ICF True Cost Spring 2023

[@thekayfamilybuild]

Thanks for continuing to update the prices. Your video's have been really helpful as we get ready to do get our build going.

[@inmyimage1081]

Subbed. Look forward to you blazing a trail for us 😜

[@just-dl]

So, a 4'x8' section would be $240 for a completed, sealed wall. Or $60/l.f. for an 8' wall. A shell, 28x36, with a 128' perimeter would be under 8-grand? Are you trying to make my day? I realize I need to add in more space (gables on a cape, maybe a second floor, etc) plus subtract a little space for doors and windows. Also, my limited exposure to building has shown me that squares and rectangles are the cheapest shapes to build; squares give the most interior square footage when compared to perimeter (best bang for buck). simple roof lines are cheaper than complex. Are there other broad, sweeping generalizations like that which can help with planning a structure design? My goal is for a smaller home (sub-1000sq ft), built solid, tight, with passive solar and other energy efficient design elements. I'd appreciate your thoughts (or those of any of the Assembled Eyes)....

[@glenklassen779]

Another great video Aaron. You nailed it at the 3:08 mark: 'The only point of using lumber is that it's cheaper'. The last third of the video is also about as good as I've ever heard explaining why ICF is a better choice for people who do not know. Look forward to your next video.

[@Iuliancik]

Hi Glen, any thoughts on icf prices coming down in the near futures? Resin prices have come down with the rest of the market, it does not seem like icf price has come down in any way.

[@spazoq]

I guess if you don't have a budget to worry about, that's OK.

[@bradkvanbek7148]

@@spazoq Isn't there better places to save money, other than the structure of your home?

[@spazoq]

@@bradkvanbek7148 Are you building a home to last generations? I guess if that's what you're trying to do, might make sense. But you can build something that lasts generations out of wood for half the cost.

[@bradkvanbek7148]

@@spazoq where do you get that it cost twice as much to build with ICFs? In the video he concluded ICF wall system was 30% more than wood framing. My experience is that it adds 3 to 5 percent of the build cost of a home.

[@JohnDaniels]

When you see the federal reserve printing a lot of money either through low interest rates or quantitative easy then what is really happening is the prices of commodities and assets are not going up but the value of your money is going down

[@all3pools]

Better put!

[@InquiryTeaching]

You do a great job with your jobs and videos.

[@ladwiss]

Excellent informational video. Going to use this method for a smaller inside room in a future garage expansion project. I now have a direction of what to use. My neighbor used to install this stuff so he is going to be my eyes and hands. And he is an excellant framer

[@inmyimage1081]

Biggest benefit for us is that my wife and i can build our own house with minimal support. With my spine there isn’t any way I could build a stick frame house, maybe a tiny house but not a full size house. Can you comment on the comparison between a simple lite deck roof and whatever you would consider a simple truss roof? Thanks for your vids no go help your wife finish that addition 👍

[@darinco3]

That's what I was thinking also. The labor costs associated in stick framing vs. a block building party with friends/family at discount. Granted you have bracing and other factors to consider but very achievable with some forethought.

[@collin9085]

With wood framing you frame walls on the ground and then simply tilt them up into place. It's probably less labor than this ICF system, all things considered.

[@NickApex]

Thanks for the update, if things work out we’re about to roll a build and I’ve been waiting for an update. Appreciate the consideration of interest rates in the savings potential.

[@juliahelland6488]

Thanks for an update on 2023 project pricing. 💯

[@eliinthewolverinestate6729]

Icf makes more sense in a warmer environment than where I am at. The frost and moisture give icf issues here. Most put a concrete or masonry stem wall on top of the icf to allow moisture to wick out. Code here say at least 18" of masonry exposed to air above grade. I have a frost depth of 6 feet. And foundations should be insulated and vapor barrier or capillary break to stop moisture ingress into the masonry. What do you do if an icf wall leaks down the road 10 years after warranty done?

[@all3pools]

Your understanding of icf is not very complete…. Your environment is quite perfect for icf, I’ve trained several in Michigan, Ohio, Minnesota and icf does great…. I don’t have enough room here to go into all the solutions to the issues you brought up but they are all easy and obvious!

[@johnhardy4872]

Love this series and look forward to the next update. What's the scoop on what looks like a water leak on your red wall in the background?

[@all3pools]

It was a water leak during construction of roof over master behind the wall…. No sense fixing until I’m done as I’ll likely repaint the whole room!

[@jtr82369]

I don't even think your comparison is compensating for the 4-5' total CC foam of the ICF vs the 2" flash and bat they use in wood frame walls, the cost of 4-5" spray would be crazy lol I can't understand how ICF isn't the standard in hurricane risk places, they use concrete filled block already and then use crappy bat insulation, I can't imagine it saves that much compared to what you get with ICF. I am hoping to even get a LiteDeck roof with an ICF build so my place is a fully encased concrete structure with insane amounts of CC foam insulation (especially on the roof).

[@neilammentorp3654]

Great stuff. Have you included the rebar? I know labor is hard to compare across the country but that would be interesting. How about the cost of the bracing install and rental and the concrete pumper.

[@inmyimage1081]

He’s mentioned the rebar question in previous installments and simple answer is no, because it varies a lot in cost and ends up being similar to the various metal bits required for stick construction. He does not include the other items either but not sure if he would have a similar basis for doing so.

[@markodeen4105]

I aprecaite the updates and the fact you use your standard methodology, so the comparisons are meaningful.

[@nicholashudson5020]

Its probably a good idea to provide some context on those lumber numbers. At the start of 2020 (before pandemic) lumber commodity price was $400. So I am with you there. And it did spike ridiculously between 2020 and 2023, up to $1,600+ range. Highest it has ever been, by far. Again, I'm with you. But some other comments you made need some clarification... The current lumber price is $340. This is not historically high, by any stretch of imagination. We have seen prices in that range as far back as 2004, which itself wasn't some kind of major outlier. It also happened in 2005, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, and 2020. It has definitely been cheaper (during Great Recession, and during Covid panic), and it has definitely been more expensive, but overall its a pretty normal price. No builders from the last 20 years would be shocked at the prices on the shelf at Home Depot today. Most of them would probably be happy with them. And when you consider inflation, as you mentioned, the current price actually looks a lot better. $400 in 2005 (where the price of lumber was then) is equal to $620 today. So from that perspective, lumber is 30-40% cheaper than it was 20 years ago. Final note, Money Supply is not inflation. Doubling of money supply does not mean devaluation by half. Those numbers share some connections, but they can (and do) move completely independently of each other. Generally speaking Money Supply always goes up regardless of market conditions and inflation. Every year there is an increase in people, businesses, activity, etc. So you need more currency in circulation to supply that commerce. Granted, 2020-21 was a different kind of increase, but what is also interesting is that the period in our history which has seen the greatest money supply decline is... 2022-23. These things fluctuate. The number does matter, for a variety of reasons, but its not tied directly to either inflation or even less to lumber prices. That being said, I'm all for ICF. Its a little more expensive, and probably always will be, but its well worth it in my opinion for all the benefits.

[@all3pools]

Thank you for the critique, I do a price video like this with very rudimentary metrics every 3-4 months…. People seem to get what I’m doing and I do explain it a little different in each video but try to be very consistent in the products I compare…. But how would you expect a deep dive into the historical economics of lumber in a video that I try to keep under 15 minutes(otherwise the analytics are clear nobody watches)??? Glad u like icf👍🏼

[@nicholashudson5020]

@@all3pools That all makes sense. In hindsight I came off as kinda preachy there. No offense intended. I think ICF is the correct answer for people who value performance and strength as opposed to just front end cost and ease of building. For anyone who's actually going to live in the house for the long haul, it feels like a no-brainer. But I see the value you're providing by doing the cost analysis. It probably won't ever be cheaper, but knowing what the actual cost difference is and balancing pros/cons should be part of everyone's homework before making a decision.

[@dillonGC]

My local icf manufacturer (mikeyblock) just told me today I should assume $11/square foot for his product after rebar and grout. For me this is drastically different from stick framing, mostly because I can frame it because I’m a carpenter. What suppliers are you using to get you at this price? Shipping in fox blocks can get me closer but it’s still at least double…

[@all3pools]

You can form your own icf if you are a carpenter too, it’s more similar to carpentry than concrete work imo…. Rost icf and supply, Chris 417-380-4996

[@robdickson6705]

Thank you, really really appreciate the update and the comparison from standard stick frame and ICF, I agree to this comparison, I ask that maybe you can compare from the beginning, footings, walls, in the foundation to a standard poured or block foundation, Where we are in Canada the cost is no comparison, accept with us. We will now only price in ICF as compared to block or poured as their is an extreme benefit to working and having an ICF foundation. Thank you again.

[@JohnDaniels]

Is it better to use these because you don't have to build wood forms for the concrete and then put the insulation inside because you waste all that money on the forms. Is that the reason that you like these blocks?

[@all3pools]

One of the many reasons yes, traditional firming is heavy hard labor, which is why it’s very expensive, the icf is higher material cost but the labor is easier and faster when you factor in that it also gets rid of the step of insulating later!

[@JohnDaniels]

@@all3pools Thank you 👍🏻. What is a ball park figure for just the ICF forms for a 32' by 32' by 8" tall?

[@savydude1]

I think the ICF should be compared to a double stud passive house wall. I think the cost would be close to the same.

[@paulmarc-aurele5508]

I have been looking for a video where someone takes a concrete block building and attaching foam on both sides, using rebar, and filling with perlite. I think it might be cheaper and better than ICF?

[@all3pools]

No chance that would end up cheaper imo, 2” foam sheets are actually kind of expensive then what do you attach the drywall and exterior veneer to?

[@jeremyfogt6798]

So what are the cost difference for the electrical, interior/exterior finish? It is not just the wall.

[@all3pools]

There should be zero difference, some electricians try to charge more, most good/honest ones will only have a small nominal extra charge for the labor to cut the grooves for wire

[@nodoakdozeer1339]

What about Tstuds with foam? Cost change vs thermal bridge reduction?

[@all3pools]

I guess but you loose all the structural robustness of icf…

[@nodoakdozeer1339]

@@all3pools Agreed & likely would not last nearly as long. Personally prefer ICF for stationay structures. Comment was mainly from/for meeting passive house standards and for lightweight mobile/manufactured structures.

[@BenjaminRadoslovich]

Thanks for the great comparison. How does it compare to forming, insulating, striping, placing, concrete basement walls? I am planning on building a daylight basement for a 35' round house and was thinking about using ICF for the basement walls and potentially the 1st level walls.

[@robnowe5464]

Thank you Aaron!!! Bottomline then is... Zip $161 for 4x8 section or 32 sq ft or $5.03125 psf and ICF $240 for the same 32 sqft or $7.50 psf OR 49.07% more for the materials? Assumptions: $150 pcf for concrete.

[@all3pools]

Sure, on outer walls, but, you now have 0 thermal bridging, sound proof 250 mph walls, is that worth $2.50 a foot extra, I routinely see people spend $5/ft extra to get a name brand tile;)

[@2point..0]

@Cutting Edge Homes !, I have been following your KZbin channel for several months!!! I am in the middle of designing a home for my family and I am using I.C.F.'s for my foundation and trying to make up my mind on which I.C.F. manufacture to source from??? I would like the chance to speak with you someday if you have some free time after work??? Thank you!!!

[@tinoslaponi8514]

This doesn't factor in the additional charge for your mechanicals. Electrical, plumbing, HVAC, etc will always upcharge in most places when they have to work with ICFs. As far as tornados, unless you have a monolithic poured roof, the uplift will likely rip off the roof and suck out the occupants if it that close. Lastly, mold is a HUGE issue in ICF homes if not address properly. Need to run a lot of dehumidifiers for 1 year minimum after construction to control the capillary wicking into the drywall. That being said, I still built with ICF, lol. But they are certainly not problem free.

[@LucasAttemptsLife]

How bullet proof is ICF compared? I know most people probably don't care too much about that, but it would be a good video

[@all3pools]

Been planning a vid about just that lol

[@eliinthewolverinestate6729]

If they made icf blocks for footers I would use them on footers. The time it takes to set up forms, remove form, and insulate. They can't have the plastic cross ties. Those ties make it not structural. An direct path for water. How does the masonry dry out in icf? Masonry loves to wick moisture. 20 years so you must of had to rip out icf because of mold and water logged concrete. Actually cmu block with vermiculite cores and comfortboard has better r value than icf. And it allows moisture to wick out. And cmu block is 1/5th the price. Mineral wool is 70$ per 25 sqft. The other crew does poured walls but still nice r values. I do cmu block because the money for conrete goes in my pocket not the concrete companies. And we do timber frames because cheaper than 2x4's and can insulate up to r82. Which we consider over r60 a waste. Diminishing return.

[@all3pools]

Non of this is right…

[@thebalaa]

Where can I get some of those mini blocks?

[@all3pools]

Rost icf 417-380-4996

[@deanjohnson6082]

is there a new update coming soon?

[@all3pools]

Yes

[@yourteam8187]

How much does an ICF floor like quad-deck cost currently?

[@rafflesmaos]

Out of curiosity and sorry if I somehow missed this on my initial watch of the video. Do you take air barriers and all the taping and sealing for a tight envelope one has to do with stick built into its cost? Because ICF has it for free, the wall itself is an impenetrable air barrier after the pour, and no risk of subcontractors puncturing the barrier like with stick built.

[@Prorex1911]

How long can Nudura sit outside in the weather before it’s no good? I found a good deal on some, but been sitting outside for about 6mo. in Texas.

[@av1204]

it will be fine most likely. Especially if it is still in the packaging... it will have a powdery texture on top that you can wipe off if you are doing stucco but if doing hardi type siding it isnt an issue.

[@Notesens]

Framing can handle any wind conditions assuming it's engineered for them? .. ICF is a good product, but still way too expensive. Much more than $20,000 difference here in Canada for 2400sf house.

[@all3pools]

It’s not, and if you even frame to 150mph with wood the strapping costs will make it even closer…

[@thatmortgagechicfye8674]

Are you located in Alabama?

[@all3pools]

We have a couple properties in dauphin and spend time there in the off-season, and I’ve got a crew that likes to do jobs down there when it’s cold in MO

[@JoshuaHartisalwayslearning]

We starting our build during the insanity and ended up with suspended concrete slabs on foam ( using insuldeck ) because when we did the numbers it was about 15% cheaper than the engineered joists + subfloor + wood floor together. I'm regretting it only slightly ( the house is so quiet ), but it definitely thows all the trades for a loop, tough to find people that are willing to do suspended concrete in residential.

[@concernedcitizen4862]

Was the only regret having to deal with the different trades or is there anything else that you regret about it? I am thinking of doing the same thing. Thanks.

[@JoshuaHartisalwayslearning]

@@concernedcitizen4862 Negatives in my opinion: It's more work for sure to create/deal with voids rather than having the open space that open web floor joists provide and it slows down builds significantly since the shoring has to be left in place so long. If you're doing relatively high ceilings ( 10+ feet ) it can be tough to find shoring/bracing rentals that will be reasonably priced. We ended up using framing lumber and then re-used that for our interior walls. If you're looking to get under roof fast, openweb trusses/joists will be a lot faster.

[@ToddBizCoach]

Why do you need to use suspended concrete for floors? Use wood ,open truss design.

[@ToddBizCoach]

@@JoshuaHartisalwayslearning you can use use open truss system for floors with ICFs. No need to use suspended concrete for floors with ICFs.

[@JoshuaHartisalwayslearning]

@@ToddBizCoach I'm aware, if you read the parent comment we did it for cost reasons during COVID... as at that time it was cheaper.

[@dmv_p]

Would be great if this information was wrapped into a spreadsheet.

[@quill6211]

What’s the wind speed difference with an 8 inch core wall compared to a 6 inch core? Thx

[@all3pools]

Depends a lot on rebar lay out, but u can get 250mph rating with proper rebar

[@JerryBarron-qr4wy]

Thanks for the information it was very informative. I am going to build an underground bunker. Is ICF a direct burial product? That’s again for the information.

[@aaronb1188]

How high can you build any limit? What about a triple story house?

[@all3pools]

They’ve built hotels and apartment buildings with stories in the teens, I’m not sure of the record but it’s far taller than any house

[@saranaden8719]

Looking for someone in Southern IL (westside) that could lift a old home and do a foundation underneath. Home was built on the ground with rock base perimeter approximately 12" high. any information you could share would be greatly appreciated.

[@justinjones5071]

How your doing I love your videos. I want to build my home in ICF. How do I plug in with you and your team for training. Or hell I’ll work for free just to learn.

[@all3pools]

Shoot a request to [e-mail] and we’ll contact you before we announce the next dates!

[@Th3120ck]

Do you know anyone in DFW that is an expert ICF build?

[@all3pools]

Shoot me an email to [e-mail] and I’ll give you a contact of a good builder!

[@danielsiriphongs]

@@all3pools I sent you an email too as I'm in the same area and need a good builder! Thank you!

[@robertmickleiv3949]

Where is what I'm seeing so far off from your $760 lumber futures? I'm seeing $400 currently.

[@av1204]

i see 400ish.

[@robertmickleiv3949]

@@av1204 I'm not suggesting stick framing over ICF just wondering why the numbers for that are so different.

[@brucebanner5860]

Is there a program that I can use to design my home using ICF?

[@all3pools]

Most cad or sketch up programs, just set your wall offsets to 11.25 for 6” core walls!

[@sussex1066]

Love the videos and knowledge Aaron! We’re in the process of finalizing plans to build using ICF - we’re in Orlando, FL. Is it just me or are the ICF contractors building in a hefty premium for something that’s fairly simplistic on the back end? I’m all for everyone making a profit, covering overhead, etc. but I’ve priced out my project based on materials, 7897 sq feet of ICF wall area, concrete, rebar, labor, adding .50 cents/sq foot for miscellaneous items and it’s a little over $9/sq foot. ICF contractors down here are wanting to charge $18-$19/sq foot all-in. 100%+ plus gross margins seems excessive, am I off beat here?

[@all3pools]

18-20 is going rate and honestly it’s much higher in some markets with few knowledgeable contractors…. Concrete intimidates new labor sometimes but I’m trying my best to train enough people to make icf far more mainstream, one effect will be lower or at least steady labor rates you can count on…. It’s why I encourage diy so much, at least you have that bullet in your gun if labor bids are too high…. I realize that’s not always an option…. If you have a contractor hungry to get into it that lacks the hands in experience send him my way and I’ll get him up to speed for u:)

[@sussex1066]

@@all3pools My guess is contractors that specialize in ICF know a round about number of how many projects they’re going to do per year with a growth factor added per year so they shoot for a certain gross margin per project. Majority of homes down here are going CMU or framing, mostly because I think that’s what builders know. In general, builders are creatures of habit and do not like to deter from they know as tried/true and comfortable with. That’s a crazy premium especially considering ICF is supposed to be an easier and more cost effective technology. To me, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush! Looks like I need to start an ICF business. I’m in discussion with my carpenter who’s a jack of all trades to complete some of the Fox Blocks training and I’ll hire him as my PM! I can find 5-6 unskilled laborers at $30/hour to do the heavy lifting - or lack thereof ha

[@sussex1066]

@@all3pools Also, isn’t that one of the main benefits of ICF, easier install process? I would think most of the actual labor involved doesn’t involve a bunch of skilled trades which come at higher labor costs? Even with paying a knowledgeable PM at $2-3/ per square foot, that’s still $6-8 less per sq foot than that $18-$20 going rate

[@cynthiaeddy9218]

I heard this ICF are not good to observe water good and with time your electrical can get damaged and fixing the problem will be a lot more . What do you said about this if you leave in a place that is flooded risk . Also electrical and plumbing is difficult to install in walls and want to charge more .

[@ToddBizCoach]

Did I hear correctly you used a price of $5/sq ft ,delivered, for Nudura? Does your price comparison include any labor cost comparison? As I watched video I did not hear you talk about labor comparison cost for first floor,above grade, stick built vs ICF.

[@shopwithgpt]

That is just for the block. Labor, concrete, rebar will all be extra and you will be looking at upwards to $10 per sqft on labor depending on your contractor.

[@ToddBizCoach]

@@shopwithgpt where did you come up with $10/sq ft for labor? That’s greatly exaggerated in my experience. I have seen 3 people erect and pour ICFs ,including footer, 1300 sq ft(40’x 32’x9’) in 2 days. They worked 9 hour days. That’s a total of 54 hours. At a wage of $22-$25/hr ( sub contracted labor)that equals approx $1350( 54 x 25). That’s equal to $1.00 per sq ft. Add 10% general contractor profit puts the cost at $1.10/ sq ft.

[@shopwithgpt]

I'm building a 6000sqft house and roughly paid $7/lf cad for the walls, from what I calculated and seen similar quotes from others here. But yeah that will vary greatly depending on where you live. if you can get 1-2$ for experienced labor that's amazing if you're planning to build.

[@Iuliancik]

@@ToddBizCoach Noone will work for $1 or $2 a sq ft for labor , and idk where you got the $22 to $25 an hour number, most people bill at least $50 an hour per worker, and that is probably the minimum, i would say closer to $75 to $100 if you are making it a business. Wood framing is at minimum $7 a sq ft mostly everywhere, and that is a medium builder price, not a homeowner price

[@ToddBizCoach]

@@Iuliancik As a general contractor I can hire sub contractor labor at $22-$25/ hour for putting up ICF blocks under supervision of a project manager. That’s where I got my costs from for labor.

[@davidgebraun4726]

I'm from Europe, the cement is poured here for 70 years...the mistake is that you install styrofoam on both sides, it leads to cracking of the concrete, the styrofoam must only be on the outside.... consult with builders from Europe, best regards

[@all3pools]

Na, I don’t think you get icf, we don’t install styrofoam, it’s the form, plus you call concrete cement…;)

[@banovak611]

Thanks for the video and content. I'm guessing your cost for ICF does not include rebar or clips if needed. Correct?

[@all3pools]

Correct, it also doesn’t include all the strapping and ties needed for wood frame…. Codes are all over the place for strapping so we try to keep it rudimentary and task the individual with investigating the ancillary costs in their market, this is a series of vids and I get into more detail about that regularly

[@RyanBanman]

Still dont understand why concrete building is so much mroe expensive here. Eveything in South america is vuilt with concrete or brick. Why cant we?

[@thomasarchambault9463]

I would like to respectfully say that the world is absolutely upside down today and it is effecting everyone.

[@colonelclump2000]

$240 per SINGLE polystyrene block is insane!!!! A single project will take hundreds if not thousands of these blocks. Polystyrene is packing material that costs pennies. Insane..just INSANE!!! Huge money maker for the companies.

[@all3pools]

Wow you are not smart…. You watched the whole video and thought that’s what it said??? 240 is for 32 sq ft…. So around $8/ft2…. 🤦🏻‍♂️

[@colonelclump2000]

too expensive dummy, you are robbing people@@all3pools

[@JonnieShipbaugh-dc9wk]

Poor speaker, not very organized and “all over the place presentation” makes this difficult to understand. 👎👎👎

[@all3pools]

Thanks. Let me know when you take the time to produce informative content that changes an industry and I’ll be happy to shred u back;).

[@decarteaux]

Please stop playing with the mini ICF piece! So distracting.

[@all3pools]

Na