The official Melee balance patch that NO ONE plays

Ah yes, Super Smash Bros Melee. Frozen in time, never changed. EXCEPT THAT IT WAS! Nintendo made an official update to the game that nerfed early every top tier, and buffed many lower characters! It's called PAL, but what is it? What did they change? Why don't we play it??
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[@SonicTheCutehog]

Puff didn't get nerfed in PAL because Puff was thought to be a bad character at the time. There was a small competitive scene around the time, where characters like Sheik, Fox, Falco, and Marth were considered the best characters. Ganondorf was also viewed to be better than Captain Falcon at that time since players didn't know how to consistently hit the knee. Mario was also viewed as the fifth best character in the game, better than Dr. Mario and Luigi.

[@uponeric36]

Yoshi and puff syndrome: cutesy characters, with semi-gimmicky moves, feel bad to pick up at first and will be considered bottom tiers. The devs know this, and buffed them more than they thought anyone would take advantage of, because most peoples first feeling with picking up puff, and especially yoshi, is probably "Ew wtf lmao" then swapping to a known top tier. So once a pro does take them seriously, they move way up in the rankings, more than people would expect from their experience with them.

[@AlhiXD]

Your right--Towards when Brawl was coming out Ganondorf was at the top of the High Tier list in melee. Ye olde SmashBoards days.

[@TitaniumDragon]

@@uponeric36 Yoshi is only really as good as he is due to a number of glitches that they had no idea existed.

[@HeDronHeDronHedron]

@@TitaniumDragonwait what glitches? From what I’ve seen most Yoshi tech is intentional besides djc

[@Voidling242]

@@HeDronHeDronHedron Parrying probably

[@themanbehindyou.216]

Melee players when they get a more balanced game: absolutely disgusting

[@noobtuber10]

​@nan5mj arguably makes mid teirs better like luigi and icies,yoshi samus

[@kittyratrawr]

@nan5mj found the fox player

[@amaramist_]

@@noobtuber10 the buffs are minor and the nerfs are gutting. It simply makes the game less fun for 99% of the playerbase. Kirby goes up *maybe* two spots and the top 5 barely changes. It just makes said top 5 less explosive, which is what Melee is known for

[@shadownite3378]

@nan5mj Agreed. The issue in of itself isn't trying to balance and patch the game. Im all for toning down the top tiers a bit while buffing the mid and low tiers. The issue is how they went about it and the changes themselves were not to the benefit of the game.

[@mrmajikjr]

There's a valid argument that a more balanced game is less entertaining. Fox's high skill ceiling is what makes Melee what it is, and reducing that could be unappealing.

[@riceyydiceyy]

They fixed so much in PAL, but yet Game N Watch still has his small ass shield.

[@fezthedracky8468]

Realistically the only reason NTSC is used is bc NA had the bigger scene early with more money. Thats all there really was to it. No hidden agenda, it's just what the biggest pockets had.

[@amaramist_]

source? the EU scene ran a poll in 2018 to see if they should switch to NTSC or not (they had been running PAL before that) and it came out as 80% for the switch to NTSC. Not sure where you’re getting that from.

[@fezthedracky8468]

@@amaramist_ no what I mean is that in melee formative years, where the majority of money was pumped was NA. It's simply that if you want to make the most money and be considered the best, you have to play the variant that's run by the tournaments with the biggest prize pools and the biggest turnout. It's not "what version is better", it's just that NA simply puts out bigger prize pools, so playing and practicing the version that is used by them is the best option.

[@amaramist_]

@@fezthedracky8468 it’s… also more fun? saying that that is the *only* reason is just false. Also, iirc, if EU didn’t switch to NTSC, the West could’ve switched to PAL the same way. But, they didn’t, because PAL isn’t as fun as NTSC.

[@fezthedracky8468]

@@amaramist_ NA just put more money in it. That's why we wouldn't be able to justify adopting EUs game. In competitive games, you follow the patch where the money is. Simple as.

[@Shiny_SSB]

​​​@@amaramist_ because top players in eu travelled more to na than na players travelled to eu. Switching to ntsc leads to better practice overall because you dont have to constantly switch versions the second you get on an airplane.

[@Nawakooo0]

To be fair, people back in 2002 thought Mario was 5th best in the game so that might be why he got nerfed in PAL.

[@TheTrixster690]

That's exactly the reason.

[@LordFartamor]

I for one, as a kirby main, think we as a community should play this version of melee

[@kirbmaster9405]

Yes

[@ninjaxd9050]

Or atleast import PAL kirby in the US version?

[@qchßormairbnb]

yoo same

[@LovelyDoe1997]

Hungrybox should try a PAL Tourney and see how it goes. That would be great content lmao

[@abbe1255]

Everyone converted to ntsc like 5 years ago

[@Mufflin]

@@abbe1255 We know, seeing pal things occuring would be fun.

[@ryan_raus]

I’d love that

[@blvck5943]

He did armada whooped him

[@Michael-hc2hp]

I mean as he said in the video, he went to DH Winter 2016 and still got destroyed by Armada, players like Cody would still beat him

[@Seltyk]

I would like to see PAL because I suspect it would lead to more character diversity in the upper-echelon of play, but it'll never happen because the top 100, filled to the brim with space animals and Marths, would refuse to (a) get nerfed and (b) get pwnd even harder by aMSa

[@ExoticEio]

I agree

[@3drat56]

Pal was played in Europe and Australia for years and the meta wasn’t super different from NA

[@Seltyk]

@@3drat56 that was before the post-lockdown revolution. We've seen a lot more character diversity lately, as mid-tier mains optimize their characters and players like aMSa and Axe take names with sleeper picks. I suspect a modern PAL meta would look somewhat different from today's NTSC meta. Certainly more Peach and Yoshi players

[@amaramist_]

@@3drat56 Seconded. PAL just makes the explosive top tiers less explosive and everyone just agreed that NTSC is more fun. Gutting the two most played characters doesn’t promote diversity, it just makes the game less fast-paced and fun. The only diversity you’d see an increase in is Peach and Jiggs. Y’all want to participate in a Washington regional?

[@deylonfalkner6287]

a PAL tournament would be Yoshi and Puff that’s it

[@erljeffrey]

6:44 Hbox called Junebug's DK takeover

[@CarthusDojo]

watching Hbox absolutely curb stomp that Falco for the first minute of this video while casually talking about PAL was wild

[@Grimmys]

Did not know you watch hbox

[@ExoticEio]

I love your videos even more now that I know you have a good taste in content 😂❤️❤️ keep up the good work

[@scorpionplays205]

Surprised to see you here Carthu

[@mgugg12]

But have you considered what would happen if goku was a puff main?

[@HylianWindRider]

0:52 The many versions of Street Fighter 2 would like to have a word.

[@Quasartist]

I think the difference is that with each new version of Street Fighter II they were adding more and more characters, stages, and overall features as the games got released, as well as occasionally releasing it for a newer updated platform. Asking people to buy the same game again and on the same platform, over frame data adjustments and balance and such, doesn't present the same strength in the argument. Street Fighter being built with arcades in mind first and home release second also plays a factor. Granted, that could have easily been swayed by Nintendo by adding a few more fighters to Melee that they missed out on like Sonic and Snake so I guess it's one of those situations where both viewpoints are kinda right.

[@mspaintspartanman5230]

@@Quasartist That, and SF2 is just one of the outliers in general. No other game has had as many revisions as that, not even its neighbor, the original Mortal Kombat in 1991 with 5 revisions.

[@Carlitonsp1]

Sheik probably got hit harder because Sheik was seen by many as the best character in early Melee along with Fox. Also, Mario won their Toys R'Us championship, so they might have thought he was strong because of that.

[@nahor88]

Sheik is famously a horrendous match-up for Link in NTSC. Armada himself said Sheik is way more beatable in PAL for Link cuz no chaingrab. Link has way more opportunities to space and set up projectile combos.

[@TheInfernoJesus]

Falcon having access to gentlemen on command is actually insane. It's a massive buff, you can even do it without hitting the opponent.

[@KangasKong9944]

It’s a better balanced game but it will never be changed because top players will never agree to it whose characters got nerfed in pal

[@amaramist_]

Better balanced =! more fun Also, they did basically nothing to make any of the bad characters good again. All PAL really does is make the explosive top tiers melee is known for less explosive. The tier list is basically the same, the matchups are basically the same. Everyone’s just weaker, and that’s not very fun

[@FarawayBrawlHacks]

Better balanced is certainly more fun if you don't play the nerfed

[@amaramist_]

@@FarawayBrawlHacks about 80% of the slippi playerbase play spacies iirc, not to mention the shiek and marth players getting absolutely shafted. People who don’t play the top 5 are the vast minority, and pandering to them by making the game less fun is nonsensical at best and actively killing the scene at worst.

[@randumo24]

Nah, the top tiers didn't really change. It's about the hype plays really. If they didn't take out the spikes, I don't think switching to PAL would be as big of an issue.

[@100organicfreshmemes5]

​@@amaramist_ *4 top tiers get nerfed* "Everyone is weaker" Yeah no lol, Yoshi would be quite a bit better. It's true most matchups haven't significantly been changed but that's because the bottom/low/mid tiers didn't get buffed enough. It's still a step in the right direction.

[@oscarsullivan5983]

as an australian, I find it hilarious seeing people talk abt it as though it’s some ultra secret edition of the game that’s all but completely unheard of. Different versions of the “same” game were pretty common abt 20 yrs ago from what I remember altho that had more to do w/ rentals than game balance.

[@ericharrison4067]

Imagine how much it would shake up the game if we started playing PAL

[@amarskelly9979]

Those exist ?

[@NintenJoe]

It wouldn't - European melee player

[@NintenJoe]

@@poleve5409 I know, as previously stated I'm a European melee player

[@Sightless-vz2wh]

Wow Sakurai is a GAMER to know the first four best characters of Melee that’s insane!!

[@sophietwilight5051]

he is absolutely a gamer.

[@allainangcao28]

PAL is what Sakurai wanted the game to be because he knew it was incomplete after Nintendo gave him like less than a year to make it.

[@achilles8]

@@allainangcao28 i don’t think pal is complete either

[@nahometesfay1112]

​@@allainangcao28PAL is still super janky and doesn't really "solve" anything. I mean compare official PAL tier lists to their contemporary NTSC lists. Also compare PAL tournaments to NTSC ones. The meta barely changes.

[@jak3w]

Pal stands for perfection at last. What a clever person who said that

[@w33aboojones]

I know it'll never happen but I do want some tournaments to run PAL just to see the game more.

[@HarmonicVector]

"Marth fucking obliterates Fox *in PAL."* Huh. So that explains why Leffen thinks the MU is 60-40 Marth.

[@kirbythe64]

I believe we should switch to PAL, totally not cause I play Kirby

[@Pal_EX]

I am in agreement, totally cause I play Kirby

[@zubair1149]

@@Pal_EX and your name is literally Pal

[@kirbythe64]

@@zubair1149 💀😭

[@normalpersonlivingtheirlife]

So this is why we get no support from Nintendo, we fucking hate it when they balance their games 😂

[@yaldabaoth4807]

"Nintendo decided to only give PAL to Europe." That's... kinda the point. PAL versions are European/Australian versions of a game, compatible with european/australian consoles

[@matthiasschuster9505]

yeah, he didnt seem to understand that's the point of PAL versions ^^

[@Sidney_TSG]

Pal version sucks ass. Had no choice but to play it when I was younger and all I wanted to do was real Falco combos.

[@OpalBeats]

a PAL tournament would be sick to see between the top players

[@darienwest4748]

I don't have a problem with Fox and Marth getting nerfed, I have a problem with nearly everything else. There's other ways they could've nerfed Falco without gutting his down air. There's other ways they could've nerfed Sheik without gutting her entire grab game. There's a bunch of random mid and low tiers that got nerfed like Samus, Mario, Ganondorf and Link, when all of them could've used good buffs instead. There's tons of other characters that deserved PAL changes as well, such as Game&Watch and Roy, who are genuinely unfinished characters yet received nothing of note. If anything, players who are frustrated by their character changes will just switch to Fox, who despite his nerfs is still much more reliable than characters like PAL Sheik. The entire meta would become centralized around Fox and Marth, who would be the only characters that can reliably beat floaties anymore. The Ultimate players who want Melee to switch from NTSC to PAL don't understand but they have no idea what they're talking about. Character diversity would get more smaller, the game would become more saturated as a whole, and Ultimate players wouldn't play the game either way, so their opinion should not matter.

[@Aeros802]

"Character diversity would get more smaller, the game would become more saturated as a whole" This is a bunch of none sense I remember when I used to attend SSBM tourneys around 2008-2010. Character diversity then is 100% the same as ANY SSBM event today. Fox, Falco, Marth and Shiek. Then there is the occasional CF, Peach, Puff. Theres 25 characters total in SSBM, with only 4 commonly used characters in SSBM events, that's not very diverse isnt it? This diversity would not even become smaller if we had used PAL.

[@GlitchanBlack]

"There's other ways they could've nerfed Sheik without gutting his entire grab game." Fixed it (and before you ask, the Palutena's Guidance dialogue was made by Nintendo - Sheik being a guy is canon).

[@Krab17]

Marth's spike is in my opinion what saved Melee I only got into Melee because M2K was cracked and loved to watch him bully low tiers. The 0 to deaths and high APM sets this apart from other fighting games. While it sucks for some characters, and many players. Most viewers love to see insane combos.

[@susiebaka3388]

7:11 "thanks jason" lmao

[@drakejoshofficialyoutubech5569]

My only issue with the tier list at the end is that I think Marth could end up being the 4th best character behind Puff and Falco. I just think Marth losing his spike is very detrimental for the character due to how much he uses it to secure stocks. Even with Marth in 2nd, the tier list is still solid, so nice job Box Man.

[@unkyonwn]

He can just reverse up-b instead so it wouldn't be that detrimental tbh.

[@jakefromstatefarm6969]

Marth arguably stays neutral from NTSC to PAL. Dair meteoring means he has to reverse up b, which is a slight nerf, but it also means he can now use dair on stage as a kill confirm on floaties because you can't tech grounded meteors, and that's actually a buff vs floaties. His weight being lower is usually bad but against fox it's actually good because he can't be waveshined. His aerial drift is slightly worse. 3 changes, one is a minor nerf. One is a minor nerf against all characters but also a buff against floaties. One is a minor nerf against all characters but also a buff against fox.

[@keysonlane9548]

Ye but Marth destroys fox the best character

[@JuliusGulius]

Hbox: You're not gonna tell everyone "hey, buy the game all over again"... thats not gonna work with American audiences Todd Howard: Hold my sweet roll

[@nahte123456]

I'm gonna quote someone, may not have heard of him, Hungrybox. "We don't play on PAL because we crave violence."

[@B3rT286]

Melee has been all about making sure people can play Fox and Falco and you can't convince me otherwise

[@ElasticLove12]

If Nintendo did an HD Remix of melee with an original version and a remixed version with balance patches, what kind of changes to characters would you feel would make the game better balanced? Do they touch the top tiers? Or just buff the others?

[@Dilipigus]

I feel like to make a lot of current players happy they would need to buff the other characters up to where the top tiers currently are. Everyone talks about the explosiveness of the game so bringing them up might be the better option for them.

[@ElasticLove12]

@@Dilipigus ya I agree just curious if there are any changes even top players agree on as far as nerfing slightly possible shine not being frame 1 or reduce Marths throw range stuff like that that

[@ln8496]

“If nintendo” theres your answer

[@wolfetteplays8894]

Give bowser’s up-b more reach, and give his attacks super armor

[@ElasticLove12]

@@ln8496 ok “if the community” feel better now that this hypothetical question somehow meets your standards of what is possible? Lol bro chill it’s just a thought

[@theinktician]

PAL is simply the best version of the game. Period. But spacies+ Marth are the majority of the community, as are US Americans. If NTSC had the nerfed Sheik and PAL had the chaingrabs, there'd still be no one fighting for PAL. It's all about the top 3 used characters

[@legacytag]

What makes me laugh is that you just know if we ever did get the fabled 'Melee HD'... It would be PAL, cause that's the most modern version

[@benlundberg3811]

This game was made in 13 months & it's still one of the most competitive Smash games if not THE most competitive Smash game. It still amazes me that a game held together by the digital versions of tape and string have kept this game together for this. Also, I'm glad Kirby got buffed in PAL. Because he was a VERY bad character in both versions despite the buffs given to him. Still glad they at least tried to make him a little better.

[@LeaderOfTheRedNinjas]

European player here who played Pal for years. It's just not as fun, and even though fox is nerfed, he's actually more dominant as the rest of the the top tiers are nerfed harder.

[@vapixdarmana4428]

"Hey buy the game all over again, that's not going to work with american audiences" Fifa/sports games in general would like a word.

[@MadMax-ii8gq]

Plus Call Of Duty.

[@TheTrixster690]

The main reason why Mario and Ganondorf were nerfed in PAL was because the 1st NTSC tier list had them as better characters. Mario was 5th and Ganondorf was 12th.

[@Liggliluff]

Well the real reason is that the Melee-touranment scene got big in USA, and still is, and that's where the NTSC version is. Then they basically force everyone to use the NTSC version for all international tournaments, but that's just how things are.

[@bigmantheguy5762]

I wish tournaments had this version I think it would be fun to watch more characters get some hype

[@kameqblindweaver8296]

The meta in PAL is like... identical to NTSC

[@rafaelbordoni516]

What about that 1.03 version that modders released in 2021 with all the controller fixes and jumping with the Z button? Is it accepted in tournaments yet?

[@AlhiXD]

Hey Hbox--always good to see a smash bro's player from my time still going strong. I think people that find out their characters are being banned will come around when they choose a new main. Banning does more good than bad-people just scared is all.

[@herobrineharry7698]

If we could keep extender in PAL it would be the objective best version

[@junkmail9299]

People don't understand PAL buffs fox... It literally nerfs Fox's 3 hardest MU's. (Marth, Falco, Sheik). If you are lower/mid lvl you might have a difficult time understanding this because Fox Up Smash and Up B gets nerfed too but in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really affect much against Fox's actual hardest MU's. But having Marth, Falco, Sheik nerfs will overall hurt their ability to take stocks off Fox than vise versa. Yes characters like Puff, Falcon, Peach, and Yoshi will get buffed but it will overall encourage Fox players to play more defensive and circle camp with lasers (which is the bigger problem). The problem with PAL is that although some buffs on characters are good, the nerfs are bad. It's an incomplete patch. Anyone can say latest patch means more updated but just like any game, not all patches and updates mean it is balanced better. A better alternative would be a hybrid of PAL and NTSC. But when you compare just PAL and NTSC, NTSC is slightly better in an entertainment perspective, the broken mechanics despite being broken are honestly really good for spectatorship and also just overall maximization of the game. I can see the argument for overall better balance on PAL over NTSC but the fact that Fox doesn't have 2 MU's that are arguably even (marth and falco) means despite his other MU's becoming close, he starts to have better ratio against marth, falco, sheik. The floaty MU's might get closer but Fox still edges them out and now his stronger gameplan is to laser/circle camp more. I personally don't think we need a game where all 26 characters are balanced out but it would be nice if the top 10 or so would be better balanced. A hybrid would be cool but between the two NTSC seems like the right call to me.

[@thejaredwilcurt]

Please do a PAL tourney, and advertise it like a month in advance so everyone has time to get set up and signed up

[@daigocastillo18]

Someone should make a pal tournament but it is the biggest prize pot out of every melee tournament.

[@____Cookie____]

I think it would be cool to see the NTSC and PAL community coexist and have separate tourneys and rankings in America but it might be too complicated

[@amaramist_]

This was the case before 2018, when the EU scene ran a poll to see if they would switch to NTSC or not since the differences were major and they wanted to have one version everyone used and practiced with. That poll resulted in 80% of players supporting a switch to NTSC, because PAL is simply less fun.

[@Liggliluff]

@@amaramist_ I'm really curious who they polled

[@bobboberson8297]

Ironically the only mid tier mains to ever win a major are both from NTSC regions (Axe and Amsa). You would think with the nerfs there would be an australian or european mid tier hero but nope everyone just plays the top tier characters there too

[@raam2023]

Tbh most people that would want to switch to Pal dont even play melee.

[@mjp121]

That’s… a strange non-argument?

[@Errorfile404]

:) didn't know the European ken combo was a thing, so nice of them to still name it after ken though, wholesome

[@quimicalkirby]

at least kirby still has his power in PAL LMAOOO

[@Ryakashi]

Watching hbox casually destroy that Falco at the beginning was hilariously satisfying

[@leonardovierra4527]

We 1000% should play on PAL

[@unkyonwn]

Tell me you dont play melee without telling me that you dont play melee.

[@MajoradeMayhem]

The truth is straightforward: everyone should be playing PAL. It's objectively the best and most recently patched and balanced version.

[@anthonymartire2036]

TIL the Pacific Ocean is the heaviest substance on earth.

[@thefierycharmeleon164]

I wish this version was the version everyone plays. The melee scene is over saturated with fox players so if this PAL version was game everyone played, I think it would personally make the game more appealing to watch and play. I don't play melee myself due to the limited amount of characters I can main.

[@saxeladude]

would you ever consider eating a reviewing a hungry man tv dinner since it's a box for hungry men?

[@Extremekimchi]

What’s that music that’s used at the first 30 seconds? I can’t find the name but I remember it in a pm combo video

[@SamiJ1508]

It would be best if we could combine them to leave the characters that shouldn't have been nerfed alone

[@wolfdragox5563]

Pal makes Kirby actually fun to play

[@veebeegaming]

my favorite smash yt uploaded

[@VaffReverie]

Nintendo now came up with the ultimate plan to destroy melee commu : adding patch

[@TopOfAllWorlds]

I main marth and I want PAL, I think it'd be fun

[@fadeixi4212]

A perfectly balanced melee would for sure make the game go from A to S tier

[@michaelbosch9024]

i'd support a PAL shift

[@seandabomb]

At this point Melee should stay how it is. I think if Project M gets implemented into Slippi it could fill the niche of modded Melee with regular balance patches.. While it's good to want better balance, that ship has sailed for Melee, it should've happened a long time ago.

[@IllusionistsBane]

From the outside, I think it devolved into a Fox-fest. Nothing else.

[@hannibal8810]

@@IllusionistsBane A sheik player is the current frontrunner for best in the world, last year it was a marth

[@susiehaltmann3342]

Wow look at all those kirby buffs. He got a weight increase, a faster dash, a stronger f-tilt, generally more range, a stronger f and d-smash, and less laggy aerials. All that… And hes still the second worst character in the fucking game

[@FriendlyKobold]

Imagine if someone remade Pal to balance the whole Melee roster

[@MadMax-ii8gq]

The PAL version is slightly more balanced and should be considered.

[@JustARTificial]

I live in the UK and while I'm aware of some changes from UTSC to PAL, this makes complete sense to me why when I look back at my time with Melee that I'd ever agree with the UTSC tier lists today.

[@TheKnicks2012]

Should definitely try it out

[@ereez7674]

As a marth ganon dual main the best thing about pal is sheik down throw nerf

[@philswift5340]

As a yoshi main I also want PAL lol. No more sheik chain grabs!

[@rocket_]

If u say that u want pal to be played u either 1. Play Puff 2. Play Yoshi 3. Play Smash Ultimate (aka u dont know what you are talking about)

[@GeneralHewett13]

The PAL version is the only one I have so I’m used to it

[@simanolastname2399]

Tbh, I don't really like PAL. 2 reasons: 1. We've already been on NTSC for so long, it would be near impossible to convince people to switch to PAL. 2. Have you seen the PAL tier lists? They're basically the same. The top X characters are already balanced among themselves in NTSC while the rest sorta... fall behind. The same is true in PAL. PAL just seems like a more miserable experience to play and a less fun game to watch. It would be a change that many people would really dislike (save for the Yoshi players, love u Amsa) and wouldn't actually be this great thing that some people think it is.

[@amaramist_]

PREACH 🙏

[@sczoot6285]

Marth not having a true spike would absolutely sink him in the tier list

[@firestorm3k882]

In PAL he can just forward air to reverse up b (which still kills) instead of forward air to down air

[@sczoot6285]

@@firestorm3k882 is it as situationally applicable? People are definitely able to find dair out of nothing in ntsc

[@firestorm3k882]

@@sczoot6285 Yes, Marth mains in PAL did it in tournament all the time. From what I know every situation where fair to dair combos are also all situations where fair to up b can combo.

[@jakefromstatefarm6969]

​@@sczoot6285also Marths dair being a meteor is actually arguably a buff to him vs puff and other floaties, because he can use dair to fsmash or dair to upsmash to kill confirm at mid percents instead of going for a grab or raw fsmash. He can only do this in PAL because you can't tech grounded meteors, but you can tech grounded spikes.

[@spudsbuchlaw]

Other than Alpha 2, I can't think of a fighting game that doesn't use the latest version

[@christopheollier7242]

Pal is the way. How can kirby still be D tier with this amount of buffs

[@Lagoon7]

we need an ntsc pal hybrid to get the best of both worlds

[@cm3809]

Shout out to Klaus Veen playing in the background, my favourite house artist, so many bangers, I hope that this gets him some more attention and fans, cause he deserves it 😎

[@mycatsleeps]

The main reason PAL isn't used is because of USA's ego and EU's willingness to normalize the playing field.

[@Aeros802]

^

[@GlitchanBlack]

For real. I live in this country and I hate it.

[@cheese1678989]

This is from the perspective of a British Fox + Samus player who grew up with PAL and who prefers NTSC. while it is probably true that part of the reason a lot of top tier mains prefer NTSC is due to PAL nerfing their character, I definitely disagree that this is the only reason or even the main reason. Also I do think it's a bit disingenuous how some puff / icies / yoshi players kinda act like they're being unbiased and just want to play on PAL because it's more "balanced" when they want PAL for that exact same reason those other players want NTSC lol. Some American players seem to think that low tiers are a lot more viable in PAL but that's honestly not the case, most of the low tiers also received nerfs and if you watch European tournaments you will see that they are dominated by spacies / marth / sheik / falcon just the same as American tournaments. At the end of the day I just think that NTSC allows for more expressive, exciting, creative play while in PAL every character just feels somewhat handicapped with the exception of a few floaties. In PAL I actually think Sheik and Falco were nerfed perhaps worse than Fox - Sheik can no longer chaingrab + falco's down air was massively nerfed and fox can tech out of his down throw

[@HiYesThisIsJake]

Dude, if you watch Ice play, you'd think PAL made Fox better. That dude is cracked.

[@dantheman4470]

Can we just take a moment of silence from Mario who didn't deserve to get done dirty like that

[@thebristolbruiser]

Americans hate PAL because it gives you higher resolution and more reliable colours. There’s a reason NTSC is referred to as “Never The Same Colour”.

[@rafacastillo9611]

Sakurai giving so many buffs to his actual child will never not be funny to me.

[@P_Bd]

My dream video is to see a video of hbox and Sakurai playing Melee together

[@FastBreak-xn2yh]

In other words………nobody plays PAL……except for Europe and Australia -Ludvix 😂

[@ninjaxd9050]

I feel like kirby should get its PAL buffs at very least.

[@TheChainsawed]

As a german there is no sense in using NTSC, exactly like the imperial System

[@benjaminsantangelo996]

And this is why Melee will never receive Buff/Nerf mods

[@keromora]

I don’t actually see how this version of melee would be any better. The characters that can compete still can, the one’s that can’t still can’t. This doesn’t expand the roster of viable characters, it just makes the existing ones more frustrating to play. I think if you’re going to make changes like these they should be strictly buffs, and if you’re nerfing they should be numbers only. Changing how a character functions is always frustrating for the people that play said character.

[@CommentPositionInformer]

There are no "characters that can't compete". We literally got Yoshi, an unviable character, winning a supermajor. The difference is that we would at least get to SEE these characters in top eight, instead of three foxes, two falcos, one jigglypuff, one marth and one Sheik.

[@keromora]

@@CommentPositionInformer Yoshi hasn’t been considered unviable for years. Characters like bowser will never win a supermajor pal or otherwise. I agree we’ll see specifically more YOSHI in top 8 but I think most of yoshi’s appeal comes from his rarity. aMsa has shown Yoshi can make top 8 consistently. I’d argue the lack of Yoshi’s in top 8 is more about the lack of Yoshi players in general than the strength of the character. I think if pal somehow made a character tournament viable that wasn’t already it would have a stronger argument but it really doesn’t.

[@CommentPositionInformer]

@@keromora Yoshi hasn't been considered unviable since the latest tierlist in 2021. Amsa won with Yoshi in 2019, when the official tier list had Yoshi in D tier. Yes, Yoshi hasn't been considered unviable for years. *Because* of Amsa. As the years have gone by, more and more low tiers have been getting better placements. There is a whole ass DK renaissance happening as we speak. The difference is that, in PAL, these low tier 'upsets' would've happened *years* ago, and nowadays having characters like DK, GnW and Mewtwo in top 8 would already be normal. Because the gap between the top and bottom of the tier list is massively reduced compared to non-PAL. And thousands of people said the exact same thing about Yoshi, until one man made it happen. That Yoshi would *never* win a major. Alas, reality doesn't have to make sense.

[@keromora]

@@CommentPositionInformer Dude, I don’t know where you’re any of this tbh. Europeans played on pal for years and the meta developed the same way. The current top tiers are still top tier in pal, they’re just less fun to play. Kirby got an obscene amount of buffs from nstc to pal and he’s still dogshit. The pal changes literally do not matter unless you play the few characters that were directly changed. It’s not like young link suddenly beats fox now that his upsmash does slightly less damage. Really all pal did is affect the already viable characters in the game. Peach and puff are slightly better, Yoshi is WAY better tho still a tier below. It’s not actually going to affect any of the other characters because you either have to tools to compete or you don’t, especially since Jigglypuff, a big gate keeper of a lot of the weaker characters remains untouched. Kirby and Bowser are still dogshit, Fox and Marth are still the best characters in the game, nothing considerably changed other than specific things not working. It’s also generally better for the game if fast fallers are better than floaties, since constant floaty mirrors would make the game very boring for spectators.

[@SonicTheCutehog]

They gave Marth Roy Down Air

[@1Nsan3-_-]

I SEE THE LIGHT HBOX NUMBER 1 IN PAL LOL 😂😂

[@markkoetsier6475]

0:50 - 1:00 Meanwhile, at Capcom...

[@Poonkin]

The fact that if melee was released today PAL would be the only version so to me it seems very clear that it should be the standard.

[@saika1615]

Love how I'm watching this while knowing Hbox is in Japan. W

[@BeeBN]

Foxes recovery nerf is justified