With all that ammo just sitting around, calling in a tip to the police might be a good idea, for public safety.
@bphillips20822 жыл бұрын
I am surprised the Jeep hasn’t been stolen. That Harley’s probably worth a lot of money. I agree you should report that house and all the ammunition inside to the police.
@mamitrece5641 Жыл бұрын
Jeep is no longer there
@hertribe1978 Жыл бұрын
My first inkling was Fire Damage really interesting explore
@nickbakker69632 жыл бұрын
Hey Noah, this is certainly an interesting find!! As a retired officer, I encourage you to notify the police of what you've found and the property location. There's more to this than meets the eye... That's an incredible amount of decay. Thanks for being extremely cautious Noah - a place like that, you never know what you may encounter...
@jillymills12 жыл бұрын
Maybe a bikie secret house
@CommonWealther Жыл бұрын
Good advice from Nick Bakker. Please do the right thing, before someone else finds it. It just may save someone's life. We have too many guns and bullets on our streets now. Love and Hugs from Ptbo. 🇨🇦
@terripresto293111 ай бұрын
Wow ! I LOVE THE WAY SOMEONE THAT HAS AUTHORITY AND PROBABLY MULTIPLE WEAPONS TO PROTECT THEMSELVES, AND KNOWS WHATS SURE TO HAPPEN IS TELLING YOU TO NOT DEFEND YOURSELF! I AM GUESSING HE'S ON THE WRONG SIDE! AND IF HE'S NOT SORRY!
@billshroyer94872 жыл бұрын
Nice explore. Thanks! I couldn't understand more than maybe 15% of what you were saying, but the pictures said the most interesting stuff anyway. ;-) Keep explorin'!
@urbanarcheology73462 жыл бұрын
Woah! That place is incredibly decayed! Was not expecting that from the way the outside looked! That jeep doesn't look to be in bad shape tho! Lol crazy all the stuff you found in there! Stay safe guys, cool video! 🤘😎
@danw10892 жыл бұрын
Never seen a couple of guys so scared of change and bullets , seems pretty average to me
@Cricket280002 жыл бұрын
I actually dated an undercover DTF AND I WAS SHOCKED AT SOME OF THE PLACES THEY HAD..
@karensinden61492 жыл бұрын
Its nice to see you...hope your headaches are getting better
@mimzyc99492 жыл бұрын
Your explores get weirder and weirder. This one was creepy not only because of ammunition but it was also a maze of rooms. Really love your videos!
@joshriver752 жыл бұрын
That Nikko audio rack was some pretty high dollar stuff.
@compfox2 жыл бұрын
I am not so surprised, that this house was abandoned, but about the fact that it was not looted all the time. With surely valuable items inside. Even money...
@TommyAlanRaines2 жыл бұрын
WOW What A House and the Ammo Dang!!!!!!!!!
@mancima2 жыл бұрын
Wow!! That by far is the craziest explore of yours that I watched. It’s always unnerving when an abandoned house has so much stuff left behind but this is just nuts. Someone obviously cleared out the guns that were left behind which is disturbing in and of itself but why would they leave all that ammo behind? Also, the scopes which are worth quite a bit. How no one has come by with a truck and grabbed that Harley and ATV is beyond me. I’m wondering if this guy was a retired US government employee who went a little crazy with his toys. Weird. I was worried every time you took a step. Be careful! If this were a video game that house would be a great place to power up!
@carolyng5044Ай бұрын
It would be nice to see an update on this property. What has happened to it and if you made a report or police tip on it. I am perplexed by the amount of "stuff" all over the place. But the guns and ammo? OMG. What the heck was going on in this place? Would be interesting if you could get background history on this place. Very creepy place.
@gretchenhinkle14502 жыл бұрын
Witness protection maybe? Undercover officer? Interesting the decay, the breathing apparatus was a good call. I enjoy your channel, stay safe. It would be interesting to know the background story.
@ryanrezi2 жыл бұрын
They were for sure hunters. U can tell by the small metal cages they had throughout the house for smaller animals.
@rantingcommuter22582 жыл бұрын
What an odd place! It does have a vibe of criminality with all of the bullets! Stay safe!
@09fallgirl2 жыл бұрын
Wow unreal… great explore but a little freaky !!!
@whattheheck10002 жыл бұрын
This house has been abandoned for at most, a little over 21 years. The "Gladiator" VHS seen at 10:50 came out on November 21, 2000, that's the newest thing I could find (although there's a decent chance I missed something newer). Still, there seemed to be a lot of late '90s stuff in this house but really nothing past the very early 2000s. I'd guess this house was probably abandoned right around 2001. Probably wasn't a very old house, 1970s or 1980s built perhaps, and probably shoddy/"bare-minimum" construction. It seems to have already been having roof problems when it was abandoned. June 16, 2022 5:28 am
@batsu7112 жыл бұрын
this Polaris Sportsman in the garage is a 2006 or 2009 model.
@Ro_hitt2 жыл бұрын
There was an LG LCD monitor @12:40
@mattpirri21802 жыл бұрын
Plus the sportsman had decent tire wear. It’s not brand new. Probably only abandoned since like 2012 give it take a year or 2
@brendacowan66892 жыл бұрын
Interesting. Decay is beautiful
@wigglewiggle37892 жыл бұрын
Man, I would be afraid to fart in that place. That would be enough to knock over a wall. Awesome vid. Take care man.
@UncappedFilms2 жыл бұрын
Nice! looking forward to this!
@whattheheck10002 жыл бұрын
Thinking early-mid 2000s was when this place was abandoned. It's in horrible shape for a place that was probably last lived in about 20 years ago. The roof seems to have been made of Alka-Seltzer, it dissolved so fast. June 15, 2022 9:29 pm
@joangravel24362 жыл бұрын
Thanks for video sure alot of stuff abandoned
@TheMast3rStunn3r2 жыл бұрын
Another amazing video thank you Noah
@markwhitaker60752 жыл бұрын
The guy was a reloader. The "bags of ammo" was empty brass. He makes his own ammo. (very common in America) nothing gives me vibes of criminal behavior. Seems fairly normal.
@nsredneck Жыл бұрын
I like how he said giant assault rifle bullets. Just normal hunting rounds lol. The ar-15 he is referring to are way smaller.
@user-iamRobinV682 жыл бұрын
How is this house still standing?? Awful decay. Be careful Noah!! 🥰🥰
@bettybrown85342 жыл бұрын
Ammo., Money, and who knows what else.. Very interesting video.
@clairefunnell84812 жыл бұрын
What a dump. Gave me some creepy vibes here. It's a death trap. Never seen so much ammo in a house in my life weird and creepy. Awesome Noah. Take care.
@tracethomasvickers22242 жыл бұрын
Hope you notified the law on this property🙏🏼
@user-randi19872 жыл бұрын
Wow, what an odd, creepy, squishy, decaying place. Interesting but I didn't get pleasant vibes at all. Whatever went on there wasn't good. Thanks, Noah and friend
@johncooper99802 жыл бұрын
Great video. Thanks 😎👍👍
@dorindaengland3132 жыл бұрын
Yes , yu really should notify someone about all that ammo in that place , I cant express how dangerous that is to the safety of not just people but kids who may get their hands on it and want to experiment with weapons and the ammo thats there,...its a disaster waiting to happen, PLEASE NOTIFY SOMEONE to clear out !!!!! thanks man !!!
@fixmastermike9132 жыл бұрын
Interesting there was a sign taped to the safe about member rules. Perhaps it was a clubhouse for bikers. Might explain the hasty retreat if there were indictments or something.
@laurabrooks76552 жыл бұрын
I was thinking a militia headquarters, especially with the US flag.
@Monkeyfederalli2 жыл бұрын
"Attention members please see merchandising or sales staff for assistance. Thank you" this dosent scream bike gang to me, more retired gunshop owner, or I got this safe cheap.
@didibolter93626 ай бұрын
I think that Brandon is so funny when he's talking about the bullets and guns 🔫, he has a wonderful voice! I like the front doors The double fireplace The bay windows The built-in wall oven
@mkernen2 жыл бұрын
I don't speak much Canadian but here goes: so house it goin' eh? I love checking oot your hoose explores.
@jadenicole94682 жыл бұрын
I think I saw your post on a group on fb!
@Nowitsfound2 жыл бұрын
That Gibson flying v guitar is a pretty expensive guitar.. it's just bullets you'll be OK honey lol
@ChantalsCritters2 жыл бұрын
Great exploration. You don't need to be a hunter to have your gun license in Canada
@brianromo13622 жыл бұрын
THE BULLET HOUSE 😨
@Mikes_carnivore_journey2 жыл бұрын
Just an avid shooter and hunter. I seen reloading parts and equipment. That's right America home of the free! Haha
@deborahkimball-billups6405 Жыл бұрын
You should have looked in the cabinet behind that sheet with the red ladder leaning against it.
@NoahNowhere Жыл бұрын
I just wanted to get the hell outta this one honestly, place gave me the creeps haha
@jessalyn292 жыл бұрын
the secret basement looked like an old pool that was built over
@HyliaFell2 жыл бұрын
Having a motorcycle and ammunition doesn't make you a "biker gangster". Look at all the motorcycle books in his shelves. Guy seems like he was just retired and likely ran or helped operate a shooting range on the side. The safe with the "members" thing was likely just something repurposed from said range since I don't think most biker gangs keep "Sales associates" in their homes/club houses.
@marthamitchell94522 жыл бұрын
Something odd is going on with that place. It can’t have been abandoned as long ago as the decay would have you think. Unless the roof disappeared the day they left it should have been in much better shape. There were CFL bulbs in a light fixture and I would see items that were absolutely spotless, like the flag, in random areas. All the wet ammo laying around is a real public safety issue. If kids found it they could really get hurt and if there were to be a fire there there is a very good chance of someone getting hit by exploding ammo before they knew what was happening. A friend had his garage catch fire and he had some ammo stored in it. The fire department couldn’t even try to put it out because it was shooting at them and sending out propane can missiles.
@robertsitch14152 жыл бұрын
I guess you could say that at this time, CFL bulbs in a residential building is a clue that it's only been abandoned in the last 20 years.
@karenb6791notakaren2 жыл бұрын
Yeah, the flag looked new to me. 🤔
@Monkeyfederalli2 жыл бұрын
@@karenb6791notakaren American "outdoor" flags are plastic and very sturdy, tend to be a once in a lifetime purchase.
@waynebender88352 жыл бұрын
There are things that can be saved. The Gibson guitar. That is worth some money. Some of the collectible cars. The remote cars. The motorcycle and the ATV. You tell no body want through the place. Because the ammo left behind and the money. The small bullets could be for a Derringer.The roof is completely gone. There is no way you could save this house. The person could have also work for the government too!
@marthamitchell94522 жыл бұрын
Those small bullets look more like primers for reloading your own ammo, unless you’re talking about the copper things in the bags and loose. Those are the actual bullet, projectile, that would seal the powder in the shells.
@waynebender88352 жыл бұрын
@@marthamitchell9452 I couldn't see that well and I guess.
@MarkyMark19862 жыл бұрын
We love guns and ammo. We love bows it’s awesome being able to protect yourselves and being able to hunt. This is the coolest house you’ve been too
@hardtop56562 жыл бұрын
And if you did turn this place in would you update us on what they found out if you can and thank you for the great video
@tylersowa38582 жыл бұрын
That's a real jeep! Not a fiat wrangler! Like dude said below, that jeep is a BADASS vechile . The 4.0 inline 6 👏
@sheila38452 жыл бұрын
interesting find... hoping you called it in so knowbody else finds the ammo
@davebrittain92162 жыл бұрын
Very unusual for Canada.
@rocktruckrob2 жыл бұрын
Yeah… weird how much ammo was there…you should have checked in that aluminum case might have been an assault rifle or something…good call hauling butt out of there….would have done the same….great vid brother
@nightrider67692 жыл бұрын
Hey Noah great video I don't know how you found this one but this is pretty cool I've never seen a house this bad off with the roof being as bad as it is I mean every room you walked into the roof was caved in this would have been a great house to fly your drone over and see what kind of shape the roofs in and the property but yeah with all that ammo sitting around definitely a drug activity house or something but be careful in houses like that you got a lot of guts walking on those floors I bet they were soft. Can't wait to see Brandon's video on this house.
@kennethsonier17662 жыл бұрын
This has got to be the most decayed disaster I have ever seen! Seeing all that ammunition being an American I would have continued to dig and see what else I would come across. Guns are an American way of life. Gun laws don't stop crime. This was quite an interesting exploration I thank you for taking us along Noah. Be safe out there 👍☮️🇺🇲
@luke1442 жыл бұрын
I have a soft spot for old stereo equipment 2:22 broke my heart. That amp is so nice. Oh God I'm going to start crying if I don't stop.... jk but damn that's sad!
@terrahmama2 жыл бұрын
so strange...this house did not seem that old. The decay is amazing. The Amerrrican flag seemed new...it should have had mold or at least green algae on it. How close to the Border? My 2 theories..Drug smuggling operation that they had to abandon quickly for whatever reason and it wasn't because they had been found out...not sure of the Canadian equivalent of the Drug Enforcement Agency but this house would have been confiscated and things inside. I hope you let the local authorities know. My second theory is it was a SkinHead Clubhouse and they just have never gotten back to the place? I don't really know but something is really strange about it and it makes me think you guys were the first in there after abandonment. That Harley would have been taken...was there any plates on any of the vehicles? The story behind this house is super interesting and my investigative curiosity is on high alert. Do you guys look up the county records when you look at these abandoned places? Lots can be learned from that alone...though this one you should just let authorities desl with. Something is seriously not right about it.
@JohnShinn60782 жыл бұрын
I noticed that about the flag also. 👍
@tylersowa38582 жыл бұрын
He even has scanners or jammers by window . 50/50 he was a biker gang
@oldladywithcats2062 жыл бұрын
If that place ever caught fire, oh man that would be so dangerous.
@nsredneck Жыл бұрын
Actually ammo lit on fire just acts like a firecracker, the brass case just blows up and the billet stays in place . It needs to be in a chamber to direct the projectile down the barrel and gain pressure.
@tannert65972 жыл бұрын
I would have grabbed that Nikko Alpha 230 power amp and ran
@jeremyi17882 жыл бұрын
Why does an inanimate objects scare you? Does a toothbrush scare you? Light bulbs? Forks?
@carolyng5044Ай бұрын
You won't see this I am sure. But I just had to comment on your comment. It's "scary" what could happen with these inanimate objects. Kids exploring it. Or someone setting fire to it. Those "inanimate objects" would become missiles in a fire. Did you happen to hear traffic going down a street/road. You could become a victim of an "inanimate object". Why do dumb asses with no brains think they are so smart?
@Amanda-wc2tn2 жыл бұрын
It was all suspect, but I'm with the people who are mentioning the sign about members on the safe, how clean that American flag is, and those tool boxes and stuff sitting around them in that same room aren't near as dirty and most of the other stuff- had to be SOME KIND of "headquarters" lol
@natewrites78032 жыл бұрын
Excellent points. Agreed!
@MissShell19752 жыл бұрын
That would have been cool to explore. Can't believe the amount of stuff left behind though. Would have been cool to come across some firearms though lol
@nikkiwells74752 жыл бұрын
Loved this video, even with the creepy vibes!! Have a question, I know for your safety you wear the respirator, but it is very hard to hear and understand you. Is there a way that maybe you could have an ear piece with a speaker plugged into the camera going under the respirator or something like that so we can hear you a little clearer?
@joannemott71 Жыл бұрын
Did you guys take the money? I mean the place is never going to have anyone here. I would be taking the money lol. Have you ever had to call the police after going through a place?
@SnuggleyPanda Жыл бұрын
id took the money for sure
@cassandracamsell31622 жыл бұрын
Seems to me that all the ammo and money lying around and other things seen walking through this was a biker clubhouse at one point that was raided
@Penguinluvr682 жыл бұрын
All of that ammo, is just a nightmare if that house were to catch fire.
@nsredneck Жыл бұрын
No ammo lit on fire acts as a firecracker. It needs to be in a chamber to gain pressure to fire the bullet. Lit on fire the brass just blows up and the bullet stays there.
@mamitrece5641 Жыл бұрын
This guy was a actor and the vehicle is no longer in front of the house and down the street where the other abandoned mansion is there camera on the post facing this house
@Evil-Jesus2 жыл бұрын
Harry had a .44 mag lol
@cbrock4202 жыл бұрын
Being scared of , shells or empty shell casings is silly. They cant hurt you just laying there. Thats like being scared of a gun because your tv tells you to be.
@Ken-vk8pb2 жыл бұрын
This looks to me like this was a former drug dealer's house with all the ammo and bullets, and the large safe with crossbow with arrows found. There is way too much ammo and bullets here for the owner to just be a hunter. A hunter would not have ammo and bullets scattered throughout the house in just about every room. This house was owned by a drug dealer or someone involved in criminal activity.
@JohnShinn60782 жыл бұрын
Paranoid American survivalist fugitive hiding from the law, got caught or died away from the house? Just a thought. 🤔
@marthamitchell94522 жыл бұрын
There was a lot of reloading being done there. The little flat rounds are primers and would be pressed into the bottom of the cartridge. Add gunpowder and finish up with the bullet they had bags of. Interestingly I didn’t see any powder or equipment for reloading anywhere.
@loganriggs40792 жыл бұрын
That looks like a normal house in most of America. All the guns and bullets are a pretty normal thing to see in a rural southern American home.
@JohnShinn60782 жыл бұрын
ATV, Harley and a Jeep, Pretty much untouched? This place has to be in the middle of nowhere. Disgruntled American survivalist fugitive got caught or died away from the house maybe? Just a thought. Nice find Noah! 👍👍👍 PS: I belive your biggest danger would have been to fall through the floor.
@sithlordbilly42062 жыл бұрын
??? Is this in Canada?! 😟 ???
@JohnShinn60782 жыл бұрын
Yes.
@sithlordbilly42062 жыл бұрын
@@JohnShinn6078 It's so sad that the house went to waste like that! 😬
@tylersowa38582 жыл бұрын
It's only guns . No need to over react
@natewrites78032 жыл бұрын
It's not "just" the guns. It's things that could make it a public hazard, and dangerous, floor caving in, abandoned ammo, fire and explosives hazards.
@annabanana95652 жыл бұрын
Looks like the person may have owned a shooting range and also did ammo reloading on the side. May have been an older man who retired and the house may have had the roof damage from a bad storm or something. Definitely let the police know what's there. It needs to be cleaned up.
@nsredneck Жыл бұрын
That’s what jumped in my head too.
@teresaboone8932 жыл бұрын
It looks like it caught on fire and that trash all over is because the roof burned.
@karenb6791notakaren2 жыл бұрын
Report. This. Location. 😬😳🤯
@jennydoucette25382 жыл бұрын
drugs, gangs, weapons, tons of nice things that could be stolen property--could have seen all kinds of criminal activity before they went to jail and/or the law was hot on their trail.
@cruizzer772 жыл бұрын
To me it seems that the amount of decay does not match the time the house would have been abandoned, I'd say about ten years or less. The theory with roof damage by a storm would make sense and could even be the reason why it was abandoned. Regarding the ammo I've not yet seen urbex videos from the US with such an amount left behind. However even without knowing Canadian law I guess it does not absolutely mean that something illegal has been going on. I guess there are gun permits for hunters, marksmen etc. I.e. if someone had been a competitive IPSC shooter it would make sense that they were reloading whole bins of rounds because those guys shoot a lot of ammo for training. And someone who is a competitive shooter in one discipline could also be into others, i.e. skeet. Imagine that there had been a huge rainstorm one night that did severe damage to the roof and left the house soaking wet and that the owners had to seek security elsewhere. Afterwards they would return and find the mess left behind. Maybe the house was a write-off right away. Looking for things that can be saved they would in the first place certainly take the guns but the ammo, if already soaking wet, wouldn't be usable anymore. At least I wouldn't expect reloaded sports ammo to be watertight, maybe not even all factory ammo unless mil-spec. Maybe they were planning to return again later but never did. However I don't have an explanation why they would not have taken the vehicles in this case. Wait, maybe they already took the guns with them when they left for security and were in a hurry and therefore forgot the scopes and later never returned at all. Maybe they were killed looking for security and therefore couldn't.
@a.r.o76972 жыл бұрын
I'd rescue that Harley and Jeep Wrangler from there.
@irenewatts28742 жыл бұрын
Oh my goodness Noah. This place is a freakin mess. Everything has fallen in. All of those bullets around. Must be a gang or a drug dealer house. Maybe it’s a war veterans house who likes to be around guns. That is an outrageous amount of bullets and ammunition. How about that cross bow, that really scares me. I give you 2 guys credit for being in this house, one reason is because it can fall in at any moment or the gun lover can show up. I wouldn’t want to be there if they should. I don’t know nothing about guns and bullets so I can’t imagine why anyone would keep this much stuff in an abandon house that is falling in. This is by far the worse house any explorer has shared with us. Just a disguisting place. I’m glad you guy’s made it out of there alive and unhurt. It must have stunk in there too. This place belongs to killers of either people or animals. Thanks for sharing this gross place with us.🤮. Stay safe and well.
@Maybe1Someday2 жыл бұрын
That person was living. Jeep, Harley and an ATV
@anthonycoach45512 жыл бұрын
Where is this located about what state is it in is it in Florida or ???
@chevyforddodge39912 жыл бұрын
Canada
@anthonycoach45512 жыл бұрын
@@chevyforddodge3991 oh way to far for me..
@chevyforddodge39912 жыл бұрын
@@anthonycoach4551 in Ontario
@fredfunk40492 жыл бұрын
10,000 worth of brass and ammo. With current administration. And just because someone has reloading equipment and ammo. Doesn't mean a bad person.
@Micki522 жыл бұрын
I am surprised no body found all the bullets & bow & arrows & took them & all the money too. The Harley was awesome. No biker would leave that behind unless in jail or dead.
@JohnShinn60782 жыл бұрын
I wouldn't leave the Jeep or ATV behind either.
@Micki522 жыл бұрын
@@JohnShinn6078 For sure. I can't understand how people just up & leave everything behind. I guess I am to sentimental to just walk away & leave everything.
@KimmyLove69322 жыл бұрын
A very uneasy explore thats for sure. Man I swore around 12:15 I heard a fart. Hahaha
@SarahGreen5232 жыл бұрын
LoL! I'm American. I was not shocked. Curious, yes, but not shocked.
@hambone278032 жыл бұрын
I find it funny how they're scared, they're just bullets 🤣. my thoughts is somebody lived there prior to Canada changing their gun laws.
@marthamitchell94522 жыл бұрын
I’m not shocked either but where I live that would be a pitiful supply of ammo. 😂
@dougg10752 жыл бұрын
Someone should rescue that Harley.
@sithlordbilly42062 жыл бұрын
Do not know about criminals maybe owner. Maybe! 😬
@siandavis97342 жыл бұрын
3.06 I hear someone say wheres Neil.
@natewrites78032 жыл бұрын
Cripes!!!! I heard "Where's Neil?" too. Wtf!
@MarkyMark19862 жыл бұрын
We have rooms full of ammo in our houses and rooms full of guns in the USA. Also those little shots are just primers the guy probably loaded his own ammo.
@RaiderCBR6.52 жыл бұрын
Somebody came and took the gun's a while ago. All the plastic crates and tubes with ammo were left open with out the lids on. Ammo is heavy, coins are heavy, Harley's are real fu--in heavy. Gun owners know were there gun's are and keep ammo sealed. Either the owner took the guns or another party came after looking for guns. I think someone other than the owner came and took the guns because everything was left open, boxes, cases and safe.
@CD_Player_912 жыл бұрын
You said that person worked for imagination. Maybe He was a hunter when He wasn't working and confiscated a tone of ammunition then what ever reason started buying more and more ammunition every couple of paychecks.
@gabriella73842 жыл бұрын
Did you maybe check out the name on that card ?
@Monkeyfederalli2 жыл бұрын
Thats .303 rifle rounds. A medium sized hunting round.
@Monkeyfederalli2 жыл бұрын
.45 is standard pistol ammo, nothing special. Been around for 120 years.
@Monkeyfederalli2 жыл бұрын
The "tiny shots"... are primers, specifically rifle primers. This person reloaded their rounds, meaning they saved the brass after firing a bullet, cleaned it, and remade it.
@Monkeyfederalli2 жыл бұрын
Most of those ammo boxes are really old... like pre 1990 old. I think someone was a avid hunter and gun fan, and used to ride bikes but died without an heir. The bike is older but the quad is new, thats the sort of thing an older person would do when they can't hold the bike up anymore.
@goagirl20032 жыл бұрын
I need floor plans. Lol
@molanlabexm152 жыл бұрын
They either got killed or a long prison sentence. They don't get every property that drug traffickers own or frequent when somebody goes to jail.
@JK-gm6kk2 жыл бұрын
Is this not normal? Signed, an American
@Ro_hitt2 жыл бұрын
Please make sure to wear gloves before touching anything there