How We Discuss Celebrity Culture Has To Change

[@TaraMooknee]

it's weird how we simultaneously care so much about celebrities whilst not caring about them as people at all

[@Uptomyknees]

isn't it.

[@dog771]

tara

[@gladiatorinsweats]

I don't think people "care" about celebrities in the ways they claim they do.

[@smsmsmsmsmsm]

This.

[@kelramirez]

They care about them as characters, not as people

[@vanessadalpiaz6423]

“We need to be able to talk about male victims of domestic abuse without being misogynistic” YES, that totally sums up what bothered me about this without knowing how to say it

[@Sarah04527]

Same here! He worded it so well

[@stupidass69420]

THISSS

[@monhi64]

Yeah this video was concerning cuz I’ve definitely noticed all the memes and stuff supporting Johnny but I wasn’t seeing stuff as misogynistic as a bunch of those tweets and stuff Duncan showed. Making me wonder if that’s Twitter, I always hear it’s a cesspool but I absolutely never use it so I don’t know much. The stuff I was seeing were people just making jokes about the it’s always sunny episode where they try to figure out who pooped in the bed, so not high qual humor or anything but at least it’s just stupid not outright bad.

[@annabelapurva-madhuri4861]

Yassss I was just about to type out this quote too 😹👏🏼🙌🏼

[@buttercxpdraws8101]

Same. First video I’ve seen on this channel. Subscribed.

[@ositaiza888]

it always confuses me when ppl say that women have it easy when it comes to sa/dv. there have been so many women who have come out saying that police didn't take their reports seriously, who destroyed rape kits, or had their abusers released with no warning to the victim. male victims are undermined by this idea that they're supposed to always be strong, but i think we just need to admit that as a culture, rape and domestic violence are rarely taken seriously, esp by the institutions made to take it seriously.

[@kat8559]

AH is literally being sued bc she talked about being abused. This is not justice, it's more abuse.

[@ositaiza888]

@@kat8559 I’m not talking abt this specific case I honestly don’t know enough to feel comfortable to talk abt it. I’m talking abt the misogynistic takes ppl are using to discount female victims as “having it easy” when male victims speak up

[@leahjenner6765]

I say this all of the time and I feel like it’s not heard . “Women are always believed “ wasn’t Megan fox exiled from Hollywood in like 2010 for speaking about her experiences . Not to mention I am a sex worker and the victim blaming when we are victims is disgusting . We should be listening to all victims male or female , we don’t need to put one down to lift the other up . This whole JD case is rubbing me the wrong way as many people are using it so say LOOK all women are liars , we don’t need to put down female victims to support male victims . We can support them all !

[@jeremypool6888]

Rarely taken seriously? Like I know you aren't talking about just this case, but do you remember how all of this started? It was everyone backing Amber Herd when she came out about Johnny Depp abusing her until Johnny Depp had to PROVE that he didn't abuse her and it was in fact the other way around

[@sunnyseas6]

@@jeremypool6888 Amber Herd is a celebrity, not a normal person. There is a big difference here

[@theboondoggliest]

"we need to be able to talk about male victims without being mysoginistic" YES. people always tend to use male victims to back their mysoginistic ideas, we should talk about male victims of domestic abuse (and sexual assult) without putting down female victims. it frustrates me so much when a woman is talking about their experience and someone is like "but men also have this happen, why aren't we talking about that" it's ridiculous. also, i might just be disconnected but i dont understand people putting celebrities on a pedestal, like I couldnt care less about celebrities lives, it seems so weird to be so obsessed with it

[@aspannas]

@@selkiemyth7110 it’s also sad that so many men don’t actually care about male victims, you rarely ever see men talking about it and bringing awareness to it. They only bring it up as you said, to silence female victims. Most men who do that don’t actually care of about the male victims, I think in general it’s hard for them to imagine a situation like that happening to them, they lack sympathy and empathy. I mean a lot of men will even make fun fun of other men being abused by women, which makes it even harder for the male victims to get help.

[@TheLily97232]

Or have feminists on Twitter attack women who support Johnny and male victims in general.... Twitter is a dark place

[@dog771]

@@aspannas that's a great point!

[@0-79kmj]

@@aspannas this exactly.

[@artorhen]

It's interesting because someone who cares about a victim of sa, would never use another situation to put down that situation. It's just not what you do.

[@juli5945]

One of the worst things about this case is people saying they KNOW Johnny Depp is innnocent because of random things, such as: look at his face, he has a kind soul, he is so charismatic, etc. Ah yes, the ultimate way to tell if someone is guilty or not: the vibes.

[@LezbeOswald]

almost like Johnny Depp is a professional actor. and they both are of course. i'm not picking sides, i'm just saying that plays a role into people's perceptions of them.

[@arianahofer9912]

This seems like the kind of behavior that would come from true crime culture

[@goblinlibrary280]

Right? Meanwhile, his team is presenting actual evidence and compelling testimonies in court.

[@tiptoes9847]

@@arianahofer9912 Or people who listen to body language analysts and think they can read everybody only by the way someone expresses themselves... not knowing that even the experts have a 20% chances to be wrong because not every human is wired the same way.

[@rewdskwid]

@@tiptoes9847 omggg yes, I have certain nervous ticks because of social anxiety like rubbing/scratching my nose and rapid eye movement due to not being good at eye contact. I'd be deemed a tweaker by these people.

[@AvatheBee]

when others want to bring up the topic of male victims of domestic abuse, they should not shoot down many women out there who are also victims as well. It just means you never cared about them in the first place.

[@gentlesandladymen]

Yep. Uplifting male victims is *NEVER* an excuse to put down female victims.

[@thatmarchingarrow]

Exactly. Abuse towards men is its own important topic, and people shouldn't simply try to use it as a rebuttal when people talk about abuse towards women.

[@babybush164]

The only time they care about male victims is when they're used to put down female victims.

[@memo-fq3ps]

Exactly

[@huskylover8167]

"We need to be able to talk about male victims of domestic abuse without being misogynistic" THISS. I see people saying "if Amber heard were male she would've gotten 20 years" no she wouldn't've. The whole judicial system is awful and we should all work toward supporting each other through it.

[@leahjenner6765]

It’s crazy to me that people are saying that , look at the recent Jimmy Savile thing . He was open basically about his abuse and had 0 consequences .

[@gateauxq4604]

‘Recent’ when his abuse likely dated back to the 50s and no one could speak out about it until he was dead because he was famous and no one wanted to change that. THIS is why things need to change-ALL people need to feel safe enough to talk to someone who can deal with abusers adequately. Make abusers scared ‘again’

[@leahjenner6765]

@@gateauxq4604 I meant the recent documentary , but even so his abuse was only made public in 2012 which is only a decade ago which is scary 😟 considering how long it would have been going on . But I totally agree with you we need to make abusers scared and know there are consequences.

[@memo-fq3ps]

I hate it when people say this when it's actually quite rare that men actually get held accountable for their actions. Or they get very mild punishments for something so huge. I think that applies to men and women.

[@saymyname2417]

@@gateauxq4604 - Saville was never even taken to court because he had connections to the Royals. He is suspected to have been a procurer for people of the highest rank and that it was no coincidence that he was knighted. He sure was an abuser but his case has NOTHING to do with dv. I guess it goes more in direction of Dutroux.

[@princesspeach7936]

When ppl say "jonny depp seems like to much of a nice guy to be an abuser" it feels icky

[@0-79kmj]

Like I obvs believe him but...🤢

[@princesspeach7936]

@@0-79kmj yeah same but like that reason isnt good evidence

[@zorro......]

@@0-79kmj you...believe the man who sent his friend a text saying he wanted to set AH on fire and then r*pe her corpse? and the man who has had 12 out of 14 accounts of being a wifebeater proven in court due to having sufficient evidence to be proven true, making it such that it's proven that JD is physically violent towards AH on several instances? interesting.

[@shush9687]

exactlyyyy it's giving fans-blinded-by-their-idols vibe

[@bigcreator2084]

I have also seen excessive idolization of Depp as if he was the nicest man on earth. It's obvious that Amber Heard was a piece of work, but the depiction of Depp as a living saint is too much when people don't know him well.

[@Sarah04527]

I am SO glad you’re discussing this. I was just explaining this to someone. The public reaction has left me feeling very weird. All of the odd edits made from the trial just feels icky. It’s important to talk about abuse and how men can be victims, but people seem to be treating this like it’s happening on a tv show and not to real people

[@gremli7778]

YES I COMPLETELY AGREE

[@klausval]

Exactly, i've even seen people using the trial footage to make thirst traps about Johnny??? It just seems so insensitive and weird

[@Devon.with.an.i]

The fucking wii music over the court edits

[@ChageeyaSarang]

Absolutely. Certain reactions are frustrating to watch too. The only reason I read comments on clips of the case is to read explanations (& god. Am I grateful for those commentors specifically because I am drowning in all these jargons & long-winded testimonies) 😭

[@aprilfool6076]

Thank you, the whole thing has been so icky. All the edits are like "Johnny savage moment in court" and it's just so wierd. People are using sensationalized click bait to witch hunt Amber. Not picking sides. But I feel like if I just point out that people are demonizing Amber, people call me an "Amber lover" and "suppporter of female abusers" which makes me so sad.

[@unbakedalaska1301]

I had to brace myself before the trial started for the inevitable “women should stop complaining about “abuse” because look!! Men get abused too!” arguments alllll over my social media feeds. The dynamic of their relationship was scary and heartbreaking, why are people so excited to see a man as a victim too? It’s so unsettling to see people ~stan~ johnny or amber in this trial, and it’s just as unsettling to see people taking this as a “win” to argue against the existence of systemic issues (misogyny, etc). Like this isn’t the Super Bowl, this is DV

[@unbakedalaska1301]

ALSO the memes….especially from people on “johnnys side”, still contribute to the stigma that people can’t come forward about their abuse because it will be turned into a big punchline. Women can’t talk about their abuse because “it happens to men too”, and men can’t talk about it because it will turn into a joke as many MRA’s never cared about said victims in the first place. No one is wins

[@danisonice.]

If these men stopped being misogynistic, they'd see we're all on the same side here- it's not that mEn aReNt bELievEd,. It's that accusations of SA aren't believed. And the patriarchy makes it difficult for men, women and queer folks to come out through different messed up methods of oppression.

[@pineconequeen6691]

Being sexually assaulted is so synonymous with femininity and being a women, and women are associated with harmful stereotypes. Men who are assaulted aren’t believed sometimes because the victims of sexual assault are seen as women, the default people who have to carry the weight of harassment are women. Men are seen as strong enough to be decisive and clear-headed so because victims of sexual assault are always portrayed as feminine, these men’s legitimacy is put into question because they are compared “feminine” in coming forward with allegations

[@mayateeemm5728]

i’ve seen the same responses to men and women saying they were s*xual abuse survivors (especially when the perpetrator is of the opposite gender): “you were probably provoking them” “you liked it/you asked for it” “you only said this for attention” “well [perpetrator] said…” it just makes my blood boil

[@matxalenc8410]

@@cateatpasta5990 People aren't listening, though. If someone believes that women are taken seriously when reporting sexual assault or domestic abuse, then they're just not listening to countless experiences of women who say otherwise. People don't want to understand that this is problem for both men and women, because they just want to hate women.

[@glistening7178]

oh shut up for every man that's abused 100 women are abused you thought you ate here.

[@kaamn1829]

oh wow, this phrasing is just perfect. i've been thinking this for a while, but i could never figure out how to phrase it clearly and simply. thank you!!

[@user-rz3nu3lm5r]

It’s a sad truth that victims who are men are often brushed aside and not believed, which is horrible. But I only ever hear people bring up male victims when they want to discredit a victim who is a woman. They don’t care about victims, period.

[@Alexandraadftxr7052]

There are a few movements, and orgenization (sorry if I misspelled it), that want to help male victoms, but they eather unheard of, or they ended because of lack of survivort. 1 out of 6 (sorry if I said they name wrong) is trying to help them, without discreadeting anyone. (Sorry for the grammar, and spelling mistakes, English is not my first language.)

[@nm9688]

No one cared about Brendan Fraser, Terry Crews, Evan Peters, etc. But they care about proven wifebeater Johnny Depp

[@kt8oz]

this case is so heartbreaking, and the fact that WAY too many people are treating it like a sport they're watching for entertainment is so disgusting. meme culture is so gross

[@themyofmy]

We gotta go back to pictures of cats doing funny things this is horrid

[@lesaubergines]

You said this perfectly

[@MyFatherLooksLikeAPallasCat]

What's gross is that KZbin keeps recommending these court-cams and fan edits to me, and may I add, this is the first video I've watched regarding them. I never displayed any interest in their case yet KZbin is trying to feed me this bullcrap. These platforms are as big of a problem as celebritie-culture.

[@gateauxq4604]

Oh god yes! Im sick of having more videos pop up in my feed every day. Like, how about if we throw them both in a yacht and just leave it in the middle of the Pacific Ocean and everyone can get on with their lives?? But this is the bread and butter of tabloid culture so nuance and resolution have no place in our culture 😵‍💫

[@phaphanindeya3880]

Yep. Really hate it. How many times can you say don't recommend this to me?

[@ally939]

Exactly! I haven’t watched one video about this case (other than this one) and I’ve been getting stuff related to it recommended to me non-stop, it’s really strange

[@cocothedino_2901]

google and hollywood feed off each other, the only reason big industries stay around so long is by working together. like with pepsi v.s. coke ads or arguments between fast food places on twitter. it’s annoying. i can’t wait for the trial to end so that my recommendations will go back to normal

[@TheLily97232]

I KNOOOW ! I watched the live ones to get info, the newt thing I know there are tons of meme videos about the subject .... like no please

[@CaterinaMastrogiacomo]

If it was anything BUT an ab*se or very personal trial, I would get people making memes. It would not be immoral to make edits or tiktoks about, say, a copyright lawsuit. But with this being a trial that involves violence in a relationship and very serious accusations, I feel like we're not supposed to be looking at it like a source of entertainement. It's like going to a funeral and saying that the priest is making you thirsty: it's not the moment to humor things.

[@gremli7778]

I FEEL THE SAME WAY. Edits and montages and memes feels so inappropriate

[@whatthehelliot]

like the m&s v aldi lawsuit in the UK. there were loads of memes about it bc it was a copyright case about a caterpillar cake!!! the stakes are so low

[@dracofells5390]

I disagree, humor should be found in any situation. Even dark or violent ones. Acting as if this a solemn situation with no humor would be disingenuous. Even the court is laughing. She pooped in his bed. That's hilarious. Even JD laughed about it. It's so absurd and bizarre some of it is just funny. Whether it's murder, SA, or epstein there's some humor in there. No ones laughing at the abuse. We're laughing at mega pints. We're laughing at as a lawyer asks a Scottish man if he saw JD's dong. The funeral analogy is good because if you've never laughed at a funeral you're being disingenuous. Funerals almost always have the best jokes, because some jokes can only have impact after death. Yes it's inappropriate to ogle the priest. But if you've never laughed at the story relative told about their loved one, you're lying. Yall need to stop taking everything so seriously. Just as bad as the people making thirst videos, but at least they don't have the audacity to pretend they're morally superior. Some of it's inappropriate, some of its not. Lest you forget the live filming of this was a deliberate choice and this is a defamation trial. Not an abuse trial. Court will always be hilarious because lawyers will always ask dumb questions and that will always be a joy in life.

[@sarroumarbeu6810]

Exactly this... someone's life was basically ruined from years of abuse and the trial to bring justice to them is just funny to ppl ? Tf ????? But oh well it's nothing new in this day and age of trivializing SA and DV

[@sarroumarbeu6810]

@@dracofells5390 while I do understand that some ppl would make light of the situation (cuz ignorance is sadly widespread) or even put a dark humour spin on things....it doesn't take away from the fact serious life altering topics aren't meme material on a daily basis...and if they are for you then I don't know what to say.

[@FouEliane]

Abusers never think they’re abusers, they usually think they were justified and « real » abuse doesn’t look like what they do (source: why does he do that, by Lundy Bancroft). So your comment on « maybe they both think they’re not the abuser » is spot on. Great video

[@GrayYeonWannabe]

i wanna make a caveat. there are some real sickos out there who know & revel in it. but a lot (if not most) do not see themselves that way. i have been unfortunate enough to know 3 of the former as well as a few of the latter

[@zocrates3936]

Thanks for mentioning the book, just put it in the cart 👌🏼

[@juliro_]

just realized the fact that I'm not used to seeing sources in comments ever... concerning. thank you for that

[@chasm6091]

Love that book, but wow, it's a hard read if you've ever personally known someone who was abusive. Watching the red flags you missed be revealed throughout the book... yeah. Great information, not fun to read.

[@FouEliane]

@@juliro_ I've been pondering the lack of source in everything we read on the internet for some time. Now I even link my sources in twitter threads. Misinformation has been a big problem on the internet

[@thedestroyasystem]

Thank you so much for saying this! I completely support anyone taking their ab*ser to court but I also believe people deserve privacy when doing so. Even public figures. I can’t be the only one who is uncomfortable with people watching the trial for entertainment value and turning it into a joke. Not mad at the people themselves obviously, just the culture that has caused us to believe this treatment is acceptable just because the folks involved are celebrities.

[@thatmarchingarrow]

In general, some people seem to believe they practically own famous people just because they're 'public figures' and that they don't have a right to privacy or anything like that anymore.

[@hue.main1]

I hate people who see it as entertainment. The reason Johnny fought to have cameras so people can get all the facts right about how the trial is and that no misinformation would be spread. It’s not a drama you watch on Netflix, it is a real trial with heavy topics.

[@JLynnEchelon]

Yes! I admit that I do watch the trial, but I really avoid comments. I'm personally watching it to learn more about the legal system. I like one more than the other, but I am watching more for what the lawyers are doing. If the side I don't like has a good point, they have a good point.

[@themyofmy]

Unrelated but why do I see you/yall everywhere??

[@bababooey7418]

fr like why are people just being like "Johnny Depp being funny in his abuse court trial!!" it's a serious issue and people are farming all they can and turning his trial for ABUSE into something that's funny....

[@kiimdahyun]

this whole case made me realize once again that we as a society are not ready for any public lawsuit regarding any celebrity to be this public

[@Spliffted]

I think the first step to that kind of future would 100% be to dismantle the culture of treating celebrities like Americans do. It’s gross that we obsess over strangers to the point where stuff like this happens, and if we didn’t this whole situation would be so much more sensible

[@kaitlynshort870]

honestly, when will people learn that someone's abuse shouldn't be a joke? like ???

[@Spliffted]

There’s a part of me that dreads the idea that we as a society won’t change

[@LezbeOswald]

something that also adds a wrinkle to this trial in particular that i saw someone bring up: *_both the people involved are actors._* it's already hard enough to tell just from vibes or whatever who's lying and who's telling the truth, but it's gonna be even harder when both these people have been acting professionally for years or decades. that's why, if you're not involved in the trial and not on the jury, you're not gonna be able to figure it out, and even still, no one knows 100% what was happening aside from Depp and Heard.

[@Nakia11798]

That's why I'm not basing my opinions on their behaviours, but on the presented evidence.

[@alyssapinon9670]

I mean Amber is a terrible actress so it makes it a bit easier in that respect 😂

[@nm9688]

Both gave very rehearsed testimonies, which is completely normal in these situations. Depp just was more charismatic and could blame his inconsistent story on being high or whatever

[@beef-oven]

Felt the need to add this: pretty sure depp fought for the trial to be public so that even if he loses the case, the general public sees his side. Defamation is a very difficult case to win so I think he is more hoping to win over the “court of public opinion” rather than the actual court.

[@theimplications635]

well he's done that

[@atuvera9021]

I feel that it was a public thing since the start and he went for: okay since it started this publicly it's gonna end that way also. I can't deny that i have a bias towards him, even tho at first i was doubtful of his innocence... I'm more inclined to believe JD giving his more upfront behaviour than Amber since all the alleged "proof" she gave failed to display a coherent narrative. Most importantly, i recognise his abusive texts and audios and that victims can also be partitioners into the abuse. Nothing is black or white.

[@dia.96]

Yeah, she didn't even mentioned him on the article and lost the jobs for other reasons so I definitely think it's a pr thing. After he lost the UK case and tried to appeal twice and got rejected, he has to know he's not going to win this 🤷

[@kalebsok2947]

@@dia.96 exactly, he wants to ruin Amber’s reputation. At the end of the day, these are both shitty celebrities whom I don’t care about

[@shannon81726]

@@dia.96 I mean frankly, he’s putting up a good case that the op-ed was what caused him to lose jobs - especially with the aclu testimony today. but i do think a lot of people’s flippant attitude (and lack of legal understanding) to be not only problematic and wrong but also a little concerning..? though the UK trial was a vastly different legal system and circumstances (he was suing for being called a wife beater by the sun not for losing jobs because of the allegations) so i don’t know if we can accurately use that case as a barometer for the outcome of this lawsuit

[@JJ-gh2is]

The worst kinds of people in this have been the ones that have said things like “Johnny would NEVER do the things he’s been accused of, that’s not who he is” - you have no idea what kind of person Johnny (or anyone in Hollywood for that matter) really is. That’s not me bashing Depp or anyone else. It’s just a fact. And to suggest that you do know them is embarrassing.

[@JJ-gh2is]

Credit to Kuncan for chipping in with such a nuanced view. Yours and Russell Brand’s take on the trial have been eye opening and shifted my perspective on it.

[@HelenaIsis616]

Everyone says they’ll never fall into a cult. But, looking at fandom/stan culture, are they really sure they wouldn’t fall for a cult…?

[@irisworrall8253]

the thing is, everyone is susceptible to joining a cult. we all think that we aren't because that makes us feel better and safer. but yeah, this fandom/stan culture is already cult-like

[@Naahi95]

Yess exactly! It's so weird to see the lengths people would go to support someone they've never and will never meet. Especially when there are acussasions involved. Stan culture is a cult.

[@Nakia11798]

Anyone who is mentally unwell is susceptible to falling into a cult, and that's like... a large majority of people, some worse than others.

[@The_Abaddon_69]

YES just because men aren’t believed doesn’t mean women are at fault, it’s everyone’s fault that societ doesn’t take rape and these sick crimes seriously…she’s insane

[@starrr365]

Not to mention that women also often aren't believed- It's only post-MeToo that abuse victims affected by misogyny have been given any leverage at all

[@danielledeedee]

This topic is so frustrating and the internet reactions have been disgusting, but you did a great job of breaking it down and getting to the (unfortunately typical) root of the problem: the internet cannot handle complexities. Anyways, the little meows in the background gave me some smiles and relieved some of my tension so give the kitty an extra pat from me!

[@Mia199603]

I was so disheartened when I saw the overwhelming criticism and misogyny she got after the psychologist revealed her diagnosis. I'm a woman, I was a victim of several members of my family, all kinds of abuse, my father is a misogynistic psychopath and I was, as a result of this all abuse, diagnosed with several of the cluster b personality disorders, including histrionic and borderline. I'm not abusive towards anyone except myself. People suffering from BPD have already been very abused and villanized by the society, some psychologists don't even accept them as patients... I'm in constant turmoil, feel this overwhelming guilt for even being alive ALL THE TIME. I'm scared women will get even less help now after this trial. Nobody believed me, not even my closest friends, when I told them what my father had been doing to me. They believed him because he was a man and I was a teenage girl craving attention (not my perception of myself). I was fighting back whenever I could and that also discredited me because victims are supposed to be docile and scared all the time. This is such bullshit... I recognize Johnny's pain but why do we have to put down all women at every occasion?

[@Jordan-nw4sj]

Sincere question, why do you feel her being openly diagnosed with bpd Will demonize the condition? I’m an abuse survivor and also have bpd and I don’t feel like the doctor villanized the disorders at all, just spoken about how they present in amber and the generally symptoms of the disorder. For the record, 3 out of the 4 people I personally know with bpd have abused their partners and had to seek intensive therapy to learn to manage their emotions. It’s obviously not all people, but I do think it’s a little weird to pretend like it isn’t a common symptom of the distress caused by the disorder. I don’t think objectively speaking about it demonizes it’s, but I’d love to hear your thoughts.

[@Mia199603]

@@Jordan-nw4sj I think the psychologist could've mentioned more how the disorder is very painful foremost to the patient but she kinda skipped that part and focused on how this disorder affects the people around them. This isn't fair. But anyways I only mentioned what I observed in the comments. People have difficulties comprehending complexities in such situations. The majority of what I saw simply labeled BPD as monsters, Amber as a psycho. And it's been like this before this trial, but since the trial is so public it certainly won't help the BPD who are not violent, who are not "monsters" and are simply trying to live their life and be open about their condition. They'll be connected to Amber and her behavior. People are very keen on seeing other people as evil cartoon villains - that's very rarely the case. Hasn't it been very popular to call women with signs of HPD or simply women who express their emotions histerical, and to completely discredit their emotions because they're theatrical? Does theatrical behavior mean the emotions underneath aren't real, the pain isn't real? Their couples counselor said the abuse between these two was mutual - and I believe that. There was a tape of Amber crying and asking Johnny to stay with her, explaining how much this hurts and he left her anyways. How many situations like this has she experienced from him before the things got heated? He said himself that he always left when they had a disagreement. Sorry but if a person with BPD has this agonizing fear of abandonment and is abandoned regularly then that's abuse. They should've just broken up the minute they noticed their conflict resolution style is incompatible. My ex-boyfriend did this to me on purpose hundreds of times because my begging boosted his ego, he relished in my pain - and I've never had any drama with my fiancé, in 6 years of our relationship because he isn't cruel and trying to hurt me on purpose. If your partner wouldn't like it if you opened the blinds in the sun because they had photosensitivity - would you do that anyway and scream "normal people don't mind the sun, shut up" or would you consider their feelings?

[@Jordan-nw4sj]

@@Mia199603 first, I really appreciate you writing out such a well thought respond. she did mention that the emotions, reactions and fear amber felt were genuine, but I do see where she could’ve taken more time to explain that. I do agree the internet can be brutal and totally see how commenters are demonizing bpd- but they would do that with anything. Plenty of people are villanizing Johnny for being a drug addict, not that it makes it better, just an example that folks will always revert back to centuries old stereotypes. I’m not sure how to Combat that. I do agree they should’ve split, since Johnny’s response was to de-escalate and leave when amber got erratic. What’s hard for me is prior to treatment I was like amber during fights, I can empathize so much wit her pain and delusion. Those feelings of abandonment are real, and the distortion of reality can be difficult for both parties. I do disagree that leaving her is abusive just because she has bpd and feelings of abandonment. If someone is verbally abusing you, you have every right to leave. It’s totally different if he’s leaving her just to distress her further, but there’s no indication it was vindicated, but that he was trying to deescalate the situation. I’ve been the partner desperate to force them to sit and talk, not to leave the room, and through lots of therapy I’ve learned it’s incredibly unhealthy and selfish to try to force someone to speak to you when they need space. Forcing someone to break boundaries because you aren’t in control of your emotions and you feel like you must have them there isn’t okay. People have the right to space when they ask for it. It’s very difficult and one of my major struggles, my inability to give space and time, but that’s MY responsibility to fix, it’s not my husbands job to cater to that if he isn’t in the right head space. I hope that doesn’t come off as judgy , just sharing my perspective.

[@Mia199603]

@@Jordan-nw4sj we don't know the situation between them, how the fights started, how he acted in the beginning of the relationship, how open she has been about her feelings and whether he was supportive or dismissive, what he was like when he was drinking - for instance my grandpa was an alcoholic, I don't remember him being abusive but I did feel extremely uncomfortable and had an aversion to alcohol, it was traumatic to me, he was scary. I also saw Johnny smashing the kitchen - which was triggering to me as a victim of physical violence, the sole expression of such rage starts a trauma response in me even though I usually try to act tough and won't admit it to anyone. I wasn't abusive towards my ex and he still kept splitting during fights he provoked over absolutely nothing. I had to keep explaining myself and he left in the middle. It was 100% abuse and he knew it, I didn't at the time - I blamed myself, I didn't connect the dots from his behavior to my responses and why he kept doing it so often, I felt like I deserved to be abandoned and so I tried even harder to be the perfect girlfriend. But there's something that we need to address: abuse is what the victim feels, not what the perpetrator would call it - I can assure you that my father didn't think his blatant misogyny was abuse but 20 years later I still struggle with internalized misogyny, my sexuality, my body, I can quite confidently say that he has destroyed me in some way. Again we don't know the situation between them but I can empathize with both. Although what I see is that the overwhelming majority has compassion towards Johnny's addiction but not towards Amber's disorders. Mental health is mental health, I wish them both healing and taking responsibility for whatever happened, but being abusive isn't in the criteria for neither BPD nor HPD so I don't want the stigma to be assigned to us BPD or HPD folks. Personality disorders are already greatly misunderstood as they are, the crazy girlfriend stereotype is well and alive but crazy boyfriend doesn't exist even tho 48% of those diagnosed with BPD are men. Another thing is that Johnny wasn't diagnosed for this trial - why? He shows some symptoms of BPD too so that would be funny if he'd receive the same diagnosis :D I just watched Dr. Fox's video about this trial - it's on KZbin, I recommend you see it too, he's a great specialist and is very compassionate towards us people with BPD, it's uncanny. I'm not going to feel guilty for what Amber did just because we have the same diagnosis and neither should the public see us as guilty for this reason alone.

[@Mia199603]

One more thing I forgot to address in your comment, sorry: catering to my needs vs being mindful of them instead of exploiting my weaknesses. I didn't say anything about my fiancé having to cater to my needs. He simply doesn't abuse me by blatantly neglecting my needs. We have a healthy relationship with lots of time spent apart (we're both kind of loners). There's a difference between saying "look I need some time, can we talk later" which he sometimes says and I fully respect that although I do ask if he is alright and is there anything I can do. My ex just walked out and ghosted me for a few days. Sometimes he did answer but in a mocking way. This is the nuanced difference between my fiancé being considerate and my ex being abusive.

[@cameron9177]

this whole thing has been rubbing me the wrong way and since everyone else i've talked to has had such a black and white view of it, i've been brushing my own discomfort to the side. thank you for articulating this so well and helping me to better understand my own feelings.

[@gremli7778]

SAME

[@macandfries6765]

THANK YOU!! IVE SEEN SO MANY PEOPLE MAKING LIKE "top 10 funny edits from the court case about a man being abused for months" VIDEOS AND ITS SO ANNOYING

[@benjirivoh]

thats hella gross

[@stupidass69420]

It’s so exploitative

[@theimplications635]

this is what Depp wants though

[@stickynotes2040]

@@theimplications635 Where does Depp's say that it's okay to be making edits about a dosmetic abuse court case his involved in? And even if he did want it, the people making those videos aren't* suddenly morally clear.

[@theimplications635]

@@stickynotes2040 They aren't morally clear but this is what he wants a public celebration of him and humiliation of Heard.

[@inthedriversseat928]

I'm really glad that someone is talking about this. From what I've seen, both sides have done some pretty problematic things. Not all abuse is physical, and it's necessary to understand that too. Some of what Johnny has done on recordings has been emotionally abusive andthe same with Amber. But you're right that none of us can possibly know exactly what happened between them behind closed doors. I don't like the hashtag teams, and I have seen the misogyny you talked about in the comments of every video and article about it. It's good to see that called out. This is the only nuanced take I've seen so far and I thoroughly appreciate it.

[@0-79kmj]

Hate the fact that ppl talk ab this situation like they know everything ab them an their Relationship

[@alyssapinon9670]

Probably why it took so long for this video to come out. Kuncan wasn’t just gonna spew outrage baity content for views and controversy

[@samanthamakesasmr]

The response that people have is so odd coming from a “believe victims” mentality, because everyone has to convince us that the person they want to “win” is the only victim. But I feel like if you truly believe victims, you kind of believe both of them, until things are proven wrong.

[@biguattipoptropica]

That's why my friend and I stopped discussing the case for a few years. Once there was audio of Amber Heard admitting to abuse and Johnny Depp clearly being the victim... We knew and we started discussing it again.

[@TheQueen-sw4th]

Amber still has no proof tho

[@zorro......]

@@TheQueen-sw4th she has had 12 out of 14 cases of johnny depp being a wife beater proven in court. it is legally proven that jd physically abused ah. youre choosing what info you want to see and to be blind to the rest because it feeds the perception you already have and the narrative you already believe about the case.

[@bananabrain2996]

Im not keen to both side an abuse argument, that's often used to dismiss victims. But i think it's just something we don't need to engage in, none of us have anything useful to add

[@alyssapinon9670]

@@biguattipoptropica my experience exactly. Wasn’t gonna take any sides until we had some hard evidence come out

[@taraaarat]

One conversation that I keep being reminded of in this is one where the boys in my high school law and society class were giggling when they had pulled up the website that shows where child abusers are. They were “so surprised” that there might be child abusers in our small town that they didn’t stop to think that that possibly means there could be victims of that in their own class. They were so insensitive it made me very angry and I had to cry in the school psychologist office after that

[@KelseyHontz]

I was so hoping you'd talk about this because I've been so disturbed by the internet's reaction so far, and getting your level-headed, compassionate response to things always makes my brain and heart feel a little better.

[@elen5871]

god, same. plus then I can read the comments and be like "ah good, I'm not completely insane, there are at the very least dozens of us."

[@l33machine]

That first tweet with Depp saying the funny pirate line reads like a 2014 Tumblr Post written by a 14 year old dear god

[@izalizbug]

Also, it's a defamation trial. At the end of the day, they are only trying to prove if his career suffered. At its core, the purpose of the trial isn't about whether or not abuse occurred or who. That's why Amber hasn't been cross-examined. In the legal sense, this is more about money lost and reputation than it is about domestic violence. It's a civil case and not a criminal case... we need to remember that.

[@hitomie246]

im no law expert so im wondering why there isn’t a trial for the abuse, or has there already been one?

[@tasfiasalsabil2549]

@@hitomie246 im not a law expert either but unless johnny or amber go to court for an abuse trial,the court cant put a trial and i dont think they have.Im not sure so dont take this as a fact

[@Jordan-nw4sj]

@@hitomie246 amber got a restraining order while Johnny was out of the country and immediately dropped it once he returned and never pressed charges.

[@zorro......]

@@hitomie246 she had 12 out of 14 cases of him being a wifebeater proven in court bc he had claimed that her calling her abuser in an article (unnamed, but it clearly referred to him) a 'wifebeater' was defamation but turned out to be true and provably so lol

[@aishah7730]

@@hitomie246 bc johnny is not a victim of abuse and he doesn’t care about standing up for victims like his fans say. he only cares about swindling public opinion against amber and making her relive her trauma as payback for even standing up against him.

[@mb.774]

Given America's obsession with celebrities and a large population that hates "cancel culture" (accountability) and "wokeness" (understanding privilege and discrimination), it makes sense that people are going so hard for their celebrity faves. It's gross, but it makes sense. But like...we're talking about abuse, maybe we should reel it the fuck in. I also really appreciate your sentiments about Amber Heard being people's scapegoat for the MeToo movement. There are so many conversations that should be happening that are being overlooked because people are on this like they're supporting their favorite football team. Thank you for having this conversation and bringing nuance into it because good gooley goo do we need it.

[@gateauxq4604]

Except that here ‘celebrity faves’ often boils down to does the person want the man or woman to win. It’s not even people upset that Captain Jack may have beaten his wife, it’s just guys wanting to feel validated again after ‘suffering’ for years under metoo. Im so tired.

[@0-79kmj]

@@gateauxq4604 "suffering"? 🤔 i know you put it in quotations, but if you could explain, please.

[@ridanann]

Looking at the culture is a pretty good way figuring things out to be honest I'm not sure why I'm here I'm not American and it's a Media Circus with no validity or relevance to my life but as you say Americans are obsessed with it so maybe I see a lot of media about it so it's sort of wiggles away in my brain. If it was to regular people nobody would be interested you throw in a celebrity like Johnny Depp and apparently Amber Heard though I've never heard of her and suddenly people are interested then you had poop on the bed and well now it's pretty damn funny in a juvenile kind of way. my interest is a bit of a mystery to me ubiquity I suppose I have no idea how obsessed Americans are the frequency of stuff I see may be directly related to that fundamentally I don't give a s*** either way I like Johnny Depp but he is a adult who has ended up in a f***** up situation something should be done about that same go to the irrelevant blonde lady who leaves fecal matter strange places whatever her name is lol. My emotional reaction to domestic violence is simple if your spouse hits you get a divorce don't stay or face the consequences which are being presented like a piece of fecal matter on a bed it ain't pretty America basically the car crash on the side of the road turned into a country.

[@alyssapinon9670]

@@0-79kmj aka being held accountable for creepy “nice guy” behavior that makes women uncomfortable m

[@0-79kmj]

@@alyssapinon9670 oh I get it now thank u

[@pagodrink]

Thank you for making this video. I'm just disgusted with how casual companies and private people are talking about this case like it's a drama series on Netflix.

[@Sarah04527]

Well said! People are acting like these are tv scenes, not real humans

[@olivyaaaaaa]

As someone who grew up in an abusive household it physically makes me sick seeing the fancams and the “Jonny being savage🥶🥵” and I feel the exact same way so ty for making a video and putting all those thoughts into words

[@micheller3251]

Honeslty what I find the most frustrating is how discussions around mental health and substance abuse have become tools to attack and defend each sides. And the lawyers are definitely using it too. Being unstable is used as both a proof of guilt and of innocence, which is exactly what mental health related advocacy is trying to eliminate, because it fuels harmful ideas and hurts everyone who struggles with any issues related to this trial. I hate it, I hate it so much.

[@castallyourspells5330]

Thanks for making this, whenever I saw people say things about how he should play the pirate theme or refer to himself as Jack Sparrow a bit of me died inside, wondering how no one saw what was wrong with even implying that he would ever consider doing that.

[@Louale22]

It’s also known that abuse victims start “abusing back” as a way to rebel against the abuser. I haven’t been following the trial closely, but that could be a possible outcome. It’s weird that people are choosing sides

[@tintinismybelgian]

Correction: It's not a domestic abuse trial. It's a defamation trial.

[@littlerelief]

This comment said some uninformed stuff that I was made to internalize by a professional who may not have had my best interests at heart, and I'mma clean the slate so no one else sees it and decides I'm right. I was not right. See comment thread for deets if you're so inclined.

[@GrayYeonWannabe]

mutually abusive is not a thing

[@GrayYeonWannabe]

a relationship can be mutually toxic. but toxicity is not the same thing as abuse

[@littlerelief]

@Cassandra Tafoya Thank you for saying this. I was taught something very different in therapy (basically what I said above), and I think I may have been misled into taking on more responsibility for my situation than I really deserved.

[@littlerelief]

@Kuncan Dastner KZbin is a strange place to be having this epiphany but thanks for providing such a great venue to have these discussions, my dude, you're basically curating a rose garden in the middle of a constant neverending shitstorm and it's appreciated.

[@Jordan-nw4sj]

There is literally no such thing as a mutually abusive relationship. Please speak to any domestic violence counselors before spreading harmful misinformation like this. In abusive relationships there is a primary aggressor and a victim. The victim can be provoked into reactive abuse but it is not the same as mutual abuse and is defense mechanism. You cannot equate reactive abuse and primary abuse. Spreading misinformation like this is harmful and demonizes survivors.

[@muhammadmustjaab4703]

The amount of times I've seen thumbnails with 'JOHNNY DEPP DESTROYS HEARD''S LAWYERS ' over the course of this trial is insane, it's like 2016 with the whole 'SJW GETS THEIR SHIT ROCKED' over again

[@hshackleton678]

So many people seem to also forget that BOTH people in a relationship can be abusive, too. The fact that neither 'side' truly seems to be acknowledging that both parties can be abusive people simultaneously baffles me. Then, it's not a matter of "who started it" or "who was the most worst" - both people are flawed and shouldn't be free from consequence

[@quinzequinze]

Exactly, exactly. I commented something to this effect on another video about the trial and got dog piled on. People want so badly to cling to a black-and-white dichotomy where there has to be a good guy and a bad guy when in reality it’s more likely they’re both very complex, damaged, and violent people whose relationship was a powder keg.

[@cidevant002]

Please read on what reactive abuse is. Mutual abuse is a lie often used by abusers to avoid responsability. A victim lashing out when they are in pain Is not and should never be taken as the same as when they were abused in the first place.

[@atuvera9021]

It was hard and hurtful to hear those audio recordings where Depp was saying all those nasty things and self harming...Even more hard to not emphatize with one side. The best thing is to not put more fuel into the fire... but i can't deny that Amber Heard has proven how manipulative she was and made a bunch of DA survivors pick Johnny's side. So sad that he went that route and i wish healing for him.

[@hshackleton678]

@@cidevant002 abuse being reactive doesn't make someone innocent; it doesn't stop them from being abusive first later down the line. Furthermore, *we do not know if one or either of them are partaking in reactive abuse.* It is completely possible for one person to abuse in one way, and then completely unrelated to that the other person abuses in another way. They're both still abuse?? I think such a situation like this is far to complex and entangled for anyone to be involved but the related parties.

[@quinzequinze]

@@cidevant002 I understand, but I don’t think that’s what was going on in this instance. Abusers definitely do use mutual abuse as a lie and excuse but that doesn’t mean it never happens. There are relationships where both parties are the instigator at different times. I agree that we should avoid jumping to the conclusion that it’s mutual before investigating the possibility that one of the parties is being victimized, but it’s disingenuous to say that mutual abuse doesn’t exist in interpersonal relationships.

[@BryonyClaire]

Meme culture and everyone feeling like we can make jokes about anything has brought us to this point. I fully agree with you on all points, it's very scary seeing how some people are celebrating "a woman being torn down", whatever happens in this trial, it sets precedence, that's huge. It's hard enough for victims to come forward, of any gender, and it's worrying what this means for the future

[@zanyantics8823]

you KNOW these people spouting misogynist shit will have their irl dude friends confide abuse they've experienced with them and they'll tell them to keep it to themselves, they don't give a shit about justice they just want vitriol pointed at the person they hate at the moment. seeing these videos in my recommended makes me so sick

[@thatboooiiiiyo]

I think it would be best to remove gender-based language when referring to domestic abuse cases in general. I'm glad this video was made because there is not enough nuance when regarding this situation.

[@aquaintsound]

As a non man nonbinary person, it was the first time I felt some relief when hearing people talk about this tire fire

[@Nakia11798]

True. In all cases, the people involved should just be referred to as Client A and Client B.

[@Motions.in.Lemonaid]

As someone with BPD I want to put this out there. Living with BPD makes being in a relationship extremely challenging. Emotions go from 0 to 100, fights will drag for hours, fear of abandonment drives you to keep/beg your partner to stay and not even break from a fight. You will back your partner into a corner and they may not act in a way they wouldn’t normally in a regular argument. This doesn’t excuse physical violence but harsh words said in desperation to escape a fight that seemingly wont end. I understand that from personal experience. I have great empathy for both of them. If you or a loved one is living with BPD, seek out DBT treatment. It saved my life and is proven to improve BPD symptoms. ❤️

[@saga685]

One thing that gets me is the way people reacted when Amber’s diagnoses were revealed (I think it was Borderline and Histrionic personality disorders). They’re acting like it’s proof that she’s the abuser and that’s enough for a guilty verdict. But this is a defamation trial, her diagnoses may be used to indicate that she didn’t _knowingly_ defame Johnny. Im not saying that’s right or wrong, but it irks me how everyone dogpiles the second a personality disorder is mentioned.

[@BogaP4X639]

It's been bothering me how people are jumping to the defense of one side or the other, when everything we know is coming from people we don't know, and from a trial that's not even close to halfway done. And it's been so strange seeing this topic as something that everyone is required to have an opinion about it, I have an opinion on domestic abuse but I don't have one on this specific case, and I don't need to.

[@Nakia11798]

My opinion is that faking domestic abuse is terrible.

[@MissCaraMint]

Maybe, but having actually heard a reccording of Amber verbally abusing Johnny while insisting that she didnt punch him just hit him, is pretty damning. Also the court case isn’t about whether or not Amber was abusive it’s about libal and defamation so the official verdict might not really clear anything up. We the public however have gotten to hear a lot of testemony, and see a lot of real evidence showing Amber in a not very nice light. So far I haven’t seen any convincing evidence from Amber’s team against Johnny though.

[@zorro......]

@@MissCaraMint the previous court case proving 12 out of 14 accounts of johnny depp being a wife beater is also pretty damning, if you ask me. more than an audio recording without context, given how the evidence for at least 12 separate accounts of jd abusing ah has had its evidence reviewed and then proven in court. also, the text jd sent to his friend saying he wanted to set amber on fire and then r*pe her corpse is pretty damning too, if you asked me.

[@samrafkin3699]

KZbin randomly decided to recommend me videos with the words "Amber Heard" in the title. This is the only one that I'm watching.

[@thedestroyasystem]

There’s one channel that’s made like 10 “watching Amber Heard until” vids that are like 15 seconds long each and have been blowing up on the algorithm. I’m sure the intentions are pure but that is the definition of milking the situation.

[@PikaChu-sp2qo]

ikr i made the mistake of watching one edit video of the trial out of morbid curiosity and now im being bombarded with recommendations

[@madiwhinter120]

They had a toxic relationship, where there was some sort of abuse from both sides. None of them is completely innocent. They're adults. And yes, the trial is for defamation, not to prove abuse on any side. At the end of the day, we will have no idea of what happened between them two. And that's okay, because they're people with real lives. Not a book, a movie, a TV show. It's not our place to know what happened.

[@hitomie246]

hi im no law expert but why isn’t there a trial for abuse for them? or has that already happened?

[@madiwhinter120]

@@hitomie246 there has been a trial some years ago, when they divorced she accused him of abuse and asked for a restraining order. That's when all of this exploded. And right now Johnny Depp is only trying to clear his name, he sued her 3 years ago I think for like 50 million dollars for defamation, ant that's the trial happening right now.

[@OpqHMg]

I just don't believe that people would be calling this situation mutually toxic if a woman were in Johnny Depp's place. The hypocrisy I've seen from so-called feminists here is really depressing. It's like we suddenly forget the "no perfect victims" concept when a guy with a history of substance abuse is involved. And sorry, but badmouthing your abusive ex to a friend in private does not make you toxic. Wtf 😒

[@madiwhinter120]

@@OpqHMg sorry but for a toxic relationship not to happen the "not toxic one" must end it right away. If not, if the person stay with the one who hurt them, them there is a toxic relationship. It's that simple

[@thecloset6520]

@@madiwhinter120 its not that easy, many stay in toxic relation ships just cuz its familiar, Depp has already been abused by his mother so id see how he could have felt about the relationship, or even try to fix it, idk if thats the case with Depp but it definitely is for many people, don't victim blame

[@d.h.4778]

I was just commenting back and forth with a dude about true feminism and how it includes male problems in the overall view of the patriarchy and our goal is to resolve those issues as well, and then he stopped talking to me and continued to boo hoo to anyone who took the outrage bait.

[@pom2704]

People are also forgetting that this is a defamation case. It isn’t about finding who abused who it’s about Johnny proving that ambers statements were entirely false

[@katekursive1370]

Basically a lot of people bring up male survivors' rights only to go "gottem!" which helps nobody

[@RK-em6fo]

Some DV/SA orgs say "start by believing" instead of simply "believe victims." It's about how if someone tells you they've experienced DV/SA you respond as if it is true instead of responding by doubting, blaming, or shaming the victim. The goal is to listen and then try to connect the individual with resources that can help them. I prefer this approach because it's centered on helping individuals and what you can do to help others. There isn't a 100% fool proof way to know if someone is telling you the truth, and most of us aren't qualified to make that determination, but we can listen when our friends, loved ones, and neighbors ask us for help. I may never know whether Johhny Depp or Amber Heard was the initial aggressor, but I know how I would respond if someone tells me their story, and I think that's more important. I would really recommend that people look up "Start by Believing." You never know when someone will need your help and there are lots of free resources online.

[@addy3520]

Your point about both of them seeing themselves as the victim just clicked in my brain right. That is such a good point and humanizes both of them.

[@kpr4225]

All of the comment sections under the court footage are filled with overzealous and overconfident people who know nothing about judiciary system, critiquing how the lawyers and the judge deal with the case. I get that you like Johnny, guys, but blindly cussing out the judge just because she lets the lawyers speak is not the way imo. I guess my solution should be to avoid KZbin comments, eh?

[@maxrona137]

No need to apologize for cat sounds, unless you were apologizing for not making them yourself, in which case, MEOW DOWN

[@WarStainedPurple]

The way you approach all of your topics is so top tier. Just full of such kindness and mindfulness. Genuinely so refreshing:)

[@ride-playerbb2818]

To be fair, this is most likely the intended reaction. It gives the whole case more publicity, so even if Johnny Depp loses, he still wins the court of public opinion while Amber Heard is seen in a _very_ negative light

[@kochanieTM]

I appreciate this discourse. I think it’s worth mentioning that both sides displaying abusive behaviors does not negate that there is usually an antagonizer in an abusive relationship. I think that this mentality of both sides were abusive further isolates those that are being antagonized. For example, a peer of mine discounted that their partner had hit them because they threw a glass. Both would be considered violent behaviors but differing greatly in reason and harm. I would argue that rarely people coming out of abusive relationships will claim that they had never lashed out or been toxic. There’s only so much cornering a person can take until they retaliate in some way or another. Please just keep this in mind when someone “both sides” a narrative.

[@null9546]

I know this is a very important and serious topic, but "Uncle Duncle" will be stuck in my head for the next several days

[@kisikisikisi]

As the child of an alcoholic father, the "poor innocent johnny uwu" bs drives me up the wall. It does seem like he is a victim of dv, whether he's also a perpetrator remains to be seen. But he's not your baby who could do no wrong, he's an almlst 60-year-old man who chose to be drunk in front of his kids.

[@ilexdiapason]

yes! he is most likely a victim but that is not an excuse to infantilise a grown man and father

[@genoswest7253]

Not only that but the guys a child r*pe apologist and groomed Winona Ryder but everyone seems to forget that part :^/ (this isn’t me saying he deserves DV or anything of that matter btw !!)

[@zorro......]

remains to be seen? 12 out of 14 cases of him being a wifebeater were proven in court. he has sent texts to his friends saying he wants to set AH on fire and then desecrate the corpse. idk what to tell u other than: it Has been proven, people are just choosing to ignore and forget that.

[@miminkotube]

Alcoholic people don't "choose to be drunk"

[@chaitanya8126]

@@zorro...... "somebodys assaulting me. Oh no I am in the wrong,i may have done something wrong to provoke the assaulter" Fqin hell 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

[@adelined]

THANK YOU. i think there's something to say about the fact that so many people have latched on to a case of a false abuse claim, as if it proves that more abuse cases are also false. it's crazy. and also, i've never liked a single one of these videos and they're all over my fyp. why is tiktok pushing these weird detective videos and fancams?

[@Sarah04527]

I don’t use tik tok but my KZbin shorts are primarily clips from the trial! I don’t like them pushing it either

[@ally939]

It’s all over my KZbin recommendations, too, it’s really weird This is the first video I’ve watched about it, too

[@Zurflu]

I think way too many people don't even realize this is a defamation case, not a criminal abuse case. If they both abused each other, which seems to be what most people believe, Amber will win this case as she did not defame him by saying he abused her. But ppl are going to freak out since they don't even know what this trial is for. Get ready for Men's Rights and incels to go crazy...

[@hakimchulan]

Yeah I think so too :(

[@0-79kmj]

and they'll just use yhat as an excuse to be a piece of shit, not cuz they actually care ab @buse against men. sigh.

[@Teefs001]

I've never interacted with content/media about this case and yet YT has been recommending those court edits A LOT lately... This vid was respectfully done, great job as usual

[@heavymetalbanshee]

The term innocent until proven guilty needs to start being taken seriously. Even for the most heinous of crimes. Because the potential consequence for an innocent person, who is found innocent at the end is horrendous. Regardless of outcome you can still be considered guilty, in option, by others and can be life ruining. I don't understand why people spend decades in prison (even for murder etc) if they have not been PROVEN as guilty. The system is broken. Beyond repair probably.

[@currybread5298]

Agree!

[@Apudurangdinya]

Yeah like horrendous criminals got their face blurred and hide from public, while people who accused of something they are not proven yet, plastered through everything

[@newhopeelena]

I'm so glad you made a video about this, it's not just the fact that I really like the way you talk about important topics, I also wanted to learn more about this heartbreaking situation, that unfortunately is very common :(

[@some_williott]

I really appreciate you making this video! I've gotten some really weird looks from people when they've asked me who's "side" I'm on and I said "neither"

[@suiennui1095]

"We need to be able to talk about male victims of domestic abuse without being misogynistic"

[@Nakia11798]

I don't think her BPD is proof if guilt, but I do k ow from experience that people with BPD are more prone to violence and emotional harm. Now, so are people with substance abuse issues. However, I feel that the evidence is stacked against Heard so far. Like if he was abusing her, why did she have to fake bruises with makeup?

[@MissCaraMint]

@@Nakia11798 I genuenly think she felt that his refusal to engage in fights with her really triggered her abandonment issues. He apparently would leave and remove himself from situations that would escalate, because hof his former abuse by hos mother. Amber would then react badly becuase his trauma responce triggered her trauma responce, and she would get violent. They were obviously very bad for each other. However, it was Amber’s own responcibillity to know not to physically assault someone. She was the abuser here, but she probably feels like she is the victim. So faking the brueses was her atempt at «getting back at him because he deserves it». Of course that’s just my interpretation of what I have read of the case.

[@lizb7271]

I recall reading an article, some time ago, arguing that one can believe both Heard and Depp. The abuse of the latter by the former is not mutually exclusive with the converse.

[@margaret19631]

This reminds me so much of the Michael Jackson case. So many people on his “side” act like they personally know these people and were there themselves, when absolutely nobody except Michael Jackson and his accusers know what happened

[@GrayYeonWannabe]

just a psa: there's no such thing as "mutually abusive." victims of abuse often fight back (physically, verbally, emotionally), but it doesnt make them "just as abusive." (ftr i dont think thats what hes saying, i just felt it necessary to say) edit: oop yeah it was necessary to say, i scrolled down and saw someone claiming exactly that whooops 🙄

[@LezbeOswald]

yeah. relationships can be mutually _toxic,_ but abuse _requires_ some kind of disproportionate power balance, and it's not possible for both parties to be simultaneously more powerful and less powerful than the other.

[@IndieHellCat]

@Cassandra Tafoya I think the problem with this example though is that it ignores the level a couple is enmeshed - in a clear case of bullying generally the victim wants the bully to be removed from the situation, that's not the case with abuse. I think there's also a problem with a black and white understanding of what abuse is, and where the line gets drawn. how can we tell between toxic behaviour and abuse? can a relationship be violent and not abusive?

[@pleuriglosse8198]

It definitely does exist in some situations but I agree that its really fucking gross to say that someone is 'just as abusive' for fighting back. I dont know if this makes sense?? but basically i agree with you but dont agree that its something that doesnt exist

[@aquaintsound]

Mutual abuse is very real Because abuse is a spectrum, although it's usually called situational couple violence. Yes abusers may lie about being abuse victims, and people may fight back with a small amount of abusive tactics because of trauma (and still be in enough of a power imbalance where they're mostly victimized) but that's not the case here. The sheer amount of evidence across multiple years changes the dynamic to "who came first, the chicken or the egg" problem. Abuse is a spectrum, and pretending it's not is an example of binary thinking that makes comprehensive abuse conversations like this difficult to have on a public scale. As an abuse victim who did fight back and thus internalized some abusive behavior, acknowledging that part of behavior was abusive too was important because otherwise I would be spreading that abusive behavior onto my next partner. I used to think mutual abuse couldn't exist because as an abuse survivor I couldn't understand how an abuser could also be abused. After years of working with domestic violence support and extensive study on cycles of abuse, part of this also relies on binary genders playing a role in public perceptions.

[@JudahDeNose]

You always manage to put things that make me uncomfortable into words.

[@treegrilld]

^^^

[@frnkrry8938]

10:24 I don’t think that the issue with male dv can be described as simply as “they’re expected to be strong” though. It’s worth acknowledging that lots of people (mostly men!!!) believe a woman is incapable of either committing dv (because they’re considered not strong enough) or committing sa (because theyre considered objects of desire that no man would say no to), and there is misogyny in that as well that affects male victims negatively. Women definitely do not have it easy, and there may be something worth discussing when someone says “nobody believes a man when the abuser is a woman”, it all comes from the same place, and everyone would benefit from feminism

[@currybread5298]

Yes, I agree

[@wishbone-p4550]

God I was just talking about this thank you so much I've been really blindsided by a lot of youtubers i like treating the case as if it's entertainment

[@Monicalia]

Recently I saw a tweet that said: ''what we are seeing is two deeply troubled individuals whose codependant and volatile relationship has come undone. The big difference is that one is trying to do better and move forward, and one won't admit their issues and is living in the past'' and I actually really agree with it.

[@ren-sk7yz]

Thankyou for bringing this conversation to your channel. The way people are blasting amber & defending Johnny when no one personally knows either of them or what happened behind closed doors is so depressing. The fact that people are using amber as an example for “women lying about assault” is disgusting, we don’t know if she’s lying, we don’t know if she’s not, we know Johnny had his part in the abuse, & use of alcohol & drugs, we know he said & did disgusting things, & we know amber did bad things too, just because her maneurisms are “weird” to us doesn’t mean that makes her a lier, it means she’s in an intense & public situation where she’s being constantly put on blast & Johnny being put on a pedestal, people saying people with Winona Ryder saying “he never abused me so I don’t know” is her saying amber is a lier is disgusting because just because she didn’t have that experience (or didn’t express it due to the abuse she would get from the public if she did) doesn’t mean amber hasn’t had that experience. I think both are wrong for each other & toxic & the fact that Johnny is being blindly defended & amber is being disgustingly abused by the public is so screwed up. They both did bad things. Neither is clear, neither is perfect. People need to stop blindly defending Johnny & attacking amber, people are having such disgusting conversations & it makes me feel sick. No wonder women don’t come forward, no wonder men are so powerful. I’m just so sad about this whole thing & don’t feel safe giving my opinions that they’re both in the wrong even in some of my faves videos because of the blind support & abuse being thrown at amber & anyone who supports or gives her & him the benefit of the doubt that they both screwed up, it’s always “she’s the worst & so are you he’s an angel🤬🤬🤬🤬”

[@officialnyasa]

These are 2 famous actors with strong PR teams. Nothing outside of that court will be all the info. Its just a fight to sway public opinion with information that gets "leaked". We don't know these people and I hate when people try to act like they know them personally. They're strangers in the middle of a domestic abuse case.

[@LezbeOswald]

people really are treating this trial like petty celebrity drama or like a tv show or something. i hate it here.

[@Ollie_nel]

I would love a whole video on how the internet loves to be detectives in real life cases. Another time this happened recently was with Gabby Petito (I probably spelled her name wrong, but you know what I mean).

[@lemonace6695]

There is at least one part in EVER modern true crime documentary (not yt videos or podcast, true legitimate documentaries with permisionfrom the victim's family) about the internet trying to solve the crime and with the exception of that guy with the cats they ALWAYS make it worse. How om earth people look at these track history and still try it's beyond me.

[@aheedehee6290]

As someone who has been following this since 2015 and has believed both sides at different points, the way that the wrong part of the internet took this into it's clutches and made it an "uwu this person couldn't harm a fly because their smile is so pwecious 🥺." For years it was a genuine analytical and emotional thing going on that people took seriously and rarely if ever joked about no matter whose side they were on. Many people who have experienced abuse have chimed in and have put their heart, souls, and personal trauma into their opinions. This has been a very touchy case since the very beginning and should have never been talked about the way it is now. While I strongly do believe one side more than the other, it's all still my singular college student opinion. I'm not a psychiatrist, I'm not a lawyer, and I don't know these people personally to know exactly what happened. I never will. We'll probably never know the full truth. Hell, Depp or Heard probably don't know the truth themselves. Hollywood is just a fucked up place and we have to remember that.

[@Wrt23as]

Thank fuck a sensible person talking about this. I am so, so sick of these quippy, ironic, highly edited "x being y"-videos of a fucking domestic abuse court case being recommended to me despite never engaging with it. This memefication of violence and trauma makes social media a triggering and hostile space for survivors who this should actually be about regardless of gender.

[@auriletinmirielle7004]

They try to use the violence of either Johnny Depp or Amber Heard as a proof of guilt. But in an abusive relationship the victim can also lash out and becomes violent as well. That's why the court has to figure out who's guilty ! It's too complicated for a random person. (Sorry is my sentences are weird, It's not my first language)

[@Douliette]

As usual, you manage to put into words what my adhd brain tried to explain just a few hours ago lmao, i'll just stop talking and send this vid to everyone, it's exactly what i needed, thanks kuncan!

[@maggiethebalancer]

thank you for letting me know that when i texted my best friend "i want to fucking kill him" after i got the shit beat out of me that i was perpetuating abuse. i never realized that texting one of my friends something violent about someone who'd physically abused me could count as emotional abuse. i'm so greatful that you've helped me learn how to be the perfect victim. god forbid i find myself in the situation of being in a physically/emotionally abusive relationship, i know to only speak about it in positive, victimless terms. if i hadn't provoked him as much, he wouldn't have hit me. he was only mad about my weed smoking habit, if i had just stopped being addicted to it he wouldn't've gotten as mad as he did. i should never have yelled at him, or fought back, because that only made the situation a mutually abusive one, and i see that now. thank you.

[@hitomie246]

really irritating when the most people want out of this case is whether or not their favorite actor is gonna get casted. that should be the LEAST you should worry about when this whole thing ends. they have mountains of money, they’re not going homeless for not getting a role calm down

[@gatita33D]

As a victim of abuse I have to disagree about the taking sides thing, I want someone to take my side, I want for my abuser to be condemned and shamed for what they did because that would at least give me some sense of justice, of course it’s important to be removed form an abusive situation first but this idea that there shouldn’t be sides is something I have to disagree with, and I think it’s important to look to victims of abuse in times like this and listen to their input because they can teach us far more about this topic than anyone who hasn’t suffered through it.

[@pozzsicle]

That point was more or less about us not having enough information to say who's the victim, so taking a side a just, not a very good thing at the moment? Or that's at least the impression I got. I'm also pretty sure Duncan has said multiple times before that, if there is enough proof, we SHOULD side with the victim, and I don't think he'd suddenly change his view on that.

[@gatita33D]

As much as I understand that, there is some evidence that people don’t consider because it’s psychological and because psychology is not a hard science it’s usually dismissed but if you consider all the psychological signs, they point to Johnny depp being a victim of abuse and I think the reason he has as much support as he does is because other victims of abuse see that too, we recognise in him signs and behaviours that we ourselves experienced during our abuse. It’s also why this idea of them being mutually abusive is absurd, any person who has been in that situation can tell you that they have done things in order to protect themselves that they aren’t proud of but it’s a defence mechanism and it does not make you an abuser, sadly by defending yourself in anyway, your abuser will take advantage of that as a way to shame you and tell you that you’re just as bad as them or that no one will believe you because of how you’re acting, pushing victims further into a corner. A lot of victims after getting out of abusive situation then go into therapy for many reasons but one of them being this distortion of how they see themselves and how they normally are verses the person they became in order to survive their situation which are two very different things.

[@rose-vn2jd]

The thing that scares me the most about this hole thing is that if she is lying this will prevent so many victims from coming forward and it will put back in a time where society doubted women

[@freethegays]

We have never not lived in a time where society doesn't doubt women tho...

[@blueberrymuffin36]

unfortunately we very much still are in a time where society doubts women, theres just a subset of society that does not. but yeah whenever something like this happens people use it as "proof" for why some other unrelated woman must be lying and the "real" abuser in a situation. its very frustrating

[@lindenshepherd6085]

That’s what happened to me when I took my case to Title IX at my school. Because one of our mutual friends had lied about being abused in a relationship and I called her out on it previously, my own truth was called into question as to why I wasn’t supportive, and then when I had to make it clear why I didn’t believe her, my answers were twisted and used by his lawyer to pretend I had pulled the same shite.

[@rose-vn2jd]

@@lindenshepherd6085 I'm so sorry you had to go through this I hope it gets better

[@lindenshepherd6085]

@@rose-vn2jd Me too.

[@paul4archery]

i lost my cat a few weeks ago and it was really nice to see one in this video. thanks Kuncan

[@elodiepollock7326]

i love me someone who talks nuanced about current topics!! new to your channel and love it here so far! also appreciated the cat chomping on the phone

[@downdismal]

I always appreciate your level-headedness and impartiality when covering controversial topics. I wish more commentators were capable of this kind of discussion

[@Catbooks]

Thank you. You give me hope. Things have gotten even worse, unbelievably, since you made this video. But hearing you, and seeing this video has 10k upvotes does give me hope. What's that saying, it's always darkest before the dawn.

[@ErisIsAnAbomination]

During the height of this, a clothing brand I used to follow posted an IG Story asking whether their followers were “Team Johnny or Team Amber” and had quirky outfits using their products assigned to either side. Fastest unfollow of my life.

[@Quinnie0821]

For a while, I had to step back from commentary because I thought all the commentary youtubers were corrupt or overdramatic. Then I found your channel and you gave me hope that maybe one day the internet can have mature conversations. Thanks, Duncan. More people need to hear you speak!

[@owlgovernment]

I really appreciate you making this and your nuanced take on the situation. It’s been really frustrating how inescapable this has been online and with the way a lot of people have been treating it.

[@ryanshapero2631]

Hey Duncan. I think it was very cool of you to post this for my birthday. very thoughtful

[@isabella-mw7ld]

you're the only youtuber i've seen with at least a semi sane take on this. i've ended up just unsubscribing from so many others that are presenting their opinions with little to no care or delicacy for such a nuanced situation.