今回は呼んでいただきありがとうございました! Thanks for having me on, Matt! Here’s the link to the first half of our convo where we did a language swap. Not gonna lie, I’m a little jealous of his Japanese. kzbin.info/www/bejne/qHOthZSClN2LqZY
@Ihatemyusernamemore3 жыл бұрын
I just watched that video, your english is pretty good aye, like I heard your accent and though "sounds Australian" and then you said you worked in Australia, so I got respect for your language skills
@eundongpark16723 жыл бұрын
I'm Australian so I thought you sounded amazingly neutral, but once you said (in the video on your channel) that you'd spent time in Australia, I did begin to notice your vowels were quite Australian. Your English level is AMAZING and very comfortable to listen to; it takes absolutely no effort at all to understand you.
@humanbean33 жыл бұрын
I really like the premise behind your book. There are a TON of expressions and phrases we use all the time in English. That has to be the hardest part of getting past an intermediate comprehension level. Even "all the time" sounds like an expression haha. I would like a Japanese version of this book actually!
@gordonbgraham3 жыл бұрын
Krashen's "comprehensive input" theory is fine but I think there is a lack in the emphasis on production. I may be misremembering but I think he claims that the only real benefit of "output" for 2nd language learners is the "input" one gets in terms of the response from the native speaker. Obviously, there is a benefit from that in terms of correction or confirmation that one has used the appropriate speech etc. but he ignores the actual production as a necessary part of the acquisition process. That is, one has to pull from one's mind the words and phrases one needs to communicate and that takes some effort and focus, especially in the early stages of acquisition. Also, when learning a 2nd language one is constantly generating those newly learned words and phrases in order to retain them. For example, I would narrate simple tasks in my head, like doing the laundry or buying a train ticket, daily in order to not only "activate" my ability to produce what I had taken in as "comprehensive input", but in order to retain what I had learned through practice. It's like learning a musical instrument. You can have all the "comprehensive input" in the world, but if you never sit down in front of a piano and actually practice, then, as the line in Good Will Hunting goes, a piano will just be "a bunch of keys, three pedals and a box of wood". The point being in order to be able to "play", you have to actually "play".
@eundongpark16723 жыл бұрын
@@gordonbgraham there is also the sheer muscle strength and dexterity in the right parts of your mouth to produce the sounds that are different from your native language(s). After a good pronunciation practice session for Korean, my mouth is so fatigued that I even stumble over and slur English a bit
@toatoa103 жыл бұрын
My favorite thing about this video was where atsu was code switching when he found that he could express some things easier with English idioms than in his native Japanese. I think that was really fun and important to see
@PogMcDog3 жыл бұрын
I struggle with borrowed words in Japanese. I always switch to very fluent english pronunciation confusing my Japanese friends
@shreshthmohan2 жыл бұрын
I find myself doing that a lot with Hindi and English. Though Hindi is my first language, when talking about complex concepts, say, in programming, I find myself having no option but to switch to English, at least for that phrase. And I feel like this is true for a lot of Indians, speakers of different Indian languages, not just Hindi.
@wingsofsteel338 Жыл бұрын
Everyone who speaks at least two languages and we know we're gonna be understood do this 😅
@LyraYT Жыл бұрын
It means that his japanese is not that fluent
@coolbrotherf127 Жыл бұрын
@@PogMcDogborrowed words are harder to pronounce than the originals for me. I just say them in my best approximation of katakana speak so to say. Intuitively knowing exactly what katakana sound maps to what English sound is difficult.
@Mikaela_Westmt3 жыл бұрын
It must've been a hell of a lot of work, I mean translating Japanese into English, and then putting subs in both languages. This was so interesting and fun to watch!
@doxo95973 жыл бұрын
A lot of work, but it probably wasn’t so hard for him.
@deddrz25493 жыл бұрын
@@doxo9597 Maybe, though I've heard that translating never really becomes super easy, because making a proper translation from one language to the other required more creative or logical thinking than just being able to understand the words being said for yourself.
@tcsocal55543 жыл бұрын
@@doxo9597 Or maybe it was fun for them because they're both so good at both languages and because it was a novel and clever way to present the information. I suspect they both liked the challenge of it. They both did a great job.
@ultraali4533 жыл бұрын
You can say that again. Subbing is hard work and not much of it can be automated. This must have taken a lot of work. Lets share it.
@shotakonkin20473 жыл бұрын
私もそう思いだろうくらい、超面白い
@RonaldBradycptgmpy3 жыл бұрын
This was one of the most fascinating conversations about language learning I think I’ve listened to in years. I just wanted to say thank you both for sharing your thoughts, I’m definitely going to watch the other side of the conversation. Thanks for taking the time to do this!
@humanbean33 жыл бұрын
Atsu is a great listener, you could really see him taking in what you're saying. A nice conversation indeed. I also think it's important to put time into all the different ways of learning. I see improvements in some aspects after putting time into others.
@eideardpeschak75463 жыл бұрын
I can relate to Matt's method of learning a language, since i've mostly learned english and german by watching cartoons spoken in both languages and without subtitles. Sure, the grammar of these languages i've learned in school (english) and private lessons (german), but hearing them spoken and making logical connections by myself over and over again, was the most rewarding thing that i could've experienced, which kept me curious and made me push on when things got tough. Also, the way a sentence is structured in a different language helps you in developing a different point of view about things in life. It's amazing. Btw, i've landed here through the channel What I've Learned. :)
@kohei19423 жыл бұрын
自分が思っていることを的確に言語化するあつさんの能力凄いな
@kevinscales3 жыл бұрын
After falling down the rabbit holes of Japanese English learning KZbin and of course English Japanese learning KZbin, this is so cool to see these very different teachers interact.
I love this so much. I can relate to both of their methods because my "method" is to follow my whims, so i do both all the time lol. I've read so many heated arguments online about how either is horrible or that one should never learn from this or that, but when you both presented your reasoning, I was just blown away like I'd been finally understood. thank you for this video!
@mikiohirata96273 жыл бұрын
I totally agree. BC I approach it the same way. It's combination of both their ideas that works.
@dmas77493 ай бұрын
i think learning from one sole source is a horrible idea. its like only talking to one person all the time.
@kanadeayuza24283 жыл бұрын
A very important thing I want to point out in defense of each side of the debate is that English is a high density language, and Japanese is a lot density language. Something I found when studying Portuguese and Japanese is that I could miss a lot of what I was hearing, and still understand the meaning of the sentence or the word. Meanwhile when teaching my girlfriend english, if she misses one word in english, the whole sentence changes meaning, and it's easy to miss one word when every word in english is only 1 or 2 syllables with little vowels being used, instead in english we choose to use 21 different vowels, it's really similar to how tones work in chinese. I think when learning a language with lower density, it helps to work on context and just learning to understand what's being said. But when you want to learn a high information density language like english, it's probably better to make sure you master the fundamentals of the grammars logical struvture, and get familliar with those words and sounds if you want to be accurate in your communications. A great example of this is when Matt said you can just learn the て form of verbs, and while I used that method with portuguese for things like "endo" it just doesn't work in a language like english with our rules for conjugating verbs, as instead we like to pair a word with a verb to change it's meaning, and apply rules to when those words force conjugation. In english it's hard to understand a sentence like "if you can't speak, then tap" if you don't hear the word "speak" then you might just have to hope you can get the context correctly. Like with everything this is very contextual, and an argument can be made for how language learning will NEVER be simple or cut and dry. But I feel this video was a great insight on the way that different people approach language as an idividual (background, naive language, personal motivations). It seems really if you are someone with goals in the long run, and to master something, then Matt's method for learning is great. If you're someone that loves language learning, but don't have the long term motivation to go along with a deep passion, then finding instant use out of a language is a much better way to keep on track. Great video as always Matt, I look forward to more of these colabs!
It's so interesting he mentions learning some key phrases in Australia, I picked up on a hint of an Aussie accent whenever he slipped into English!
@mikiohirata96273 жыл бұрын
He does have very strong Aussie accents still. He worked there for 7 years even though studied Generalized English for long time before going there.
@Sourcoolness3 жыл бұрын
@@mikiohirata9627 Yes as I have watched more of his content I am hearing it a lot more.
@coconutpineapple24893 жыл бұрын
Atsu had an aim which is living and working as an accountant in the English speaking country. He needed high score in TOEIC and IELTS, and he had to prepare some vocabulary and grammar knowledge for work. You need them in the situation. People have different situation such as having fun or working.
@Dontreply395733 жыл бұрын
I have never been to this channel before but I came after a Xiaoma collaboration with Matt, and when watching this video I was hit with my own preconception of language and accents because when Atsueigo spoke a full sentence in English at 9:18 I was expecting an American accent but instead it was an Australian one and that made me do a double take but it makes sense because he was just talking about idioms he heard in Australia, so an Australian accent should have been expected. This was such a cool video, I was just shocked by my own preconception of language and how it was not what I was expecting subconsciously because even though I was not really thinking of what Atsueigo's accent would be in English it was not Australian.
@Tjbcat3 жыл бұрын
Interesting debate! My preferred method is towards Atsu when learning a language, but your method makes sense as well. I guess there's no perfect answer for everyone and that's the beauty of learning a language ;)
@gordonbgraham3 жыл бұрын
In the end, language acquisition is a comprehensive process.
@thejuiceweasel3 жыл бұрын
As a linguistics nut who also happens to want to learn Japanese, this stuff is the best type of comprehensible input. Awesome job on the subs, Matt!
@みるふぁん-p3h3 жыл бұрын
Omg this was super interesting!! As a Japanese English learner, I have all those basic methods or logic that Atsu mentioned in this video, but at the same time I’ve shifted to the comprehension style you mentioned to get to where I’m currently at. So like I used to do adjusting things, but somehow I’ve got to the point where I just know it and don’t even know why. Anyway this was really great video and I hope you guys have another debate sometime!! I’ll try to sophisticate my theory about how to learn a second language efficiently haha
@bullshitdepartment8 ай бұрын
your english is good, and i mean this in the real nonfake way that japanese people say, great job Some minor mistakes: "Anyway this was really great video" should be "Anyway this *a* was really great video" "So like I used to do adjusting things" should be "So like I used to adjust things" or "I was constantly adjusting things" "this was really great video" --- > "this was a really great video"
I loved this debate! I really appreciated hearing the different perspectives. I left Japan at an upper intermediate N3 working on N2 level. It's been 5 years since I've gotten away from daily study and I am definitely lower N3 now. I've forgotten a lot of basic grammar and words are coming back to me as a study. But I was discouraged wondering if I should just start consuming a lot of content (I started listening to more music but couldn't do much more than that with my schedule) or just start ramping up the vocab and eventually fit in some grammar. I settled on the latter but was doubting it was enough. I think I appreciated hearing that there is more than one way to approach it. I think I definitely need a period of time where I am just loading down on the "analytical" stuff again. It gave me permission to continue that way and just make sure to stop and analyze along the way what phase I am in and what my needs are at that point. Maybe that was confusing, but I just appreciated both views! It helped me better understand where I'm at and what I need, because language learning can be so ambiguous... especially when you are self-studying between N3 and N2 in Japanese lol. That huuugggeee gap. xD
@ItsameAlex2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for sharing Morgan:D
@Southpaw1282 жыл бұрын
I started studying Japanese again about 3 months ago after taking a break from my studies for about 3 years after college and this time around I'm increasing my listening comprehension by quite a bit and I find my spoken pronunciation and ability to listen and pick up on fluent Japanese to be way better than before. I still have a lonnnngggg way to go but I feel ownership over my study method and so glad to not be in the class room anymore. Finding your ideal study method is critical cause everyone is different and thinks different. Glad you're back at it 頑張れ!
Refreshing the feed everyday waiting for the next video 😢
@michelrobinet31382 жыл бұрын
Same
@dougtennis51473 жыл бұрын
This was so informative and plain fun to watch! I taught ESL for three years and hearing this discussion in this format has my brain on fire in a good way. So well done!
@andrewshee57463 жыл бұрын
I think it is awesome when you hear a Japanese person speaking English and you can hear the accent of the country where they learned it.
@aaroc82013 жыл бұрын
CAN YOU TWO PLEASE DO MORE COLLABS?? This is genuinely incredible and one of the most pleasing things to listen to
@greengirl49853 жыл бұрын
That was enjoyable! Also good immersion opportunity in both English and Japanese hehe
@onemonthskill3 жыл бұрын
lol I copied down all the Japanese sentences that are relevant to me so I can have a conversation with my Japanese friend about language acquisition. Both really interesting and different approaches, thank you so much for this Anime episode Matt!
@ken3bos2 жыл бұрын
In my opinion about 単語帳 (vocabulary book), I think beginners who are not used to listening can't pick up words they don't know. In that sense, learning Longman Communication 3000 first helped me a lot, and after mastering that I became to be able to listen unknown words.
How is this a debate? Seems like a fruitful discussion on how to understand and learn a new language (through utilizing both perspectives of two given langauges). Very interesting and well done!
Matt's comprehension with Atsu's explanations is just super impressive. The way he acknowledges his speeches and responds instantly to certain statements. It's as if he was raised around these expressions. How does he get his input to such a high level like this? I've been immersing for almost 2 years and I can confidently say there was maybe 2 words I never heard of in Atsu's speeches but a lot of these phrases I either misinterpreted or wasn't able to process it into meaning. How do I go about this? The ambiguity within this is harder to tolerate because I feel like I should know all the shit he's saying.
@letsthink8245 Жыл бұрын
You just have to keep listening and talking to native japanese people till you get it.
Was pleased to be able to follow both sides of this conversation both ways without too much difficulty. Matt the obsessive natural vs Atsu the professional control freak, each with his own perspective, and reaching a lot of the same conclusions nonetheless. :+ )
Ever since our daughter was 16 months old or so this is pretty much exactly how I've spoken with my wife (I speak English and she speaks Polish) when our children are around. I am not famous or anything like that but I would love to talk to you, Matt. I think I have quite an interesting story to share. Let me know if you're interested!
@メイコー鳴光7 ай бұрын
I have long wanted a podcast like this. This structure where they each primarily speak their native language while being fluent in one anothers' is so wonderful, and the code switching for maximum expression is beautiful ❤️ I could listen to these two converse every day.
@gogakushayemi3 жыл бұрын
I've been teaching a few languages in Japan for 13 years, and this whole video seems like a pretty classic summary of "international linguistic thought" vs "Japanese foreign language thought". My students often ask me about HOW to become fluent, since they see me being fluent in Japanese and know that I speak other languages. But hearing Atsu's opinions, I wonder if the average Japanese student could even really learn by my method. ...
@seneca9833 жыл бұрын
Just have your students watch Hololive EN or Nijisanji EN vtubers.
@thebokchoy68543 жыл бұрын
@@seneca983 yes, we must indoctrinate as many people as possible into the hololive rabbit hole
@melissasugi6812 жыл бұрын
I've been in Japan for 13 years as well, and agree that a lot of students seem to take closer to Atsu's method, but I don't think he sounds the same exactly as those (NOT ALL LEARNERS) I've met who are still struggling after many years. He seems like he made more of an effort to express himself and use the words he learned than those I meet who focus on vocabulary AND are not successful. The unsuccessful long-term English students I meet fall under what Matt described, trying to memorize sentences other people made, and not analyzing all the bits and pieces and how the puzzle fits together. I don't think they see it as a puzzle. Thankfully younger learners seem to be doing great, I thank youtube for that!
@Hundreddollardolphin2 жыл бұрын
Both of these approaches are very interesting. Atsu’s formulaic and foundational approach appeals to the part of me that has always been captivated by the etymology of words. As a native English speaker you come across words from so many different root languages but they are comprised of words you might have heard components of which aids in comprehension, I wonder if the same is true for Asian languages.
@dashi3l3 жыл бұрын
I've always wanted to see a collab between Atsu and Matt and we now finally have this great video.
@BrendanishLeo3 жыл бұрын
Thanks for making lots of vids like this Matt. After light learning for a few years, you've managed to re-spark my desire completely to learn Japanese, and at the same time I've gained an interest in linguistics on their own through trying some of Krashen's books!
@jai_bartlett3 жыл бұрын
I've seen a lot of your videos now and I've got to say - your Japanese is perfect. I showed the VR Chat videos of you to my Japanese friend Kentaro, and he said 'Oh, that guy must have been raised in Japan', and when I said you weren't, Kentaro responded with 'Well then he must be half Japanese', and he couldn't believe it when I said you had studied and learnt Japanese from the ground up.
@ShosinMelotic3 жыл бұрын
I really enjoyed watching this video and opening up the comment section. Everyone here is very thorough with their comments and send respectful opinions about the video. I'm currently trying to switch my major into linguistics so watching this video really motivated and reminded me to continue my dreams to understand and learn new languages!
@アルパカ-v1j Жыл бұрын
多分言語学習の王道はMattさんの方なんだろうな。
@Nesterou2 жыл бұрын
You can't imagine how useful your videos are for me. I'm French and teaching English in France, constantly wondering what's the good equilibrium to teach to a crowd with huge disparities in interest and abilities. As for my personal experience I guess I agree with you both. The intuitivity is a huge part to aim for fluency. But the academic work is still much needed to feed your brain to level up IRL. In any case, I'm not sure you really get to choose when to get intuitive vs academic once you start talking to natives / travelling. Sometimes you're in an academic kind of learning and you suddenly get confronted to reality and real practice and you don't have a choice. Either way I love both and in the end, it probably is the "intuitive" part of the learning that follows you for the rest of your life.
@distantforest24813 жыл бұрын
This is interesting. I learnt English at a pretty young age, and I consider it my main language. That being said English isn't my first language. I didn't know it at the time, but development in English took longer than my peers because of this, especially with my listening ability. One thing I wanted to mention is that even with idioms and expressions, books are amazing for this. I read an insane amount of fiction novels when I was young, and I'm pretty sure my reading ability was way above my listening ability. These novels love using these expressions, in order to make the story more colourful and vibrant. Because of this, I had a fascination with expressions and idioms and I wanted to use them in real life. Probably the same fascination that Atsu has. I would read all these expressions and try to use these in real-life, with varying degrees of success. The funny thing though is that most people wouldn't understand me when I used these expressions except for the book-worm type class mates or intellectual type of people. Granted they were early middle schoolers to high schoolers. So my recommendation to Atsu is to read a lot of fiction books! It's a gold mine of idioms and expressions. Even at his stage of fluency, he'd get a clearer picture of the nuances. Plus it's fun to do.
@diariosdelextranjero3 жыл бұрын
Brilliant piece of advice.
@danilofumuso4535 Жыл бұрын
Really cool video! It's funny cause i'm italian and i'm actually searching for how to deal with japanese, from an english native speaker. So for now, i'm improving my english skills as well 😂 (thinking in italian, understanding english to find a way to learn japanese) 🤯🤣
@CicoinTokyo7777 ай бұрын
Ti consiglio di impararlo da un nativo giapponese e non da un non nativo
What an interesting debate! I'm torn between your opinions. I learnt English by myself, by watching cartoons, using my computer and phone in English, and just immersing myself in the language- at 18 i got my c2 certificate. When it comes to Japanese tho, it's a whole different story: I was good with pronunciation, with kanji studies, and memorizing grammar. Speaking Japanese never came to me intuitively- so i wish i had access to vocab books, and more common phrases/ways of expressing myself without feeling lost.
@Drahcir142 жыл бұрын
The point about picking the low-hanging fruit and moving on if you don't understand something is key in achieving maximum learning efficiency and avoiding burnout.
Matt is really intelligent 😂 I agree with atsu on some point but also With what Matt said. Both method are really good and efficient
@JacksHQ3 жыл бұрын
The great thing about the discomfort that comes from ambiguity is that it is the driving force that helps us learn. Our brains naturally strive to avoid discomfort and as a result, they will do what they can to resolve that discomfort (i.e. try to make sense of the unfamiliar). Therefore, it all comes down to our ability to overcome our brain's resistance to putting ourselves in that discomfort in the first place.
Thank you so much for pushing your theory " massive imersion" !! Your theory is a literally game-changer for me. I am a Japanese having been living in Chaina and Taiwan for ten years. I have been persuing to mater English and Manderin. After knowing your channel my attitude to aquire foreign lungauge has been dramatically changed. I really appreciate your peresence !! I would like to demonstrate your theory is correct by becoming a fluent English speakers !
Hi Matt, I'm a Japanese English learner who loves learning English. Atsu's video has brought me to this channel. And your Japanese blows my mind. In terms of this video, it is pretty interesting to hear different opinions about how to get along with different languages. Thank you for making this wonderful video which comes in handy for all language learners!!
@cevcena66923 жыл бұрын
How did you learn fluent English, if I might ask?
@Ryancog3 жыл бұрын
@@cevcena6692 Thank you for your comment, first of all!! Basically, I've been learning English through listening because it is easy way to get exposure to English for me. It also gives me a chance to output by imitating. So looking back, I think that was a worth a shot. In addition to this, "Distinction" which was written by ATSU who is a guest of this video also has made a huge contribution to my English learning because Distinction has lots of interesting phrases which show up among English native speakers' talk. I believe "Distinction" is hands down the best vocabulary book. I also use online English conversation system to brush up my speaking skill. This is a crash course how I learn English. I hope this would be helpful for you. I am a still learner so please take this with a grain of salt. Let's keep learning languages with each other!!!
@saebre.3 жыл бұрын
@@Ryancog Damn, your English is amazing! How long have you been studying?
@ht1ps5553 жыл бұрын
@@Ryancog I’m very blown away by your English. How long have you been learning?
@diariosdelextranjero3 жыл бұрын
Have you appeared for any exams as yet?
@youihuncho3 жыл бұрын
A cool vid I liked how y’all kept going back and forth in languages at will🔥
@eundongpark16723 жыл бұрын
I'd love to see you do a similar thing again where you try to teach him the grammar rules of Japanese as an English speaker learns them, and have him teach you some grammar rules of English as a Japanese speaker learns them.
@Cloudyvi3 жыл бұрын
I totally dig this idea! The way a person explains a grammar rule is so interesting. There are sometimes shortcuts I cannot come up with because my way of thinking is just different.
@eundongpark16723 жыл бұрын
I was interested to see the reaction to finding out stuff about the grammar of your own language that you didn't even know because you learned the language before you even knew what grammar is. For example, I was at uni before someone told me that we use "an" before a noun/adjective/adverb that starts with a vowel (e.g. an elephant) and "a" before a noun/adjective/adverb that starts with a consonant (e.g. a cement wall). And of course there are exceptions (words starting with y and h, for example). I'm interested in both the reaction to the lesson but also just simply to see how it's explained. I'd go to English-teaching channels but stuff this basic is always taught in another language and my listening skills in other languages is too low to understand.
@ntrg32482 жыл бұрын
That would be a fun way for everyone to cringe a lot, the native English speakers would be cringing at the way Japanese people learn and Native Japanese speakers would be cringing at how we would learn at first. It would be good times.
@japoneze65073 жыл бұрын
The best colabo regarding language learning. I've been following you both for quite a long time and I must say that..... 来た~!(ずっと楽しみにしていたのよ、ほんまや)
とても良い議論ですね! "What's your take on that?"とかおもしろい英語も何個かあったので早速使ってみます! Good argument!! There are some interesting english words like "What's your take on that?" so I try using it immediately.
@LucasCardoso-x6f4 ай бұрын
Man, you realy looks like that actor who plays Thaddeus in The Chosen, Giavani Cairo! :D (By the way, I super recommend this TV show. It's amazing.)
@akramrabaa9433 жыл бұрын
I actually wasn't interested in the concept of the video but I was hooked pretty quickly!
@Limemill3 жыл бұрын
I think he makes *a lot* of sense. His approach is this because he had to live abroad and this kinda forces you to go about learning this way: getting lots of thematic vocab and then activating it right away (going to a bank, a hardware store, etc.). Otherwise, some layers of vocab would only be retrieved years and years into immersion as they are very specific and obscure and are not really covered by your slice-of-life material, but you may need them pretty much on day 1 to be able to function in society. Given that you need to speak quickly and you need to operate in this foreign society, your learning journey becomes: shove a bunch of thematic vocab / expressions into your brain; go where you need to go and activate it through speaking; go back home and maybe start noticing this vocab in the content that surrounds you to further solidify its use in various contexts.
@Limemill3 жыл бұрын
@@丛雨线 yeah, you will probably pick it up. The question is when. You'll arrive there in maybe 2 or 3 years, but you need to know all the context surrounding banking operations *now*. Or you shower just got broken and you need to go to a hardware store and ask for some obscure things you barely know in your own language (oftentimes you in fact don't). So you don't have a choice: you need several dozen words and phrases, all put into context, that you can kinda memorize and use to navigate in the upcoming conversation. Only then will you probably start seeing some of that vocab in your immersion (aka your daily life when living abroad)
@fangornthewise3 жыл бұрын
Your comment makes no sense, living in a country is THE immersion method, what we do by immersing through media and using flascards is basically an attempt to emulate that. If you are really needing/using those words in your daily life, you WILL pick those up very quickly, you don't need to shove a bunch of thematic vocab in an artificial manner, the "theme" is your life. That's the number one concept of learning through immersion and probably the situation in which you need "artificial" input the least.
@Eric-le3uu3 жыл бұрын
@@fangornthewise I agree with Nero. If you need a certain subset of vocabulary, you'll study them and pick them up. For example, if I knew I was going to move to Japan next week, I'd pick up a phrase book for living in Japan (banking, office etiquette, shopping, insurance, etc). However, right now, none of that applies to me - why would I want to learn vocabulary that doesn't apply to me? Better to use content you enjoy instead of something you don't necessarily need.
@Limemill3 жыл бұрын
@@fangornthewise I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding here. First off, when you live abroad you may or may not immerse (I think we all know plenty of people who have lived abroad for years but barely speak the language), but this is not the point. But even when you do actively immerse, your whole process is reversed as compared to what Refold and similar methods suggest: in many situations you *need* to actively memorize large chunks of vocabulary thematically (not from any content you've immersed in). Here, you have to make an active effort and gather everything you need in one place by looking up stuff in topic-structured dictionaries with context or similar resources, then activate it immediately in conversation and THEN you will acquire it as a result of this exercise and solidify this knowledge through passive immersion later where (maybe) you'll some day meet these words in different contexts. This is pretty much in the exact opposite order of how you'd normally immerse (passive - and maybe a bit of active - content consumption; mining *some* sentences; getting exposed to the same words and expressions in other contexts; finally, starting to use them in oral communication).
@Limemill3 жыл бұрын
@@Eric-le3uu Very simple example: in Brazil, my shower gets broken. Now, I have to navigate several situations. Situation 1: talking to the neighbour downstairs about an expected flooding of her apartment. For that I need to know words like "flooding", "seep through", "emergency", specific parts of the bathroom to be able to pinpoint where the water will trickle down from. Situation 2: I need to speak with my insurance company and now I need to figure out terms I don't even know in my mother tongue to make sure we arrive at a viable solution. Situation 3: I need to go to the hardware store where I need to explain to them what parts exactly are broken, for which I now need to know how to say "shower head", "joint", "insulation", "nut", "washer" and about a dozen other words. I also need to anticipate what will feature in the responses, so I need to look up a lot more than just that. And so on, and so forth. Nothing in my immersion until this point has prepared me for this, I now need to quickly research, prepare and memorize a list of 30-40 words and expressions that I will need to activate right away. I should be able to navigate all three of these conversations and I don't have a choice to wait for two years until in some show I like there will be a plumber and an insurance agent speaking in their professional lingo.
@dddaveism3 жыл бұрын
Been lagging on my anki reps, came back for some motivation, LET FUCKING GO!!
Atsu`s language learning method makes more sense . I found it efficient to learning grammar, words and pronounciation repeatedly and it definitely boosted my ability to understand Japanese music , anime...
@mikiohirata96273 жыл бұрын
What most important though is as Matt said it before that one needs to listen /hear before you can respond. You must understand first of all or you are going nowhere. Hearing Hearing Hearing !!!! then enunciate.
@kitsburrard55303 жыл бұрын
Great discussion. I’m more on the “Matt” side. No question that individual learning style is a huge factor. But as an ESL teacher I have witnessed so many learners unable to transfer knowledge to practice, I feel that the analytical approach can become an obstacle at times. Reading and listening widely I feel is the best vocabulary approach. If you encounter a word frequently you know it’s worth mastering. Most vocabulary books don’t adequately consider frequency. I often wonder at their choices of words and idioms. I’d be interested to hear Matt’s comments on getting input through reading vs listening. Aside from the script issue, I feel that reading in Japanese is less helpful for language building unless you have academic goals. I also liked the comments that you need to vary your approach depending on level and goals. Great work guys! Keep at it.
@Drew7913 жыл бұрын
You’re on another level. I sweat you so bad. Thank you for being such an inspiration for people like me who absolutely suck at learning a foreign language. I’ve been so scared of trying to speak another language because of bad experiences in high school, plus being introverted, but I love watching you and Oriental Pearl. You guys are so relatable and kind.
@jimbojimberson21333 жыл бұрын
"I sweat you so bad." I must be too old to understand. Does sweat in this context mean 'tryhard'?
@Drew7913 жыл бұрын
@@jimbojimberson2133 like I excessively admire his skill
Dear Atsu -- As an American-born college graduate who has taken multiple English courses.... I too feel like there is a language gap when I talk with Australians (and Irish / British / etc.) lol
@黒木真由-u9l3 жыл бұрын
Language Swap was really interesting! 英語を話せるようになる学習、英語でディベートできるようになる学習、英文学を研究する学習、英語で書かれた専門書をスムースな日本語に訳すための学習と目的はそれぞれあるので、どの英語学習法が一番効率的かを論議するとき、最終目的は一つだと決めない方が良いと思います。
@alexds84522 жыл бұрын
I think it's easy to tell who wins this debate based on their actual competency. The winner is clearly Matt! So his method is definitely the best, also if you watch both of these guys you'll find out that Matt's ideas are research based (applied linguistics), but Atsushi is just going off the anecdote of his personal experience!
@shortbtw3 жыл бұрын
I love how Atsueigo speaks Japanese, it sounds different, or is it just me? Anyways, great and interesting debate, keep it up :D
I've got a linguistics degree and 5 years experience teaching ESL. Funny thing is Matt, when you brought up your argument about the 'te' form, I wondered if that was the present perfect. I have no knowledge of Japanese. I looked it up and it turns out that 'te' is a participle used to form the present perfect. The reason I wondered that is because the rules and theories around the present perfect are famously complex and strange. I actually agree with you in this regard. It takes an awfully long time to teach all the theories & rules about the present perfect and it turns out to be a lot less productive than spending more time on speaking exercises like 'have you ever' and 'what have you been doing'. But this is exceptionally true for the present perfect. You could make a similar case for articles and sometimes participles in general, but that's starting to get into irregularity which is kind of a different issue. In any case, I think you could count on one hand the grammar points where I believe this is mostly the case. Most grammar points can be taught in a simple and systematic way and it speeds up the process. Let me finish by saying that if a non-native speaker masters the present perfect, I would argue that 99% of the time it would mostly be based on intuition. Even people who have formally studied linguistics might not be familiar with some of the theories surrounding the present perfect. They would have to study tense and aspect specifically and read some of the articles that are out there.
@puccarts3 жыл бұрын
Yo Matt! Just letting you know, the link to Atsu's channel is the wrong link/broken in the description! Also, big thanks to you and Atsu for this conversation! This was an awesome video; really insightful!!
This was actually so well articulated by both sides - I can't believe it but I've finally found someone who understands the thought process that I go through naturally; for example when matt was talking about understanding the intuitive interpretation of what's going on and figuring out, noticing patterns from MULTIPLE inputs. That's how I USUALLY learn, but to be honest, I've been adding in Atsu's method (before even knowing about it) and WITH understanding the rules, I can integrate both and it helps so much more that way! I think incorporating both is very beneficial and can be much more efficient, especially because the intuitive perspective is a lot tougher for most people than doing the foundational grammatical analysis method.
@taki58493 жыл бұрын
An English' learner from Japan, also big on the guest renowned for his utilitarian books. I restarted studying English two years ago when I was approx 20 and I absolutely am on board with the Matt's idea that listening and reading, a so-called input method really serves better for language learners. For instance, the end of the sound of plural nouns and verbs conjugated to past form has a particular linguistic rule that I learned in university. I originally knew the existence of the formula but didn't delve into that cuz of my work-shy nature haha. Through listening and reading while verbalizing, however, I intuitively picked up how words are pronounced and work in sentences, which Im guessing is what Matt san also followed and how he picked up how Japanese verbs are conjugated, as in his aforementioned "te-form". With that being said, equally important is keeping inputting words using vocab books, especially English because English native speakers have an unintentional tendency to paraphrase words. For example, confused, stumped, puzzled, incoherent, upset, panicking, in a panic, or whatever shows your confusion are interchangeable in most cases but we Japanese mostly tend to say '困る", "混乱する', sometimes other possible words, explaining that fewer words are required in daily conversations, hence the need for more input of English words. Oh yes. The yawning gap between their frequencies is one of the cul-de-sacs that discourages us. From the Japanese perspective, we feel like English speakers perform tongue twister, speaking like mad (though they don't obviously or it might depend on where they are), which encourages us to watch the same episode until understanding its bits and pieces. I think it's good for newbies but when you reach a certain level, it's even less efficient than watching new episodes. Anyways, there is no one-size-fits-all method that can apply to every language learner so that we need to try to figure out and persist with the one that pans out for you. I still stink at speaking and there is a long way to go to be an articulate English speaker, but most importantly indulging in the process of learning languages is a successful key to that, I adamantly believe.
@katelutine70163 жыл бұрын
How on earth do you speak English like that after studying for 2 years, as a language student myself I feel ashamed of my own level
@taki58493 жыл бұрын
@@katelutine7016 As I mentioned, I 'restarted' it two years ago. Every Japanese has learned English since they were in junior high but we rarely, if ever, practice speaking and writing. So, I completed the fundamentals until I became 18 but I was unable to speak English whatsoever. And after the miraculous encounter with my Indonesian friend, I kicked off my studies and texting her for practice almost every single day - I was very slow with replies, though haha. One year after that, I noticed that words came out of my head soon enough but i was lacking in vocabulary ( at that time I had around 7,000 words or so) so I bought a vocab book and have expand it by another 7,000 words and phrases till now. You know what, since I focused on reading example sentences and some books, I picked up native-ish pronunciation and a relatively sophisticated writing style but suck at speaking ne. (TT) Just in: now almost three years of studying English!!
@bobboberson82973 жыл бұрын
I think it's the same for english speakers learning japanese. Japanese has a very high rate of syllables spoken per second, so it feels really fast, and it feels like there's an insurmountable wall of onomatopoeia and 2 kanji compound words to learn.
@taki58493 жыл бұрын
@@bobboberson8297 oh yeah! Onomatopeia is something challenging to pick up to boot since some coin new ones confuse us haha😂
@mathenglab1446 ай бұрын
2人の話を聞いてて、日本語と英語の難しい部分の違いがアプローチの違いになってるように感じました。(Here is the English text below.) 英語は文法が比較的簡単で発音が難しいので、日本人は英語をかなり読めるのにリスニングもスピーキングもかなり苦手。 日本語は発音が簡単だけれど文法がかなり難しいし、文字が複雑だから、文法やリーディングよりもリスニングから始める方が簡単なのかも知れない。 Listening to both of you, I felt that the difference between the challenging aspects of Japanese and English lies in their approach. English has relatively simple grammar but difficult pronunciation, so Japanese people can read English fairly well but struggle with listening and speaking. On the other hand, Japanese has easy pronunciation and quite challenging grammar and characters, so starting with listening might be easier than focusing on grammar and reading.
@johnvienna34223 жыл бұрын
No debate necessary, really, as of course both these great guys are right. Each year, I have the pleasure of interviewing school pupils (aged 16-18) in a speech contest. These kids have all learned English through the school system and their own study. That is, they haven’t learned from their environment (we’re in a German-speaking country), or from parents, nannies, long periods in the U.K., U.S. etc. Just school and their own initiative. The best students are essentially native-speaker level - very impressive. So, I’ve noticed they all share three things: formal, structured study; constant exposure to the language (many times a day, every day); and a passion for something that they can only access through their target language. That will often be TV, gaming, online novels, or some specialist interest for which they need English to go deep. Long story short: structured study as a foundation, which then gives you access to the rich language and culture of the places and people you’re interested in - then you can really fly.
@benw-l7k3 жыл бұрын
Speech contests mean next to nothing to determine whether second language learners are near native level or not, most speech contests participants will write a script and keep interating over it to make it better and better with the help of a native speaker or near native speaker, then after its perfect will rehearse over and over till they've got it down perfectly. Also, being in a german-speaking country doesnt matter, these kids probably spent a lot of time watching english shows or watching english youtube; watching english youtube is incredible common for kids all around the world, whenever language learning is mentioned on the internet theres always a handfull of anecdotes about how non-native english speakers didn't even realise they were learning english and that it just sort of happened through youtube and all of this youtube consumption is apart of their environment.
@johnvienna34223 жыл бұрын
@@benw-l7k No, in this case the kids are given a topic, and they have ten minutes to prepare a five-minute speech, alone. They're also interviewed, before an audience, on a theme they don't know about in advance. So they have zero time to prepare for that. Like I said, it's impressive. As for KZbin, that's Matt's point - you can become good through immersion without actually being in an environment (e.g. country, family) where that language is spoken.
Some thoughts. My instincts align with Atsu's in that I want things "on the dot". FOMO. However, I agree that learning to tolerate the ambiguity and going with the flow is definitely more efficient. While definitely uncomfortable in a way, it's also pleasant once I "zone in". I think there is value in both approaches, though. I don't know what the right mix is, but, for the sake of argument, say you spend 70-90 percent on your allocated time listening (and maybe reading with target language subtitles) in real time and the the remaining 10-30 percent reading while looking up every word and concept until you understand. Or at least a majority of the time. Like Matt said, I think there are things simply out of reach and that there's no choice but to come back later.
@dycedargselderbrother53533 жыл бұрын
@@haroombe123 Cure Dolly has a similar take. The example used is you can read all sorts of books about swimming, different strokes and whatnot, but you won't really know anything about it until you finally jump into the water and realize the books left a lot out.
@gamedev16773 жыл бұрын
anyone know where Matt is? Its just strange that He hasn't uploaded in 3 months now.