2024 SMASH BROS MELEE TIER LIST

[@hadi7474]

That deep Marth analysis was something else

[@BatYrRrrr]

Ikr

[@axr1798]

It was as deep and complex as Marth's neutral

[@TheBeggies95]

@@axr1798Casual, marth neutral is harder than most top tiers

[@samnsamole9448]

marth biggy swingy sword, big grabba the hands. FORWARD SMASH

[@LikelyHexoadine]

true, bro spent 9 minutes explaining it

[@vesoralla2]

Ganondorf having his own tier just like he currently does in Ultimate.

[@Darby-wn7fx]

Yeah it sucks

[@benferrisinverts4198]

@@Darby-wn7fxhes atleast mid in melee

[@queuedjar4578]

He's just tiering there, menacingly.

[@dondaketype8811]

Being the line is better than bottom of the barrel

[@יואבישראלי-ב3ק]

Bro forgot mac and dedede

[@alexandermartin3328]

i like how there are tier list updates even though this game has never had any patches, buffs, nerfs etc. people just find ways to optimize chars

[@peckop1793]

😂😂😂😂 it's because the little things count more when everyone is on the same level

[@YourPalJamieEllis]

The structure of how a new character choice goes from crap to seasoned to optimizing has been revolutionized by Slippi. The levels of improvement that used to take strong player months can now be knocked out by a hardworking and natively adept gaming student in a few dedicated weeks.

[@tomwanders6022]

Honestly main reason I like melee and hate league of legends pro. Melee shows people actually adapt to what you see, in league of legends most pros just play the same 5 champs over and over. I started watching both games a lot more in pro in 2014 and it’s cool how insane melee has developed, while in league of legends there is a lot of things like drafting and denial of resources not even used yet.

[@UnstoppableTheStreamSniper]

MARIO! ICE CLIMBERS! CAPTAIN FALCON! gannondorf.

[@eddiestilll]

The monke renaissance is something truly magical for Melee in 2024.

[@LikelyHexoadine]

oooo ooo aa aaa ahh renaissance! i'm all for it tho

[@InsertFunnyThingHere]

I'd like to blame aMSa for inspiring so many people to try and make waves with characters that were previously considered trash even though there's a 90% chance that he barely had to do with it

[@iAmFlashGordon45]

​@@InsertFunnyThingHerewdym he barely had anything to do with it

[@InsertFunnyThingHere]

@@iAmFlashGordon45 I mean realistically low tiers being developed by specialists stubbornly continuing to play them even if everyone said they were trash was gonna happen with or without aMSa proving that it could genuinely have results

[@JeffPenaify]

really makes you think, for 20 years Yoshi and DK were considered bottom of the barrel by the best players in the world, if you were to say DK and Yoshi could win a major 2019 people would say you dont know anything about top level play and there is no way these characters can get consistent results. Slippi only been around for a couple years and the DK phenomenon has happened, my theory is all it takes is a really talented player who is fully comitted to weaker characters to bring out innovations. Samus, G and W, Bowser and Link all have alot of potential in the coming years imo

[@bulb9970]

“Sheen, this is the 7th Melee tier list in a row where only one character changes” “This time it’s different. It’s not Yoshi, it’s Donkey Kong!”

[@KaitlynBurnellMath]

Way more than DK changed from Hbox's last tier list. * Bowser Above Kirby is new * G&W above Mewtwo is new * Young Link above Mewtwo is new * Roy above Link and Mario is new * Doc above Luigi is new * DK above Doc and Luigi is new * Yoshi moved back down below Captain Falcon and Peach (Plus some tiers got larger or smaller but I don't really care about that). And...honestly I agree with most of these changes. I think maybe moving G&W above Mewtwo is a bit premature (Leffen's Mewtwo has still done more than any one G&W so far, including Cody's G&W), but I can see the logic behind most of these moves based on the past year and a half.

[@honathan2135]

​@@KaitlynBurnellMath Im ngl I can see Mewtwo being moved above mario because Mewtwo was technically #1 in Europe with Mewtwo

[@KaitlynBurnellMath]

@@honathan2135 Honestly, Mario is an enigma cause there just isn't a serious Mario player right now (even Mango has moved on to Doc). So yeah, I could see Mario moving down if things continue like this for a long time, or up if someone picks up the character and starts doing well.

[@victorianomas89]

​@@honathan2135 that was when EU was playing PAL, no? PAL has different stats

[@honathan2135]

@@victorianomas89 no, Europe switched to ntsc a good while back

[@KRILLINTM-lx2cl]

Roy improved a lot since Slippy came out, it's interesting how deeply unexplored this character was. Thanks LAG and DTM to show the world that the meta is not always about moves on paper, it's about performance too.

[@Oh-Ben]

Roy mains always stated he was unexplored but they also didn't want to admit they where just bad.

[@KRILLINTM-lx2cl]

@@Oh-Ben Naaah, Roy was well represented in many periods (NEO, Sethlon, Lunchables), but they didn't have the skill gap of Zain's to make insanely good results. And LAG probably shows the fundamentals of Roy in the new meta game.

[@Oh-Ben]

@@KRILLINTM-lx2cl Well represented but I wouldn't call it great. Sethlon wouldn't commit to improving because his habit of busting out Fsmash in neutral. Most Roy mains where only notable because they played Roy, not because they where good.

[@KRILLINTM-lx2cl]

@@Oh-Ben That's what I say about LAG, he has developed Roy to make consistent setups to make the character solid with 5 years of predictable habits in the prime of top tier adjustments to make the actual meta

[@NotYourFriend-YT]

I was watching an m2k stream last night, and he said "DK has a TON of uncharted territory when it comes to melee" ... like, his ability to destroy fast fallers is incredible. It's going to be interesting to see how these lists change / evolve over the next couple years. (I'm a DK fan, let me have my copium haha)

[@SALTYTOAD00]

I find it so funny that Ganondorf has a tier just for him.

[@DragonMaster1818]

In 2 different games too (and probably in brawl too)

[@TheBeggies95]

@@DragonMaster1818I think he is the absolute worst in Brawl

[@theobserver4214]

⁠@@TheBeggies95It’s tough to decide between Zelda and Ganondorf iirc, but he’s still comically bad.

[@Gamer14867]

​@DragonMaster1818 For a time he had his own tier in brawl bc he was so bad, that being the G tier

[@chewwa1700]

Even after 20 years, the players of the game are innovating and people who invested in “bad” characters are starting to show that they aren’t actually THAT bad. Very cool. I love Melee.

[@toadboy4]

Melee might actually be the most balanced game in the franchise

[@notlucas6859]

@@toadboy4 i still think 64 is more balanced

[@toadboy4]

@@notlucas6859 I’m not sure on that, but I don’t know much about 64 other than that half of the characters can 0-death you, Pika is broken, and can recover from anywhere, and that Link is terrible and his recovery is a joke, but I guess most of the cast is pretty similar in balance, as well as a lot of the cast of Melee and Ultimate, they just have a few broken and a few terrible characters in each game

[@peachycoke4398]

Any chance Sheik ever rises above Falco? It seems that if Mango retired today, Falco would be in a position like Peach with no top reps and would start slipping as other puffs, sheiks and falcons continue to pop up and do well in bracket. Not to mention other high tiers. I'm not saying Falco will fall out of the top 5 or even top 4 but I could see slipping below sheik

[@iZergCraft]

Ya it seems mango is the only falco capable of winning a major. The fact that he does it proves its possible, but if he wasnt playing would we even know that?

[@SueLulamoon]

Magi exist and to me its a top 10 contender

[@weaselsdawg]

it raises an interesting question of how good a character really is if you need to outplay at such an anomalous level, same as pika and yoshi with axe and amsa

[@billwoods7578]

Sheik is 3rd imo

[@billwoods7578]

@@SueLulamoon Magi isn't close to nor has he ever been a top 10 contender. Seek help.

[@aetriis]

wouldnt expect an ultimate player to make a melee tierlist but i respect the hustle

[@dormancyssbgd]

LMAO

[@Pyro277]

He doesn't know?

[@LennySSBM]

I hope youre joking xD

[@everythingpizzaandknuckles6268]

Best comment lmao

[@FlittaLink]

ikr i thought he was only an online tournament host too

[@xGatorchomp28x]

Maybe we can start hosting "Below Ganondorf" competitions to get these other characters some more exposure! Will be interesting to see how far some of these characters rise! Melee is just getting started!! 😄😄✊💛

[@mtgbudgetbrews]

that sounds fun id love to run it

[@not2mportant.797]

A-Rookie has been pushing Mario for years on end, still don't know why he's considered "Low"

[@PerishMint]

kirby on top

[@Andesite0205]

I thought I was the only one…

[@ricepatty5551]

Real and true

[@technorave555]

ayo

[@Captain_Ineptitude]

If you look at the tier list upside down, yes

[@PerishMint]

nah kirby is just op man

[@WattPheasant]

This is one of the more reasonable Hbox tier lists tbh. I'm a fan. The only part I would contend with is that Roy is not as good as Mario and even Link. We are biased because Zain did so well with Roy being the best Marth player in the world. A cracked Mario can 0-death fastfallers, and a cracked Link can not only beat good Marths but also destroy Falcon and Puff. Both Mario and Link have better recoveries than Roy and can edgeguard better than Roy.

[@nahor88]

Agreed; Roy being above Mario and Link is a JOKE. Wtf Hbox? Aklo literally clowns DTM's Roy in every set they play. Roy does marginally better against the spacies than Link, but Link does considerably better against the floaties.

[@anthonykuglov1417]

I still think bottom top tier is appropriate for Peach - she counters Falco and fox better than falcon (with whom she has a slight losing match up), and her matchup with sheik is near even. She’s even theoretically advanced in the Marth match up as well - she just doesn’t have a lot of representation and I feel like people just think she’s old news after armada quit and you appeared with puff. But even you say the matchup is 60:40! She’s really had the hardest time of any top tier for the entire games existence, sometimes justified sometimes not. But putting her in the same tier as IC and Yoshi just doesn’t feel right, almost as if that’s doing her dirty, especially since she’s the hardest counter for IC and one of the hardest for Yoshi.

[@prophetedubaroque5136]

She's not really the worst for yoshi but she is pretty rough though not that much more than most characters above yoshi

[@Dramilos]

12:10 fantastic statement

[@Jowannabe]

I get bored sometimes coz most players just play high/top tier. I can play for hours in unranked and get matched mostly with top tier, occasionally a high tier and VERY RARELY any of the other tiers. I main Doc and I get so tired of fighting against spacies and marth.

[@Valentinesdayghost]

At least you’re getting a lot of matchup practice, but I understand your struggles. Maybe try reaching out to mid or low tier mains in your region to see if they’ll play with you!

[@theabelstick3495]

I get what you mean, I main Ness and it upsetting to see a top tier quit out just because it's Ness. But when I do play with high+ tiers they sometimes get messed up because they're fighting an unfamiliar character Ness down air is so good like bro wha-

[@a_lie_is]

as a pila player i get learn to consistently combo the fast fallers and SHIEK must be understood fully LOVE MELEE LOVE MIDTIERS WE WILL TAKE OVEEEER

[@xGatorchomp28x]

It's always going to be that way Lol! People play characters they enjoy, and most people enjoy winning and having a high ceiling for growth. 😄😊

[@xGatorchomp28x]

I do love seeing people advance lower tiered characters however. Especially as a Yoshi main. Believe!! 😄😁🦖💚

[@toadboy4]

I love seeing the impact aMSa had on Yoshi’s placement, he truly is a legend!

[@vernon1748]

aMSa the Yoshi GOAT

[@machspeed3333]

Dukes single handily makes me think Mario is better than ganon

[@ScrubbyChubs1917]

Loving the matured perspectives as always. I am biased as a Link player in saying that I believe Sheik is more-so the "glue" of the tier list more than say Fox or Marth is. Sheik invalidates so many lowered tiered characters to the point of forcing them into obscurity. But low tiers, Link especially, actually have underexplored/under-utilized stable flowchart options against the top tiers, including Puff

[@IIIISai]

W link

[@lapplandkun9273]

Really wish more people would pick up link especially since I'm certain many mains dropped him

[@saynotop2w]

This game is more balanced than most people are willing to give it credit for. It’s not too unusual to see a game with 30+ roster that has 4 or less top tiers

[@Oh-Ben]

It also took 20 years for people to explore the cast.

[@zfeazcesd1047]

⁠@@Oh-Benover a decade ago you could still find players killing it with these mid/low tiers…they just weren’t well known. Melee has always been a game where it’s only like 20-30% character and 70-80% skill. 15+ yrs ago I was one of top players in my region and I still took tournament losses to links, gdorf, dk, etc… DK was one character I always thought was super underrated…nasty up-B, b-air and grab game.

[@Oh-Ben]

@@zfeazcesd1047 You really didn't. Finding them was hard as they didn't travel. Saying they existed sure. The main problem is the completive side of Melee didn't form until 2010. Anything before 08-10 really doesn't matter and low tiers couldn't win because that was the games prime era with almost every region having killers and nobody even being close to the games best players. Theres a few reason you're now seeing lower tiers and the main one is slippi. Even with that most of the 2010's low tier notable players where not actually good. They where notable because they where good enough. But nobody explored them proper because if you didn't play Fox you weren't cool. Until you got knowledge checked by a Roy.

[@zfeazcesd1047]

@@Oh-Ben the competitive side of melee was alive well before 2010. I was playing around 2006ish and there were lots of strong regions with top players scattered around the US. i was lucky in that a top 5ish player in the world lived near me that i could play regularly, but people did travel a couple hours or more for tournaments because there was no other option...and you encountered plenty of good low/mid tier players. of course nobody was as good as they are now, but it didn't take 20 years for people to "explore the cast". why disregard people exploring the cast just because they weren't as good as they are now...which is what happens with every competitive game...the more recent eras are better than the older ones.

[@Oh-Ben]

@@zfeazcesd1047 It was in fact, not alive or doing well before 2010.

[@valontin3203]

The clip for DK being a suicide cargo throw is hilarious

[@FirePuff12]

Oh shit 2024 tiers letsgo!

[@SwarmSSBM]

Good pacing on this vid. Love the G&W rep ❤

[@chomp4589]

as a gnw main, i think gnw’s potential is the highest in the game apart from maybe dk or mewtwo.

[@youbewonderin]

As a gnw main I agree. If his shield wasn't practically useless I wonder how much higher he could be.

[@keksidy]

​@@youbewonderinI feel like Game and Watch would at least be high tier if this game had just like one more month in the oven. He's so close to being good, he just got screwed over by some pretty big oversights

[@kaiyaay]

I feel like game and watch goes in ganon or the very bottom of mid tier, offensively he's amazing, defensively he's poor but manageable with medium shields and poweshields

[@Apeman_king_of_apes]

Melee DK my boy, climbing the ranks

[@Balthazar228]

A new Hbox Melee Tier List! Just in time for the Big House 12!

[@XxMcLovinUrMomX]

Ganon main. I wish he had a little bit more tools in melee. He was lit in project m

[@treddox5880]

Same. Project M Ganondorf is my favorite character out of the entire Super Smash Bros series.

[@EmeraldBlade98]

0:51 kirby is a dude hbox lol

[@TheRealMew2king]

PICHU IS NOT 3rd WORST

[@Sike1921]

Better than Ness?

[@fischguy777]

When all the melee characters are considered animals, Samus can be considered a nasty bug that no one wants to be associated with

[@skyninegaming]

Hbox always criminally underrates puff. I never know if he's tiering based off top current placements, reasonable future peak, or overall usage/win %s, but I always disagree with how he tiers puff. That character auto punishes so many bad habits and completely dominates the pacing of the game to a degree where tiering her outside of top 4 is insane. I'd personally think she's number 3, but in no universe is sheik better than puff.

[@kosmokittens]

I know it’s been a month but I just wanna get this out there. I think out of most characters not ever. Luigi has some of the best potential. Plup played solo Luigi at a tournament one time as it challenge for getting 1000 retweets and he got fifth place and he doesn’t even main Luigi, imagine somebody who mains this character and does as well as plup. Yes I know he has vulnerable air mobility, but the thing is Luigi does best on and is most feared on is the ground. due to his up b and his chain grabs Luigi’s combo game on the ground has more versatility than most characters. I know he’s obviously not going to be top-tier, but if somebody manages to do good with Luigi, we could have another amsa deal happen because amsa single-handedly brought Yoshi to high tier by himself when Yoshi was considered the sixth worst character in the entire game. if one singular person can do that with Yoshi I feel like somebody else can do that with Luigi. Because what amsa did is he use the tools that Yoshi gives him perfectly winning the hardest tournament in 22 years back in 2022, so if someone is able to do that with Yoshi and uses his tools correctly. somebody is definitely able to use Luigi’s tools to the finest and bring him up to how much potential Luigi has

[@PennyFizz]

despite dk's "terrible" sheik and ics matchups, Junebug has multiple wins on high level icies (JJM, Khryke x2) and sheik (krudo x2, juicebox) players

[@lapplandkun9273]

It's been worked on in the DK documentary. Giant punch destroys icies punishes because the pushback and shieldstun is ridiculous and DK can grab nana and toss her into the abyss.

[@WillyMacShow]

Bro waiting for this

[@Nicohoho]

Unexpected to see you fuck with melee

[@oaklex4948]

I remember M2K vouching for DK a long time ago

[@TheBeggies95]

M2K’s mind is ahead of the meta

[@WildlandsGG]

Feel like if melee ever enters an era where the most optimal strat is to multi-main, it'd be so cool and novel to see a tierlist of duo or tri-main setups. Like imagine having to Bo5 someone who has a samus, luigi, and peach.

[@heideknightgauntlets]

i want there to one day be a mario renaissance. he’s got so much sauce, seriously sickest character in the game behind maybe falcon. i just wish that theres something we don’t know about him and one day we figure it out to make him at least semi viable like doc.

[@SiMgUrL1721]

I highly doubt that Mario will ever be a Top or even a High Tier character in Melee ever again like he was in the beginning since he certainly doesn't excel in the ability department. He's just basically an average Joe type of fighter. Plus, his Down aerial aka Drill kick move can't even KO opponents at all (not even at 999%).

[@massi4h]

@@SiMgUrL1721 Neither do fox's lasers.

[@SiMgUrL1721]

@@massi4h However, Mario's down aerial move is not a projectile. I don't understand why Mario's down aerial isn't a kill move, but Luigi's down aerial is a strong kill move in Melee.

[@djhooker8782]

@@SiMgUrL1721it’s a combo tool, foxes drill doesn’t kill either

[@heideknightgauntlets]

@@SiMgUrL1721 it’s not used for killing it’s used as a combo move, his fair should kill like docs. if only that move was a spike and not a meteor i’m sure he would be considered viable. the only thing holding him back are kill confirms and ko power. also he isn’t an average joe, he’s extremely fun to play and watch when in the right hands. scorpion master & sozin are the biggest examples.

[@kquindarlewisfyindujbar]

2:40 THANK YOU BRO! I BEEN SAYING THIS!!!!

[@pablopa_SSBM]

Melee's meta is crazy good

[@NZsaltz]

Why am I hearing the soundtrack to the obscure SNES game Plok in the background???

[@paleoscinkus542]

I always thought that Bowser was never the absolute worst character in the game. Don’t get me wrong, he’s awful and can’t approach or play neutral but at least he can capitalize off of successful exchanges and can edgeguard. I’d place him at 23rd overall.

[@Wedamame]

bro talked more about ness than marth💀

[@Dominic13337]

It's kinda been done to death, everyone knows why marth is good

[@thesmilingvagrants]

I'll never forget the first time I saw the new DK combos/tech, whenever that was

[@TheGreenthunder200]

LETS GOOOO BOWSER REDEMPTION ARC????

[@thatfellow7556]

I love Hungrybox, He's one groovy cat.

[@EmilianoBenjaminRuizAspe]

It's simply amazing how the competitive Melee is *more alive than the competitive Ultimate*

[@thuroria7631]

Because one is a competitive game, other is a party game.

[@Donkeykong37392]

It's simply amazing how this just isn't true at all

[@superspringbroth]

good content, this is pretty out there so at least it's not boring

[@gianlucatartaro1335]

The fact that Hbox has Roy anywhere above bottom 6 is shameful 😂 At BEST, Roy is just above Ness and Zelda. MewTwo and G&W have SO MUCH MORE variety than Roy. Sorry Juan, but it very clearly is because of DTM. Roy is a poorly designed piece of garbage, and any kill before 200% on anybody but a spacie is a miracle. IMO he is bottom 4, but I give wiggle room for him to go above Zelda and Ness. Above MARIO though??? That is a JOKE. Just finished the vid, and honestly everything else is pretty spot on. I even agree with putting Falcon in the top tier. Just that Roy placement… There is no chance that Roy is above Mario, the Links, or even MewTwo or Ness. Far too much garbage in his kit. Zero aerials, one tilt, and a good grab don’t make a character, even with good smashes.

[@soulrebellion]

I'd only put Mewtwo higher than G&W, Young Link and Mario. Link and Mewtwo are probably closer to Ganondorf than the other low tiers. Fully agree with the rest.

[@SiMgUrL1721]

Mario is a Mid Tier, not a Low Tier character in Melee.

[@bigtimetimmyjim6486]

HBox doing a tier list is fantastic. He is someone who literally took a character that everyone viewed as garbage and showed how menacing it can be, so he knows that a lot of characters have untapped potential and can be viable in the right hands.

[@jandaxprss6784]

Literally shifts your entire hurtbox and hitbox. Young link has the real disjoint you should be afraid of boys. He had it all along too. That character came in off the fabric of melee. And you didn’t notice the biggest glitch in that game either. Dang. I love this series. Wait until deluxe.

[@Thierce]

what?

[@haidynwendlandt2479]

I love how Ganondorf is like, the decider. If you have a winning matchup against ganondorf you probably are good. If you have a losing matchup against ganondorf you probably are bad

[@Rudepetsclub]

Feel like with the recent rise of Kong he should be above Samus. Feel like I haven’t seen any Samus currently making waves

[@qwsa283]

kirby is literally so much better than bowser that it's unreal. Bowser just happens to be much better against puff while worse against almost every other character

[@jandaxprss6784]

Man I just think it’s hilarious how nobody has yet to find the actual most broken disjoint in this game. Should’ve watched GIMR tech close. You don’t even know the full slingshot implementation. Instead of flicking the stick IN, down-out. Flip it up-out. And Nair just does all kinds of crazy things you didn’t even think. Pikachu was probably one of the most difficult characters to show that off though. Wait until you all figure out what that reverse N-air can really do. You already thought the move was busted too. Never thought you could slingshot in melee too did you though. You still haven’t even found half the tech yet boys. Ultimate’s here to stay once you find reverse N-Air in both games.

[@scarnovak5298]

This is probably the only tier list of a pro I completely agree with

[@Astro-gh6zr]

your the reason i started playing melee

[@riffz6065]

Mewtwo, GNW and DK and Dr Mario are the most doubted but in my mind all have the potential to rise the ranks. Junebug already leading the DK renaissance.

[@LordFartamor]

Hi juan did I perhaps change your opinion about kirby...

[@alexanderlane7863]

DK for high tier just under ICs, the advantages that this char has over pika and Samus will only be one more apparent with time.

[@pamoon_]

Ah yes Ganon, the bouncer that lets the mid and higher tiers in the club but doesn't go in the club himself.

[@redwarrior118]

Yoshi deserves to be a top tier alongside falcon and sheik

[@Polaris1742]

The distance between the bottom of the top tier (Falcon) and the top of the top tier (Fox) kind of seems like a lot though

[@robertseptim3579]

The king of Smash doesn't know Kirby's a boy?

[@666blaziken]

Good list, I would've been down to see something a bit spicier though. Like what if you put puff at number 1 especially since you won a lot of tournaments, or you decided to act defensive of jigglypuff and put her in mid tier saying that everyone is bad at playing against her. Would be hilarious.

[@memele4991]

Currently investing in link stocks, I think he can pass the ganon line but i'm optimistic

[@DoctorHazy]

Great tier list.

[@LowTierFallout]

I think the time is fast approaching where Falcon is considered the 5th best over Jiggs.

[@gunkmaster8075]

oh my poor darling boy ness god rest his soul

[@drakejoshofficialyoutubech5569]

Going game 5 with DontTestMe that one time really affected how Hbox sees Melee Roy huh

[@techngamin]

I love how every low and mid tier clip is Mango getting bodied

[@deathroll5701]

just showing mago getting bodied by the middle tiers is a nice touch

[@darkdoctor1915]

Doc remains consistent, yet roy being better than Mario, that's crazy

[@ultramario4309]

Saying that Mario can't kill is a bit wrong, he does struggle but has methods to take stocks well, but his placement makes sense regardless.

[@SiMgUrL1721]

Mario only has trouble KOing opponents sometimes is because that his overall stats are completely average in Melee. Since his strongest finishers seems to only be his smash attacks (especially his Forward Smash) and his Back Throw move.

[@wilber1616]

Solid list woulda maybe broken “low” into two different ranks but I can’t really complain

[@YURTZYN42]

hbox'es tier lists are steadily improving as the years go. He is starting to give more credit where they are due. I will say ganon is better than doc/luigi though. Doc and Luigi both suffer this annoying issue issue where they are easy to play, but as you play vs better and more defensive players, you begin to notice that Doc and Luigi are not exactly fast enough to make aggressive plays while not having big enough limbs to deal with plat camping. Its how DK hopped over them because DK can use charge punch to incentivise approaches andhe can shark platcamping. Ganon doesn't have a charge punch BUT he has HUGE hitboxes with his bigass limbs and is surprisingly hard to run from. Amazing uair to discourage very defensive or plat campy play and that has alot of value in today's very defensive meta. If melee was more aggro, Luigi is easily 3 or 4 spots higher. He might even be high tier tbh in a more aggressive version of melee where platcamping doesn't exist.

[@Spazkle]

I dont even watch melee all that much but gnw has SO MUCH potential

[@dylanmuller2611]

I'm still holding my luigi stonks from wayyyyyy long ago

[@thomashanson3476]

Game and watch recognition finally. I've been saying this all year but the locals dwellers could not accept it.

[@125conman]

As a Luigi main with a secondary Young Link, I shall be crying myself to sleep tonight.

[@CaptainWafflos]

SICK PLOK BG MUSIC BRO

[@halfwitt464]

An Amsa G&W and Luigi would be hype.

[@trueblueryu5713]

Mac got bodied repeatedly as Bowser when doing his iron man and still believes Bowser isn’t the worst in the game. Somewhat impressed with that mindset.

[@lounowell4171]

You should actually look up the differences between Doc and Mario, like the objective frame data. They're not very different.

[@matthewmazzatto8003]

The big difference is their Fairs. Both can combo into it, but Doc's actually kills at reasonable percents. Mario will frequently get stuck having his opponents at 150% because he doesn't have a reliable kill option.

[@lounowell4171]

@@matthewmazzatto8003 calling doc's fair reliable is a bit of a stretch. Mario has a stronger immediate nair to setup edgeguards in a scramble, and significantly better fsmash for certain match ups (Yoshi being the most noteworthy example). doc's bair is better too and so are pills, but Mario has a bit less end lag on his aerials which can add up a lot over a game. Doc's definitely better, I just don't see how 2 characters could be between them.

[@lounowell4171]

Wrote that on my phone, but I have the list of changes in front of me now. THINGS MARIO HAS OVER DOC: • bair and uair do more damage, have less landing lag • dair has a bigger hitbox, a landing hitbox, less landing lag • fair has less landing lag • jab2/jab3 are faster • up-angled-ftilt does more damage • dsmash has extra disjoint & range • extra hitbox on fsmash • side-b rises more, has more horizontal range • down-b hits more frequently • up-b hits more frequently, is a bit more disjointed at the start • up-b's hitbox lasts 3f longer, which is enough time to sweetspot ledge the frame after you have a hitbox out (doc can't do this) • wall-jump out of up-b • better disjoint on grab • better reverse hitbox on grab and dash-grab • less kb on dthrow/uthrow (better for chaingrabs/combos) • slightly thinner Doc IS better, pills are better, fair is better, bair is better. And he has plenty of other small advantages just like that mario list. Mario's designed to do more damage with rushdown uair combos, while Doc is a zoner that gets more damage and knockback from each individual hit. mario's uair > fsmash and tech-chase > fsmash are reasonable KO methods though. his bair is worse, but it can still edgeguard. doc's nair is a gimmick, really, it's better to have a 3f move with high kb than a slow, low-range KO move (and doc's fair often makes it redundant). they both lose equally hard to top platform camping.

[@SiMgUrL1721]

In a nutshell, Dr. Mario actually excels in the ability department (with having even stronger moves and possessing more reliable finishers) whereas Mario doesn't particularly excel in any stat. That's why Doc is considered to be a better character than his own clone is. So, Doc doesn't have trouble KOing opponents, but Mario does sometimes.

[@lounowell4171]

@@SiMgUrL1721 this seems like a situation where you should be listening, not teaching

[@tVichi]

Can we talk about the original tier list? Zelda at 6-8, captain falcon at 15-16 and yoshi at 19-20. wtf were people thinking

[@lapplandkun9273]

People didn't know how to approach zelda at the time because her lightning kicks were powerful and fast and captain falcon didn't have his stairway to heaven combo from 64 anymore so nobody knew how good he was either. Yoshi was the same as falcon

[@diegodankquixote-wry3242]

Why does no one ever mention the forbidden 8? Any tier list that doesn't include them is an automatic F-tier.

[@twotamatos]

Weirdly I think G&W & Dk should be low tier they r hype in tourney but the shields being broken is just bad, I think mewtwo ness and pichu all have potential to be pushed higher

[@dragonleo_lemon7184]

banger tier list

[@ImSoaren]

dang zain roy actually compy tho. i think worst in middle would be chill :(

[@mkunited7439]

Puff gets destroyed by marth? Cmon didn’t hbox obliterate every top marth for years? I think Zain is just insane against puff

[@thuroria7631]

No, Puff beats Marth. HBox just is coping. Puff's only bad matchup is vs Fox.

[@definitelydoctorproctor]

there is so much more melee to be played

[@Freeborger]

kirby is better then boswer, i personally have won locals and such as a kirby, never seen a bowser make it past top 8 at my locals

[@tunaste]

every character highlight against mang0 lmao i see u hbox 🤣

[@lindenskywalker6881]

I agree with the dk placement… dk is fun af too

[@PrinceSamTV]

That boi got a fade! Boxfade lmaoooooo

[@StrawhatDawn]

Lololo hard for me to believe yoshi and falcon being that high.

[@big-backjack3564]

So hypothetically, if wobbling was never banned, would the ice climbers be the best in the game?

[@ericestrada3530]

Today PeckishCrate learns Kirby is a baby boy