If The Nazis Won El Alamein | Hitler Rules Until The 1950s And Spain & Turkey Join Axis Powers

[@HistoryUndone-s4r]

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[@farmerjon360]

@@HistoryUndone-s4r would you be willing to do "what if Germany won the 1st battle of the marne?"

[@kulio1214]

Don't stop these episodes. Excellent maps and details on troop positions.

[@RBCharger]

Another great episode of What If. I own and read the book Rommel Papers, and I have played this battle in video games. It would have been very hard for the Axis to come up with a decisive win at El Alamein considering their shortages of . . . everything.

[@Statalyzer]

Once Auchinlek stopped them, it was over. And even if he hadn't, they'd have had to deal with Torch behind them anyway.

[@guru47pi]

I'm kind of surprised they didn't mention in the setup that the Germans and Italians would need to be able to supply their army not just to win at El Alamein, but to hold the territory afterwards. This means they must control Malta and at least the Mediterranean between sicily and Libya. Capture of the naval bases at Malta, Alexandria, and Suez mean that the axis could control the Mediterranean with a few artillery pieces on the Moroccan side of Gibraltar. That said, they're doing a TV show, and need to focus the scope and I understand. Perhaps they said it so quickly I missed it

[@kevinbrennan-ji1so]

Good on Chris Perry to note the importance of Malta. It was a major failure of the German and Italian high commands to not place enough priority in eliminating that threat to their supply structure. Mussolini wanted to take care of it in June of 1942, but it should have been dealt with far earlier. Rommel had no chance of victory with the logistical avalanche poised against him.

[@SafetyProMalta]

Malta should have been Crete. In 1940 the island was a much easier proposition.

[@kevinbrennan-ji1so]

@@SafetyProMalta Dunno about that. Crete was very important to protect southern Greece from invasion. But perhaps they should have moved on Malta 4-to-6 weeks after securing Crete as the British were on their heels. So I agree with you in principal, but not at the expense of taking Crete.

[@jeremyraftos2791]

absolutely, if Malta was taken their supply routes would have been far safer and the german airforce and u boats could have operated with impunity.

[@joepetty2304]

Great fun discussion. Thank you

[@TzunSu]

I liked this episode a lot more than some of the earlier ones! You spend a lot more time talking about the "History undone" part, which is primarily why i watch it. More of this please!

[@elliotlane3225]

Great discussion of the actual events and the 'what if' counterfactuals of a really pivotal battle.

[@Vandelberger]

Really loving the channel! Better thought out analysis than most of these type of programs. I find the reason the Axis didn’t take Malta was maybe due to the hard won victory over Crete and lack of landing craft to take Malta. Just a theory.

[@flashgordon6670]

A Fantastic What if, Ty gentlemen.

[@brucesim2003]

5th Panzer was NOT in Tunisia at the time of El Alamein. Stab Nehring became LXXXX. Armeekorps on the 17th of November 1942; two weeks later it was designated 5 Panzer Army. This all happened in Rome, and was an army in name only.

[@nigellawson8610]

You are correct on that note.

[@ClimateScepticSceptic-ub2rg]

Nice to find someone even more pedantic than myself.

[@brucesim2003]

@@ClimateScepticSceptic-ub2rg There is no pedantism. Merely a correction of facts that were miss-stated in the video.

[@SaladeGuerraSdG]

Well said, and the British were NOT pushed back from Tripoli, but from El Agheila

[@jonathannowak3649]

I enjoy James Hanson's rather expressive right eyebrow.

[@Brodrick32]

a life of it's own, i cannot un-see it now every time i watch him.

[@elliotlane3225]

Looking forward to it. What about episodes on: What if the English didnt break up the Spanish Armanda? What if Wolfe failed at Quebec? What if Operation Huskey failed?

[@fett333]

I love visiting Qubec City - it’s got old world charm with people speaking French without all the rudeness u get in Paris 55:24 😉

[@tonyb9221]

The French Revolution would have come over to Quebec Not that sorry in retrospect that France lost

[@eisensturm2199]

Been watching a couple of these, very good work.

[@robertdickson9319]

The "Undone" part of this particular battle should also have had a discussion regarding the preceding 4 months after the fall of Tobruk. Rommel's position in the 2nd Battle of El Alamein is significantly affected by the 1st Battle of El Alamein in July and the failure to take Malta via Operation Herkules immediately after Tobruk. If Malta falls prior to Rommel pushing into Egypt then his supply lines look alot better. A better rested and resupplied Afrika Korps could conceivably have done better in the 1st El Alamein battle and from there......

[@johnanita9251]

I totally agree. Postponing operation Hercules is in hindsight a very big mistake...

[@Statalyzer]

The time to take Malta was the previous year when he first advocated for it. Pausing for months after Gazala and Tobruck means all the forces that were there for Supercharge are there for the new hypothetical 1st Alamein, which probably never happens anyway because of Torch.

[@KingRat71]

The Italian troops were good. It was the Italian officers who were appopinted due to being aristocrats who were terrible. When you put German officers in chareg of Italian troops the Italian troops performed just fine.

[@torikeqi8710]

Italian troops were terrible and the officers were good

[@flashgordon6670]

Yeah just fine at losing a bit slower. What have we got to compare the Italians with, pre WW2, the Abyssinians? Chucking spears at biplanes dropping mustard gas, not much of a precedence isn’t it?

[@rogerbogh3884]

I think this is the best one yet. Well done...

[@charleswhitfield8915]

You should do one of what would have happened if Britain hadn’t cracked the enigma code -

[@robertmarsh3588]

Tony Blair was Prime Minister for 10 years, Hilter was Chancellor for 12.

[@johnhehir508]

Hitler admitted trying to destroy Britain, Tony Blair pretending he was not 🤔🙊🙉🙈😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@markkirby9531]

I'm confused. Chris Parry made multiple references to Churchill and the Yalta Conference. But that took place in February of 1945. Even if he meant to say the Tehran Conference, that took place in November of 1943. SO I'm not sure what he was thinking of with those references.

[@jamesharris3645]

i think they mean the Second Moscow conference

[@markkirby9531]

@@jamesharris3645 OK, thanks, that makes more sense, especially since he was in North Africa before and after that trip to Moscow.

[@odysseus2656]

El Alamein was where the coastal plain narrowed, that is why it was chosen as the place to stop Rommel.

[@derekclements5682]

The loss of the Australian 9th division would have consequences in New Guinea

[@johnnydavis5896]

The one way a breakout of Stalingrad might happen is the Russians divert forces opening the way. But the main probably is the southern army can link with Turkey and Germans coming from the south and does not have to withdraw.

[@pablopeter3564]

EXCELLENT - EXCELLENT - EXCELLENT. Thanks very much, ii is utmost interesting.

[@grumpyoldman-21]

the african campaign was always a sideshow to okw, they did have plans for a airborne invasion of malta, but the battle of crete put a dampener on that, if hitler had delayed barbarossa a year and focused on this and other 'sideshows' (like the battle of Britain and the atlantic) who knows what would have happened

[@Sean-p3o]

My 8th Army veteran Grandfather told me in the mid 80s That he didn’t know know he had bothered when speaking about the state of the country

[@davidrobertson5996]

Yahoo! Great to see this one. Thanks for posting it!

[@nielskoester4065]

Can someone explain to me why Montgomery is so hyped? - After El Alamein, he failed to effectively pursue and eliminate the retreating Axis forces. - In Sicily, without Patton and the US Army, he wouldn't have covered himself in glory. - In Normandy, he failed to achieve the objectives within the timeline, such as capturing Caen. - And in Arnhem, he narrowly avoided disaster. The final operational goal, namely the capture of the Ruhr area, was not achieved. And all of this usually from a position of material superiority. In my opinion, Montgomery is totally overrated by the British. With the advantages in material, personnel, and intelligence (Ultra), any capable German, Russian or US general would have gone a way further.

[@Statalyzer]

He gets all the credit for Alamein even though Auchinlek had already stopped the AK cold there.

[@brianmacadam4793]

Monty was overly cautious as a rule, there ARE times for caution, but also for taking RISKS. Monty never took risks.

[@Bullet-Tooth-Tony-]

@nielskoester4065 "In Normandy, he failed to achieve the objectives within the timeline, such as capturing Caen. " The only official phase line that Monty and Bradley would agree to before the Normandy invasion was to be on the Seine by D+90 , they managed it with days to spare.

[@Bullet-Tooth-Tony-]

@@brianmacadam4793 His proposal for the narrow front plan with 40 divisions in August 1944 was throwing caution to the wind.

[@Bullet-Tooth-Tony-]

@nielskoester4065 "In Sicily, without Patton and the US Army, he wouldn't have covered himself in glory." Yet it was Monty's Eighth army that took on the brunt of the German forces at Catania while Patton faced the Italians.

[@TheLucanicLord]

In effect the Eastern front & North Africa were two wings of one battle with a big lake in the middle.

[@derekclements5682]

Wansee conference was early 42 6 months before the battle and they talked what they had done up to then. There were Jewish internment camps in french colonies and Tunisia before 1942

[@FrederickHopkins-xb6me]

The Japanese also thought their codes were unbreakable.

[@stevenrowlandson9650]

What if the Italians had their act together when it comes to economy, military doctrines, training and technology?

[@MM22966]

Don't talk crazy.

[@fett333]

Might as well talk about aliens coming down from space to intervene on the side of the Axis 😉

[@MM22966]

@@fett333 There's a comic for that.

[@TheLucanicLord]

This is supposed to be alt history, not fantasy.

[@TheLucanicLord]

@@fett333 If you aren't a Harry Turtledove fan, you should be.

[@jmullner76]

Good episode, you should try Guadalcanal for an show.

[@tosearch4u]

I've heard a great many adjectives used to describe Montgomery, "charismatic " isnt one of them

[@japhfo]

For the allied troops of 8th Army, he was inspiring. With his quirky mannerisms , he allowed himself to be a figure of fun but the confidence he displayed, his informality, and insistence on keeping the men informed was re-assuring and ultimately inspiring.

[@kevinmcinerney1959]

It was a particular kind of charisma I guess. He was a little strange, a little narcissistic, and all his "we're going to knock them for six" metaphors were probably more successful in his mind than they were in reality. Nevertheless he turned around morale very quickly with his energy and positivity.

[@calistudent6335]

Seems baffling that the Germans couldn't build up a logistical train to Greece, a fleet of small supply boats, and position enough planes there to defeat the RN.

[@davidlavigne207]

Interesting discussion. Hitler missed an opportunity here by not reinforcing the Afrika Corps and not supporting his Italian allies better. Everyone knows about his invasion of the Soviet Union, but what were the soldiers he had stationed in Western Europe doing? Why did he not send more of these units to Africa? I think they could have made some difference to the odds in the desert rather than being essentially tourists in France, Belgium the Netherlands et. all.

[@jamesharris3645]

Yalta was in German hands in 1942 as that was in the Crimea ? do you mean the Second Moscow conference ?

[@colm-u8m]

Best thing on you tube. Thank you.

[@hastekulvaati9681]

I think this is a case of the studio making the right call. The crew in the first pilot seemed terribly generic.

[@jonm2438]

Love this show!

[@paulwood6729]

The editing of the Setting the Scene is terrible. Just leave it on the map level so the viewer can follow where the speaker is pointing to. Many areas are missed entirely.

[@nuancolar7304]

It could be argued that Hitler lost the African campaign due to his own decisions. When Hitler launched Babarossa, he committed the bulk of Germany's military to the Russian front. Even before El Alamein, Rommel wrestled with Berlin to keep his supply going so that he could maintain his advantage in Africa. But once the Russian front was going, Rommel's supply dwindled and he barely received enough support to keep his forces at station. With proper supply, Rommel might have bounced back from El Alamein, but it resulted in losses Rommel could not replace. That said, the British should be rightfully credited with actions that also impacted the German supply lines and tactical decisions that enabled them to face the Germans on good ground.

[@kenruble5292]

Did the Axis ever break Allied codes?

[@Jakob_DK]

Would advance towards the Gulf and Iran have limited supplies to Stalingrad? Or made it irrelevant?

[@billyclark4564]

I have a what if topic. What would the Axis had worked closer together. What if Germany had built an industrial base in Italy.

[@swblade6190]

I think if the Germans had managed to get the Spanish and the Ukranians on board, plus more importantly got the Japanese to hit the Soviets in December 41 rather than the US then I truly think that would have proved pivotal

[@kennethrobbins829]

"This is not the end, it is not the beginning of the end. it is merely the end of the beginning." W Churchill.

[@panzerdeal8727]

Turkey could have added some 4 million men to the fight had they joined the Axis...

[@johnhehir508]

Those Arab countries were considered by the Turkish as a lower class ,and are not Turkish speaking people,

[@clayengle3436]

wasn't Patton the general in charge when they landed in Casablanca? If Rommel would have won, would he have been able to hold off Patton?

[@timkelly4173]

Had Germany controlled the Caucasus and the middle east I believe they would eventually struggle governing and controlling the regions as the local inhabitante tend to be a tad difficult. American industrial power would tip the scales as the axis become overstretched. The Manhattan protect would still have the final say in 1945-46. If one imagines Germany developing the bomb contemporaneously with the Americans the late 1940'S and 1950'S look very diffdrent.

[@rogerparkhurst5796]

The atomic bomb would have had a more international aspect then just Japanese,

[@DamonNomad82]

13:58 In other words, Monty became a household name because "Gott got got!"

[@johnhehir508]

Turkey had changed its political system from a sultan to democracy

[@derekclements5682]

Yalta wasn't till 1945???? Yalta was in German hand at that time as he says later

[@rogerparkhurst5796]

How would the USSR been configured?

[@rogerparkhurst5796]

Agreed with the Pax Romana@

[@marting1056]

But you are talking about the 2nd battle of El Alamein. the decision fell in the first!

[@davethompson3326]

The Med and N Africa were part of the agreed Italian sphere, so not high on Hitler's Radar. He had been forced into a time devouring change in strategic direction once to bail out Mussolini in Greece, then had to send a corps to Libya to rescue him again. He probably had little regard for the Italian forces in general by this time, given their dreadful performance against "inferior" forces in Greece, N and E Africa. The best he was probably hoping for was no further Italian collapses that would require further drain of resources. Air and Naval adventures had not remotely gone as well as land based ops for him, Norway had lost him a fair amount of the Kriegsmarine, which had always been the poor relation to the Heer in his eyes anyway. Airborne ops had proved a mixed blessing, some success in Norway and on the Meuse, but some blistering casualties among elite units, first in their attempt to capture the Dutch Government and more notably in Crete. He was very unlikely to risk them again, except perhaps if a golden opportunity arose against his priority target to the east.

[@jackrosario9990]

"we have" "we are"?

[@rogerparkhurst5796]

More important, what if the Germans had decided to delay Barbarossa and put all their effort in North Africa and push the Italians to use their Med fleet more effectively along with Vichy French Fleet in the Med!!!

[@Statalyzer]

With what Vichy French Fleet?

[@kimmoj2570]

In this video what if really flies. 😅

[@jonathannowak3649]

This should be on Dan Snow's History Hit!

[@martinpakes5436]

He's not keen on counter-factuals

[@kevinobrien2311]

WW II Montgomery militarily channeled USA Civil War's George B McClellan even through Market Garden analogous to Antietam

[@philipebbrell2793]

Every country had a paratrooper battle disaster.

[@fett333]

McClellan’s mustache was much cooler 😉

[@alantasker925]

How about a what if Hitler had not done what he did with the jews. What could he have done then with a bigger army then

[@flashgordon6670]

WHAT IF GUY FAWKES SUCCEEDED!?

[@Sean-p3o]

Without America we would have had to have sought terms

[@simonCX]

I like this series but wish you would go to those critical decisions you talked about at the start. This video didn’t have it. Very disappointing. Just what if Rommel won. And the consequences. You would be better served by looking at the campaign in terms of questions like (a) what if the enigma code hadn’t been broken (b) what if they had taken Malta, (c) what if they had got more resources into North Africa, etc. What impact would those have had on the campaign? Rommel was starved of resources. If he had more resources, would it have made the difference and caused him to win? A really opportunity missed on this video.

[@ramonruijgt4532]

did not know how important the battle was befor. basicly best placeto hold them or you never get another change to.

[@josephstewart516]

Ah come on ,north Africa is a side show

[@darbyohara]

Monty was a joke. Terrible general. He orchestrated the disaster of market garden and n africa anyone could win when they have a numerical, munitions, supply, and air advantage vs an opponent who barely had 2 weeks of fuel

[@dusandinic2649]

Blair was longer in power than Hitler, Churchill and Stalin met in Yalta in 1942, the final solution has not been talked about at a time of battle at EA, that happens with the Wannsee Conference?? Well, someone needs a factchecker here obviously..

[@Ganiscol]

Or you just listen more carefully.

[@dusandinic2649]

@@Ganiscol So Hitler was less time in power than TB?

[@jackaubrey8435]

@@dusandinic2649 Yep.

[@jackaubrey8435]

@@Ganiscol Spot on - all mentioned.

[@Trecesolotienesdos]

Blair was pm for the 10 years. Hitler was fuhrer for 12 years. Stop making realities your head

[@madaro504]

SA less than useless

[@SAS1122334455]

this “rear”admiral needs to learn do not interrupt other guest

[@jackaubrey8435]

The other guy was on video - difficult with delayed timing.