Twin Peaks S3 Ep. 1 Discussion (Twin Peaks Rewatch Podcast)

[@ivanlupi]

Facts: 1) Lynch stated that art houses are dead. 2) That statement was an answer to his possible return to cinema. 3) The fact that it is hard to classify Season 3 as a tv series or a movie makes it very special and innovative. We should just look forward.

[@idlevideos]

Agreed!

[@tristanturner2782]

Really enjoying the return of this show, and Twin Peaks. Thanks Chris and Jake.

[@Kain5th]

@54:00 when you guys talk about 'something that's missing' that hawk has to find, someone suggested that it could be a missing page from Laura's secret Diary that said what happened to Cooper that Annie told her to write in Fire walk with me. That would be neat if thats true

[@idlevideos]

Someone on the Idle Thumbs forums noticed that there is literally a book called "Indian Heritage" visible on the shelf of Ruth Davenport's apartment. How amazing would it be if that ends up being the actual clue they have to find?

[@juanita-dark]

I was thinking that too. It could also be the ring Teresa Banks wore.

[@Julie-s9l]

Say whaaaat? Now I have to go look for that book on Ruth's shelf!!

[@waynedodgin7449]

Nice to actually see you fellas.Was a big fan of your old TP Podcasts so its fantastic to have you back discussing the new show.

[@psimplegamer46]

Love this podcast. You guys did a great job.

[@recoilAbs]

Guys, this is a fucking great talk about Lynch, subscribed, cheers.

[@NolanWillard]

Jake permanently deletes his notes at 57:58

[@ericwycoff1399]

The box was watching them, holy crap never heard anyone say that before like that

[@TheGutterMonkey]

Hey, it's the guy from Double Fine Adventure!

[@phantorang]

Finally a podcast that stays on topic! Thanks for this, looking forward to next. Only 1 thing I found negative, I dont get why you think the heritage comment was so bad, for me it made perfect sense in the way Hawks heritage has ties to the Black and White lodge from the original 2 seasons. But anyways, keep up the good work! :)

[@idlevideos]

Thanks for the kind words! As you say, the Hawk stuff is in keeping with the original series, we've just always found that "heritage" stuff to be slightly off-putting since it's entirely made up anyway. It's true that in the world of Twin Peaks, it's supposedly related to Native Americans, but that feels like window dressing in the way "native" stuff is often just treated with a sort of hand-wavey "it's mystical" attitude. It's not a huge deal, just not our favorite element of the series.

[@idlevideos]

(Followup note to that: It's addressed nicely in episode 3 of The Return.)

[@Zaccheus4]

Phantorang I'm very suspicious the "heritage" isn't his Native American ethnicity. The fact that it's what everyone in the show believes is what meant by heritage leads me to believe it's something else.

[@jcarterla]

In the 80's I was all about The Cure, John Waters, David Lynch and generally being weird.

[@Brandon_Powell]

16:33 I don't think that's necessarily a good thing. There were a lot of great contributions from other writers and directors in the original series. Hell there are even some ideas from other people that David Lynch and Mark Frost carried over. People losing feeling in their arm. The faces of people who are getting too close to darkness turning pale and their lips turning black. We first see that with Windom Earle in season 2. We first see Ben Horne being bothered by the strange noise in his office in one of the later episodes of season 2. That's not to say that I'm not happy that David Lynch and Mark Frost aren't in control of the show but I do believe that the best episodes from the original run are just as valuable. Even some episodes that Mark Frost and David Lynch didn't have much to do with.

[@rvegas81]

great recap!

[@aaronwoodward1531]

As someone has never watched the first 2 seasons, I had no idea what the heck was going on. But I'm still very interested in learning about the world of Twin Peaks.

[@smokeylonesome4328]

Not a smart idea... it's like starting Game of Thrones during season 5.

[@Cymonie1]

When you talk about Lynch equating a character's outward ugliness with being morally compromised, I have to wonder if you've ever seen his movie, Elephant Man (1980). The message there was rather the opposite. And then there's Laura Palmer--she looked like the ideal small-town beauty queen, but there was another darker life going on behind that perfect face. Same goes for Josie.

[@idlevideos]

Yes, the Elephant Man is a great point here! Although I do think there is still a pattern to observe across Lynch's work in this regard, despite exceptions--not to condemn him, just to observe and consider. We did also in that conversation also point to his proclivity to show darkness behind the all-American facade. Thanks for the thoughtful comment!

[@laudanum09]

You raised good questions, but I think the key is this: Thematically, Lynch does all-American veneer with perversions and madness beneath. Aesthetically, Lynch uses the 'grotesque' to elicit visceral responses and create tone or atmosphere. So theme vs. aesthetic and while the two overlap I think it's important to distinguish when he uses the odd or ugly to create a feeling or sensation rather than make a moral or meaningful connection between them. If anything, I think the very placement of the 'grotesque' in such a context (which is a simple enough procedure) eliciting such associations just underlines the way that association between the ugly and the evil is a sort of pervasive theme in society and has been for a long time. So the interesting question here is not whether Lynch himself has some issue with the ugly or thinks they're evil (I know that's not as simple as what you guys were talking about) but rather why the association between the ugly and the evil is such an easy response to elicit from an audience and why these associations and their given affects for mood or tone or atmosphere is successful in the first place. I think Foucault's History of Madness might be relevant here.

[@JamiHeart]

The hand signal Laura Palmer does at the beginning represents a tree. The picture that Laura hangs on the wall of her room with the floral wallpaper is a representation of One Eyed Jacks....check the One Eyed Jacks wall paper in the series.

[@TheBloodlessOne]

What is wrong with mentioning his heritage? The Black Lodge lore has already been established as having ties to Native American tribes in the past, and clearly whatever's going on with Cooper is tied to the Black Lodge. Like is it that you're saying that it's just cliche to tie that spiritual stuff to Native Americans, or are you saying it's derogatory?

[@idlevideos]

Basically it's kind of a cheesy cliche. We weren't crazy about it in the original show either.

[@TheBloodlessOne]

Yeah I see what you mean. I don't think the line is derogatory or racist, so I'm glad that that isn't what you meant lol, but it is somewhat of a trope at this point, so I can see where you're coming from there. Also, thanks for the reply!

[@eedrelisdufrayne15]

Soap operas usually have cheesy cliches! :)

[@valentinakaquatosh]

Exactly. I'm Menominee and we get this a lot, in many, many shows, comics, movies, etc., to the point where people who don't have "our heritage" don't realize the crap we have to put up with from other cultures whenever any "folklore" about the northwoods is mentioned. Really. I think the black lodge mythos is so bizarre and so Lynch that it's finally more recognized as purely Lynch that most folks now don't associate it with our sacred stories.

[@valentinakaquatosh]

And when I mention "crap" I mean folks asking us, "does this really have to do with your culture?" Like, people really are stupid enough to think that the fiction is based on fact not purely fantasy. Mainly because our ways are still in practice, not part of a mythology.

[@soyelsata]

wtf that 'black jesus' at the detention center at the end of episode 1???? i couldn't sleep dude....

[@davelocke]

Yep, that was spooky. I thought it was a homeless type guy, like Mulholland drive style.

[@FijneWIET]

The piece of flesh is a finger...

[@idlevideos]

We're not so sure. David Lynch has refused to classify it when reporters ask if its a finger or even human remains, beyond confirming that to him it's "a piece of meat" of some kind.

[@Brandon_Powell]

I forget who it was but someone pointed out that it looks like a piece of rainbow trout which makes sense because they find it under some fishing gear. It might be some sort of parallel to the season 2 finale. 12 rainbow trout in the back of Pete's truck and now only a small piece of rainbow trout in Bill Hastings car.

[@Julie-s9l]

Or Mr Strawberries dog

[@LfunkeyA]

the part with the woman and the key was pretty great

[@voltaire-325]

The heritage line was fine. Hawk himself told the tale of the Black Lodge as a part of Native lore. Thus related to his heritage. I do not think it is an old trope like the an expert Indian tracker or something like that. No need for you to be a white knight about this sort of thing. Sounds silly.

[@psimplegamer46]

I know, right? Most Native Americans don't mind their heritage being mentioned as long as it's done respectfully as Margaret did. Then there's the fact that Mark Frost tied a lot of the Twin Peaks weirdness into native mythology and history in his book.

[@valentinakaquatosh]

Only problem with that is, and I'm speaking because I am Menominee Indian with also a Chippewa background with many relations to other tribes, that our ways are not mythology, not fantasy. Whenever writers "borrow" from our sacred stories they think they're using ideas just like any other mythos, but in our culture the attitude is different, the stories are part of a very much alive religious tradition that people do not often respect having an oral teaching not to be shared with the masses. Some stories are only told in part, some told for this audience or that, always with a lesson, and always different according to the tribe/nation, with no one holding a copy right because no one can "own" a spiritual teaching. The catch is our stories are spiritual teachings, and unlike Bible stories and other stories that white people write down, they are meant to stay living within the culture. When outsiders come to try to re-tell the stories out of context, it's very disrespectful in a way not many understand. Unless you grow up, or are taught the cultural ways, you don't really get this explained to you. Only when a mythology that stands completely outside our cultural boundaries is it somewhat okay, YET a writer/artist still has to tread lightly, respectfully to make sure that things are mentioned generically. During the original airing of Twin Peaks when the first Native American tie-in with the Black Lodge was mentioned, there WAS concern, as there usually is with such things. However, things do relax when more unique weirdness comes flooding in. I mean, really, all the crazy spirits and multi-dimensional crazy stuff can take many, many alternate meanings and cultural explanations. Perhaps Lynch and Frost will give us some of those views? I would love to see more artists depict The Black Lodge and other Twin Peaks events with a multi-cultural bent ;-) No matter what, it hasn't made me shy away from the series. I'm an avid fan and always will be! Hence why I'm writing so passionately on this subject, LOL

[@LfunkeyA]

the same applies to any culture borrowing from any other culture. get off your high, whiny horse.

[@valentinakaquatosh]

Of course. No need to get rude.

[@valentinakaquatosh]

What we're talking about here is CULTURAL APPROPRIATION -- when somebody adopts aspects of a culture that’s not their own. Appropriation is not the same as cultural exchange in the sense that the power dynamic between cultures has shifted, in which members of a dominant culture take elements from a culture of people who have been systematically oppressed by that dominant group. A marginalized group of people, unlike the dominant group, don't have the choice to adapt the customs and clothing of the dominant for fun, instead they are losing their cultural traditions because they had to abandon them to survive in the dominant culture's world. When you tell me and my people to get off our high, whiny horses when it comes to cultural appropriation, it's challenge for me to take a deep breath, step back, and explain why this is a big deal instead of blowing off steam. We get angry over this issue because our ways are disappearing, our language isn't spoken anymore, and my grandparents were FORCED to go to Indian schools where they weren't allowed to speak their native language, let alone practice their religion, wear their hair long, or wear any regalia. When someone decides, for example, to dress up as an "Indian" for Halloween, that is cultural appropriation at its worst -- a simple mistake many white people make. It seems innocent enough, but it's symbolic of the trivialization of historic oppression. Cultural appropriation is also about being able to take, without sharing, and feel entitled to do so, without respect of the origins and true identity of the people you're taking from, just the attitude of "well, I don't care because it's my story and I'm really honoring them by not saying anything bad" and yet you're fictionalizing something real is hurtful because that is exploitation, my friend, using the culture without permission, just taking without giving back, just like what's been going on for hundreds of years... but I digress. With cultural appropriation, it lets some people get credit for things the original culture never gets credit, much less gets paid, for. It spreads lies about our culture, therefore continuing to generate stereotypes that hurt and marginalize people of color. Resisting the harm of cultural appropriation by making the choice to stop taking and using symbols and "costumes" (clothing) and etc. from cultures you don't have personal experience with (especially if you don't know how much those people have suffered) is just being thoughtful, kind, and goes a long way towards healing from the years of oppression. We can still have fiction and fantasy without appropriation. At first I thought Twin Peaks was going to fall into that trap, but over time David Lynch and Mark Frost did a VERY great job at avoiding the pitfalls of cultural appropriation. David Lynch, with his transcendental meditation group, The David Lynch Foundation, has helped American Indian youth in schools help deal with post traumatic stress. He knows more about the culture now.... PLUS did you know that originally Twin Peaks was to be set in South Dakota? Season 3 he's taken us back to Buckhorn! So let's see how things play out... I'm excited to see how weird and wonderful things are going to get. I think the inter-dimensional beings/spirits of the Black Lodge go beyond any cultural setting and live within a universe so unique, they can't be fully explained by people, yet we try to describe them, and Hawk, as well as other TP characters attempt to within their own personal cultural restraints.

[@StLennyBruce]

Quit checking your phone. Wow.