I got rejected (and then admitted) to Dutch Higher Education

American expat living in Amstelveen, Netherlands. Mother to one sweet baby boy. Registered Nurse, passionate about climate change and health disparities. My spouse, who is a Dutch citizen, convinced me to move here after a devastating wildfire season in California. My husband has always spoken of a magical childhood growing up here and we wanted to give our son the same.
Karen: A middle aged woman, typically blonde, who wants to speak to the manager. Overly inflated sense of entitlement.
00:00 Nederlandse Taal Leren
01:40 Stay at Home Mom Struggles
02:40 Experience applying to Master's Program in The Netherlands
03:10 Life goal: reducing health disparities
03:40 Rejection Letter
04:00 Dutch Academic Bachelor's Degree (WO)
04:35 Nursing as a Profession
05:04 American Nursing Degree Programs
05:45 Dutch Higher Education Appeals System
07:00 Dolce Verona (Amstelveen Restaurant)
08:25 WO Degree
09:35 My issue with bureaucracy
11:03 My favorite trait about Nederlandse Mensen :)
12:55 Ethics in Healthcare During Disaster Triaging: Utilitarianism

[@RH-ro3sg]

This is typically Dutch. 1st layer of filtration: reject someone on basic characteristics (in your case: not having a "v.o." degree ). Weeds out most of the inqualified candidates. 2nd layer of filtration. If you don't have enough people who got through the 1st filter, besides investing more time in those, look to the rejectees' _reactions_ to rejection. If they actually have good arguments, reconsider their rejection. It's all a matter of efficiency, from the viewpoint of the institution. The Dutch cultural assumption is that those who don't appeal their rejection either _don't have good arguments_ to appeal their rejection (i.e. they really don't actually have the required qualifications, either in academic qualifications or in job experience), or are _not passionate enough_ to still get the position by appealing. So those who suffer unfairly would be those that really want the position, and got what it takes, but are submitting to the initial rejection. In that sense 'modesty' doesn't exist in Dutch culture.

[@dublindutch6346]

haha yep, so well said. It's a Dutch "thing" really. Glad she passed the "test", i think her contribution to our healthcare system will be of high value.

[@TTTzzzz]

@@dublindutch6346 It's international.

[@EmilePoelman]

Happy you got accepted after the appeal! We need people like you in healthcare. (And in the world in general 🙂).

[@Meine.Postma]

I concur

[@erikmulder2574]

Ik ook

[@bartdekoning6047]

In terms of the different degrees, I think that the easy rejection mostly comes from the fact that nursing is always either an MBO-V or HBO-V degree. So basically a vocational degree and bachelor's degree. Where in the former they focus more on practical skills and the latter more on theoretical/academic skills. But their scope is technically the same when starting out. I think the biggest difference is pay and in ease of access in certain specialties. Both are 4-year degree, and 60 credits per year. Each credits is equal to 28 hours of work for the average student, so in total they expect 6720 hours from you. And they have quite a lot of responsibilities, from what I have read on international nursing forums, generally more than in the US, but not sure about that, not a nurse myself. Becoming a medical doctor can only be done through WO. WO Bachelor's here also have a much greater emphasis on research, something that in the US is only touched upon at the same level in master's degree, in that regard HBO bachelor's are more similar, as it has less of a focus on scientific research. The same goes with length. A WO bachelor is only 3 years, and a 1 to 2-year master's degree is usually seen as an essential extension to that degree, with HBO not so much. HBO bachelor's are 4 years, just like in the US. If you want to specialize, you can usually specialize as a nurse after a few years of experience. So for example becoming an cardiac care, ICU, or ED nurse, you have to follow a 1.5-year post graduate program. Becoming an anesthesia nurse even takes 3 years. And after or before that, you can give a shot to a master's program, which are given at HBO level these days as well. Think about becoming a physician assistant, nurse practitioner, and other roles that need master's degree. And nurses definitely participate in research as well. HBO degree instead of MBO degree makes all the above mentioned things either easier, more easily available, or possible at all. And I might put something interesting here as well: ambulance nurses. All ambulances in The Netherlands are always staffed with a nurse (there is only one level of emergency ambulances here: ALS). They are special ambulance nurses, and are assisted by a trained ambulance driver. These ambulance nurses must be nurses with a HBO degree and have experience as an ED, ICU (most common), or anesthesia nurse, and after having some years of experience there, they can apply for a position on the ambulance. They need to follow roughly a year of additional courses before they can start working on the ambulance together with the driver (who has a medical assisting role). Cardiac care nurse is possible as well, but your ambulance training will be a bit longer.

[@1993hermans]

Congratulations Ellen! Great insightful video as always! For people interested I wrote down a dutchies view on this topic, feel free to let me know what you think! have a great day everyone! In the Netherlands we have different levels of education from the age of 12 when you enter high school. which is a whole topic on its own with its fair share of problems. But the difference is very significant. I've had to drop to a lower level in high school and it went from too challenging for me to literally way too easy depending on the subject. Usually the difference lies with how deep you get into a subject. E.g. i had Biology in both levels of education, and at HAVO level we learned all the parts of a human cell and what they did in general. At VWO level we also had to learn the actual chemical reactions of how the cells get their energy and hormonal systems that influence it. And that difference is already this big in high school It definitely very much depends on the subject you study (which is one of the big flaws of this system in my opinion). Comparing to the USA, some differences can be as big as asking university's to accept application from people without a high school degree. Again, this difference varies a lot depending on subject, and depending on where in the world you got your degree. As a dutchie I don't have a huge problem with rejecting someone based on their lack of applicable degree in our country, but there should be more effort into looking at the applicant as a whole. I think that if you have other ways to show you are qualified there should always be a conversation. But i personally think its perfectly fine to expect the applicant to bring that up rather than the university having to do that preemptively for every applicant. when I was a kid, this family from Kongo Africa moved to our neighborhood, and i was good friends with them. The Dad had worked as a doctor in a hospital in Kongo for more than 10 years, but his degree didn't get recognized as valid to work in a dutch hospital because the standard of education in Kongo was very different from the Netherlands. He started working a 9 to 5 job to provide for his family and he went to the city hall to ask for guidance on how to get certified as a doctor again. They first took the time to explain everything he had to or wanted to know about the system and why this was the unfortunate situation, and they were gonna help him. within a couple of weeks he they got back in touch with him with a completely laid out plan for him. They gave him a job in the hospital 4 days a week, and study 1 day a week. the study took 2 - 3 years but he could work at the same time, and when he would gain cartain qualifications at University they would adapt his job in the hospital to fit his progress. The hospital paid for his study because they would gain a new fully certified doctor within 3 years. He didn't have to start all over again and do a study of 8 years on average that he couldn't afford. While learning he could gain experience in the field and is this new country/system without worrying about food for his family. And according to him, he wouldn't be as good of a doctor if he hadn't done those 3 extra years of University and working his way back up in the hospital. He has been working as a doctor in the Netherlands for over 30 years, and will enjoy his well earned Dutch retirement in 2 years when he turns 67.

[@toprob20]

I dropped down from VWO to HAVO myself, mostly because I was lazy... well because I never did homework. But we just weren't taught how to study and "just do what I say" didn't work that well for me. But I think the benefits of splitting students up along their abilities far outweigh any negatives. But your story about the Congolese doctor illustrates perfectly why the lady shouldn't have been accepted and have gone through the appropriate trajectory, which would've involved a preparatory program like all people with a HBO bachelor have to do.

[@fcassmann]

Hi Amsterdam here.We need people like you. Thank you.

[@margreetcharisius]

I’m so happy for you! And proud of you! 💪🏻☺️

[@angelavm84]

I am so happy you did it and went for the education! Others have already said it, but we're so lucky to have you as a dedicated nurse. Wishing you all the best & hope it will be all you want it to be and more!❣

[@michellezevenaar]

I get the concerns that the school has because American college is a lower level of education in many cases. They probably are looking for university level of comprehension and that letter sounds like it was written well enough to show you possible capability. I'm glad they gave you the interview opportunity! As for daycare thankfully you will get opvangtoeslag because you are studying!

[@rinynewton8297]

Hi Ellen, I totally agree with you. I am Dutch but lived in England, Scotland and Spain. I could work everywhere. Coming back to the Netherlands I wasn't able to do the same work here because I didn't have the "right papers" for it. You will find the Dutch want highly qualified professional people for every job. From cleaners way up to professional high education. There is little to no space for creativity. On the other side of it all is that you will get delivered high quality work in every sector! That you will find out when you live here for a while and will come to appreciate it. Anyway you ARE doing well. Keep going and you will never ever want to leave the Netherlands. Good luck. 👍

[@nfboogaard]

Gefeliciteerd! Ik wens je veel succes! Ik hoop dat je ook tijd over houdt om nu en dan een vlog te maken :)

[@Sarahhh_Klein]

This is so nice, congratulations!

[@JulesStoop]

Congratulations!! I am sincerely, genuinely happy for you as well as for humanity you’ll be able to be a healthcare professional again.

[@a.ar-castrejon6014]

yas gurl way to go!! all about the study of health disparities! it makes me happy you got in because you're qualified and deserving of being in the program ;)

[@anneliespeters5355]

So happy for you you’ve got admitted😁👍 You’ve done so well reacting to their initial rejection👍 And you are so right talking about the criteria for admitantance and you said it in a very polite way too. I’me sure your gonna learn Dutch, just study hard and try to speak it as much as you can and never be shy to do so! Learn from mistakes and you will get there in the end. Hope you get it all worked out with daycare. Wish you all the best and hope you have a wonderfull life and career here in the Netherlands. 👋👋🤘🕊

[@lbergen001]

Yes !! Another big step in your journey/career 👍👍good for you.

[@margreetanceaux3906]

Came across your channel only recently (or didn’t appreciate some of your other video’s enough…) but it’s talks like this that impresses me so much! Good for you! Go off topic as much as you want - it was really interesting.

[@marieketrompert4387]

I am so happy for you! You are an intelligent and sensitive woman, they must be very lucky to have you :-). I hope you will enjoy the masters.

[@jospieters5214]

Hi Ellen, the more I follow your videos, the more I appreciate you. You are a valuable person in any society. No need to say anything more. Thank you.

[@musictothesoul4life]

Hi Ellen, I recently found your channel and I am really enjoying your videos. I am American and my husband is Dutch. We also have a 2 year old boy. We went through US Immigration and have been together in the US for 5.5 years. We have decided to move our family to the Netherlands for a multitude of reasons. We hope to be moved by the end of next year (fingers crossed!). I cannot tell you how encouraging and wonderful it is to be able to see your experience and know that I won't be the only person in the world going through the process. All the best to you and your family!

[@iamsuzanne73]

Good job on the appeal. It makes you stand out in comparison to others who just “accept” the rejection. I guess that’s exactly what they are after. A natural filter so to speak. Good luck organizing things. Looking forward to your Uni journey 😀

[@royklein9206]

Congratulations on your admittance!! Although i don't agree with everything you said in this video I do respect the perseverance and getting admiited in the end! I'm convinced you'll be a great asset for the dutch nursing force! :)

[@jeaninevanlente3520]

Gefeliciteerd. You did the work and it paid off. Being a dutch immigrant to Canada, I have experienced the hassle of having foreign education acknowledged and valued. You are handling this so much more professional and politely than I did. Amazing!

[@jackvandersluis1723]

Congrats for being accepted! YES we need you! Have a great career! 👍

[@gerrygrouwe70]

Good that you stood up for yourself. That is the dutch way. Keep up the good work

[@HistoryHustle]

It's typical Dutch. There is a saying: 'Nederland, regeltjesland', meaning: Netherlands, country of rules. This mindset also led to the infamous 'toeslagenaffaire' which brought down one government. It's great to see you put in effort to blend in. Many expats I've encountered don't bother learning the language or anything. "Some issues with housing" is the understatement of the century. We have the biggest housing crisis since WW2. Won't get resolved anytime soon. Glad to see you have a place!

[@jwenting]

yeah, and the government is only making the housing situation worse with laws that make it harder to get building permits and not dealing with the flood of economic migrants from mostly Africa (abusing the refugee system) by rejecting and deporting the lot of them but instead giving them priority access to housing. It's insanity. My house has gone up 50% in value over the last few years, despite needing some renovation work done (new floors, new doors and windows, things like that). It's not for sale because obviously I couldn't get anything else even with that extra money over the amount of my mortgage, not even something smaller.

[@bartlucassen9145]

Congratulations !! Now the uni knows that you are motivated enough!!

[@eddys.3524]

Congratulations on your admission to University, Ellen! You're doing great! To explain the VO-degree : it's a level of highschool-plus level (highschool and Middelbaaronderwijs are not 1on1 comparible) giving access to WO/University ( Accademical education). But experience is valuable too. Btw... we have earthquackes too... mainly in Groningen because of gas extraction... Enjoy your Dutch summer with your family.. there's a lot to do and to experience . 'till next video !!

[@HammAlexander]

Great stuff! Good luck

[@cchrome3102]

Congratulations! As far as the daycare waitlists go, you could try contacting Hestia Amstelveen. I think they would have a place for your son (not associated with them in any way, but just a tip which might help :) )

[@jpdj2715]

"There should be housing for them." No, that's your problem, and it's the same for Dutch and foreign students. If you need to study away from "home" then finding housing is really your problem. Generally, it will be easier for Dutch students to find housing because they know the way the market works, speak the language, etc. A landlord advertising rooms for rent and asking Dutch only, is violating the "Grondwet" (constitution), but we should add that in Dutch law, you cannot use the constitution in court cases. So it's not very simple.

[@janjager2906]

I could understand your “Verpleegkundige” very well 🤜😃

[@TheEvertw]

Great idea to go for your master's. It really makes a difference in career options & pay.

[@00wheelie00]

Congratulations on getting in, motivated people should get the opportunity to prove themselves. You were being very kind, because I think that's what we (the Dutch) are very bad at.

[@vincenzodigrande2070]

Great upload again, and congratulations! What I take from this is that it would be awesome when international students that do decide to return back to their home countries, that they take with them the good about the Dutch systems and make the whole world a bit better place.

[@SAMUDRAMAC]

Greet! You got in! Congratulations!

[@_PJW_]

Hi Ellen, I just stumbled upon your channel. This video is the 2nd I watched tonight. And I must say I'm truly amazed about your style and poise. Cool and collected. Pretty Dutch in a way. That may also have saved you from stumbling at the first hurdle. So you now know the Dutch are sticklers for 'regeltjes'. Regeltjes are there to simplify things, but they inherently also bear the risk of over-simplifying. That possibly took you off guard. So be warned. I also think you analysis and appreciation of the situation (8:25) is spot on. 'Unfortunate' is an understatement. You offer some valuable lessons there. But I *do* think you should broaden your personal professional scope and network asap. My strong impression being that from your background you have sooo much more to offer than that you show. A variety of knowledge and experience, and with an international background. Like your thesis on ethics and health care during disasters (12:50). Yum! You will have noticed the combination of ethics, crisis management and health services being very topical right now. Both socially and politically. The way the Dutch public management handled the Corona crisis was (and is) pretty much a disaster. Don't hide your light under a bushel!. I don't know what LinkedIn has to offer these days, but surely there are other professional platforms also. I would also suggest you contact some hospitals and consultancy firms - the Dutch looove consultancy - and just ask for their advise. I think they will be very pleased to get to know you. You very politely do not want to criticize. But positive criticism is an asset, especially if presented in the courteous professional tone like you do. And the right people will recognise and appreciate that. And will reward you accordingly. __________________ * in your response on the letter you mention a 'WO degree'. That would be a 'Wetenschappelijk Onderwijs' degree? So your US bachelor degree is not equivalent to the Dutch bachelor degree? That sounds odd to me from a historic viewpoint.

[@aeiouaeiou100]

Awsome that you got admitted. My experience is that if you ask for things and are a little pushy you can get a lot of things done in the Netherlands. People will almost always listen to you and consider what you have to say, they will even ignore the rules a bit to help you if they feel your demand is justified (which is much different than in Germany for example). You just have to be very clear to people and ask for it.

[@expatsexplore]

Congratulations on taking that next step and it paid off! We have very similar interests and background - I am a nurse by training and received my exec MPH at UCLA ... my spouse is Dutch and we are going to visit The Netherlands in a few weeks to see his family and check out if we could return ... we also went through CA Fires a few years ago (for us, The Thomas Fires) - IF we made the move it would be great to have another ex-Pat friend :) For me, what I would do for work or if I want to attend classes - not just to learn Dutch, but other interests... all a new adventure. One day at a time

[@RogierYou]

I would be great fun if you could meet her in person for a ☕️

[@Meine.Postma]

When I was in hospital I had a lot of respect for the IC nurses. They managed the IC and did most things. Stayed friendly and were very professional

[@awijntje14]

thank you for keeping us updated on your progress and observations on things that are cool or might need some improvement. Also can I say that being able to make fun off yourself (with the Karen remark) is a sign you are slowly becoming a Dutchie hahahaha..

[@camilleizvarin7170]

You remind me SO much of myself. Aside from the "California upspeak" thing we got going on, I also have a son, and my husband is a Dutch citizen. I'm currently planning our move to the Netherlands. Im fed up with the violence and stress here in the states. I love the Netherlands so much and it's where I fell in love with my husband. I'm not a nurse but I'm a teacher. I just feel like we would be friends in real life 😁😂

[@carolinavanderlande4904]

Gefeliciteerd! Good of you to stand up for yourself! You’re talking about VO but I think you mean VWO, which stands for preparatory scientific education. This can be either gymnasium (incl. classical languages) or atheneum (whithout classical languages), so VWO doesn’t always include Greek and Latin. Anyway, based on what you said in your videos I think this is a great choice and I’m happy to hear that you get the opportunity to make your dreams come true!

[@harrybruijs2614]

Even someone who has a HBO, often needs an extra course to be admitted to the University, because of the different base of the study, WO directed at scientific research and HBO focused on practice. Beroepsopleiding.

[@harrybruijs2614]

At the start of the Atheneum you did get Latin but that's not longer the case. It is however still possible to do Atheneum with Latin.

[@bentels5340]

No, she's talking about WO -- wetenschappelijk onderwijs, university level education. In preparation for going there you go to VWO, *voorbereidend* wetenschappelijk onderwijs.

[@Paul_C]

@@bentels5340 That has always my problem too. I'm one of those who fit nicely between HBS and WO. The debacle that was the Mamoet process left many skeletons behind. 💀

[@daluzsoares]

Goedemorgen beautiful!!

[@johnveerkamp1501]

YOU'RE DOING OKE.

[@frankteunissen6118]

Do you have any idea how many anti-American prejudices you’ve killed off in this video? Girl! You rock! Thank you for coming to the Netherlands and making us better for it.

[@bentels5340]

Congratulations on getting in. Yeah, mutual recognition of diplomas and degrees is a big problem and always has been. Partly it's because there's a huge quality range in the US so it's a big job to know how to value degrees. But mostly it's protectionism on both sides. For completeness' sake: WO is wetenschappelijk onderwijs, university level education. Getting in requires high school education at the VWO level, voorbereidend wetenschappelijk onderwijs or preparatory WO. There are two flavors of that, one of which includes Latin and/or Greek, but it's not a requirement for most university courses.

[@Mrevolva]

dude , you have a great mind set!

[@PSPaaskynen]

I do not know if this was mentioned in any of the older comments (I only cheked the first bunch, so this may come as "mosterd na de maaltijd"), but the bit about not having a "VO degree" (Voortgezet Onderwijs) is due to the fact that the US highschools on average do not measure up the European standard of education-that leads to Bachelor degree studies. In many EU countries secondary school pupils who attend an exchange year at a US highschool often have to double the year, or do remedial studies, to make up for the shortfall in their educational advancement. "VWO " (Voortgezet Wetenschappelijk Onderwijs) is the Dutch secondary school that prepares you for Master studies at university (HAVO prepares for Bachelor studies at a "HBO", which I suppose would be college in the USA). A HAVO diploma takes only five years, while VWO takes six years. Not sure this clarified the matter well, but I am nonetheless glad that you got in and I hope you will thrive. Triage is indeed very hard on the medical staff who have to perform it. MSF doctors and nurses have a lot of experience of that and they often suffer from PTS afterwards. I think your initial rejection was due to the fact that you applied to a university instead of a university of applied sciences (HBO + Masters). The latter count experience as a major, or even required, element in their application process.

[@collectioneur]

I have many colleagues from abroad and some of them speak Dutch quite well, but usually with an accent and you know what? It doesn't matter. They come from the UK, USA, Hungary, Romania, Philippines and India and I help them as much as I can but you need to persevere and accept your skills because every one is different...

[@f.p.debeer7002]

Hi Ellen, Good for you to have a second go at the thing you want. (Should v.o. not be w.o.? W.O. = Wetenschappelijk Onderwijs) If you ever want to evaluate an educational degree you might contact the international organization NUFFIC. By the way as a Dutch citizen I studied Dentistry at the university in Utrecht. I graduated in '84 and from that time till now there was always a shortage of living space for students. Never let that hold you back from you goal in life. Go for it and it will change your life. I hope you have a nice life in the Netherlands.😁😀

[@Rob2]

Indeed the education rules for health care are strict, but of course that is for a reason: such a job also incurs a lot of responsibility. So Nurse education is grouped into different levels, and correspondingly the jobs are different (e.g. managing others, being alone in a night shift). It may seem odd, but the USA indeed has similar odd rules. E.g. an airline pilot in the USA has to have, after obtaining all certificates using appropriate education, have to have 2500 hours of experience before being allowed to work as airline pilot. That isn't the case here, you can go through your training program and have like 25 or 50 hours of flying experience after that, and become a pilot on a short-haul airliner.

[@wimschiphorst8541]

Making an objection, or lodging an appeal as you call it, is common in the Netherlands. Not just in the case you describe. Even if you get a police ticket, there's how you can object at the bottom. Government affairs the same. There is usually a term within which this must be done. If this is still rejected, then it is possible to go to the administrative court. Until the Supreme Court in The Hague. If you need legal advice and do not want to pay 300 euros if you have only pressed the doorbell of a law firm. Every city has a "Juridisch Loket Legal Counter". Where people can obtain free (taxpayers) advice and be helped further on their way.

[@BrazenNL]

I'm not sure if it's the perception of "nursing" being a vocational trade. So what would it be? I can't answer that. However, when I went to school in the US, on the application for the visa, a VWO high school diploma was equivalent to US high school and two years of college. E: Completely forgot: congratulations! I'm sure that with your dedication and experience, you'll do well. Enjoy the ride!

[@00wheelie00]

I have family that went to the US to get a bachelor's degree and then a master's ... after graduating MAVO with decent but not stellar grades. He was a straigth A student in the US! US high school levels are comparable to our MAVO, no wonder the top Universities there ask for a ton of extra curriculars to prove you can deal with the catch-up. By the time you have a master's degree from one of those universities you've caught up with the European Universities. So basically they cram two plus years of VO into their university program. It makes a year of high school worthless from an educational PoV for VWO/atheneum/gymnasium students. It's more a social and culturql experience. BTW you can have a VO degree without classical languages; I dropped those for being useless first chance I got. My VO degree was for: Dutch, English, Math 1/A, Math 2/B, Physics, Chemistry, History.

[@marcvolgers8352]

Dutch educational system is: Primary: 4-12 (all the same level) Secondary: roughly 12-16, 17 or 18 (different levels: VMBO (which has 3 divisions: pratical, theoretical and a combination, theoretical is often called by the old name MAVO - 4 years), HAVO (theoretical and a higher level than MAVO, 5 years) and VWO (even higher level and 2 divisions: Atheneum and Gymnasium, main difference is in Gymnasium you will also get Greek/Latin; 6 years). You can got with a MAVO/VMBO-T diploma to HAVO 4 and continue that, with a HAVO diploma to VWO and continue that. Tertiary school: 16/17/18+, also several levels: MBO (middle vocational, has 4 levels just plainly call MBO 1 to 4, where there's quite a difference between 1 and 4, overall 3-4 years; you need at least VMBO to enter), HBO (higher vocational, you need at least MBO 4 (sometimes 3 I think) or HAVO to enter, sometimes called University of Applied Sciences but not officially. You get a bachelor here, but I've seen now also a master after that) and WO or just plain University (you need VWO or HBO to enter, you get a bachelor first and can go for a master after that). We introduced the BaMa (Bachelor-Master) system earlier this century. You can get a bachelor at HBO, but you can't do a University Master with with a HBO Bachelor. Sometimes you can do some kind of extra year to bridge this. Not sure how this works with HBO master to university master. So the issue you faced isn't specific to foreigners. My main issue with the current system we have to choose really young, at around 11 your "level" is decided which I think is too early. In most country this is done later as far as I know which I think is better.

[@toprob20]

If you have a HBO bachelors that qualifies you can do a bridging program to apply to a masters program. You can't do engineering when you have a social workers degree. But you can always move up! So splitting up kids after the basisschool gives you all the benefits, while the kids who are really motivated still have plenty of opportunities to move up.

[@MrHaagsesjonny1]

@ 14:56 Being a resident of The Hague: yeah, that's the Place to Be not only for serious stuff but also for unprecedented humor. And this is Den Haag unofficial 'anthem': kzbin.info/www/bejne/pqWqe2utr8p6eqc

[@xXTheoLinuxXx]

There is quite a difference between The Netherlands and the USA. Even someone who works in the 'green' sector and without some degree, has to know a little bit of Latin :) Perhaps in the USA, an Oak is just an Oak, but in The Netherlands they might ask you if it is a Quercus Robur or a Quercus Petraea for example :)

[@jwenting]

Essentially US college education can differ from Dutch MBO to beyond Dutch university level depending on the exact college and department. And that's a massive problem when deciding whether an American college degree is equivalent to a Dutch degree, because just the diploma on its own doesn't say nearly as much as the Dutch diploma does. This is in part because of different standards between the states, in part because there are just more levels of educational institutions in the Netherlands as compared to the USA. USA has colleges, Netherlands has MBO, HBO, and WO. They probably didn't recognise your degree as being of the quality they require so rejected you with an opportunity to appeal. And the appeal was successful based on evaluation of your experience and appeals letter and paperwork. I think there are opportunities to get your US degrees converted to a Dutch one (or get a Dutch equivalent issued officially by the ministry of education to prevent the problems you had). And yes, there is a massive glut in international students which is causing problems to get Dutch students into higher education, and creates massive housing problems. As Dutch universities don't provide housing themselves but leave it to commercial rental agencies (Enschede excepted, to a degree) they can basically admit as many as they want and let the city council and rental agencies worry about housing them all. Which is why the ministry is stepping in and starting to put restrictions on the number of foreign students that can be admitted. The housing problem also isn't just for students, there is a massive housing shortage in the Netherlands overall caused in large part by the government making it nearly impossible to get building permits because of insane and irrational "environment protection laws". Expats have less problems with that as usually their employers can pay the exorbitant rental fees that are the only way to get anything at all any more. To give an example of how bad things have got: I bought my house in 2007 for 180.000 Euro. During the mortgage crisis the value dropped to 150.000. Right now it's valued at over 250.000 and I get letters from realtors wanting to buy it for more than that (it's not on the market, they just address them to entire streets at once in the hope someone buys) for more than that. And that's not even in Amsterdam or another major city. Congratulations on being admitted :)

[@NiinaW]

The difference in the bachelor for university or one stream lower (HBO) is mostly in level of statistics and research methods

[@harrybruijs2614]

Congratulations. I am very glad for you. I also did not take Latin or Greek and have still a equivalent of a Masters. You don't need that for every study, but probably for a medical study it is required. You can probably follow a course in it at the University. And we have sometimes a earthquake here however not that strong at most 5 Richter. I am bit out of touch because it has been a long time ago I studied, but it could be quite possible that the University has a daycare for children of student mothers. Just check it. I know that at the hospital I worked therr was a daycare for the children of the employers so I think it is not out of the realm of possibilities.

[@rudolffabrie3233]

For medical studies Latin and Greek are not required, but physics and chemistry are.

[@harrybruijs2614]

@@rudolffabrie3233 I said I was a bit out of touch, my student years are 50 years behind me. In my days you needed knowledge of Latin for Medicine. You could study it with a HBS-b, but had to follow a applicatie studie Latijn. The same when you wanted to study History. I should have known this because I have ended my working live as a teacher at VWO. It was quite usefull when you had to give a letter to a patient who was going abroad to a country which didn't have as first or second languages Dutch, English, German or French. MD in other countries also had a knowledge of Latin at least they understood the Latin names of ailments and illnesses.

[@chrisvandijk99]

Yeah the dutchies are very hung op on if you have a piece of paper. It holds many back in school, but also in jobs lateron. But congrats!! hope you like the study and do well!

[@ElMariachi1337]

Gratz on the admittance! Maybe a little tip since you do know Spanish: The Dutch letter G is basically a Spanish J so try to say VerpleeJkundiJe to your husband and I'm sure he will be amazed! (btw verpleegkundige is a hard Dutch word for sure)

[@BrazenNL]

I think the problem with that, is that she probably picked up a Mexican accent in Cali, where they pronounce the 'J' differently as in Castellano. It's more like our 'H'.

[@geraldinesundstrom691]

Congratulations! I am moving from Oregon in October and would also like to attend higher education. I have a technical question I hope you can answer. I will have a work/residence permit as family member of my partner, the main residence permit applicant. From another of your videos I think this was your situation? My question is did you need to change the kind of residence permit you hold when you enrolled in University? In my situation, from a work permit to a student? Thanks!

[@ExpatEllen]

No I highly recommend you use your partnership visa to apply for University. You may be eligible for EU statutory tuition fees with that. If you use a student visa you have to pay “institutional” tuition which is so expensive.

[@TTTzzzz]

I agree 100%

[@jpdj2715]

The Hague, "Den Haag" - short for 's Gravenhage and in that the 's is short for "des". Interesting to learn that it has this education appeal court something. Seaside town - yes. But there's more. The ceremonial capital of the Netherlands is Amsterdam, but the see of government and parliament is in the Hague. Imagine that New York would be the ceremonial capital of the USA and Washington, DC, the see of government (which probably reflects reality in the USA and now imagine the Dutch have formalized something like that). Internationally, The Hague is also the see of the International Court of Justice, the Permanent Court of Arbitration, The Hague Academy of International Law and the Peace Palace Library - housed in the Peace Palace complex. People suspected of war crimes have been tried there, for instance.

[@kelvinmulder]

Congratulations! Very nicely done. If you would like to realy know something about the fundaments of the Netherlands, check in on the 80 year war and maybe Michiel de Ruijter. It can be very interesting.

[@rudolffabrie3233]

Latin and/or Greek are not required for university here.

[@michellezevenaar]

The university and international students problem is that the university's are for profit schools so they just care about buts in seats. They do absolutely care about the quality of the education and that students are capable of graduating at the required level but they don't care were the students come from. There is no connection between school and housing in most schools. Some schools have a limited amount of very expensive housing available on campus but it is rare and relatively new

[@bobgilmour3172]

I hear you. I am from US, and doin’ it (trying to learn Dutch)for 50 years, en ja, it’s tough. Nu woon ik in Caribisch Nederland, en ik moet de taal elke dag spreken. Het is moeilijk, maar wel mogelijk. As to the BS degree stuff from NL, sadly ignorant and typical.

[@TheEvertw]

Well done appealing your rejection. When the universities started incorporating the "Bachelor" degree, this exact point was pointed out, that they were creating two degrees that are called the same but are not the same. The "WO Bachelor" degree is really the first three years of a proper Masters degree, so definitely different from a "regular" Bachelor degree. There is no international equivalent to the "WO Bachelor" degree. However, the Masters program should still be open to even the Dutch people who hold a regular Bachelor degree, which was the whole point for having a Bachelor degree after the first three years of the Masters program. So the principle of rejecting non-WO Bachelors is plain wrong. Anyway, your education + your work experience may well compensate for the discrepancies, which is why there is an appeal procedure.

[@rickrides8352]

Nail on the head. Even with a first-degree teacher education, which is a HBO-Master (after a second-degree, which is a bachelor) I STILL had to do a pre-master. All in the same field.

[@toprob20]

" However, the Masters program should still be open to even the Dutch people who hold a regular Bachelor degree" What are you talking about? Most if not all masters programs ARE open to people who hold a HBO masters degree, you just have to follow a bridging program first. You can't just apply to any masters program with a WO bachelors degree either!

[@fransezomer]

The Dutch government subsidizes University education with around 30.000 euros per student per year for both domestic and foreign students. That is why students pay relatively low tuition fees here in the Netherlands, compared to what you pay in other countries for the quality of education that you receive. ALL Dutch Universities are in the top 200 of the best Universities worldwide, with 4 or 5 Dutch Unis in the top 100. The University of Wageningen is the #1 University in the World for Bio/Agricultural studies. The Dutch appeal to foreign students is now so high that it starts to cause issues with placing native Dutch students and the availability of courses and student housing. The idea behind attracting foreign students to study in the Netherlands is for them to become Dutch citizens and stay in NL. This higher education workforce will repay the Dutch government's investment in the long run through their payments to the taxman and their contribution to the Dutch economy of course. Good for you to get into Uni. This means that you will do the 2-year Master's course? Or do you have to do the full 4 years? Congrats for making it to the course! Greetz from Amsterdam xxx [edit] The distinction between bachelor's degrees is made by the type of higher education one does in NL. There are 2 types of higher education in NL: 1) Academic University Education (W.O.), and 2) University of Applied Sciences (HBO). You can achieve both Bachelor's and Master's degrees in both types of higher education. The difference is that Academic University education is geared towards scientific research, where University of Applied sciences studies are usually more pragmatic in nature. Nursing is educated at a University of Applied Sciences institute, not at an academic institute. 'Nursing Specialist' programs ie. to become a physician's assistant, are Academic University courses. I think what speaks to your advantage is the fact that you have working experience. That counts for much in the academic world. Your selection had nothing to do with the choices you made at age 12. Higher education is open to all people in NL as of the age of 21 regardless of your diplomas.

[@ronaldderooij1774]

The last sentence that higher education is open to all people in NL above 21, I don't think that that is true. You still need HAVO/VWO or equivalent.

[@fransezomer]

@@ronaldderooij1774 No, you need to pass a University entrance test in which your academic skills are tested by the University faculty. Basically it is a VWO level exam. If you are over 21 you can apply to do this test and then apply for a course at the University faculty where you did the test.

[@grewdpastor]

@@fransezomer U bedoelt het Colloquium doctum? ( nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colloquium_doctum ). Dat is uiteindelijk toch wel beperkt.

[@fransezomer]

@@grewdpastor He, laten we elkaar tutoyeren. Ik voel me al zo oud de laatste tijd. :( Precies. Het is zeer waarschijnlijk dat in het WO in de afgelopen 20 jaar veel veranderingen zijn doorgevoerd. Ik studeerde zelf aan de TU Delft... een eeuwigheid geleden dus. Een van mijn eerste vriendinnetjes op de middelbare school miste destijds door het puberen haar laatste jaar Atheneum en na 4 jaar reizen over de hele wereld en teruggekomen in NL, besloot ze toch om zich aan te melden voor een Universitaire studie aan de UU. Zonder diploma's dus. Na wat zelfstudie en bijles, slaagde ze met vrij weinig problemen voor de toelatingsexamen waarna ze binnen 5 jaar haar studie Farmacie afrondde. Ik kan me voorstellen dat niet alle studies, zeker die met een numerus fixus, openstaan voor toelatingstesten. Maar het principe van toelatingstesten zou nog steeds moeten gelden IMO. Er zijn miljoenen redenen en omstandigheden denkbaar voor drop-outs. Leerlingen met ruim voldoende ambitie en capaciteiten om een WO studie succesvol af te ronden. Het zou zonde zijn om dat potentieel niet aan te spreken.

[@grewdpastor]

@@fransezomer Excuus, het was niet de bedoeling om te "irriteren". Ik ben nogal ouderwets en formeel ... en van '49 ;)

[@chubbymoth5810]

Congrats! Sometimes motivation is worth a degree. It would be useful to know Latin, but I guess most terminology is the same. It sometimes pays to be a bit of a Karen. I do however think that the VWO equivalence is more to protect students (and institutes) than exclude. It means it might be quite tough But of you want it that badly, they will take a chance. Whenever you feel you require extra classes, you can often attend those if you ask. Math might be an issue as well, but mainly statistics. Not quite sure what you'll study exactly. Maybe you can talk about the curriculum a bit.

[@ricksambacht6815]

p.s het loon in België ligt ook veel hoger.

[@kimspirit6510]

I think you mean vwo. Vwo is definitely a higher education. People here can’t even just go do a university masters before you have a university bachelor. There is definitely a difference between hbo and wo. And yes at the same time it’s annoying. Especially later in life when you can’t get any funds anymore. This is my own experience.

[@Wielie0305]

You are no guest here. You are living in this country and you are no less or more than someone like me, who was born in this country. You have the same obligations and rights. Discuss things that are on your mind and people agree or they don’t. Either way it’s okay. Jij bent jij… Don’t hold yourself back.

[@kimthegrey]

I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding: because you do not need Latin or Greek to get into university. Housing is a big problem at the moment. Not just for the internationals. In my opinion if you choose to go the Netherlands for education your housing should be your own problem, just like it is for the Dutch student. Yes it would be ideal in that case that if there would be a fair housing market, but that ties in with the larger housing problems the country is having. It is illegal to mandate that the renter is Dutch, but unfortunatelly there are no effective measures taken against those landlords. They also tend to ask way too much rent for student housing than that they are legally allowed to ask....

[@ricksambacht6815]

ik zal het even in het Nederlands schrijven. ze gaan het je zo moeilijk maken omdat ze eigenlijk helemaal niet willen, ze willen geen mensen die kritisch kunnen denken. zou toch maar eens wat meer naar het zuiden kijken, en wel in vlaanderen. super goede universiteiten en ze zoeken daar heel veel verplegend personeel. ook doen ze daar niet zo moelijk en de instroom van verplegend personeel is daar door ook veel makkelijker. denk dat ze zelf met de hooge school al genoeg hebt. en je heb al een bachelor .. informeren kost niets.

[@MartijnHover]

Maybe it helps with a word like "verpleegkundige" to remember that it is a compound word. Try to hyphenate it in your mind: "verpleeg-kundige".

[@BrendonChase_2015]

Hitting the nail on the head re: constructive confrontation. It's simply Dutchies appreciating honesty & being upfront. Speak your mind, focus on the issue at hand while still valuing the person who happens to disagree with you. Life can be so easy ;-) My guess would be that America used to be more like that (parts of it still are probably), before the entertainment industry shaped ppls' behaviour to a large degree, and most certainly before the "positive psychology" movement became an important factor in US culture. Today, so-called "toxic positivity" (i.e. the fear to come across as "judgemental") appears to have become quite a problem in the US. Articles with pretty straightforward titles like "The tyranny of the positive attitude in America" have signalled the effects of a long-standing, but still modern American "tradition" (I'd call it social engineering). A nice read abt the historical background of this nefarious phenomenon would be, "Bright-sided: How the Relentless Promotion of Positive Thinking Has Undermined America" by Barbara Ehrenreich. Ty for another very interesting upload, congrats with your admission and as always, Cheers from Amsterdam!

[@ewoutbuhler5217]

oooh, I like that, gonna remember "toxic positivity". It's sad some people forget to separate the issue and the person. The issue you can disagree on, you can still be friends or at least very respected co-workers. 'm often in meetings with US colleagues and when some controversial new way of working is introduced, I'm alway the one pointing out the risks, yes the opportunities (improvements) but also the threats of changed ways of working. During those meetings there's often very cautious support but after the meeting I'm bombarded with praise on my "speaking up". LOL

[@fiskurtjorn7530]

0:37 Label Lapel. Pronunciation of a new language isn't straightforward. You will get it, don't worry. Another weird thing in Dutch is leaving out spaces between words to make a new word, and the meaning can differ a lot when you get it wrong. Example; At roadworks you can encounter a sign; weg om legging (Gone because of [a] legging) Without spaces, the text is more meaningful wegomlegging (detour)

[@dutchladylover]

First of all: congrats on your admittance. Hope you will have a great time going back to school. About the "honesty" and directness, no worries, it will come, it will grow on you (without you even noticing most likely). Your American friends an relatives will start to notice it and probably point it out eventually. 🤣 Now, I saw that you really miss your burrito's and maybe some other Mexican (street)food. Yeah....that's gonna be an issue I'm afraid. We do have Mexican restaurants in a lot of places but we just aren't raised with Mexican food. So there's not too many places or foodtrucks to get Mexican take out. But.... to maybe ease that pain a bit, Soul to Soul Travels (don't know if you follow them or even heard of them so may as well point them out) are a couple from southern California who moved to Rotterdam about a year ago?! 🤷‍♂ They do a lot of food discovery tasting in their video's as well. So maybe you can get some tips from or via them for some acceptable comfortfood to make you miss the burrito's a bit less..... 👋

[@bramharms72]

Congratulations. I think you may want to talk slower (in dutch), give each syllable some time. These compound words are really small sentences. Treat it like the pace of life, you don't get paid to reach the end of the word any sooner. 🙂

[@Teslacoil333]

Ik denk dat je de nederlandse woorden wat langzamer moet uitspreken...💪👍😎

[@PH61a]

I think you mean VWO in stead of VO. You need VWO to get to university.

[@Daffie02]

⚘🥂

[@Salmiak]

I understand your frustration when it comes to the Dutch education system. I'm a secondary school (middelbare school) teacher here - I used to think that the Dutch system was elitist and feeding into a sense of class, but now that I'm an actual teacher, I can see the benefits of the three -parted system. The problems in my opinion arise when these levels are spread across separate buildings and segregate the children. Ironically, I work at a gymnasium (solely VWO with Latin an Greek). But I feel like we (the teachers) make a huge effort to keep the children integrated in the actual world. When it comes to HBO and WO universities, I think that the benefits and differences of each are only clear when you've lived here for a while, but I do think that the whole "Bachelors equivalent" thing is annoying and needlessly complex for expats.

[@SetsunaRatsetsu]

lol @0:39...with subtitle on, verpleegkundige get translated into play comedy ^^

[@basvanderwerff2725]

den haag stil houses the international court of justice (and our gouverment)

[@emilychambers6700]

Big sistaaaa in the house

[@jpdj2715]

Part of the Dutch live in the so-called "harmony model" where you are not allowed to disagree and dispute. That will be context specific, though. In relationships, e.g. in families, this leads to people communicating disagreements indirectly (like in gossip), because head-on is not appreciated. Well, that leads to a lot of misunderstanding and may simmer on for a couple years and then the conflict bomb explodes to a point where even family relations break up. The conflict model of just speaking out - not to hurt other people but to compare different insights - is a simple way to prevent escalations in the longer term. It also prevents investing energy in relations that will not work out in the longer term because a mismatch is felt early on. This may follow regional lines in the NL, by the way. It's also interesting to see how something that is rather neutral in English like "to discuss" can have a different meaning to Spanish/Latino people who may think that "let's discuss subject X" means that you propose to have (verbal) fight.

[@Guggel1966]

Try speaking Dutch, it might help you in several ways.... (But I like your channel, don't get me wrong)

[@robertboender5816]

Way you go girl :-) Think you'll do fine. And the best way to learn Dutch is to stop talking English.

[@Jila_Tana]

I can tell you have trouble pronouncing the 2 G's in 'verpleegkundige'. You are probably aware that those g's are not pronounced by the voice, but the throat. Try to whisper the whole word, it will give you an idea what it is, that we do. I bet any Dutch can understand you when you whisper it.

[@McNessie101]

Hi, I’m Gary. I’m Scottish and have been living in NL for over 30 years. I’m a trained teacher and I speak fluent Dutch. Let me know if you want to do some video calls to help with your Dutch....

[@ypey1]

Complaining is part of the inburgering. Complain if you wanna be dutch, its mandatory

[@johnveerkamp1501]

And Dutch is zo close to ENGELS

[@toprob20]

What nonsense. The reason you weren't accepted was because your degree is equal to a HBO bachelors degree and you need a WO bachelors degree to be accepted for a masters program. You always have to do a bridging program because HBO programs are not sufficient to prepare you for a scientific masters. It's not that the university "misses out on talent" or something because they're unfair towards foreigners. It's that your prior education was deemed insufficient and you where rejected for the school's and your own best interests. Bullying yourself into an education you're not ready for not only reduces the chances of your success it also wastes the resources of the the institution and because they're all "progressive" 'n shit they're not gonna refuse you if you complain. But realistically you should've informed yourself on how things work and apply for a bridging program that would've prepared you better. Because unlike in the US higher education is a serious thing here and it has a serious purpose, especially the study of medicine. It is an institution that serves society, that's why a lot of money is invested into it from the community. It's not a business, it's not your own risk it's a thoroughly considered and well regulated system that services society. You where not rejected because they don't understand foreign education, they do (very well) and the standards they set are based on a lot of contemplation and experience. Nothing you have said negates this and they've made a mistake in accepting you anyway. Now you've been put above all those people who got their HBO degree and who have to go through a bridging program (like you should have) while you're almost certainly less qualified than they are... congratulations!

[@marcusfranconium3392]

Foreign students take up housing of dutch citizens, Why should a foreigner life in a home that should be ocupied by a native dutch family . So where is the discrimination in that . THe netherlands over populated highest density of people per km2 . in europe ( not counting city states ) Enviromental problems No new houses can be build farmers must down size. and all of 30 % of foreigners taking up space poluting the air causing huge energy shortages and poluting the enviroment. You kick out all these useless foreigners and we would have no enviromental problems,

[@marcusfranconium3392]

@Jan Folkersma Wanneer vertrek je .of ben je een smerige groen links denk mongool. dat verklaart alles.

[@ewoutbuhler5217]

I cannot even start counting all the facual errors and misconceptions in your statements. Ellen was talking about the US moving 50-100 years back in time, but your little gem of a text really tops it. I have only one reply: The Netherlands is not an island.

[@marcusfranconium3392]

@@ewoutbuhler5217 And a place that is over crowded in such a way , that 130.000 new homes need to be build and 100.000 are destined for imigrants and foreigners. where every home is a cut back of farmers and life stocks .All do to co emissions. And idiots like your self invited every stinking piece of garbage to ad to the polution levels . Your a disgusting piece of toe fungus,

[@pietdegeling4696]

You are a racist

[@Beun007]

Here is a Dutch lesson from me: JEUKT JOUW JEUKERIGE NEUS ZOALS MIJN JEUKERIGE NEUS JEUKT! (really fast!) Good luck! LOL!!!

[@marcovtjev]

From what I remember of my school days, there is no Latin or Greek required for any medical related degree in the NL. Actually the only thing that L or G are required for, is to teach those languages. For medical and biology related studies, Latin is considered a nice to have help, but you can do without. For medical studies, not even Chemistry at the highest level (4 years) is required, but that one is actually _strongly_ recommended. (p.s. there are earthquakes in the NL, see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Roermond_earthquake)

[@ewoutbuhler5217]

If you want to study for example medicine on university, straight from high school, you will need VWO with certain profile, they are technical (biology, chemistry, physics) oriented. If you are doing triage after a Dutch earthquake, any of them that happened the last 2000 years as far as known, you will have a very quiet job. Let's hope it stays that way. The 1953 flood example was much more applicable to NL

[@marcovtjev]

@@ewoutbuhler5217 Could be. In my time universities could only pick two mandatory subjects in the profile. And yeah, the Roermond earthquake was not really an triaging event.

[@grewdpastor]

That was definitely still the case when I went to University (in 1968): Latin was required for the admission to the Faculty of Medical Sciences. Students who did the HBS had to follow a separate course to fill in the knowledge gap ;) To be fair: most of the textbooks in those days were in German (and French!!), the minority was in English. Anatomy books used the Latin form to describe the anatomical structures.

[@Rob2]

What we in the Netherlands (Limburg, Groningen) consider to be earthquakes and a disastrous event, is daily occurrence in many other parts of the world... What she refers to as earthquake would be at least a 6.5 magnitude event, one that collapses many buildings and brings in a lot of casualties. Not those minor tremors that we have here (and that cause damage to old buildings not built to be earthquake resistant)

[@enricio]

You're wonderful. (I say as a Dutch guy). 🦚