ICF Floor Systems : How to Install Open Web Joists on an ICF Wall Using Lavann Hanger's

[@ScottishNSRailFan]

I have a three storey in Palm Beach County, using ICF, for the walls, floors and roof. Hurricanes, not a concern, when we are away on vacation.

[@uptokode]

Peace of mind!

[@byronlaw6724]

It's interesting to see photos of disaster aftermaths where there are rows of homes destroyed and in the middle of the destruction there is a single home still standing no problem...Huh, an ICF home. Cool.

[@michelefritts6953]

Photos??

[@joed837]

Hey Kode, not sure if you've touched on this but around 6:50 you show the beam in the basement and it's LVL, do you have an extended top cord on those floor trusses? Do you like this system over steel ibeam with trusses sitting on top? I am starting my ICF build in spring 2022 and am looking for some last min fine details. Thanks in advance, your videos are what swayed me to build ICF! Thanks again from SW Ontario

[@JMaxwell1000]

Excellent presentation! Concrete / ICF or the Hambro/iSpan types are a MUST for people who live in F5 tornado areas. When the roof is gone, there's no protection left. Concrete roofs offer the best protection to the inhabitants.

[@uptokode]

I totally agree

[@squeekhobby4571]

Awesome stuff. Saw folks using hangers with screws to hold wood beam across the wall. You have shown a cool technique

[@uptokode]

Thank you

[@Penny-bt4gc]

We are finally starting our ICF house this month.

[@uptokode]

Very very good! Email me pics throughout and I’ll include you in a fan feature film. [e-mail]. All the best! And email if you have questions

[@rotaxrider]

So are those floor trusses offset 1 1/2 inches in the hanger to accept the 2x4 rim joist nailer for the sub floor? Is that what they call a ribbon cut? You cut that in the field on the floor truss to accept the 2x4?

[@PesarTarofi]

So all electrical work in this house is going to be surface mounted?

[@uptokode]

Nope. They will trench the wire into the foam with a router or electric chainsaw. Stuff the wire in and away you go.

[@michelefritts6953]

Does the rebar go in horizontally or vertically or both? Can you just do vertical as long as the cement has the fiber mixed in?

[@uptokode]

Rebar goes both way. Horizontal in each row of ICF block. Offset each row so that the verticals drop in after and sit into position and don’t fall against the foam. Hard to explain but the ties are designed for this. For below grade I wouldn’t recommend the fibre mesh. Not to say you can’t use it but you need a fair bit to replace the rebar. PLUS vertical rebar is almost more important than horizontal in a backfill situation

[@michelefritts6953]

@@uptokode Yes, that is my understanding. So it would be a major problem if they don’t have horizontal rebar then?

[@michelefritts6953]

@@uptokode We had a builder do our first floor walls with a fiber mesh mix, and vertical rebar. He has since walked off the job so we need to see if that is sufficient to keep going with the second floor. Thanks for your advice!!

[@uptokode]

I suspect so. If you are concerned try to find out how much mesh was in the mix. Then give that info to a structural engineer for verification. They will also need backfill height.

[@uptokode]

Sorry to hear about them walking off !!

[@frauleingermany4435]

So where do you plan the cold joints for the different pours? Are the cold joints a little weaker or can they leek?

[@sebastiantevel898]

Thank you for explaining all this clearly in details for everyone to understand. I wanted to ask if you have ever used these Lavann/Watkins hangers with steel joists as iSpan, C Joist or similar. I would like to use this combination on an incoming project, also laying structural concrete subfloor panels over the joists.

[@uptokode]

I have not used the hangers in that application before. I’m sure load wise it’s no issue. You probably need to verify how to secure it.

[@sebastiantevel898]

@@uptokode Thank you for answering. I have not gone more in depth researching, but it seems that is possible to use screws and fill the space inside the C joist with lumber as it is done with I Joists.

[@cindyrobinson1549]

Can you provide a link to buy these?

[@uptokode]

Google Watkins ICF hanger. Use promo code UPTOKODE2020 for a discount

[@anthonyking7849]

Is thermal bridging an issue? Looks like you are bypassing half of your insulation. May be a problem for passive house.

[@uptokode]

I could show you infrared images of the ICF wall with those hangers. Very minimal thermal bridging because we still have continuous insulation on the exterior. Email me if you want photos. [e-mail]. ICF, in my mind, is ideal for passive house. Very air tight. I’ve achieved 0.42ACH and 0.23ACH with virtually no effort. It’s very easy to add insulation to an ICF wall (I have videos on all this) without adding labour.

[@flintbrann6555]

ICF blocks settle down when they are being filled so how do you account for that in your FF heights?

[@uptokode]

You could account for 1/4 to 3/8 inch. I’ve never actually calculated the drop. Been using Nudura for a few years and they settle less because the snap ties actually clip together so it add more support.

[@ralphballtripii9423]

Where can you buy those joist hangers

[@uptokode]

Check out Watkins hangers. They are equivalent

[@Dan_Hall]

Who do you recc? to do a full engineered house plans (Full walkout basement and second floor ICF, plumbing, electrical, etc) for a custom home? Building in Montana. I know what I want and what It looks like. Just need someone (architect) familiar with ICF to do the full plans for the builders. Also, do you know of a quality ICF builder in Montana? Thanks !!!

[@kenjackson4177]

Why not use the ICF forms that buck out to form a ledge platform the sit the joists on?

[@uptokode]

I believe you are referring to the brick ledge ICF blocks. I don’t use that method mostly because my heights are always custom and would rarely meet that height. It is a good idea though if it works for you.

[@Joshua79C]

@@uptokode Brick ledge are not really made for such and if you look up Fox Block Curb Block, that system is far better than brick ledge, as curb block is what Ken is likely referring to.

[@approots]

@@Joshua79C A brick ledge will work if the resulting slope below is acceptable - like in a crawl space. The curb block won't work if continuing above the joists with icfs and also you lose the interior insulation. A width transition in combination with a taper block could work but the transition needs to be 4" (like going from 10" foundation block to 6" wall block).

[@kenjackson4177]

@@Joshua79C Thanks for the comments, I did some more research on the blocks, I believe the brick ledge block “should” work. Remember it’s placed reversed so the ledge is on the interior. The the remaining ICF block continues on up, no change in wall dimensions. The ledge looks to be a good 4 inches to rest you rim joist and edges of the floor joists on. No issues of embedding brackets etc. The only issue is see is this finishing of this “buck out” Maybe boxing it in like boxing in a duct. Great place to put pot lights in. Kody, the other idea,,, what if you screw the rim joist into the plastic webs first. The webs are certainly strong enough to hold them in place to start. THEN, drill threw the rim joist and the foam, and poke a bolt through it all. When the concrete is poured, the bolt will be embedded, and then once cured, tighten up the nut on the basement side, and then add your hangers. Bobs your uncle. I’ve seen a similar idea done with the sill plate. Pre drill the plate, add anchor bolts to the plate, and once the wall is poured and troweled flat, drop on the sill plate with the anchors already attached. Tap down so nice and level, screw tight once the concrete sets.

[@abefroman3903]

what do those shield / braces cost

[@uptokode]

This system is called Giraffe. Last one I bought was $5200 CAN

[@abefroman3903]

@@uptokode how many pieces for that price

[@barrydennis6763]

Hi where can i buy the levann joist hangers I can’t find them any where

[@TriDaddy]

Hey Kody, I assume these are interior only? Trying to learn more on ICF and a second story deck.

[@stephentaylor9366]

Matthew, you can extend the ICF out of the exterior wall with a “T-block” and by adding the proper rebar both vertical design horizontally you can cantilever support out for your decking. You can support this along the wall with what we call “bump-outs” of block, giving the decking a good solid base to start from. Depending on the depth of the deck, you may be able to engineer it to support the entire deck surface? That’s an engineering question. Of course exterior columns are the easiest, but these can be built from ICF too! I’ve used waste blocks (those pieces that are cut from regular runs on the walls to assemble and pour these piers. The uses of ICF are endless if you can find someone who will work with it. All the engineering data is readily available from most manufacturers and will reduce the costs of hiring an engineer to figure out wha this best. Typically, I have located a retired P.E., and offered him the part-time work. They tend to love something to do, and will work cheaper.

[@TriDaddy]

@@stephentaylor9366 bump outs = brick ledge? I had heard of using brick ledge but I’m trying to make sure water doesn’t get inside the forms anywhere. I’ve also seen cutouts in the exterior of the block to allow the concrete to come to the surface- but same concern there with potential for water intrusion. Probably should make it a covered deck and stop worrying ;)

[@stephentaylor9366]

@@TriDaddy I’m not talking about a “brick ledge” block. I’m talking about a “TEE” block If you’re looking at the good block makers, they’ll have that TEE block in their stock. BTW, if you’ve got a contractor who knows what he’s doing, they’ll be NO leaks. Find one that understands concrete pours. And, if nothing else, seal the ledge with good waterproofing. There are bituminous materials that make excellent water barriers, and they have an adhesive side. I personally affixed a treated 2x12 ledger board to the home surface, anchored it to the wall with threaded “j” bolts which protruded through the block wall and ledger board, but back into the poured wall. If it ever needed to be replaced, you simply remove the nuts and replace it. One hint: you need a slight fall to your deck surface for drainage. So, you can actually attach a treated 1x4 to the back of the ledger board, and this will give you the needed angle to drain the deck. That way your flooring is attached flat to your ledger board. Remember, built your piers from ICF block. You can actually set them on end, and pour them that way, blocking each exposed surface with ply board that is removed once the concrete is set. Then they can be veneered with whatever matches the house. Or, you can pour a header wall out of block from the tee block to the piers. This will lessen the number of support piers needed, and assure you the decking will never move.

[@uptokode]

Sorry I didn’t respond. The hangers can be used for exterior decks and the like but I wouldn’t do it personally. Very hard to keep water out and we all know a deck ledger can be a real bugger for water infiltration. I like to use the waterproof membrane that goes below grade and I do a 24” width where my deck ledger goes. The width can be whatever you want. Just make sure you can lap it from below (shingle effect) and lap it from above. For the ledger you can space it away from the wall with spacers or cut thin kerf cuts in the backside of the ledger so water doesn’t get trapped. Lots of ways of doing it.

[@yuantronz45]

I keep seeing “ICF walls” but is the system suitable for staircases, upper floors, roofs, and balconies?

[@uptokode]

Yes it is. Very universal in design so the ideas are endless. I’m just trying to get folks to realize you can use ICF for more than basements. After that then we show them suspended concrete floors, custom stairs, etc.

[@gtiggsmusicstudent]

i have developed a massive interest in this too and yes i have notices it is very versatile

[@davidgoodwin5778]

With the hangers inserts what happens if you land on a plastic ICF stud? Or if you start with out contact on a stud will it be consistent on 16 or 24 inch center? My plans call for 2X10 16 inch centers with anchored ledger how much trouble would I have to switch to open joist?

[@uptokode]

You have to stick with 16” or 24” centres. When doing open web joist I go 24”. Can’t do a 19 3/16 space because they conflict with the ties.

[@ilikedirt250]

I'm really enjoying these videos. Great explanations. Those Lavann hangers look so easy to use. Great job team...keep the videos coming!

[@gibsonahmed7584]

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[@emiliolucca9224]

@Gibson Ahmed instablaster =)

[@gibsonahmed7584]

@Emilio Lucca Thanks so much for your reply. I got to the site through google and im in the hacking process atm. Seems to take a while so I will reply here later with my results.

[@gibsonahmed7584]

@Emilio Lucca it did the trick and I actually got access to my account again. I'm so happy:D Thank you so much, you saved my account !

[@emiliolucca9224]

@Gibson Ahmed No problem :D

[@kjy7440]

Do you prefer the Lavann hangers or the Simpson icflv 2 part hangers

[@uptokode]

Lavann hangers by a mile ! But you have to use Watkins hangers now.

[@aceace6001]

is possible to use 40long trusses on this? i like to have a big open. also do you know a company the sells 40 f long open trusses?

[@uptokode]

Local lumber yards can. The one we shop at can build up to 160’ trusses

[@jesuscamacho2583]

Where can you buy those Lebanon joist hanger? Can’t find them at Home Depot or Lowe’s.

[@joshanderson4372]

So I’m putting an addition on my home and we decided to go icf all the way up which is basement and 2 floors. Do we pour the icf walls one floor at a time then? So we would have 3 different pours for the walls?

[@tomkelly8827]

yes

[@hameedtalebi2351]

What if you want to do a wallout basement type of project with ICF? Let's say 9' ceiling in the basement+ 4' for frost line. So basement ICF walls has to be 13'. You can't pour 13' concrete in a day. Right?

[@uptokode]

You can. I don’t like doing it because it’s hard to vibrate the bottom and the bracing shields are only 10’ tall so you have to rig up an extension. I like to pour 5’ or so for the frost wall, then backfill, then complete the whole basement at once. Jury is out on which is more efficient

[@seanf7810]

Do all icf manufacturers recommend subermeged vibrators? I've heard it can cause walls to bulge a little.

[@uptokode]

@seanf7810 I don’t know what they recommend specifically. I know from experience that it needs to be done. Yes sometimes the butt joints in the block bulges very slightly. A quick rasp makes it true again.

[@williammackey7243]

Will you put a link to the hanger on here please?

[@beyondhorizons9758]

Simple and beautiful ! If I ever build another house it will be ICF.

[@uptokode]

Yes for sure!

[@cyoungso]

We are looking at doing an ICF house. What about slab floors?

[@uptokode]

Easy to work into your design. Fortruss is one brand of suspended floor that is easy to install and supplies great R-value which is important for bonus rooms above a garage. There’s other system out there too. Some are steel joists with Q-decking and then the slab on top of that. Definitely do-able and a fantastic design element

[@Dawid973]

6:54 can you explain how trusses seats on center main beam?

[@Kevinwbaker100]

Is there a Canadian distributor for the Watkins hanger?

[@chrisisinthehouse1]

What's your opinion of the perfect block and ef block?

[@dougtratch8260]

Hey Cody. Another great video on the benefits of ICF. A question I had and you probably already answered it, but I contacted a construction company about building a complete ICF two storey gabled house. Perhaps 24 to 2500 Sq ft. They were pretty advanced in their philosophies about building a greener home. We want to build on Vancouver Island but he suggested that only the foundation be ICF. The rest he stated to do in SIP, which he felt was less susceptible to the waviness of ICF. I think he’s talking out of his butt because I’ve watched a multitude of videos on bracing ICF. It’s critical to be diligent from the start. One other question I had was, how accommodating are municipalities to this type of construction? I’m fascinated by building our next and final home with ICF and wondered if cities areas revolutionary as I’d like to be. Thanks Doug in Vancouver.

[@uptokode]

Hey Doug. Great question. You are totally correct in saying that the guy is full of it. Only the short cut guys will have issues. Every ICF we have poured is as straight as the stringline. AND an ICF will never change either. It’s the only true monolithic wall assembly. SIPS is a gingerbread house. No thermal mass. It needs a floor and roof to complete its structural integrity. ICF is the ONLY system that can self support before the roof goes on. You really can’t compare anything else to it. Email me if you need anything else. [e-mail].

[@RJM1011]

Could you give me the name of a manufacturer of those hangers please so I can look them up learn more and who stocks them ? Thank you for the video.

[@RJM1011]

@@timstriff3354 Thank you yes I found some Simpson ones that use wood also they cost a lot more plus the cost of the wood I will have to see again if Simpson make ones like the ones used in the video. Thank you.

[@thanehillestad2]

Where can I purchase these Lavann Hangers? I can't find any distributers, the job is located in Utah.

[@uptokode]

They are mostly available in Canada. I am slowly working on having them available in the USA

[@jeromek8723]

Kody, I know you say the Lavann hanger is mostly available in Canada. A Google search doesn't turn up any links to them specifically. Does the company have a website that you could post for those of us who are interested in their specific design?

[@simonc4817]

@@uptokode Can you tell me where to buy these in Canada? I can't find them anywhere online. Thank you! Great video. I'm in Ottawa

[@oldporkchops]

Hi Kody, In case of a fire and after the foam has melted through, these first floor joists will still remain attached because they're attached using rebar to the concrete structure. Is this understanding correct?

[@cwehbe]

You are correct. Both the rebar will go through holes in the hanger and the concrete will surround the hanger as well. I've used them and they are super tough.

[@bbmw9029]

I know this is old now, but if the author is still watching, how about not using wood floor joists, but using an ICF floor decking system. Set up your vertical basement wall fomrs get an ICF decking system and get that stood up on shoring, do the rebar for the floor deck, tying it into the rebar for the walls, then pour the basement walls first floor deck at one time, making it a monolithic concrete structure. If you're doing this in Tornado alley, you now would have a pretty good storm shelter in the basement. I'd also look to do the roof the same way. Why have ANY structural wood.

[@mikegrant8031]

Why wait so long to pour the bottom slab, seems like after the walls are up it would be a lot nicer to work on.

[@JohnWilson-xi2wu]

When you stack the icf due to you stagger the joints?

[@nc3826]

As a general rule its always a good idea to stagger joints, for any task in construction.....Joints are a natural weak point.... So offsetting the joints, mitigates that weakness.... And it even applies to less related issues like water penetration like when installing shingles....

[@user8ZAKC1X6KC]

I just found how I want my next house built!

[@uptokode]

I like hearing that. Let me know if you need more info and help. I can make more videos to accommodate.

[@cjacob2335]

how long does it take ( average time) to build a house ex one in video?

[@uptokode]

We build a 2000 sq ft house with a 3 man crew in 7 months. That’s with a 1200 sq ft attached garage and basement was framed, rough-ins complete and exterior ICF foam had drywall on it to meet code. We only hired out plumbing, electrical and HVAC. We did the rest. Depending on many factors, you could obviously do it in less time by increasing trades on site and sub contracting to more people to push the schedule

[@cjacob2335]

@@uptokode great

[@tristanrivera9594]

Couldn't you just use anchor bolts?

[@uptokode]

You can. It would be a bit more work than you think because you need concrete around the anchor bolt and flush with the foam. That would entail having the bolts mounted to the ledger board in advance. Or something like that. I never put much though into it.

[@lazyweapon7]

What if you put your floor system in before you poured the concrete into the walls?

[@crosisofborg5524]

The foam blocks would never hold the weight

[@geneduclos4003]

Wow! Watching this video cleared up a lot for me. Thanks Kody!

[@uptokode]

Thanks Gene! We will be chatting soon

[@bigkz34]

Do you do work in Nashville

[@tomnjudychalmers]

I live in Ontario. Are these available in Canada?

[@uptokode]

Yes the Lavann hangers are available in Canada.

[@cyoungso]

@@uptokode this looks like Calgary

[@notyou6950]

Still, fire will gut the shell of the house. Spend extra on poured concrete floor and cap it off with concrete plate. My brother built his place just like this. My father build his with concrete caping every level and fully insulated 14 inch thick walls. I feel safest in my father's house. It's hurricane, fire and tornado proof.

[@kennethayres4106]

24 inch to center to center floor joists? 16 inch maximum for quality construction unless 2 layers of sub floor with 4 foot offset over lay.

[@davidgoodwin5778]

My opinion.......Using 2 dimensional lumber 16 on C is the way to go but with open joist the 24 inch on center you got 3 1/2 inch face to attached to VS 1 1/2.

[@pack_9mm]

Hi Cody. Where can I find these lavann hangers? Thank you.

[@uptokode]

What country do u live in?

[@pack_9mm]

Kody Horvey I am in Washington state. Whatcom county. Thank you.

[@CIULLASQUAD]

How do you do hvac?

[@uptokode]

We design the joists to be minimum 20” tall and areas with square or rectangular access to fit a supply line down. Also one for return air. I plan those with the truss plant and my HVAC contractor.

[@AdvantageWealth]

Great video..thanks! Definitely a consideration on our next home

[@themkhgha]

Love you show man, icf is the way to go. Thank you.

[@uptokode]

You betcha!! More ICF videos coming soon. Been waiting for some projects to come along and we have some cool ones fall of 2020 and spring of ‘21

[@themkhgha]

I just connected with a developer who is building 9 units right next to my house, I asked him to work for free and in return he would teach me the trade. I would like to specialize in icf. Do you think that would be sustainable?

[@uptokode]

I would take someone up on that deal. Great idea.

[@truthseeker-v4l]

seems like a ledger with bolts into concrete is a lot easier and cheaper and stronger

[@crystalclearaquarium]

Great video. Thanks

[@uptokode]

You’re welcome

[@rockrl98]

Concrete floor plz

[@oscarbostan1029]

Hi Kody, Great informative video. Tried using your code and its expired. Could you ask the company for a new coupon code. Thanks.

[@krossnkuss2875]

A house with ICF floor would probably survive a “sinkhole” disaster right? I remember about 5 years ago or so in Florida , a guy named Jeff Bush was swallowed completely with his house, it was a typical stick frame house. Look this event up on here with his brothers name Jeremy Bush. Really sad and scary......

[@uptokode]

An ICF home with concrete floors would definitely increase your chances of survival. It wouldn’t or at least shouldn’t crumble. But depends how deep it sinks !! Scary for sure!

[@alinaarchibald5599]

Would this work for i-joists?

[@uptokode]

Yes absolutely!

[@elaineirvin1]

Corey do you have a facebook? We are looking to build an ICF home by ourselves. I find your videos to be extremly helpful. I do production videos and I was looking to do one on our future ICF build. is there a better way to communicate with you?

[@elaineirvin1]

you can find me on facebook under elaine diana cieslak

[@uptokode]

Maybe DM me on Facebook at Kody Horvey. Or go to the about section and find my email. I would like to know more about your plan

[@bryanverberg4342]

Wow looks strong

[@ashleymarks6144]

AH. I get it. Between the basement and main floor, its ok to have a cold joint then.

[@TheMarpalm]

Great video!

[@uptokode]

Thank you!

[@roadkillontheweb]

Their website does not work and I can not find anyone that carries them in the states. Did they go out of business? Looks like a good idea but if you can not buy them they are worthless.

[@johnnyfred2125]

Why not set the trusses and deck before the pour? The added bonus is that everything gets squared and tied together. Then the bracing is only required for small adjustments to the walls.

[@uptokode]

It’s a good thought and I’ve toyed with the idea. Jury is still out.

[@BondJamesBond]

A makita guy. Tells you a lot about him.

[@uptokode]

Is that a good thing or a bad! Haha.

[@thebaldman72]

Beauty system.. Canadian like me, eh?? Lol.. I agree though.. It is a beauty..

[@AGTtactical]

This is why using concrete slabs works better...just stack on the poured wall.

[@MysteryScienceGaming]

damn those watkins hangers are expensive

[@pwashcroft]

Such great info. Thank you!

[@therealdiehl4671]

Looks like a good system. I wish you tube producers would realize how useless and distracting the background "music" is. I survived 13 years of public education and about 3 hours a week of bible teaching and preaching with out music behind the presentation.

[@GermanLibertarian]

These wiggly hangers will hold floor joists? Is this even safe? Seriously !?!

[@nc3826]

wiggly??? Seriously !?! what a mindless trolling comment SMH

[@emiliojr.cabandon6257]

BAD PRESENTATION! LET US KNOW IN ACTUAL PROCESS, NOT JUST TALKING, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, WITHOUT SHOWING WHAT YOU ARE TALKING.

[@uptokode]

I’ll update this video with the Watkins hangers.

[@Drwild75]

This is stupid and a giant waste of labor costs.

[@philweed1603]

Watch it 1.5x speed so you don’t fall asleep. You’re welcome

[@dlg5485]

Don't be a d|ck to someone who is taking time out of their busy day to give your sorry a$$ free information.