I love the open discussion. It’s just like in grad school when my classmates and I would debate each other in class and go out for shakes afterwards. Love your channel Matt. I agree with you.... 90% 😆
@simongrass12503 жыл бұрын
In what language chinese school did you study?! 😊
@OrientalPearl3 жыл бұрын
@@simongrass1250 I went to a school in Harbin across from the university 哈工大, the language school was called 滨才 (Bincai). It was very cheap and great quality. None of my classmates were English speakers, so we had to use Chinese only to communicate.
@shirobuta_3 жыл бұрын
Can you estimate how much money you've spent so far on schools / tutors etc in your Chinese and Japanese language learning paths?
@OrientalPearl3 жыл бұрын
@@shirobuta_ Yes, and it’s going to be a bit shocking. It was more than $15,000 for 8 years of Chinese and another $10,000 for 5 years of Japanese. BUT this amount includes my grad school tuition for both Fudan and Waseda University. So I got a degree out of it too. I’ve already gotten all that money back and much more from using the languages. It was an investment.
@1982spqr3 жыл бұрын
More content like this please 🙏
@gregai84563 жыл бұрын
The biggest problem about advocating for classes vs self study is anyone is able to watch native material in their target language with KZbin or a Netflix subscription, but not all of us are able to fly to that country, pay for 4 hour intensive classes, while busy studying for high school, college, or working.
@iamdatte3 жыл бұрын
don't forget the private tutor! lol yeah I wish I could afford a private tutor to add to my personal studies and get corrected on my writing or speaking abilities but that's pretty expensive
@user-sw5pw3cs4w3 жыл бұрын
It's all a cash grab. If the world truly understood and accepted the input hypothesis, it would be a financial disaster; trillions of dollars lost in language learning.
@babygorl95413 жыл бұрын
@@user-sw5pw3cs4w very true. even the "correcting" stuff mostly takes care of itself by just getting enough input. in fact you don't even make most of those mistakes in the first place.
@yoshiegg65373 жыл бұрын
I also find that the smart people look for testimonials and quickly notice that there are barely any good Japanese speaking foreigners from traditional classes while immersion based learning has a ton of high level people.
@Aditya-te7oo3 жыл бұрын
@@user-sw5pw3cs4w That's the truth.
@realjayjobes18493 жыл бұрын
Love people that're able to disagree without seeing that as a personal attack.
@azhivago22963 жыл бұрын
Seems to be a rare skill today my friend!
@RonaldMcPaul3 жыл бұрын
What's happening?! At the slightest disagreement people are supposed to call each racist.
@Aditya-te7oo3 жыл бұрын
@@RonaldMcPaul 😁😁😂😂
@jonathanfranco85473 жыл бұрын
Wholesome
@user-bn8ie5zt9x3 жыл бұрын
Well, you could see some knives flying on the air at some point... But hey, no blood at least
@Conversationswithtony3 жыл бұрын
I went to an Italian Language immersion school in southern Italy and saw myself and others rapidly learn Italian. I had a small foundation of Italian before arriving but my roommate and many others had 0 Italian background. I watched my roommate go from 0 to be able to have conversations in the street with strangers in only 2 months. We did Italian lessons for 5 hours a day, 4 days a week and no English was ever used in the class. Even the text book was written entirely in Italian. Sounds crazy to some but it works extremely well.
@Bayo1063 жыл бұрын
it only worked because you were in Italy. doesnt work as fast or as well if you're not forced to speak and listen and read the language
@SmallSpoonBrigade3 жыл бұрын
@@Bayo106 Yes. I made a huge amount of progress with my Mandarin in China until I hit the point where I knew the language necessary to meet my needs at which point it got to be harder and harder to make progress as I wasn't being forced to do so. Plus, because I was in China, everything I did took a ton of time. If I had it all to do over again, I'd probably hire one of the locals to go out with me and make me try to use the language. Which wasn't at the time hard to arrange, paying for drinks and meals or doing language exchanges would likely have been enough. I just hadn't though of doing so. To this day, my Mandarin skills for buying things are quite good, even though the skills I have for making friends are basically non-existent. It was a large gap and I didn't have the time or energy to figure out how to get past it. IMHO, the three main advantages to immersion are being forced to use the language, being able to soak it up constantly and being forced to develop creativity with how you use the language. The second is typically the easiest to manage without anybody's help.
@lyingcat90222 жыл бұрын
Sounds expensive :(
@muttlanguages39123 жыл бұрын
If fluent is speaking without any stops, I'm not even fluent in my native language! Shoot.
@LangJourney3 жыл бұрын
Same
@jeffersonfernandes75733 жыл бұрын
lol of course you are. don't exaggerate.
@user-tp5vv3kg7h3 жыл бұрын
Same here. I stop less often in English than in my native language.
@desnerger63463 жыл бұрын
Me too. "Speak fluently" doesn't always mean "speak fluidly". One possible explanation why I'm not very fluid in my own native language, would be that the overwhelming majority of my communication went (and still goes) in written form and that I have a lower-than-average tolerance for preciseness of thought expression, objective correctness, choice of words and so on. So when trying to meet my standards speaking more-or-less original thoughts in realtime, the pauses become inevitable.
@DrReginaldFinleySr3 жыл бұрын
Ha! Exactly. I have 5 degrees and I am currently a Biology Professor. There are still thousands of words I don't know. I'm leaning towards Matt's theory about listening. I sing and have a good ear so I am able to emulate tones pretty easily. However, not everyone has that ability, I would think some languages would give some people much more problems than others due to their tone-deafness. lol
@vincentsheerin94323 жыл бұрын
Theres more than one way to make an omelette but one of them's always gonna taste the best
@raykings52443 жыл бұрын
I don't know about always but I get what you mean.
@Retog3 жыл бұрын
And some ways don’t make an omelette, they make an uncooked apple pie
@gabrielalbert61183 жыл бұрын
I would argue that there's definitely wrong ways of making omelettes, for example if you put coal on it, i'm sure there won't be a single person that is going to find it delicious, but i don't think there's a right way either. Some people like it spicy, others prefer it kind of salty, ones want it very fried, and so on and so forth, therefore it all comes down to what your tastes are.
@tetradrive15693 жыл бұрын
Well at the same time, one person may like their omelette one way and someone else another. Taste is subjective in the same way that we all learn differently.
@raenastra3 жыл бұрын
Sounds like the biggest difference in their opinions comes from Matt studying without living in the country and Anming studying while living in the country. It's great to hear both perspectives!
@k.54253 жыл бұрын
Yh, I think staying in the country in the right environment will force you to use the language so you can't be like "yh, I can't start outputting yet". Like you can't not.
@DengueBurger3 жыл бұрын
@@k.5425 Matt was in japan for 6 months. He has 3 hour long video about his Japanese journey, I recommend watching it on 2x speed, it’s pretty entertaining
@afonsomendes69073 жыл бұрын
Imo they disagree on pretty much everything 😂 their whole approach and philosophy towards language learning is completely different, being in the country or not is honestly quite irrelevant to their views
@yoshiegg65373 жыл бұрын
I agree because she's forced to output early and her staying home watching anime wouldn't make sense in her living situation.
@k.54253 жыл бұрын
@@DengueBurger yh, I haven't watched his 3 hour video but I've heard him mentions it so many times. When he's usually giving an intro in like interviews or something. I might eventually watch it. Or maybe not. Because I've watched so many of his videos, I know a lot already and it's probably stuff he's mentioned in the 3 hour video.
@daysandwords3 жыл бұрын
I like Oriental Pearl but having felt the same way as her about 14-18 months ago, and now feeling different, I think that she draws weird conclusions from what she sees. e.g. "It's going to slow your pronunciation down quite a lot to not speak in the first 6 months..." Well, if it's going to take your 3-5 years, no. If you're trying to produce Italian when you already speak fluent Spanish, maybe. But otherwise it's the equivalent to spending one hour fitting a turbo charger to a car that's going to drive a 24 hour race. It is a "waste" of the first hour, but you'll overtake the cars that jumped off the line straight away with no turbo.
@MidosujiSen3 жыл бұрын
Well said mate
@user-lw3ri8us4w3 жыл бұрын
oooh nice metaphor!
@jonathancross30973 жыл бұрын
@@user-lw3ri8us4w Lamont is the best creator of metaphors on KZbin I swear
@thebrokenmystic8793 жыл бұрын
Good analogy!
@gansogames49273 жыл бұрын
My take is that she describes what is probably the fastest way to learn a language, whereas Matt describes the easiest way to effectively learn a language.
@justincain27023 жыл бұрын
I think language schools are impractical for most people because they are expensive and pretty inflexible to an individuals circumstances, but also useless if you already know what you are doing when it comes to language learning. The only advantage I can see is commiting that much money and effort, plus having your teachers and peers eyes on you would probably be a pretty big motivator.
@OgichiGame Жыл бұрын
There is also what Steve Kaufmann said, "What's the rush"? There is nothing wrong with taking longer to learn a language. Not everyone is able to learn at such a high speed and intensity.
@mattvsjapan3 жыл бұрын
Check out the video we did on the Oriental Pearl Channel! kzbin.info/www/bejne/hpO0lqWBlt2mb9U
@DengueBurger3 жыл бұрын
Circa 20:36 Matt’s face of disappointment at Oriental Pearl saying “JLPT N1 is beyond fluent”
@user-sw5pw3cs4w3 жыл бұрын
@@DengueBurger "Youre way beyond fluency at N1" bruh...
@yoshi317133 жыл бұрын
Love your channel, Matt! I'm a native Japanese, but I grew up in Europe, and besides Japanese, I'm fluent in English and German, and I'm on my way to becoming fluent in Russian. I only recently discovered your channel but looking back I realize that what I've been doing all my life is just these 2 things you're always going on about: immersion and learning vocabulary/phrases. You only need to focus and give 100% on these two things and you'll eventually become fluent, and that's the only ticket, pretty much! Everything else (like learning grammar) is extra. And I started over 20 years ago, when I was in my teens.... Cheers and all the best!
@edwards27283 жыл бұрын
Damn, you Matt. Always making me drop my immersion for your content haha
@Marlfox5703 жыл бұрын
Haha glad I'm not the only one thinking this. He needs more japanese content to keep it going 😂
@The235Anil3 жыл бұрын
So true.
@Gavf19183 жыл бұрын
I'm glad that my target language is English haha
@vladinstein3 жыл бұрын
@@Gavf1918 Same here.
@Snugboy3 жыл бұрын
Literally what i was thinking
@furretar64843 жыл бұрын
I'd rather spend 6 hours watching TV shows than spend it traditionally studying, let alone paying for the classes
@babygorl95413 жыл бұрын
@Joshua Carrillo have you ever heard of a dictionary
@babygorl95413 жыл бұрын
@Joshua Carrillo you realize dictionaries have multiple entries, right....?
@user-sw5pw3cs4w3 жыл бұрын
@Joshua Carrillo You realize learning a word with the bilingual definition gives a very vague meaning with missing nuance? You realize you can learn words without having to look them up via comprehensible input? That you have to listen a lot in order for your brain to properly parse the phonemes and sounds of the language? And you realize monolingual dictionaries exist? You're probably extremely low level in your TL if it takes 10 episodes for an hour of active study, and everyone has to go through that but once you've listened to enough gibberish for a couple hundred hours the sounds will be parsed and words will pop out and make sense in context after hearing them so many times.
@brendon24623 жыл бұрын
@Joshua Carrillo What about german? I pickup words while watching tv and using an online dictionary. It gives you several examples in context. I learn words from tv through visual context. For example what's happening, body language, expression, how something is said. All these things help you to infer. I picked up the word weiter through just inferring based on context of the show. Then looked up the word and realized I was correct on the meaning. Simply because the context was comprehensive input. That was through watching one episode once. If you watch a german cooking show. The chef picks up a potato and says kartoffel. Then you just learned the word for potato through comprehensive input. If two people are running a track. One person is trying to spur their friend on. To keep going and finish saying weiter weiter weiter! Then you can infer it means something along the lines of more, further, keep going. That is another example of comprehensible input. Most words I've aquired through inference of context.
@kezako67833 жыл бұрын
Well I tried watching TV shows in target from the start ( almost ). I was bored to death. So I quickly phased out, making the all thing pointless. Studying from textbooks, as imperfect as it is, gives you a structure and a sense of progression. You can still come back to immersion once you understand 60-70% of what is being said. Plus MIA is designed by and for the unemployed who can afford spending most their days in front of TV shows. If MIA suits your needs and gives you the results you want, I am glad. But when it's sold as the universal best language learning method ever, I take issue. I get better results from a textbook at the beginning, and it's actually more fun for me that way, and less frustrating.
@isabel83523 жыл бұрын
Awesome video Matt! I love how well spoken you are, it's really engaging and pleasant to listen to. Also, the way you're able to disagree with someone without making it seem like you're above them is just an amazing skill that more people should know. This friendly debate between you and Anming was just amazing and I'm so happy that you've bee able to upload more videos again.
@TkyoSam3 жыл бұрын
The more I keep seeing my hot sons out there doing their own thing makes me proud as an online KZbin dad. Both of you are being able to have a debate and disagree without taking it personally. Wish the internet showcased more people like this vs the later. Good job you two! Papa is 大変プラウドだ!!!
@5IRAHHHP3 жыл бұрын
kono energy desuuuuuu
@OrientalPearl3 жыл бұрын
Thanks Dad!
@DengueBurger3 жыл бұрын
I think the difference is: language learning classes in the country where you’re with other adults who want to be good vs language learning classes in high school and even college where it goes slow and half the class doesn’t care too much.
@k.54253 жыл бұрын
Yh, because in primary to high school french was compulsory abd we did roughly 9 years of French and none of us can boast of being fluent. So, because it was compulsory, we didn't care much, it was more like any other subject "oh, we just need to take this class" Whereas in university, I've made a lot of progress in Spanish within the year because I actually want to learn the language
@afonsomendes69073 жыл бұрын
The thing is language classes, regardles of location, are taught by adult native speakers, who most likely never learned a second language to near native. The class philosophy is basically:" ok im a native and i habe this huge mass of language in my head. So if i wanna teach them, i just tell them all about the words and grammar. If they cram it enough theyll speak like me" its completely backwards, it ignores that this is not how humans acquire languages AT ALL. matts method actually takes this into account and instead proscribes thousands of ours of immersion as the number one ingredient. Without that ingredient you will never be native like no matter what you do.
@afonsomendes69073 жыл бұрын
@@sklanguage589 Yeah, it's the worlds most common story xD worse is, when the problem continues in language schools, where people pay up the a** and get nothing from it.
@jonathancross30973 жыл бұрын
And high school classes literally only care about grammar tests and memorising vocabulary lists, no context at ALL. It’s like they’re designed specifically to not teach you the language lol
@JapanWalkerJJ3 жыл бұрын
I'm not just impressed by Matt's japanese but also his English. The way he speaks and expresses himself and his choice of words are all perfect and not even a single stutter. Not only do I wish to be as good as him in japanese but also in English. I feel like no matter how much I input in English I'll always stutter and use the wrong word here and there. edit: ALSO STAR LIGHT. YEAH YOU WITH THE MITSUHA PIC. I SEE YOU EVERYWHERE AND I KNOW YOU'RE READING THIS COMMENT.
@mattvsjapan3 жыл бұрын
haha actually I stutter quite a bit if you listen carefully. Also, the worst stutters have been edited out.
@Aditya-te7oo3 жыл бұрын
@@mattvsjapan After reading the last line - Me - 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
@richwilliams23013 жыл бұрын
I think languages reinforce each other. My english ability has increased from studying japanese.
@AlexG-bc7ji3 жыл бұрын
I'm of the view that the input hypothesis is fundamentally correct and that only input-based approaches will really get you far in language acquisition. That said, if you want to actually speak a language *well*, and speak it in an articulate and eloquent way, then you do need to practice speaking (this won't impact your language comprehension or understanding, of course, because that's all input). But this is true of our native languages as well; almost all people who speak very well such as motivational/public speakers, actors, debaters, etc. have gone through significant output practice. And Matt has gotten much more comfortable and articulate even in English as he's put out more videos over time.
@user-sw5pw3cs4w3 жыл бұрын
Watch any uncut interviews with Matt and you'll see he stutters a lot, like the KoreKara podcast.
@NoRefund173 жыл бұрын
The thing is though, all of her ways to combat the negative effects of her method, require a HUGE amount of resources that many people don't have. Not everyone can afford a class that has a teacher that knows what their doing with a classroom size of 5.
@SalmonSalmonfish3 жыл бұрын
I agree. Matt's ideas are so much more accessable to anyone who has the motivation to learn
@Aditya-te7oo3 жыл бұрын
@@haroombe123 Completely agree with the last line. Btw, are you Indian ?
@Aditya-te7oo3 жыл бұрын
@@haroombe123 Ohhh. What language you are learning ?
@Aditya-te7oo3 жыл бұрын
@@haroombe123 Okay.
@lastninjaitachi3 жыл бұрын
Yah she said she had 2 hours of class plus a tutor. Most of us don't have that time.
@BrandonMwells3 жыл бұрын
日本語の森 kinda takes a similar approach, where you learn the language in the language, additionally her way of learning is heavily gated to the privilaged and wealthy. Not everyone has money to go to a country, enroll into multiple language schools.
@Wilpsn3 жыл бұрын
Yeah, that method is not scalable at all. But it's not necessarily wealthy because some countries have free universities that have exchange programs with other countries. But it's definitely privileged, I think internet access in the world is much bigger than access to college.
@justincain27023 жыл бұрын
@@Wilpsn well she also said she didn't like university classes. She advocates for language schools with very small class sizes, which are pretty expensive most of the time.
@malikbooker91873 жыл бұрын
@@justincain2702 get a job
@Peraliq3 жыл бұрын
@@malikbooker9187 do you think jobs is all what it takes to pay off shit? My tuition in school is 15k a semester do you think a 9/5 is enough to sustain me? use common sense for once please. And before you rebuttal with doing multiple jobs use common sense on why that would be counter productive for your time spent learning.
@heathersaxton81183 жыл бұрын
On Stephen Crashen and comprehensible input: I have never interpreted his work as discouraging the acquirer from speaking at an early stage but simply that the acquirer should not be pressured to speak before they are ready. This ties together with foreign language anxiety and the affective filter which is a huge part of the comprehensible input theory. If you’re feeling stressed or anxious in the classroom or situation you’re in your ability to acquire the input will be limited, according to the theory. But if you enjoy talking and feel ready to try I don’t recall krashen ever having spoken against it. Problem with a lot of foreign language classrooms is that students are often pressured to speak when they are in fact not ready yet, causing them a less optimal environment for acquisition. I personally enjoy talking to people from a pretty early stage and learning that way comes much more naturally to me than binge watching a bunch of media content. And let’s not forget that conversations provide comprehensible input all the same as listening and reading materials :)
@BrendanishLeo3 жыл бұрын
I'm going through his book on his Taiwan speeches atm, Krashen isn't opposed to early output, and in fact sees the positives. I think the key point people may mistake is Krashen claims output doesn't *improve* anything. However it's heavily related to his "affective filter hypothesis"/or Chomsky's "language acquisition device", which is essentially our perception that we're part of the "group" (language speakers) which can accel growth, and you'll receive more input through speaking (hopefully to people who are native/properly fluent)
@rimenahi3 жыл бұрын
Matt... You're a mad genius. I love your ideas. They even did change me as a person. Thank you.
@RafaelCDinardi3 жыл бұрын
Me too, my concept of learning changed a lot since I started following Matt ideas
@kougamishinya65663 жыл бұрын
Dude your name is spilling off my screen
@alanguages3 жыл бұрын
Oriental Pearl: "There's more than one way to make an omelette." A timeless phrase: "One can't make an omelette without breaking eggs." They both add up.
@plinkage3 жыл бұрын
on the topic of fluency, i feel i agree that its a loaded word and only means what you want it to mean for you. im a native english speaker and ive read books where i could read an entire page and not understand 75% of whats being said. i feel fluency is less about the amount of knowledge ive acquired and more about the amount of thinking i have to do in order to output that knowledge. for instance i could explain computers to someone for hours without having to stop and make sure im remembering correctly. but if i started talking about biology of the animal kingdom, i would struggle to find anything to say that i feel i know as fact without looking it up and digesting the information and then translating it into something that makes sense to me.
@ichbinhier3553 жыл бұрын
I agree with you, we actually don't get fluent in a language but in topics, for example in my native language (Spanish) there are many things that are hard to me to talk about, like technology, but somehow I feel confident talking about that topic in English lol
@fancywrong64053 жыл бұрын
"Getting pretty good at Japanese as well" Low key burn
@The13thDoct0r3 жыл бұрын
Matt: follow a free guide involving watching language content frequently and you can get fluent Oriental Pearl: go to an expensive, 20 hour per week language school, get a private tutor in addition, live in the country, and study in your free time, and you can get fluent
@samuelx54663 жыл бұрын
And then your sentences will be weird and pronunciation will still be really bad
@Limemill3 жыл бұрын
It really depends. I went for a year to Brazil. My former employer hired me as a remote contractor, and I realized I was making more money this way than when I had worked from the office full-time. I also had enough spare time on my hands to follow a similar intensive curriculum and because I was not in Rio or Sao Paulo, the instruction was dirt cheap, but really high quality. No one spoke English, so I was forced to use Portuguese for everything from day 1. Finally, the people there were very open, engaging and talkative so you could not avoid random conversations even if you wanted to. As a result, one month in I was taken for a Portuguese. In six months I reached the upper-intermediate / advanced level at the school (university, really) I studied at and was routinely perceived as a local outside its doors. My journey was almost the opposite of what many people here preach: I first polished my pronunciation to remove any obstacles to production and then, in addition to school, actively learned situational chunks of vocab, for example before going to a barbershop or a hardware store, and activated it right in the process. That vocab stayed with me forever, even without SRS which I didn't use at the time. It's important to say that the culture itself was very conducive to a lot of input. As I said, it was impossible not to engage in conversations in lineups, elevators and simply in the street. And originally all I could do was nod and produce sounds demonstrating my interest and encouragement to continue. In that scenario, I don't see how or why you would not output from the get-go. You don't perpetuate any errors, because on the one hand you're corrected in classes and on the other you're always bombarded with real-life input that keeps you improving all the time. Unless you have very little self-awareness, you will rapidly improve without making any output errors permanent due to this rapid feedback loop
@Jlukecampos3 жыл бұрын
I'm genuinely curious how oriental pearl could parse out whether it was her classes or all the other supplements that were the core thing that is important for language acquisition. Like, which are the core components.
@Limemill3 жыл бұрын
@@Jlukecampos well, that's the true point here: no ones JUST learns or JUST acquires a language. That dichotomy put forward by Stephen Krashen is a bit misleading. You can first learn something consciously, such as a grammatical rule, and then internalize it as an intuitive structure after producing a bunch of examples and being exposed to input containing this structure. Likewise, you can first be exposed to a structure through input, kind of get the hang of it and then learn the rule that explains it. No one just learns something consciously and is then bound to always perform the same conscious manipulations to arrive at an utterance. You eventually acquire what you learn and you learn what you acquire. Hence, you can really approach it from both ends
@Nadia-nt8gb3 жыл бұрын
@@samuelx5466 lol which one? matt by far has a better accent (in japanese) yet oriental lives in the country and has a formal language education.
@GustavoHenrique-dp7so3 жыл бұрын
My experience with English was pretty similar to Matt's with japanese, although it had some differences: I've never studied english, but I've been exposing myself to it since I was 10 or less, because I always liked to watch things in their original language. In the beginning of this year, I decided to really try hard on English, and started using some methods to kick off my speaking, and I noticed that at I knew fairly well what to say, but I couldn't say it properly and in the speed I wanted to. Then after some weeks of practicing, I noticed I had improved A LOT in pronunciation, speed and even in speaking in a more natural way. Most of the knowledge was already there, I only had to learn how to use it.
@LucasAraujo-fm8lu3 жыл бұрын
Not only do I have the exact same background as you, but I'm now facing the same challenge also. What has been your approach to bettering your speach and pronunciation?
@GustavoHenrique-dp7so3 жыл бұрын
@@LucasAraujo-fm8lu I started by reading texts out loud, then I downloaded some language exchange apps to talk to native people. Sometimes I'd even "think loud" in english haha.
@azriel94993 жыл бұрын
Yeah. . . I'm with Matt. Speaking early and corrections didn't help me out the first time around (Even in a small class with a great teacher). It took lots of input (specifically audio input) to course correct and reach a solid intermediate level. I just keep thinking of that Stephen Krashen video where he speaks in german, while drawing pictures, and I understand every single thing he said. And I don't know a lick of german. So, I'm going with Matt's (or Stephen Krashen's) methods this time.
@lixellow3 жыл бұрын
i also agree with the point about inputs but i wonder how to go from that to actually using the language. I consider myself to understand the language i’m learning to around 80%, in speech and writing however I can’t seem to get myself to speak or writing it confidently...
@user-qi9kt6us6u3 жыл бұрын
Great discussion and it's nice to see both of you being so cordial! I am sure her intentions were good and she was trying to use it in good faith, but the "there's more than one way to make an omelette" argument is an example of why analogies/metaphors used incorrectly in a discussion can be so deceptive as she never felt the need to explain exactly why that is the case - just because you can conjure up a metaphor that serves to describe your point doesn't actually make your point. Analogies/metaphors are used for explanatory purposes, not proofs. Again, she definitely seemed to have pure intentions and she could very well have a good explanation for why she believes her metaphor to accurately reflect the reality of language acquisition, but a bald metaphor doesn't go a long way in accomplishing that. I also think Matt's point of her having reached a high level of fluency in spite of early output could have been expanded upon. Given the complete absence of an internal "natural pronunciation/speech detector" before you have heard thousands of hours listening to natively spoken language, imagining all of the ways there are to get structure/pronunciation/word appropriateness wrong boggles the mind, and imagining any teacher or tutor, regardless of their patience level, being able to properly correct every single nuance that indicates non-native speech is completely unreasonable. You therefore are bound to end up with mistakes that simply weren't filtered out and, to Matt's point, you will only rid yourself of those mistakes insofar as you are able to subsequently develop an internal sense of how the language should sound via input - in which case why not just develop that innate sense of correctness beforehand and avoid this issue altogether? Anyway, great discussion and you have to be impressed with her ability to tackle Chinese and then still have the motivation to do it all over again with Japanese. I can definitely see her point of comradery in a classroom setting enabling this sustained level of motivation. It definitely seems to be the case that a big portion of what makes a method the "best" is whether it keeps you motivated long enough to actually get enough exposure in the language, and I think she made that point very well!
@user-cw3hl8kw1d3 жыл бұрын
neither is "right" or "wrong". there is no "perfect" or "best" method that works for everyone. each person learns best with the methods that are right for them.
@GustavoHenrique-dp7so3 жыл бұрын
"That bad input" that's a good definition, and I think this bad input can make a lot harm on your knowledge in the target language on the long term. I'm from Brazil, and here most English classes in school are 100% grammar and 100% useless, not only because of the content, but also the teachers, who are never fluent, and some of them can't even reach a basic level, which is the case of my english teacher: she speaks English so bad that I always feel stuck when I try to speak English on the same day of her class.
@whiteninjaplus53 жыл бұрын
Language classes are good except all the bad ones.
@s.larson56323 жыл бұрын
Some of the bad ones are the best.
@SmallSpoonBrigade3 жыл бұрын
I think it's got more to do with what you expect out of the class and how you're working it into your effort. I've had lousy ones and great ones, and I think the main difference was me. In most cases, there wasn't really anything different other than my attitude towards. The main exception was Mandarin, where both schools I dealt with seemed to think that finishing the book was the goal, whether or not I actually learned anything from it. Classes can be a great way of building up a basic framework of how the language works and getting practice with basic competency.
@whiteninjaplus53 жыл бұрын
Didn't Matt's ability after five years include being able to read classical Japanese and have a larger passive vocabulary than people his age?
@furretar64843 жыл бұрын
I think he's basing 5 years off of his extremely high level, but she's basing it off of basic fluency
@MrMickeei3 жыл бұрын
@@furretar6484 Yeah, discounting pitch accent, Matt's level after five years was incredibly high. Not sure how good she was after five years but I have heard her speak and imo she is far from being as good as Matt in speaking at least, and I am betting her reading and listening fluency is also far from Matt's. Not saying she isn't good for a foreigner, but I guess her goals aren't set as high as Matt's either.
@StrikeA1G3 жыл бұрын
@@MrMickeei yeah, matt hit fluency after 3 years but the level he's at now after 5
@SmallSpoonBrigade3 жыл бұрын
Essentially, the argument here is over how much pipe needs to be laid before really starting to express oneself in the language. I personally took a year of German classes at a local college, and then spent a bunch of time just listening to the radio. I've still got a long ways to go, but I'm at a point where I can generally understand radio and TV without too much trouble. I do miss a bunch, but I'm at a point where I'm learning vocabulary purely from context, the way that a native speaker would. But, I'm incredibly shy, so I've barely ever spoken to any native speakers. For introverts and people who have issues with anxiety, it might make more sense to start talking as soon as possible, but that's mainly because the longer you go without doing it, the more of a cliff you face when you do decide to start talking.
@eresoup7229Ай бұрын
@@MrMickeeishe sounds awful in japanese tbh
@barryallen455863 жыл бұрын
I can listen to Japanese all day, but reading 2 pages of Japanese book becomes really hard for me.
@derpydayha3 жыл бұрын
You'll get there with time. Watch shows with Japanese subs if you aren't already, it'll build you up to reading books. Just started my first Japanese light novel and it's challenging, but I'm making progress.
@elad58893 жыл бұрын
@@derpydayha and how you are dealing with unfamiliar kanji?
@hannahyalea3 жыл бұрын
Do you mean you can understand spoken Japanese pretty well? In that case, I wonder if it would help your reading comprehension to say the sentences out loud as you read! And I suppose an added bonus of that would be getting more familiar with the feeling of speaking Japanese yourself, as well.
@sehbanomer815110 ай бұрын
I totally agree with OrientalPearl on the importance of "correction". If there's no one who corrects your mistakes, mistakes will become permanent habbits. That's why I totally agree with Matt on the importance of input. Because no English teacher will follow you 24/7 and correct every single mistake that you make. That's why it's important to develop the ability to "sense" your own mistakes. That's what you get by lots of input, the intuitive feeling of "this doesn't sound right".
@ronkrupovich71523 жыл бұрын
I follow both of you and your abilities are exceptional--so, in a way, this shows that your approaches work for you and could work for others. Years ago, I took an intensive language course at a national defence language school here in Ottawa--and after a year, my speaking ability was very high. I was taught by a native speaker and worked on the language 7 days a week. I have learned several languages over the years--and my own takeaway is that a combination of up-front knowledge of language structure, vocabulary, and at least some grammar serves as a great foundation for immersion and accelerated learning. I've been trying Matt's approach to Japanese in the last year and a half--and I have to say that I've learned more about Japanese than I expected, although at this point, my speaking ability is not what I want it to be. I'm just starting to enter the active stage of my language journey. What I do find is that my speaking ability, while still stilted and sub par, is advancing very, very quickly because of all the listening and reading I've done. Certainly, this immersive approach has been more entertaining---listening to native speakers on television shows and in movies and modelling my sentences on the utterances of native speakers has been worthwhile and reassuring. Thanks so much to you both for your interesting discussion. I do think that a better definition of "fluent" is required. For me right now, I consider fluent something akin to being able to speak in a reasonably flowing manner on demand and on various topics--using language that is not too simple.
@caiosantos99863 жыл бұрын
I'm learning English and your videos are helping me a lot. thanks
@JapanWalkerJJ3 жыл бұрын
You seem to talk so well though, I wonder what it is that you feel like you need to improve on
@caiosantos99863 жыл бұрын
@@JapanWalkerJJ Well I guess that my vocabulary need to improvement. My speak it's not good because I don't have anyone to practicing.
@JapanWalkerJJ3 жыл бұрын
@@caiosantos9986 Ah okay now I see. I'll help you out a little bit. Well I guess my vocabulary needs some improvement* OR Well I guess my vocabulary needs to improve* (Improvement is a noun. Improve is a verb.) My speech is not good because I don't have anyone to practice with*
@caiosantos99863 жыл бұрын
@@JapanWalkerJJ Thank you very much for the correction👌
@Amanda-qe5lj3 жыл бұрын
Tá no caminho certo
@TheDubstepStudios3 жыл бұрын
because at the end of the day... there's more than one way to make an omelette
@deceaseda7x223 жыл бұрын
That’s why I chain my chef to the kitchen, Let’s see him try to get out of this one...
@yoshi317133 жыл бұрын
Is it just me, or was anybody else waiting for these two to start making an omelette already .... 😂
@ProvocativeSloth3 жыл бұрын
I'm too busy skinning cats to cook.
@lukidjano3 жыл бұрын
Take a shot every time she says omelette
@FourteenthAngel3 жыл бұрын
To be fair, omelette’s are delicious.
@Mateo-et3wl3 жыл бұрын
She must have been ovulating. Get it? 🤣
@Crashandburn9993 жыл бұрын
I feel hungover just reading this comment.
@CodeProvider3 жыл бұрын
I cant listen to all this egg talk
@fortheloveoftechno13513 жыл бұрын
This was a little painful to watch. Matt is obviously light years ahead of Oriental Pearl in his understanding of theory and methodology. The fact that she had no idea who Steven Krashen is said it all. She also kept saying "I don't have any bad habits in Chinese" over and over again but her Chinese pronunciation is mediocre. I'm also so over all these people who make videos about locals reacting to them speaking their language. "White Girl Speaks Chinese to Restaurant Owner!" All this stuff is stupid clickbait nonsense that offers no value aside from pumping the ego of the video maker and continuing to perpetuate how "exotic" asians are. Imagine an Asian person making a channel of street reactions of them speaking bad English and you'll realize how stupid this is. Kudos to Matt for making exceptional content about language learning methodology that is unrivaled.
@pandyj83 жыл бұрын
Yes so glad someone said this!
@ItsameAlex2 жыл бұрын
I disagree. Those videos are fun and inspire people.
@mrmuffyman19 күн бұрын
Yes, I am a native Chinese speaker and a Japanese learner. Matt's level of Japanese is truly native whereas Oriental Pearls, even judging from her latest videos, is still middle/high school level. That might be harsh but it is simply reality. Middle/high school level is great for an american btw, like top 3% of foreign speakers. For example, Matt could easily have a debate about economic policies, politics, and working culture in Japan, whereas I would bet a lot of money the woman in the video could not.
@AConnorDN384163 жыл бұрын
I took a semester of Japanese at my university after Id been self studying for about 6 months (not immersion learning, just going through the genki books) and like Matt says, it was extremely slow paced and much of class time was listening to other students struggle to say very basic things. The following semester I studied abroad in Japan and took a semester of Japanese classes (4 classes, broken into conversation, listening, writing, and grammar). These classes were taught entirely in Japanese and I was one of the lowest level students in the class. I got a lot out of the class because it put a lot of pressure on me to get better so I could actually understand what was going on (the first month was really stressful since I couldnt understand what my professors were saying hardly at all) and I learned a lot of cultural nuance from my Japanese teachers that I might have picked up on without someone to teach me. That being said, I dont think the lessons themselves were all that useful. I think I promptly forgot most of what I learned in them, or at least a good portion, and we still spent a lot of time listening to other novice Japanese learners speaking instead of native content. It sounds like the kind of language school Oriental Pearl is talking about is pretty hard to come by if you're unable to travel at will. I was in an extremely fortunate and very unusual circumstance when I did my study abroad and dont expect I would have such an opportunity again. That is the reality for most people, I think, and especially adults that dont have any family support structure.
@zehaha3 жыл бұрын
Maybe it depends on the person? When I was a kid, apparently I started talking very late but with little to no mistakes for my age, whereas my little brother was talking way earlier but with a bunch of mistakes. We both are of course fluent now and had no problems as children.
@edwards27283 жыл бұрын
Yh, I think Matt won this debate. I don't think Oriental's points were bad per se but Matt is clearly more versed on the subject matter, which is something you would expect from someone who has researched the "linguistics and acquisition" aspect of language learning quite intensively and took it that extra step further.
@edwards27283 жыл бұрын
@@haroombe123 I also found her 'definition of fluency" very interesting. By her logic, I wouldn't be fluent even in my native language. Because I certainly pause a lot when expressing my ideas and I cannot talk about politics
@ToMaSsS103 жыл бұрын
Some comments are very disrespectful towards Oriental Pearl, her methods are viable and aren't put here for mockery. Even though I've done both methods, I do think self-stufy is way better.
@aziziever3 жыл бұрын
From financial perspective, I'd agree more towards Matt method. It's really costly to travel and pay for tuitions as they're mostly very expensive (at least for me).
@Ronlawhouston3 жыл бұрын
Acquisition is where it is at I was in high school German 42 years ago. We did like that one school where the teacher used hand gestures and wrote on the board. We never had textbooks. I had an opportunity recently to speak some in German. I am amazed at how much I retained. I say that was because I acquired it rather than learned it.
@kukka97363 жыл бұрын
I can really see both sides of the argument. I think they both make valid points and that their advice is catered to different types of people with different circumstances. Loved the video! Would love to see more debate/discussion based videos like these ! ❤️
@SmallSpoonBrigade3 жыл бұрын
I do, but it's pretty clear that Matt had the stronger place to argue from and that she was reaching a bit to try and refute his claims.
@The235Anil3 жыл бұрын
It is not much of a debate when one party comes armed with researched, well-evidenced arguments and the other has purely anecdotal conjectures.
@tamagosando63133 жыл бұрын
100% this
@bensomes76623 жыл бұрын
Destroyed!
@toucan88983 жыл бұрын
Master's student vs a guy who left college without finishing the degree. It would probably be hard for linguists to take these new theories seriously without some academic training and credentials.
@tamagosando63133 жыл бұрын
@@toucan8898 are you saying that college education correlates to intelligence? Lol
@The235Anil3 жыл бұрын
@@toucan8898 You prove my point by using the appeal to authority fallacy.
@motionfx13373 жыл бұрын
Thanks for this video! Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with different methods, society in general needs to hear more of this kind of constructive debates
@chrispienmancino61473 жыл бұрын
I don't really see the debate points being much different from each other. Other than she "likes" to have someone to motivate her hence the fact of going to Language school. Self study is all dependent on self motivation and the adaptation to improve. The main difference I do see that you matt have a higher standard than oriental pearl does and the understanding of "言語の学びが終わらない” Which is very essential not just in Language learning, but also in life(Improving on something or onesself). マットさん、これからも頑張ってください! I love watching your videos and Oriental pearls! Keep up the awesome work both of you!
@majora2313 жыл бұрын
I think a point you overlook is that not everyone can have such a high lvl of motivation like you Matt and early classes help you make the first steps towards this huge montain, it's also helped me with grammar that I struggled to study by myself, but I did quit before the end of the program to go MIA style but I don't regret langage class for getting started. Also the pace is very fast in langage school in Japan, people go for N3 or N2 (depending if they are chinese or not :p) after 18 months/ 2 years
@SupremeDP Жыл бұрын
This is a pretty important point and few people on Matt's channel get it, because they are all hard-core learners.
@lancastro22683 жыл бұрын
I cant know who is right, unless I knew japanese and Chinese to judge their levels.
@moyga3 жыл бұрын
Even if one was better it wouldn't prove they are right.
@afonsomendes69073 жыл бұрын
Whoever advocates the same method you used to get fluent at your own native level is right. I think it's quite obvious.
@leonardodavinci42593 жыл бұрын
Both of them are high-level speakers of one of those langauges. But that wouldn't directly prove anything
@afonsomendes69073 жыл бұрын
@@leonardodavinci4259 the thing about massive immersion is even if you spend your first 2 years in a language just studying it,if after that you spend 8 years of heavy immersion you will reach top fluency (not saying thats exactly what she did just random numbers off the top). You're right it doesn't prove anything. But if you take extremes, it is impossible to reach a native like level with just classical teaching methodolies, whereas some1 who does 100% just pure input will always acquire the highest result eventually... that's why i dont believe in her method, if you ask me, every successful language learner just ended up doing MIA at some point without knowing it, regardless of how they started.
@brendon24623 жыл бұрын
@@afonsomendes6907 Yes true, massive input and exposure will get anyone to fluency eventually. Matt even says you don't even need to srs. People reached fluency before there were ever srs systems like anki exc. You can just watch tv shows over as a form of natural srs. Look up words with an online dictionary.
@prestokrs13 жыл бұрын
I think one thing most people don't consider is that people are different. Some people prefer one way because they are more comfortable with that. If you force yourself to do something it will be automatically less effective.
@mohamedsoliman59623 жыл бұрын
In all honesty it feels like Oriental Pearl might be more inclined to disagree with the comprehensible input method because of the time she invested in the traditional methods. As someone who has tried both and has recently dropped language learning classes (dedicated classes outside of college or school and after attending for over a year) I can say that you can get more out of 30 minutes of listening than you can out of a 2 hour class. I feel like the problem for many beginners is that A) They don't know where to start and how to structure their studying/listening and B) Self-study might not be as motivating or as exciting as taking classes with an actual native speaker. Even though Matt's website Refold details the optimal process (in my opinion), it is a process that I went through naturally and that I wish I knew (or believed in) from the start. As someone who speaks a second language fluently and that has witnessed the wild variances between the people that speak English here I can say that the biggest difference was and always will be exposure to that language and its media (input). I rarely if ever spoke in class and my language ability was greater than most due to consumption alone (all input no output).
@mohamedsoliman59623 жыл бұрын
Also want to add that people's language ability and the place that they are at on the fluency spectrum is completely self-determined and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
@default6323 жыл бұрын
"People learn differently" is a catchphrase when people can't accept immersion is the only way.
@solidsn20113 жыл бұрын
My favourite debate so far! Anming is great and I love her way of thinking!
@Chatetris3 жыл бұрын
Oriental Pearl: Rule following, logic-based memorization, and classes. Matt: Embodied Cognition, Skill-acquisition, and language acquisition. The obvious choice is Matt's usage of skill/language acquisition.
@TheRealSlimShady5093 жыл бұрын
His choice is so much more appealing lol. Language is not reay a logical thing
@ankaschannel3 жыл бұрын
what I learned from this video: at the end of the day, there are different ways to make an omelette
@eigojiyouzu3 жыл бұрын
I agree with Pearl and Matt but ultimately that there are many ways to learn a language. Perhaps they should have debated primarily for the the efficiency of their method. In which case I'd agree with Matt. There's nothing like choosing the material you want to immerse in and learn at a pace dictated by your dedication rather than a school and it's students ability.
@coconutpineapple24893 жыл бұрын
I have learned English on my own for years. I had taken English lessons for 3month. But she didn't point out my mistakes. So I didn't improve. An another tutor pointed out my mistakes too many times and I felt down. When I translate the English textbook with Japanese translation, I get to know my mistakes without frustration. So I like self study.
@nightfox3803 жыл бұрын
I absolutely loved this debate. As someone who barely understands any Japanese but speaks and reads even less and conscientiously puts effort into pronunciation, and as well as someone who is learning organic chemistry at the moment (which is considered almost like learning a language), it's very interesting to see who I agree with more on each topic.
@hemikiwi8173 жыл бұрын
Intelligent and interesting discussion. Thank You both.
@DrReginaldFinleySr3 жыл бұрын
Indeed. I agree about special topics. I have been a science and critical thinking teacher for 20 years. Most of my students are fluent in their native language of English, but once we start discussing particular topics outside of their area, it is as if they heard me speaking a foreign language. I even have Chinese students that I tutor and when I have them look up the Chinese for the science topics we are covering, the most common response is, "I don't even know these words in my own language". Yet, they are fluent. :-)
@language_acquisition3 жыл бұрын
I think one explanation as to why you disagree about formal classes and yet have both achieved high levels of proficiency in your L2s is that if a formal teacher is speaking 90% or more in the target language, the "teaching" itself becomes input. So although the teacher is trying to employ conventional "learning" techniques (which have pretty much been established to be sub-optimal) the content itself becomes a means to acquire the language. For example, a teacher may try to explain a grammar rule, which in itself will have only minimal direct benefits to the student, but the sentences that the teacher employs to explain the grammar rule themselves become input which feeds the students "language machine", leading to acquisition.
@LinguistAmbie3 жыл бұрын
I agree with Matt that the skill building method is limited. Absolutely! I learn naturally as well ❤️ But I agree with Pearl about the "fluency".
@DerekBlais3 жыл бұрын
Both sides presented good arguments. I can find similarities in my experience learning Japanese with Matt's so I should be aware of my bias. I barely spoke any Japanese for my first few years. I took university classes, studied far beyond curriculum requirements, and got at least a few hours of listening input every day. Long story short: I had some Japanese friends that I only spoke to in English. They moved back to Japan. One day, one of them called and spoke with me in Japanese. Neither of us realized until a few minutes into the conversation that I was (only) speaking Japanese too now. It just came out naturally. The friend couldn't believe what was going on. This was about two years into my experience. I guess my understanding was gradually improving all along, but in terms of language output, I think I went from beginner to intermediate like a light switch. I'd say I achieved an advanced level after five years. It took me a few years of living and working in Japan, self study, and regular exposure to different situations. Have you ever taken part in Japanese funerals? I've done several. How about treat a person that fell off a building, call emergency services, stay and keep them awake until help arrives? Yes… I think having an “input loaded” learning experience helped me react accordingly in various situations. After my tenth year, I hadn't met any non-natives (who study Japanese) that spoke as well as me. Yes, there are celebs and KZbinrs (Matt and Dogen included) better than me, but I still consider myself in the top percentile. Being able to produce language well and quickly is ideal, but one thing that was interestingly not mentioned in this video: BUDGET
@jesusisraelcaudilloramirez62373 жыл бұрын
Matt´s method is the natural way how children learn languages, as babies all we get at the start is input, comprehension is the key, then a couple years later in average we start talking then school where we learn to read and wright the natural progression but as adults we can learn all kinds of ways.
@YuserAlhaj3 жыл бұрын
I didn't feel the time passing :) what a nice conversation! Thanks to both of you.
@NzV1233 жыл бұрын
You guys both have really valid points.. I took Japanese in middle school and high school, watched anime and Japanese TV shows, and lived in Japan for over a year now- all without any output. I still suck at speaking because I lack the self motivation that I think going to a language school would provide me. However, in the few phrases that I do say to fellow Japanese co-workers, they say that my intonation/accent sounds very natural. I think this is the result of absorbing input and gaining that intuition of how Japanese is supposed to sound, like Matt says. But, I also agree with Oriental Pearl that for some people, going to a school would give you those 2 benefits of motivation and a teacher to correct you. It's difficult to find the "correct" or "natural" answer on the internet or just from listening as there are different dialects or even expressions that simply can't be defined in a textbook. I.e. in America, people say "word" to agree with something. Imagine trying to understand the nuance of using "word" as a foreign learner of English.
@olivermaclean85643 жыл бұрын
My Chinese is at that level An Ming described where I can clumsily describe almost anything I want to convey, but not nicely, and I lack the advanced content that lies beyond lower intermediate (politics, religion, business etc). In my experience of being at that level I never once would think to apply the adjective 'fluent' to myself!
@malikbooker91873 жыл бұрын
But that is what fluent is. Fluent and being native like are two different things
@ReBufff3 жыл бұрын
I feel like, at least for Chinese, speaking early on is really beneficial because for me, speaking helps a lot with remembering the tones of the words
@user-bn8ie5zt9x3 жыл бұрын
So... Basically... Matt: free self study Pearl: pay thousands to get there
@malikbooker91873 жыл бұрын
pay thousands to get there faster in more than one language
@thebrokenmystic8793 жыл бұрын
@@malikbooker9187 faster? 😂🤣🤣🤣🤣 Matt can read advanced novels at the speed of a native after 5 years. I doubt she was able to do that.
@malikbooker91873 жыл бұрын
@@thebrokenmystic879 and he has been studying for more than 8 years sooo
@thebrokenmystic8793 жыл бұрын
@@malikbooker9187 but when he was able to read novels he was barely at 5 years, even check his reddit posts from many years ago. I doubt she can do that even now. Point made.
@thebrokenmystic8793 жыл бұрын
@@malikbooker9187 They both achieved great levels dont get me wrong, but considered matt has never even payed for one single course, and has not lived in japan like pearl has...I think Matt is more practical.
@Ahmedkhalifah3 жыл бұрын
As someone who is currently studying Japanese in a language school in Tokyo, I agree with Matt 100%. I learned English with the same method but with Japanese, I wanted to "shorten" the path of acquiring the language by attending a language school but it seems it was the worst idea ever.
@toshiotube3 жыл бұрын
As someone who eats omelettes everyday, I agree with both of you. Specially where you guys disagree. 😅
@calmontes6513 жыл бұрын
I think Matt’s approach gives hope to people without the resources to attend the high quality classes mentioned by Oriental Pearl. Beliefs drive behaviour, if people understood and trusted the power of immersion they would improve. So many immigrants in North America feel hopeless about learning English because they can’t pay or attend classes, and then they spend the majority of their time off-work immerse in their native language watching news, tv, entertainment, etc talking to friends and family, etc. They could empower themselves by dedicating some of their time to enjoyable English immersion.
@mcpuffinmuffin3 жыл бұрын
That was a very informative video, Anne and Matt. Thank you both for doing this. I think there was some confusion about what fluency means. I can't speak with any certainly on topics like; Science, Politics and Religion simply because I've not studied extensively about those topics in my own language. There are jargon specific words and concepts I've never heard of before. Dose that mean I'm not fluent in my own language? Of course not, there needs to be some clarity on this as otherwise no one is fluent in any language as no one person knows everything and how that is expressed. Once again, thank you for uploading this and I didn't mean anything bad by it just thought it was something that stood out to me. Hope you're both well. See you next time. 😀
@makigames65683 жыл бұрын
I think the point is more-so that some people can only hold a conversation about a few everyday topics. They can speak very well on the 5 topics they know, but nothing else really. Somewhere inbetween the extremes of knowing 3 topics and knowing all topics is the sweet spot, I guess. The term "fluent" is pretty useless in most aspects though, since everyone has a different definition as they mentioned.
Not to discredit her points, but I think Matt's Japanese is decently better than her Chinese. The idea that this is the highest level you could get to in Chinese as a non-native speaker is definitely not true. She definitely sounds very foreign in Chinese. I think people like 口语老师马思瑞 are a tier above tbh.
@alanguages3 жыл бұрын
What do you think of KZbin polyglots like Laoshu, Steve Kaufmann, and Wouter Corduwener? I saw fans of Laoshu literally state, that Moses is near NATIVE level in Mandarin and Japanese. I rate his Spanish and it was not good, albeit his fans stated he has a high level in Spanish.
@jbohman93 жыл бұрын
@@alanguages To be honest, I only speak English and Chinese (native English speaker, pretty advanced Chinese). I also watched a ton of anime in high school so I have *some* ability to tell how good someone's Japanese pronunciation is, but obviously not things like grammar and usage. Laoshu's Chinese is probably significantly worse than Pearl's, although I haven't watched much of his content so it's just based on me listening to him speak for around a minute. Kaufmann is very honest about his language ability and doesn't claim to be perfect or have perfect pronunciation, so I have 0 issue with him. Based on hearing him speak Chinese for ~30 seconds, I'd guess Wouter doesn't really speak it much at all. Who is Moses though?
@alanguages3 жыл бұрын
@@jbohman9 Moses is the real name of Laoshu. A Mandarin speaking friend of mine actually thinks Moses Mandarin is not even a comparison to Oriental Pearl as he is not on the same level as her. The sound gap between the two for his ears are like night and day.
@jbohman93 жыл бұрын
@@alanguages Ahh yeah so your Chinese speaking friend basically agrees with me. At least in terms of pronunciation (I'm too busy inputting to consume a lot of her content to accurately gauge her level) I'd say I'm decently better than her, but someone like 马思瑞 is even better than me, and still isn't quite native. The term native speaker in Chinese is a bit more complicated though when you consider China's linguistic environment, and that many "native Chinese" speakers don't have standard Mandarin as their first language.
@alanguages3 жыл бұрын
@@jbohman9 Yeah effectively he does agree with you. He thought Laoshu was so low in comparison, to Oriental Pearl, that it was unfair to compare the two of them. Many Chinese have Mandarin with their native language, so it does become tricky. Diglossia is what they grow up with, so it is an advantage.
@VoltzNSmith3 жыл бұрын
Its just very clear that Matt is correct on nearly all points. Pearl's point on outputting Chinese tones is well taken though, but that's very different than output as a whole. I can't remember which video, but Matt makes a point that there is only one correct way to respond to something, and although I think Matt would now recant that point, there's a lot of truth to it. Often in classes, teachers will correct a student with something which is already in their vocabulary or grammar established by the curriculum, but that often isn't a native response in that situation. Classes are valuable, but only after a significant amount of the language learning process has already happened.
@midoripuca3 жыл бұрын
Not everyone can live in their target language country or have access to a language school or private tutor..
@jamesboston3 жыл бұрын
I agree with Matt that speaking early isn't important. But I do think that trying to imitate the sounds of a foreign language can make it easier to hear those sounds. You don't need to try and form your own sentences. But trying to repeat what you hear can help with ear training. You get better at recognizing phonemes that aren't in your native language and that makes it easier to take in more input. Also there's something about muscle memory that can be a memory aid in general. The words just come to mind quicker if you already know how to move your mouth to say the word. The body is very good at remembering.
@dey129563 жыл бұрын
Matt I think you are right on this. I am native Mandarin speaker. After checking some of her videos, whether seeing from the Taiwanese or Chinese accent of the language, I have to say her accent is just so far from perfect compared to what I have seen non-natives speaker speaking. Those people will still from time to time make certain minor mistakes (untypical of native speakers) and the general flow and intonation/accent feels right. But her speaking, hmm, if it’s not for her saying having being an advanced and fluent user in Mandarin (which I sort of believe she may be), I would mistake her as an at best intermediate level learner... so, yeah, it seems like speaking too early on did bring her a lot of deeply rooted bad habits
@languages37343 жыл бұрын
As a self learner, I can't stand schools, I have my own pace and way of studying/learning. Actually, if I do it myself, I am more motivated, than someone giving me orders how to do it.
@user-wl5uh7eq1g3 жыл бұрын
Oriental has really beautiful eyes 😍
@raenastra3 жыл бұрын
so does matt :)
@Aditya-te7oo3 жыл бұрын
@@raenastra Brother from another mother. 😂😂 ভাই কোনো ভাষা শিখছেন কি ?
@user-du1vj3ro1j3 жыл бұрын
I had to zoom out on youtube because they were starting too far into my soul
@Greyreal.3 жыл бұрын
Simp
@MikhaelWebb3 жыл бұрын
yeah, reflecting all that kanji/hanzi knowledge we seek, haha
@AysarAburrub Жыл бұрын
i learned English to a native level in all aspects (grammar, near native accent, proper structure, vocabulary, and even cultural references and idiomatic phrases etc.) That being said, i still hum and umm and "like" when i speak. Heck i still do that in my native language (Arabic), it's just how i normally speak. I dont think the fluidity of ones speech has anything to do with "fluency". In my opinion fluency is achieved when when you are able to talk about anything you want without having to mentally translate from your native language using grammatical rules. Even when talking about very specialized or specific topics like for example going to a mechanic and knowing the word/phrase for "cranking the ignition" or "the lug nuts are loose" or whatever. Even If you dont know the exact word or phrase that a native speaker would use in that situation, if you're still able to use other words to get the message across, then you're fluent in my opinion.
@LangJourney3 жыл бұрын
What was the name of the Mandarin school that she attended?
@Tehui19743 жыл бұрын
Interesting point about competition in the language class. I was taking classes in my target language this year, and I also used that environment in a positive way by training harder outside of class. I was always supportive of the other students though.
@valentinwodolashski80463 жыл бұрын
Being an adherent of Matt's MIA, but working as a language teacher... (':
@collinford42213 жыл бұрын
How do you do it? I've wanted to become a language teacher to teach about language acquisition for a while, but I've started to think that it might be impossible
@valentinwodolashski80463 жыл бұрын
@@collinford4221 I am not sure whether it's possible either :')
@valentinwodolashski80463 жыл бұрын
@@collinford4221 since people seem to live in some kind of illusion
@collinford42213 жыл бұрын
@@valentinwodolashski8046 It's insane, isn't it? Millions of students in the US are forced to attend Spanish class for multiple years, and none of become even remotely proficient in Spanish. But nobody says anything about it. It's just like, yep, that's our education system at work, what about it?
@valentinwodolashski80463 жыл бұрын
@@collinford4221 same stuff in Ukraine about most languages taught at most schools. So I even started to take it for granted that foreign languages are not supposed to be actually acquired at school. It's just one of ways to waste one's time it provides for
@user-sky-you-shka3 жыл бұрын
I'm happy to see this video, I have found the answers on some of my questions. Totally agree that there should be invented new terms for language learning. Love you both guys, thank you for your work
@Bonapartinha3 жыл бұрын
I think if u need school to be motivated to learn something, u don't really want to learn it at all
@Bonapartinha3 жыл бұрын
@@Muhammad.F.A yeah but in my mind if someone is truly motivated to learn a language or anything they don't need to go to school but if they want to go because they want to speak from day one or any other reason thats okay in my opinion, although i totally agree 100% with Matt.
@qw16263 жыл бұрын
@@Muhammad.F.A Yeah, if you are an extrovert then oriental pearls ideas would probably be more fun and motivating, but Matt’s channel is more about being optimal.
@divinepickle48663 жыл бұрын
There's so much wrong with the mentality displayed in this comment, and I can only imagine it comes from a lack of understanding regarding how a variety of people can achieve a variety of long term goals in a variety of different ways.
@Aditya-te7oo3 жыл бұрын
@@divinepickle4866 Yeah man. To each their own. Your life, your language, your choice.
@Kojitsu3 жыл бұрын
@@divinepickle4866 Motivations vary. I agree with you there. That being said, someone who intrinsically enjoys learning the language is probably more likely to succeed than someone who hates it but wants to put a bullet point on their resume. The former doesn't have to force themselves since it's like giving chocolate to a chocoholic; they just eat it up.
@yabbamita3 жыл бұрын
So the fastest and most effective way to learn a language is to hire a private native teacher of that language with a curriculum tailored to your level of motivation, discipline, competence, and specific goals. Sounds about right
@sanl22103 жыл бұрын
My definition of fluency is if you're at the same level of your native language in your target language: listening, comprehension, output ability, etc., except for your accent, that's ok to not be "perfect".
@lorelittrell Жыл бұрын
I'm a Spanish native speaker learning Japanese, and I love listening to Matt's speaking not only because the valuable content but also because his English is way better than tons of Americans I have listened to. 😮 No wonder why he is good at speaking Japanese. All his ideas are that very well structured that he never corrects himself when speaking.
@ladtm11 ай бұрын
is spanish worth learning be honest
@jennifermarea80113 жыл бұрын
The main reason I think Matt's approach is better is because it seems more practical for regular people. The other way sounds sooooooo expensive. I'm learning Korean but I can't afford to move to Korea, go to a Korean language school for 4 hours every day and then hire a private tutor for 2 more hours every day. Also I'm studying to be an English teacher in college and we learned in one of my classes last semester that a silent period should be allowed and encouraged for the first year after a student moved to the US and that we should never force them to speak early
@williambudd26303 жыл бұрын
To really get into learning methods, requires testing on ordinary people, and not what works best for these two gifted individuals.
From your own video with Krashen, you asked him if early output is damaging, he said he didn’t know. Krashen says input is good he is silent on output.
@Iteachu2beninja3 жыл бұрын
The video that Krashen originally made that made him famous involved him explicitly saying "Talking is not practicing, these things don't help you" But I also think that the more important point is this: talking is an excellent way to remind yourself about the shit that you've heard
@justincain27023 жыл бұрын
Krashen has said that he doesn't see a need for early output and that more research needs to be done on it, but I think it's pretty intuitive by looking to other fields that practicing things wrong is a hinderance to progress. That's basically the main reason people have teachers is so they get mistakes corrected right? Matts argument is basically if you internalize the language first, you can act as your own "teacher" when it comes to monitoring your speaking for mistakes.
@yonahuski57283 жыл бұрын
A note that I would say about Matt disagreeing with learning grammar formulas and translating in your head: In my own experience of learning Spanish, I think it is amazing for many people like myself to learn grammar like a formula, or to learn the rules like puzzle pieces. The grammar, memorization, and formulas are like a map that become intuitive as you practice listening and speaking more. Also, as you learn a word from memory and begin to use it more and more often, you gain more intimate knowledge of that word until it doesn't have to be translated anymore. I am stepping into intermediate Spanish now, and there are many Spanish features that I no longer have to translate when listening, while there are some new words or things inferred through context that undergo a sort of translation. As your base proficiency grows, the need to study grammatical formulas and vocab diminishes until you are basically left with Matt's approach. Doing it this way would be faster than Matt's method of learning like a baby would because as an adult you are smarter than a baby and have infinitely more knowledge of how communication works in the first place, regardless of which language is being spoken. tl;dr It isn't all or nothing when "translating in your head" (because you can get pretty good at it), and memorizing words is really the fastest way to build vocabulary as long as you use those words in conversations until you intuitively understand their meaning. Same goes with grammar because those rules also become ingrained until you don't have to think about them.
@katukin__3 жыл бұрын
For me its just a debate between a method for the wealthy vs a method that someway or another anyone can implement and put into practice into their lives. I went to language school for 3 years to learn japanese and didn't get anything but anxiety. Now i'm learning by myself using Matt's approach and im acquiring the language much faster, even though I spend just a few hours a day immersing. I dont think going to the country and paying for classes + a tutor is realistic for most people. No offense, of course.
@tamagosando63133 жыл бұрын
Yes but she’s 25 years old and fluent in Chinese and will be going to せんもんがっこん (10:13). Not to mention there’s many ways to make an omelet.
@GeorgiosMichalopoulos3 жыл бұрын
Amazing conversation, thanks for uploading. I discovered Krashen's theory maybe a week ago and although I'm not yet 100% convinced I can say that a) it makes a lot of sense of my experience of learning/aquiring languages and teaching them b) it made teaching more pleasurable c) I introduced comprehensible input to my classes and the students loved it d) I actually enjoy more learning the languages I learn. Moreover, it connects learning foreign languages with Chomsky's theory, which makes soooo much sense. Any person who has been even minimally exposed to Chomsky and knows foreign languages should wonder "Why am I taught foreign languages in a way that completely contradicts how I learned my mother tongue"? I had read books and articles about language aquisition and I always wondered how can their theoretical background be so VASTLY different from what we know from Chomsky. Just think about it, just by virtue of being human beings we possess an amazing ability to master our native language. It never fails and it's unconscious. You have it simply by virtue of being human. Why not apply the same method to learning foreign languages? Why does it have to matter so much that the language is foreign? Especially given that memorizing rules is always the worst way to go in *any* subject? Our brains might not be designed to understand the universe or write down mathematical proofs but they sure have the ability to learn languages. Shouldn't we trust more our ability to process linguistic information instead of relying on learning and applying rules as if were studying physics? Another thing I wanted to add, assuming responsibility for what you want to learn and doing it yourself is *always* the way to do it. Having classes is fine as long as you realize you are the one who has to do the work, I say this both as a teacher and as a student. Self-study is definitely a thing, not only in languages, but in almost any subject. Actually, once you specialize enough/get to a high level self study/research becomes the only way. But self-study doesn't have to be solitary. You can study outside an institution with a group of passionate friends. Especially today, when you have excellent quality content available online for all topics, self-study is such an obvious thing to do. All that said, I think there is still a place for learning things in an institutional framework because it does provide structure and helps people who are less disciplined/motivated roadmarks and goals. What I really hope for is that at some point enabling people to learn things themselves would be more encouraged especially at schoold. It's definitely not done enough, certainly not in my country. This is a really fruitful task for teachers everywhere in every subject: to give their students the skills to explore knowledge and problem solving on their own. PS I've written this text in English, which is not my native language, and not once did I stop to think of a rule. When I went back and corrected what I had written it was always through intuition and NOT because I followed a rule. I know from my advanced students that they do the same when they write/speak in Greek. And yet, when they are beginners we overload them with rules which we know for a fact that they WON'T apply once the reach fluency. If this isn't crazy, I don't know what is.