If Kirmussaudio's Record Cleaning Ideas Are Correct Are Everyone Else's Wrong?

(Note: Mr. Kirmuss avers that the "vinyl residue" you see at the bottom of his tank is not due to damage done by his cavitation device, but rather is vinyl stripped by other cavitation devices an then "locked" into the groove by soap residue.)
This is the second video featuring Charles Kirmuss, developer of the "In The Groove" Ultrasonic Vinyl Record Restoration System (www.kirmussaudi...).
His presentation is convincing and his ideas credible. He takes ultrasonic record cleaning several steps beyond anyone else's regimen and makes a strong case for why he does so.
Please watch the video with a degree of healthy skepticism. AnalogPlanet hopes to soon have one an "In the Groove" system to try at home, which will provide a much better indication of its efficacy and we will endeavor to research and try to verify (or debunk, if need be) the many claims for Kirmuss's system and of equal importance, the negative assertions he makes about other ultrasonic cleaning machines and systems.
More now at www.analogplane...
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[@sikorafiks9276]

Ok...I just watched a guy try to remove fungus and residues from a new vinyl for 30 minutes... what am I doing with my life

[@iain-northpole1587]

I gave up after 20 minutes! Buy cd's!!

[@vladimiravidon4576]

much healthier than watching 5 minutes of CNN or Fox. We are on the right pass, my friend. Now, I am going to watch my records air-dry!

[@jayschelstrate9878]

Regardless of whether or not the cleaning agent works as presented, the fact that they are selling a ultrasonic for under $1000 is really attractive

[@mikedestazador5116]

Jay Schelstrate indeed

[@rickmilam413]

It works well. However it is not casual compared to most other methods, not because of the ultrasonic but the process involved. I put all new records in for just the first cycle and it's only six or seven minutes.

[@kirmussaudio7578]

We do not use a cleaning agent. We use an ionizing agent to change the charge of the record with respect to water which attracts the effects of cavitation. The in and out of the machine with the record us needed as the change of charge is reduced as the record spins. We first remove the films left over from prior cleanings, then the release agent that the Shure Brothers discovered in the 70's, a discovery long forgotten as they had no method to remove it...until the arrival of the Kirmuss process.

[@ebkesq72]

The compound Kirmuss was spraying on the record seems to be the culprit for creating the “soap film”-not fungus nor the mythical “vinyl press release agent.”

[@kirmussaudio7578]

Explaining;The ionizing spray has a colorant added. It allows one to see what the ultrasonic softened in the prior cycle. It is not a cleaning solution. The spray changes the charge of the record to be opposite to that of water. This attracts cavitation towards the record. Rapid dissipation of the visible colorant indicates that the process has removed the films left over from other cleaning processes, the film of the natural outgassing of the plasticizer, finally the release agent from the pressing plant.

[@NackDSP]

He likely used a dirty brush. Are we suppose to believe that is the first time that brush was used? The soap was likely on the brush from the previous twenty records. It's like watching Penn and Teller.

[@DismasM]

That 45 with the teal label must be the cleanest record in the history of records.

[@crmatt99]

Joe Murphy yeah, I think it removed all the dirty words.

[@seykayay]

This was disconcerting for a minute; I had to remind myself that my records have thus far not imploded and I enjoy them very much, even if they do have soap on them. This hobby requires the creation of good boundaries for oneself, otherwise the worry and obsessing may cancel out the enjoyment.

[@mw3683]

Two years too late, but thank you 😉

[@ianmedium]

His explanation of the release agent is the first time it’s made sense to me, plastics under heat I was told give off a gas and it’s this gas that when it hits the cooling air can turn into a residue on the surface of the plastic which is what I think he is on about.

[@Agamemnon2]

Maybe, but I'd argue that if so, calling it a "release agent" is erroneous and misleading, since to me that phrase implies something that's deliberately introduced, whereas he appears to be describing a residue formed during the pressing process.

[@sauces_official]

When the surface of a clean record is scanned with an electron microscope there is no sign of a "release coating", the vinyl material is homogenous. Due to the heat and pressure, any volatiles are going to be forced to escape at the edges, not the faces. Vinyl is cooled without exposure to air or other gasses, as cold water circulates through the press, nothing is introduced. No criticism is meant of his marketing, these are just points to consider.

[@PanAmStyle]

Interesting, but his descriptions and explanations are so imprecise that I am left sceptical. And has been pointed out, the camel hair brush and microfibre cloth get contaminated. For this to be convincing each use should be with a pristine brush and/or cloth. For the drying I would think lint-free tissue such as Kimwipes would be a better choice.

[@johnlyden7243]

Molds are vented to allow for gases to escape during the molding process. Every molded item I've ever worked with was air cooled (some so hot you couldn't handle them after ejection from the mold). The water pumped through a mold is to keep it warm, aiding in flow propagation and has little to do with cooling the parts. "New car smell" is allll the plastic parts outgassing as they continue to cure after the molding process.

[@rickewilde]

Like steam off water when its heated.

[@NickP333]

I just had to come back and revisit this video after watching “Record Cleaning Made Difficult”.

[@StonefieldJim4]

LOL!

[@cootaloot]

This guy talks in circles too much but I do need to thank him. His endless BS finally convinced me to just buy the components needed to make my own ultrasonic system. It's working great for a total cost of $490.

[@chipco5150]

Yeh, Michael's BS is a little hard to take....

[@ericmacho7452]

I watched this entire video and read through dozens of comments and have no idea what is happening.

[@vintageaudio4088]

Cavitation doesn't involve exploding bubbles. In fact they IMPLODE which creates high velocity streams of the fluid near the record's surface.

[@kirmussaudio7578]

They both implode and create a plasma wave as an implosion. As nentioned most tested peer ultrasonic machines of late using a cavitation tester and aluminum foil do not even produce cavitation. Thus they are not ultrasonics.

[@kirmussaudio7578]

Rising bubbles then create a vacuum pulling out materials from the item being processed.

[@popcornsamurai]

What would sell me on this machine is if they went to a local $1 bin and bought a bunch of really soiled records then played it, cleaned it and played it again. I really am not concerned about my $35 dollar Analog productions records, what I want is something to clean 1950s and 60s records that sat in smoke filled rooms for 50 years.

[@leyland9999]

Bryan Dempsen I couldn’t agree more. A very dirty record is pre washed first, just using luke warm tap water with a drop or two diswashing liquid. The record, still wet by the way, is then rinsed and dried using kitchen towel, just a light pressure and in the direction of the groove, this is very important. The kitchen towel sucks up all water and contaminations. Only after this first wash the record is allowed in the Disco Antistat bath. A few turns back and forth does the trick. The record is then put aside in the rack so it can dry. During the drying time I turn the record half a turn. No traces of fluid if you do it this way. Oh, if you use your own liquid there will be no fluff that accumulates around your needle during the first play after washing the record. This is a problem with the original Disco Antistat fluid. I use the liquid three times, after the third cleaning session I discard it and fill the bath with newly mixed fluid. Records from the thrift store undego the treatment without exeption. If the record is still playable, it is treated with a new lined inner sleeve and catalogued and stored. By the way, look at the speed this machine does its work with, it takes ages.

[@OverkilledUnderdog]

Notice no power so NO ONE can prove whether it works or not.

[@kirmussaudio7578]

We recommend people buy records from garage sales. Even if scratched and dingy looking, with release agent removed, 7 times out of 10 we will also no longer hear the pop on every revolution caused by a tone arm skid. The skid mark is still visible... This as the needle now makes better contact with the pressed media with release agent removed.

[@popcornsamurai]

@@kirmussaudio7578 that’s fantastic. One issue I have right now is that I live in an apartment. And I’m concerned about the noise level of the machine.

[@kirmussaudio7578]

The machine runs at 35 KHz. The records are turned by a motor. The noise is less than a kitchen appliance. Some sonics at 25Khz needs one to wear ear protection.

[@kurtzcol]

what a tedious bunch we are

[@Nonsense62365]

I watched what he did after applying the 3 sprays on the record used his camel hair brush? a white material film emerged from the groves after which he placed it back in the plasma bubble bath at 37°C for five minutes! Did you see him wash out the brush? Meaning clean out the brush before he re-sprayed three areas of the record and used the brush to clean it? That’s the $64,000 question I have! If he did in fact clean off the brush thoroughly and prove that there was no residue from that spray in the camel hair brush! then I would thoroughly believe that there was more residue film on the record for the second time!

[@kirmussaudio7578]

The material you see appear is made visible by the colorant used in the ionizing spray that changes the charge of the record to be opposite to that of water. It shows you what the ultrasonic softened in the previous cycle. There is a rise and fall of the colorant as the process first removes the film on the record left over from prior cleaning methods that saw air, vacuum and spin dry used, then the film left on the record by the outgassing of the plasticizer while the record is in its record sleeve (for a week of 70 years), the release agent where fused into this cooling oil are dust and dirt particles that have landed on the record at the factory, causing those nasty unwanted pops in new records. Result: There are references to Charles Kirmuss and his machine and his restoration process, which takes record cleaning to another level. It's time consuming and not everyone wants to go to such lengths to achieve cleaning perfection but it's nonetheless an interesting and useful methodology that I have been skeptical about from "day one". Over time, Kirmuss has bought the tools and done the research to demonstrate the efficacy of what he does. One point I want to make about the Kirmuss system, which is that while it doesn't fan dry records and you need to use a microfiber cloth for drying, his process produces a record that's almost dry when I remove it from the water bath so drying is a quick few passes of the cloth. At the end of this review there's a demo of Kirmuss's "tin foil test", which he says separates the real cavitation machines from the ones in name only.

[@AnalogPlanet]

The comments over the past two years are often informative but also often ignorant. If you just want a quick ultrasonic cleaning, use the machine for two minutes and you are done but if you have older records that have been cleaned with many different fluids over the years, if you go through the whole process on your most cherished and often played records it's 100% WORTH DOING!!!!!!!

[@error.418]

Sure, just wish he didn't say so much bullshit like "sugar in PVC." Oils and other build-ups occur just by existing, by handling, etc. The machine, the use of alcohol, that all makes sense, his explanation doesn't.

[@kirmussaudio7578]

There are references to Charles Kirmuss and his machine and his restoration process, which takes record cleaning to another level. It's time consuming and not everyone wants to go to such lengths to achieve cleaning perfection but it's nonetheless an interesting and useful methodology that I have been skeptical about from "day one". Over time, Kirmuss has bought the tools and done the research to demonstrate the efficacy of what he does. One point I want to make about the Kirmuss system, which is that while it doesn't fan dry records and you need to use a microfiber cloth for drying, his process produces a record that's almost dry when I remove it from the water bath so drying is a quick few passes of the cloth. At the end of this review there's a demo of Kirmuss's "tin foil test", which he says separates the real cavitation machines from the ones in name only. PROOF: 1. Restoration of a Frank Sinatra Record. Mexico City Nov 2023 KirmussAudio event. Before restoration: Lots of noise. Crackles abound. Sound Muddled. The record was processed before in a 120 KHz ultrasonic. Processed 5 times. Before in a vacuum based cleaning system, so I was told. Video Before Kirmuss Processing: kzbin.info/door/q6s2TT2s7SgZu_7F1D37SQ Video After Kirmuss Restoration: Increase in signal and frequency response, pops gone. kzbin.info/www/bejne/lYO9ZmODfrWnjKM 2. From our record restoration event in Mexico City in front of Billboard Magazine and with an invitation only meeting of Discos two weeks ago held at the Margules factory, very nice of him, a record that was brought in that was processed prior with a vacuum cleaning system saw these results: Before Kirmuss; kzbin.info-L2gIqQ3nok After Kirmuss: kzbin.info_6_fhGWMBjM

[@haasmail1]

Cavitation cleaning definitely works and best at one LP per run for me, but am a complete believer that it has rescued some great stuff for me and I usually finish it on a vacuum cleaner as a final rinse.

[@rareblues78daddy]

All of his Prof. Harold Hill hyperbole aside, that is an affordable ultrasonic cleaning machine... and that's a good thing. I certainly wouldn't mind having one.

[@estebannemo1957]

rareblues78daddy Great price.

[@timolexmusic]

18:53 "just to get rid of the fungus, that's still among us" - brilliant 😂

[@LEDFOOT49]

I am a certified carpet and textile cleaner and what I learned is that the only way to get rid of alkaline meaning soap is with an acid cleaner . Acid neutralizes Alkaline. I would think using something like dish washing soap and then rinse it out with distilled vinegar of course diluted with distilled water. Some people use soap with some 70% alcohol diluted with distilled water. I’m waiting on my label saver to start doing my own research. Vinyl records are supposed to be simply cleaned and enjoy. Spending $1000’s of dollars in cleaning takes away the enjoyment. Not everybody is wealthy.

[@vinylexplorer9817]

OMG I just want to hang out and enjoy my records... I definitely don't want to go through all this madness LOL

[@kirkrogers1746]

Man, you are so right. There's always people trying to blow smoke up your arse about how you can get a better 0.0000022567 frequency respenose because yuve cleaned with the latest plasma wave cleaning device. Just enjoy the sound. xxx

[@SuperNathan29]

Agreed a quick rinse through a spin clean is as crazy as I'm getting ..lol

[@JamesT65]

My keith monks discovery one redux cleans my records to perfection. The ultrasonic method probably deteriorates the record over time.

[@idiotdrummer60]

@@JamesT65 how often do you think you'd need to clean a record? How often do you clean the same record on your Keith Monks machine?

[@trevorbraden5448]

Man im telling ya..... I get tons of hate but windex..... ive got 30 year old records ive had for years and they sound amazing

[@koylesmasterpeice]

I just use a vacuum cleaning system and have been tweaking my process as I have been learning things for years. I have not yet invested in a cavitation machine. His demonstration was fascinating and Michael asked some great questions and challenged him on a lot of things. I will be very interested in learning more about what he was saying and how much his process improves the cleaning of records over other systems. I am definitely in this hobby for the sound but also because I find all of this stuff fascinating and I love the constant learning.

[@millzee]

Ok so when does he ever clean that brush? I never see that, so it looks like the brush would be collecting the soap and it takes several attempts at scrubbing the wet record before the soap on the brush is diminished enough to stop showing up on the record. I would think you would need to make sure the brush is clean before every use or your just wasting your time, thats why the process was taking 4 or more attempts.

[@shaftman75]

Watch at 24:54 he wipes the brush on his lab coat. Hmmm? Also, I question if the "soap" shows up if he sprays the record with "antifreeze " prior to putting in the machine.

[@liquidslow]

Indeed, but how come some of the records didn't release the "soap" or whatever that foam is? It didn't look like he'd changed the brush.

[@kirmussaudio7578]

The brush is pad dried with the rabbit microfiber cloth between applications. No need for an intense cleaning. It is used to apply the ionizing agent to the record. This is not a cleaning solution, rather, the spray when applied to the record by the brush changes the charge of the record to be opposite to that of water and thus attracting to the record the effects of cavitation. Between cycles as the charge wears off, one needs to reapply the ionizing agent with the brush. Yes Between applications we only need to pad dry the brush. ....As we reapply the charge, the colorant in the spray allows us to see what the ultrasonic softened in the prior cycle by witnessing first a rise in white materials surfacing, then a decrease. It is thus where one sees first a rise, then a decrease or rapid evaporation of this whitish material that confirms to you that there is nothing else for the ultrasonic to remove. Indicating last cycle in the machine. Restored records come out virtually dry. At the end of day we mist the brush with distilled water and then pad dry with the supplied rabbit microfiber work station cloth.

[@johnlovesbridge]

Now they are telling us records are "living and breathing". That's delusional.

[@kirmussaudio7578]

Think of what happens in your car..that new car smell. The plasticizer outgasses. Creates a film on the windshield. Same with a record in a record sleeve for 1 day or 70 years. In fact scratches seen on a record may actually be on this film. The Kirmuss removes this film and hence these scratches on this outgassing film are removed.

[@ScottWayneJackson]

Ha! The words "obsessive compulsive" come to mind; I think he would keep going until all the vinyl is dissolved.

[@MaNuLaToROfficial]

lol the dudes wiping the brush on his shirt for crying out loud HILARIOUS!!!! BAHAHAHAHA

[@geirstella10]

Watching this video I am completely demoralized and feel I have to give in to my Tidal and Spotify loving friends.

[@UberPilot]

Just got mine!!!! Not pulling a lot of the "Paste" out of many records. Only the really old records. Have to try some new ones. Really impressive machine. Makes an LP sound like a CD with a black background. I have a few that are making multiple trips, but it all comes out.

[@kirmussaudio7578]

The so called paste is the colorant in the ionizing spray that allows you to see what the ultrasonic softened in the prior cycle. Rapid dissipation indicates that the record has been processed, end of cycle. Your stylus now touching the detail of the stamper.

[@migueltrevino9620]

Here's my question; He states that the solvent being used is 'just like antifreeze'. Does that mean I can put antifreeze in a spray bottle and use it to remove the residue using the same type of brush?

[@AnalogPlanet]

He seemed to say it's not exactly anti-freeze but ethylene glycol used in antifreeze: Ethylene glycol is an organic compound with the formula (CH₂OH)₂. It is mainly used for two purposes, as a raw material in the manufacture of polyester fibers and for antifreeze formulations.

[@migueltrevino9620]

Thanks for clearing that up. This is why you ask questions, right?

[@Woofy-tm8si]

Antifreeze also has other additives in it, many which are incredibly toxic and lethal to living organisms.

[@frequentlycynical642]

@@Woofy-tm8si Actually it is the EG that is toxic. My sis in law tried to kill herself with it. The additives aren't health food, but they are of lesser consequence.

[@etyrnal]

so, the spray comes out of the little sprayer, lands in a bubbly foamy pile, and we're NOT suspecting the SPRAY as being part of the cause of the soapy looking substance?? huh?

[@kirmussaudio7578]

The colorant in the ionizing spray that changes the charge if the record to be opposite to that of water to attract the effects of cavitation between cycles allows you to see what the cavitation pulled off the record and the grooves in the prior cycle. Not used as a cleaning solution, the spray when brushed onto the record changes the charge temporarily.

[@sidvicious3129]

Michael please review this product, some of his explanations sound hard to believe, but it looks like he proved his point between the first and second record that you provided, no soap. I would like to see how it stands up to your Audiodesk. Wait a minute four to five cleanings after it's been cleaned in another machine, Michael is right, you will be too tired to play them, maybe the soap is from his cleaning solution. Vinyl in the bits in the water after cleaning, how many cleanings before the surface of the record comes off. There is a huge difference in belief between this guy and The perfect vinyl forever guy at the show, that guy built his own machine and he has never mentioned in the two times that I used his service tiny bits of vinyl come off of the record, but I'm going to ask. Michael you also have never stated that small pieces of vinyl have come off of the records and sit in the bottom of the tank that you clean in the Audiodesk, could you clarify this for us Michael.

[@chrisbarnhart2032]

i know.. the vinyl bits concern me as well...

[@vestaxwax]

"A record is a living, breathing thing." - Charles Kirmuss.

[@ButtUglyJeff]

When can I buy one, so I can clean my sugar records and free them of soap?

[@utub1473]

Could you imagine how long it’d take to clean a record collection with this machine?

[@grahamlockwood6242]

If you start cleaning them when you are about 18 years old you may finish cleaning a very large collection before you die but only if you live to be 90 years old. I am all for cleaning records but cleaning an LP should not take longer than it takes to listen to it. Crazy!

[@kirmussaudio7578]

Restoration is not surface cleaning or polishing a record as mentioned by Michael Fremer in his August 2022 column in Stereophile. Restoration removes the prior films left over from prior cleaning processes, then finally the release agent. Many discoveries since 2019.

[@kirmussaudio7578]

Restoration removes the films left over from prior cleaning methods, then the film that coats the record while the record us in its sleeve as the plasticizer outgasses from the record, then the release agent. Yes the process requires three or four cycles in and out of the machine as the ionizing agent is washed off, once done, not to be repeated again. Guaranteed a 1.3 to 3 to 4 dB gain over floor and 8 to 32 % increase in frequency response. What do other processes guarantee?

[@kirmussaudio7578]

@@grahamlockwood6242 Record restoration is not surface shining. If you want to just remove surface materials and shine a record, a two minute cycle in our machine suffices.

[@markwallerich1455]

I do not believe that Mr. Kirmuss is a chemical engineer, otherwise he would know that vinyl records made since the 1960's is more chemically resistant than the cleaning references that he quotes from the 1960's. Those references are for the 78's that were previously made and still prevalent at the time. Also, ethylene glycol can be used as a wetting agent, but it is not a soap. On any vinyl record made in the past 50+ years, you can use a stronger solution of alcohol, and instead of ethylene glycol, it is more advisable to use a soap and then thoroughly rinse with distilled water. Shake off excess water, dry with a clean towel, and use a discwasher to take off the residual fibers. 😶

[@JessHull]

Thank you for being skeptical. This guy seems like a huckster, even though the machine seems to work, his rhetoric seems suspect.

[@ryanb7649]

"A record is a living breathing thing" with 20% sugar. Sweet - it's almost a cake.

[@maxcambras2813]

Mike, I left this comment on Kirmuss video you did too. Your readers need to understand how well this process works vs. vac. type machines or AudioDesk if we only do a single 5 min cycle. I was about to order this machine until I saw the demo. 20-30 min per LP would only work for rare but dirty old finds (like some old mono bluenote that was used as an ashtray). I only have at most 2 hours at most to listen every day, mainly because I need to work like a dog to afford my record and hifi addiction! This extended process is simply unrealistic for daily listening. VIEW • VIEW •

[@AnalogPlanet]

exactly

[@apollomemories7399]

Ok, so I need one shaving foam brush, some watered down shaving foam spray stuff, a box thing that vibrates with warm water in it, and some £1.50 for a 3-pack of microfibre cloths. I'm in.

[@bulldogdave]

Got mine today and already cleaned 3 records. It WORKS!

[@patrikL]

Worth buying?

[@jeffgross6649]

2 questions: 1) Have any chemists weighed in on the “sugar” claim? 2) Has Mikey ever reviewed the Vevor ultrasonic RCM?

[@error.418]

Sucrose is C12H22O11, Polyvinyl chloride is (C2H3Cl)n. There's no oxygen (O) in PVC. There's no chlorine (Cl) in sucrose. I really don't get what he's trying to pass off as being sugar in PVC... Are there hydrocarbons? Sure... does that make it a "living thing?" No.

[@ebkesq72]

PVC can be made from plant matter feedstock, including sugarcane, although it is more likely made from petrochemicals. That’s maybe where Kirmuss’ confusion comes from.

[@mikedestazador5116]

You truly have to apreciate this new entepreneurs that get to the vinyl world. You can tell this guy is not in this just for the money. He truly values our passion. Unlike those crooks at new companies like vitrola

[@airgead5391]

I bought one! Lets put it this way: a huge amount of work and a HUGE improvement in sound. I am really very impressed. I do have a very high-end high resolution system, but the difference is so big that on about any system it will be easily heard.

[@anton88ist]

Do you follow the complete procedure (as recommended) or just do the ultrasonic part of it?

[@airgead5391]

Yes, almost the complete procedure. Very last step should be rinsing with fresh distilled water; that's the only step I skip. I tried first not to go many times with the camel hair brush and the spray when needed: I can tell you that you really have to do those steps if necessary: the results are spectacular if you do.

[@kirmussaudio7578]

We remove first films from prior cleaning processes that are air, vacuum or spun dry, then the outgassing of the plasticizer while the record is in its sleeve, then finally the pressing oil. Result: 1. Restoration of a Frank Sinatra Record. Mexico City Nov 2023 KirmussAudio event. Before restoration: Lots of noise. Crackles abound. Sound Muddled. The record was processed before in a 120 KHz ultrasonic. Processed 5 times. Before in a vacuum based cleaning system, so I was told. Video Before Kirmuss Processing: kzbin.info/door/q6s2TT2s7SgZu_7F1D37SQ Video After Kirmuss Restoration: Increase in signal and frequency response, pops gone. kzbin.info/www/bejne/lYO9ZmODfrWnjKM 2. From our record restoration event in Mexico City in front of Billboard Magazine and with an invitation only meeting of Discos two weeks ago held at the Margules factory, very nice of him, a record that was brought in that was processed prior with a vacuum cleaning system saw these results: Before Kirmuss; kzbin.info-L2gIqQ3nok After Kirmuss: kzbin.info_6_fhGWMBjM @@airgead5391

[@antoniograncino3506]

Absent from this experiment/demonstration is the before and after listening test.

[@biketech60]

He had 30 minutes to play an uncleaned record, clean it , then play again. What an opportunity missed ! All tell and no show .

[@kirmussaudio7578]

At our trade shows since 2019 we have a turntable present to listen to before and after processing. At these same trade shows we see manufacturers such as Jeff Rowland Design take a record brought in by a show attendee in their demo room and process it in front of them, then play the record in their studio. Results speak for themselves

[@kirmussaudio7578]

At our shows we do before and after auditioning of records brought in. Of late we also messure the signal gain over floor. No record cleaning manufacturer warrants in dB gain over floor of what their process offers. We offer 1.3 to 3 to 4 dB gain over floor based on the provenance of the record. Removing about .84 microns of release agent.

[@trxbloke]

When he scrubs with the camel hair brush, the action of scrubbing across grooves introduces air into the moisture which shows up as white, I dont see how this can be interpreted as "something on the record" yes there is ethylene glycol on the record, he just put it there.

[@kirmussaudio7578]

The spray is an ionizing agent that changes the charge of the record to be opposite to that of water. It attracts cavitation. There is a colorant that is in the spray. When the goat hair brush is used between cycles in the machine, the colorant allows one to see what the ultrasonic softened in the prior cycle. When there is rapid evaporation of this whitish material, this let's you know that there is nothing left on the record or in the record's grooves to be removed. Records also come out virtually dry as pvc and water have the same charge.

[@hogwyild]

Michael, I think the most important thing that I have taken away from this video is to clean your records. I am not sold on this particular system or product, nonetheless I thank you for the great videos and plethora of information you have and continue to provide.

[@kirmussaudio7578]

1. Restoration of a Frank Sinatra Record. Mexico City Nov 2023 KirmussAudio event. Before restoration: Lots of noise. Crackles abound. Sound Muddled. The record was processed before in a 120 KHz ultrasonic. Processed 5 times. Before in a vacuum based cleaning system, so I was told. Video Before Kirmuss Processing: kzbin.info/door/q6s2TT2s7SgZu_7F1D37SQ Video After Kirmuss Restoration: Increase in signal and frequency response, pops gone. kzbin.info/www/bejne/lYO9ZmODfrWnjKM 2. From our record restoration event in Mexico City in front of Billboard Magazine and with an invitation only meeting of Discos two weeks ago held at the Margules factory, very nice of him, a record that was brought in that was processed prior with a vacuum cleaning system saw these results: Before Kirmuss; kzbin.info-L2gIqQ3nok After Kirmuss: kzbin.info_6_fhGWMBjM

[@UberPilot]

They are only 850?

[@markcolegrove]

Is it a record cleaner or a "soap" dispenser? Hard to tell! Personally, I love the sound of release agents.

[@andrewwilson8374]

Any reason he was using a camel brush? Any advantage over a badger or boar brush?

[@motorradmike]

Andrew Wilson Hahahaha!

Camel holds the snake oil cleaning agent better.

[@robburnside6636]

I envy you sir. This is a dream job for vinyl fans. Thank you so much for for letting us live it vicariously through your videos.

[@saint6563]

Two 'thingys' stand out: He's "cleaned" other vinyl in the solution. & He doesn't clean the brush between uses; he actually wipes the brush on his lab coat! #Questionable

[@kirmussaudio7578]

Sorry someone stole our microfiber cloth at the show

[@AB_Deck]

@@kirmussaudio7578 you only had one cloth , despite anticipating many demonstrations ?

[@kirmussaudio7578]

@@AB_Deck the video you are looking at is 4 years old. Cleaning of the brush is moot as we look fir the rise and fall of the whitish material which is what the sonic softened in the prior cycle. The spray is not a cleaning solution, rather , an ionizing spray that changes the charge of the record to be opposite to that of water to attract the effects of caviration. For more details call us at our office number. The spray is not a cleaning agent and if one uses the supplied microfiber rabbit cloth to dry the brush between cycles is immaterial as the record at the last cycle comes out virtually dry as per the Tribelectric table of charges sees both pvc and water have the same electrical charge

[@kirmussaudio7578]

@@AB_Deck the records cone out dry due to the Tribelectric table of charges and where since 2029 we no longer mist the record. Consult our 2022 materials

[@kirmussaudio7578]

Just responded to this. The brush is used to apply the ionizing agent to the record to change the charge of the record to be opposite to that of water and to attract cavitation. The brush is pad dried between applications. Used to see the rise and fall of the whitish materials appearing, part of the colorant in the ionizing spray. Only at the end of day is the applicator cleaned.

[@autofanaticcars]

Im seriously considering this over the Vpi unit

[@peter_aka_hamamass]

Too much work at explaining how it works and what it does, makes it a system that could not be as good as he says. Cleaning after cleaning, and then cleaning it again. During that, the brush is used rather violently too. But, after that, another cleaning is done. So, a half an hour in total? Ridiculous. This is a course in polishing vinyl! Total BS! Ultrasonics work, no doubt. But this is very much overdoing it! When is the vinyl ready to be listened to? And we need to listen to music, not tech! Fungus????? Crap! Play it pre-fungus, and after funguscleaning! You will not hear differences.

[@kirmussaudio7578]

The use of the spray is to change the of the record in relation to that of water. From elementary school science... Like charges repel, opposite charges attract. We take advantage of the wave created by cavitation to attract it and brush the ionizing agent in the grooves. Multiple cycles are needed as the charge induced onto the record washes off as the record spins. Pad drying the brush allows one to see when the brush is used the rise and fall of what the sonic "softened" on the prior cycle. Rapid evaporation indicates when to stop.

[@QoraxAudio]

As far as I know, only the shellac ones contain sugar, since it is made out of organic material, instead of polymers like vinyl is.

[@stillaliveandwell5291]

At 20 minutes---- every record has a spiral groove that ends near the center, so the brush should be moved inward to the run out and label not the other direction. I had one of those Watts brushes back in the 70's as well. Also earlier could not believe how much of the record he missed with his 1% ethylene glycol solution as he spread it with the camel hair brush. This may be a great system if you have 10 records, but I am suspect of the whole deal. Needs more follow up.

[@kirmussaudio7578]

The agent applied is not a cleaning agent, rather, it changes the charge of the record to be opposite to that of water. This per the Tribelectric table of charges. Indeed we should also apply it to the dead wax area, albeit not as critical as to the rest of the record.

[@kwd-kwd]

so three months ago, "ultrasonic cleaning gets everything out" now it's "ultrasonic cannot alone cannot clean your record" wow what a change..

[@cootaloot]

Three months ago he went through all of the same steps so there's no difference. At all. I'm not completely sold on his methodology but he's consistent in his message and it's wrong to say otherwise.

[@Woofy-tm8si]

Such is the downside of all progress...

[@Beatgeneration2010]

why can't we hear before and after sound wise ? It's the easiest way to satisfy the 'cleanliness' testf record's/vinyl

[@Head4Music]

That first brush is suspect. If soap is extracted from the record on to the brush. The brush would now be contaminated with soap. Then the next record that the brush is in contact with should be contaminating the record with soap. My guess he is changing brushes. That is my uneducated guess. I am not a Doctor of vinyl.

[@chris1275cc]

Its just the wetting agent being agitated by the the ultrasonic cleaner i noticed this would happen on my diy ultrasonic after a scrub if i didn't leave it it long enough.

[@taylorsharp5928]

He is rubbing the brush against the grooves to make bubbles, and then rubbing the brush parallel to the grooves to avoid making bubbles. This dude is salesman and a con

[@kirmussaudio7578]

The spray is an ionizing agent with a colorant added. First as records and water have the same electrical charge the spray which us not a cleaning agent changes the charge of the record to be opposite to that of water to attract cavitation. As the ionizing spray is reapplied to the record, appearance of whitish materials confirms to the user that the ultrasonic indeed softened materials and removed them in the prior cycle. As one processes the record over several cycles, there is visible rise, then fall of white materials being brought up by the brush. Rapid evaporation indicates that there is nothing left to remove. Last cycle in the machine. A restored record also comes out virtually dry.

[@AriKona]

I have been pondering the acquisition of an ultrasonic system. Mike, I think this is going to be it. A very well explained demonstration with many questions (at least that I had) answered. Thank you. Sidenote: Saw the origin of your name on today's word of the day. Roaring thunder. Not quite sure if it fits you personally, but if it refers to your masterful opinions, it is spot on.

[@kirmussaudio7578]

As proven using both a cavitation meter and the aluminum foill test many 120 or40 khz advertised ultrasonic cleaning machines do not use cavitation and are thus not ultrasonics. They bubble soap.

[@DrSVNarasimhan]

I have observed a strange phenomenon with regards to cleaning records with this method. It appears that they have demonstrated cleaning only new and already clean vinyls! None has ever played any dirty record before and after cleaning with this method!

[@kirmussaudio7578]

Look at the recent videos where before and after Kirmuss processing sees a gain in signal over floor if between 1.3 and 3 to 4 dB gain and 8 to 32 % increase in frequency response. This using a spectrum analyzer at the recent audio shows as well as one listening to the record.

[@vinylpenguin2651]

My issue with ultrasonic cleaners is that it's been studied that ultrasonic cleaning damages glass. While ultrasonic cleaning hasn't been studied on vinyl records it's not a far leap to say that it also damages soft vinyl. Perhaps audio companies don't go up to the same frequencies as more commercial ultrasonics but those cheap amazon ones I'd stay away from.

[@kirmussaudio7578]

Cavitation created microblubles that implode and create a void which pulls materials off the surface to be cleaned. Frequency of the ultrasonic generator driving the transducers generates different sized microblubles which in turn have a velocity measured in Cavins or watts per square centimeter. One needs to select the right Frequency to allow safe removal of the contaminants. As to records. Dirt, dust and fungus are 3 to 5 microns in size. So, in our case, we use a 35Khz ultrasonic with resonance added to even out Cavitation and prividing even cavitation from the record's edge to the dead wax area for a maximum ultrasonic load of 4 records.

[@darrenjones3784]

So basically you use this fancy machine, but still have to manually clean the record with brushes and cloths. I smell bullshit.

[@carlfuggiasco7495]

You know the more I am watching this it reminds me of Carnie Hucksters at State Fair. He changes brushes with a magician slight of hand and suddenly a new record has soap as he says. I guess I am Dubious as Michael seemed to be!

[@chipco5150]

Carnie Hucksters at the State Fair haven't been around for 80 years. But, apparently you can fill us in on the species-- so do so.

[@paulomontero12]

Snake oil salesmen. Let's all start buying CDs again and fuck this pain in the arsh vinyl!

[@hamidnia7242]

You guys need to show numbers. Just play the record on “A” system prior to cleaning with a set volume and record db that you get or dynamic range recorded by a test Mic, then clean and repeat play with same volume set and record same dB and dynamic range. Keep in mind, at the end of the day what you listen maters.

[@seedney]

yeah... pour soap on vinyl, and then "Wow, where does that came from?"...

[@thecarman3693]

Just for reference for those with other machines and bath volumes, the alcohol solution mentioned at about 3:38 comes out to roughly 5 mls of pure isopropanol (99.9%) to each litre of distilled water.

[@kirmussaudio7578]

70% IPA is not made commercially by simply diluting 99.9% alcohol with distilled water. During covid many diffferent formulas circulated. The small addition of 70% IPA used to kill dormant or live fungus is used to protect the operator.

[@sumitagg1]

When are you going to review this?

[@MrRom92DAW]

but guys! he has a lab coat!

[@therealhishaam]

Great, but how does it sound?

[@marktubeie07]

Hilarious, the BEST line at 26:25 Michael _..."of cause this actually doesn't actually leave time to play records, but who cares!"_ I lost it at that point... ! I think my supply of 'soap' at home will now come from my vinyl collection.

[@andrewwilson8374]

tubeie07 I how about "we're not going to do that" around 27:00

[@Woofy-tm8si]

At least the sort of thorough cleaning would be a one-time job, with subsequent cleanings likely being far less labor/time intensive. That said, it makes me queezy just thinking about how much time it would take to do that initial, thorough cleaning on a 200, much less 2000 LP collection.....Yeesh!

[@Hawk89gt]

So, I’ll start by saying that I’m sure sonic cleaning can help clean a record, just like anything else, but this guy comes off as a modern day snake oil salesman. He talked in circles, made stuff up, and I don’t know about soap, but think he’s full of something else that starts with S and is 4 letters in length.

[@kirmussaudio7578]

The proof... the soapy materials that come up, is actually the colorant used to see what the sonic softened, and pulled out of the record in the prior cycle.

[@biketech60]

He said the brush is camel hair , a natural fiber which can absorb liquids . When does the brush get cleaned to remove residue from it ? And what is used to clean it ? Wouldn't a synthetic brush be superior with fibers that do not absorb liquid (which can be suspended between them ) ?

[@kirmussaudio7578]

We use now a goat hair brush. Used just to apply the ionizing spray. This to change the charge of the record to be opposite to that of water. The brush is pad dried between cycles. The colorant in the spray allows one to see what the ultrasonic softened and removed in the prior cycle. Rapid dissipation of the "colorant", record restored, plus it comes out virtually dry. At the end of day the brush is misted with distilled water, then pad, then air dried. Brush and spray per say have nothing to do with cleaning, rather changing the charge of the record to be opposite to that of water to attract the effects of cavitation. Their implosions now close to the record, creates a vacuum that pulls materials of the record.

[@timmy41]

You've got a typo in your description, the URL (www.kirmussaudio.com) is missing a letter :)

[@AnalogPlanet]

thanks

[@AnalogPlanet]

fickst it

[@freekeemonkee]

Nope. The inmate stole a white coat.

[@hifitommy]

hi mikey, i am a member of the LAOCAS and have seen kirmuss' demos numerous times and am as or more skeptical of his rhetoric. he spritzes ethylene glycol on the record and then makes circular motion on the grooves which seems counterintuitive to me. all the catchwords like fungus, release compound, sugars, etc makes his explanations seem like swiss cheese, and not edible cheese at that. if his process included some chemical analyses extracted at each of his stages of additional treatment steps, i would be more convinced. i cannot see the logic in his device in comparison to the KL Audio. i know two friends that have the KL and could not be happier, one is a water purity scientist. i can imagine that if chemical analysis is performed, costs could be prohibitive. my advice is to not drop the soap. to be fair, kirmuss' pricing is apparently fair. perhaps with pure distilled would be the way to go. i don't know if you want to continue evaluating his product but i would be interested. ...hifitommy

[@hulkslayer626]

Spend thousands and countless hours perfectly cleaning/restoring/preserving your records so when you die, the next guy can say "Wow, these are like new!" Hahahaha

[@UberPilot]

It's soap, it's mold release' it's soap' it's mold release.............................what? It may or may not destroy the high frequencies...........................gotta love audio..........

[@edwincancelii2917]

That’s weird! Records made with 20% sugar?!

[@stillaliveandwell5291]

Glycol in antifreeze is a "sugar" and tastes sweet which is why they tell you to dispose of properly as dogs etc. will lick it and of course enough of it will kill an animal.

[@MustangBoss1973]

How can a record played for many many hours on many different turntables still have chemicals in the groves for the original manufacturing? After cleaning records all day the water looked so clean that it would have been fit for human consumption too.

[@stillaliveandwell5291]

I'm exhausted and the record is still not clean. Mikey only has about 50000 records, no sweat.

[@garykarlin1777]

Michael, should I be freaked out to see vinyl particles in the bottom of the tank? Could this be doing more damage than cleaning?

[@universoulistic]

Gary Karlin in my experience, a lot of new records come with those flecks of vinyl from the pressing plant.

[@kirmussaudio7578]

​@@universoulistic that is correct, caught in the release agent at the factory, now removed...

[@erikmolnar6585]

Remember that fear always works well to get you to buy the solution. Is this guy correct? He definately presents it well.

[@simonhebert7069]

"Janette veut savoir" at 21:10 ...!!! Janette Bertrand in a chat about record cleaning... Wow... The circle of life... Tout est dans tout... LOL... That made my day!

[@yambo59]

I used to work in a plastics plant and 99% of our pellets of all kinds were derived from petroleum products with variations of course - according to the bags they came in, never saw sugar mentioned maybe record vinyl is different.

[@kirmussaudio7578]

Soy is being used as a filler in some plastics used for records.

[@fernarias]

When you watch videos of companies making records, you know that there is no release agent (the record is released before it's fully hardened). The pvc is said to be pure, virgin pvc.

[@frequentlycynical642]

You are a fool. "Pure, virgin PVC" is hard, think water pipes. PVC is the starting point and then there are additives, including, yes, a release agent.

[@UberPilot]

Did the AudioDesk just get thrown under the bus at 22:25? It left fungus and water marks? Yikes.........

[@JingoLoBa57]

Why don’t record shops offer record cleaning laundry services using such machines. I’d pay to use such as service for a reasonable price...

[@floriankeller]

I guess the cost of the machine, the liquids plus the labor time would add up a cleaning-price for each record that nobody would like to pay. If you are willing to buy such a thing for yourself to spend months & years to clean already good sounding records you already excluded the price of your own time.

[@rareblues78daddy]

Back when the VPI machines were hot shit, my local record shop offered cleaning services, but the price they charged was prohibitive. I think the owner was just trying to recoup the money he spent on his personal unit.

[@haasmail1]

There is a service on line. They ship you the box to ship to them...etc... saw it on one of Michael's recent video's of a show. look it up or ask Michael

[@JingoLoBa57]

J H found them online thanks

[@haasmail1]

That is great. Can you share the link?

[@bbutler5090]

On the off chance that you check this still, Michael do you still recommend this device? (I read your review in Stereophile.) Anyone else have an opinion? I really want a Degritter, but the $3k sticker price gives me pause.

[@DjPhaseFour]

All this seems cool but I want to see independently done before and after microscope pictures.

[@RaviGaur]

I have got the Cleaning system from Charles, after a show last year. I wish I had seen this video earlier. I have cleaned my records with the machine. But some of my records do produce Foam after applying the Agent. and I though that I was part of the Solution. and its Solution creating the Foam. But Point is not all of them released foam I recall. I need to try cleaning couple of my records again. and By the way I have run 30 minutes cycle of some of the old records and I never Saw and vinyl residue in the Tank.

[@UberPilot]

Can anyone confirm that this machine is a breakthrough product? It does seem like all the other ultrasonic machines are on sale now. Anyone own one? Seems like a deal for the money. Any advice is appreciated.

[@kirmussaudio7578]

Our unique process where we apply a charge on the record to be opposite to that of water that in turn attracts the effects of cavitation is the only known process to remove the record's release agent. That is why you will note where we need to reapply the ionizing agent to the record over several cycles as the induced charge washes off as the record spins in the machine. Each time we reapply the spray, we see a rise and fall if a whitish material appear. This is the colorant in the spray. This allows one to see what the ultrasonic softened in the prior cycle. A rapid evaporation let's you know that there is nothing left to remove from the record, last cycle. Also a restored record comes out virtually dry.

[@jeffgillan3310]

I have to think this will be one of Mikey's most-anticipated reviews, once he gets his hands on Mr. Kirmuss' cleaner. I just want to know if the thing works. I'm a bit put-off by spraying something on the vinyl, with little protection for the label. I also wonder if the soaping issue we see is simply the function of rubbing his substance on the vinyl. I don't think he's a snake oil salesman; he seems earnest and believes in what he is selling. Seems like a good guy, and I applaud him for bringing something more affordable to market. If I had $4 grand, maybe I'd spring for an Audio Systeme cleaner. Since I sit in the cheap seats, anything affordable gets my attention because I would like to move into ultrasonic cleaning. So, I am very interested in Mr. Fremer's assessment, especially since he has access to any cleaning system he would like. (By the way, big fan, Michael. I enjoy your work.)

[@kirmussaudio7578]

The spray is an ionizing agent. The Tribelectric table of charges states that both water and PVC have the same electrical charge. They repel. Further, the size of a water droplet is between 100 and 120 microns when compared to a record groove of 6 x 35-45 microns u shape. Spray applied changes the charge of the record to be opposite to that of water, attracting cavitation. The Spray nor the machine's water can touch the label. The colorant in the spray allows one to see what the ultrasonic softened in the prior cycle. Rapid dissipation indicates to the user where there is nothing else to remove, record restored. The needle now is riding the detail as pressed by the stamper. Depending on the provenance of the record, a 1.3 to 3 to 4 dB gain over floor and 8 to 32% gain in frequency response is realized.

[@gilrath3256]

Where can I buy that Anti-Freeze like solution from? I already have an Ultrasonic Cleaner. Do I have to use only this particular Record Cleaning Machine with the AntiFreeze?

[@kirmussaudio7578]

Not antifreeze. With the patent issued, it is propanediol 1,-2-178.

[@nicholascremato]

The record companies said there is no release agent on the machine parts. They didn't say there wasn't a release agent on or in the record. Common business practice!

[@kirmussaudio7578]

When the PVC biscuit is heated, and the record is being pressed, the record pops out as there is a natural lubricant that surfaces. It can be measured. The Shure Brothers in 1977 discovered this when their V15 Mak IV came out. In 1978 they provided a brush that attached to the tonearm. They saw where no cleaning process could remove this "pressing oil : as they termed it..

[@williamsharp5973]

That foaming attributed to 'soap' could have come from a surfactant/detergent used previously, possibly used in too high of a concentration, but in any case not completely removed before the vinyl dried. It dried on the vinyl, and then reactivated when it solution was added to wet it again. Anything that is left on the vinyl is a solid, which the stylus must encounter. A film is a solid. No way I'm going to believe that anything on the vinyl that does not belong there is not going to have a consequence to the sound. Anything that is on the surface and, especially in the grooves, and not just sitting there loose, can also be stuck there, either mechanically or chemically, in a way that does not permit a detergent to work as it would normally. I would think this is where the ultrasonic blasting could help. In any case, one should never apply anything that does not get completely removed. As for ''drying', no solution with any solids remaining in it (in suspension) should be permitted to dry on the vinyl. I use a vacuum to remove the wet solution, at that point a third rinse of pure water, and this dries the vinyl. The only thing left behind -should- be anything in the grooves that remained chemically or mechanically stuck. Also, a 'new' as in never before played record can have a lot of issues, depending on how it's been stored, starting with whether or not it's still sealed.

[@kirmussaudio7578]

The white material is what the ultrasonic softened in the prior cycle. The goat hair brush brings this up. When this material is seen to evaporate or dissappear, that is the last cycle in the machine. New records of 15 years or earlier do not in general use the same pvc mix, so we use a fixed process of one 5 minute cycle, four 2 minute cycles and one 5 minute cycle to process a record.

[@lorddarphyve]

Where can I actually buy this thing. His website is awful.

[@popcornsamurai]

In the USA it is on sale at soundstagedirect.com

[@ericdutt3582]

... "of course this doesn't actually leave time to play records... but who cares" :-)

[@robertshanks3674]

the dude interviewing should shut his yap and not interrupt.....minor point, if the interviewer would have been actually listening to Mr. Kirmuss, instead of cracking wise, he explains ad nauseam what the "soap" is...jesus ..UPDATE: Ive had my machine about a month....i can tell you Mr. K's system is the real deal!

[@travis4619]

Is the "soap" due to putting the record in machine for the first cycle - meaning the contaminants on the record came from the contaminants in cleaning machine that ultimately came from other records? Did the first cycle cause the record to be dirtier that it was to begin with?

[@Agamemnon2]

The argument that somehow a brand new record would be contaminated by fungus or something strikes me as very dubious.

[@StopMoColorado]

If this were the case, the record would continue to be "soapy"/foamy, but they improve after multiple washings, so...no.

[@StopMoColorado]

Agamemnon2 ~ Fungus can grow overnight, especially in more humid climes.

[@Woofy-tm8si]

And the air we breathe is full of fungus and other particulates that it feeds on. Sourdough bread and most cheeses are derived from airborne fungus.

[@alwaysexpandinghorizons6173]

An extensive testing and comparing with the 'Gläss Audio Vinyl Record Cleaner' would be highly appreciated

[@MrNicks-gn8jc]

Something like this exists online in a 2 part, long write up by a man who has shared a last name with a Beatles' song.......Eleanor ..... :)