The WORST Part of Invading - Elden Ring PVP

[@iamamish]

As JeeNiNe says, "Welcome to Elden Ring, where it is never your turn to attack". The power of casting is probably my biggest issue with the game. A DS 3 content creator by the name of SillyDog made a video about casting builds in DS 3 and argued in essence, "there is no way to make casting viable for duels without making it ridiculously overpowered in a gank setting", and ER has done its best to prove this statement true. Casting is riskless as you said and it enables any player to pressure from anywhere, at any time. Everyone in ER is a caster too, since so many of the war ashes are spells. Spells cast too quickly, do too much damage (hp, or poise), have no risk, cost too little fp, track too well, have hitboxes that are too large, and are too easily spammed. Of course here I speak of the average case, there are always exceptions to this general rule. I've seen the most ridiculous frame traps with casting and the casting team doesn't even have to try to do it. Lots of people were upset about the relative weakness of casting in DS 3 but those of us in the know knew it would be bad if they were more powerful.

[@wyrdthings]

Honestly you've said it better than I ever could there

[@zwidowca1]

This is an enlightened take.

[@moonweavers3746]

This is basically the reason why i took a break from invasions and why the balance team for Elden ring is a joke. You have all of these spells with insane tracking that people can spam and forces the invader to roll and basically go completely passive in a gank and unless they get lucky they stand little chance against 2 casters and a melee player. And for some reason the balance team thought it was a good idea to nerf the BOG incantation but not scale down or touch any of the popular magic spells like comet/cometshard, rancorcall, star shower etc. I know im far from the best invader but its not even a skill issue at that point it’s basically un winnable no what build you’re using. And people wonder why mages are hated so much😭

[@wyrdthings]

It's a commonly cited breaking point for many, it seems

[@DS_DoggerX]

Woven teabagging everyone was definitely making people upset

[@woventheweird]

I figured if we're ganking we had to really play the role 😂

[@DS_DoggerX]

@@woventheweird fair enough lmao, did you get any hatemail?

[@woventheweird]

@@DS_DoggerX Not this session, hatemail is pretty rare on Steam compared to PSN, but most of it comes from playing arena 😁

[@abrahamrangel2326]

Each consecutive cast should make the fp cost increase more, even if you change spells, dont let the fp cost return to normal until the character returns to its iddle animation for a second

[@wyrdthings]

I actually rather like this idea

[@jaysuede2627]

Having invaded in Elden Ring and DS3, I think the vastly unpopular opinion I've come to over and over is... friendly fire. A Seed of Giants* that turns all characters' friendly fire on: all enemies can hurt all players, all players can hurt all players, etc.

[@beardfistthegoldenone7273]

That would fix and break so many things.

[@jaysuede2627]

@beardfistthegoldenone7273 Eh, even if that were the case it would never happen. It would be most dangerous for the lowest common denominator, even if it only lasted 15 seconds.

[@whywright2663]

Or buffed version of vow of silence

[@wyrdthings]

I've seen the suggestion that friendly phantoms should block projectiles but not take any damage or stagger from them, and I think that's a great idea for both the prevention of friendly phantoms griefing the Host and the management of missiles on the battlefield

[@avarice8153]

Peeve mentioned this back in DS3. Invaders having a Loyd's-esque Talisman that turns friendly fire on when it hits a player(s). I can see this working better in Elden Ring since Mohg's great rune exists and so many co-operators always swing wildly or shooting projectiles without a thought.

[@Al_Mighty8686]

The number one worst part of projectiles is the insane poise damage they do. Being able to stunlock/blender someone should only be possible if the host and phantoms are being aggressive *together.*

[@wyrdthings]

For sure. Even before 1.10 this was the case

[@timballisto]

Misc. Improvements - increased stamina cost when spammed - lower poise damage - rework tracking and auto-hit spells (i.e. gravity bolt/ thunderbolt) - lastly, projectiles should pop on teammates. So invaders can use pahntoms to bodyblock.

[@wyrdthings]

All of this sounds great tbh

[@WeeabooPocky]

better or lauder audio cues would be nice also to know when someone is casting a proyectile from far away.

[@Nobody32990]

If you are increasing stamina cost on successful casts same should be done with normal weapon attacks and aows. The issue here is ER, at its core, is designed around faster and spammier gameplay. So you'd have to completly re work antire parts of the game like boss behaviour.

[@Aaron6791ae]

Less damage too.

[@Letwoo67]

What is the appeal of teabaging some one who had no chance to win anyway?

[@nicholaslowry2366]

The same reason teabagging exists. To piss people off.

[@wyrdthings]

At the time I think he said it was "getting into character"

[@Aaron6791ae]

Just toxic maidless mage behavior.

[@nathreetimesnineequalstwen7172]

Jar Cannon > Mage 👍

[@vince_9643]

I have it on every strength build. The slap after every shot is satisfying alone

[@wyrdthings]

In satisfaction levels, at the very least

[@Aaron6791ae]

Mages can cast way faster than the jar cannon can shoot and reload.

[@dasindividuum2930]

Didn't you tell your friend that teabagging is bad manners. Agree with your point, though it's a problem we'll have to live with I guess. I've been doing low lvl invasions, I feel like there is less projectile use, also lower damage of course.

[@StoicScape219]

Also over level phantoms who take half your health with melee while you barely tickle their balls. I feel too underpowered at low level bc of them. I’m loving 80-90 range on my mean bleed build

[@woventheweird]

I mean, ganking is bad manners. The teabags were just the cherry on top 🤣

[@wyrdthings]

He took my feedback on board and threw it into the sea as soon as we left port, aye

[@Kaiser-Gate]

more spells should've been melee oriented like gavel of haima for example

[@wyrdthings]

based take

[@abrahamrangel2326]

Morgott's chaincasting between swords, spears and hammers should have been the mage gameplay instead of just doing pew pew of different colors

[@aetry]

Elden Ring patch team try not to buff magic challenge (impossible)

[@wyrdthings]

Literally true though

[@thevikingofhardcheese4080]

I’d heard that in ancient warfare there were basically 3 types of warriors: heavy infantry, projectile warriors and mounted cavalry. Each one of these balanced each other out - heavy infantry with their polearms could take down cavalry, projectile warriors could take down heavy infantry and cavalry could take down projectile warriors- not only because they were two swift for the archer to take proper aim but also as with the medieval period knightly armour was virtually utterly superior to arrow fire! Mages are projectile warriors and seeing as armour doesn’t do much against magic - we’re basically fucked. The gnomes are winning!

[@themanwholaughs9194]

Bolt of Gransax guy in the beginning is the perfect answer to this type of low effort/high success gank. You either prepare a pocket nuke or be prepared to be chased down. He probably sized you guys in an instant (putting YT in anyone's name is also a trigger for to be prepared to dirty one's hands, since most of the time you can assume you're about to be in a montage if you lose). Some people are saying unseen form. It's a solid defense if you can spare the stats. There's a good physick combo that uses that Whorl that converts elemental damage to health and the hyper armor one for about 30-45 seconds of mage immunity, but you gotta use it to make a kill.

[@wyrdthings]

You're 100% right about Gransax guy - and that's horrendously depressing. It means that the way to successfully win a certain kind of invasion is to essentially avoid the core mechanics of the game

[@Jpgator1214]

The only solution I have is, and ots something ive been saying. FromSoftware needs scale up HP. This holds true for PvP and PvE. 1900 at 60 vigor is too low. Given how much damage everything after Leyndell does. And how much damage spells and AoW's do. 1900 is too low. I don't know the exact number it should be. I'm not a game dev either. But i think starting there would at least make it feel like 1 swift Glintstone shard didn't do a third of heath bar.

[@undefinedvariable8085]

I'd say do it the other way around. Nerf the damage and you won't need to hike the HP. The other issue is the sheer scope of this game and the unsynchronized soft caps. Most bosses can still 2 - 3 shot you at 60 vig with buffs stacked. FromSoft clearly has a late game scaling issue. And a damage scaling issue in general. Just a general damage reduction across the board could ameliorate a lot of these issues.

[@polskipl1974]

I agree they should simply do another general damage nerf. Cuz the meta levels don’t mean much anymore. You can have 80 cap in a skill point at any “meta level” but nerfing the damage like they did before with aow in the previous patch would probably solve a lot of problems

[@maliciousmudkip3656]

@@undefinedvariable8085 I think raising base resistances would be an easier solution from the dev's perspective. But I agree with your reasoning.

[@wyrdthings]

There's certainly an argument to be had around damage values, that';s for sure

[@aninnocentbystander119]

Maybe certain spells could be re-worked to function like Bow and Arrows, a by all accounts, balanced(?) part of the game already. Instead of tracking the target, it fires straight toward them from a lock-on, or you can enter manual aim and pew pew from there. Headshots could function similarly. Some tweaking might be necessary to distinguish it from bow and arrow, but this removes the part where the game plays itself for you, and adds a component of player skill. Wave of pi- sorry, Gold, similar AoE ashes, and the dragon breaths are a different beast but like another head from the same body. They fall into the problem of a massive AOE that can a. kill you by themselves b. are difficult to escape even if you know it’s coming, c. Stagger You!!! and d. Deny access to a very large area. Assuming you survive and get away, combat still comes to a standstill. They have counters but only if the user is careless. Special mention to Rot breath that inflicts Scarlet Rot that is super poison only curable by either a *limited resource* or an incantation, which not all builds would have access to, or on their person. Removing stagger from these is a pretty good start. Drastically Decreased damage on the really big ones is another. Rot needs farmable/buyable bolas.

[@wyrdthings]

This is a pretty good breakdown - certainly I'd be happy to see a bit more manual skill expression in the sorcery lines as well

[@likelyawizard]

As a wholesome magic enjoyer, I'm so sad how toxic these builds can be :(

[@stol3nexe901]

You know what you’re doing filthy mage

[@likelyawizard]

@@stol3nexe901 I'm the mage that tries to keep in check what Wyrd and Weird are demonstrating. I put away the spells for melee players except a few little precision casts 👍

[@wyrdthings]

I've seen many mages say the same and it's tragic to hear. Y'all have my sympathy, truly. I know how much hate you get because of it.

[@Legiion513]

Concealing veil talisman + greatbow with rain of arrows is great for approaching projectile shitters and taking one of them out potentially.

[@undefinedvariable8085]

You could honestly consider greatbow with rain of arrows part of the range problem being raised here. Especially in terms of the "risk vs reward" and "effortless pressure" points mentioned. And the lock on without direct line of sight is just crazy. On top of that; hefty damage and stagger.

[@Legiion513]

@@undefinedvariable8085 I disagree for the most part. RoA has a long, punishable windup time. It's also insanely easy to dodge even if you don't know it's coming. All you really need is to be moving. That's why you almost never see it in ganks.

[@wyrdthings]

While you're right, the thing that this solution shares with the other solutions I've heard is that it's a solution that only works in certain environments, and is profoundly un-engaging to play and play with. It's just trench warfare at that point :/

[@Thereisnogreatersword]

The best souls pvp game will be one where projectiles are minimalised and mages are encouraged to fight with something that isnt spam, with limited range.

[@Thereisnogreatersword]

@arl.2798 all projectiles aint bad, most are. the ones that have either no windup or no cooldown are usually the offenders, look at comet, fuck all cast time and fuck all cooldown once cast

[@wyrdthings]

yes

[@Nobody32990]

@arl.2798 so go play Exanima.

[@StoicScape219]

It’s all balanced because Timmy No-Thumbs has to be able to beat the game without basic fundamentals so he can tell his friends and pretend like he’s a souls player. Pleasing him and his army of shitters lines FROM’s pockets better

[@kameron6994]

😂😂😂😂

[@wyrdthings]

VERY harsh take but not an unfounded one by any means

[@verapzer]

Hi, unrelated to the video, could you possibly share the some of the character sliders of your Gobelin, mainly the skin color but getting the skin features and body settings would also be a blessing, ive been struggling to recreate it lol

[@wyrdthings]

I... hadn't ever considered it, but sure!

[@verapzer]

Thx man, i found ur channel a few months ago and you have become my favorite elden ring pvp youtuber, keep up the good work! :)

[@MunsTheFool]

This is a great video, man. You just verbalized perfectly something that's been frustrating me about the invasions in this game since launch, which has always made it feel profoundly unfair to me to the point where i just immediately stopped playing invasions which i'd put countless hours in the previous souls-games. In DS3, the projectiles probably didn't reach the same problematic heights because the playing field was typically just a bit more even for an invader, and maybe the spells just sucked a bit more with the lack of variety, having to stop to cast etc. It's a real shame i think, i was really looking forward to elden ring and loving its PVP, but it's just had so many huge issues like these since launch.. Well, luckily there's other things in life than invasions in videogames. And Armored Core. :) Hope you manage to still enjoy the game nonetheless, you got yourself a new subscriber!

[@wyrdthings]

Aw thanks my man! It's been a favorite grumbletopic for me since launch too, but by any large I just have to live with it for now. I'm not exactly expecting much, but the occasional truly fun invasion usually makes the bad ones worth it :)

[@undefinedvariable8085]

There's also "Unseen Form" you could consider as a solution, and with it's low FP cost, INT requirement and 30 sec duration it's more than viable for most builds and situations. Borderline exploitative against pure caster builds with no AOE or free aim/melee fallbacks.

[@gankspanker4204]

Unseen form by itself dies not prevent lock on. You must also use the Assassin's gambit AoW. That ash can't go on every weapon, and using both if those skills takes time. Sure it's great if you can cast both of them and then get a surprise attack on a group, but its also easily countered by r1 mashing or free aiming. I understand that you are suggesting to use it against clueless gankers, but a lot of gankers aren't as clueless as you may think

[@undefinedvariable8085]

@@gankspanker4204 Thanks for clarifying on the Assassin's Gambit AoW. It can be used on most (read: enough) weapons, so that's really not an issue. Just keep a dagger ready to hard swap to like most people do with a BHStepping thrusting sword or parry shield. Its effect does not cancel out when you switch weapons and it'll last for 30 sec as well. As far as situation goes, any suggestion is situational really. You're always going to need to strive for those situations where you can leverage them. Invaders often have to find cover to employ buffs and recover. You'll have plenty of time to cast them both if you can do that. And if you can, what it gives you is an opportunity to close the distance and shut down the projectile pressure. Of course you're still going to need to deal with melee but that's fine and it's where you want to bring it back to. R1 mashing is always a tactic, there's ways to deal with that, and free aiming spells and incantations that have no AOE is so ineffective you'd just be throwing away FP points and opening yourself up for punishment. TLDR: so in general, the strategy being suggested is to shut down projectile spam long enough for you to get a chance to get in there and do what you would do if there was no projectile spam.

[@wyrdthings]

It's a stopgap at best, but it does work for sure

[@OnlyWaifuYT]

Your friend teabagging every invader made this really hard to watch lol

[@wyrdthings]

If it's any consolation he died exactly twice and at least one of these times he got a good ol' bagging in return lol I didn't intervene. Nature was healing.

[@UrVidaGameMum]

Excellent video, thank you for pointing this shit out.

[@redninja8006]

I Agree, I invaded into a 2 player gank invasion yesterday, and the mage just casted spells after each time I rolled to doge the previous spell while the str build just roll caught me. It was brutally hard to fight. I tried to just use endure with claws and out damage the str guy, but the mage punished so easily then the str dude just had to roll catch me once between the spell spam and I was dead.

[@undefinedvariable8085]

RIP. The next Mimic Grace I drop will be in your memory.

[@masteriw]

2 player gank?

[@servine1212]

​@@masteriwEither they were taunters tongued, or they summoned him and just won fighting 2 v 1

[@wyrdthings]

We were TT'd aye. People rarely lasted long enough to get teammates

[@AkosKovacs.Author.Musician]

It might be not a complete solution to it, in actuality, but a cooldown timer would mitigate the issue. Give dragon breaths an 8 or 10 second timer to use them again, for example. The other thing that would help is unnerf the defensive incants, and also unnerf poise.

[@wyrdthings]

GOD I want the old Barrier of Gold back and Vow of Silence

[@Lancestar-Knight]

I quit ER because of how braindead magic spam and some incantations are.

[@wyrdthings]

A story I've heard all too many times

[@thevikingofhardcheese4080]

Stars of ruin used to be essentially a machine gun that was guaranteed to hit. I’ve now found that I can dodge it without taking a single hit at a distance. Yet I was in the arena today and was approaching the mage and he fired SOR again and amazingly I got hit! It was at closer range and so perhaps dodging forward was the thing to do rather than dodging from side to side. One thing I have noticed is that Star Shower is the only spell I can’t dodge and the shape of the projectile is very similar to that of SOR at closer range so mabye (and I could be wrong here) that is the reason for my being hit with the way the multiple projectiles come out.

[@wyrdthings]

god I still get SoR 'Nam flashbacks

[@bellmonk]

while highlighting one of the worst problems in the game you’ve also written the Bible on ganking. seriously though, great vid

[@wyrdthings]

Thanks my dude :)

[@zwidowca1]

Late to the party but... the biggest problem is zoning. If you cannot ever approach your target, while a melee ganker chases you non stop, then you will never win. You are not in range, so you deal no damage. Winning against this usually reqires chugging a physyk with crystalwhorl tear. Chug, suicide charge the mages and then deal with melee. If you can kill the ranged spammers, you can usually kill the melee as well. Problems start when gankers turn out to actually be good at pvp, then the situation is FUBAR and you should just abandon the invasion...

[@wyrdthings]

Well said

[@zwidowca1]

@@wyrdthings I changed my mind about meta level tho. 137-150 is almost effing impossible to win against ganking mages. The gankers have just too much of a stat advantage with overleveled phantoms. And even if you chug the crystalwhorl tear physyk, you still get absolutely obliterated poise/stagger wise by spell spam.

[@noot_er]

Seeing this pretty late, but FS has actually demonstrated they are willing and able to change things like stun over a distance with moonveil, which was sadly reversed in 1.10. The biggest offender for me are comet, swift glintstone pebble and phalanx. Adding recovery for chainable projectiles, damage falloff over a distance and poise damage falloff would dampen a lot of the problems. Things like pebble and moonveil should straight up do less damage. While I don't enjoy casters, I understand that having fast attacks is essential if you ever want to make a full caster dueling build and this concept of an "active bubble" could remedy it. Would it be completely fair? No. Is the current state ridiculous 2 years post release and doesn't teach the casual player anything good? Yes.

[@OceanicManiac]

Cooldown + DS1/DS2 limited spell/AoW uses would probably be the best way to fix projectile spam. No use restoring items either.

[@pyrowithoutgoggles1610]

Honestly, I think all the spells and projectiles like that shouldn't have had any ability to stun you unless its a headshot, it would make a lot more sense for only specific spells to deal high poise damage like the bestial incantations or gravity sorceries.

[@wyrdthings]

The stun is for sure the most problematic thing as of 1.10

[@nlm7033]

Ironically projectiles feel like the go faster and have better tracking in ER than they do AC. Me hitting a Plasma shot from further than 125m? Impossible. Me hitting that co-oper around the corner with a curve shot Comet? Hold my beer.

[@wyrdthings]

You thought that too huh? I think it's because we don't have the same freedom of movement in ER

[@rtimedwnhere8136]

We just need a much better counter than carian retaliation. Something that wrecks magic spam.

[@wyrdthings]

Honestly I'd settle for a better countermeasure that doesn't lock me in place, yeah

[@joshzuker8308]

Erdtree greatshield is a lot of fun but you can still get overwhelmed.

[@BorosLegionnaire]

I'm glad someone finally called out casters for how cheap it really is across the board for invasions

[@undefinedvariable8085]

They've been getting called out in stream chats and subreddits for a very long time now. It's a well known frustration.

[@wyrdthings]

As Undefined said, my voice is but one of thousands, i am sure lol :P

[@UncleGael1999]

Good stuff Wyrd. i liked how you showcased it from a gankers perspective

[@wyrdthings]

Hahaha thanks man :P I figured, what better perspective is there?

[@pitshoster401]

Miyazaki NEEDS to see this video

[@TheCovertSnowOwl]

I think the only reliable hard punisher of magic spam is the erdtree shield, which bounces magic projectiles back at the caster for a ton of damage. We just need more mage hunter items like this to discourage people from just relying on magic only.

[@kameron6994]

but don’t you have to time it right? i’ve seen ppl send stuff back while still taking damage

[@gankspanker4204]

I can't use it on a dex build, why is it that the best Mage counter is restricted to strength builds

[@wyrdthings]

Honestly, it's not even a counter. Most rapid-fire spells will lock you in position and force you to take chip damage even if you do reflect a spell, and spells have such low recovery that the caster can easily dodge the reflection if they're not completely brain-dead

[@Dravianpn02]

Dark souls 3 pvp shits all over Elden Ring invasion pvp. Having covenants provided incentive and high interaction because of covenant items and all the varied invasion types youd get from fight clubs to messing around to all out war. Now its nothing but gank after gank. 5 out of the 7 endings are the exact same. Theres no incentive with what you gain besides what you can get in one run in ER versus new/upgraded and covenant items from ds1, 2 and 3.

[@wyrdthings]

Unfortunately I agree completely

[@hobosorcerer]

This is why, as a mage, I prefer to duel. Using projectiles for setups, mixups & combos is much more satisfying than spamming at an invader.

[@wyrdthings]

Honestly, I agree. I'd far sooner play with the Carian sword spells, Gavel, and Cannon than the pew-pews. It's just so much more fun

[@GlaiveMistress]

Didn't expect filthy ganker gameplay 😳

[@isaach8289]

noticed ur posting a bit less so turned notifs on, excited for the future

[@marble228]

Good video, loved listening to it

[@wyrdthings]

Thankyou my man :)

[@valentai_777]

There really needs to be a status effect that tanks FP when procced. I’m not sure how the specifics would work, but it would be the ultimate anti gank without really being intrusive into duels, since it likely wouldn’t be that optimal in the Arenas. This would also give From a nice chance to make some underutilized status effects more appealing. Like Sleep and madness. Which are op now, but could be reworked towards being a legitimate too for duels and ganks.

[@wyrdthings]

Technically, there is! Both Sleep and Madness drain FP, but the problem isn't the presence of FP, sadly. Introducing a solution that attacks FP bars will impact the non-casters worse than the casters, after all. :( Ultimately, the flaws are fundamental. many spells, incantations, and Ashes would need complete re-works to avoid the spam-meta we currently have :/

[@valentai_777]

@@wyrdthings I think for most melee players, fp isn’t something they have to rely on as heavily. And most gankers likely wouldn’t even use it, since it really wouldn’t be opt for them. But really what I mean is that they need to include more sleep and madness weapons. That are more geared towards that secondary effect rather than just straight up disabling a player for a whole seconds

[@elijahmontgomery4146]

I have a build that 1 shots with night comet, mines chilling at 168, but you can do the same thing at meta level while still having 60 vigor. You could make a low level twink that sacrifices all health for Int and probably 1 shot within the 25-45 range. Magic in general, primarily sorceries, are pretty busted.

[@wyrdthings]

Yeah, buffstacking is at its most absurd when paired with sorceries imho

[@Dravianpn02]

Madness sniping was the absolute worst.

[@wyrdthings]

Those were the dark times

[@darrylwilliams7410]

That's why I do low level PVP some spells I just don't even want to see some spells. You know what I wish? I could summon someone into my world and then invade...

[@wyrdthings]

Yeah same. But then the OL phantoms appear...

[@darrylwilliams7410]

TIME OUT you just summoned 2 homies and now the blue just showed up...... and there is a 4v1 have fun....

[@thevikingofhardcheese4080]

I believe the true mages in this game are the battle-mages. Those mages that are also skilled melee fighters. When you have an int dex battle-mage that can deal damage just as easily from close quarters as well as long distance you have someone that as you say is very oppressive and if they are skilled enough they essentially can simply decide when the fight ends.

[@sighyawn6378]

casting should cost a butt load of stamina tbh. especially on charged spells. and i dont think projectiles should do much if any poise damage. those things are bigger issues than the damage imo.

[@sighyawn6378]

@@arl.2798 that would require a whole new mechanic for fromsoft to balance when stamina is already supposed to stop action spamming. DS1 magic system used limited casts that you would run out of until you rested at bonfire. theyre not going to reimplement that.

[@wyrdthings]

I like this idea too

[@servine1212]

They 100% should so some poise damage, perhaps reduced. You have a ton of ways to reduce/negate magic damage, being able to freely bulldoze their spells with no effort is overtuning.

[@jackdoe663]

I love the game but I fucking despise the magic. I just block any loser who spams magic because I fucking refuse to play against it. They are not the least bit skilful, they are just abusing an overpowered mechanic. I put two points into faith today so I could try out the erdtree great shield in the coliseum against mages and it’s not even worth using because 1) you have to execute the timing perfectly to reflect the spell back at the mage and 2) even if you do successfully reflect it, it is very easily dodged. Not a single spell I reflected back actually hit the caster. And bows aren’t any good either because the arrows fly in a straight line wherever you fired whereas magic projectiles hone in on you. And don’t even think about manually aiming, that’d just make you a sitting duck for those homing magic missiles.

[@wyrdthings]

Yeah pretty much my experience in a nutshell ngl

[@sdfsdfsdfsdfsdfsdf3053]

All you said is not projectiles problem(except tracking ofc) but more mana vs charges problem. And probably separation pve balance from pvp balance where no resist works.

[@wyrdthings]

You could look at it that way true

[@tecnicofwars]

They can't balance projectiles for pvp without changing its use in pve, hard. I don't think they will do that even in the DLC. And then you have to find the way to balance projectiles without making them useless. I don't have much hope.

[@wyrdthings]

While I think you're right, I'd actually WELCOME the spells' use in pve being changed. Forcing mages to actually engage with spacing instead of the depressing stuff you see casters do in bossfights would only improve the game. There are a lot of balanced projectiles that are effective too - it's just a specific class of them that isn't

[@coldfire2753]

Really good video

[@wyrdthings]

Thanks my man

[@shanethebarbarian8512]

I feel like the best way to balance the projectiles is to have it where only a select few can do stun you. Ancient Death Rancor for example is a beast solely for the fact that it can stun you into an oblivion and the same goes for death ritual spears. I'd rather have it where spells and skills like that don't do any sort of poise break or stun you and instead just do a decent amount of damage. It would also probably help to have the damage for some projectiles be reduced in PVP, not to a point where projectiles become absolutely terrible but balanced enough so that they can still be good in PVP without having them be incredibly overpowered.

[@wyrdthings]

The stun has definitely become the biggest problem in 1.10, that's for sure

[@Nobody32990]

From, for the love of God, give the int builds something more then 2 new melee spells and 50 shades of magic missile.

[@timothymarktrinidad5385]

sadly this is one of the symptoms of the general dmg nerf (or def increase) the pvp modifier has done to ER combat. as it stood in previous patches before the change, you could challenge a mage to trade. his spells casted slower, your weapons hit faster and harder relative to cast time and you could kill him should he stand to trade within 3-4 seconds enough time to get hit by 1 really damaging spell from the phantom/host but not enough to die. but because people who in my opinion don't even understand DS3 and yet want ER to be DS4 instead complained constantly, forced FS to lower damage across the board, in my opinion release dmg at least r1/r2 on most weapons were perfect and only needed to nerf speed on certain PS movesets, dmg nerf or cap buff stacking on spells and AOW. this has also lead to the dumbing down of the player base by a great degree as since everything now does less damage, most players don't think about mitigating with items or spells. a great degree of blame here can be placed on FS's feet due to the lack of availability of materials to craft elemental resistance items but far greater reason is the pvp modifier as at the start everyone used crab or items/faith buffs but now rarely ever see it. there are many other things the dmg nerf has touched that has in my opinion drastically negatively impacted combat but the most drastic in regards to invasions (i personally mostly arena but i still do coop) is the playstyle of invaders. due the fact that they cannot ever hope to fight in open combat against 2-3 players as they cannot even the odds by trading into for example a mage, creating a 1v1 or even 1v2 afterwards, this leads the invader to play almost entirely passive, the "combat stoppage" you called. i see this time and time again invaders running marathons through the level to either setup a gravity assist or to elite mobs to help deal with the numbers which may be what FS wants but rarely feels skillful and definitely not a fun experience for anyone. sadly without the tools to challenge a gank in open combat this playstyle will remain.

[@wyrdthings]

Yeah, there was certainly a big contribution to this problem from the asymmetry of the damage nerf tbh. I think a longer TTK is great, but not if it's inflicted unevenly :/

[@timothymarktrinidad5385]

@@wyrdthings in my opinion the problem was that it was implemented evenly. Rather than how balancing is done which is hammering down the nail that stands out they cut everything at the knees. This lead to dual naginatas still being overpowered, buff stacking standing head and shoulders above everything else. So the upper tier of viable weapons/spells/builds/playstyles stayed competitive but has made lower and middle tiers even worse because they lacked the burst and now needs more hits to get a kill. Which is why you now only see the top meta weapons especially on invaders. PSSS, PSS, PSGS, TS, storm axe, jar cannon, rain of arrows AOW, and if they’re feeling cheeky a GS. Your regular ol’ mace/axe/ss/spear/dagger/flail/cs just won’t hold out in open combat (slower weapons fairing even worse) especially when these weapons now require about 6-8 hits for a kill (fyi ds3 only need 5 but due to the true hit combo realistically need only 2-3) everyone praises ds3 balancing but forget how almost nearly every weapon class could delete 40-90% of your hp and in some cases 100% that was what made ganks squads fightable. I’m sure everyone has their own opinion and miracle cure to ER pvp but in my opinion the pvp modifier was the worst change so far

[@jamesg7456]

I’d suggest crimsonwhorl bubble tear and quickly try to take out one of the mages.

[@wyrdthings]

Yeah, it's a hail-mary play at best, but it's something.

[@jarrrr1347]

Same problem even after all the patches, I’ve been invading at 150 for a while and the spam was atrocious. Made me take a break from invading, thinking about retrying at RL90 don’t know what weapon level to use tho.

[@wyrdthings]

That's the truth of it :/ RL80 would be perfect if it weren't for the OL phantoms

[@moneygrowslikegrass]

Honestly having a ranged option this strong in a game that is mainly based around melee combat is just ridiculous. It's literally fighting an assault rifle/rocket launcher with a big knife. I believe that the power of spells should be just slightly higher than that of bows/crossbows. I don't have a problem with people playing PvE however they want, but in PvP spells definitely need some major changes. I imagine that something like worse tracking when locked onto a player and lower damage and poise damage would do the trick.

[@wyrdthings]

For real - you put it perfectly. I'd at least have expected the ability to craft some "missile-countermeasures" consumable item if they were gonna make it like this

[@darkbatman-vk4tw]

The hole video is just telling you to play prisoner

[@wyrdthings]

it's a sorry state of affairs

[@Moonveil69]

Hopefully all the ranged players have gone to AC 6 🤣

[@wyrdthings]

It sounds like it lol

[@InvaderTroy]

oh boy. if you think projectile spam is an issue in this game, you do not wanna see the state of armored core right now

[@wyrdthings]

I have, and you may notice that I am posting nothing related to its PVP at all lol :P

[@Buddhoff]

i got back to ds3 for that alone and its been a blast tbh i sincerly hope they will fix that but i doubt it i hope im wrong

[@wyrdthings]

I doubt they'll fix anything ever, but it's still a good time, for sure :)

[@ethansam3443]

Miss you, Wyrd. Hope you’re doing okay, brother. Sending good vibes from Jordan 🇯🇴

[@wyrdthings]

Thanks my man, all going well, but still working hard lol. Fingers crossed it eases up soon

[@TheHogfatherInvades]

This is my favorite part of invading. The cover shooter of all time!

[@wyrdthings]

Elden Ring is my favorite Call of Duty game

[@Invaders_Unite]

Hey man, I have no idea why KZbin unsubscribed me from your channel. Kinda strange. I just realized I hadn't seen one of your videos in a while. Resubscribed for sure. Hope you're well.

[@wyrdthings]

YT can be weird like that :/ Thanks my dude

[@Invaders_Unite]

@@wyrdthings I know ever since I got my yt off the ground it seems like KZbin will just get rid of a subs or too randomly. It's like damn I only got 50 and your gonna rob me of two lol

[@chanceburk4852]

I know you’re using it as an example to show how ridiculous it is but using the exact playstyle you’re complaining about on random invaders kind of undercuts everything you’re saying.

[@wyrdthings]

It served the purpose I needed, at least. It's one thing to say that projectiles are a problem, it's another thing to show why. I'd have felt lacking if I didn't at least include enough examples to establish a trend. I can understand not liking it - it's not a playstyle I'm advocating - but it shouldn't undercut anything.

[@undefinedvariable8085]

It's either nerfs or more contingencies to employ (e.g.: deflectors, temporary cover, etc.). I don't think there's any other feasible solution if you're looking for one at this point. Nerfs seem like the simplest solution but that's just a slippery slope in disguise. You start going down it and almost everything has to be nerfed. And we come around to the fundamental issue again of balance in a game with scope so broad you'll inevitably be power creeping into some other domain or meta. Damage and casting speed nerfs, stamina and FP cost inflation, range reductions or damage mitigation over distance, passive poise nerfs (I'm looking at a suspect line-up of weapon arts here), etc. Some things need these things. But not at the risk of making almost all casting obsolete either (especially for pure caster builds). Any amount of nerfing will still never be enough for some people and too much for others. So what could be considered balanced in this case and how would we measure that? What would a benchmark for that look like so that it doesn't just look like subjective perspective?

[@luxinterior54]

I get the feeling that from patches 1.01 - 1.09, the devs were meticulously pruning all the problematic stuff the community was complaining about at the given time. With 1.10, they finally threw their hands up and said, "Here ya go, you monsters. Everyone gets a free hit, but now they can blast you into the ionosphere with all the all stuff we so carefully buffed out these last 16 months." 😂

[@sdfsdfsdfsdfsdfsdf3053]

@@luxinterior54 from start to present they're slowly turning elden ring pvp to shitty fighting.

[@wyrdthings]

Honestly the ability to deploy some kind of cover or a consumable that acts like a countermeasure would revolutionize the whole deal

[@sdfsdfsdfsdfsdfsdf3053]

@@wyrdthings the darkness sorcery.

[@Cosmic-Sorceress-17]

I'm going to be honest, I was expecting another "All mages are bad, remove magic from the game, faith and strength are better, never let mages play" pile of nonsense, but you cover this in the best way. I am glad magic is as strong as it is, you can easily due a pure castor solo if you're careful. Ganks however... Once more, another reason why I don't invade or see the appeal to invading in a gank situation. You can't balance ganks, so I don't even bother with them. It's even harder if you're a solo castor like myself: people just spam swift dart or lightning spear and I can't play the game. Even one on one it's a huge issue and I've see too many sweaty mages who just spam swift shard to keep me from casting. The issue is how many spells are viable in PvP, not in magic itself. If we had more varied spells like Founding Rain, Comet Azur, and Crystal Torrent being viable, people would use them more. Maybe having Founding Rain appear over an enemy's head instead of in front of you, reduce the damn slots needed on Azur and allow limited ability to move the beam, and give Crystal Torrent more consistent hits at long range. It truly saddens me how people just go about making the hatred of magic and mages worse and I'm glad you mentioned the ashes of war and incantations too. Too many people just want me gone and will not let me play.

[@wyrdthings]

You make excellent points - and yeah, sorcerers catch the flak for every other projectile spammer, and it ain't right.

[@Cosmic-Sorceress-17]

@@wyrdthings Absolutely! It's ridiculous and I've seen it go on for far too long: mages simultaneously being considered the worst thing about the game while also being the most easily and frequently bullied in PvP. I hope in some way this attitude towards magic can be phased out, because it just makes PvP even worse.

[@wyrdthings]

@@Cosmic-Sorceress-17 I feel like it'll only recede once the root problem has been fixed, unfortunately. Even without personal hatred of mages, targeting them first with the cheesiest option available is basically mandatory if you want to stand a chance in invasions. It just breeds spite pits.

[@Cosmic-Sorceress-17]

@@wyrdthings Absolutely: and people have no excuse to cheese a mage playing solo. I do truly hope the root problems can be properly addressed some day: I still feel properly balancing ganks, especially with the ideal expansions to magic I have in mind, is impossible. But at least solo play can become more enjoyable for everyone if we work on improving people's attitudes as a whole. I've wanted to do my own thing for awhile: a player made covenant specifically for mages and spellblades, based on the idea of a Raya Lucaria Resurgence shown in the network test. I don't have the social ability to make it happen though... and even if I did I'm not sure how it would help things. But it's a neat idea I think.

[@navnishbhardwaj3436]

Bro chase had a good idea. Lot of one shot builds lot of combos or blenders but if everyone can use runes everybody will have lot of health and dragon spells or spells u listed here won’t one shot. So be phantom or invader they should have ability to be hosts health or atleast invaders if not phantoms or discustingg blues

[@undefinedvariable8085]

Blues are just reds for reds. Think about it.

[@wyrdthings]

I still love that idea. It'd mean the Great-Rune system would actually mean something

[@JuniYT]

To fix the invading experience as an invader all they have to do is go back to the dark souls 3 coop system literally

[@wyrdthings]

While I hate to be That Guy Who's Saying It Should Just Be Like DS3... ... yeah you're not wrong lol

[@JuniYT]

@@wyrdthings Realistically having the same amount of invaders as the phantoms and host would be ideal for leveling out the playing field… But I suppose everyone is entitled to their opinion…

[@wyrdthings]

every 2v2 I've been a part of - excluding dedicated ganks - has been an absolute curb-stomp for the invading side tbh. I do think Hosts need SOME advantage - it just shouldn't be an advantage that gankers can abuse so easily

[@JuniYT]

@@wyrdthings Yeah that’s why I feel like DS3 summoning system was fire… The more phantoms you wanted the more you ran the risk of getting invaded…

[@P4nt3ra4life]

Why the excessive Teabags? Lol

[@wyrdthings]

"getting into character" apparently

[@P4nt3ra4life]

@@wyrdthings lol I didn’t know whether to hate or say “well done” on the shitter cosplay 😂

[@wyrdthings]

@@P4nt3ra4life I would accept both lol

[@smashnetwork6222]

Молодец хорошо играешь. Удачи тебе с просмотрам и зрителями

[@wyrdthings]

Спасибо! Я рад, что тебе понравилось :)

[@beardfistthegoldenone7273]

Roll catch exploit. (Real) (Insane) nerf bobos of cheese

[@wyrdthings]

dishonest spacing exploiter uses rollcatch glitch (real!!)

[@doomlegacy]

Friendly Fire for the host! + longer cast animation / increased cooldown

[@favorilerification]

Giant flame take the isnt a problem then. Most spells are easy to dodge and isnt hard to stop. IN a gang environment anything is op. Accept that.

[@wyrdthings]

If you'd watched the video, you'd know I wasn't talking about Giantsflame Take Thee at all. And no, I do not accept such a blatant falsehood.

[@392Hemi-x3]

the solution is to not nerf the defense incants. Old BOG and it's not as toxic.

[@wyrdthings]

Honestly yeah BoG should not have been nerfed before the magic damage

[@TheDevourerOfGods]

I really don't mind sorceries in duels. But meta level mage ganks are so unfair. You've got to be very well prepared to stand a chance. Probably the best defensive Ash of War that I can think of is Bloodhound Step to engage/disengage. But again, that's only if you have it equipped on a good weapon. You're most likely gonna use Carian Retaliation, and even that isn't perfect.

[@GodfreyEnjoyer1]

Agree and disagree, anything gets more annoying if you face multiple people doing it. But I rather take 3 full mages than 3 people with double spears or lances chasing me down the hill. In all of my invasions, I rarely struggled against mages, but double spears and lances are broken. They are already strong by their own, and now imagine 3 people using it and chasing you down. Things would be so much more easy if we could have 3 vs 3 or imagine 4 vs 4, that would be soo damn nice. What this game needs are invasion Covenants.

[@TheDevourerOfGods]

@@GodfreyEnjoyer1 good point. Melee can be more annoying than spells at times.

[@wyrdthings]

Yeah, that's the weirdest part - the same problem spells are nearly useless in duels (with one or two exceptions), but instantly become incredibly dangerous in invasions. There's no middle ground at all

[@servine1212]

​@@GodfreyEnjoyer1This guy gets it.

[@Nobody32990]

@@TheDevourerOfGods it also has no additional costs. Powerstancing lances and spamming crouch poke does not even required additional stat investment like in DS2.

[@GodfreyEnjoyer1]

Any meta-wise build such as double lance, spears, ss or UGS with frost is far worse to fight. I never was annoyed by mages, all you have to do is dodge, which sounds like "git gud" but this is really the case. Magic can get annoying if you face 3 people spam this at you but as i said before I rather fight 3 mages than 3 with double spears or Lance. I am a Strength user myself and I never had huge issues with mages either as an invader or in high PvP battles in the Arena or small tourneys. I can understand the frustration people face at first but objectively speaking this is just wrong. The spells are easily avoidable if you know how to dodge.

[@undefinedvariable8085]

I'd much rather take on a few squishy mages than some try-hard metas. But saying that everything in this video is wrong objectively speaking I think is just a subjective take in the end.

[@quesomurda]

if you can’t fight against some of the slowest weapons in the game which also got seriously nerfed by 1.10 then you have a major skill issue, a team of projectile spammers is way worse than three people using psgs

[@GodfreyEnjoyer1]

@@quesomurda Projectile spam is not worse or good, it is simple to avoid. UGS got pretty much a passive buff since 1.10, I can highly recommend you to watch some top-tier duelists, or maybe play with some people who actually are good at the game and not meme PvP duelists with shitty builds. Elden ring has plenty of PvP Discord servers where you can meet some very good players. As I mentioned in my comment above I am a Strength user; I also play UGS and they are VERY viable in the current meta. double spears, lances, and double Nagakiba are top tier and UGS are extremely good as well, especially with the 1.10 update. You are either playing the wrong game or you do not play at all.

[@quesomurda]

@@GodfreyEnjoyer1 dawg, im one of the top xbox ladder players, i’ve beaten some of the best pc players, i fight against this shit every single day in fc, psgs got a hard nerf, ugs kiba sham are extremely good now your not wrong, but you can’t poise trade with psgs, spear talisman doesn’t give enough counter dmg in psgs to trade with anything at all, pss has always been the best setup in the game which is exactly why it’s banned in tourneys, mean while on my 80 int pure caster even if i have one person with me spamming spells i can two shot someone with two comet true combo, projectiles are way worse especially since every one staggers

[@VividFizzy]

You can’t fight UGS? Lol

[@marisa_nyaa]

Dishonest mage gameplay

[@wyrdthings]

yes

[@rabidcabbage7230]

I think successive magic, either from the caster or you being hit do less poise/stagger

[@wyrdthings]

This seems to be a common opinion, and I can see why

[@Jin-ou8ok]

Whens the next upload!!

[@wyrdthings]

Not for a long while unfortunately :(

[@Jin-ou8ok]

@@wyrdthings rippp I used to watch you channel every upload a while back wheni played elden ring, recently gettin back into elden ring and your vids still hold up Take your time og

[@woventheweird]

Oh, I'm in a thing! Does anybody want some tea? ☕👜

[@wyrdthings]

10/10 Liurnia ganker impression

[@etem2006]

You and your mate both using moonveil / playing mage and teabagging invaders kinda cringe and toxic. I get you're trying to demonstrate an issue but this was hard to watch - maybe ask him to calm down or cut those parts? idk. As for solutions, I simply think the amount of mind you can fit into a build and still do good damage / be tanky is insane. My go to strategy is usually to wear out the mage's FP, but that can sometimes take 10-15 minutes before they're done spamming. The invading experience is terrible compared to duels in my opinion.

[@wyrdthings]

Honestly, if it was hard to watch, then we've achieved what I set out to do. I will acknowledge the feedback, however. And yeah, I do the same more often than not - and with Starlight Shards in the mix that extended spam period can go on forever...

[@etem2006]

@@wyrdthings Sorry my initial comment sounded whiny. Wizards in invasions give me that visceral reaction haha so you defs achieved your goal. Your points are spot on about the pressure you’re able to achieve with little to no counter-play just sitting there spamming stars. Unfortunately it’s pretty harmful to the state of PvP, but some people need that simplicity to complete the game. Wizards are like the scooter enthusiasts of the Elden Ring skate park.

[@wyrdthings]

@@etem2006 lol no worries my man, You weren't wrong in the slightest anyway :P

[@JustaSmilingHedgehog]

The best solution to any problem you have no control over is, to stop engaging with the thing causing it, unless it is necesseary. PvP in Souls game is a silly minigame, this is what is what is designed to be. NO one should take it seriously or treat it as a competent or well made thing.

[@individual116]

Invade me and my buddies you better be prepared for the cancer that is double caster and melee pressure. You don’t deserve fun if you invade you deserve misery and that’s exactly what you’ll get.

[@ThatGuyOrby]

Say you're salty and bitter without saying you're salty and bitter. "If you engage with a mechanic that's been part of the Souls genre's personality for over 12 years that I don't like you don't deserve any fun". I'm sure you're fun at parties.

[@pitshoster401]

Co-op carebear spotted lol

[@wyrdthings]

Miyazaki doesn't even play his own games

[@LiliumCruorem]

Honestly I think pvp is a mere novelty in this game. Go play a dedicated pvp game if you want actual balance.

[@wyrdthings]

I don't understand why you think 'stop discussing the problems of a thing you like, and instead go and play something you don't like' is a helpful suggestion, but I appreciate you taking the time to give it.

[@gomagick893]

or get gud?

[@wyrdthings]

_

[@thevikingofhardcheese4080]

Hey Wyrd, I hope all is well. I wanted to ask, at meta levels (specially in the 270s range) which is objectively stronger: faith-strength builds with minimum investment in dex to use dexterity weapons, or quality builds with minimum investment in faith for body buffs? Specifically for my quality build I had 40 something faith but then switched back to my faith strength build with 40 something in dex. I’m just wondering of the power levels between these two for melee combat specifically. Kindest regards, Viking ⚔️🪓💪🌩️

[@wyrdthings]

Honestly, everything I've heard about Quality builds says they're trash at any level :/ It used to be that the Faith was worth it for buffs alone, but as of last patch I'm not so sure, either...