HSS Shaper Cutters: Worthless in the Age of Carbide?

[@woodshopnerdery]

Please check my Community tab for answers to common questions and the latest information! - kzbin.infocommunity

[@alberttreado3713]

Thanks Tom! I must have missed this the first time around!

[@johnhoshock9034]

Very good information, Tom. Your dust collection is fabulous!

[@woodshopnerdery]

Thanks Josh. I was hoping someone would notice the dust collection. I thought the close up shots showed how good the collection is. And routing is a very difficult operation for dust collection.

[@rossgruenberg9700]

Thanks a ton, I recently received a shopsmith 10er with the shaper cutter attachment, but also have a nice craftsman router table. This absolutely helped!

[@woodshopnerdery]

Great to hear, Ross! If you have room for a dedicated router table there might not be much reason to use the 10er routing. Other than the fun of trying it out of course!

[@stoofdriver]

Excellent video- very informative! Carry on

[@woodshopnerdery]

Thank you!

[@chrisdigman389]

Awesome video, good job man!

[@woodshopnerdery]

Thanks Chris! I appreciate the compliment.

[@MyGrowthRings]

Nice review, Tom. Another thing to keep in mind on the steel cutters is that as you sharpen and grind them it slightly changes the profile. For example, on your tongue and groove stet, your tongue will get wider while your groove will get narrower due to the back bevel. Also glad to see the demonstration of sharpening of shaper cutters on the Shopsmith sharpening jig. You told me it was coming and I never should have doubted you! Scott

[@woodshopnerdery]

Great, glad you liked it! On my tongue and groove set (Corob Cutter from Shopsmith) the horizontal parts of the the groove and tongue are not back beveled. So these will not change geometry with sharpening. The vertical faces are back beveled, but at matching angles so they will recede at the same rate when grinding/honing. But, the downside is that without the back bevel it is much more prone to burning. If you notice in the video the tongue/groove part of the cut burnt, but the vertical face which are back beveled did not burn. The glue joint bit (maybe Delta or Craftsman?) is back beveled across the entire edge, but very ingeniously so that the matting parts still mesh. For example, as the middle tongue thins out, the reciprocal middle groove widens as the same rate. Notice there was zero burning with this cutter, which is fully back beveled.

[@MyGrowthRings]

@@woodshopnerdery Excellet, Smithers!

[@randallroberts5795]

Thanks for the comparison ! I assume the carbide bit is a 1/2" shank router bit mounted in the router head for the Shopsmith, and the HSS shaper bits are mounted on the 1/2" shaper arbor. True? Is there any advantage to using actual shaper bits over the same shape router bit?

[@woodshopnerdery]

Correct it’s half inch shanks for both. The three edge cutter over the two has the most impact so I look for what I can get with three edges. If carbide is available with three edges I go carbides due to edge retention. The nice part about HSS steel is you can a very keen edge on them which makes a fantastic cut.

[@randallroberts5795]

@@woodshopnerdery Thanks again ... just discovered your site recently ... keep it up; great info.

[@bigray2859]

Great tutorial! Thank you!

[@woodshopnerdery]

Thanks for the compliment Ray! Glad you enjoyed it.

[@bowerscustomwoodworkingllc]

Good info, thanks for sharing!

[@woodshopnerdery]

You are most welcome. Thanks for watching and dropping in a comment. It really does help me a lot!

[@BadAppleWoodwerx]

Super interesting video Thomas. I have that sharpening jig, but I have no clue how to use all of the functions. Was interesting to see it being put to use. Lemme know if you have a full video focusing on just that, or even parts of videos showing other sharpening methods with it. 👍😎

[@woodshopnerdery]

Thanks Tim. I have not done a video on it yet. I plan to do a review of it in the future. I recommend these videos for learning how to use it. Doug Reid kzbin.info/www/bejne/e5y3ZqxjZ86Yb5Y kzbin.info/www/bejne/gJ23kJWEidN1i9k Hands Online kzbin.info/www/bejne/hZzbdK2mgcqbadk

[@saranjesse23]

I have 500 plus hss cutters that I bought with some shapers from a cabinet shop that closed. I would be willing to sell them all or trade for an adapter to use in my shapers for the newer style cutters. I only build cabinet doors and have the cutters for them. Just need to come up with the spindle adapter

[@woodshopnerdery]

The HSS cutters I have are 1/2 inch bore and are based on the Delta cutters from 80 plus years ago. Corob cutters still makes these and sells a spindle that could be used in a 1/2 router. I’ve seen the 3/4 inch spindles for shapers on Grizzley’s site too. Maybe some options there?

[@Dancing_Alone_wRentals]

Ahhh, I posted a video today asking what the bit was....and wallah! You answered. It is for cutting tongues. KZbin is great......and so was your video. tHanks for posting. (unlike my videos...which are lame....on their best days )

[@dwightbennett3548]

Great information. Thank You. I have a shop smith with the same HSS cutters. Will you let us know where you picked up the stones and holder ?

[@woodshopnerdery]

Hi Dwight! I'm very glad you liked the video. Thanks for watching and commenting, it really helps me out. I actually go into some detail about these sharpening stones in a recent video including making a few comments on shaper cutter sharpening. The product link is in the video description section but you can get these products from Amazon as well. kzbin.info/www/bejne/o2SWpnSQg7OEj9k

[@justcruisin109]

Interesting video so thanks. I'd not seen Shopsmith cutters before - I've only used 'normal' shapers before using either a multifunction cutter with interchangeable profile knives or specific purpose carbide cutters. For one-off jobs, it's hard to beat a HSS profile knife for both cost and quality of cut. More production work (plus man made materials like MDF, ply, etc) are better with carbide in my experience. Your sharpening skills are great - matching grinds on two separate profile knives is clearly beyond my skill level. Cheers

[@woodshopnerdery]

Thanks for the compliment and thank for commenting. Regarding sharpening, all I do is count the strokes on each of the three edges. That is working so far and I do enjoy using the HSS bits although I agree with you, I'll be investing most of my money in carbide bits.

[@ellisreeves8936]

Tom, this was a nice video, however, I have a concern for your safety. You stated you were using a 3-inch carbide cutter, SS says in their manual to limit size to no larger than 2-1/8 in diameter. The 3 certainly did perform well, however, please verify with SS if it's safe before using again. Ellis

[@woodshopnerdery]

Thanks Ellis, as I recall you are correct about the size limits. I don`t own any 3 inch bits and the bits in the video are well under 2 inches. I might have said "3 edge" and it sounded like "3 inch" maybe?

[@sassafrasvalley1939]

I could never keep HSS sharp… I gave up on them years ago. However, there are a few oddball shapes that I still use. The occasional or one off use screams… HSS!

[@woodshopnerdery]

Thanks Dave. I agree, but I have not given up totally on these HSS cutters. I didn't call it out in the video but I've had some crap carbide bits and I would pick the HSS over those. But the brand name carbide like CMT and Frued are just SO SMOOTH!

[@Woodcademy]

Carbide is the easiest choice for the hobby woodworker, but pros prefer HSS when we can get it, especially in shaper knives. Carbide lasts long, that is its only advantage. HSS can be sharpened to a MUCH finer edge which simply cuts wood better and more cleanly than any grade of carbide can. HSS also tolerates heat far better than carbide which breaks down rapidly when overheated. HSS is much easier to sharpen than carbide and can be ground by the end user to custom shapes. Carbide has become the go-to for smaller router bits, but it simply cannot cut as well as HSS, which is why professional use it in MOST shapers and molders. Companies that run 5, 6 and 7 head molders to manufacture thousands of lineal feet of molding a day are NOT using carbide to do so.

[@woodshopnerdery]

Mr. Bagnall, thank you for adding you expertise to the comments section here. Great points, unfortunately sharpening HSS is a skill that many of us hobbyist have neglected to develop. I am making an attempt to brush up on my sharpening skills, at one point years ago I was pretty good at it. It's a great pleasure to have your comment on my channel. I have followed you for a few years now including Season 1 and 2 of Woodcademy, I believe I watched that on Amazon Prime. Also, your instructional videos for MicroJig, Corob Cutters, and other have been very helpful to me. Thanks you.

[@Woodcademy]

@@woodshopnerdery be sure to check out the Corob Cutters channel on here, I do cover honing the shaper knives. It’s the same technique as for carbide, but diamond is not required. In both cases, the flat face is re-flattened to restore the edge. You do not even try to sharpen the profile itself.

[@Woodcademy]

@@woodshopnerdery and thanks for the kind words… subscribing.

[@samlogosz8422]

Those shaper cutters are not designed to run at 20.000 RPM. more like around 8.000 RPM. Feed speed makes a difference depending on how much material your removing. When I build cabinet doors. I set the on one spindle shaper for cutting the copes at 10.000 RPM. at a slower feed rate because I'm cutting end grain material and I cut my sticks at about 7.000 RPM at a little faster rate. These cutters are about four inches in diameter. My point is you will develop how fast you should feed the material through weather using a router or spindle shaper. I have a few of those HSS cutters and running those on a spindle shaper is better because you have a cast iron top and it's more robust so you get a smoother cut. I do use a router mounted on a table and sometimes that is my go to when I do certain operations.

[@woodshopnerdery]

Great information Sam. Thanks for sharing!

[@StephenADraper]

Carob makes the HSS cutters. Get them new and they are razor sharp. Those are shaper cutters you have.

[@Guds777]

You are sharpening wrong face of the cutter. Like when you are sharpening a chisel, you never sharpen the flat face, you sharpen the top face. Sometimes you can hone the bottom side to fix the factory grinding, but you never grind down the bottom...

[@woodshopnerdery]

I'm not aware of the method you mentioned. Since the bevels of the cutters are often profiled just as an ogee, I think it would be pretty difficult. I learn the method I showed from the book "Power Tool Woodworking For Every One." The same method is documented elsewhere, including by Corob Cutters, a shaper cutter manufacturer and Workshop Companion. corobcutters.com/faq/how-can-i-sharpen-shaper-cutters workshopcompanion.com/KnowHow/Tools/Sharpening/11_Touching_Up_Cutters/11_Touching_Up_Cutters.htm