How to run the Wave Echo Cave without a map in LMOP - D&D 5th Edition Starter Set Guide 7

[@heyitsMattyP]

What's your favourite encounter in this dungeon? I am responding to your comments LIVE on Twitch right now! Come see: www.twitch.tv/MatthewPerkinsDM MY favourite encounter in this dungeon is the Flame Skull! We turned it into a special player moment by having our Warforged chasing another Warforged named Pistol, rumoured to have a bomb in his chest. They found Pistol dead in this room, and after they defeated the Flame Skull, the party installed Pistol'ss bomb into the Warforged Barbarian's chest, allowing him to cast Fireball on himself once. -------------- ❤ Support the Channel ❤ -------------- 💚 Patreon: matthewperkins.net/patreon 💚 Donate: matthewperkins.net/donate 💚 Store: matthewperkins.net/store 💚 DM Guild: matthewperkins.net/dmsguild 💜 Twitch: matthewperkins.net/twitch 💜 TikTok: matthewperkins.net/tiktok 🧡 Discord: matthewperkins.net/discord 🧡 Facebook: matthewperkins.net/facebook 🧡 Twitter: matthewperkins.net/twitter 🧡 Instagram: matthewperkins.net/instagram 🧡 Reddit: matthewperkins.net/reddit ✏ Blog: matthewperkins.net/blog 📧 For marketing/business/sponsorship inquiries, email: [e-mail]

[@Luboffin]

Same! Had a hilarious moment with the Flameskull when one of the players decided to take the skull with them once they had defeated it....only to have it begin resurrecting while attached to their belt 😂

[@heyitsMattyP]

@@Luboffin Reminds me of Grandpa Simpson. "I needed a new heel for my shoe, so I decided to go to the Wave Echo Cave which is what they called Lost Mines in those days. So, I tied a Flame Skull to my belt which was the style at the time. Now, to take the ferry cost a copper. And in those days, nickels had pictures of bumblebees on 'em!"

[@matthewjamesmjw4172]

I decided to make the Mysterious Puzzle Box contain one of 3 keys that are needed to de-activate the security system protecting the Forge of Spells. The Black Spider spends most of the campaign collecting the other 2 keys, the Players have the third. Back when the gnomes, dwarves, and human spellcasters controlled the Forge of Spells 500 years ago, they had a pact together. It makes sense that they would each get a key. Each faction, therefore, had veto power - if fighting ever broke out between the factions, then nobody could use the Forge of Spells until all three factions came to some agreement. When the orcs overwhelmed the human-dwarf-gnome alliance, the keys were lost to time. Once the Black Spider learned that the Forge had been discovered, her quest lead her to uncover the need for the keys, and she uses her connections and influence to find the locations of the 3 keys. Unfortunately for the Black Spider, our Players got to one of the keys before she did.

[@amberpdavis]

This is genius, do you mind if I yoink this to use in my campaign?

[@BenceGutai]

This is absolutely phantastic!

[@matthewjamesmjw4172]

@@amberpdavis Sure!

[@jeffyachcik3094]

Stealing this in 2024, love it thematically!

[@weynotllandin]

damn your lmop is worlds above mine, so much to learn here. oh yeah you find a letter signed with, uh, a black spider. i don't really know why yet though sorry i was too busy giving every fucking redbrand a name - my life as a new dm

[@Nogleoni2]

As a first-time DM for first-time players. these videos are SO HELPFUL

[@claudioegalaz]

same! And I’m also a first time ever player and DMing for the first time, but these videos are sooo helpful :)

[@Luboffin]

"Two groups of strangers smashing eachother in the carpark" OMG this was literally my experience with the final boss battle. I worked so hard to introduce foreshadowing about The Black Spider into the game ahead of time but the players were just like "so...who's this guy?" 😂 To be fair on me though even in the final boss battle they couldn't remember which dice they needed to roll for attacks - they were much more interested in being murder chaos hobos than anything else 😂

[@heyitsMattyP]

Me too! It was a mess. Sometimes I have to remind myself the players don't have object permanence, so if I want them to remember something, it needs to be directly in front of them. I actually cringe whenever I think about that first campaign - so many basic errors on part, so many easily avoided problems. None of us knew how to play, we didn't know each other well enough, so we hit almost every speedbump at full pelt.

[@hectorgarza3407]

This is where I’m at right now lol,I’m trying to save the finally :(

[@lemake72]

I love bringing the boss battle and the noise to the forge, so it's all tied together.

[@heyitsMattyP]

Thanks Kevin! We don't want to split focus, and have competing goals. The players are simple creatures, who need focus so we put it all in one spot.

[@andy3818]

Awesome video and very timely! I just ran the Cragmaw Castle for my party yesterday and am hoping to run through the wave echo cave next weekend. In our version of the castle, the Goblins were cosplaying what they know from paintings of high fantasy swords/sorcery Arthurian legend society. Lots of fun details with that: Grol was a jester as the jester character was seen near the throne with all eyes on him in the art, they installed a merlin like wizard instead of a priest in the cathedral, and the foot soldier "knights" were in a banquet hall where they placed an apple in a pigs mouth, not to eat but because apparently that's what you do at a banquet.

[@heyitsMattyP]

That's actual gold - the real juice is right there! Can I use it in my story-time video at the end of this series?

[@andy3818]

@@heyitsMattyP definitely! And to add a bit more color if you're interested: In our version of the story Yeemik is the smartest of the goblins and largely in charge, though the others make fun of him for being a bit of a brainiac. That detail emerged as my players found a letter from the Black Spider in Yeemik's care while in the goblin cave during session 1. A throw away line from me that he was the only goblin who could read eventually spiraled into meaning that Yeemik covertly makes all the actual decisions for the goblins and pulls all the strings. For this reason, Yeemik knew to name himself the King of the castle. He knew that if he did that then if visitorsp came knocking they would (correctly) assume Yeemik was in charge. Overall we have been having a wonderful time with the campaign pulling on as many little details as we can to draw lots of life out of the world. Thank you so much for your great ideas which have been so helpful sparking many hours of (socially distanced video chat) fun!

[@mikeyjofalviton5046]

Great stuff now I gotta rewatch this 10 more times till I’m confident enough to run it this way

[@heyitsMattyP]

Oh no! I believe in you! In two weeks, I'll release a bigger, more in-depth video for people who prefer the traditional dungeon. Keep an eye out :D

[@XpVersusVista]

@@heyitsMattyP the original dungeon is really bad imo. I prefer ripping out the whole wave echo cave and instead put in a heavily modified "Forge of Fury" from Tales of the Yawning Portal.

[@benmacdonald2849]

My party found a quill in the puzzle box. My guardian is a stone golem that serves as a kind of blacksmith for the forge, crafting weapons and managing the magical flame. He will defend the forge at all costs until someone signs their name in massive book that is on the pedestal, which turns out to be the Phandelver’s Pact!

[@TimTYT]

I love that and I am definitely going to steal it. ;) How did you balance the golem, though? Seems like it would just kill the Black Spider single handedly.

[@benmacdonald2849]

@@TimTYT Please steal it and let me know how it goes!!! So I actually had the Black Spider steal the quill from the party and she was able to use that to sign the Pact and use the forge of spells to create her spider staff that gave my party a serious whooping. It was epic!! When my party got to the forge of spells, the feather was being protected by the guardian so they had to get the quill, sign the book, all while dodging his attacks from his mighty hammer. The guardian is basically invincible, forcing them to sign the book and get creative. A slight plot hole is why the Black Spider would let the guardian keep the quill, but I kind of spun it in a way that made it seem like she didn't care if they came or not...she had everything she needed to end them! Also, I updated this and the guardian became more of a mechanoid, golden robot golem which fit my description of the Forge of Spells. After an epic battle with the Black Spider, I awarded my players with custom magic items that the Guardian created using the forge. There was no way I was going to have them find this ancient source of magic that can create magic weapons and just walk away from it! Also, this story arc took 17 sessions for us, so it was quite the culmination. You can check out my custom magic items here: www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/p74amx/magic_item_feedback/

[@TimTYT]

@@benmacdonald2849 Thanks for your answer! We actually had our first session a couple of days ago. (First time for all of us). They were kind of confused by the quill, because I think they expected some kind of magical weapon or something, but I still love it. It's gonna take a while until they get to the Forge of Spells, but I'm already excited for their interactions with the Black Spider. I also really like the idea of giving them magical items from the forge. They are already looking for op items under every rock, so they will probably riot if I don't give them something nice. Our fighter already has a special axe that he got from Gundren in his backstory and I had already planned on having him upgrade it in some way, so that will probably work out really well.

[@benmacdonald2849]

@@TimTYT Congratulations!! This was all of our first time playing too. If I had any advice, I would REALLY encourage you to take every suggestion from the source material, reddit, KZbin, etc. and make them your own. Don't feel like any part of the story has to be a certain way. Craft the story for your players and you'll have an absolute blast!!

[@jamievarga8340]

Just played through Cragmaw with my wife and kids in a family campaign as we all learn our roles and how to play. They flipped Cragmaw on its lid by entering through the secret door and attacked the Bugbear knights, King Grol and the shape-shifting first! It was fun and really changed the theme of the rest of the castle crawling.

[@heyitsMattyP]

Nice one! I'd prefer players take that route and cut the dungeon content in half - it would save me a lot of effort haha

[@asLeepLessman]

I can't possibly explain how much you've helped me tweak this campaign, what I've used and didn't, what worked and didn't, how it all unfolded, and what it has led into. So much has taken a life of its own, and some of your ideas have married some of my own. We just reached the Echo Cave, and I keep coming back for more ideas, but now, I can't use yours anymore. Everything is so different now and very much catered to my players. Now, your ideas are more of a reassurance that I did well. I dont know how this will end, soon, but I'm grateful for your help and others, in making it my/our own. I didnt do it your way but your way influenced mine. Thank you, for your contribution to mine, in all our Epic Journeys. I will come back one day when it's over, and fill in some of the blanks above.

[@heyitsMattyP]

That's exactly what I love to hear! Never let the book (or me) convince you to do something that you think is a crap idea - follow your heart!

[@butcher638butcher638]

I liked the FAQ and check list at the start, I think that would be very helpful as peeps prep

[@heyitsMattyP]

The FAQ is me covering my tracks - I left too much unsaid in the previous videos, so hopefully this clears it up for some people :)

[@sungone]

Always nice to see the next thing you kill from this adventure, "you monster". I like how succinct you've made it, very focused. I love it!

[@heyitsMattyP]

That's very kind Sun! Thank you! The people who are angry at how much I've cut are busy typing out their long angry responses.

[@TroublingPath]

For my campaign, the puzzle box, when solved, opened a small portal to all four of the elemental planes, depending on how it was solved. These portals could be used to siphon elemental energy out of the planes and using the Forge of Spells bind it to items to make them magical.

[@pvtshthouse7925]

Hey thanks so much for these videos! I wanted to share my “puzzle box” idea I used in our party’s campaign as thanks. For my bit, I ended up at GameStop after browsing several stores for inspiration and ended up buying a D20 that sort of transforms into a miniature pet Beholder on a successful DC of 18 intelligence during a long rest. Basically, I just had the black spider hold the poor creature (I named “Clique-ta-nesh” for the imaginary sounds it made on opening the first time) and use its eyes to simply petrify the guardian. I ended up using Volo’s… to make an extensive role play and stay block for the obnoxious little guy but it was so much fun! So much so that my party has fought harder over who gets to hold the little tyrant than against the Redbrands all together lol. None of which would have been possible without these videos so thanks so much again!

[@heyitsMattyP]

Great idea! Glad to help :)

[@benvoliothefirst]

I had Sildar, loyal knight that he is, swallow the MPB/MacGuffin some time after he was captured. When the Black Spider approaches the characters, they won't know what she's talking about... and then Sildar will let them know he WILL have it... in 2-3 days.

[@heyitsMattyP]

Ben that's terrifying. How big is the box!? This is an episode of My Weird Addiction. "He's just obsessed with eating plot devices!"

[@benvoliothefirst]

@@heyitsMattyP METALOCALYPSE CONFIRMED, also I imagine in order to swallow it (the jade frog, in my case), it wasn't more than two inches end-to-end. Slippery, too. Sildar's an old guy. He probably has pills that large.

[@heyitsMattyP]

@@benvoliothefirst PLUS now you can make a frog-in-you-throat joke about his croaky voice

[@maxthecomicbookguy]

I like that you brought up Indy. I've been thinking about using my "puzzle box" more like Henry Jones' diary.

[@TheBinger033]

I have watched this video so many times, I couldn’t help notice this art at 2:08

[@heyitsMattyP]

I didn't draw it, but yeah I see it too haha

[@American_Mike]

My Puzzle Box 1) Was a Da Vinci Cryptex Box with something clearly hidden inside that made a sound when shook. It looks Dwarven enough to pass off as an ancient relic. And has a combo you can set. 2) I got some Yoga Chakra stones because they look cool and I had a yogi in the group. Most were given to the Big Bads, Green to King G, White to Glass Staff, Red to one of the Redbrands. 3) The stones that were not used by the Black Spider to buy loyalty were the ones inside the Puzzle Box. 4) The Stones were used to imbue a unique pair of Gauntlets of Oger Strength that allowed them to pull the lever that ignites the forges magic power. Yes Thanos Glove, but also a way to slide in Hammer of Thunder during some later campaign. The party won't sell off the one magic item that helps them turn on and off the forge magic. 5) The combination for the Cryptex box was the stones themselves. Arcana check and someone recognizes the symbols correlate to letters. I arranged the stones from the bottom of the Chakra chart to the top from left to right. It did not take long for the yoga instructor player of mine to figure out the combo. Then seeing the missing stones, the party knew the stones went in the glove due to my description of the Thanos knockoff. Unrelated note, when my party was fighting a big bad I failed an athletics check for him with a nat 1. He fell down and realizing he was beaten, begged for mercy. The party set him on fire... But they also saved all the wolves and helped free the banshee from her torment without killing her. So not complete murder hobos.

[@Cassapphic]

I'm about to run wave echo cave and wanted to one thank you for making this series even if I chose to overlook or deliberately ignore a lot of the changes as I personally didnt like them, I did include just as many, and its been a great guide to help me ease into DMing and just playing overall as my group including me is entirely fresh players with me as never played DM. That said, the mcguffin I went with was a stone cylinder with arcane markings engraved over it, that is needed to open a door to the forge of spells, the spectator will still also be there because I just love how the book as written presents it, this imposing creature sat blocking off and watching over the big powerful secret of the mine oblivous to its own fate and acting as if everything is normal, I have a bunch of ideas for how to roleplay that "oh it sure is good to see some young blood in here working the mines again the undead automation process had gotten really out of hand". I had the party find the mcguffin in the ruins of conyberry, hidden in the corpse of Tharden's horse (tharden was ambushed by doppleganger's and murdered there, and desperately hid the mcguffin in the one place that got overlooked) But the way I initially presented the black spider, the payers tried to pressure him (still a man in my story because I dont like the matriachal aspect of the drow because it plays into some stereotypes and tropes that i dont want in my games, I changed that lore to be a harsh meritocracy that pushed people out if they couldn't immediately show promise) to leave and refused to really engage or negotiate with him properly because they had zero trust in him (maybe if he reapproached when they headed after cragmaw castle they may have been more amenable as they only had vague directions, but they'd also had sister garelle speak with dead for tharden so they knew what the mcguffin did, no way they trade it then. But I still wanted a way to threaten that the black spider could find a way to get to the forge of spells first, so in cragmaw castle I had one sample of the black spider's attempts to reverse engineer the mcguffin based on the noticed hole in the locked door, and while the party can't get a good look at it as a doppleganger quickly scoops it away before they can, it sets up the potential threat. (Edit: Also another source for a buffed up Nezznar statline is actually to modify and reflavour the dnd movie sorcerer stat block free on dnd beyond its soemthing I stumbled onto today and felt interested in)

[@heyitsMattyP]

Hey Cass! Sounds like good decisions :) My message has always been: ignore the book, ignore me, follow your heart. So I'm glad you've ignored some of my suggestions!

[@calebelkins217]

The item in the puzzle box was an old rusted metal rose. When the met the monster at the cave entrance it was a metallic golem that when exposed to the flower would take on its rust and age as the flower would return to being shiny and new looking. When they saw the golem I really hammed up how untouched and old the area was but uncharacteristically polished and shiny the golem was. Also, story... our shapeshifter character pretended to be glass staff to influence the mobs of rebrands and after it is all resolved, without thinking or checking the staff to see if its magical, he tosses it to a kid and tells him to have fun with it.

[@heyitsMattyP]

I bet that's the exact same way the Iarno got the staff.

[@amberpdavis]

I love using props in my campaign and just found an old key that fits perfectly in the puzzle box I bought online. So stoked to give it to my party next week

[@heyitsMattyP]

Oh that's sick! I think my best props are some healing potions with D4s inside.

[@agsilverradio2225]

When I think guardian, I think iron golem bouncer. It's programed to attack intruders, unless they present the item in the puzzle-box.

[@dannymurray9047]

Bloody hell mate!! I can't understand how you only have 16 K subs!? Your channel is brilliant!! Keep up the great work...regards from Danny in Yorkshire, England 👍

[@heyitsMattyP]

Cheers Danny! People said that when I was at 100, 1000, and 10000 -- so I'm glad there's still more to go!

[@adammetc]

Cool to have the whole series almost finished!

[@heyitsMattyP]

We're so close to FINALLY being done with Lost Mines, then we can move away from D&D topics and pivot to what I really want the channel to be about: drama, KZbin beefs and makeup tutorials.

[@adammetc]

@@heyitsMattyP hilarious. But seriously - what is next?

[@heyitsMattyP]

Well I've got two more LMOP videos written. Then I have a few stand-alones to make: diseases, a few videos from patreon suggestions. Then I'd like to do one or two one-shot guides and start our next module series on February or late January. I don't know which module yet though, because I haven't read many -- got to get a D&D book club organised to motivate me!

[@AlanTenore]

I ran LMoP years ago for some family members, and used only a few modifications. Well, I'm getting 2 new people who want to play, so I think I'm gonna run them through this adventure because I already have it all up on roll20. And I'll definitely be using some of your ideas. And while I enjoyed running it, I have one very big gripe: timing. If we take into account all the travel time and the days and days of walking, then Gundren has been captured for about a week before the party finds him, and Nundro (if playing adventure as written) for almost 2. And the icing on the cake is that Wave Echo Cave is less than a day's journey away from Phandalin. It's almost like running all over the place to find something you lost, only to find you had left it on a table in your back yard. What's Nezzar doing with Nundro (and Grol with Gundren) for that whole time? Without the key bit, the only thing stopping Nezzar is some zombies on one side and some fungal spores on the other? My party just ran through holding their breath. I'm sure Nezzar could have practiced holding their breath in the past two weeks to get through the cave, especially with that one pool inside room 10! Climax and justification are definitely lacking here, and I'm sure there are some awesome fixes waiting for me when I watch the next episode.

[@heyitsMattyP]

How did you feel about the travel times in Game of Thrones season 8? A lot of people hated it, but I loved it. The characters just teleported from drama to drama, without that slow travel crawl of season 1. That's how I tend to do travel - abstract and lossey goosey.

[@granttrain3553]

Top stuff Matt! I was really impressed with the editing on this video, its really well made.

[@heyitsMattyP]

Thanks Grant! This one was a breeze to put together too. Normally I put aside a few days to edit these, but I did this one in an afternoon.

[@jackfranciswest3778]

I’ve waited my whole life for this vid 😭

[@heyitsMattyP]

It's Ben a long time coming, for sure! The next video is about the Wave Echo Cave too.

[@benvoliothefirst]

@@heyitsMattyP As a Ben, I agree completely, and I heartily approve this message.

[@heyitsMattyP]

@@benvoliothefirst I am the worst typist. I don't know what happened, but after I turned 30, I just stopped correcting my mistakes. I'm free, Benn.

[@ShinGetterPoPo]

We're nearly done with the lost mine and my favorite bit so far was my players sneaking through cragmaw castle. They tricked the majority of the staff into waiting by the main entrance to go raid a village. My players killed King Grol, and ran. They didn't have enough xp to be ok in wave echo cave so all those goblins and things were waiting at Phandalain and thus began the battle of Phandalain. It was saved, but a large portion of the village was burned down.

[@heyitsMattyP]

Nice one! Siege scenes can be super fun

[@Djinra]

When I first introduced my players to the Black Spider they requested her help raiding the Red Brand hide out, none the wiser, they're in for a surprise in the cave.

[@alcahuetasanonymous]

Thoughts on making the key in the puzzle box in two pieces- one in the box, the other in Venomfang’s horde? Then add Reidoth as another cohort of the Black Spider (promised Thundertree as an evil druid grove) and it turns the ruined town into a heist! It’s such an iconic encounter!

[@RichMerry]

That is a bold claim, you’ve got my full attention.

[@heyitsMattyP]

Oh no, now I'm worried! It's not so exciting as all that :) This one is all about boiling the dungeon down to five key scenes or encounters, talking about the finale in terms of story beats you should try to hit. But the next video will be the room-by-room breakdown for anyone who wants to run it as a traditional dungeon.

[@alexcothren5103]

Watched so many of your videos and each one is so well done. Thank you

[@heyitsMattyP]

Thanks Alex! Continual improvement is something I strive for :)

[@HannahFortalezza]

And my hands became charred in appearance! It was lots of fun!

[@heyitsMattyP]

You all did a great job! The Black Spider had it coming

[@uffish2]

I finally figured out what I'm putting in the puzzle box. It's basically a 101 years of service pin (but a mithral amulet) written in Deep Speech. Turns out the mage who summoned the spectator (Mormesk, who was an elf in life) became friends with the spectator, and told him that he'd come up with something special to recognize him for his hard work once his 101-year shift was up. Without that promised acknowledgement and gift from his friend, the spectator refuses to believe the time is up, so he's still guarding the Forge. (I'm also considering making it so that Mormesk once promised the spectator that they would have a smoke together under the real night sky, instead of just in the starry cavern. Mormesk the Wraith doesn't remember why he values the pipe, but that's it--it's become a symbol of his friendship with the spectator.) Then, when the orcs attacked, Mormesk was the last of the humanoid 'good guys.' He ran and barricaded himself into his quarters, summoned a devil (thus the soot?) and made an ill-advised deal to try and get himself more soldiers to defend the Forge with. He asked for the power to command the those already dead within the cave, and he got it--he just got it by becoming a wraith. His new army caused the cave-ins, successfully killing most of the orc army, but Mormesk lost his alignment and his memories. To him, the spectator now is just an obstacle preventing him from admiring the magic items languishing in the Forge. I'm pleased about making it all link back together, but I'm unsure how this lore could come up at all for the players--no one reads deep speech. The Rockseekers must have known enough to send them for the puzzle box, so presumably they know that much of the story. And I guess it's strange the puzzle box was elsewhere, but maybe it was commissioned from a Neverwinter artisan, but never retrieved because Mormesk died first.

[@heyitsMattyP]

It's OK to leave your lore unanswered. Even if they don't read deep speech, sometimes a mystery is fun even when unresolved.

[@lvp73]

I can not unsee 2:09

[@heyitsMattyP]

It's like I'm continuing the Dungeon Master tradition of accidentally-giving-an-NPC-a-name-that-is-sexual

[@benvoliothefirst]

Cool to see my name in the patreon list at the end. Yay I'm famous! That's how this works, right?

[@benvoliothefirst]

I'm "Ben V" in the list. OMG SENPAI NOTICED ME

[@heyitsMattyP]

That IS how it works. And one day, when I die, you will buy a set of dice, and find the golden D4, winning a tour of my apartment, and a chance to win ownership of the channel. Some may die.

[@benvoliothefirst]

@@heyitsMattyP As long as the cat's still there, I'm cool

[@heyitsMattyP]

🐱

[@chippichawa4843]

Ran the first session of WEC like this: Introduction of a scene as the players enter the cave cut to darkness to a call back to a previous time involving a party of drow and their intents within the cave, with conflicting interests that challenge party perceptions of the Black Spider's goals - Black Spider is actually a female drow that came with other drow exiles to cure them of "the curse" (lore-based) - The drow wanted to guard WEC from upcoming tides of dark creatures from the Underdark that would use WEC as an invasion site. - The players are now perplexed to their initial perceptions of the Black Spider's motivation to control/subdue Phandalin, creating a complex relationship from previous sessions I played the Black Spider as a tragic villain,that used the several assets as insurances against the upcoming darkness, while the player party eliminated these "threats" it was sabotaging her true intentions. To give credence to her impact on the story, A scene opens up where she as a masked figure reveals her drow form to a mirror all the while reciting the lyrics of Arcane's Enemy while the several chess and board pieces on the table reflect her forces vs. the party

[@heyitsMattyP]

Good job escaping the evil-for-evil's-sake trope with your villain. I try to position her as more of a rival than a villain ideally, so the party feel like she's ruthlessly competing with them.

[@chippichawa4843]

@@heyitsMattyP they used to, feel that she was the villain in all this. With her different actions though and the discovery of her true possible intentions, the party is starting to have second thoughts. -She kidnapped 2 of the Rockseeker Brothers, exchanged Tharden for the surrender of Phandalin to spare the people -She gave several parley to offer the party to join her but the party refused and so it was that she was antagonized further. -Though she has everything she needs early on in the adventure, there is one major problem. Ixal the Nothic is now the well's new guardian, insanely powered by the party so it's gonna be a mexican standoff for sure XD

[@kane69greymane]

I love the puzzel box, my grand children opened the box and then traded the empty box for Gundriana.

[@heyitsMattyP]

Clever! My players did the same :) Was it the REAL Gundriana?

[@kane69greymane]

@@heyitsMattyP yes it was the real one they had rescued the dople ganger before so were not so easily fooled.

[@LoneWolffanwriter]

Second group approaching WEC. Has the party met the Black Spider? - Yep! Almost met her in a tavern, but she stayed close and just listened. Does the party know the Black Spider's Evil Plan? - They found the Peace Pact, but are focused on rescuing Gundren (and figuring out what a dragon egg has to do with all this). Is there animosity between the Black Spider and the party? - They hate her GUTS since she used a doppelganger to impersonate Gundren at their meeting. Has the party resolved or meaningfully interacted with Gundren's storyline? - He is literally the reason they are eschewing pretty much any other side quest. Does the party know the location of Wave Echo Cave? - Yep! Nundro, sly dog that he is, remembers the way. Does the party know what the Forge of Spells even is? - They'll be in the know as of their rest before journeying to the cave. Does the party know about the Forge's guardian? - They haven't a clue. Does the party know the purpose of the mysterious puzzle box? - They know it holds a petrified pocket watch (in my game) but lost box and watch during the meeting, so no.

[@heyitsMattyP]

Well done! It sounds like you prepared well for your finale :)

[@IcarusGames]

I'm a big fan of gutting the mega dungeon into only the most essential parts. For me, so much of many megadungeons is filler, and totally inconsequential to the players stories beyond being a speed bump slowing their progress towards the much juicier goal. So I love to cut out all the fat and only keep the stuff that really works!

[@heyitsMattyP]

Anto! It's all about the juice. Take bite, let it drip down your face and ruin your shoes. Thanks for the voiceover.

[@moshipley82]

The pair of you are my absolute inspirations for taking on the DM role. Thanks guys. You're making a difference to my games 😊

[@IcarusGames]

Thanks @@moshipley82 :D Remember us when you are a superstar DM bringing in all that platinum!!

[@matthewbeardsley9377]

Ooooh man do I have a version of this for you- I followed your advice of introducing the black spider early on in the sessions, and used the puzzle box as the macguffan. The characters pretty much ran it along your story suggestions, except all three rockseeker brothers were captured and brought to Cragmaw Castle (Cragmaws took Gundren, Many Arrows Orc’s took tharden and nundro). Everything flows the same UNTIL the mysterious trade, where Nezzar makes the trade but sneakily poisons Gundren before taking off. My party took Gundren to Sister Garaele, who sent them to Thundertree to find a Druid who has strong enough magic to cure the spider poison. There, they fight VenomFang (a subordinate of Cryovain from DoIP) and Reidoth helps heal Gundren back in phandalin. Gundren, now healed, begs the party for their help once again in saving Tharden (nundro died resisting the Orc’s) and with Gundren, they storm Cragmaw Castle. When they defeat King Grol, Tharden walks out into the throne room to greet his little brother, but with a twist: While Gundren and Nundro spent their lives looking for wave echo cave, Tharden secretly devoted his life to becoming a powerful wizard. His motive for finding Wave Echo Cave was to use the forge of spells, not the wealth of the mine like his brothers. Upon his studies of magic in the underdark , Tharden crossed paths with the Black Spider, and together they hatched the plan to betray his brothers for the forge. Tharden Rocker-seeker sold out his brothers for wealth and power with help from the black spider. With Gundrens discovery of the puzzle box, Thardens plan sets in motion. Tharden plans to kill Nundro before Gundren returns from Neverwinter, and to have the Cragmaw Goblins kidnap Gundren along with the Map to Wave Echo Cave and the puzzle box. but when gundren doesn’t have the puzzle box, he formulated a new plan to lure the players with the box to the black spider using gundren as bait. Tharden claims he and Nundro were attacked by orcs at their camp and nundro died in battle. Tharden was “captured” by the orcs and given to King Grol. Tharden actually sold Nundro out to the black spider and is at cragmaw cave working with the goblins to kill Gundren. They use Gundren as bait to lure the players in mysterious trade, but after defeat they decide to use tharden as bait. Tharden reveals his whole plan and then casts reanimate dead on every corpse in the castle, and they have to do a skill challenge to escape and ultimate take the defeat. The finale battle of wave echo cave is Gundren vs. Tharden, party vs. Nezzar and it. Was. EPIC. I followed up the battle with Cryovain bursting through the ceiling to kill the players for them ridding of Venomfang, and it started the whole next campaign of DoIP. I can’t thank you enough for your inspiration, my entire party thinks I’m a genius DM (my first time lol)

[@matthewbeardsley9377]

To better blend LMOP & DOIP I also made the orcs in DOIP a part of Many Arrows tribe, and Brughor Axe-Biter the chieftain scouting a new base in Wyvern Tor. When the party ultimately murders the Orcs of Wyvern for, Brughors son (Grimrar) is promoted to chieftan and plans on relocating the main tribe from Icespire Peak to the lowlands which catches the lords Alliance’s attention.

[@heyitsMattyP]

Sounds good! I like that way to integrate the dragon. Good job making the adventure your own :)

[@justinhighberger8129]

Hey Matt, loved this series. I've been playing D&D off an on since 2013 and having an itch to come back again. I have LMOP and DoIP and was wondering if you were planning a series for that starter set as well. I would really love to see/hear your thoughts on the DoIP, and wondering why you skipped it going into DoSI (unless i just couldn't find ur playlist).

[@heyitsMattyP]

Hey mate! Glad you liked it :) I skipped Icespire Peak because it just didn't grab me. I re-read it recently though, and I reckon I have some ideas for how to fix it. That series is a long time off though!

[@andyking1356]

Why am I the most attractive patron you've ever seen?

[@heyitsMattyP]

You're the OG

[@XpVersusVista]

because i'm not a patreon yet 🤭

[@leighwright6726]

Hey! Have loved your series on this. I am running LMOP for the first time, working in Thundertree and Venomfang as the big bad (to set up dragony shenanigans). I have a q! I was thinking the party could get into the guardian encounter immediately after entering Wave Echo Cave (a mini boss of a mechanical golem like in labyrinth), then trapse through WEC doing 3 encounters (yet to decide as looking for special player moments), then the big boss fight with Venomfang. Does that seem balanced to you?

[@heyitsMattyP]

Hey thank you! Moving the guardian is totally fine :) You'll have to be comfortable with Venomfang being a way tougher fight than the original final boss, so you've got a higher chance of ending with a party wipe. For this, maybe look at pacing so the party has space for a breather if needed - decide what you're gonna do if the party wants to take a rest in the dungeon. Maybe it means loading them up with some health potions? RE: balance, I don't think it matters if it's balanced at all. You can adjust on the fly. If it's fun, do it. If it's not fun, don't do it.

[@Jakesplace30]

Matt, I have really enjoyed your content. I am also a patreon member. I am moving from LMOP right into SKT. I am a first time DM but I am currently in my second DND campaign. I popped my cherry on the Princes of Apocalypse and now we are doing a Forgotten Realms campaign that one of our more experienced members is creating. Anyway, my thinking is that I want to tie in LMOP to SKT so I was thinking that the Black Spider might be related somehow to Iymrith in disquise, like sone of her children that could resurface if she gets away and if all the giants show up with the adventurers and their giant potions, then they face both of them at the end. What do you think?

[@heyitsMattyP]

Hey Jake! I reckon you'd be better off NOT tethering Imyrith to LMOP - let her exist in her own right and exert her own influence over the SKT story. For my ideas about SKT, I reckon check out this series of videos: kzbin.info/aero/PLmtuNGN3ZDJE77ApHIw6ZPR0jgtJDaOug But I reckon you could tie some elements from LMOP to the giants. For example, there is a Cloud Giant lady looking for ancient artifacts from Ostoria, so you could put a note on The Black Spider's body from that person, commissioning her to investigate the mine to see if there's any connection.

[@olofrensfeldt3994]

Thx for an interesting video. So if i understand you right you run the forge as functional and not broke as it’s written in the campaign?

[@heyitsMattyP]

Is it functional for it to enchant a weapon for an hour? I don't remember, sorry!

[@tylerhoward6295]

Super excited to begin Wave Echo Cave with my players tonight! So far I've got the Ochre Jelly, a swarm of Stirges, and the Flameskull planned for my party. I do have one potential concern though: is the Flameskull too powerful for my party? They're level 4, but I feel like a blow from any of the Flameskull's spells would be enough to OHKO any member of my party. Should I tone it down a little? Or be ruthless and risk a party wipe ok the final dungeon?

[@heyitsMattyP]

Tyler that's rad! The Flame Skull is fine - go big and early with your fireballs. Maybe ditch the zombies in that room. But what the real risk is, it's the Stirges. They output HEAPS of damage and are way more deadly than you'd think. Each is like a little Magic Missile with guaranteed damage, and there are nine of them. I would change the Stirges so they work more like a trap. So the players make a stealth check, if they fail, the Stirges attack everyone once, then fly away. Or one person can make an Animal Handling check to scare them off. Thank you for the comment! We talked it through over on Twitch LIVE :) www.twitch.tv/matthewperkinsdm

[@tylerhoward6295]

@@heyitsMattyP Thanks for your help! One more question: one of my players approached me outside of sessions and told me he wanted to make a heroic sacrifice of his character in the final session. I love this idea, but do you have any recommendations for how to handle a situation like this? PS. I love Hollow Knight! Really enjoying watching you stream it.

[@benvoliothefirst]

Matthew, tell us about yourself! Day job? Bio? Formative experiences?

[@heyitsMattyP]

I was made in a lab

[@andyking1356]

Amateur codebreaker

[@butcher638butcher638]

Can confirm, saw him escape the lab. Fun fact, Matthew is only 2 years old !

[@ZipperonDisney]

2:10 hehehe

[@heyitsMattyP]

Never skip leg day.

[@benvoliothefirst]

If I were a Russian bot, I'd call myself "Vlad the Retailer."

[@heyitsMattyP]

KZbin, ban this bot

[@lucasterable]

Dragon of Icespire *Keep*.... on the Borderlands? ;P

[@heyitsMattyP]

Dragon of Icespire Peaky Blinders

[@alistairDebenham]

I haves royally screwed up the story for this campaign. It’s my first time DMing, we’re approaching the cave in the next few sessions and the only time the party have heard of the black spider is in relation to a letter to glasstaff. I’ve failed to weave it in to my sessions and I know I’m going to pay the ultimate price with a dead ending to the story 😢

[@heyitsMattyP]

That's OK! This was my first campaign too, and I did the same thing.

[@alistairDebenham]

@@heyitsMattyP I’m hoping I can salvage some of the story by using some of the ideas that you mention in your videos. Thank you so much for making this series ✌️

[@TheHiddenMana]

"I gave my players an actual box that they could hold and touch and taste." mmmmm box... mmmm

[@MaleusMaleficarum]

... sir, are you familiar with Urban Dictionary? LOL

[@TheBinger033]

I did too! I found an actual wooden puzzle box on Etsy. Players roll INT to figure it out, then DEX to actually open it. Took them a few sessions to finally open it, but it enhanced to the mystery and extended the importance of the puzzle box and key within the story.

[@DrAndrewJBlack]

👍🏻

[@tiffanye.8585]

Alright, here is your homework, read Icespire Peak😂

[@heyitsMattyP]

Yes ma'am!

[@andyking1356]

Am I shadowbanned? :(

[@heyitsMattyP]

You are not shadowbanned :) Maybe KZbin just timed you out for a bit?

[@benvoliothefirst]

AGENT COVER BLOWN, ABORT, ABORT

[@heyitsMattyP]

I must respond

[@JPGotrokkits]

STuh-lag-might

[@heyitsMattyP]

nahhh

[@danchevrie3719]

I like to leave comments because the algorithm likes comments. But I’m kinda tired right now so I’m not going to leave a comment on this one. Sorry. :(

[@JackStickley]

TLDR how to run wave echo cave without the map "make it a three room dungeon"

[@andyking1356]

Matt, I think you'll find that you can't just put encounters in front of the players because that's railroading. Don't you know that this game is called Dungeons & Dragons and you've cut both of them. Why are you even playing this game when you could be doing some other thing? Here would be an incredibly long rant from a professional person but I've had to cut all of the key points because they weren't interesting enough.

[@heyitsMattyP]

Beautiful.

[@alexbien8638]

😂😂😂

[@XenialShotYT]

8 mins in to get to the title of the video :/