How We Fixed GANONDORF in Smash Ultimate

[@hallowarp4580]

Easy just give him float true to the game and a cool mechanic

[@gowdmc]

I recommended it but didn't talk about it 😔

[@andremorrison7626]

He'd be busted. Float cancel aerials?

[@cheeselover7368]

He’d still be bad think abt it his arials are way 2 slow

[@nojopark9402]

I suggested that too bro

[@cheeselover7368]

Andre Morrison people wouldn’t fall out of his nair but he doesn’t have any combos to take advantage of his nairs try out tanooki on Ganon

[@dombromflump627]

“Giving him great kill power with a fast move speed would be unfairly broken.” *Sweats in bowser*

[@abrahamcoronelbeltran6033]

Meanwhile cloud from ssb4: speed, range and power

[@UnusuallyLargeCrab]

*laughs in koopa*

[@excaliburzx1134]

And Bowser has fucking Tough Guy armor and then there’s Pyra who does tons of damage, a powerful spike, a projectile, has even bigger hit boxes and has Mythra

[@elephantmarch]

True, though Bowser's still a big target and suffers from recovery compared to other characters, so it's a bit more balanced. Basically with Bowser you beat him by now giving him time to move, as is usually the case with the heavy's, BUT it's a lot scarier to approach him.

[@thebigcroc6469]

“Practical edgeguarding” *Does a very risky side b offstage*

[@wowftw120]

LOL

[@brennanelledge3150]

It’s Ganondorf, anything less would’ve have been unacceptable.

[@jasomega2446]

Ganondorf needs to stop fully holding back his full Power.

[@rccarfan4865]

Jason V he needs to use the full triforce

[@alexbaribeault]

@@rccarfan4865 Canon Kirby: Finally, a worthy opponent

[@btu1734]

Alex Baribeault it’s hilarious cuz it’s so true. Kirby is canonically one of the if not the strongest character in smash lol

[@jasomega2446]

Daviid Akinbo yup.

[@wowftw120]

@@alexbaribeault but Kirby is cringe and only nerds and dweebs play it

[@Pigmcginnyrig]

How to fix Ganendorf Step one: Make a new F-Zero game Step two: Add a new character that is similar to captain falcon Step three: Add that same character into smash as an echo fighter/ semi clone to Captain Falcon That way, Ganendorf can be remade, and what people liked about old Ganendorf will still be available

[@Pigmcginnyrig]

kirrikandsomtextra Maybe

[@toddscanlan2574]

Black shadow already exists, look him up. Otherwise great idea dude.

[@Gonnluv]

Black Shadown already exists. But I'm all for that idea, they just need to make a new game to make it feel like F-Zero is worth a second character in Smash. If we could get Jody Summer as a lightweight CF clone, that would also be pretty sick.

[@HomelessBubblegumMan]

Or: Add ganon into f zero

[@nickh.4940]

I had a similar idea a while back. If they were to ever make a new Smash game after Ultimate, they could add Black Shadow from F-Zero so they have the old Ganondorf movset for those who like it. That way, they can rework Ganondorf and give him the moveset they deserve.

[@charlesponyicsanyi770]

“Putting that on a fast character would be unfairly broken.” Sakurai when making joker: I’m gonna pretend I didn’t see that.

[@bbbbbbbbbb5687]

"Samurai" ·-·

[@wowftw120]

Mashahiro Samurai

[@radboyrandom1976]

Damn autocorrect

[@fiercedeity1290]

Plus joker can combo literally every move he has even at kill percents and ganon has like one or two at low percents and that's it. I'm just praying they give him some love.

[@williamwest9204]

UnFair? Lol no even remotely would that be unfair. EVERY high tier and top tier to date has had speed and kill power combined a and nobody bated an eye. But talk about giving it to ganon and ppl act like I'd be busted

[@Capris9x]

I really like the idea of making his aerial side B not putting him in freefall. Also make Warlock Kick return his double jump!!

[@emmamora7]

Warlock kick? Are you sure you aren’t talking about Wizards Foot?

[@ozziewhite6428]

FUCKING THANK YOU. the wizard kick double jump should've stayed on him if they were gonna make him this slow. It's so hard to only rely on up b to recover AND make it ambiguous AND not get gimped.

[@ahmadkazan7994]

He should use less captin falcon more magic.

[@isaacbacon6056]

YES and for those people who 'miss the old ganon' I think bringing in that 'Dark Shadow' character from F-Zero would be a perfect replacement- he is LITERALLY just a bigger, slower, stronger captain falcon.

[@fallenangeldraco3778]

ganondorf isn't just a captain falcon clone anymore

[@shoyohinata808]

Fallenangel draco He’s definitely separated himself more with his new smash attacks, but with almost all of his other moves are pretty much just complete clones of his

[@fallenangeldraco3778]

@@shoyohinata808 ok, one second

[@fallenangeldraco3778]

@@shoyohinata808 kzbin.info/www/bejne/raWkfIZsn9t1js0 here

[@monmagog]

Few changes: -improve mobility options a bit -Up tilt super armor -down b giving him back double jump -side b no free fall -neutral b replaced with a slow moving projectile like the one in OoT. Would give him better neutral while being faithful to source material

[@Athorment]

having fixes to his recovery is essential as characters like Incineroar and King K rool can use their weight to survive and avoid gimps at low percents. Ganondorf is the only heavy who can't use this "advantage" of his simply because he runs out of options too quickly to make it back on stage like other heavies or the rest of the cast even. Side B not putting him on free fall, more horizontal drift or vertical height on Up B, as well as possibly angles on aerial Down B will still make him easy to edgeguard, but at least he is ensured to make it back on stage "if the opponent doesnt do anything". This is the bare minimum in terms of recovery. Giving him a float to mixup his landing and disadvantage would also make wonders for his pressure on platforms, as he can delay his aerial against a shielding opponent. Dont think it would be broken as his aerials are laggier than Peach's and dont lend themselves to float cancelling, just dont make the float have as fast of a drift as peach and it will be fine. This should at least make ganondorf feel more like a character in smash, rather than a meme casual pick like little mac.

[@DJinThaMatrix]

Float would honestly be more powerful on ganon than on peach. Not a lot of people realize this but ganon’s aerials are all ridiculously safe on shield for their power and lag, simply cause you’re stuck in shieldstun for 8 years. Ganon’s aerial startup is worse than hers which makes him worse out of shield, but that’s kinda it lol. Also ganon just generally has more range on them than peach. All those attributes combined with ganon’s power would make shield pressure an extreme forte of ganon, regularly ensuring shield breaks Ganon is the last character you want to be shield broken by ;). if you’re above 5% you’re dead. Plus his recovery, neutral and disadvantage would no longer be ass, and his edgeguarding would be phenomenal. You should be scared

[@Athorment]

@@DJinThaMatrix So basically you are saying that he would go from Bottom tier to at least Mid to High tier. Everyone can live with that, specially because whiff punish is still a problem for him if you decide that sitting on shield isn't free anymore.

[@Mepphy99]

Or i mean give him his Jump back After a aerial wizkick ... That was usefull in some situations

[@williamwest9204]

@@DJinThaMatrix ganon actually has reaaaally small hitboxes by comparison to peach. It was something that happened coming into this gamr

[@williamwest9204]

Idk why ppl still think ganon has to be slow on the ground and air still. Bowser waved bye to that tired design long ago. Average air speed, average run speed, 4s hitbox sizes, 4s upsmash frame data and u get a lower mid tier ganon instantly.

[@Mini_Pixels]

9.0.0 Patch Notes: no ganon changes lol

[@nesswednesday2976]

Mac and Lucario mains: We're not getting buffed. Ganondorf: We know.

[@neptune7160]

Like Mac, he's a beast in casual play, you gotta make sure both sides are balanced. Honestly Ganon's current design doesn't work, he just needs a new moveset tbh

[@Mepphy99]

Yeah that's probably what he Is going to happen Bandai doesn't love Ganondorf as a character

[@misterfister7683]

@@Mepphy99 I'll pretend that last part was a joke

[@Mepphy99]

@@misterfister7683 but that's true Bandai does the balancement and they damn can't see the big character flaws

[@lucinamain6861]

players in ultimate week 1: is ganondorf top tier or high tier?

[@jackhills8823]

Ironic considering your name and profile pic

[@williamwest9204]

I knew he was bottom tier day one.

[@Rexis102]

@@williamwest9204 same here. The Ganon mains noticed the nerfs that everyone else didn’t. Up Air and Fair came out later and were weaker with reduced hitboxes. Ganoncide was a big one. Sure an Up Tilt buff is nice but it’s too little too late. Make it frame 45 rather than frame 60. Hitboxes don’t quite work the way they’re supposed to do you’re left with a decent NAir that you have to spam to get any use out of it. It’s tragic how terrible the character is but Sakurai seems to think he’s perfect

[@williamwest9204]

@@Rexis102 yeah i just got done arguing with some kid about the nerfs despite me pointing out the obvious and sending him links of my proof BUT hes a project P+ player so hes smoking hopeium. On ganon he also has his worst recovery to date which is saying ALOT cause of brawls, ppl fanboyed over the new smashes despite the only true better one being downsmash. I honestly think sakurai despite maining him wants him to suck, id go with him thinking hes great cause of being a noob stomper but the patch notes weve been given shows he watches the online and offline results and ganon is STILL among the worse in the game. In short i believe he doesnt want him to be good

[@jank9502]

Not showing his old upsmash is pretty criminal and a huge flaw in this video

[@Capris9x]

Does it really matter if the video doesn't match exactly what's being said...? He talks about it and that's what counts.

[@faydo2787]

@@Capris9x I mostly agree but for the old up smash specifically it would be better to show people who've never seen it

[@Capris9x]

@@faydo2787 I guess so but I'm pretty sure everyone knows what it is lol. Smash 4 ain't that old...

[@squared231]

Just make his warlock punch frame one and make him as fast as Sonic and give him Rob's recovery because he can fly in the games

[@MaverickHunterVile]

Alongside everything mentioned in the video, here are my suggestions: 1- Expand back air, neutral air, forward tilt and jab hitboxes downwards considerably to prevent them from whiffing against small characters; 2- Decrease neutral air start up by 1 frame (frame 6); 3- Decrease jab start up and total duration by 2 frames and 4 frames, respectively; 4- Restore Wizard Foot's ability to recover his second jump; 5- Increase his falling speed and gravity alongside the speed buffs mentioned in the video for better air play (he's already the ultimate sandbag as he is); 6- Add IASA frames to both up and down smash; 7- Increase the hitbox duration of back air and down air by 2 frames; 8- Restore Ganoncide's ability to kill the opponent first; 9- Decrease forward tilt and down tilt total duration by 5 frames; 10- Decrease forward air total duration by 6 frames.

[@TwilightWonderer]

How to buff some characters. Pit: Fix multi-hits and give him better hitboxes. Fox: Back air needs more knockback. Doesn’t even kill at 120% sometimes Lucario: Make him a normal character instead of a cheese character. Make Aura sphere more durable. Have force palm come out faster. Lower the knock back on up-throw so he can combo. Mewtwo: Tail Sheik: Last hit of Up-air needs more knockback growth. Zelda: Fix her normals and give Nair the autolink angel back. Pichu: Reduce the amount of recoil damage he takes from attacking. It’s already easy enough to kill him. Moves like Agility and Skull Bash should not deal recoil damage since they are NOT electric type moves.

[@domothebro2435]

When a character is debatably the worst character in the game but gets no changes whatsoever... feels bad man

[@michaelmccarty1327]

When a rushed character who borrowed a hand-me-down moveset received only 2 significant changes over the course of 4 games... feels disrespectful man

[@Rexis102]

@@michaelmccarty1327 Nintendo, Sakurai specifically, has demonstrated he doesn’t really care about Ganondorf.

[@guidomista3570]

Remember kids, 4 bad and saying "first" is really annoying. But how about a "Mid or High tier?" series?

[@luackx]

*Sex Pistols*

[@luackx]

Kore ga rekiemu da

[@thomasmulugeta3543]

Luca Chaparro only Luigi can have sex pistols

[@Blu_Moon_VA]

You should leave, Ganondorf is from OoT, the FOURTH main Zelda game.

[@cat-ux4oh]

First

[@cadenlikespigs]

Remove all the other characters. Instant Best Character.

[@idk35740]

I mean yeah, but that would also make him the worst character.

[@fursuitjumpscare]

It's hard to argue with your assessment.

[@Diispaceyone]

To fix ganon make him his own character. Less captain falcon more ganon

[@PrettyKoolCrocodile]

This

[@franciscozeledon9858]

I think his run animation should be somewhat like cloud/mewtow, given his magic habilities. Not necesarily fast, but he certainly shouldn be in Incineroar tier.

[@toyley3460]

Everybody loves warlock punch but it should be removed for a projectile

[@wowftw120]

HEEEURRRGGHHHH *ARRGGGHHHH*

[@Shireke01]

Even one just as slow as Warlock Punch would work Also make his jab a cape so he can reflect lmao

[@karpolla]

@@Shireke01 How about both? Keep warlock punch as it is except add an about half as strong Samus-style full-charge shot to it. Or maybe more like Heros full neutral B.

[@Shireke01]

@@karpolla that sounds p good

[@youtubealt243]

Good idea, people may think that a projectile doesn’t fit ganon but imagine a super slow projectile with lots of start up but insane damage. It’d give ganon a stylish edge without making him campy

[@neverseemstoAsh]

it's a shame to me that his moveset is so uninspired. imo, instead of the sword, he should have gotten his iconic trident, which is the weapon he almost always uses when he does use one (I.e. A Link to the Past and other older games, before his humanoid form became commonplace. he's even depicted with it in Hyrule Warriors). his moveset needs a complete overhaul, regardless of viability. here are a few ideas I have: Up B: Trident Toss Ganondorf spins and throws his trident upwards, then warps to it (as he's done in previous games). the spinning trident has a hitbox similar to ike's aether, but it can drift a bit more horizontally. When ganon warps and catches the trident, a launcher hitbox (like Zelda up-b) appears for a frame or two, then he goes into free fall. Neutral B: Dead Man's Volley Seriously, how is this not in the game yet? it's hands down one of the most iconic parts of any boss fight in Zelda, or maybe gaming in general. Ganon charges for a moment before throwing out a yellow ball of energy. The ball travels in a straight horizontal line, unless an enemy is close (think like Palu's auto-reticle), in which case it travels towards them. Enemies can attack the ball like a gordo and send it back to ganon, who must then dodge or attack it. if ganon attacks the ball, it flies back faster, homing in on the opponent, unable to be attacked again, and doing extra damage + stunning if it lands. this creates a choice for the opponent, do you risk sending it back, which could get you some extra damage on ganon but could also cause the projectile to become much more lethal, or do you simply dodge it the first time and avoid the whole ordeal? Side B: Dark Thrust Basically ganon's current side b, but instead of grabbing them, the move is disjointed and he skewers the opponent on his trident before slamming them to the ground. Down B: Blazing Bats This move is charged similarly to Link's arrows or Byleth's neutral-B, in that the charge cannot be stored. Ganondorf spins his trident above his head. As it charges, one bat appears circling around him at a time until there are six, at which point the move automatically releases. the circling bats each have a weak hitbox and upon release continue to spiral outward from Ganondorf. also, this would make our first fully dedicated spear/polearm user in smash, which would be cool. byleth is the closest we get right now (and I guess kinda the Belmonts). the idea of far reaching, thin, precise and powerful hitboxes seems very fun and interesting, and is something we don't really have a whole lot of right now. they could even keep some aspects of his moveset- fsmash could still be doriyah, and just be a big overhead whack with the trident. Upsmash could be somewhere in between Marth and Belmont's, etc. I might design a full moveset eventually, but as a concept I think you get the idea. basically, I think ganon should be a more defensive character based on his speed and weight, but can't fulfill that rule since his hitboxes are short and he has no projectiles, so he needs to play offense (and he can't do that well since he's slow.) if you give him far reaching hitboxes he can wall out opponents and still keep his powerful hitboxes and slower frame data, and the new neutral and down b's could help him control space more effectively. his new recovery would have far more mix-ups and be much harder to guard effectively as well, making him a similar archetype to byleth: a character who relies on keeping his opponents at bay with long hitboxes and projectiles, but that ultimately falls apart if someone manages to rush him. this wouldn't make him top tier per se, as the current engine benefits faster characters more than powerful ones, but it would still make him better, and he'd be more fun and interesting than just "falcon but bigger"

[@idk35740]

Did you get this idea from brawlfan1?

[@neverseemstoAsh]

@@idk35740 who?

[@idk35740]

@@neverseemstoAsh sorry, I meant duke of dorks.

[@neverseemstoAsh]

@@idk35740 idk who that is either

[@idk35740]

@@neverseemstoAsh well, I guess you didn't (unless you're lying). He is a smash KZbin that makes move set improvements on certain characters. He made one on Gannondorf and he had almost the exact same ideas, except he made it a while back.

[@aqualacerta3961]

what i would do: -replace his up-special with palutena's "jump glide" from smash 4 : the start of the move will stay the same: if you catch someone you hit them and you can do another up-special after, if you don't ganondorf start to glide, you can attack out of the glide. this makes ganondorf fly like he does in zelda but whitout taking away peach's unique float. -replace his down-special with palutena's "lightweight" from smash 4: (of course a little bit nerfed)ganondorf use dark magic to make himself faster on the ground and in the air for 12 seconds at the cost of having the knockback and damage of his move reduced and taking 1.1x more knockback himself (basically becoming a totally different archetype) at the end of the 12seconds ganondorf will suffer of the bad parts from both archetype for 5 seconds whitout the advantages (meaning: slow, light, not dealing a lot of damage) after the 5seconds debuff he must wait another 10seconds before being able to use the move again. This represent his dark-magic abilities like dark magic makes you more powerfull but it's a risky thing to do, and it's way better and iconic than "captain falcon's down-b but edgy" -his side-b is unique and iconic enough to stay, the only change i'll make would be that ganondorf isn't put into free fall after missing the attack in the air, of course he'll only be able to use it once (like little mac's side b in sm4sh) -replace his neutral-b with a totally new move this time: when pressing the B button ganondorf will start to charge a projectile by twirling his trident around him (like a cheerleader but more cool and edgy) the trident inflict damage to oponent that get close giving him a little prtection while charging. While charging 5 bats will apear around ganondorf if he release the move before max charge (by dodging, jumping, shielding, etc..) the number of bats that apeared will circle around ganondorf (like megaman's down-b except that you can't throw them) the bats will disapear after getting hit by a projectile (protecting ganondorf) touching the adverse player (dealing damage to them) or after 10 seconds, when the projectile is fully charged ganondorf will throw a slow and big white ball (like in ocarina of time) that will follow the oponent untill it touch, the ball can be reflected back to ganondorf with any attack, and so the 2 players can start a tennis game like in ocarina of time, the ball can be reflected 6 times maximum (meaning ganondorf will always win at the end) and the power of the ball increase each time it's reflected (the level 1 version is weaker than wii fit trainer's neutral B and inflict almost no shield damage while the level 6 version is as strong as warlock punch and will break shield, so warlock punch is still present in a way). Some would say "warlock punch is iconic we can't remove it!" and i'll respond "it's just falcon punch but more lame, we can replace it". Ganondorf can't use his neutral B if there are bats suronding him. -since ganondorf lose one of his many "big slow move that is scary and kill" the super armor from his neutral-b will be given to his up-tilt instead and i think that's enough to not only fix him but make him good, all of those ideas give him a better recovery, a projectile, a way to deal with zoners, more true to his games and more unique. for those who read all of this: you'all are kings and queens. sorry for bad english, bye

[@felldoh9271]

Your contribution is heavily appreciated. It’s criminal that he’s a clone.

[@aqualacerta3961]

@@felldoh9271 thanks, yeah ganondorf deserve better than being a clone

[@weebs1051]

I appreciate the enthuthiasm but no buddy-the moves arent the problem, its the character itself. He really just needs some patchwork with his blindspots, a better shieldgrab/grab game, and a bit more speed

[@aqualacerta3961]

@@weebs1051 the moves are a problem, not only do they range between "meh predictable" to "complete garbage" they're also only copies of captain falcon of all people, the main villain of the zelda series deserve a unique moveset showing his magic abilities and referencing the game not a copy of a character from a dead franchise

[@catisreckless4647]

Up tilt can be canceled after a set amount of frames. Side B no longer causes freefall, and can be used repeatedly. Side B also as an imput for an upward or side throw, in case you don't want the dive attack. Up B has bigger horizontal range, slightly higher vertical. Lower start up on grounded attacks. Warlock punch can be cancelled after a set amount of frames.

[@Sir_Khris]

I'll input something, doubt its gonna be read but its worth giving it a shot. most of it is already suggested in comments and mentioned in video. 1. Have side-b NOT put him into free-fall. 2. better air drift. not only for better recovery but the sheer fact that when you fought him in Ocarina, he was hovering around. Granted having him float might be too much but having better aerial drift is close enough to simulate that. 3. Have Neutral B be a combination of a projectile and his Warlock Punch. when you tap B it shoots out a shadowy projectile, probably not a fast, strong, or big projectile but one that has a bit of range. The longer you hold B the stronger, bigger and shorter range the projectile becomes until you hold B to its full duration to do the Warlock Punch. this is also a throw back to Ocarina. 4. I agree with the video about changing his u-tilt to be like his older version of u-smash. His current u-tilt, while a lot of hype could be made out of it, is practically useless. 5. Finally give him some armor mechanics on some of his attacks like dash attack and/or all/some of his special attacks (hell super armor with up-B and side-B would deffo fix his recoveries getting gimped). The guy is in armor, I think some of his moves should reflect that. That is all I can think of at the moment.

[@JFXRD]

I feel like if Ganon were to be able to cancel out of his down B with jump would make it A: A better, and safer tool in neutral, and B: early percent combo tool. Though I have a lot of other ideas, but this one seems the most substantial.

[@Xxbtztrl]

His uptilt can be practical, it has a gravitational pull which can pull people that tries to recover low from under the stage. Also if you position right when someone is recovering by landing on the stage, you either land the uptilt or force them to try to parry which usually results in a guaranteed shield break

[@MrGameguyC]

*Fixing/Buffing Inicineroar. This Fire/Dark Type Pokémon carries a respectable, bruiser energy among the roster, but he's too focused on grabs and Revenge (Down-B) to pick up the pace and catch up with the rest of the roster. Here are my suggestions: -Obligatory mobility buffs, he's literally the slowest mover in the game. Even if he moved at the pace as another slow character like the Belmonts, he'd get much more work done and would challenge camping strategies, one of his biggest weaknesses. -Improving his auto cancel window and/or lowering the landing lag on his Nair, Fair, and Bair so he'd have better poke options as he mostly relies on Alolan Whip (Side-B) punishes in the neutral, the latter of which while good become predictable. -Strengthing the knockback on his quicker attacks: Jab, Dash Attack, Nair, Fair, Bair, Up-Air, Darkest Lariat (Neutral-B), and Cross Chop (Up-B). While he has very powerful throws and Revenge (Down-B) to take early stocks, most opponents play evasive towards the Cat and are very difficult to land on them. So better KO options on faster moves would put him in line with other heavy sluggers like Bowser, Ganon, Ike, and Charizard. -Rework Revenge so he doesn't lose it from being thrown, in exchange for the buff to only improve his damage output, not KO power. -For the out-there buffs, give Darkest Lariat (Neutral-B) the ability to rise via mashing like Doc's Tornado so it can improve the moves recovery and punish game. Also when he gets Revenge (Down-B), Alolan Whip (Side-B) and Cross Chop (Up-B) go further as a perk to his recovery.

[@alongwistfulsquiggle8440]

I'd argue he's meant to be more of a grappler than a bruiser (think Zangief). Being focused on grabs is the entire point. With that in mind I think he mostly needs a way to approach and to make people scared so they'll block and actually get grabbed. Revenge more or less fills that role, though maybe it is overcentralized a bit. I think the idea is that the more he gets camped out, the stronger he becomes, and thus becomes more of a threat the more you don't engage with him (as long as the player is good). I do agree he needs more speed to actually take advantage of his gameplan, even if I don't think we'll actually get that (movement speed iirc has never been patched in Ultimate for any character). With average (or slightly below) movement speed to keep people from running away so easily, I think he'd be mostly fine being the same in every other way. His attacks are good, he just doesn't get to take advantage of them. Another issue once he's able to get in is making people scared to jump, and in a platform fighter that's just tough. I don't know what the solution to that would be other than making a version of the command grab that angles up to catch people in the air.

[@PrettyKoolCrocodile]

Oh yeah the Doc one already came out also hello GameGuy, I agreed with all of these.

[@thebananamelon5065]

How’s about: introduce Black Shadow as a new character, and make him a faster, more viable version of smash 4 Ganon. And give Ganon a float and less vulnerable frame data

[@michaelmccarty1327]

I hate how people pretend this is a bad idea. It literally makes everyone happy except contrarian dicks.

[@firenze6478]

@@michaelmccarty1327 yeah people who want uncanon rushed dorf perplex me, Ganondorf should be fast floaty and at home in the air

[@ayar2]

smaller changes I dont mind, but making him faster would make him broken, especially in casual play. same as little mac, he`s mainly designed, and better suited for non serious play.

[@jackkelz2000]

So are we just ignoring joker with arsene that last for 30ish seconds and can combo all of his moves together and has the kill power of ganon, and is like 2-3x the speed of ganon. Ganon is not broken on any account if he is faster. He still can’t recover, he does not have a good out of shield option, and he gets punished for trying to come back to ledge. If he is faster he would not have to rely on side b and down b to get across the stage and he could actually mix up his options. He doesn’t need to be super fast, but even 10% faster would immediately make him a little better, because it would make it so you could run to get where you need to be rather than down b and then get punished for trying to get where they are. Sure he would be harder to deal with, and online he might become more annoying, but right now he is low tier because he has nothing going for him. Don’t ever say ganondorf would be broken if he was a little faster, because joker does the same thing as ganon but he can edge guard, do drag down into true kill confirms, go all the way off stage to spike and or back air you, and the more you hit him the more he will get arsene so you get punished for winning. Ganon doesn’t have a comeback mechanic, he has not recovery options, and does not have a good out of shield option. At least if he was faster he could actually do something and get out of disadvantage easier since he is a big body. I think he should be buffed. The side b not giving you special fall would also be nice because you could recover like incineroar, and it is still punishable from the top as long as you do not get grabbed. Overall ganon needs to be buffed in some way, he is fun, but against any character with some semblance of combos he cannot do anything, and he can be cheesed offstage by either rock crocking or by some chrom up b cheese or by dk cargo throw. If he is buffed by giving him some more movement speed on the ground and in the air he would not be broken. If you give him twice his speed maybe, but if it’s like 10-20% faster he would be better and still be balanced.

[@ayar2]

@@jackkelz2000 too much text, but my response from what i gathered, Ganondorf was made mainly for casual play (his archetype at least), and Joker might be fast and powerful, but he's also a lightweight, and his Arsene Power Boost is temporal, plus, if youre playing competitive, you might want to face him with a better option, like fox, palutena or pikachu.

[@masterpianist]

Questions is, does Mr. Sakurai even care about helping Ganon out? I fear, sadly, that he does not. Love Ganon and just some small movement speed and attack speed buffs, etc would breathe soooo much life into him. But I suppose we can only hope :)

[@Sun_Downer]

Id keep that up tilt the same but make the wind boxes larger and their suction much stronger to negate people just rolling through it, maybe put damaged based heavy armor on it. Also put super armor on his air down b

[@siegiusempire1471]

I doubt this would happen, but have his down throw a set fixed knock back so the opponent won’t go far at high percentages, that way Ganon has a reliable true kill confirm of Down Throw to NAir.

[@cmcwar]

I actually made a spirit set for mobility and power for slow bottom tiers like Ganondorf, but it was also good with top tiers like Inkling. Spirit set: Primary: Jump increase 3 star Support: Landing lag decrease, lightweight, & speed

[@muzzledoof6353]

If you made his down b bounce off shields like Peach's side b that would help alot. It would help him tech chase more safely.

[@aidenmccube5817]

All my changes and ideas (will constantly edit): N•B Change his nuetral B from Warlock Punch, to his energy ball attack from Ocarina of Time. It would be a relatively quick projectile with a decent start up and a very quick cool time to quickly act out of it. The energy ball can be charged for longer (One second sends 3 balls, Two seconds sends 5 balls) to send up to 5 energy balls and act similar to Wii Fit's Soccer Ball in the fact that it can be hit back, but differentiates in the fact that it can only be sent back by a disjointed hitbox like a sword or a reflector like Mario's cape. Speaking of capes, when Ganondorf uses this move and it's active, his Neutral B let's him use his cape to reflect the energy ball back and additionally can be used to reflect other projectiles. One last property of the move is that while in the air (this effect only works once in the air and resets once Ganondorf touches the stage or platform) you can float temporarily while charging the energy orbs which can be used to stall your fall. To make the float technique fair, you can only charge it up for up to 1 second and only send 3 energy balls. S•B Change the freefall aspect of the move to where if you successfully land the move, you don't end up in free fall like Captain Falcon's Raptor Boost. You can angle it forwards, backwards or diagonally upwards and while it's activated in the air, instead of being a kamikaze move, you gran your opponent and you footstool them, making the move become a pseudo-recovery option. While in the jump animation, you're unable to use any moves and unlike a normal footstool, they can act a bit quicker afterwards making it a somewhat risky option if you don't grab the ledge after footstooling them. Like Little Mac's Haymaker, once you use this move in the air, you can't use it again even after being hit until you land on the stage or a platform.

[@emmamora7]

This is really good actually, I was thinking about that tennis ball move from OOT as well. Oh yeah, quick question: Will Ganon be able to move around while floating with Neutral-‏‏‎‏‏‎B? It could be really good if that’s the case. Another question about Side-B: Will Ganon be able to use an airdodge & Up-B after he uses Side-‏‏‎‏‏‎‏‏‎‏‏‎B in the air? It could be really detrimental to his recovery if he can’t or does it work like Sonic’s Up-‏‏‎‏‏B where you jump super high after Side-B but can’t double jump, only dodge? Final question: After the unfortunate opponent gets caught by Ganon, does the opponent get launched downwards like a meteor or does it work like a normal footstool?

[@Spubbily01]

I think that if you give him a new up tilt, you should replace his neutral special with a volcano kick that functions like warlock punch.

[@bjschmid1]

Like the up-tilt change the most, great idea! Fix Yoshi's Side-B: getting hit during eggroll breaks the shell, cancelling the move but absorbing the hit. It'd make it a viable engaging tool!

[@THE_REEEE_KING]

Buffs i would consider nintendo may do in the possible future: - Bring back tipman (late u air semi spikes) - grounded up b can catch all crouching opponents (snake, pikachu, etc) - side tilt can hit all crouching opponents - on ganondorfs up tilt his foot is on fire before it smashes down, have this do fire damage, would help to hurt those above him. I wouldnt suggest having this combo into the remaining move though because it would be broken as fuck and an exceptional anti-air - increase horizontal movement on up b - back throw kills at 120% at edge, forward throw at 130% at edge, up throw at 140% - grounded wizards foot hitbox increased, now destroys any projectiles and continues, but on shield more recovery frames so that its more punishable - down tilt and jab less recovery, thus being better poke options on shield - aeriel flame doesnt freefall, can only be done once in air till landing on stage, and a few more frames on whiffing once landing. - ground flame choke cannot be teched at 120% and above, same as currently rock crocking cant be done at a certain percentage. Also increase grab box (?) on the grounded flame choke for grabbing aerial opponents. Right now its microscopic. - fix blindspots on forward and up smash I do not recommend upping his speed because that would make him less "ganondorfy". Hes meant to hit hard and hes meant to be slower. Just give him fixes and slight buffs so that he has some kill confirms. Right now ganondorf is practically a guessing game for the majority of the match with few combos. If reducing his damage on each attack by 1-2% is whats needed for these buffs thats fine.

[@saigesmart4167]

Bruh if ganon side b didn't put him into free fall everyone would just spam it off stage constantly when they have a lead. His ledge hang animation is top tier, its near impossible to hit him when on ledge. Imagine being beaten by a planking ganon because that's what would happen lol

[@PrettyKoolCrocodile]

Yeah but Side B use probably once until getting hit again is probably what they meant

[@saigesmart4167]

@@PrettyKoolCrocodile Well yeah or if you regrab the ledge over and over again, that's how you plank

[@PrettyKoolCrocodile]

@@saigesmart4167 true true

[@StarDragonJP]

I just wish they would have given him an original moveset. It's not like they haven't altered characters moves between games, & even if they had just based it on Ocarina Ganon there was enough there for him to have a complete moveset.

[@cptcolgenltmajor9246]

They could do a couple things that have cannon backing. He could get a projectile probably one that can be knocked back making it akin to his tennis matches with link in their game. They could give him his float from Oot giving him recovery mix ups, Which I’d personally take as an airborne side b over the choke

[@Zvoosh25]

Any projectile, preferably his OoT tennis ball, instead of warlock punch, replace his up b with a teleport with a hit box, replace up tilt with old up smash, and buff all his movement options slightly And for purely cosmetic reasons, replace his never used in universe sword with his much more iconic trident or twin swords

[@Jotari]

*Give him massive shield damage on his tilts and aerials. Make it so shielding against Ganondorf simply isn't an option, as it will lead to you being put in a dizzy state (which will make Warlock Punch, while not any more useful, far more satisfying). Ganondorf is already weak enough against dodging, might as well take away the entire other defensive option people having going for them. *Give his up tilt more range. It's actually not as useless an attack as it appears to be as it has some good edge guarding capabilities. Though it's range is smaller than the explosion it generates suggests. More lateral range and the ability to cancel would make this a very good, if still niche, attack. *Give his jab projectile reflecting properties. Projectile reflecting on a jab would not be the most useful thing in the world, as it wouldn't be possible to do while running or jumping, but it would allow Ganondorf to stand there and force projectile spammers to come to him. It would be situational, but it's greatest strength would be that other players would know he can do it, making them more wary about throwing out projectiles. *Give him Bowser and Kazuya's Tough Guy effect so light attacks can't interrupt his momentum.

[@ryansanner1934]

Give him a teleport if you up b and press the b button twice. It would give ganon a huge mixup when recovering and it just fits his character in the legend of Zelda games.

[@StarmisYTP]

Here are a couple of ideas on 2 characters I want to see 9.0.0. Bowser Jr -Make Down Smash a lot less laggy and kill better. Make it have a shock wave hit box like K. Rool's down smash and have it active longer. -Make N-air have more reliable combos and kill potential. -Make F-air and B-air last longer and have a better hit box. -Make his air speed better. -Make his U-air have a better hitbox and a bit more kill potential. Jigglypuff -Make her run speed faster. -Make B-air a combo tool and have usable even if you use it on one side. -Make U-air combo more and kill more. -Make Rollout have a bigger hit box, sets up faster, can grab the ledge better and have upwards knock back so it can kill more like it was in Smash 4.

[@nesswednesday2976]

I miss some of Ganondorf's Smash 4 moves, especially up air. Frankly, I would: Adjust Dtilt's angle to combo at low percents, but kill at higher percents. Reduce the startup of Ganon's dash attack to 7 frames, reduce the FAF total to 30 frames, and adjust the duration of both the sweet and sour spot. _Slightly_ increase Nair's autocancel window, while also increasing the hitboxes to consistently hit opponents. Reduce Fair's startup. Revert up air and back air to SSB4. Adjust Forward and Up smashes' hitboxes to fit the entire sword. It will sometimes blindly miss or seem like the attacks can't reach. Reduce Forward smash to have 20 frames of startup. Increase the duration of forward and Up smash's hitboxes. No longer put Ganon under free fall when using a flame choke in the air. Reduce Wizard's foot's startup to 10 frames. Increase Ganon's speed to 1.5. I was originally considering giving Ganon's dash attack a knockback boost. I can understand if this is seen as too much, but I would love for him to have a better combo game and be faster.

[@darekichinose1034]

Ik i am late but i suggest 3 very slight changes without altering him to bad or pushing him over the top. Nr. 1:Give him wizards drop kick, the custom from smash 4(WAY BETTER recovery, great neutral tool to intercept approaches and avoid projectiles) Nr2:make him able to act out of a whiffed flame choke, like literally he shoukd get that so its not as punishable if whiffed in the air Nr3 and this is the most reasonable and second most needed:restore up airs frame data from smash 4, that way he has a reliable anti air gimping tool, kinda juggle tool and combo move.

[@tibisan3503]

Oh lord, out of all those laggy aspects of ganon, u really don’t wanna say his aerials are laggy, that are damn fast for their power and range

[@MOONSTAR-dy2nv]

Here's a suggestion: Increase the size of dash attack's sour spot. The sour spot hitbox is actually within his hurtbox, so making the sour spot bigger would help more with his amazing weak dash attack ---> up air kill confirm

[@haunter93til]

Give him float like PM, make warlock a charge punch like DK, make up tilt be able to cancel with side step or can cancel attack early and it does less damage, slightly increase his abysmal run speed, increase grab range and give Mewtwo status up throw and back throw kill power. This would make him much more viable while keeping his archetype of over the top powerhouse but not broken.

[@bruno213]

Give Wizard Kick a jump or cancel option. Give his actual armor some use. Give him the tough guy super armor. When walking or standing still, light attacks dont cause any flinch at all. Along with SOME projectiles. Give Ganondorf his levitate ability like Peach or give him a high jump overall. Have his jab's electric actually have a slight paralysis effect where potentially the movement speed of the opponent is slowed for a short moment, giving Ganondorf the ability to connect things without getting framed 1 jabbed. Have super armor from start to finish on Warlock Punch in all manners of using them. Put his dark aura to use and have it do lingering damage effect. In the same vein a poison attack does. Give up-tilt a rollout or cancel option, baiting the opponent.

[@konajohnson6182]

The thing he really needs is an extra jump, higher air speed, and a better up b. This could help him mixup his recovery options. When I say an extra jump, I mean a measly small hop, we can’t have him getting to stage easy. It would also be nice to have his ground speed sped up greatly and maybe even have him float like in his original game.

[@donaldhoward9819]

I miss his dair auto canceling from Brawl. Double thunder stomp to up smash was so satisfying and devastating. That was a +60% combo.

[@firenze6478]

Ganondorf needs to be fast, floaty, and have peaches float, shoot lighting, use dual swords or trident, summon fire bats, Ike’s side b You know actually be ganondorf, not slow captain falcon.

[@Ven-zg3fj]

Damn it! If I had known you guys were making this one, I would have liked to give my take. Here's my take after watching this video (for what it's worth aka not much lol) 1. Dark Dive. Oh God, this move needs work. A) Increase the hitbox directly downward. B) Decrease startup from frame 14 to frame 9 or 10. frame 9 puts it on par with Roy's Blazer, another powerful, one-sided up b oos. This gives Ganon a better defensive option to relieve pressure and punish unsafe approaches a la Bowser's whirling fortress. C) It should also boost him a bit higher and a bit more in the direction he's facing when he connects with an opponent, making tech check only available to characters with better jump height and/or range and removing the ability to gimp Ganon by purposely getting hit by Dark Dive. 2. give him old ganoncide back. This puts much more fear factor into edgeguarding him, marginally improving his recovery, and gives him back an infamous tool for comebacks that increases his fear factor overall. Now that we've fixed that god-awful recovery... 3. I think the idea of replacing utilt with old usmash is a fantastic idea! It would definitely have to be a bit faster on startup and a bit weaker, considering it came out on frame 21 and killed lighter characters at 40% on the sweetspot. I think the new utilt could be like Snake utilt with slower startup and faster cooldown 4. Uair should be frame 6. This will help in disadvantage and help it start a bit lower, helping it function as a solid option against standing opponents. 5. Give Down B its smash 4 hitboxes and shieldbreaking potential. 6. increase the angle of dtilt to make it a more reliable kill option 7. Obviously yes, fix the fsmash and usmash blindspots. 8. Make weak Dash attack have the same hitbox as strong dash attack, to help fix the weakness that move has with short characters and pushback interactions. (This is a fix, albeit a minor one) 9. Make literally any of his throws kill at a reasonable percent. 10. Fix Nair 11. Bonus: Give Bair its smash 4 hitbox.

[@michaelmccarty1327]

Scrap him and start over. There is no excuse for this lazy, mutated clone anymore. Give us the King of Evil we all want

[@williamwest9204]

So bottom tier mage instead

[@michaelmccarty1327]

@@williamwest9204 I'd take it over what we have now.

[@williamwest9204]

@@michaelmccarty1327 he'd still be bottom tier and lose to stupid shit.

[@michaelmccarty1327]

@@williamwest9204 Unlike now.

[@williamwest9204]

@@michaelmccarty1327 that's not a fix then lol

[@ruta_VA]

yall gotta start saying tech check now that rockcrock was outed as a predator

[@RamikinHorde]

Yo, stop parroting this garbage. There is no evidence at all that Rock Crock actually did anything, the minor his accuser (bitter ex) says he preyed on DENIES IT. Oh an in response to the denial the accuser blocked the victim on all social media lmao. Moral crusaders who don't even look into the lives they're ruining are disgusting. Just because fatality is dumb as rocks doesn't mean you should be too www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/hk67k2/the_fourteen_year_old_that_chemx_accused/

[@andyharris8212]

revseanchan I’m glad this was said. Rockcrock’s case was never truly resolved. There was never any definitive proof that he did anything yet people jumped on him right away because of what was happening with all the other players. Fatality normally seems like a level headed guy, but he really jumped to conclusions with this case

[@gabrielabrera9966]

Personally I think Ganon's kit needs a complete overhaul. Mainly a teleport for up-B.

[@Capris9x]

Give him the classic Ganon teleport with the noise it makes lol

[@Kurono_Alien]

Give him his PM float, make Side-B not free fall, increase his initial dash speed, slightly increase his air speed, replace his up tilt with his old up smash, replace warlock punch with some sort of projectile (doesn’t have to be too strong or maybe make it a reflector), make his jab and f-tilt 2 frames faster also making his jab hit low-profilers, and I think that would sum up the changes for him. Fits his theme and gives him more options in neutral, adv, disadv, and scrambles without being too broken I feel. Would still be low tier but would at least have options.

[@ErzbischofAmurael]

How to fix Ganondorf? Give him a moveset that‘s not copied from another character would be my step one

[@PrettyKoolCrocodile]

Genius

[@btu1734]

I’d say give him faster air and ground speed and make his recovery better. Don’t make his side b put him in free fall and I’d say make both nair and up air like maybe 2 frames faster. I think he would be significantly better without being too amazing

[@apuddleofsand]

After playing a ruleset where it’s basically just standard competitive rules but with Beastballs, I can confirm as a Ganon main that Ganon would definitely rise up a bit in character rankings if he just had access to one at all times. I think everybody is sleeping on Beastballs, getting combos with those are absolutely hype.

[@elephantmarch]

Maybe give him an attack like Din's Fire, since his wizard power is similar: maybe it much stronger then Zelda's, BUT maybe takes a few more frames to activate so it's easier to avoid.

[@javiakiragm8079]

Dead Man's Volley projectile on neutral B, to improve his neutral game and give him more personality, close to his appearances in the Zelda series

[@ashleysealy3338]

He really should have his own move set by now, why be a falcon clone? He has a staff, a sword, magic... it's just lazy on Nintendo's hands but 🤷🏾‍♂️

[@firenze6478]

Dual swords, trident, he’s fast as hell , jumps super high, you know the opposite of what we got in smash

[@akramrabaa943]

They need to just give his move set to Black Shadow from F-Zero and give him an original moveset

[@LadyKaira]

Screw fishing his current moveset, just give him a new one that is actually representative of the character.

[@firenze6478]

Seriously there’s no excuse

[@PrettyKoolCrocodile]

Please do King K. Rool next, I main him competitively (not publically) while I also watch competitive KKR plays and came up with a MASSIVE list into improving the character without making him -actually- OP and limiting chances of completely redesigning a move. Side Tilt: The clap, combined with Pivot Cancelling makes it a pretty ranged move, however it does have a minor flaw which would be the hitbox of the move, being fairly big and pretty reliable, but still can whiff against small hurtboxes (Joker), so I'd alter the offsets of the hitbox to hit more reliably up close. Up Tilt: Tied to NAir, a one-sided frame 7 decent kill move, flawed by design (Making it use both arms to hit on both sides is doubtful due to design but would be nice) but however there's a few things to make the more reliable and better. I'd alter the offsets of the hitboxes to hit low-level foes more reliably and also increase the duration of how long the sourspot lasts. Finally I'd decently increase the damage and knockback done for the sweetspot and also for the sourspot due to a one-sided move should be more rewarding to land. Back Air: The insanely strong spike, however some say it is one of his worst aerials, so I'd tweak these aspects. The startup duration needs to be lowered significantly so its easier to use. Next the endlag should be lowered a decent amount too. Finally, I'd alter the offsets of the hitbox to hit more reliably on the fist as it does have a few glaring blindspots. Down Aerial: Many refer it to a "passable" move, a decently powerful spike, I'd make it a little better by tweaking a few values. The startup time should be lowered a bit, same for the endlag. Finally, the landing lag should be lowered a bit. Neutral Special: The blunderbuss, capable of the "SUCK AND CUCK", a decent one-sided move, but very vulnerable in certain scenarios, I'd make it more reliable by tweaking these characteristics. Specifically to the crown as an item, when thrown into the vacuum of the blunderbuss, would immediately return to KKR without the pickup animation. Next I'd add infinite Super Armor to KKR when he sucks up either a Kannonball or opposing foe, it would look so funny to see a someone like a Roy attempt to punish it with Side B and then get hit by the reshot Kannonball in return. I think holding the Special button should immediately activate the vacuum instead of firing the kannonball. To be less of a risk, I'd think canceling it out of it by shielding should be an option. Next I'd make foes knocked back from both the upward and backward blunderbuss throws have significantly more knockback so he has more reliable kill throws rather than just back throw when platforms don't exist. Finally, I'd make it possible to shoot reshots straight instead of diagonal when the Stick is inputted in a straight horizontal direction. Up Special: The recovery move of the King, predictable and linear, ways I would go into tweaking the move to be less linear would go by. Making KKR should be able to cancel the move at any time with an airdodge or any aerial, this move can be less linear with a change like this due to being an option to mix up foes. Landing lag needs to be lowered, he's hella easy to punish from landing with the move. I don't think anyone I know thought of this but what if the propellers can nullify weak projectiles? This would make KKR's recovery significantly less exploitable from typically slow projectiles. Horizontal speed needs to be increased, with it increased, KKR would be a little harder to edgeguard with the new speed adjustments. Finally idk if this one would make sense but maybe the final hit should have a little more hitstun so he would be less vulnerable. Down Special: The counter of the King, the only counter in the game specific to hitting a specific area rather than the entire hurtbox, its an "eh" move, I'd make it better by tweaking these parameters. The endlag after a failure needs to be lowered a bit, same for a successful hit. Finally I'd increase the range of detecting hits (I'd really want a normal counter range but I don't think they will go that far, it's not a redesign but insanely would change the move's design) so it would detect more hits close to the top of KKR's belly more often, the same goes to the returning hit. Side Special: The King's crown, with buffed armor recently, but still a pretty linear move, I'd tweak these aspects. Startup and endlag needs to be lowered, it's so easy to punish afar at its current state, even with the recent armor buff. I think the shield damage nerf in 3.0.0, should be reverted for this pretty slow projectile, that way shield break setups can be more punishing. I think the crown pickup animation should be cancelable on any frame, sure you can avoid the pickup lag by extending your massive hurtbox or timing a jumpsquat close to the crown but this will make Crown Sliding have more mixups due to having cancelable frames, ie Crown Slide cancel to Down Smash or pivot cancelled Side Tilt. The second hit should come out faster to connect with the first hit so more setups become reliable. Finally, lowering the internal hand position can prevent his arm from being a big part of extending his hurtbox which allows him to be hit far away from his model. Side Special (Item): The crown as an item, one of the unique but lame character disadvantage states in the game, this item often steals the game from KKR or further separates the game when lost in the hands of an opponent, here's how I'll balance it (rather than removing this disadvantage state in the game which would count as a redesign), this will nerf doubles plays but most of us care more for 1-on-1 matches. I think ONE throw from an opposing foe, EITHER a HIT or MISS will IMMEDIATELY return to KKR, WITHOUT the pickup animation, that way it isn't as abusable for easy damage to eventually a stock. I also think the crown's despawn time on the stage should be significantly lowered, with a change like that, losing the crown won't be as much of a risk as opponents will have less time to react to the crown as an item. Damage in general and done to shields as well as knockback should be lowered. Finally, areas to spawn offstage should be altered to suit KKR's position more often than the opponent. Side Smash: Many refer it to the worst move in his kit, to make it not the worst move (but still pretty bad), I would tweak these characteristics. Obviously, the move needs to stay active for at least 4 frames, that way it cannot be easily spotdodged as easily and get the King punished for a miss. The range should be increased, to be more disjointed and beat out Z-Axis shenanigans to suit how pitiful the move is. The knockback should also be increased so the move would be more rewarding for KKR to hit, same for the damage. Finally, damage done to shields should be increased so shields are more penalized for shielding the move and maybe the vulnerability time should be lowered. Up Smash: The frame 6 move, the fastest move in his kit, it's still a solid move with the right setups (Crown-Up Smash/DAir - Up Smash) but I'd make it a little better by tweaking some characteristics. The quake of the move, is very lacking in damage output, so I'd significantly increase it as well as its knockback so he'd have a more reliable killing OOS option, the same goes for shield damage. Next I'd reduce the endlag a decent amount as its pretty large. Finally I'd decently increase the area for the spike hitbox and increase its power too. Down Throw: The burying throw, it was "tweaked" in 2.0.0 but has a MASSIVE problem that existed since DAY 1 and NEVER GOT PATCHED OUT (SINCE A YEAR). There's a glitch known as the "Bounce Glitch" (kzbin.info/www/bejne/gKbMiIOcmJ2Ii7c has a good idea on why it exists), affecting the majority of the cast where ANY % is escapable against either certain stage edge collision or platforms, making KKR lose one of his possible kill confirms/mixups and possibly die for trying to go for it. I'd obviously want to fix the bug so this bug won't exist past patch 9.0.0/the next patch. General: The King of the Kremlings does need some tweaks to have more possible combos and less of combo food (removing that is impossible). I'd make his hurtbox significantly smaller as he can get hit from MANY things from behind or in unsenseworthy locations. Another thing to tweak would be increasing both his ground and air speed so he wouldn't be as slow and predictable as he currently is. Finally, slightly reducing the amount of time for his airdodge could help a little with recovery and escaping combos. Finally, I'd make the 1v1 multiplier only take effect in 1v1 matches for Belly Armor. That's pretty much all the things I would tweak for King K. Rool, hit me up if you have the guts to argue on any of these or want to suggest more changes.

[@c.k.harrower8672]

9:07 "Putting that on a fast character would be unfairly broken" *Smash 4 Bayonetta has entered the server.*

[@nikc101]

Happy to hear my input in here!

[@plentyofpaper]

I'd like his Down B to regain his double jump like in Melee. Increasing his double jump height just a bit would be nice. Just enough that from the ledge, he can reliably release the ledge, jump on stage and throw out a nair or up air (up air is possible now, but touchy.) Maybe even fair. Also, let's make the prospect of shield breaks even more terrifying. Warlock punch has knockback reduced to about F-tilts, but the opponent immediatly has a stock erased on hit, making for a potential 2 stocks off 1 hit.

[@mermaidman961]

Warlock punch should be slightly slower but any attack on ganon during the animation sets off the punch instantly similar to a counter.

[@CanadianJesus150]

PLEASE GET RID OF HIS UPTILT WHY DOES HE NEED TWO SLOW MOVES LIKE THAT other than that idk maybe a tiny bit better frame data

[@hangry3102]

He needs stronger drift and slight float, and overall a better Up-B. I think this would be enough to make him more viable without making him over compensated.

[@theonetrueedgelord3596]

Give him the ability to jump cancel his down b. Give him a faster initial dash. Faster air speed. Then decrease the knock back and damage of nair and little bit more hit stun for combos

[@amon0209]

Make his warlock punch tied to a meter. You could fill up the meter with attacks and the higher the meter the faster the warlock punch would come out.

[@DuyuCoyote]

old ganon main from 2006-2008. Ganon will be fixed when he is lovingly re-created and re-imagined from the ground up like other non-clone characters. Ganondorf historicly traps his enemies and then completely overwhelms them. That sentiment should be at the heart of his redesign. It might help to look at the japanese non-fiction story the character was based off of too. I need to re-look at it, but, its where you get the 'going up and up and up' in the castle and each level is more 'demonic & ascended' than the next.

[@TheAsianGmer]

Well if we are going with the thumbnail, Ganondorf would do much better if he was able to use a bomb as projectile.

[@cool3517]

Keep his movement stats as is, since he fights with patience / no sense of urgency in LoZ. Besides speed, G's moveset is kinda lacking in RANGE for his hurtbox size. Maybe we can tweak his Falcon-based moveset into something that feels more like how he should play in Smash: B--- Warlock Punch now has "Waves of Darkness" that emanate from his fist during the wind-up. Opponents caught in the waves, have their animations slightly slowed down (think Witch Time w/o the counter trigger). References that Navi scene in OOT. Side B--- For Flame Choke, you can hold/release B to briefly strangle foes with dark energy during the grab, for extra damage. For counterplay, opponents can mash to break free. G's super armor should drop while stangling. This change applies to the ground version only. Up B--- At the apex of his Dark Dive jump, instead of dat BUMASS uppercut, G quickly charges & fires his smaller OOT energy ball downward...similar to Ray of Punishment. This should somewhat cover his landing, should he miss the grab portion Down B: Call this "Wizard's Sleeve" since move is now a combo-breaker/pseudo recovery/mix-up option in one. G quickly vanishes then reappears directly overhead from a portal with a dive attack. Hold down for his OOT dive punch...or hold left/right right for his SSB4 Wizard's Dropkick. This move is like G's version of Akuma's "Misogi". The OOT punch version creates a small shockwave on landing.....and the punch crumples a SHIELDING opponent on contact >:)...To compensate for this BS, the dive punch has high landing lag Jab--- "Dark Brace." Same as before, but now has a weak reflector. Multiplies projectile speed not damage. OOT Deadman's Volley reference Up Tilt--- "Death Mountain." This move is ass. So how about the foot flames that appear while G's is charging the kick...actually have a weak trapping hitbox? That can maybe combo into the explosion sourspot? Who knows... Down Tilt--- "Cursed Crest." Repurpose his Down-Throw animation for this move. He'll slam the ground making a glowing triforce triangle appear for a disjointed hitbox. Its a magic move that references the Puppet Zelda fight in TP Nair--- "Maelstrom." Replace the kicks with two swirling dark/malice/phantom/whatever energy trails, for two disjointed hitboxes. As for animation, for anyone who played MvC2... think Venom's Air Heavy Kick Uair--- "Sinister Sweep." G now does a floaty frontflip, kicking with both feet overhead. For MvC2 Storm mains...think her Air Medium Kick Down Throw--- "Curb Stomp." G disrespectfully curb stomps his opponent's head. Simple. Dope. Back Throw--- "Dismiss." G effortlessly throws his opponent behind him without even looking, treating them like a nuissance rather than a credible threat.

[@sukmykrok3388]

For more details of ganondorf's history, check out their INCOMPLETE competitive history video.

[@eddiec9756]

I would have changed his down b to the smash 4 custom he had wizards dropkick so that it gives him an approach option and a recovery tool. I remember it being a really good move in custom tournaments.

[@Fishofmanyhonor]

People might disagree but I think his neutral B should the lightning bolt he summons in OOT that can be hit back with the master sword.

[@holdthat4090]

Make the DORIYAH!! louder.

[@thatonesaiyan6309]

how i'd change him to be more viable as well as more true to the zelda games -change his up special to something more like what peach has. remove the command grab function in favour of regular damage, add the ability to float, and maybe buff the vertical range a bit. -replace the warlock punch with his magic projectile attacks (like the ones he uses in oot). warlock punch is fun and all, but its based on the falcon punch, not anything from his original series. its also hard to use, and ganon could benefit from having access to a projectile. theres also the possibility of adding in the ability to send it back and forth between ganon and the opponent by hitting it with a disjointed attack (sword, other projectile, etc) and with ganon pressing neutral special again to to reflect it back at the opponent. i think that it would be an interesting mechanic to add to the game. it could function like samus's change shot where you can charge it up and save it for later or just use a weaker version without charging it. and this move in and of itself has a lot of different ways to tweak it for balancing purposes. eg, if storing it after charging is too op then have it fire automatically after fully charging, or if sending it back and forth is hurting ganon more than helping him, adjust which kinds of attacks can send it back, or even just adjusting the base speed and power of the projectile. -fix ganoncide. having ganon die first removes the threat it used to pose off stage. in smash 4, you had to respect ganon at the ledge somewhat because if he drags you down, you lose your stock first, so if its the final stock, he wins. being able to mash out is not the issue, its that now you can force ganon to kill himself on the last stock by getting grabbed on purpose, a bit like with rockcrocking. the way you could fix this is by either restoring it to how it was in smash 4, or by changing it so the dive bomb is activated manually by pressing b again once theyre in the grab (like the difference between cloud's up special vs ikes up special) -general tweaks to hitboxes and things like that to fix stuff like nair not consistently landing both hits.

[@drpres-jpalomino6700]

The only way to make him more viable would be buffing his recovery, but then his nuclear spike and other good aerials would have to be nerfed to balance and I don’t think he would be as fun without those MEAty mfs

[@yeatard]

It is said that only Link can defeat Ganon.

[@crabwaluigi]

The ganon that hung on ledge, bair into side b ftw on Lucina was clean ah

[@totodile9923]

theres a brawl mod where Ganon has his own unique moveset based on his magic attacks from the Zelda games

[@Mepphy99]

The third Guy Who gave Ganon fixes understood everything for the character While i really think float would be too Op on him. Giving him more drift on upB and sideB not giving him Freefall state would Captain Falcon receive similar buff so i am up for that Talking of the latter a mini video on Fix captain Falcon could be done the Guy had some buff but he could receive more love

[@jonathangrondahl2008]

My suggestion: make all his smash attacks frame zero with no endlag

[@katojenkins7344]

Go watch Visheras video “Ganondorf but his attacks are instant” lmfao

[@TheGOAT_]

How we fixed Ridley. He was done dirty by Sakurai and he has potential but he has a few major flaws that bring him down

[@TwilightWonderer]

All Ridley needs is Up-angles. That’s it. Ridley is one of the fastest and strongest characters in the game, has a projectile, a combo throw, Safe aerials, Nair out of shield, good at ledge trapping, and has Big hit-boxes. He’s just under-utilized.

[@TheGOAT_]

Twilight Wonderer as a Ridley main, he has so many other issues making him a mid tier but with a few small changes he could be high tier

[@lesterroyer]

-Down-B needs the priority it had in Smash 4 to be a proper zone breaker and gives him a way to deal with projectiles. -Up-tilt should be Smash 4 up-smash with greatly reduced knockback. It is currently a very useless move, especially since warlock punch is almost always a better option, which is almost never a good one. -Ganoncide should not kill Ganon first. -If the up-tilt change is not made, he should have his energy ball from the games, even if it can be sent back at him with with an attack. This would be neutral-B. -Reduced endlag on up-b for rock crocking. Even if the opponent doesn't rock crock, hitting up-b sometimes send him far enough away from the stage to where he can't make it back anyway. -Fix z-axis problems on usmash, fsmash, and dash attack. -Give Ganon Peach float, or more horizontal travel on up-B. -Aerial warlock punch should have super armor. -Increased knockback on back throw. -Increased autocancel window on fair. -Slight increase to either first jump, or double jump. He has a hard time jumping to plats that aren't BF height. -Reduce jab by 2 frames. He has very few quick punish options, and hitting a jab would not be too consequential. It would just reset neutral. I don't want Ganon to be busted. I just want him to be viable. Any of these fixes would help tremendously. -a 6 year Ganondorf main

[@frogturtle]

Honestly his height pisses me off the most. You just can’t approach certain zoning characters unless they mess up. Maybe give him a low dash profile. And he needs more speed. Bowser is fast, strong, and has armor on the right moves, which are all reasons why he’s a way better heavy. Another idea I think would be cool is putting super armor on his side b instead of warlock punch. Kind of like Falcon. This idea that buffing the crap out of him would make him broken is silly. The best characters in the game are insanely good across the board with maybe one weakness. Even completely revamping two huge weaknesses of Ganon wouldn’t make him better than the best IMO.

[@clips8645]

Ganon needs his down and forward tilt to have intangibility on his legs and down tilt should be able to kill at least 15% eariler

[@pizzaemperor3553]

Maybe actually making him the cunning sorcerer of power he actually is, instead of a braindead brute with a weapon he is almost never shown to use. Give him his trident, and maybe some of his magic. Also give him an out of shield option

[@Venraneld]

Replace Warlock Punch with Dead Man's Volley.

[@Sorakingdom4]

It's called a Techcheck now because Rockcrock was outed as an abuser. Really, look it up.

[@Ethancn12]

THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS. It's true, he's since been cancelled, and it's now called the "Tech Check" or the "No U".

[@wowftw120]

@@Ethancn12 no u lmao

[@isaiahrose9912]

I wish nintendo re-worked Ganondorf to de-clone him but we know that won’t happen

[@PrettyKoolCrocodile]

Same, the balancing team for both Smash 4 and Ultimate never went far into completely redesigning a character and/or their moves to de-clone them. If they ever were to do so, Ganondorf should be the first pick.

[@robertrainford6754]

Hell instead of making more dlc characters just make a dlc patch that fixes all clone characters.