How to Safely Drill Holes in Sheet Metal Using a Twist Drill

[@Rochesterhome]

66 years later, I've finally learned to drill a hole thru metal. Where were you in the 70's? Thank you.

[@theromihs]

That was the 1st time I heard of this technique, and I'm blown away by how well it works! Thanks for sharing that Mark.

[@jdmccorful]

Ditto, thanks!

[@aaroncarr-mackay2457]

I agree. It's a super tip I never knew I needed.

[@andyh8239]

Same, but still not sure I would hold that by hand with my luck though.

[@myfordboy]

That's great tip. I have never seen that in any books.

[@MichaelKingsfordGray]

You won't. It is dangerous shop-practice.

[@ceptimus]

Great tip, which I've never seen before. I used to clamp the sheet metal between two pieces of wood while drilling, but your method is much simpler and quicker.

[@Preso58]

Sandwiching the metal between two sheets of plywood or MDF is safer and probably gives a slightly better result but it can be hard to position the drill bit over the marked out centre. I guess if you are very careful not to move the stock you could start the drill and then clamp the top layer of sheet material over the stock to be drilled. It would probably require three hands though! The cloth method allows you to start the hole exactly on a centre punch mark and then it's a simple matter to drape the cloth over the same point and keep drilling. Regards, Mark

[@jimthesoundman8641]

@@Preso58 If you have a piece of plywood on the bottom, then a piece of plywood with the hole already drilled for the top, you can put the metal with the center punch mark in between and you'll be able to visually line up the center punch mark in the hole that is already drilled in the top plywood. Clamp the sandwich together and then you can put it on the drill press.

[@Rob_65]

This is a very old machinist trick that I learned years ago. Good to see that this is still being taught to the younger generation ;-)

[@genehunsinger3981]

I'm 60 yrs old,,,,and just learned this,,,,hehe

[@loafdad]

Same. I was taught this by an old engineer when I was an apprentice. The cloth helps with absorbing vibration and preventing drill chatter too.

[@stevegreen2432]

Even though I knew you would not drill , I was still having a heart attack!!!! Great demo on safety, danger, and how to do it properly. Heart rate now back to normal.

[@Preso58]

Yeah, sorry about that. I wonder how many people switched off early? Regards, Mark

[@BrooksMoses]

@@Preso58 : Certainly one of the best horror intros I've seen! I didn't switch off early, but I was entirely expecting you to drill it and produce a horrifying mess. (I would have guessed you to be holding it with a pair of long pliers just out of frame, and have your hands well clear, so it would only be unsafe for the metal ... just like you actually did later.)

[@harbitude]

I've been fabing over 50 years and I can still say ya learn something new everyday , GREAT finer point Thanks.

[@Preso58]

This seems to be a common observation. I guess I would have missed it too if I hadn't read that obscure letter to the editor in the old ME magazine. Regards, Mark

[@bobvines00]

Mark, your tip reminded me of one of my parents' neighbors having a workshop accident back in the '80s. He was a commercial airline Pilot that loved to build & work on "street rods." He was making or modifying some kind of sheetmetal bracket/box that already had it's final form, but needed more holes drilled in it. He made the mistake of not only holding it by hand (I don't know if he was also using a drill press vise), but also had one or two fingers that went into a hole. Needless to say, the drill bit grabbed the part and it caught him before he could get untangled. He ended up with his hand & arm wrapped around the chuck/spindle before the motor fortunately stalled out. He was *barely* able to reach the power switch to kill power and was lucky to not pass out from shock (he was working alone in his basement garage). He _almost_ lost the end of one finger and was in major pain as his finger slowly healed (set back in place with a pin & stitches) over the next few months. As a professional Pilot he was grounded until he could prove that he was fully healed. And, while the throbbing finger was healing, the most comfortable position was to lean back in a sofa with his hand leaned back above his head -- their housecat had a bad habit of needing to slap the ball on the end of the pin holding his finger in place while it healed! He said that didn't feel very good either....

[@Preso58]

Oooh! That sounds nasty. He was lucky not to lose one or more fingers completely. Perhaps there should be some sort of register or a case study forum to document these sorts of accidents. I am guessing you would need a strong stomach to read such a document but it would serve as a way to warn others about the consequences of these types of incidents. I know that in the aviation industry, every aircraft incident is investigated and the findings are published. My father in law was an aircraft mechanic working on propellers and he had industry publications with three of four accident reports in each one. It was fascinating reading. Not all the incidents were serious but sometimes the most innocuous circumstances led to disaster. Regards, Mark

[@pcka12]

@@Preso58 there certainly used to be medical textbooks on all sorts of industrial accidents (my dad was an FRCpath (path = pathology) and had lots of them which I used to thumb through as a kid - gruesome!

[@jtbmetaldesigns]

Yes this is proof that an accident that takes less than a second can have consequences that last months, years or life long!

[@markmetzger5430]

OMG......I have been drilling holes for 60 years.....I am flabershausted that I never knew this. Thank you Mark :))

[@LaLaLand.Germany]

Well, this must be the most useful How To video I ever stumbled upon. I just recently obtained a chinesium step drill but this tip is worth its weight in gold. It just so happened I today got me a very nice, German made Metabo drill which has the power to do all sorts of hurt... And few weeks ago I found me an old Black&Dekker which is technically restored by now. The Metabo just needed cleaning. Now that I have two nice drills with a 1/10th mm runout- good enough for the girls I go out with. Thanks Mark, You are a fine instructor, I´ll put this to work...

[@Preso58]

I am glad you found it useful. Like I say, you won't use the method every day but if it saves your fingers it is worth knowing. Regards, Mark

[@MrAirhead2010]

Great tip Mark. Thanks. Both improved safety and accuracy. No more triangular holes!

[@GrantSR]

I am about your age. I have been reading shop tips since I was 9, and I have never seen this one before. My jaw literally dropped when I saw how simple it was and how amazingly well it works.

[@Preso58]

Grant. I used to read and re-read those old Model Engineer magazines. A model engineering club I belonged to had boxes of the really old volumes and they were filled with all sorts of gems. Sadly, I cannot remember them all but this method worked the first time I tried it so I guess it has stuck with me. Regards, Mark

[@ADBBuild]

This is an amazing trick! I hadn't seen it before, but definitely will be using it in the future.

[@eddyhoek8919]

Great tip, Metalwork teacher with 35 years of experience but you taught me something new today! thank you.

[@doughibberd1576]

I have been around for a while and also watched far too many hours of KZbin machining videos, read a lot of magazines and books and this is totally new to me. Just goes to show, thanks for making my workshop a safer place.

[@Preso58]

The older you get, the more you learn. As long as you can retain it you're golden! Regards, Mark

[@springwoodcottage4248]

Fabulous technique, so useful, practical & economic. The number of times I have shed blood with thin stuff spinning on me tells me that I am a slow learner, but this is so swift & convenient that I will use it. Thank you for sharing!

[@EverettsWorkshop]

I will admit I had not heard of doing this for sheet metal until you had mentioned it. Still not sure I'd grab on to the work piece, but I'll definitely be using this trick! Thanks for the shout out (and I'm VERY sorry the response was so late!), and for "virtually" hanging out in my shop with me, lol!

[@Preso58]

Thanks Everett. I wouldn't normally hold the stock in my fingers either. I was taking a risk for artistic merit! However you have to work hard to make the drill bit catch when using the cloth technique. Regards, Mark

[@GrantSR]

That sticker collection is just so adorable. That's a wonderful way to build community. I like that you put push pins in the map to show where they come from.

[@ptonpc]

I have never heard of this. It's impressive!

[@MrSoarman]

Been metal working all my life, I just learned something thanks.

[@hefy2jefy]

This is the most useful video on KZbin, amazingly simple solution to a well known problem!

[@MalJ-eb7nv]

Hi Mark very useful and practical information. The style of the tin snips and the tin plate shaper take back to manual training at school (I still have both styles that family handed down to me). In my day metalwork/woodwork was done in grade 8 (and later at high school if students pursued an industrial course). These subjects set you up for life no matter what area a person chooses to work in. Thankyou

[@billbudnic2941]

Sir, I've worked with metal in fab shops and at home for some 48 + years and have never seen this trick! This is Brilliant. thank you for sharing. Can't wait to try it out in my shop.

[@jenslieber5883]

Good morning, I had this technique explained to me by my master once in 1984. I have never forgotten it and always enjoy using it. Warm greetings from Germany. Jens

[@Preso58]

You are the second viewer from Germany who has reported being taught this technique. Maybe it's a regional thing but having read lots of text books on machining and metalworking (mostly English, American and Australian texts) I have never seen it described. Regards, Mark

[@andrewhorsburgh2549]

I'm 72. A kiwi. Your never to old to learn. Thanks for the tip cobber. Wish I had known that many years ago.

[@ollysworkshop]

I've heard the 'use a bit of cloth' tip before, but never with any explanation. Your video made it perfectly clear. Thank you.

[@fahb68]

I'm 54, all my life in metal shops and I did not know this trick.... very good... thanks

[@BlueMacGyver]

Never appologize for scaring people. They should be scared. I love your video, good work.

[@skysurferuk]

This old trick has been known in good engineering shops for decades, but with governments destroying manufacturing skills, I'm glad you're showing these things in this platform. 👍

[@Preso58]

I had someone tell me that it was commonly taught in German trade schools but I had never been shown the technique when I was training as a shop teacher. Regards, Mark

[@RRaucina]

65 years of building, machining, and drilling holes and this is new to me. Even after reading 40 years worth of Popular Mechanics starting in the 1920's.

[@alknis]

Потрясающе. Если бы сам не увидел, не поверил бы. Я сам пару раз пострадал при сверлении тонкого металла. И сейчас смотрел с замиранием сердца. Единственное что меня успокаивало так только то, что KZbin не пропустил бы видео с плохим концом. Большое спасибо, вы открыли мне новый и безопасный способ сверления. 👍👍👍

[@Preso58]

Пожалуйста. Я рад, что вы нашли это полезным. Mark

[@alknis]

@@Preso58 Очень полезным. 👍👍 Спасибо

[@KarlBunker]

What a great tip! "There's no way that can work" describes my initial reaction, followed by "it's kind of late for an Aprils Fool's joke..." But wow, it actually works. Color me flabbergasted.

[@Watchyn_Yarwood]

👍

[@Preso58]

I know it seems like an unlikely technique but it has worked every time for me. Regards, Mark

[@rogertaylor1589]

Never heard that cloth/twist drill tip. Thanks Mark

[@michelperron2780]

Trained and experienced machinist, and mechanic, 30+ years experience, never heard about this great tricks. I used to place the thin metal sheet, between 2 scrap aluminiun thicher sheet. less accurate. thanks for the tip. From QC Canada.

[@delmarrey9077]

Brilliant! I’ve been a Machinist since 1967 and never seen this before. I’ve always used the step drills, Brad point or punches.

[@smellycat249]

I’ve hurt myself a couple times in life not knowing this bit of information. Thank you very much

[@joewhitney4097]

This was very interesting. I had never heard or seen this before. Neat process. Thanks for sharing.🙂

[@Preso58]

I was surprised that it wasn't more widely known. I have been told it is taught as a drilling technique in parts of Europe but I first read about it in an obscure article in the Model Engineer magazine. Regards, Mark

[@littlebear5219]

Thank you mark. Every day is a school day i never imaged this would work,many thanks

[@garychaplin9861]

Hi Mark, great video. A couple of years back I had to make a new anchor hole in an old French mantle clock main spring. Very hard, very thin and narrow. The recommended method was to punch a hole but not having the appropriate punch I made a sacrificial tool from two pieces of flat strip welded together at one end with the appropriate size hole drilled through, placed the end of the spring between and clamped down as close to the spring as possible. It worked perfectly but it took a lot more time than your technique and left burrs on both sides of the work piece.

[@Preso58]

Gary, I have seen people punching holes in clock springs. They seem to be unwieldy and difficult parts to work with. Not for the fainthearted! Drilling would be a real challenge. Regards, Mark

[@zanonguascar7999]

AWESOME! Sending to lots of metalworkers here in South of Brazil!!

[@Bristoll170]

Well I'm straight out to the shed to try that out.... Back, no blood, and the best holes I've made in thin sheet. A lot quicker, and better results compared with the sandwich between two bits of wood I'd used.....up until now :-) Thanks for the video Mark. Great stuff. Cheers Pete' New Zealand.

[@Preso58]

I'm glad it worked for you. Thanks for watching. Regards, Mark.

[@pgs8597]

G'day Presso. I knew from the start it was a set-up but it still sent shivers shivers down my spine. I've read about the use of a piece of cloth but never seen it done, thank you. Cheers Peter

[@petermcneill80]

That’s absolutely excellent I’m very impressed with that technique, that is most definitely logged in my mental tool box now ! Thank you

[@TheWingnut58]

Who says "an old dog can't learn new tricks"?......brilliant tip Mark, thanks for sharing!

[@nigelroberson8911]

Great tip, thank you. Also a big Thank You for referring to where we all work as a Workshop.

[@petermarsh4993]

Dear Mark, thanks for sharing this brilliantly simple but elegant idea. I’ve had that problem of metal catching & spinning but I still have all my fingers & thumbs.

[@kmet2000]

Yes yes! The old cloth trick. I heard about this some 35 years ago from an old guy. Went through a tech school and it was never mentioned. Priceless lessions for younger generations. Keep em comming 👍

[@sureshshree]

sir what kind of cloth.? kindly reply a. can we use cotton waste available in workshop!

[@kmet2000]

@@sureshshree any cloth. Old jeans, cotton, towel...

[@rayhosking3927]

Thanks for that tip Presso,, been drilling triangular holes in sheetmetal for as long as I can remember,, used the plier or clamp method but still had a few get away from me. Must try this trick next time. Thanks for your continued great content.

[@gogogeedus]

Wow! it took me till now to learn this,no more doing it the wrong way,Thanx Preso.

[@michaelnicholson5218]

I have never seen this technique before, and I'm going to try it out soon On some clamps that are WIP. I've always been wary of drilling sheet since seeing a fellow Apprentice slice his thumb through, That was over 50 years ago, so your never to old to learn. Thank you

[@Preso58]

Thanks Michael. It is certainly a useful technique especially for those jobs where you need a large but clean hole in thin stock. Regards, Mark

[@BronZeage]

That's absolutely amazing. I drill holes in sheet metal on a daily basis and this will save a lot of time and trauma.

[@distantscot945]

Thanks for sharing this very useful information. Tried it this afternoon by drilling a 5/8 inch (15.875mm) hole in a piece of 0.6mm galvabond without a pilot hole. Worked perfectly with minimal burring, although the drill was very sharp and only run at about 180 RPM. Thanks again.

[@Preso58]

I am glad it worked for you. Regards, Mark

[@nilebrixton8436]

as a hobbyist I'm always worried about unknowingly doing something stupid. thank you for sharing this tip. glad I found your video before continue a project requiring drilling holes into sheet metal

[@marcelocarnicelli6200]

Good idea !!! Thank you and hugs from Brazil. Your house and garden are the picture of paradise! Congratulations.

[@Preso58]

Thanks for watching and the compliments! Regards, Mark

[@thehobbymachinistnz]

This is a great tip Mark. I wish I knew this long ago. It would have saved me from all of those drill press helicopter episodes that I have had in the past...

[@Preso58]

It's definitely a finger saver! Regards, Mark

[@lgude]

New technique to me. As it happens in installing a double DIN radio I need to drill the sheet metal mounting brackets to mount the radio a bit lower. It struck me as dodgy business to drill the holes without the drill grabbing it and bending and hurting my hand. Thanks for the tip. Nice roo shots. I’m in Perth and we have quite a mob of Roos at a local monastery.

[@johngranger8029]

Very keen to see the start of your next project Mark

[@Preso58]

Me too! It is sitting on a shelf awaiting some attention but other jobs keep getting in the way! Regards, Mark

[@johngranger8029]

@@Preso58 My wife is getting sick of me going straight to your channel to check for a start every time I turn the TV on.. LOL

[@nickhenscheid369]

Excellent tip, I've spent pretty much my whole life in shops and never heard this one. Would have saved me at least two nasty scars!

[@Preso58]

I trained for three years at college and never heard of this technique either. Nor have I seen it in any text book! Regards, Mark

[@EitriBrokkr]

9 stitches through the center of my thumb for drilling almost that exact shaped piece years ago

[@jamilsiddiquie6369]

Oh! What a technique. What surprises me is how does wisdom evolve and work.

[@glenfowler75]

One of the best drilling tips I've ever seen. Thankyou so much for sharing this technique.

[@doobedoobedo1]

Awesome trick, I've never seem that before. I originally came here for your engine build series. Glad I stuck around.

[@glennstasse5698]

That drilling tip is the best tip ever! I have never come close to a circular hole when drilling sheet metal. Fantastic! And thanks for the wildlife shots. Kangaroos have to be the oddest creature in the fleet.

[@Preso58]

Yes, those roos are weird creatures indeed. There was a report of a woman getting attacked by one on a golf course on the news a few nights ago. It knocked her down and stomped on her several times. I had heard that the best defence if attacked by one was to lie down and protect your head. They don't bite but man, they can kick. Regards, Mark

[@jeffa847]

Ok I admit it! You totally got me with the drill bit moving toward your piece of metal!! Haha - I was sitting there thinking 'wait, that's a terrible idea - is he actually going to be able to hold that?'

[@Preso58]

Yeah, sorry about that. If you know, you know! Regards, Mark

[@georgestefan4675]

Mark, this is excellent and has to be up there with 'sliced bread'..🙂 Thank you for sharing. Also enjoyed the wildlife; a lovely addition to your clip. George. Jasper's Brush, Australia

[@johnfox4691]

Wow, that is a really useful tip. Thanks. I always have trouble when drilling out clock pivot holes when re-bushing.

[@lessayers8653]

Every day is a school day. I never knew that. Thanks Mark.

[@NicholasRiviera-Dr]

Wow, holy twist drills Batman. This is amazing, I’ve been struggling to drill round holes in sheetmetal forever. Definitely going to give this a go next time 👍 Thanks for sharing

[@Preso58]

Thanks. It was a revelation for me when I first tried it. Works every time! Regards, Mark

[@NicholasRiviera-Dr]

@@Preso58 I actually drilled a hole in my Colorbond roof yesterday with a 8mm drill bit. Used your trick and the result was a smooth round hole. Awesome result. I just need to remember to use it from now on. Great tip 👍

[@JoseSilveira-newhandleforYT]

I wasn't expecting that you did it that way too! I've been doing it for over 30 years (learned it from an old mechanic), even on much thicker material (to avoid faceted holes) and I believed I was the only one doing it that way 🙂 In the case of aluminium extrusions, it generally forms a polished collar around the hole, that even looks nice, if you don't need it to be flat 🙂

[@Preso58]

I haven't tried it on thicker stock but I know what you mean about faceted holes, or how to drill a pentagonal hole with a round drill bit! Regards, Mark

[@JoseSilveira-newhandleforYT]

@@Preso58 Yep. Pentagonal holes do go away with the rag.

[@bezimienny690]

Great Video Mark. Thank You I had always problems with drilling thin metal sheets. Looks so easy when you doing it, I'll try that tomorrow at work :D Greetings from Poland!

[@chrisarmstrong8198]

Amazing ! Never seen this before. It's almost magic.

[@DrewDiaz]

Brilliant- I’m 65 and I’m only learning this now

[@jonesgang]

After all these years. Thanks for the great tip!

[@bambukouk]

yes! that's how I learned to do this many years ago ... works every time! enjoying your channel as always thank you

[@TheRecreationalMachinist]

This is great, I'll definitely be giving this a go. Subscribed!

[@Preso58]

Cool! It's a highly undocumented trick but it works every time. Regards, Mark

[@antonkudris]

Damn! That's brilliant! Definitely the most useful video I've seen in months

[@AtlasLathe]

I will have to try this with a hand drill too. I just saw a tip on using a wax type lubricant on flap disk and abrasive cutoff disk on aluminum. It increases the life and makes a better finish. Lenox lube tube, It works good on chop saw abrasive wheels too.

[@johnkinnane547]

G’day Presso that’s lovely to have wild life in your garden we get the same here in Tassie. That was a good peace of advice I’ve seen what happens I was a nurse once and the people that cam in ED with bad cuts was amazing all could have been avoided some of the things you see on KZbin around lathes mainly in very dangerous. Anyway Mark alway like your channel kind regards John

[@Preso58]

Thanks John. Having a small piece of sheet metal catch and spin up a drill bit would be very nasty indeed. I get the shivers just thinking about it. Regards, Mark

[@offshoretinker]

Absolutely brilliant! You just wonder how someone, sometime, came up with the concept.

[@GarryHeard]

New subscriber here from Canada. What a great tip for drilling sheet metal! I'll certainly be giving that a try in the next day or two. Love the stickers at the end and the wildlife shots too.

[@Preso58]

Thanks Garry. We are gearing up to visit Canada again. We are hoping to get to the east coast this time. Certainly a beautiful country with the friendliest people on earth. Well, except for that one driver who tried to run me off the road driving out of Calgary! Regards, Mark

[@trollforge]

I've seen this recently in one of those "Tips Machinists Don't Want Us To Know" videos... I watched it 3 times trying to figure out what the gimmick was... Thanks Mark!

[@PNACLLC]

That is one I have not seen in machining! I usually just suggest sheet metal drills and/or proper clamping and/or fixturing. Great tip sir!

[@CALIBRA4X4]

Hi. I have been working sheet metal for years [and alongside some really skilled folk]. This was new to me, and stored away for future use [and to pass on?]. Thanks and any more tips welcome.

[@CamStLouis]

Great method. I am a woodwind maker and often struggle drilling holes in thinner brass instrument bodies. Really they ought to be milled out but I don't have easy access to a mill anymore.

[@Preso58]

Wow, I don't envy you trying to drill holes in thin brass tubes. The chances of the bit digging in would be high since the cutting edge is going to hook easily. I have not tried this cloth trick on curved surfaces but I guess it would still work. The cloth jams into the spaces between the cutting edges and keeps the axis of the bit on centre. Good luck. Regards, Mark

[@hardwareful]

First saw this trick from one of the oldtimers (Keith Rucker or Keith Fenner here on yt) but couldn't find the video anymore. This one is an excellent reference. Thanks!

[@Preso58]

I am sure those guys would know about it. Regards, Mark

[@blfstk1]

Good Show Mate: I knew about this method. I've never had the need to use it. That could change tomorrow. Good reminder. Thanx.

[@riba2233]

Wow, I'm blown away, will use this trick for sure, thanks!

[@CraigLYoung]

Nice technique Mark! I don't do much sheet metal but it's worth remembering. Thanks for sharing 👍

[@lv_woodturner3899]

Thanks for the tip. Very useful. I loved the nature shots. Dave.

[@johnmolnar2957]

Thanks for the drilling tip, and for sharing the wildlife vids!

[@anmafab]

Hey Mark, late to the video. Another useful technique to add to the arsenal, thank you! Love the wildlife shots. We have had butcher birds visiting down near my place recently and their song is beautiful and very nostalgic. No roos in my suburban backyard unfortunately!

[@JasonBolte]

Very cool trick. My 1st time seeing this also. Thanks for sharing!

[@patrickscahillii9365]

Very clever, simple yet effective, thanks for sharing.

[@mackdog3270]

Ahh, the helicopter of doom. That's what I call it anyway. Makes me feel some nostalgia for when I first started out :) It gets more exciting in proportion to the size.

[@thecarl168]

amazing , i have been drilling sheet metal for 40 years with out knowing this trick !

[@Preso58]

It is amazing isn't it. I have read dozens of books on metalworking and it was not described in a single one. We can be thankful that the old machinist or sheetmetalworker who learned about this passed it on instead of taking it to the grave with him (or her). Regards, Mark

[@gutsngorrrr]

Fantastic tip, not what I was expecting, I thought you were going to clamp between two pieces of wood, but this method allows for much easier set-up and lining up. Even though I'd guessed you were only pretending in the beginning, it still made me wince.

[@Preso58]

Yeah, sorry about the intro but it got your attention didn't it! Regards, Mark

[@SteamerEdge]

Fantastic Tip, I'd never seen this before. In the past I've always used clamps and progressively larger drill sizes and/ or a Step Drill bit. I will definitely use your method in future. Thanks Mark

[@Preso58]

Thanks for watching. Step drills are great but the big advantage with this method is that you can drill any size you have a fractional or metric drill bit for. Regards, Mark

[@rixogtr]

Funny note: I played the video and started eating without watching, just had it as a background, then I heard the crows at the beginning of the video and I immediately knew you must be an aussie youtuber :D

[@billclark5943]

I'm sure I can speak for others familiar with metal working that when you went to drill the the sheetmetal holding it with your hand in the beginning chills ran down our spines.

[@Preso58]

That was a little shock tactic to get your attention! Regards, Mark

[@NoLandMandi]

wow! mind blowned! that was a really good hole in sheet metal. can not wait to try that myself! thanks for sharing Mark!