How to Ruin an Invasion and Never Have Any Fun - Elden Ring PVP

[@cestlavie5063]

This is a pretty neat and insightful explanation of an issue I never knew existed. I'm definitely the exception to this, as I enjoy the siege and attrition from all sides of the spectrum. It's like a puzzle or a game of operation. One issue I remember having with Elden ring PvP in general was the Arms race that came from the base co-op invasions. Invaders had to have the strength of 2 people minimum, so they had to use things that deleted someone immediately. That made gankers use similar shit for the 2 - 1 chance of deleting them first, now Invaders have to have the ability to counter that to compete. Throw casters into the mix for a need to have a spell parry or a rushdown option. Then, the poor casual co-opers or TT hosts have to fort up because they are against someone who has geared for every possible scenario. Invader typically wins, and the Arms race begins anew. I'm rambling. Sorry.

[@undefinedvariable8085]

Nah, you're right. I call it the "chicken and egg" problem; "who dun it first?" But it all comes back to fundamental implementation details and mechanics, which you can observe demonstrated at a high level simply through the damage output. Everything is OP, everything does too much damage. And all too often you're deleted in an instant. Add patch 1.10 to it and now it's even more egregious with a panoply of weapon arts that have become a "down controller" gimmick that true combo into themselves and will end you despite your stacked buffs and full HP. This over tuned damage lowers the skill ceiling, so now anyone can be an invader because they got the thing that 1 shots the host and all the phantoms. And, in the same way, it deteriorates the challenge skilled invaders are seeking because now casuals with now skill can emerge victorious with little to no effort simply by pressing the "I win" button.

[@wyrdthings]

The arms race is real and it's been overseen horribly by FROM tbh.

[@theredeemer2974]

You mean RoB? *The Orphan hears your call*

[@Typonam]

"The game is fun. The game is a battle. If it's not fun, why bother? If it's not a battle, where's the fun?"

[@wyrdthings]

100%. I came to fight and possibly die, not to hunt for an AFK farmer for fifteen minutes

[@AiresOne]

Greifing session? Greifing session.

[@fi4334]

@@AiresOneIdk what greifing means but griefing makes sense.

[@Clockdrive]

considering how awful invading is in ER I think invasions themself are built on spite

[@wyrdthings]

Solid theory

[@jamiekennedy4204]

This never gets talked about enough. This exact event happening every 2 invasions kills the fun for me every time but I'll admit I'm waaaayy to spiteful to give up

[@JohnDoe-pu5gk]

Then go play a better game!! Simple.

[@jamiekennedy4204]

@@JohnDoe-pu5gk I still enjoy the game but i can still complain about aspects of it that are shit, everyone does that.

[@ghoulishgoober3122]

​@@JohnDoe-pu5gkIt's one aspect that isn't even related to the game so much as the players in it though

[@NoNono-o3h]

​@@JohnDoe-pu5gkthere really isnt lmao, ds3 is worse, lords of the fallen doesnt even have pvp afaik, and no other game scratches that 3d fighting game itch. Unless you have other options of course!! Im listening

[@almightykars9350]

​@@NoNono-o3hDS3 at sub-meta levels is MUCH better. SL90 Bracket is extremely fun. Almost any location from HWoL to AoA/TRC, almost no gankers, and rare shitters I meet are actually pathetically bad. Best part is the legit good players that happen to get matched with you from time to time - they guarantee a good fight and a heart pumping for solid 5 mins afterwards. And if you're a PC player - install Wex Dust mod, it's insanely helpful. At Sl90 it's an almost instant invasion for most daylight hours.

[@timballisto]

I'm petty, if someone is dedicated to griefing other players with their buddies so be it. You have garnered my unfortunate presence. I have 451 volcanic stones and fromsoft allows crafting when outside of combat.

[@wyrdthings]

If you enjoy it, then more power to you sir

[@aninnocentbystander119]

I think the biggest failing of Elden Ring’s Invasion PVP is that it’s very design facilitates these “spite pits” rather than alleviate them. 4 player world limit, Blues, Taunter’s Tongue, Password summon and Overleveled Phantoms, a surplus of large AOEs and Long range Attacks with no friendly fire on the host’s and phantoms’s side. Passive play has always been the safest option in Souls like, but this time it heavily favors the host and the vastness/free form of the world means often means there’s so much more room for running away.

[@wyrdthings]

Yeah, even just preventing the toggling of the TT would diminish a great chunk of these encounters. There'll always be fogwallers and AFK farmers (apparently), but the fewer ways to intentionally be a shitter there are, the better the game will be.

[@TheMeanArena]

Because there's no over leveled invaders with an infinite amount of enemies + now spirit ashes at their disposal?

[@danielhatch673]

I think the issue is there a lot of people who just want to go explore and kill bosses with there friends but that invites invaders. Most of the time the people camping are just not into the invasion aspect of the game.

[@wyrdthings]

I honestly fault the game for misleading co-opers about how things work tbh. People expected multiplayer skyrim, not full multiplayer, and they feel betrayed when that's what they find. If solo invasions still existed, then co-opers wouldn't have such a burden to cope with, and invaders would be much more like a fact of life.

[@Dzimko-rc2io]

@@wyrdthings Why do you think people expected multiplayer skyrim? Basically any intro video to ER/DS mentions invasions. I think people expected fair fights against people of the similar skill/progression/gear and I blame the game that they don't get this. And thanks Miyazaki they dropped forced solo invasions. I think FS should add switch for invasions so we will see how many people truly enjoy getting suddenly invaded

[@Dzimko-rc2io]

@@Kamawan0 sooo they new about invasions but didn't like them. That's pretty much what I've suggested in my comment. IMHO forced invasions are bad. Even against co-op. Compare views on pure invasion videos and PVE oriented videos. Majority of players want to have good PVE and invasions don't help with this. There are ways to improve it so it can be more enjoyable. Severely limit twinking - meat dumplings, shards, talismans, talisman pouches etc. Add a time limit for an invasion. Give significant rewards to both sides. For example items to respec, +10/25 stones etc. Allow downscaling for invaders so they can configure 120 build even if they are lv500. And overall they should add more arena options. Like capture the flag or battle royale.

[@wyrdthings]

While I think that letting people opt-out of invasions while keeping multiplayer would be a mistake, I do acknowledge that, with the absence of solo hosts, co-op players are INUNDATED with invaders, and barely ever get a second to breathe. I fully support any changes that would prevent hosts, phantoms, and invaders from gaining these unfair advantages beyond what's built into the system itself - I feel we'd have a much better environment if it wasn't so easy to break the game balance. Not sure how I feel about time limits for invasions, but I do think there should be some incentive for an invader AND the host to proactively seek combat instead of waiting around. Gravelording was a wonderful idea that could see applications this way, perhaps...

[@Dzimko-rc2io]

@@Kamawan0 From perspective of invader? Probably yes. From perspective of PVE player - it's a great improvement. Now I don't need to keep a separate PVP weapon/spells or sacrifice 30% of my potential HP. I'm also not getting to fight twinks with half of my flasks while chased by mobs. I even had few double invaders for some reason. And please don't suggest offline - I like to help some people and see funny messages. And when I want to try some pvp - arena. I would also love to allow invading on my 2-3 playthroughs though. That's why I think it should be optional (checkbox) Also I thought DS3 had group priority.

[@frostivied9239]

They really need to do something about invasion especially on pc. The waiting time is unbearable and extremely infuriating when you find one and it’s exactly what described in this video. Solo invasion should’ve never removed really.

[@Jammermt99]

it wasnt removed its locked behind the use of taunters tongue which btw ds1 has the same exact concept but with humanities elden ring runs the style of old and new where in coop you can be invaded at any time but not have taunters tongue on or not being in coop means you don't it's basically fusing all 3 dark souls invasion mechcanics together

[@frostivied9239]

@@Jammermt99 I know, I’ve been playing since ds1. The solo invasion is essentially removed because most solo players will never use taunter tongue. Here’s the thing, humanities give benefits for players the same as embers also give even more benefits you can choose (because you can change runes in elden ring) yet in elden ring getting embered still doesn’t allow solo invasion. My point is, it doesn’t matter what they do to add or remove solo invasion what important is to repopulate the invasion again on pc. Enabling the solo invasion is just one of the things that could possibly do it.

[@Jammermt99]

@@frostivied9239 Many people use it for solo duels but i agree it might be a good idea to add a second way for solo invasions to work that does add a boon

[@wyrdthings]

100%. There's a bigg difference between solo invasions and Taunter's Tongue runs - not the least of which is that solo invasions teach solo players that invaders are a fact of life, and not a "punishment" for co-oping.

[@justaquietpeacefuldance]

​@@wyrdthings I'm mad at FromSoft form the very beginning, from the moment I picked up online items for messages and summoning even before talking to any NPC. You are taught to co-op before even swinging the weapon (assuming u skipped tutorial cave - that would be most of 1st time FromSoft players). Why didn't they introduce invasion mechanic through Varre right away in his 1st location, eyy? 'Cause invaders are punishment for co-op 👏👏Miyazaki, come back with Martin when u both come up with something better 😂 (it really hurt me on 1st few days of play 😟)

[@jaysuede2627]

Cathartic relief is the primary gain from Soulsborne games. The laughs and fun come from the unexpected.

[@NoNono-o3h]

Fr, people seem to be very oblivious to the fact that fighting a boss for hours is only fun after you kill it, until then its ass

[@wyrdthings]

See, I agree - but there's a point where the catharsis is no longer worth it, and I think that varies by person. I have beaten Aldritch countless times, and none of those times have been fun either before or after - every time has simply been an unpleasant task I need to do to keep playing the videogame. On the contrary, I died tons of times to Placidusax and had a blast the whole time. Godfrey was a joy to fight. Morgott is hella fun even before you beat him. There's an element of fun that isn't JUST the relief of frustration - it's tied to a sense of achievement too.

[@jaysuede2627]

@wyrdthings Fair enough. To wit, I only ever really enjoy low level invasions. Otherwise everything just ends up as either Endure-into-Giantsflame to win or katana-blender-into-teabag. ... Why is it always the katana dorks who teabag the most aggressively? Low self-esteem?

[@wyrdthings]

@@jaysuede2627 As an avid RL80 invaded, I agree wholeheartedly. Katana-blender-into-teabags happen more and more as you level up lol And honestly? I dunno. Part of me wants to say that the katanadudes are just more spiteful than others, but that seems too simple to be true

[@redninja8006]

Great take with good insight. I thought about people trying to ruin my fun out of spite of invaders a bit prior to this, and I came to the conclusion that if I give them what they want they will do it again, but now I realize that those who try to ruin your fun, gankers, will do it regardless of weather or not you wish to reply with spite or start a spite pit. at that point it is really best to decide if this encounter is worth your ever limited precious time.

[@spacedoohicky]

The problem is other people have a different perspective on what your fun is. An invader already appears spiteful to many hosts. If you talk to these guys nicely, and ask them how they feel, they will tell you that you appear to just be there to ruin their fun. Not in a spite pit, but by simply killing them you appear to be there to ruin their fun. At least going by streamers not many invaders consider this probably. Some poor fellow who doesn't ever pvp before gets put in a video, and called names. The viewers cheer this behavior on. This fosters further feelings that invaders are only intending to ruin host fun. If the host likes the game enough to continue playing they will grow a hatred, and get joy out of making gank squads with strangers met online in game. I believe this is what invaders need to understand in order to have fun. After the umpteenth time of getting one shot with rain of arrows, or terrorized with rot pots many a host is going to develop a single minded hatred of invaders. It's probably too late to solve this problem, likely because of spite itself. It doesn't matter if anyone's perspective is wrong. We're already going down hill. But having fun isn't always about winning. Sometimes you must lose which means not using the most broken things available to you. This goes for invaders who use dragon halberd, and goes for hosts summoning level 500 phantoms. But like I said, we're already likely passed the point of no return.

[@undefinedvariable8085]

@@spacedoohicky 100% It's often an "us vs them" mentality which is routinely perpetuated and promulgated throughout the community in subreddits and stream chats. These tend to devolve into echo chambers filled with circle jerks and "oh woe me" sentiments. Did you play a lot as a phantom or hunter before naturally moving towards invasions? Usually people with broader perspectives have seen enough from both ends of no man's land.

[@JohnDoe-pu5gk]

For some people pixels on a screen is their only life 😅😅😅

[@wyrdthings]

Some great insights here. I mention (I think) that a Host might have any number of reasons to view the invader as a bully, and that's more than often enough where the spite pit starts, but just as often they react with honest gumption and seek to put you down man-to-man, no stupid timewasting included. I respect these people, even though I acknowledge that they have no obligation to face me as they do

[@TheMeanArena]

So you think gankers are trying to ruin your fun as an invader who's trying to ruin the fun of the host? OK there!

[@cryog3nic_759]

This video got me thinking hard. I don't think I'm ever gonna hold an invasion chokepoint the same way again.

[@wyrdthings]

I was mostly just rambling lol, but I'm glad it ticked some grey cells :P

[@bonymacaroni3293]

beautifully comprehensive assessment of real elden phenomena, +wise words at the end

[@wyrdthings]

Thanks dude

[@lykos9836]

Solution to the constant phantom resummon. Just block the phantoms lmao

[@wyrdthings]

That's what i do lol, sometimes they just summon randoms though.

[@Just_come_back_to_reality]

This was a very well crafted video, and it was well articulated. Great video, man.

[@wyrdthings]

Thanks my dude, glad you enjoyed it :)

[@andresrodriguez2343]

Ladder campers are allergic to cracked tear ;)

[@MeneltirFalmaro]

>squad room/elevator camping >run in >swap to Stormhawk Axe >L2 >win On the other hand... >host runs around the open world regenerating flasks >20 minutes and 4 blues later >lose

[@wyrdthings]

the problems with ER in a nutshell tbh lol

[@Cosmic-Sorceress-17]

This explains a lot and really why I prefer to go on Taunter's Tongue runs instead of invading myself. No matter how people praise invasions, they rarely go well for me and I cannot see the appeal. So many hosts just bully or gank me and since I often play a mage, invaders in my runs sometimes treat me the same just because I'm holding a staff. I sometimes wonder I've accidentally caused spite pits: something I've done to change things up in my Liurnia runs is using Marika's Veil to near-perfectly hide in the massive Glintstone formations found around the area. Just slot myself into one of the formations and see how long it takes invaders to find me. Has led to some very fun and tense encounters: even surprised a couple people who would have just cheesed me if we fought outright. I almost always prefer to go on the these runs alone, rarely with one friend. One invader, one host: I think after what most invaders deal with, it is a welcome change. Some have just become so... well, spiteful and in turn they see a lone host as just an easy win instead as welcome reprieve. People still treat me like I'm a ganker, just trying to kill me as quickly as possible. It's all a bitter cycle and I am glad someone else sees that.

[@wyrdthings]

An unaccompanied TT run really shows how jaded and mean the invader population has become, for sure. As many chill invaders as I meet, I still have to accept that the survivors are mostly very jaded and cynical of host motivations at this point, or were always intending on being toxic from the start. It's a truly sorry state of affairs.

[@Cosmic-Sorceress-17]

@@wyrdthings I just take to blocking toxic invaders at this point. Jaded or toxic from the get-go, it's all the same to me when they oneshot me before I can cast and teabag me for existing. The nigh dogmatic hatred of mages only makes it worse: I feel sorry for the jaded invaders, for the mages who were let down by other spells because of how easy it is to evade to magic when it's just one person... You put it the best. It's a sorry state of affairs and it's hard not to fall into the spite myself. It's a plague, one the puts the Scarlet Rot to shame.

[@wyrdthings]

@@Cosmic-Sorceress-17 Oof, I feel that. Invaders are some of the first players to optimize the fun out of a game, if they're not being careful, and I've met plenty of invaders who I've refused to back up or even turned against because of the way they engage with the game. Like you say - it's nearly impossible to tell the jaded from the naturally mean in the wild. And, being honest, I hate fighting pew-pew mages as much as the next guy, but I do try to judge the other players I meet case-by-case. Nothing worse than bringing baggage from the last invasion into the next one - and it's a common failing for almost all of us. Any TT host, especially if they're not summoning blues, deserves respect if they're braving a level on their own with invaders about. That takes balls, crystal or otherwise. For now, yeah, blocking people we don't want to play with is our only option, and one I endorse. There's no reason to expose yourself to those kinds of people, be they toxic or simply un-fun for you to play with. Hope your experience gets better - Regardless of what invaders may say, it's people like you that keep the game alive.

[@Cosmic-Sorceress-17]

@@wyrdthings Thank you: despite my negative encounters, I've had some genuinely great fights with people who appreciate my magical skills. It's easy to just cast Comet, Night Comet, Star Shower, or Stars of Ruin over and over, so I commit myself to using as many spells as I can fit into my attunement, each with their own purpose. Shard Spiral and Star Shower force movement and combo with other spells and consumable weapons, Shattering Crystal is my main close range attack and combos from my staff-spin to punish aggression, Crystal Release is my "Get off me!" attack that also punishes aggression quite severely, Rennala's Moon and Stars of Ruin or Cannon of Haima are my ultimates that I use because I like them, Comet is for harsh punishes, Great Shard and Comet Shard are my basic attacks, it goes on. I like to mix things up. There are spells I'd love to use more like Crystal Torrent, Comet Azur, and Founding Rain, but it's too many slots for unsatisfactory payout. I have a lot of grievances with Elden Ring's magic despite how advanced it is compared to Dark Souls: most personal tweaks and expansions to schools of sorcery that you can't really invest in since the spells are too few. Ramble aside, I won't let the negativity get to me. I've stuck around by sheer stubborn determination and experience and I don't plan on letting myself get jaded. Burned out, maybe: but the good moments keep me coming back.

[@TheMeanArena]

You're an unwanted guest. Expect a beat down!

[@vitorvena]

Elden Ring invasions are the worst by far, so much wrong it basically enables such behavior by default... You know, i always think about how these games are praised for not holding your hand throughout the journey but that couldnt be further from the truth when it comes to organic player interactions...

[@ghoulishgoober3122]

Other players hold each other's hands?

[@vitorvena]

@@ghoulishgoober3122 oh they do much more than just hold their hands lol

[@TheMeanArena]

Maybe those players don't want you there? Who invited you to their game? You? People need to stop crying about PVP and enjoy yet another Sadist vs Masochist rendition by From Software!

[@vitorvena]

@@TheMeanArena dont you feel ashaned of sayung such dumb sht on the internet? "Maybe those players don't want you there" Thats like saying "Maybe people dont want to get shot" while they actively join a multiplayer shooter game... Youre the one who needs to stop crying about PvP, my complaint is about game balance for both the PvP and the PvE, you just whining that you cant just reap the benefits of the multiplayer without the risk inherent to it.

[@KyleNoland]

Dude! You put a lot of true words into a phenomenon I experience very often as an invader. Fantastic content! I do feel like this was a bit of a sad topic, which I've been trying to overcome and just "git better" as it were. Still, even if it doesn't truly exist, I continue to fight for the hope that one day BS hosts and ganks can be overcome with simply enough skill and pratice on the invader's part. Should we have to become legends just to enjoy the pvp? IDK I just think the odds are too far stacked with the host's favor. But maybe one of these days a new mechanic will make it even a hair more fair, which would be enough for most seasoned invaders to take the fun back away from dirty pvp gankers. Cheers to you my fellow red!

[@wyrdthings]

Glad you got something out of it dude :) I was just ranting tbh lol

[@theredeemer2974]

Step one to winning every invasion: be chasethebro /j

[@mattwhite8556]

Its almost like people hate invasions and will make invading as miserable as possible. I won't do this, as I'll just go ham to get the invasion over with. Sometimes I win, most of the times I lose. Invasions just suck, and its something that I just deal with for the fun of coop. I mean, seriously, do you really think that coop players want you in their game?

[@OskarVanBruce]

Stop twinking and maybe Fromsoft wouldn't be forced to do all this shit

[@wyrdthings]

y'all first

[@Anthropropos]

This is a really serious issue which makes players leave after finishing several times and collecting every item. You evaluate this mess in depth and explain it quite respectful and untoxic. What's up to change to get it valuable again? Single host invasions?

[@wyrdthings]

Thankyou! And honestly, I don't know what would help at this point. Solo invasions would go a long way, but the toxic environment around invasions is encouraged from multiple angles (abusable fogwalls, AFK farming spots, resistances making status twinking incredibly powerful...), so I'd be hard pressed to say how I'd approach every single one of them :(

[@TheMeanArena]

Sadist vs Masochist is the name of the game. Nothing needs changed!

[@narutohuga1458]

Ahh Wyrd the David Attenborough of the Souls Genre very informative sir damn good job

[@wyrdthings]

Honestly this is just me rambling for ten minutes lol but ty

[@deliberatelybob6161]

Hearing you talk about spite pits reminds me of how I used to be playing this game to an extent. I remember having a big ego and feeling that I always had to win in order to either prove something or at least sustain said ego. However after playing this game enough, I just don't care anymore, and I've certainly changed for the better as well. It's kinda like the five stages of grief except I've finally reached the 'acceptance' stage and it really feels nice. Personally, I've become more so an advocate of blame the game, not the players. Of course if someone wants to bm me, that's different but it no longer affects me now. Games are meant to be fun and if you aren't taking some enjoyment in what you're playing, then what's really the point? You're realistically wasting your time in a pit of misery when you could be having fun and relaxing while playing your favorite game. It's a good reason why so many people watch Chase as his attitude is overwhelmingly positive and inviting rather than negative. People like spending their time either having fun or in the company of people who are having fun themselves. Pretty simple yet easy to forget concept.

[@wyrdthings]

Well said my man. It's quite surprising how easy it is to forget why you're playing the game in the first place if you don't keep things in perspective

[@ethansam3443]

Me: oooo the spite pit? wyrd’s about to get spicy! Wyrd: Nope. I’m about to hit you with some philosophical ideas and zen advice that will improve your life…and your Elden Ring experience Me: 😮

[@Al_Mighty8686]

As an invader, you are not supposed to win. You're outnumbered with limited heals, resources, and time, and there's usually one or more experienced players that have a hundred and one tools to kick your ass. On paper, there is no scenario where you come out on top. You're not only fighting against other players, but the very design of the game itself. If you go into an invasion with the singular goal of winning, you've already started digging your very own spite pit. So stop playing to win, and just play to play.

[@wyrdthings]

Well said my dude. If the invasion isn't offering you enjoyment by playing it, then there's no real reason to stick around, win or lose.

[@servine1212]

Amen

[@SnausageTime]

I think Saint Riot has a great strategy for spite pits - the strategy being a build that sits in golden land and regens health if the hosts don't want to push and fight.

[@wyrdthings]

For sure - if you wanna engage in this kind of fight on the regular, being prepared for it helps a ton.

[@justaquietpeacefuldance]

I like how basically all comments are saying "yea, I know exactly what u are talking about" and it probably doesn't matter how much experience someone might have but rather if they invaded for long stretches of time/1 session. It's so common.

[@wyrdthings]

It's practically inevitable tbh

[@IliumGaming]

had this happen in raya lucaria last night. they got the church of the cuckoo grace and decided that was far enough.

[@wyrdthings]

Oof, sympathies

[@IliumGaming]

@@wyrdthings It honestly doesn't frustrate me I just find it really funny. Like the worst thing that happens is they die in a video game but they'd rather just not play

[@HalozillaEX]

IMO the problem is that hosts are taught the opposite lesson; they dont learn to not give up, they learn that if they ever face adversity, they should just hang back and let someone else (and overleveled phantom or a blue) handle it. So what happens is that both host and phantoms just hang back and hoping someone else comes and makes the bad red man go away. also fuck blues, they actually ruin pvp, lmao.

[@pitshoster401]

All Blues Are Bastards

[@wyrdthings]

A very good point tbh - the way the game teaches co-opers to play is maddeningly poor

[@TheMeanArena]

I bet when you invade you're over leveled no? Twinked out to the gills maybe for that easy host kill?

[@HalozillaEX]

@@TheMeanArena You cant be overleveled for invasions. The matchmaking only lets you invade players a few levels below you, but it can also match you with players who are several levels higher than you. So most of the time, its the people I'm invading who are overleveled. Weapon upgrade levels are also very strict. It is impossible to invade players with +1 weapons if I have a +10 weapon, for example. You should try invading sometime and see how "easy" it is to get those host kills. You ever fight two or three players at once and win? Fucking doubtful, lmao.

[@TheMeanArena]

@@HalozillaEX Usually meaning, just twinked out to a special build. Not actually an insanely high level vs extremely low level. I know that's not possible.

[@iRunKids]

This situation isn't as bad as the ultra-laggy phantom-hit stat-proc builds who only get a hit on you after they miss 4 times but you still got the madness/etc buildup anyways.

[@wyrdthings]

Oh for sure there's nothing to be done about that - shit is unplayable

[@bigmitchy4026]

I think there's something you're missing. In a lot of these situations the players aren't doing these things out of spite, they're doing them cause they're actually effective. They want to win. You mentioned at some point that it becomes more about making them lose than your own winning. But that's how you win. 99% of the time your win is dictated by forcing them to lose (by taking damage). In a game like CTF the mentality could be arguably different cause it's defined by "I need to collect flags", but in 90% of games like this, on a conceptual level, your winning is dictated by "making them die". Holding up in a small room with 2 phantoms is just the most tactical, like you said, it's a death trap. You've created an impenetrable fortress for all intents and purposes. Poking out and damaging them with ranged attacks is just even more effective. You've created a scenario where they can't damage you but you can damage them, thus your victory is assured. Similar with elevator traps, the invader sees 3 dudes and is like "charging in will get me killed, if I don't want to die, I should elevator trap them". And the phantoms see them and decides not to go up because it's just self-preservation. I think a lot of this just comes down to self preservation. I don't want to die, so I will avoid death. This is just how players act normally. The spite pit stuff is probably accurate for some instances, but I feel like it's probably an extremely small amount of these stalemate situations. I think in the vast majority of situations spite is gonna play little to no role. It feels like an Occam's Razor where sure, it could be spite, but it seems like a much simpler and straight forward answer to assume players are just using effective strategies to win. Bare in mind I don't play a lot of PvP myself, I just do theme'd solo runs and watch PvP on KZbin.

[@bigmitchy4026]

Also, the whole 'relief vs fun' thing feels off to me. Cause you could very easily make that argument for just the souls games in general. "Oh you didn't actually have fun fighting that boss, that positive thing you're feeling isn't 'fun', it's just relief". And sure, for some players that's true. But for a lot of people they probably like that and think the relief at the end is part of the fun. If you're just describing how you feel at the end of those encounters, that's fine. But it seems a little naive to assume you know what other people are feeling in those situations unless you've talked to a bunch of people about how they feel.

[@wyrdthings]

I did mention that I'm not talking about the invasions where a single "cheese tactic" is present - I'm talking about instances that are basically impasses. AFK farmers, for example, often successfully remove the possibility of themselves losing WITHOUT killing the person they're preventing from winning. Soft fogwallers can do the same, as can a great number of other situations. All this video is saying is that once the frustration of dealing with something exceeds the satisfaction of overcoming it, then it really isn't worth it from an enjoyment perspective. I'm not presuming what others think. I talk to a lot of invaders, sure, but these are all mostly my own thoughts and observations of my own experiences. Trying to wait out an AFK farmer or fight a gank hiding behind a soft fogwall is an exercise in futility, and even if I do manage to win somehow, the victory often just feels like a waste of time. Hence, in those situations, I leave. I've seen more than enough hatemail to confirm the presence of spite in these circumstances, too.

[@josephstalin6803]

The crusade must continue ☀️

[@stevenneiman1554]

I'm not sure if there is a solution Fromsoft could have implemented without creating other problems, but I feel like part of the problem is that invasions are never really consensual, with a few exceptions. If someone didn't use either a blue cipher ring, a taunter's tongue, or touch a red summon sign, they opted in to invasions either unwittingly or as a price for getting help and I'd say there's at least a 50% chance they think you're a jerk even if you fight in a fair and honorable way just for being there at all. Unfortunately, protecting the people who don't have any fun getting invaded isn't really possible without either scrapping the mechanic entirely or splitting the matchmaking pools in ways that would hurt everyone's matchmaking experience. Personally, what I find is that any time there's a balance patch PVP gets fun again for a couple days, but once the invaders figure out the optimal PVP strategies again it just becomes frustrating and unfun dealing with 80-90% of invasions even if the invader isn't deliberately being a dick. Also, as someone who loves co-op, it's really obnoxious when I'm excited for a summoning and then realize after puttering around for a minute or two that the host just dragged me into their taunter's tongue fight club and has zero intention of using my help to accomplish anything.

[@wyrdthings]

The removal of covenants was a huge misstep in that way - covenants at least afforded people a context by which to engage with PvP in a way that wasn't "look at this BAD MAN forcing me to play PvP!" (even though that's not really the case). Heck, tying invasions to co-op only made them feel more like a punishment, and less like a part of the core game experience. The execution leaves a lot to be desired

[@stevenneiman1554]

@@wyrdthings I'm torn on the co-op only part. On one hand, I think that considering invaders tend to be people who build for and have experience with PVP putting them at a numeric disadvantage makes a degree of sense, but on the other hand people who lean on co-op are probably the ones who least want to get invaded and they are not only getting invaded anyways but getting the entire invader population matched with them. One thing I really wish is that the taunter's tongue had an option for "allow invasions without co-op but don't allow gang-ups, since I think there'd be some enjoyment to having an explicit opt-in for PVP that doesn't require fighting outnumbered.

[@fi4334]

Forgive me if I misunderstood, but do you expect to lure out host and phantom to a bunch of enemies and it’s considered a spite pit if they refuse to follow you into the next room with npc enemies?

[@wyrdthings]

No - a spite pit is when either one of us deliberately plays toward a stalemate or a non-contest. It's not a specific play that makes a spite pit - it's a way of playing. You can create a spite pit by any number of means. A simple definition is 'if, at any point, your objective switches from 'having fun' to 'denying the other guy fun', you've entered a spite pit.'

[@attackmanatee02]

I may go back and invade some now. I feel like at this point in the game's life, MOST of the more toxic invaders and hosts have probably left and id like to think some honor has returned

[@nullspace9927]

Invading itself is dishonorable. Intention is everything. Invaders want fun out someone else's expense, someone who needed help.

[@attackmanatee02]

@@nullspace9927 this is the issue with the player base. People assume invaders only invade to ruin people's day. I invade because I like the hunt aspect. I cant get that in duels. I like exploring the level trying to find the host mainly

[@davidmccormick550]

Good. Bring on the spite pits. I hate PVP and the frankly toxic faction tgat glorifies it. I don’t play online and I never have.

[@wyrdthings]

I'm glad you don't play online, if that's your attitude.

[@NoonSlayer-wy6nd]

For anyone who isn’t a veteran just know we’ve always had scumbags

[@Purpleturtlehurtler]

Best Ted Talk ever. 🔥🔥🔥

[@Purpleturtlehurtler]

@@Kamawan0 oops. Lmao

[@nlm7033]

People will really try to say this is better than AC 6

[@ghoulishgoober3122]

It is :3 maybe if Assassin's Creed 6 were released before Assassin's Creed 5, 4, rogue, china, russia, egypt, etc...

[@wyrdthings]

If I could have ER's combat and mechanics with AC6's networking and stability I would be a happy man

[@nlm7033]

@@wyrdthings fr, like despite AC 6 being an unbalanced miss (Zimmermans) the networking nails it 100% compared to soulsborne games

[@nonononononoye]

Been on GTA online? That's the man camping with a sniper on call of duty Every game has its own subgenre of game with its own weird version of the spite pit and it has killed so many online games for me Bro I think you just coined a term spite pit man. Imma use that for stuff as a broad ass metaphor cuz it suits

[@wyrdthings]

Haha I'm glad you think so :P

[@TheHogfatherInvades]

I'm a spite pit main when I invade

[@wyrdthings]

Aren't we all lol

[@Undead-Knight]

Thanks for tuning into WrydThings philosophy where we ask if a shitter ganker dies in the woods and there’s no invader to hear his screams does he still cry on Reddit ?

[@wyrdthings]

a profound question indeed

[@Suture33]

Just dashboard on the invader and block them. Never see them again

[@undefinedvariable8085]

11:24 The way you sum it up here is how I've come to see it: if it's an opportunity cost (i.e. it's costing you the opportunity to enjoy yourself somewhere else), you're wasting your time and you should leave. Whether you're an an invader, a hunter, or a summon, it usually isn't worth the short lived satisfaction, or relief, at the end of it all. Just move on.

[@wyrdthings]

For sure. Challenging battles are great, but once it starts feeling like a chore then you're just wasting your time, win or lose.

[@DTPandemonium]

I only invade with my faith setups because of this. Can one shot people with massive AoEs, chasedown with catch flame and heal to full many times when they just sit there. I dont dupe or use cheat engine to have insane resources and I legitametely believe you cant play most other builds without doing so in invasions since "spite pits" are so common. Invasions are very one sided in ER that you need to essentially have access to resources you shouldnt have to be able to compete as a red.

[@wyrdthings]

Honestly you're 100% correct. I'd prefer to set everything up manually like I did in DS3, where I could just buy all the stuff I needed with Souls... but in ER, the absence of certain status cures or auxiliary resource generation can multiply the difficulty to incredible, often unwinnable degrees... It's honestly very stupid lol

[@declanbouvier7954]

ah.... and then there's fight club....

[@wyrdthings]

I miss DS3

[@sighyawn6378]

invasions are nearly a dead mechanic especially on PC. multiplayer mechanics in elden ring may be the worst out of all the souls game. long invasion wait times, constant fog walls or hosts who just run away, the issue of latency making the game damn near unplayable at times, endless blue phantoms, no co-invaders, no seamless co-op, etc etc. its gotten to the point of being pure pain just attempting to play.

[@wyrdthings]

You're not wrong - I'm convinced that 1.10 did something bad to the networking or something...

[@Zelerax]

A lot of interesting ideas in this video. As an invader myself, I can say that the war of attrition aka "the spite pit" is real. But this mostly happens with Liurnia ganks and other gank squads just waiting for you to invade. Most PVE casual groups don't have the knowledge, experience, or resources to prolonge an engagement and usually rush you. That, or they just camp the bonfire in which case they usually run out of fp spamming spells at a door and are easy pickings after 2 minutes. In my opinion, the problem is the overleveled gank squads just waiting for you to invade and also the inability to invade single hosts, god I miss ds3 invasions.

[@wyrdthings]

I think you're onto something there - the people who create spite pits (invaders OR hosts) are usually experienced enough to know HOW, meaning that this isn't a problem caused by new players...

[@Zelerax]

@@wyrdthings true, and it sucks that without the dlc, most casual players are gone leaving the sweaty gank squads just waiting for you for a solid 70% of invasions.

[@wyrdthings]

@@Zelerax The natural life cycle of the game, unfortunately. Still, I'd hoped that we could avoid becoming more toxic as a community, but it seems that'll always be a part of it. Still, the people I meet who ARE chill go a long way toward making it feel worth it :)

[@bobfresh473]

Good vid

[@wyrdthings]

Thanks my man :)

[@royaltxc]

What about invasors running to mobs?

[@wyrdthings]

?

[@KybonTheRenegade]

I'm not trying to dispute any of your points because in my experience most (if not all) of them are accurate, but the one thing that I would say is that invaders often need to win through intelligence and creativity more than just using the most optimal setups or simple strategies. I've been in plenty of invasions where the host and his phantoms hunker down and will not engage you no matter what unless you go inside their trap, but for me the answer to that has always been to brazenly walk in and then lure them back out because they lose sight of their plan after having thought it succeeded. Granted that doesn't always work and it often gets me killed, but I think going into invasions with the mindset of being exclusively interested in winning every single one has already lost sight of the fun within them in a somewhat similar way. Anyway this wasnt meant to be a rant or intended to critique your opinions or anything, I've been enjoying your videos and I just thought I'd add my 2 cents. The biggest problem with afk farmers near the beginning of the games launch was that they didn't care at all about the invader's time or enjoyment of the game, so I do see where youre coming from, but remember, if they're hunkered down and refuse to go anywhere, that means they're just that scared of the bad red man 😉

[@undefinedvariable8085]

Yea, I mean, that's it. Odds are always going to be stacked against you as an invader inherently so if you're rushing in there expecting to win by spamming R1 or L2 then you're going to get disappointed. It amazes me when I see invaders not use their phantom fingers in some of these situations - an advantage hosts and summons don't have. Similarly, it's so satisfying when I come up on a group from behind holding what they think is the high ground and giving them the good ol' "surprise mother fucker" treatment then seeing them scatter in panic, plans fall apart and chaos ensues.

[@KybonTheRenegade]

@@undefinedvariable8085 yeah that's a great tactic. And usually just killing one of the 3 dudes is enough to entirely shift the dynamic of power in the invasion and make the hosts start running away instead of trying to defend an area, but not always. There's a lot to read and gauge in invasions that take a lot of time and experience to learn

[@undefinedvariable8085]

​@@KybonTheRenegade It's amazing how quickly that dynamic can shift with just one player taken out of the equation. Against a skilled and experienced invader, it can be all they need to practically assure victory, especially against inexperienced players who panic and have no back up plans or contingencies (always the mark of noobs, 1 trick ponies). It's that "I got you now" moment.

[@wyrdthings]

For sure. Situations where there's something to be done aren't really what I'm talking about - but cracking a strong trap is satisfying on its own sometimes. Though elevator-button-standers, chainsaw glitchers, and AFK farmers don't give the same satisfaction. I'd just rather not play with them lol

[@KybonTheRenegade]

@@wyrdthings chainsaw glitchers I just peace because I'm not beating that but afk farmers, button standers and resummon hiders deserve the most brutal deaths we can deliver

[@oysterlad]

When you consider how overtuned some parts of this game are, solo invasions would be a nightmare for the hosts and would drastically increase off line play. Imagine trying to get through castle sol with an invader kitted out with mohgs spear and sleep bolts. And obviously this could never work for overworld exploration since getting booted off your horse would be a truly miserable time. Really, the solution would be covenants imo. Btw I used to invade a lot but stopped since I got sick of ganks and fog walls. Then I started to truly despise invaders after trying to do TT runs and every other invader would kill me from stealth with a rain of golem arrows. Fuck that.

[@wyrdthings]

Honestly, solo invasions would be an incentive for hosts to summon phantoms, instead of a punishment. A confident Host could brave a world where they would only VERY infrequently be invaded (since the invasion pool would be huge), and a less-confidennt one could summon help or blue phantoms for the same rare occurrence. Invasions would be far far more tolerable if they didn't haveen every 15 minutes, and it'd feel more like an exciting and tense situation - especially if they did the logical thing and made sure every 'zone' had at least one fogwall the Host could use to "escape" if they didn't feel up to facing the invader. With the addition of covenants, as you said, it would make invasions feel far more like an intended part of the experience, and give the Host more incentive to engage in the risky business in the first place. The current state has just darwinistically selected for the most toxic behavior possible from all parties, it's depressing

[@Superluminal_30000]

I feel you.Using TT has made me understand why gankers exist .I've blocked about 50 people in a week.Some invaders are pretty cool though.

[@xenosayain1506]

The invasion situation is proof we need scripted solo invasions. Or for people to be open for invasion just for beating any boss. It would open the game up dramatically. Just prioritize cooper like ds3

[@wyrdthings]

Agreed tbh

[@justaquietpeacefuldance]

There will always be griefers on both sides. I just don't understand how this community as a whole doesn't perceive a fact that lack of solo invasions is creating even more toxic environment. PvP is being introduced only to new players who already play in groups and of course Invaders look like a-holes. I mean when I first got roll caught to death by some claymore/lapp redman in DS3, I thought the guy was a jerk 😂 There is a ton of decent, creative and fun people who tried invading and got absolutely destroyed and bagged in ER, that's how this game is designed, I don't even too much anecdotal proof, it's in the nature of basic Elden Ring invasion themed "two dudes standing in the field doing nothing". This somehow ties to the idea of solo invasions and being nicer to each other in a video game but I forgot the details so... 😅

[@wyrdthings]

Well said lol

[@leet3049]

Than there some of us that, just wants to see how far does it go, how much further can you it be taken. ; )

[@wyrdthings]

I wouldn't want it to be every invasion, but it's never a bad idea to try pushing yourself that is very true

[@FrankTank47]

This was a great video ty !

[@wyrdthings]

Glad you thought so! ybh I was just rambling but I'm happy that people got something out of it lol

[@flurb3285]

Problem is imo, if i leave the pit everytime, they would just all do that, all the time 🤔 it s already pretty often.. i was way less in ds but elden ring community is full of.. meh.

[@wyrdthings]

If they do that every time, then I don't wanna play with them, right? If the game is void of people you want to play with, there's no point in trying to form other people in their image

[@flurb3285]

@@wyrdthings makes sens, i exagerated a bit there it s still pretty fun most of the time x) very cool video btw it s nice to have someone putting it in such a clear way 👍

[@wyrdthings]

@@flurb3285 Haha yeah I get it - sometimes you really do feel like you're encouraging the problem. And thanks my man, I'm glad people found such value in my ranting lol

[@DEarls-ye9tz]

I don't hate you guys. I don't want to take away your fun. I just want to play Elden Ring with you. ☹️

[@wyrdthings]

I think that's how most people are tbh. The majority of hosts and phantoms I meet seem to be having a good time, and enjoy the fights when they happen (even when a bit of cheese of some meta shenanigans are involved). Spite Pits are honestly quite rare in comparison

[@DEarls-ye9tz]

@wyrdthings I get a lot of them, even going back to DS2/DS3 I opted out of PVP more often than not because it was rarely fun. I never understood why until it was explained to me, but I like Elden Ring's coliseums helped a lot because those are almost always fun.

[@wyrdthings]

I'm not a personal fan of the arena, but I'm glad it exists. I think the biggest tragedy is the state of the Blue Hunters - whose original purpose was to basically teach new pvp players about how invasions work. Now, without solo invasions spreading the pool, they're just kind of exploited by gankers and little else... It's an honest shame.

[@joejoe6411]

Lol

[@Tommy-bd2wq]

This is why they should make pvp optional. So you only fight people who like pvp

[@wyrdthings]

Multiplayer is already optional.

[@Tommy-bd2wq]

@@wyrdthings if you like to play online with friends its not.

[@wyrdthings]

That's because it isn't a Co-op game. It's a multiplayer game. If someone goes into the experience expecting it to be something it isn't, then that's the player's fault, not the game's. Go and play one of the other 3 billion co-op-only fantasy RPGs. A game doesn't need to cater to every player. For everyone else who wants to have their cake and eat it too - there's a mod for that. No reason to still be complaining about it.

[@StoicScape219]

What pisses me off is the game is massively stacked against us and we’re treated like NPC invaders. Invaders are treated like estus resupply, just like NPC invaders are easily killed for rewards. FROM is treating us like NPCs, like we’re meant to be easily beaten by these trash players and their terribly scaled down phantoms that FROM is outright refusing to address. Reds are just seen as the bad guy who is meant to lose despite skill differences, like a stereotypical cartoon show.

[@wyrdthings]

Honestly it's gotten to the point where I couldn't tell you how to make invasions better anymore

[@StoicScape219]

@@wyrdthings I literally got 355k souls last night killing a trash kid’s Mage phantom: on my LV 60 INVADER. That kid has a lv 713 helping him just to clear mobs bro and that mofo spell spam was hitting me for fat chunks of health. If I wasn’t on a dedicated bleed build I doubt I’d have won that

[@kameron6994]

well the good thing for me is i’m not pressed about winning but i am petty af. at least with shitty gankers. you wanna wait out? bet, i’ll just drop holy ground with my warming stones and enjoy the light i’ve put in my head that anybody who actively ganks is NOT a skilled player so even after we step out the spite pit and i lose. it’s cool. gankers are highly desperate for a win, i’m not. enjoy fellas ill be back because i know once it becomes a 2v1 or 1v1, the tower falls and the win is near

[@wyrdthings]

knocking down the tower is true satisfaction, to be sure lol

[@meestristan4491]

I don't care if i have fun or not... I revel in the opportunity to kill every single hunter and summon, only to kill the host who's running away with his moonveil wich he cant use anymore cuz he's out of blue 😈

[@wyrdthings]

Man went blood-drunk

[@theredeemer2974]

You literally would have won at the start of the video, first invasion (if there were any others i haven't gotten that far yet) if sacred blade had slightly more projectile lifetime

[@wyrdthings]

Ikr lol Though honestly I'm glad it doesn't

[@theredeemer2974]

yeah sacred blade is good enough already

[@barrykp]

I've never invaded anyone (except to finish varre's quest, and I made no attempt to win those), but I did try a taunter's tongue run for a while and ran into this kind of behaviour from invaders. Run away and run away and run away, never fight, camp under very strong monsters (e.g. birds in Caelid) , only spam me with ranged crap. What can I do about it? Stop using taunter's tongue I guess. I thought it would be a way to introduce myself to PvP. But, tbh, I don't think the invasion system is really supposed to be some kind of honourable, everyone-always-gets-to-enjoy-it, system. It's up to each party to take responsibility for how much they enjoy it, and not blame the others for sucking the fun out of it. It is not an invader's job to entertain the host, and vice versa. I don't know what kind of a system might encourage the sort of behaviour you like, but "evil red man invades your world to try and kill you" is probably not it.

[@wyrdthings]

Oh, I don't disagree. I'm not talking about honor though - I'm talking about knowingly sabotaging the game being played. Some people seem to think that if they can not lose, that that is the same as winning, whereas it mostly just wastes time and makes me lose interest in the fight. I don't know anyone who really enjoys invading unreachable AFK farmers, or people chainsaw-cheesing you from behind fogwalls or through unopened doors. I'm not sure I subscribe to the idea of people being completely detached from the fun of others - I think we all know how to act like shitters if we wanted - but it is true that the ultimate arbiter of 'if the fun on offer is worth the effort' is you, which is why I say what I do in this video

[@TheDevourerOfGods]

Yeah I see this a lot. Invasions can take forever if none of the players are willing to take any risks. But if I just take all the risks, ignoring traps and being outnumbered, it feels so good to win. It's an invasion I'll remember for days to come, and not in a bad way.

[@wyrdthings]

For sure. No reason to try past the point of enjoyment, but overcoming adversity can be great fun. Though, I think I'll leave AFK farmers to themselves - that's not a kind of adversity I care about fighting

[@TheDevourerOfGods]

Fr though. I don't wanna waste my time. Especially with those AFK farmers.

[@mlm82]

i dont play elden ring any more. and just wonder how cool it would be to play with friends if you wouldn't get invaded every other minute. It's absolutely retarded that playing with friends is not allowed without also constantly having to deal with invaders.

[@wyrdthings]

Sounds like the game wasn't for you, then. Not every game needs to cater to the way you prefer to play.

[@mlm82]

@@wyrdthings if invasions were somehow limited it would be ok. But when you cant make progress because invasions are literally back to back. We managed to kill one invader. Another joins. I guess like you say. Working as intended and, not for me. Or anyone else cuz i see many people upset. Only people not upset are the invaders who think this is so cool to kill people that dont want to deal with it.

[@wyrdthings]

@@mlm82 Invasions have a cooldown unless the Taunter's Tongue is enabled, in which case you have enough numbers to trivialize the whole game. Any competent host/phantom team will have very little trouble with invaders. Just because someone gets upset doesn't mean they're right. Sometimes they just need to get over themselves. If you think invaders aren't upset with the state of the game, you've not bothered to check.

[@mlm82]

@@wyrdthings Ah yes. Why don't we think of the poor invaders. Constantly having to try and kill players who don't even want to play with them. It's like that freak violent kid showing up at the playground. Nobody wants to play with him. I'm not saying earlier souls games were not like this. Or that it's not working as intended. But personally I don't like it, and it definitely puts a lot of people off.

[@mlm82]

@@wyrdthings don't want u to do anything about it m8 :)

[@Dzimko-rc2io]

I just unintentionally watched a comedy. Invader thinks that people whom he invades care about his quality of life. You are killing quality of life of other people. You would see 5 times less ganks if people simply didn't despise invaders. And they despise them because invaders have ruined 20-30 times their fun while going through the game. And let's not forget that you are running meta invader build with quite a few cheated-in/duped items. I bet people you invade really enjoy a quality of their expirience Invaders just want noob-stomping experience otherwise they would sit on arena. I've tried invasions for a bit and that's exactly what it is

[@wyrdthings]

You didn't watch much of it if that's your interpretation. Thanks for the comment, I guess

[@Dzimko-rc2io]

@@wyrdthings I did watch full video and I agree with your concerns. I've seen the same few times when tried invading myself. I didn't try to interpret your video as well - your point was relatively clear anyway. Problem is your presentation is ridiculously one-sided - same as 95% of other videos from invaders. And that's why it's funny. Noobs know they can't win in fair fight against experienced twinkers and they also usually don't want to fight in the first place. So they either seat in obviously advantageous position or DC. You are basically complaining (ofc you will say it's not a complaint) on the situation you are creating yourself.

[@wyrdthings]

Oh, that's what I mean - I'm not talking about noob hosts trying to scrape an advantage - that's where you misunderstand me. I don't begrudge logical play. There can be dirty play and cheese aplenty in an invasion without a spite pit forming - and I fully acknowledge that invaders are equally likely to begin digging one as a host or a phantom. It's situations where mutual spite forms a kind of complex grief fight that I'm talking about. Ultimately, I'm not trying to blame anyone either. If I have a complaint, it's that the system itself actively encourages situations like this, and the more experienced a player is the higher capacity they have to form the conditions for a spite pit (no noob host exploits soft fogwalls or glitches, for example). Especially since the more experience you have, the more dirty plays you know of. Since being involved in a spite pit teaches you those exact dirty plays, it just ends up spreading. Personally, I'd love to see some changes to reign in some of these things - exploits, glitches, brazen twinking, OL phantoms, resummoning, TT abuse, and the like. If my perspective is one-sided, then that's probably because I don't co-op much, and when I do it's as a summon, not as a host. I can't pretend I speak for everyone, I hope you understand.

[@Dzimko-rc2io]

@@wyrdthings your second example about passive players (2.44) sounds exactly like noob who is afraid to leave the room. I don't think that you have excluded noob hosts in your video as well. So even if i have misunderstood it's because video doesn't reflect this point. Phantoms need to defend host. Passive play is usually a key for this as host probably has 20 vigor like a normal PvE player. It's not encouraged by game it's a simply logic. The best way to defend someone is to stick to that person closely even IRL This is the issue - invaders are ultimately the reason spite pits exist. You are trying to muddy the water but even your conclusion in the video is basically that invaders can stop this at any point of time. Host and phantoms don't really have control over it except DC (ungrateful to phantoms) or go die. Also in my head noobs are people inexperienced in pvp in this context. I know about fogwall even though I have never experienced it. Why? KZbin. On another hand you won't learn how to avoid panic rolling from the video

[@wyrdthings]

@@Dzimko-rc2io that's what I'm pointing out dude - just one action doesn't constitute a spite pit. That example is meant to be an example of how a spite pit BEGINS, not what it IS. What I'm talking about is a PILE of actions from all participants, and noob hosts are almost never game-literate enough to participate in that. I did explicitly say this in the video - a few dirty plays does not a spite pit make. Dedicated ganks are infinitely more likely to participate in spite pits in my experience. And yeah, I conclude that the invader has the greatest onus to end a spite pit or to not join in digging it - that's not saying they're the ones solely responsible for it. Saying 'invaders are why spite pits exist' doesn't make sense, unless you're outright ignoring what I mean by 'spite pit' and creating your own definition. Categorically, a spite pit cannot be formed by just one person. That's just a griefer. I'm just repeating what I said in the video now, though, so make if it what you will.

[@Kaiserredbeard]

I very, very dislike dishonest arrogant and prideful hosts thinking everything they do justifies the actions they take just because they are fighting „ bad red people“ where everything is morally black or white. Its probably the way most hosts look at invaders. This is an unwinnable situation wich creates only distain from both sides. Instead ill look at Invasion as an means to an end to get better at it. The harder people try ,the more honored i feel they would go so far to help me improve? Take the hatred from them and turn it into fuel for something positive. This is what i learnt in invasions about dealing with spite.

[@wyrdthings]

Honestly I can't fault anyone who runs straight up to me and fights me, y'know? At least, I can't fault them for their attitude. Too often is an invasion turned into an exercise in griefing though :/

[@sunnymederental3703]

that is what moghywn spear is for lol. bye bye room. the spite pit is ALWAYS A host problem, if i run away in an invasion against three people i have to get leverage of the environment. lets put blame where blame is due, they don't want to engage and they want to all flinch you to death, thanks to the stupid new patch that is totally a thing now,.

[@wyrdthings]

The room was just one example (consider the AFK farmers, soft fogwallers, OL summoners, etc.), but I do agree that where counterplay is still possible then counterplay should be attempted. Ultimately, though, there is a point where finding a new invasion is a more enjoyable use of my time lol

[@ShiniestMeatManKrieg]

Maybe when fromsoft actually can make good co-op that doesn't involve pvp, people will stop?

[@wyrdthings]

I mean, killing someone is certainly a way of making them not sick anymore, sure.