, especially with 2" ribbons for more focused polar pattern and low end representation (although the 57 surprised me on some positions in this video). Take even the cheapest ribbon mic, place it 15-20" from the center of a speaker and you're golden, at least in my experience. Want more treble? Place it a bit closer. Want more mids? Place it further. Want more bass? No you don't. Thank you for the video, great food for thought!

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks! I’m gonna try it with a bunch of mics today and include a Beyer M160

[@UdiKoomran]

I tend to use a attenuator Then place the close mic by moving around finding the spot with my ear and place a Coles 4038 Then move away and try to find a pleasing spot that is more distant with a rounder more “balanced” sound Then capture the 2 mics in my daw and use a time align tool to synchronise them so they are 100% in phase Then mix to taste I find this the best of both words Close proximity transients and punch with a slight boost of low and high combined with a rounder slower attack

[@UdiKoomran]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/mmi6p4ilr7upatEsi=IHBmQ4opfHHhrHNS

[@JohanSegeborn]

Hi, how do you do the time alignment? Can it save out phase tracks?

[@UdiKoomran]

@@JohanSegeborn I use Soundradix Auto Align

[@JimmyDevere]

Try browning out the amp. I get better tone with all my amps that way. I feel the lower volume not only gets rid of unpleasant distortion from the amp, but less air pushing from the speakers also seems to help reduce phase cancellation and reduce reflections.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Interesting, will try that!

[@JimmyDevere]

Also, I thought the some of best recorded tones you got were with the ‘67 black flag JMP 100 “Fender Killer” video from a few years back. I think you used a few different mixes/reverb but if I recall it was the a LDC mic close and LDC room. Sounded just like studio Hendrix.

[@JimmyDevere]

One more random thought, in the book British Recording Studios, most if not all of the recording engineers learned the trade from recording ensembles with room mics, much of it stereo. In an ensemble you are not close micing every instrument but using a stereo pair of condenser mics and mixing in a few close mics for specific instruments or sections of instruments, such as violins etc. Today I was listening to Band of Gypsies which I believe was Eddie Kramer, and that is exactly what I hear: the ensemble recorded from the stage (it’s already 90% mixed that way if the mics are placed well) and adding in close mics for the drums and close mics blended under the main distance mics for guitar/bass/vocals. The reduced bass for the guitar makes it sit better in the mix.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks Jimmy yeah that was the ADK Hamburg.

[@jaycee30865]

Johan be sure to see HISS - You Were Made To Feed Me | Official Meowsic Video. Perfect for you and your fave 70s act.

[@SeemoreDunkan]

Johan I love your videos!! Thanks for this one!!! So the stand is 46 cm from the grill, right?

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks! No the mic is 46 cm from the grill. I measured to the stand when I did the angled close miking. Cheers

[@SeemoreDunkan]

@@JohanSegeborn Thanks so much!! You're a gem!

[@GoDrex]

how much low end do you really want to get though? I think in a mix you're going to want to low cut the guitar a lot anyway so the mud of the low end doesn't compete with the bass and drums. I like the tone you got with the two by 12 experiment before the eq

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks! It’s not so much the amount of bass but rather the complexity of the low end I’m looking for

[@Monterno-uk1ky]

this guitar sound is so Ace Frehley/Paul Stanley, some hotter than hell, some rock n roll over s2

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks! Makes my day to hear that

[@chrisstevens4680]

This is a bit off topic, but just a thought on live use of a 4x12 and that ‘beammyness’ that happens when you stand directly in front of the cab, I have never seen anyone using an angled 4x12 on its side. This would spread the sound out somewhat. But if you really want good stage sound check out the KZbin videos from Barefaced Audio (…..disclaimer: I am just a punter and have nothing to do with them!)

[@JohanSegeborn]

Hi! I have actually often seen angled 4x12 on its side when compiling a full stack out of two slanted cabs.

[@iangenet29]

Great video, Johan. Question, as someone who does not own a 4X12 cabinet, what recordings most accurately capture the sound of a 4X12 in the room?

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks Ian! Thanks a great question. I think that the song She from Kiss Alive, not the studio version does a great job. The song Working man by Rush. Highway to Hell by AC/DC. Unchained by Van Halen.

[@metalinsights9664]

@@JohanSegeborn Check out also any isolated tracks from Maiden's Piece of Mind album. Guitar production perfection.

[@JohanSegeborn]

I will. I love that album. The Trooper is a masterpiece

[@mikeindel]

Id love to see if you can reproduce each sound using EQ with just a close mic

[@JohanSegeborn]

I actually tried that but didn’t include it in the video. I wasn’t happy with the results but they were good enough for a dense mix I think

[@em001868]

Very informative Johan. Would you say that the same placement and mic distance could work for a live mic'd setting as well?

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks! I think so, I’ve seen pictures of Kiss miking the cabs like this live in 75. There will be some leakage of course though

[@em001868]

⁠I use a Bluesbreaker combo live so I will try it at 18 inches between the speakers next show and let you know how it goes. 😊

[@MarkFromHawaii]

Jimmy Page: Distance = depth.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Yeah, Zeppelin always had a great sense of room on their tracks

[@jaysonlavie603]

Also I’m not sure if this method works conceptually. Isn’t the low end coming from the reflections of within the cabinet and not the speakers. I would think you would still get significant phase cancellation at least in the low end. Maybe it would work for the midrange and high end. Maybe you could record the mids and highs with this method, aggressively high pass filter and then combine a close mic with a low pass filter???

[@JohanSegeborn]

A lot of the low end of a 4x12 comes from the phenomenon of mutual coupling where frequencies under basically 500Hz is enhanced. All four speakers start acting as one in some sense. The reflections within the cab is acting through the speakers but I think that’s mainly undesirable for low end since most bass cabs are insulated inside to reduce boxieness. I thought of your last suggestion too. A true Omni mic can close mic low end without proximity effect, so that could maybe work. When I tried that with a MD21 which is true Omni I had no luck though.

[@jaysonlavie603]

@ Interesting. From watching both Jim Lills videos and yours, I’ve felt the cabinet itself and not the mutual coupling from the four speakers in the 4x12 is the primary contribution to the low end. Maybe this method would work better with the Peluso in your flat ( even with attenuator). IMO this is the best sounding room in all your videos. Also would be interesting to see in a totally acoustically treated room. What about close miking each speaker with high pass filter to compensate for proximity effect? Also AEA has “near field” ribbons with built high pass filters matched to the mics proximity effect.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Yeah I wish I could play loud in my apartment. It has some of the best acoustics of any room I’ve been in

[@jaysonlavie603]

@@JohanSegeborn I guess that begs the question- is the quest to “capture” a 4x12 even worth it? for what’s it’s worth the attenuated recordings of 4x12s in your flat are the best on the channel

[@plexidust5101]

Great work Johan, to answer your question about others using this technique, I've included engineer Eric Valentines work which you will enjoy : kzbin.info/www/bejne/eauZZqScmN-Fo9k&pp=ygUUZXJpYyB2YWxlbnRpbmUgc2xhc2g%3D Also, like I mentioned a few years ago, I had good luck with a Sure SM81 condensor mic used shotgun style with a 4x12 straight as I called it. Dead center similar distance as you were using. I liked carpet on the floor to reduce reflection and I also like a 4X12 slant to record a single speaker up top. Like you mentioned you can get different Db or freq range on a quad. In some cases this is good, I have a complete 'mutt' cab thats beat to hell with 4 different speakers to take advantage of the variances, either individual mic or multiple with different distances. Even super long mic chords can be combined with super short for more fun. Great job and to add to Erics, suprise 'tool' check out whats called a ' box of doom '. You'll find it another fun tool, Cheers !

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks, great feedback. Am gonna take a look at Eric’s work right away!

[@Dr.Dark1331]

Thank you John but what is the correct difference for a 112 open vs a 112 closed back for the full sound of the speaker like this without close micing? I am asking because I and probably alot of us just own 112 combo amps or cabs and want to record the sound that we here in the room from our amps

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks, this method is only applicable for multiple speakers to find the distance where also the narrower beaming sound waves reach the mic since the mic is placed in between the speakers. I think for a 1x12 is only a matter of preference but as you say if you wanna pick up the reflections from the wall behind the open back maybe there are some positions that achieves that. I’m gonna make some experiments and see if anything generic can be said about that or if it’s fully situation dependent. Cheers

[@Dr.Dark1331]

@JohanSegeborn ok thank you Johan, as I am poor and only have a Peavey Bandit 112 Teal Stripe combo but am happy with its sound and trying to find the best methofs of recording it on a budget as I would rather record old school ways with real amps than with sims, nothing against people that use sims as they sound great usually but I just like doing things the old way and could care less if an amp is tube or solid state as long as it sounds good

[@ElliotCole333]

Honestly, i have found none of the recommended mic placement things to work for me. I put a sm57 1 finger width away from the edge of the baffle, and it sounds bloody amazing.

[@JohanSegeborn]

The room can’t be to live and tinny for it to pay off.

[@Hordebarraged]

Is it a coincidence that this distance is very close (in the 4x12) to the scale length of a guitar?

[@JohanSegeborn]

Cool, I didn’t think of that. It’s probably a coincidence though

[@snowandcoal]

Golden

[@yevgenydevine]

The only right way to position the mic is whatever sounds most appropriate. That is rarely ever symmetrical.

[@MojoMedicineMan]

👍👍

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks!

[@jaysonlavie603]

This why I always think 1x12 cabs record the best. The problem with this method is even ~20cm can be too much room sound in some rooms and applications.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Yeah the room must be as dead as possible otherwise all bets are indeed off

[@seitsen]

Does it have to be recorded with a tight pattern dynamic like a 57, though? Would it sound better from a distance with a condenser?

[@JohanSegeborn]

That’s a good question. I think that would be a trade off between sound fidelity on one side and reducing room reflections on the other. Omni always sounds most natural in a really good room to me. I’m gonna try this too!

[@keithrathie8326]

The thing is that multiple speakers create slight chorusing effect because sound arrives at the mic and this can in fact be quite desirable and it’s how our ears perceive it in the real world. The best possible position depends on what sounds good in the mix.

[@kevinmurtagh4996]

I love this effect in certain examples! One of my favorite bands, Guided By Voices, they used to make very lo-fi basement recordings. And you can always tell that they had the mic far from a multi-speaker cab, possibly because they had to pick up multiple sources in the room. But you can always tell when they were using a 2x12 or 4x12 because of the slight, natural chorusing effect coming through on the guitar. I understand this isn’t desirable to a lot of people. But for that band, for those recordings, it sounds amazing.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Yeah a little phase cancellation can be a good thing. It’s usually too much of it unfortunately though.

[@kevinmurtagh4996]

@@JohanSegeborn It is often too much, I agree.

[@keithrathie8326]

@@JohanSegeborn the phase cancellation that happens from multiple speakers tho is extremely limited which is why 412s sound so freaking good in the first place. Without distortion and phase cancellation FX we wouldn't have overdrive, saturation, distortion, reverb, chorus or delay type FX..science and physics can only go so far. Guitar amps and cabinets are not high fidelity representations of the source signal..they are heavily distorted representations of the original. If it were only about the science everyone would be plugging direct into the board with zero FX applied and calling it a day. Music is where art and science merge..lose the art and you're left with sterile, boring, insipid, but technically perfect music. Might as well hand the whole game over to AI.

[@keithrathie8326]

the scientific reason that phase cancellation from 412s isn't an issue is because wavelength differences across the spectrum are huge..every single tone from the guitar has a fundamental plus overtones that constantly shift..only very specific frequencies that are directly correlated to the distance differential that exist between a microphone and the multiple speakers producing the same signal are impacted..which means that in the real world it's a very very subtle and almost unnoticeable effect, especially when you factor into the equation the constantly shifting overtone landscape that is endemic to music ( as opposed to something like a sine wave generator) where in every single moment the overall frequency spectrum is in a constant state of flux. Any good engineer or producer will tell you that the most important tool in your arsenal is your own two ears.

[@Leemuzhko]

I think you need another mic, with different close-up effect. Maybe ribbon or omni directional condenser will serve you better. Or bass mic

[@JohanSegeborn]

Yeah in theory a true Omni mic doesn’t suffer from the proximity effect as much. I tried with an MD21 at the grill but the low end of that one still sounded basically as unbalanced as the cardioid SM57. Gonna keep trying though

[@victorbeebe8372]

My wife and I mailed our vote in.

[@JohanSegeborn]

The vote counting is the middle of the night here in Sweden but I’ll be up following it. ❤️🇺🇸

[@axelschwob210]

Hi…. 🤘🏼😁👍🏼

[@JohanSegeborn]

Cheers Axel!

[@Paul-dw2cl]

does a 2x12 cabinet sound different than a cabinet with one 12” speaker? in what way? Does recording a 2x12 sound different than recording cabinet with one 12” speaker?

[@JohanSegeborn]

Yeah with two speakers you have a phenomenon called mutual coupling that increases frequencies under 500Hz basically. There are probably other coupling effects too

[@crock2434]

I thought Center feild was for stereo imaging? If a 2x12 is mono wouldn't edge of cone be recommended?

[@JohanSegeborn]

When you pick up both speakers you capture more of the low end, and at larger distances like this the sound waves from both speakers need to arrive at the same time at the mic to avoid phase cancellation which is most easily achieved in the middle. However if it sounds good any positioning is welcome!

[@stephenchow5161]

my issue is phasing and cancellation. always trying to minimize this

[@JohanSegeborn]

Yeah that needs to be fine tuned also on top of this method

[@Avalaraeon]

🤯🤯🤯

[@JohanSegeborn]

Cheers

[@voxpathfinder15r]

Maybe someone should put opposing condenser mics at 90 degrees from the speakers in order to mimic the ears on a human head and place it where someone thinks the amplifier sounds good.

[@JohanSegeborn]

I think they will point outside the cab assuming having them perpendicular, but I’m definitely gonna try it!

[@chrisstevens4680]

Maybe the answer is to use impulse responses for recording.

[@JohanSegeborn]

It probably is for some styles

[@chrisstevens4680]

@@JohanSegeborn I forgot to add, what you are doing is most important for what you are doing when it comes to evaluating different speakers on KZbin. It is difficult to get a 'real' comparison/sound when we are not in the room with you, so thumbs up for all the effort!! Cheers! 🤘🤘

[@RCGreven]

Nice video. Might wanna try raising the cab up on a platform or lean it backwards to get rid of early reflections from the floor.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Thanks! Yeah that actually makes quite a difference. I tried it in this video earlier kzbin.info/www/bejne/mGGTeIWMn82WjdE but it completely slipped my mind now.

[@RCGreven]

my old recording teacher sometimes put cabinets on top of a foam absorber on the studio floor pointing upwards, then miced the speakers from above 😊

[@robkuhlman585]

I wonder if turning the slant 4 x 12 upside down regardless of raising it would help? I have a 1976 Marshall 4 x 12 that now I want to try this ;)

[@Herfinnur]

My suspicion is that this is the wrong microphone for this technique; these dynamic stage microphones where never intended for anything but close mic’ing. I’d try a large diaphragm mic, but one without much colouration, so not an emulation of a classic microphone. Maybe a Lewitt LCT 440. They’re very inexpensive for the great quality of sound they deliver. Can’t think of any other brand right now actually

[@JohanSegeborn]

Yeah you’re probably right about that. I’m gonna compare a bunch of mics this evening actually. C414, 2247LE, KM84, M160 etc

[@Herfinnur]

@@JohanSegeborn That’s so great to hear, looking forward to your findings

[@HerbieBancock]

Certified microphone expert holding a smartphone up to his face. Take a knee, boys.

[@JohanSegeborn]

😂 point taken

[@jimshorts125]

you know that pic of angus during backinblack with the 2x12 combo. Best compromise of being easier to record and you still get two speakers and the benefit of interaction/ series or parallel, whichever one prefers . Single speakers dont offer this.... Physics and science dont seem able to really say anything definitive about anything, including sound. the human ear is too sensitive and complex. In other words, it's impossible to capture the in the room sound of your own ears. Just move a mic around a 2x12 until you get good sound and call it done is best idea imo.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Yeah I’ve always wondered how much of Back in black that was recorded on that combo.

[@LIKEFUNK]

It's personal taste and it varies based on too many factors to mention here, cabs can be made to sound other than what they are depending on the mic/s and positioning proximity and type, to claim any exact exact distance or single position is going to automatically enhance or improve any capture is misleading

[@JohanSegeborn]

The claim of this video is that this is the minimum distance where also the higher beaming frequencies can be picked up. And that moving beyond that distance more reflections from the room are added. Any further claims than that would indeed be misleading.

[@LIKEFUNK]

@@JohanSegeborn Like I mentioned it depends on the particular mic being used and the db leaving the cab.

[@JohanSegeborn]

Do you mean that there are mics that can pick up the beaming frequencies closer to the cab? A Carioid picks up wider than a Figure 8, Shotgun etc. (an omni picks up wider but also at the back) But you need to be in a position at a sufficient distance from the cab for the higher frequencies to reach right? And different mics do indeed reproduce the sound differently. The purpose of doing this is for me to get better tone. I don’t wanna settle for these results so anything that can help me nuance this is highly welcome. I’ll start of by trying this with different mics and polar patterns

[@timonbutcherman]

Blending two sound sources IS ALWAYS phase cancellation. So it is only a matter of taste. The're no rules.