"I'm Tired of Losing to Leo" (Analysis)

[@Hotashi]

apparently normal grab range chars cannot punish zweite on ib. nago brain

[@Cressx]

Its a 50/50 for most characters - If you IB Zweit, throw loses to Leo backdash... but you can mash out with a fast button. If you try mashing and Leo stays in, he can counter hit you. I personally don't think it is worth the risk to punish since Leo blows you up on counter hit and a dinky 5-6F mash punish wouldn't hurt Leo as much.

[@KachiAT]

@@Cressx highly depends on character conversion. HH or Ram get full punish, Jack-O gets minion out, etc But if your character squishy and doesn't get much from P mash, probably not a good idea.

[@Cressx]

2:08 - Leo main here: You don't always want to grab an IB-ed Zweit Leo is +2 so if he backdashes (which the Leo did in this vid), you whiff throw... and unless you got meter to RC, thats a punish for Leo

[@Drawfill]

Can't you just grab it while hes crossing up instead of waiting for a block? Thats what I do anyway with these kinds of specials.. (leo zwei, millia's mirazh, HC barrel roll, chip alpha blade, etc..)

[@Cressx]

@@Drawfill Sure you can grab it if you are ready for it, but Leo puts on a heavy mental stack with the amount of options he has. Also there is a frame or 2 where throw will whiff if badly timed. Fast RC into Zweit is hard for a lot of people to react to like in the vid.

[@Drawfill]

​@@Cressx Idk, its easier for me to grab zwei then it is to IB it. I've drilled "Leo match-up tutorial 1" so much in mission mode, grabbing instead of blocking is just what I do now. Its almost like pressing 6P to anti-air. Might be a bad habit but idk, it works for me I guess.

[@nekudarkenxRikuxXxda]

I'd say as someone who struggles greatly with the Leo matchup, the immense respect just comes from not wanting to do anything that unluckily leads to backturn snowballing. Don't want to press any buttons just in case he 2Ds you from 1 mile away. A round you think you can win just turn into a fucking nightmare as soon as that bt overhead hits and don't even get me started on when he has positive

[@nekudarkenxRikuxXxda]

Personally when I fight him it feels like I have to deal with the amount of mental stack I have to deal with when being pressured by Zato or Bridget but its there the entire game and not when I'm just in the corner

[@grantm.5975]

@@nekudarkenxRikuxXxda one of the reasons Hotashi has an easier time with Leo mix (besides his knowledge and experience) is his blatant lack of respect. Everything from abare to soft knockdown wake up supers, he is not a fan and he makes sure to let Razzo and others know lmao

[@nekudarkenxRikuxXxda]

@@grantm.5975 yeah this waa pre nerf nago so he waa completely in his right to not respect his opponents cause if he caught them slipping they were dead and if they caught him slipping he could still pull off 2 more risk attempts before death

[@HaveYouTriedGuillotines]

As someone who plays Leo, I'm gonna weigh in on this. 1:13 Hard disagree. Respect isn't the problem here. What they did afterwards is the problem. There's about a half dozen ways Ram could have respected the Leo, but then continued pressure afterwards (BRC being one of them)... They simply hesitated too much. Let me add a preface to this, first: Leo has trouble countering burst, so most Leo players learn to play around getting bursted. The result of this is a Leo player will generally start charging DP the moment they see the burst animation, and wont stop until things become completely neutral again, or they're forced to give up their charge. ...And remember, Leo has a bar of meter here, too. The Ram was afraid that if she started hitting buttons after the throw tech, she'd trade with a DP... And Leo, with meter, could potentially end the round. That is valid. You could see Leo already down backing, brawling was risky here. What happened is she made a half bad but not completely bad guess, and then failed to block a sweep- The Leo dashed in to extend the sweep, meaning on block he would have been very negative and close enough to eat a small block string or combo. Had she simply blocked low, she probably would have won the round. ...She could have also just started mashing super the moment Leo started moving again, but she'd probably need to do that on prediction. Which isn't a problem giving how much of a war crime Ram's super is. It's safe at most ranges, so unless she whiffed it completely... This is a situation where you might wanna put on your Nikes and "Just do it." Leo has to stop all his aggression if Ram has meter, but you have to make sure he knows you *will* super him, else he has no reason to fear it.

[@HaveYouTriedGuillotines]

I agree on your note of not being belligerent enough, though. That seems to be a reoccurring issue. That and not burning meter to create unwinnable situations. This Ram player seems to think you should save meter for... I don't even know what. No. Nonono. Ram is actually similar to Leo in the sense that one of her best uses of meter is to burn it while you're on offense to convert stray hits into your win condition, or just keep your pressure going.

[@HaveYouTriedGuillotines]

10:20 Wouldn't recommend backdashing this in the corner. It's so slow that it might actually catch your recovery. It's similar to the way Leo's command grab will catch backdash from certain ranges midscreen, even though it looks like it should whiff. Jab or throw, depending on situation. Especially throw. 2F startup and it beats most of Leo's options when he's that close. Especially if Leo keeps dashing up in between bt.5k. If you see a Leo doing that, either he knows you aren't going to throw, and is engaging in psychological warfare, or he's asking to be thrown.

[@kevinjamesmith]

I see where you're coming from, but I think Hotashi is right about the 5s challenge after throw break. Ram's 5s->5h is just too good not to use in this situation, where Leo is in corner and she has all the other advantages he talks about.

[@sylascole5254]

@@HaveYouTriedGuillotines I think they're sitting on meter for 214h RC and then using the other 50 for wall break? Its something I've seen often enough online as well that it makes me think it might just be common in the ram player hive mind.

[@HaveYouTriedGuillotines]

@@sylascole5254 Yeah, that's probably what it is. But when your opponent is so low on life that one clean hit into a basic combo wins the round, you're better served just using the meter to remove some of your opponent's options, or to extend your pressure or mix.

[@alo2130]

To be fair, being put on defense vs Leo is always gonna suck cause of the mental stack of the backturn options and how many of them are safe. At first jumping guard works just to have a general idea of how the Leo player approaches the offense and from there the player really needs to not respect the options pretty much: mash, attempt the grab, gotta do something to get out of the blender cause it is worth it. You will get hit for sure but one gotta be more responsive. Very good analysis

[@thisistherun4015]

I feel like I have the same shortcomings in terms of tempo right now, because I fear the wild streak of other players. It was great to see what it looks like for other players and hear your input.

[@pilsenenjoyer]

I fear the DP.

[@thisistherun4015]

@@pilsenenjoyer Myself, I fear moves like Leo's sweep that beat lows or high attacks and whatnot. I'm used to trusting speed advantages and that layer has me second guessing my opportunities.

[@pilsenenjoyer]

@@thisistherun4015 Oh yeah, his sweep is super ignorant, it beats everything.

[@Kuronoichig01]

Do this with I-no vs baiken

[@fallonrishiva7841]

Oh not losing to Leo, that's easy, just make sure he never back turns. Ever. If he does, **cry**

[@ThegreenWulf2]

this video gave so much inspiration to go even more ungah with leo xD

[@Kolarite]

Love these breakdown videos

[@UNLEASHEDUEASHEDSE]

Ur editor is so good lmao

[@WhiteKnuckleRide512]

Who edits?

[@CharlesPlaine]

@@WhiteKnuckleRide512 Seylor Twift 13:22

[@josecanovasmartinez1133]

One question: why avoiding leo shimmies is easy? Do you have to change the OS over time? Like first OS with throw and then with jump or mash?

[@pilsenenjoyer]

Educational.

[@Type06_]

That jungle music tho

[@yuurou7927]

The music choice is both respect and disrespect at its finest.

[@VileLasagna]

ooohhh.... need one of these for how do I deal with Zato as Potemkin. Got wrecked 0-5 the other day. The game thought that was so embarrassing it dropped me to floor 7 even though I'd been winning all night

[@HellecticMojo]

If you are a floor 8/7 resident, I'm assuming that you are losing to frog/drills. Generally as a rule of thumb, slidehead proactively. unless they use drills, slidehead will stuff most neutral interactions with Zato on the ground. Just 6p when they jump. Zato has a hard time faking out air attacks since he doesn't have an actual airdash. On pressure, just be patient and block low and just block high on reaction for dust overhead. There are more fancy mixups that Zato can do, but I doubt you are seeing them on floor 8. Don't get discouraged if you get grabbed by damned fang. Sure, it gives him full Eddie meter and run the pressure again, but it beats getting hit by a full conversion and still getting pressured because he wallbreaks you with sun void.

[@VileLasagna]

@@HellecticMojo Slidehead does do miracles, for sure. Thing to always keep in mind when Zato brings out Eddie carelessly. There was a severe lack of 6P from my part, for sure, and I messed my blocking bad at times. But watching the footage back I think a very big problem that I can address somewhat punctually is that I misused Hammerfall a lot and paid for it. Ended up uploading the set in case anyone's curious, or just want to see a Potemkin getting wrecked for the schadenfreude, lol kzbin.info/www/bejne/rl6XqKF9bLWAeZI

[@krendo11]

isnt the crossup plus on block? using Just Defense could be worse i think, backdash the crossup is the best option in my opinion

[@gerbilios9902]

its reactable so you can throw while Leo is crossing over

[@Pandaman64]

If you ib it, even though Leo is plus there's a gap between it and 5k. So you can squeeze in a grab. Leo doesn't have to worry about this on normal block

[@BHS289]

TIL the guard break move is jumpable, what?

[@boredomkiller99]

29 frame start up so it is pretty slow.

[@Allothersweretakenn]

Show this vid to LK that’s exactly right most ppl biggest Leo problem is making him SEEM like he way better than he’ is

[@skiff3714]

Favorite kind of vid 🙏

[@hylanderOP]

-10 DKP?! Don't tell me you played wow back in the day lol.

[@XeannaSeven]

W vid

[@Mrkrillis]

early?!?!?!

[@synthesize9068]

This is ironic because Leo is one of my most won matchups. Leo players usually lose on offense in his regular stance. I definitely autopilot grab when i see H Zweit dash effects on the screen and usually punish S Zweit when blocked. Funny how one of the best players in the world is struggling so terribly against him

[@rara_rari]

are you 16 years old

[@boredomkiller99]

Will first off are you fighting pro Leo players? More so then other characters the difference between a pro and non-pro Leo player is pretty high. Pro Leo player are less likely to use H Zweit in situations where people can grab. Likewise Better Leo players are not likely to use A Zweit without meter.

[@synthesize9068]

@@rara_rari I hope you didnt misinterpret my comment considering what you just said. Im not calling Leo easy to beat or not good. I simply stated that its ironic that SQ, skilled and renowned player is struggling against Leo. I do not know what godly Leos SQ is fighting but from my experience i usually wash leos. Sorry if that came off as mean or disrespecting SQ.

[@rara_rari]

@@synthesize9068 Ah sorry, my bad, I definitely read it in a way more arrogant way. Just like in sports, there’s a lot of people watching pros lose to someone and going “what a dumbass, I could beat them easily”.