I Tried to Fix Your Biggest Concern with Smooth Triangle Waves

[@alisongracemusic]

the way that you can change the volume of the triangle channel (at least, to about halfway volume) is by changing the delta counter on the DPCM channel. this works due to an error in the way the DPCM and triangle channels are mixed together. however, the reason almost nobody uses this is because when you change the delta counter, it makes a tiny little pop sound, the sound getting louder the bigger the difference between the previous and changed delta counter is. some people have used this smartly (such as nobou uematsu for final fantasy 3) by using the clicks as a sort of percussion, but for the most part, changing the delta counter isnt something most like to do, unless its at the very start of a song.

[@KYLXBN]

Awesome explanation! Thanks, I didn't know the technical details on how that works. Thanks for the example, too!

[@alisongracemusic]

@@KYLXBN of course, no problem! great video, by the way

[@doopdee]

@@KYLXBN I may be wrong about this, but when exporting the nsf of super mario bros into famitracker the z effect was used on the dpcm channel, and the z effect basically lets you change the delta counter. In this case, the delta counter was being set to 48, quieting the triangle wave a little bit. Maybe Koji Kondo set it to that on purpose because with the delta counter at 0 the triangle wave was too loud? No idea. If so, this is an early example of this technique being used.

[@cubeislife1675]

I really like the conclusions you came to. I didn't realize that a lot of the retro music I was listening to sounded too loud or too quiet not because of the music, but because of my own ears. I really liked the changes to the triangle wave you did.

[@KYLXBN]

Thank you!

[@nicco1690]

reguarding 4:40: While you can change the offset of the APU2 DC bias/delta counter to lower the volume of the triangle wave (to a minimum of about 50%), it also lowers the volume of the noise channel because the noise, triangle, and DPCM are grouped together as APU2 in the 2A03/2A07. It also resets the delta counter when you play a DPCM or 7-bit sample on most NES drivers that support those. And lastly, and perhaps the best reason not to use this, it makes a very audible click when you change the volume by a big amount, which is why fadeouts and decays are what this is normally used for. Famitracker doesn't have a macro for this, but you can use Zxx to change APU2's volume however you like.

[@KYLXBN]

Thank you very much for the detailed explanation, and even a method on how to actually use it! So I guess it all comes down to how the 2A03 mixes the channels... Really interesting stuff! But I guess that was not intended to be an actual volume control method by the chip developers. More like an unintended side effect, I guess?

[@nicco1690]

@@KYLXBN yep! I'd imagine the mixing was probably another cost-cutting measure, given that the 2A03 is also the CPU for the NES (again, to save costs, so that Ricoh wouldn't have to manufacture 2 chips.) Plenty of chips from this era have unintended side effects for cost cutting measures since the industry for sound chips was relatively new, so I find it fascinating to research and discover these quirks, and possibly use them for myself. (glares at the SID 6581)

[@KYLXBN]

@@nicco1690 Makes me remember that the 6581's sample playback capabilities is really an unintended feature XD Really clever trick by the sound programmers back then. The 8580 even fixed the flaw which made samples really quiet.

[@nicco1690]

@@KYLXBN But now there are also methods of playing samples on the 8580, so Commodore really didn't do a very good job if they wanted to patch samples out. However, I don't think patching the samples out was something that they intended, or even knew that people were doing, as the SID's creator, Bob Yannes, stated that he didn't know what people did with the SID chip after the C64's release in an interview once.

[@redstrider6814]

Me listening to it through my crappy phone speakers: hmm yes great bass

[@naptastic]

It's interesting to see the shape of the triangle wave change with frequency. The higher notes look like they are made of perfectly straight lines. The lower notes all look like they're made of curves. This is consistent with a selective increase in bass energy if the note is lower. Good work! It sounds amazing!

[@ltva8781]

This is because a highpass filter applied to triangle wave. It is made in emulator to simulate stray capacity and inductivity of circuits inside the console and TV audio section you connected your console to

[@g_ato3337]

I struggle to understand the technical part of sound, but is definitely an improvement! Great job!

[@KYLXBN]

Really sorry for that. I am not really good at explaining things, but I hope the end result was noticeable for you!

[@g_ato3337]

@@KYLXBN it was!!

[@Qbot10]

4:40 The volume of the triangle channel can be reduced by as much as half by incrementing the delta counter (zxx in famitracker). There are a couple reasons this technique isn't widely used: 1- It basically doesn't work if you want your song to use samples 2- Unless the volume change is very gradual, there is an audible and unpleasant clicking noise 3-This also affects the noise channel, albeit not as noticeably Still, if your song has no samples, there are definitely situations in which it's a useful tool to have, and I agree its underused. (On that note, I've often wondered if a specially made sample could be used to change the delta counter smoothly and quickly. If such a thing is possible it would greatly raise the viability of this technique. Something to think about.)

[@KYLXBN]

That is a very interesting idea! I gotta test that out... We can make samples that go from max to minimum, minimum to max, or even halfway variants--if that works (which technically, I think it should), that would really help the triangle channel add some emotion to its notes.

[@TakuikaNinja]

There's been a few instances where samples are used to smoothly change the delta counter. The MMC5 LotR demo for FamiTracker does this, and I've used its samples in a few of my covers.

[@shalpp]

The smooth triangles sound too much like sine waves so this is a neat change

[@KYLXBN]

Indeed, a triangle wave will sound like a sine wave because it is a crude representation of a sine wave :) Remove the harmonics (the stairsteps) and it will really get a lot closer to a sine wave.

[@shalpp]

@@KYLXBN I guess I'm just too acclimated to the squarangle waves lol

[@KYLXBN]

@@shalpp No worries, we all are! :)

[@Mnnvint]

@@KYLXBN That's an idea, how about replacing the triangle wave in the sid with simply a sine wave? Sacrilege of course, but it would be interesting to hear what it would sound like.

[@ssg-eggunner]

@@Mnnvint just use the low/band pass filter on the triangle Done

[@12...]

i would focus less on the shape of the waves and more on the actual frequencies and harmonics. *from my understanding* (it's been a while since i was into this though): the way an instrument sounds is mainly defined by the harmonics (overtones) the "jagged" triangle wave is better described as a triangle wave plus a quieter sawtooth wave at 32x the base frequency. both of these have their own harmonics, so the result is something like: • the base frequency • some weak overtones at 3x, 5x, 7x, etc. - the triangle's overtones • an overtone at 32x (ie +5 octaves) - the sawtooth "steps" • more overtones, at 32*2x, 32*3x, 32*4x, etc. - the sawtooth's overtones (note: all of these overtones have no phase offset)

[@sunscraper1]

I think he was going for what was intended for the sound chip, because I doubt that the 2A03 has a jagged triangle wave on purpose

[@clinkus]

mmmmmm super smooth bass boosted 2a03...

[@KYLXBN]

I guess you can call it bass boosted!

[@Azotansodu2137]

Keep up great job. I appreciate your work and music you improve :)

[@KYLXBN]

It's all thanks to the chiptune composers who do their awesome work :)

[@ltva8781]

What you did may actually be called volume key scaling, when louder notes are played with less amplitude so "perceived" volume stays the same. I think similar setting can be found in FM synthesis DAW plugins or even in old Yamaha FM synthesizers. In addition to "leveling" the volume, this volume correction can be used on FM operators that are modulating other operators, thus making higher notes' wave to have quieter harmonics (quieter relative to base frequency amplitude). This can be used to achieve more accurate real instruments sound synthesis, and that's why YM2612 or similar chips FM patches which are made to resemble real instruments (e.g. piano) can sound off when used on a big range (usually more than 2 octaves or whatever). Sadly, YM2612 and such don't have the automatic function for this, although you can create different instruments for different frequency ranges. By the way, the sort of exponential formula you showed for triangle channel volume correction is actually very close to what I used while coding my volume key scaling implementation (my formula is longer, more spaghetti and has a coefficient that lets you adjust the steepness of volume suppression, so 0xFF means that you go an octave up and the wave is almost inaudible, 0x20 is roughly what I see in the end of this video). P.S. There actually exists envelope key scaling, it's when your envelope parts are shorter when note is higher. Also useful for more faithful real instruments synthesis (e.g. piano).

[@Unconventional03]

I guess this is the reason Beepbox and its mods have a larger amplitude at lower ranges and lower amplitude at higher ranges. (Volume key scaling)

[@TyphinHoofbun]

At about 4:30, I caught the background music. Had to see if I could match it before I looked at the spoilers in the description, and yeah, Space Debris. I'm a simple derp, I hear Space Debris, I click thumbs up. ^_^

[@KYLXBN]

Awesome Amiga space music!

[@Wagoo]

@@KYLXBN I hope you've heard the original version of "Nearly There", though - A Prehistoric Tale :)

[@Mentalbox52]

If I'm not mistaken there is a hardware loophole that gives you some volume control to the triangle wave, regardless I think this was the best way to handle it. Awesome work!

[@Omig12]

Excellent work on this one too

[@KYLXBN]

Thank you, it may not be perfect but I try my best!

[@Inferno-MT4]

Sounds absolutely wonderful.

[@rel1stone121]

Have to say I enjoy the making of the perfect Nes chip Adventure, it makes me wonder what else can be done.

[@matthewbullion7935]

Great stuff! I find the idea of playing around with the SNES soundchip as blasphemy ridiculous personally. Also my ears are a lot more sensitive to bass than others (and I have good speakers) so the low bass tones weren't a problem to me before. I didn't even notice they were "low". But I can still dig it if the louder bass tones makes other people happier. I can just tone down the volume if the bass gets too loud anyways without really sacrificing much. Hope to see more applications of this chip mod soon!

[@logancontracier7125]

5:26 the rats nest of else if statements. Idk if this is just how sound programming works but I think there is a more optimized solution to else if rats nests.

[@MrWho-iw6mj]

I would like to contribute to the conversation regarding audio equipment. I am actually using the Aftershok headphones displayed in the video, and I noted that I could hear the bass... if I really strained my ear and stuffed the vibrating parts of the headphones IN my ear. On the topic of the bass, I wanted to ask a few questions. In specifically development, is there a way to utilize both waves in one device. I thought of games like The Legend of Zelda: Oracle of Ages (Seasons, too, but in my play, I feel it applies more to Ages). In caves, you can feel the buzz of the triangle wave in a very unique way, where the buzz kind of gives the cave a hollow and echo-y feel, which was really cool for ambience. But in certain other tracks, the hollowness just made me all the more aware that this is a GBC title. Or what if you use an item that uses a bass sound effect (a fictional megaton hammer, for example. Humor me), but the track uses bass too? Look, I'm not an audio guy. I sure want to be, but I'm no specialist. If there's a discrepancy with what I am proposing, I would be flattered if you took me seriously enough to point it out. On the topic of the video itself. I really liked the format and the accessibility of it; it was quite similar to the video which brought me to this channel (the refined triangle wave). It was educational, entertaining, and engaging, and I personally would enjoy it if you did more like it Best regards, and thank you for your time!

[@レイ素]

日本語字幕付きはガチでありがたい

[@KYLXBN]

役に立てて嬉しいです！

[@JohnPaulBuce]

A Prehistoric Tale

[@OMundodosRetroGames]

Have you ever wondered how the NES would sound if the triangle channel produced other types of waves? I think Triangle and Sine are not good to bass, as they're difficult to hear, but I always imagined it being a Square wave or a proper bass wave, but I think that's not possible to do :(

[@ssg-eggunner]

Imagine if the NES/FC's 2A03 wavetable channel got finished instead of having a hardcoded triangle with no volume control

[@giserson2]

Cool change, but I think you went a bit overboard with the level of amplification. The resulting audio has the triangle wave overpowering the other channels. It feels a bit like listening to some super bassy headphones.

[@PlaylistWatching1234]

You were right the first time imo ☺️

[@CarlosSilva-bh4bi]

The musical example in the end is wild... What song is that?

[@tefrikeo]

It would be interesting to make a comparison with A Link to the Past, (GBA) to find out if they modified the melody, in relation to the SNES version and sorry if my wording is wrong, I use a translator.

[@MatthewHolevinski]

when you posted the picture of the aftershokz were you implying they won't let you hear lower frequencies? I just tested mine and I can hear 30hz just fine and i'm 40 years old. I can hear the 10 and 20hz, but it sounds kind of garbled, and 40hz is clear as a bell like regular audio. Actually I take that back I can hear 20hz just fine at -3db, but to be fair it's hard to tell the difference between it and my tinnitus 😄

[@TheOriginalCactis]

When I saw this update to your original video I thought you were going to go the psychoacoustic route, nicely explained here kzbin.info/www/bejne/enatdoWva72lpKs Would be interesting to see what the tunes sound like with some subharmonics added to the low frequency triangle wave. Great job on your videos.

[@KYLXBN]

That is indeed a very effective method as harmonics (like the stairsteps on the NES triangle wave) guides our ears to hear the base note better. However, if we removed the stairsteps, but added harmonics, then we're back to our first problem-it's not a pure triangle wave. So I decided to go on a different way :) Thank you very much for the suggestion though!

[@Nikki-2981]

git link is nonfunctional

[@koyvon4455]

my sonos is making triangle bass

[@Albergarri788]

I can even hear it through my mobile speakers!

[@KYLXBN]

Your phone has nice speakers! :D I have a Note20 Ultra but I haven't tested it yet.

[@Albergarri788]

@@KYLXBN Mine is a Galaxy A72

[@BakaTheSussy]

Just add more steps (32 steps)

[@gravious]

[@tevo4555]

0.75 speed