If We Are Animals, Where Is Morality?

[@Nymaz]

I love how the caller, a Christian who claims that morality comes from the Christian God, gave as an example of good Gandhi (a polytheistic non-Christian) and as an example of evil Hitler (a Christian).

[@chaotickreg7024]

I've heard arguments that Ghandi also did genocide. I think the only point that anti-atheists get when they play this game is Lenin, and then they lose by a landslide.

[@PatrickWDunne]

I know that the idea of whether Hitler was a Christian or not is up for debate, but the same can't be said for modern Nazis. For example, Nick Fuentes is pretty openly Christian and says stuff like "Jesus is King." Isaac Anderson, the son of preacher Steven Anderson, is a full-blown Nazi. The KZbinr Dead Domain did a great video on them. Isaac even showed up in the comments and explained that the Bible does indeed support his Nazi views because of all the genocide in it.

[@cm9241]

​@@chaotickreg7024that's not even a point for them even, unless you want to attempt to argue that atheism is responsible for every atrocity in Russia post revolution

[@Dan-friend.of.the.forest]

@@chaotickreg7024 What are you talking about? Lennon was always an activist for peace. Just Imagine and Give Peace a chance!

[@sidecarmisanthrope5927]

@@Dan-friend.of.the.forest True but if you listen to the words of Imagine. He is advocating that there is no god. That my friend, is a revolutionary idea to many.

[@johnthomas2106]

Morals are an evolutionary survival mechanism. Working cooperatively is a survival strategy. Less moral creatures die off

[@gergelymagyarosi9285]

The sad part: this is not some recent discovery. This should be common knowledge, taught in schools. Yet, theist prop up the morality question every time, like it's the ultimate argument for God.

[@wilhelmschmidt7240]

It's pretty obvious that any social animal needs some degree of behavioral standards to function. Just another example of religion removing people's ability to think and understand basic things.

[@ChrisLee-yr7tz]

...and this is so blindingly obvious as well. Evolution is so beautifully simple. I don't understand why they don't understand.

[@democrat7441]

Nice lack of research

[@drg8687]

So snakes die off? Sharks die off? I don't think so.

[@rkochamp07]

There’s a video online that shows a seal trying to save a diver because it thought he was drowning. And when he couldn’t do it alone it literally got more seals to come and they worked together to try and bring the diver to the surface. So clearly even “animals” have shown that they have a sense of morality

[@heinshaaine8153]

We tested dozens of species and many of them gave a food to another individual for no benefit of their own.

[@heinshaaine8153]

@@frompartsunknown687 The problem is that your god (the fictional god of the bible) isnt moral. He allows slavery, ordered several genocides, ordered moses troups to rape young women after murdering their families, genocides a whole generation of egyptian babies for no reason, killed every living being on the planet in a flood, fucked with the people who build the tower of babel for no reason than envy., created hell, where he tortures people for no reason.. the list goes on and on. Even if your mythology was real, then your god would be a monster and not moral.

[@rkochamp07]

@@frompartsunknown687anything the bible says is just a claim. There’s zero evidence that proves anything in the bible is true.

[@holgerlubotzki3469]

Bravely bold Sir NEPPY Rode forth from his basement. He was not afraid to lose, Oh brave Sir NEPPY. He was not at all afraid To be shamed in silly ways. Brave, brave, brave, brave Sir NEPPY. He was not in the least bit scared To be laughed at in public. Or to have his brain flayed out, And his logic broken. To have his fallacies split And his self esteem burned away, And his credibility all hacked and mangled Brave Sir NEPPY. His lies smashed in And his hatred cut out And his logic removed And his banality unplugged And his nonsense raped And his rebuttals burnt off And his penis (Phallusees?) "That's, that's enough music for now lads, there's dirty work afoot." Brave Sir NEPPY ran away. ("No!") Bravely ran away away. ("I didn't!") When logic reared it's ugly head, He bravely turned his tail and fled. ("I never!") Yes, brave Sir NEPPY turned about from the debate he chickened out. ("You're lying!") Swiftly taking to his feet, He beat a very brave retreat. Bravest of the brave, Sir NEPPY!

[@georgeandrews1394]

​@@frompartsunknown687 What does that have to do with anything? Even if we assume for a moment that's true, it doesn't mean animals don't have morality or even that humans aren't animals. I could make a sculpture out of clay that looks kind of like me, but it's still a clay sculpture in the end.

[@johnsperry9494]

When I was 5 or 6 years old, my parents gave me books about Aesop’s fables, Mother Goose stories, Fairy tales, etc., and almost all of those stories had talking animals. I asked my Dad if animals can really talk, and he told me that it was make-believe (which I later labeled Suspended disbelief). I put those books on my make-believe shelf, along with Mickey Mouse, Peter Rabbit, and Winnie the Pooh. One day my Presbyterian grandmother gave me a book of Bible stories for children. In the very first story, I found a talking snake. That book went straight to the make-believe shelf, where it has remained for over 65 years.

[@josephmother2659]

Funny story and that’s exactly what I would have done

[@ChismesLiterarios2024]

I love your comment! You said the concept very well!!!

[@kadda1212]

Then again the animals in fables, e.g. Aesop's fables, are represantations of humans. Maybe the same applies to the talking snake in the Bible. This is ancient storytelling, it has other genres than we have today. Ancient stories are often timeless (fables, etiologies, fairytales...) while modern stories are set in a certain time and space (reports, novels, ...). The interpretation of the talking snake that made most sense to me was that it functions in the same way an inner monologue would in a novel. It's just an outward dialogue with a highly symbolic animal. Read it was if the woman, i.e. Eve, contemplates with herself and it makes so much more sense as a story. I am working in a kindergarten. If a child came to me after reading a story with a talking animal and asked if animals could talk, that would be an amazing prompt for an educational project. But actually the better thing is to answer with a question "What do you think?" and let the child think about it. If they say "No, I don't think so." (or maybe it would think about how animals can communicate in other ways) I could ask the next question "So why do the animals in the story talk?" and maybe the child would get behind the deeper meaning of it. Just to respond with "It's make-belief" isn't very co-constructional. 😅 And I am rambling a bit now. But this is how we are supposed to work today in education through co-construction.

[@alejandroberrios4756]

@@kadda1212 you make some good points in that with ancient text it may not be the best approach to take these fantastical stories literally because then you can lose sight of the larger point being made, but the problem is the believers of these ancient texts who spread them across the world by any means necessary did mostly believe that these stories were literally true. And if you believe that the Bible is a source of truth especially about its God, then you have a tall task in trying to differentiate the parts which should be taken literally true versus the parts that are more metaphorical and allegorical. Especially when trying to convince non-believers because as a non-believer my issue would be that this book is the source of your belief as opposed to any other text, so if you don’t believe it’s all true or that it’s mostly or just partly allegorical, well then what use is it? Wisdom veiled in allegory is fine but I’m much more concerned with what is actually true, and why one’s god would write behind allegory instead of just speaking factual truths doesn’t jive with me. Don’t get cute with a serpent talking to someone when you’re really trying to say the serpent is actually the woman’s inner monologue, just plainly say it’s her inner monologue and boom, no confusion.

[@phyllis9750]

​@@kadda1212 No kid knows that. They take things at face value.

[@NeutralMjolkHotel]

These two may be my favourite combo of hosts. Forrest’s biology knowledge and Jmike’s philosophical chops compliment eachother so well. Chef kiss.

[@alamunez]

* complement But yes, fully agree!

[@docmartin9489]

Agree. These two are great together

[@d_camara]

SR and forrest is my favorite combo; always a good time, but this one is the 2nd best to me for sure

[@nixon2tube]

Forrest and almost anyone. Forest is great at logic in addition to the biology.

[@whatabouttheearth]

Gawd, he looks like a philosopher Dare I say, he looks like a depiction of a certain cult leader Rabbi from Palestine about 2000 years ago 😂 with a flannel

[@kirklarson4536]

Where do they get this "If you're atheist, nothing you do matters"? If you are the agent of your life, unbound to dogma, what you do is ALL that matters. You are responsible for your actions. Morality comes from reason and empathy whether you realize it or not.

[@matthewpopow6647]

I think it comes down to fear. If they WON'T be getting their carrot or stick at the end... whats the point. I personally went through that way early in my trip out of catholicism. If I were to reach, I'd be willing to say those are most of the atheist they interact with. Those early in their trip.

[@kirklarson4536]

@@ConontheBinarian Close enough. Better than "I understand you are in pain and either I don't care or that's how I get my kicks."

[@nsf001-3]

And this is why Existentialists ruined Nihilism because it imbued the collective consciousness with this idea that existence having no innate or lasting meaning is anything but a possibility to create your own meaning. As The Dude would say "that must be exhausting"

[@frompartsunknown687]

No, what you do doesn't matter because it will fade away & be lost forever, as if it never happened. We are simply temporarily surviving in our temporary free will. True “life” begins in Heaven where “life” is eternal and “lasting.” It cannot be taken away. My PRICELESS free advice is that your free will is temporary and you should not limit yourself to focusing on this temporary sliver of time on earth, when eternity should overwhelmingly be your focus. Your TEMPORARY free will expires at your last gasp on earth. YOU CAN"T AFFORD TO GET THIS WRONG! 100 trillion yrs from now, you'll still be in hell - never to escape.

[@ajclements4627]

@@frompartsunknown687 Still waiting for you to present evidence for any of that copy pasted rant.

[@satyestru]

Levi was great as a caller. So many people have called in to AXP and The Line's Sunday Show and been belligerent and bullheaded. Levi was respectful and probably tried to listen, even if he didn't get it in the end. I think Forrest and JMike hit the wall of his indoctrination, but props to you, Levi, and I hope you call again.

[@shmuwee]

Typical canadian eh

[@satyestru]

What're you talking aboot?@@shmuwee

[@lmnop1022]

I recall seeing a Nat Geographic program showing groups of Chimpanzees in the wild. These animals showed genuine compassion for each other, sharing possessions, sharing food, etc. Please don't tell me they behave this way because of the Bible.

[@paddlefar9175]

Same thing is shown in African Painted/ Wild Dogs. They have a very harmonious social structure, rarely squabble, cooperate well and they put the pups first. They show altruism, empathy and love towards one another, to a very high degree. It’s all Nature and naturally/ genetically directed. No God is needed.

[@IamnotJohnFord]

Female vampire bats share blood with each other and those that share more often receive more donors when food is scarce. They also groom each other and have bonds that can last decades. Many social animals have rudimentary rights and wrongs. They give up some freedoms to take advantage of the group for all kinds of reasons. If it were biblical why would it be very apparent in some animals and not others?

[@rosamorales729]

And there’s chimpanzees who have ripped people’s faces off and killed them. Funny how conveniently forgot to mention that.

[@mirandahotspring4019]

I'm sure there's been at least one missionary who has tried to teach them the word of god.

[@jojobizarrelivingstone594]

​@@mirandahotspring4019yeah im sure hes telling god all about it...cuz that dude is probably dead😂

[@leyrua]

It seems like a lot of Christians conflate atheism with nihilism. But I value life MORE because I understand that this is the only one we get.

[@frompartsunknown687]

They both go to hell, so I guess you can mumble to yourself the irrelevant difference throughout eternity. Let me educate you further: This sliver of time enjoying your temporary free will on earth is not “life,” due to it being brief, erased & forgotten - EXACTLY as if it never happened. We are simply temporarily surviving in our temporary free will. True “life” begins in Heaven where “life” is eternal and “lasting.” It cannot be taken away. My PRICELESS free advice is that your free will is temporary and you should not limit yourself to focusing on this temporary sliver of time on earth, when eternity should overwhelmingly be your focus. Your TEMPORARY free will expires at your last gasp on earth. YOU CAN"T AFFORD TO GET THIS WRONG! 100 trillion yrs from now, you'll still be in hell - never to escape.

[@TheistsTapOut]

​@@frompartsunknown687Where do you get all that info for your fanfic?

[@69eddieD]

@@frompartsunknown687 Derpitudes from the fake "Doctor."

[@holgerlubotzki3469]

Bravely bold Sir NEPPY Rode forth from his basement. He was not afraid to lose, Oh brave Sir NEPPY. He was not at all afraid To be shamed in silly ways. Brave, brave, brave, brave Sir NEPPY. He was not in the least bit scared To be laughed at in public. Or to have his brain flayed out, And his logic broken. To have his fallacies split And his self esteem burned away, And his credibility all hacked and mangled Brave Sir NEPPY. His lies smashed in And his hatred cut out And his logic removed And his banality unplugged And his nonsense raped And his rebuttals burnt off And his penis (Phallusees?) "That's, that's enough music for now lads, there's dirty work afoot." Brave Sir NEPPY ran away. ("No!") Bravely ran away away. ("I didn't!") When logic reared it's ugly head, He bravely turned his tail and fled. ("I never!") Yes, brave Sir NEPPY turned about from the debate he chickened out. ("You're lying!") Swiftly taking to his feet, He beat a very brave retreat. Bravest of the brave, Sir NEPPY!

[@ookekklibarianbornagain6708]

@@69eddieD Neppy's only medical credentials is that of a Chiropractor🤣

[@robertmcadams832]

The moment an adult mentions Adam and Eve, they can no longer be taken seriously.

[@frompartsunknown687]

No, it's more like when you mention a "mud puddle," that you can no longer be taken seriously. Or was it "moon dirt" that produced the human being? LOL

[@holgerlubotzki3469]

Bravely bold Sir NEPPY Rode forth from his basement. He was not afraid to lose, Oh brave Sir NEPPY. He was not at all afraid To be shamed in silly ways. Brave, brave, brave, brave Sir NEPPY. He was not in the least bit scared To be laughed at in public. Or to have his brain flayed out, And his logic broken. To have his fallacies split And his self esteem burned away, And his credibility all hacked and mangled Brave Sir NEPPY. His lies smashed in And his hatred cut out And his logic removed And his banality unplugged And his nonsense raped And his rebuttals burnt off And his penis (Phallusees?) "That's, that's enough music for now lads, there's dirty work afoot." Brave Sir NEPPY ran away. ("No!") Bravely ran away away. ("I didn't!") When logic reared it's ugly head, He bravely turned his tail and fled. ("I never!") Yes, brave Sir NEPPY turned about from the debate he chickened out. ("You're lying!") Swiftly taking to his feet, He beat a very brave retreat. Bravest of the brave, Sir NEPPY!

[@ajclements4627]

@@frompartsunknown687 When one has 60+ alts, and a phony resume, no one takes you seriously.

[@holgerlubotzki3469]

@@KentuckyBrad Because you cannot provide any context for fictional characters, KenFuckyBrad, that's why.

[@ThroneofDavid8]

Are you saying that you don't believe there was ever anyone with the name Adam?

[@nmappraiser9926]

When they bring up the garden of Eden, the most succinct counter is, "Who created the serpent?" God fomented the evil. He created the tree, the fruit, the serpent, the fallible people.

[@leyrua]

Going to borrow this entire post...

[@nsf001-3]

God himself even says he created Evil so there's no other answer they can give unless they just wanna straight up lie about what The Bible says

[@frompartsunknown687]

EVERYTHING came from God either directly or indirectly. God also created your temporary free will that expires at your last gasp on earth. So far, you've totally failed w/ the gift of life given you. Your soul deserves a better effort.

[@ajclements4627]

@@frompartsunknown687 Point to *any* mainstream scientific/medical research that supports the existence of a soul. I’ll wait.

[@georgeandrews1394]

​@@frompartsunknown687 So God _did_ create evil?

[@cnault3244]

If you don't get your morality from the Bible, you won't know that slavery is moral.

[@mina6mina]

You also wouldn't know stoning is moral, or genocide 🙃 And if you don't get your morality from the Quran/Hadith, you won't know child marriage and rape is moral 🙃

[@onerandomguy9227]

This checks out ✅

[@ChewedBubbleGun]

If you don’t read the Bible, you wouldn’t know that it is the moral thing to burn someone to death for wearing clothing made of 2 different fabrics… Wierd that even modern Christians see that as immoral…

[@ginsu85]

When Forrest said "If I'm good I get a cookie and get to live in this theme park, if I'm bad I'll get tortured in hell." My first though was "It's not even about being good or bad, it's about worshiping that god or not." Because according to Christian Doctrine, or what Christians tell me anyways. If you worship God and Pray to Jesus you'll be forgiven of every bad thing you've ever done. So you could be bad your whole life worship god and still get to go to heaven, or you could be good your whole life, do good things help people but not worship god and still be cast into hell. Why would I want to go to heaven if all the bad people who worship? I wouldn't.

[@ginsu85]

@ConontheBinarian It would make a lot more sense why god allows atrocities to happen and let bad people into his perfect place. Lmao

[@frompartsunknown687]

Shallow thinking, for sure. Heaven is nothing like earth. Only dedicated Christians go to heaven - not someone that has a flash of wisdom for a moment.

[@69eddieD]

@@frompartsunknown687We know you're in no danger of having a flash of wisdom!

[@holgerlubotzki3469]

Bravely bold Sir NEPPY Rode forth from his basement. He was not afraid to lose, Oh brave Sir NEPPY. He was not at all afraid To be shamed in silly ways. Brave, brave, brave, brave Sir NEPPY. He was not in the least bit scared To be laughed at in public. Or to have his brain flayed out, And his logic broken. To have his fallacies split And his self esteem burned away, And his credibility all hacked and mangled Brave Sir NEPPY. His lies smashed in And his hatred cut out And his logic removed And his banality unplugged And his nonsense raped And his rebuttals burnt off And his penis (Phallusees?) "That's, that's enough music for now lads, there's dirty work afoot." Brave Sir NEPPY ran away. ("No!") Bravely ran away away. ("I didn't!") When logic reared it's ugly head, He bravely turned his tail and fled. ("I never!") Yes, brave Sir NEPPY turned about from the debate he chickened out. ("You're lying!") Swiftly taking to his feet, He beat a very brave retreat. Bravest of the brave, Sir NEPPY!

[@ginsu85]

@@frompartsunknown687 show me Heaven is real, until then everything you "Say" without providing that evidence means nothing.

[@PatrickWDunne]

Other animals, especially mammals, have what could be seen as morals. Elephants feel sympathy and sadness and mourn their dead. Dolphins have helped humans that were stranded in the ocean. Dogs have helped their human owners in dangerous situations.

[@susanrobertson984]

I have a dog who is a far better judge of character than I am.

[@slaydog5102]

​@@susanrobertson984no it is not, but then again dog lovers see themselves beneath dogs so help yourself.

[@slaydog5102]

​​@@ConontheBinarianbecause dogs are obsessed with food and see your baby as a food competitor which is why they attack babies

[@slaydog5102]

​@@susanrobertson984how? By barking at everything?

[@susanrobertson984]

@@slaydog5102 he is a guardian breed and he is very clear when he thinks someone is sus he will not relax around them.

[@nondescriptcat5620]

"are you in a relationship because you *want* to be or because you *have* to be? also, if you don't *want* to be in this relationship, you will be tortured for all eternity." *F R E E W I L L*

[@DanielChan1]

The actual question is do you want to align yourself with “good” or do you want to align yourself with “evil” Just because you have free will doesn’t mean both options have to be equally attractive, there is clearly a better option.

[@nondescriptcat5620]

@@DanielChan1 your "god" and your whole belief system is unambiguously evil. get the fuck behind me, Satan.

[@PastelOddity]

@@DanielChan1The point still stands that if I want to align with “evil” (which, mind you, can simply be not wanting to be in this relationship and nothing else), but the consequence of aligning with evil is _eternal torture and torment_ from the person I don’t want to be in a relationship with, I still don’t have a choice. The “choice” is “love me or I’ll torture you forever”. That’s not a choice.

[@DanielChan1]

@@PastelOddity people don’t go to hell because they don’t like God. They go to hell because of the evil that they do. Evil is like the “butterfly affect” or “ripple affect” the extent of all of our evil deeds is way bigger than we can imagine. It negatively affects people in so many ways. And because of this, hell is a fair punishment. But we are free to choose life, simply by submitting to the truth. Either you yourself pay for your evil. Or you let God pay for your evil. But somebody must pay.

[@mumuvp]

​@@DanielChan1"people don't go to hell because the don't like God" ​so you are basically saying that you can be an atheist, deny God but as long as you do good, you still get to heaven?

[@jaredrobinson7071]

I do good because I enjoy seeing other people happy, and I don't do evil because I actually physiologically feel it when I see another person in pain. It's called empathy. It's part of a survival tactic that nature and evolution has instilled into people and as we developed intelligence we learned to lean even harder into those aspects and as a result of all of this when we reach out to touch the stars we at least land on the moon.

[@quotedotes]

@@ConontheBinarianrational behavior can lend itself to empathy as well. "I want others to see and feel that I am a person worth caring for, therefore I will display this social behavior also, I will care about others too, and whatever is to the group's benefit, is inherently to my benefit, too."

[@StuffyMc]

​@@ConontheBinarianYour "intellectual empathy" is mimicking genuine empathy. If we had never evolved empathy, this "intellectual empathy" could not exist. Can't make a copy without an original.

[@frompartsunknown687]

No, it's called morality and ALL OF HUMANITY has morality, having been created in the image and likeness of our moral God: “Then G0D said, “Let us (Trinity: Father, Word, Holy Spirit) make mankind in our image, in our likeness…” - Genesis 1:26

[@nsf001-3]

Not a good argument, because psychopaths feel good hurting people. What really saves people is human tribalism, which would be a net negative except for the part where the goals of most human groups overlap significantly. It's also blind to the concept of virtue signalling. Plenty of people will eg. victim blame homeless people, but then also engage in low-risk and unproductive "help" for the homeless to elevate their social status. Plus humans love to conflate "likeability" with "goodness" (called halo effect, funny enough), and then rampant egoism means tons of terrible people consider themselves good because they are themselves, and then people who are the same as them must also be good, and their "way out" of being actually immoral is by claiming anyone they're persecuting is the bad person so they deserve it and their behavior magically becomes not only not-bad but actually good

[@ACAB.forcutie]

@@frompartsunknown687 quit spamming bro 😒

[@Wes-x9p]

my dogs show morality to each other, just lost one to cancer and the other spends her time looking for the other one. Lays at my feet constantly watching for the other.

[@lightningbug276]

They are better than us!

[@kaiza6467]

If you can’t think of a single reason not to hurt people if the Bible didn’t exist, you are not a moral person. Because that means you’re just following a rule book, you don’t feel anything when hurting others. You have no empathy.

[@DanielChan1]

Then you would have to Prove “empathy” is a good thing. without just saying “be nice” or “care for people” cause those are circular arguments.

[@maru-wi2lu]

@@DanielChan1 why wouldn't empathy be a good thing? Assuring your kind is fed, well and procreation ready is a very sure thing to keep your species alive, or as in, you know how the other people would feel being hurt, so you wouldn't want that person to be hurt also. Seeing someone feeling unwell makes you feel unwell, so the best way to feel well would be if everyone around you is also well. If your tribe/social circle/whatever is in good conditions to reproduce and be alive, empathy then is good for continuation of your species.

[@Harbinger_Raven]

@@DanielChan1 empathy leads to helping others, that leads to getting more help, that means you are more likely to survive, which means you are more likely to reproduce, and so on. empathy makes sense evolutionarily.

[@DanielChan1]

@@Harbinger_Raven so empathy is only good for evolution and has nothing to do with morality? Therefore the lack of empathy doesn’t make you immoral

[@Aryan-qv5qk]

@@DanielChan1well it makes others happy which makes me happy, that’s all I really need

[@ACAB.forcutie]

Anyone who uses the bible as their moral compass is morally bankrupt 🤷‍♀️

[@crystalgiddens7276]

evil exists in this world.

[@joshsheridan9511]

@@crystalgiddens7276 and?

[@ACAB.forcutie]

@@crystalgiddens7276 yeah I know christians exist 😂

[@crystalgiddens7276]

@@ACAB.forcutie good

[@ACAB.forcutie]

@@crystalgiddens7276 wow, you're glad that evil exists 🤣🤷‍♀️

[@atheistarchitect8256]

It's almost like Morality predates all religions

[@MrWackydoodles]

Hosts: perfectly communicate that you logically can have a world where humans pick good and still have freewill and gets the caller to agree with all the premises. Caller: No, that's not really freewill such a prime example of cognitive dissonance lol

[@TaeyxBlack]

i like the way jmike put it. i’ve often put the same argument slightly differently: premise 1: god has free will premise 2: god does not or cannot sin premise 3: god is capable of love premise 4: god can create whatever logically possible creatures he wants conclusion: it is possible for a being to be capable of love, not commit sin, have free will, and god could have created us like that.

[@wizardsuth]

@@TaeyxBlack If God's objective is to have as many people as possible love him and stay with him in Heaven for eternity, why not just create things that way? Why bother having a world in which everyone experiences at least some suffering and many are destined to suffer in Hell forever? It sounds awfully sadistic to me.

[@TaeyxBlack]

@@wizardsuth the normal response you’d get to that kind of question is that god wanted us to love him, and true love has to be freely chosen, not forced. i think it’s a kind of cop out because it implies god’s desire for people’s love justifies any atrocities that happen in earth or hell.

[@antonioscendrategattico2302]

@@TaeyxBlack And it just openly contradicts the argument made previously turning free will into an inconsistent special pleading soup. A being that can only do good has no free will... unless it's God, in which case it can. The equivocation is so blatant.

[@marynallred2881]

Everytime I watch a show with Forrest, he teaches me how to be a better person and is an example of healthy boundaries and I swear it changes me a little bit as a person EVERYTIME. This show has been so healing to me as a queer nonbionary person that grew up Mormon.

[@DefaOmega]

JMike's logical argument is so damn good! Man of man

[@DanielChan1]

If God created a world where nobody happened to sin that would defeat the purpose of free will, because God freely picks which outcome to play in. That’s like saying me running a soccer game “humans vs mermaids (no legs)”. That would not be a accurate test of how good humans are at soccer because they would win. Gods uses free will to find those who seak him. Similarly I use free will to find pro soccer players. It’s not free will if the humans win every time even if they have a “chance” at Losing. Are these truly good soccer players just because they win?

[@DefaOmega]

@@DanielChan1 This is a wild analogy. God made us with tons of limitations and tons of things outside of our ability. If he just hadn't bothered to create evil, we could still have Free Will and live significantly better lives. Hell he should have just created the world without childhood cancer, but apparently we need that because we have Free Will. He chose this world with the full ability to alter it in any way or make anything different. I'm coming around to your sports analogy, because God definitely set this up like a fun game his demented mind wanted to watch...

[@DanielChan1]

@@DefaOmega what you are describing is heaven, a state where we will have free will yet there will be no sin. A perfect place for perfect people. God did not create evil, he created the ability for evil to exist. He did not create robots. Because robots are not capable of love. When God created Adam and Eve they disobeyed God. And were separated from perfection. This is why bad things like cancer exist. Is God unjust for separating himself from a disobedient people? (The absence of his presence is death) But Christ came down and lived in the corrupted world that you live in, and understands what pain is like. If you really hated evil as much as Christ does you would be sinless as he is.

[@animeepstudios9110]

⁠@@DanielChan1The cognitive dissonance is palpable. In one sentence you said that free will + no evil = heaven, and then in the next sentence you argued against those exact two things by saying god didn’t want robots. So, which is it?? Do we just become robots in heaven? I don’t see free will, and that goes against what you claim God wants. This just tells me God is a psychopathic lunatic narcissist who created the vast majority to go to hell, with no recourse because He already knows who will end up in heaven. I await your response.

[@AlyssaGemma]

J Mike and Forrest are my favourite pairing to listen to. They can cover such a wide diversity of topics between the two of them, and their personalities compliment each other so well ☺️

[@richardb7495]

Levi has OBVIOUSLY never read the Bible with any degree of thoroughness (or at all) when he says morality comes from this book

[@nsf001-3]

The only people who've actually read The Bible are Atheists and Fundamentalists

[@frompartsunknown687]

No morality comes from our moral God when he created humanity in his moral image & likeness: “Then G0D said, “Let us (Trinity: Father, Word, Holy Spirit) make mankind in our image, in our likeness…” - Genesis 1:26

[@69eddieD]

@@frompartsunknown687 Your fake god is an asshole, just like you.

[@ACAB.forcutie]

Or honesty

[@ACAB.forcutie]

@@frompartsunknown687 woah, we got a slaving, assaulting, baby killing, pdf file over here! 😱

[@stevenpike7857]

This argument has been debunked and explained so many times, it's exhausting.

[@frompartsunknown687]

Sorry pal, but atheism has ZERO ANSWERS. And the ones it gives have all been proven to be IMPOSSIBLE. You have a lot to learn.

[@ajclements4627]

@@frompartsunknown687 “You have a lot to learn” Ok, so remind everyone again how “volcanoes prove hell exists”. 😂

[@georgeandrews1394]

​​@@frompartsunknown687 ...You know 'prove' doesn't mean 'I decided it was wrong because I need my religious text to be right', eh?

[@lilmsgs]

Levi, you know humans are mammals, right?

[@joeanthony7759]

Nary a difference

[@ericashmead4049]

@@ConontheBinarian Holy cow, I see what you did there

[@nsf001-3]

Levi, you know Levis are genes right?

[@frompartsunknown687]

No. Secularists have classified humans as mammals, but humans ALONE are created in the image & likeness of God: “Then G0D said, “Let us (Trinity: Father, Word, Holy Spirit) make mankind in our image, in our likeness…” - Genesis 1:26

[@lilmsgs]

@@frompartsunknown687 "Secularists have classified humans as mammals"? You mean people who understand the evidence that demonstrates that people are mammal? Like, all the characteristics that mammals have, humans also have. How do explain that?

[@SleepyMatt-zzz]

The idea that morality doesn't matter if we are animals is an acknowledgement that humans ought treat each other as poorly as we treat animals, which is an exceptionally alarming thing to think about... I really don't understand how people can misunderstand the concept of "survival of the fittest". Honestly baffles the mind.

[@ScootsLounge]

One of my favorite examples of animal empathy/morality is this one experiment that made Rats choose whether or not to save another rat in distress or go for a treat. Most of the time, the rat went for the distressing rat and then the treat, even sharing the treat with the distressed rat. And that rate became even higher when a rat who was previously distressed was made to choose. It's really cute tbh.

[@adriannabcustomfurniture]

I really enjoyed this conversation. I liked how respectful the caller was and how it wasn't really an argument, but more a conversation. Thanks guys!

[@SaintD382]

When I renounced Christianity, I plunged into a moral void, because the thing I had been basing my morality on (Christianity) had been revealed to be a lie. For a period of time I became what I would call a "bad person", but then I gradually began to piece together a new morality based on a non-religious version of karma (what you do comes back to you), positive thinking, and various non-theistic spiritual concepts that felt beneficial. I reverted back to being a decent person because that was my identity. I had tried being a bad person and it wasn't for me. So for me, losing Christianity resulted in a temporary downturn in my morality, but I pulled out of it.

[@glenliesegang233]

"Tried being a bad person..."?

[@jackwhitbread4583]

There was zero need for you to ever be a bad person as an atheist. Never heard of the golden rule? It's something the majority of atheists follow.

[@ddray1992]

​@@glenliesegang233 I'm gonna guess they meant that they tried acting particularly selfishly.

[@helixsol7171]

​@@glenliesegang233 They're referring to the part where they temporarily became someone they'd consider bad.

[@DariusRoland]

He was SOOO close, but couldn't jump that last hurdle into rationality.

[@shanehunt3019]

Jumped onto the 400m hurdle and did a whole pommel horse routine, then jumped off back onto irrationality and expected applause.

[@chameleonx9253]

Anyone who assumes moral behavior is only found in humans doesn't know enough about other animals.

[@MrStringybark]

"Some studies, for instance, have found that animals are sometimes willing to help others when there is no direct gain involved for them, or even a direct loss."

[@Musicswagg86]

This! This was one good conversation! Hope to see more like it.🙌🏾🙏🏾👍🏾

[@jeanettecook1088]

It isn't a belief that we are animals, it's what the evidence says we are. It's a conclusion based on facts. Animals have the rudiments of morality in that many recognize and act on the good of the others in order to preserve themselves (killer whales, lions, donkeys, etc. come to mind)... our life is entirely biochemical... but we are also moral beings because we evolved in a social climate. We also have a history of three plus million years wherein we developed social order and our morality. It is totally natural... no gods need apply. The world is far more wonderful than the fables of religion would have the naive believe. 🎉

[@fustino5]

It's just a point of view that we are animals :> Evolution as well. All the fossils are in the present. Where is this past you guys always cheer on about? And by the way. A person *gets* emotions because the larger part of him is in non-physical. Otherwise there would be no emotion. It's not an evolutionary processes. In fact processies are also a point of view. All we ever have is conciousness and it's qualities. We as such had no beginning. It's all true because it's all points of view, for infinity. So our souls are not inclined to boredom. If you need proof. Think with properties and qualities. We exist therefore we always will. We can concieve and peer to things like axioms or for example infinity it's self, because it's all part of the structure of existence. Otherwise we would not have the ability to have even a faint idea of these kinds of things. So we are made in the image of the Creator of All Things. That is what we do. Create. We are never alone. And about the world - it's a test of energies like dark and light (which can't be separated). It's not a test of humans nor individuals. Go ahead and share this with the crew of TAE because they should be up to date. Some things are very old news, honestly. Kind Regards, George

[@jayrose8638]

@@fustino5has failed to provide any convincing reason to believe in the existence of any god or gods. Claims dismissed

[@fustino5]

@@jayrose8638 no, it's us see.. We are already doing it. On the other side we are a family and there is a set number of souls. We don't have minds there. We "know" and experience all. And have many other things to do. We are The Collective

[@jeanettecook1088]

@ConontheBinarian Yes, there's a spread of capabilities among species, dependent on their various needs to survive and adapt to different environs. Every human alive today has had successful ancestors, that is, they all survived to reproductive age. War has shaped our history too... we are indeed the most bellicose species alive. Our successful ancestors developed virtuosity and curiosity about everything... we are widely distributed on the planet. In fact, I knew a biologist in college who thought we couldn't be made extinct because of that distribution, and our extreme year-round fecundity when of reproductive age. Everything in our being is the result of adaptation, and a trait only has to be developed once in order to be transmitted to future generations.

[@jeanettecook1088]

@fustino5 You're operating under a false idea. Emotions are a feature of brain activity. The mind is what the brain does. 🧠 See a wonderful book based on the latest research ... The Illusion of God's Presence, by Dr John C Wathey. His chapter on Dualism (belief in a soul) is alone worth the cost of a used copy! If only our ancestors had known what we know today, they wouldn't have gotten away with writing so many silly things (but useful ones to them) in religious literature.... there is so much scholarship on this subject now, that my library shelves are groaning. Ref. Who Wrote the Bible? by Richard S Friedman Forged, by Bart Ehrman The God Delusion, by Richard Dawkins How We Live How We Die .... both by Sherwin Nuland Did Moses Exist? by Acharya S. Jesus the Magician, by Morton Smith God, The Most Unpleasant Character in All Fiction, by Dan Barker Jesus: Mything in Action, by David Fitzgerald (three volumes)

[@happyninja42]

I love how often the proper response to these callers is "Because that's not what we believe, that's what YOU think we believe, and have been taught that we believe, by your fellow religious chucklefucks, who are actively against our outlook on life"

[@nsf001-3]

Which is fine except they also have a tendency to expect all the Theist callers (or at least Christian callers) to have the same beliefs or interpretation of The Bible

[@frompartsunknown687]

What does it matter when you're lost anyway? There's not 50 shades of "lost." You're lost, full stop. Christians ALONE are on the correct path.

[@happyninja42]

@@frompartsunknown687 *pats your head* suuure you are chucklefuck. 🤣🤣 keep telling yourself that YOUR invisible sky daddy is the real one, while ignoring all the others out there as just plain silly.

[@happyninja42]

@@nsf001-3 no, they really don't. in fact they bring that point up all the time. it's why they will regularly ASK the caller "what do you believe, and why". that is directly because they all believe such different nonsense, but all claim to be christian, assuming it's all the same. when the reality is there is a HUGE amount of deviation in their religion alone. it's why the hosts ask them to clarify the definitions they use for various words, because it can mean different things from caller to caller.

[@eleanorgeorge7069]

@@happyninja42 "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling" - Phil 2:12 Note: Why? Because you could get it wrong. "My people perish for lack of knowledge" - Hosea 4:6. God is easily proved. NOTHING of this world can be explained by anything of nature (e.g. nothing, star dust, moist rocks, mud puddles, hot rocks, moon dirt, warm ponds, gravity, oceans, primordial soup). LIFE, INTELLIGENCE, LOVE, CONSCIOUSNESS & MORALITY can only be produced by OUR LIVING, INTELLIGENT, LOVING, CONSCIOUS & MORAL GOD who ALONE has the MEANS to give us these attributes. There is no other possible option. EVERYTHING in this world is DYING/DECAYING in disorder toward it's heat death end and a DYING WORLD requires a NON-DYING CAUSE. FINITE NATURE (time/space/matter/energy) had a beginning; thus, a beginner. Thus, that beginner is required to be an uncaused, beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless and enormously powerful being. The wise call him "OUR INFINITE/ETERNAL/SUPERNATURAL GOD." Atheism = rebellious delusion and a desperation to cling to the IMPOSSIBLE. Try to learn.

[@ENDtheFED-it4bo]

If the wages of sin is death then why do animals die? Follow up question: Then why did God punish everything (and everyone) and not just Adam and Eve?

[@frompartsunknown687]

"Death" is not a bug being crushed. "Death" means being separated from God: "Jesus answered and said, "I am the way, the truth & the life. No man comes to the father except by me." - John 14:6

[@georgeandrews1394]

​@@frompartsunknown687 So why did God say 'you will die' and not 'you will have to go away from me forever'? And if it's a transcription problem, I'm pretty sure whoever wrote that story down understood that someone can leave forever and also not be dead immediately upon leaving.

[@frompartsunknown687]

@@georgeandrews1394 God said "you shall surely die." And they did and we have. God cursed this fleshly body we live in. But our soul & spirit don't die. We either go to heaven or hell after this sliver of time we're on earth. But after the sin of Adam & Eve, God killed so that the animal blood atoned for their sin. You missed that part. But it was animal blood until the blood of Jesus.

[@georgeandrews1394]

​@@frompartsunknown687 You didn't answer my question.

[@eleanorgeorge7069]

@@georgeandrews1394 Because God finished creation before he started it. He knew the future. Jesus would provide a choice for redemption.

[@lilmsgs]

Excellent summary of moral outlook, Forrest.

[@Mochi-cs9ru]

I’m glad JMike uses SA instead of the actual word I appreciate that

[@hamlet9984]

I’m impressed with the logic! Forest and JMike are amazing communicators, always love seeing these two

[@DanielChan1]

If God created a world where nobody happened to sin that would defeat the purpose of free will, because God freely picks which outcome to play in. That’s like saying me running a soccer game “humans vs mermaids (no legs)”. That would not be a accurate test of how good humans are at soccer because they would win. Gods uses free will to find those who seak him. Similarly I use free will to find pro soccer players. It’s not free will if the humans win every time even if they have a “chance” at Losing. Are these pro soccer players just because they win. In a “freewill environment”

[@anthonythompson1680]

Levi knows the hosts are correct. Levi is actually convinced by JMike and Forest's arguments, he's fighting tooth and nail to maintain his position. At that point he's being dishonest with himself.

[@tokeivo]

I think that's pretty fair. I mean, I have a hard time when presented with facts that contradicts my somewhat strongly held convictions - I usually leave the conversation angry, sleep on it, and then come back to talk when I've had time to slowly adjust to the thought. (And I mean "angry" as in the feeling of anger, not necessarily shouting and slamming doors, but a naturally occurring "you've offended me" response feeling.) I don't think it would be fair to expect someone to change their whole perception on life, while on the phone with two people they don't know, during a live call-in show. I mean, he called in to challenge his own views, right? That's pretty good. And for a long while he accepted their responses, even if just to learn something about atheists. (And then, he naturally got defensive when he felt challenged - again, not the best response, but quite natural and understandable.)

[@anthonythompson1680]

@@tokeivo I agree with you, that’s a fair summary.

[@brooksfaucette296]

While thats definitely possible i rlly dont think we should say that about theists when we all know how annoying it is to be told "you really do believe in god in your heart, but you're mad at him/want to sin/want to be cool" it just kinda pushes people away

[@paulsilsby5355]

Thanks Forrest... Its so refreshing to know that you think just like me

[@eleanorgeorge7069]

Don't be silly. Forrest has ZERO ANSWERS. The asinine, lost & clueless cult of atheism is INFAMOUS the world over for having ZERO ANSWERS and yet it's lost & clueless NO ANSWER followers cling desperately to that garbage.

[@armysapper12b]

This is crazy, about 5 minutes ago I just had a comment on a KZbin video rebutting my philosophy that matches your points exactly. It was along the same premise of the caller’s question. I think you two nailed what most of us think about this authoritarian approach to morality.

[@paulolosi1452]

Wow mike, that was brilliant I never thought of it that way!😳👏. This was an awesome call, and as always, Forrest you’re freakin amazing as heck! I wish I can think on the spot when pressure like this.

[@jimscanoe]

JMike and Forrest that was such an excellent response to Levi, the Christian, who starts off believing as a Christian that he's morally superior to non-Christians and ends the conversation pretending (it might have just been a last ditch survival strategy) that he doesn't understand JMike's and Forrest's argument preferring rather to stick with his initial preconceived irrational ideas rather than honestly engaging in what JMike and Forrest spent considerable time and thought expressing.

[@frompartsunknown687]

Christians, as well as the lost, all have morality, having been created in the image & likeness of our moral God. HOWEVER, it's Christians that understand to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh. The lost walk entirely in the flesh. Sinners don't mind sin, but Christians run away from sin.

[@TheTruthKiwi]

@@frompartsunknown687 Oh well, call me lost then because if a baby is trapped in a burning house I'm going to physically try and rescue it and not rely on some woo woo spirits nonsense. It must be good living outside of reality in some airy fairy wonderland where you think you have all the answers. I'll take rationality, reason, reality and responsibility any day over that crap though thanks. Also, "sin" is a term that was made up to blackmail the gullible into believing through fear and delusion. 😊

[@wyldink1]

@@frompartsunknown687 False. Try to learn, Liar Powers.

[@Julian0101]

@@frompartsunknown687 The fact that we all, as well as troll apologists, understand endorsiong slavery is immoral, shows we couldnt have been created by the christian god. Congratulations once again neppy, for debunking your own magical fairy.

[@docmartin9489]

JMike and Forrest are the best duo. Love these guys!

[@stacie1595]

It always shocks me just how poorly people understand the phrase "survival of the fittest." Ask them to define "fit" and if they come back with "the best, strongest, fastest" they are wrong! Its about fitting into an environment like a puzzle piece. They will fall on their face in discussions every time untill they get it in their head.

[@jimgillert20]

Darwin's first edition uses "the most adaptable." It was changed due to popular opinion.

[@frompartsunknown687]

It always shocks me when people say LIFE, INTELLIGENCE, LOVE, CONSCIOUSNESS, MORALITY, time/space/matter/energy all at the same time, the human being, 9 million species of animals, plants, DNA, 100 trillion stars, planets, moons and ALL the co-existent DESIGNED bodily systems (circulatory, respiratory, reproductive, pulmonic, digestive, skeletal, muscular, nervous, body (skin), etc., etc.) intertwined in co-dependent order in the human body and THAT SAME DESIGN seen in MILLIONS of other animals ALL CAME FROM godless causes (e.g. nothing, star dust, moist rocks, mud puddles, hot rocks, moon dirt, warm ponds, gravity, oceans, primordial soup, multiverse, big bang, abiogenesis, mistakes (mutations) gaining in complexity/new information, star formation, evolution).

[@nsf001-3]

It's because that's the usage of "fit" in American English. Even with the British English usage it's still a bad definition. "Survival of the fittest" should be more like "Propagation of whatever doesn't significantly impair reproduction"

[@timothy8428]

Fit means hot, innit?

[@holgerlubotzki3469]

Bravely bold Sir NEPPY Rode forth from his basement. He was not afraid to lose, Oh brave Sir NEPPY. He was not at all afraid To be shamed in silly ways. Brave, brave, brave, brave Sir NEPPY. He was not in the least bit scared To be laughed at in public. Or to have his brain flayed out, And his logic broken. To have his fallacies split And his self esteem burned away, And his credibility all hacked and mangled Brave Sir NEPPY. His lies smashed in And his hatred cut out And his logic removed And his banality unplugged And his nonsense raped And his rebuttals burnt off And his penis (Phallusees?) "That's, that's enough music for now lads, there's dirty work afoot." Brave Sir NEPPY ran away. ("No!") Bravely ran away away. ("I didn't!") When logic reared it's ugly head, He bravely turned his tail and fled. ("I never!") Yes, brave Sir NEPPY turned about from the debate he chickened out. ("You're lying!") Swiftly taking to his feet, He beat a very brave retreat. Bravest of the brave, Sir NEPPY!

[@sparki9085]

25:30 "Adam and eve were told not to eat from the tree that will give them the knowledge to know if something is wrong, therefore they knew it was wrong" great self debunk

[@erinelizabethmsw5137]

Thank you Jeeesus, a caller who answers the guys’ questions!

[@jimgillert20]

Four thousand years of theology and the best we have is Paul saying just don't question it (paraphrase). Romans 9 20 21.

[@graladue]

If our understanding of good and evil comes from the bible, why was there morality before the bible and in places that had not heard of the bible?

[@nsf001-3]

No. This is the thing: To a Christian, God _is_ morality. And to them morality isn't an observation of actions and consequences, morality is literally just God. This is the disconnect I see all the time and most Atheists seem to miss. If someone is defining morality as "whatever God said", there's no logical way out because their conclusion is their argument

[@graladue]

@@nsf001-3 I think you missed my point. The *caller* said that morality was defined *by the bible* only. This simply misses the reality that moral behavior long predates the pages of the Bible. The caller might have been thinking something else, but what he said was that.

[@Hola-ro6yv]

@@graladueChristians who have adopted the doctrine of Sola Scriptura believe morality is from the Bible. Christians who don’t hold to that doctrine do not believe morality is from the Bible.

[@Hola-ro6yv]

@@nsf001-3are you anarchist?

[@kaiza6467]

Yeah it’s weird how I grew up in a small isolated village deep in the Japanese countryside where there were no Christians and no Bibles, yet I’ve never killed anyone. Almost as if the Bible isn’t the sole source of morality in the universe. 😂

[@johnthomas2106]

I fear being eaten by the 3 bears from goldilocks more than fairy tale punishment. Heck. Bears even exist outside of the fairy tale

[@graememonie468]

Forrest you are brilliant 👍

[@alzaresh]

God creates world. God creates man. God creates evil tree. God: "Don't touch this tree I made unnecessarily."

[@nsf001-3]

Can they ever do anything but beg the question? It's especially aggravating with the morality debate. They always say something like "How could you have morality without God?" with their conclusion already baked in that "You can't have morality without God". What's sad is, I think most people _really_ don't realize they're doing that. Most people seem to have really bad thinking patterns. I wish there were more focus on critical thinking and logic in school, _especially_ at earlier ages

[@frompartsunknown687]

Because you can't have morality without God. Sorry pal, but a mud puddle can't/didn't give you morality or anything else. You have a lot to learn.

[@davidszeremi1786]

And nobody asking what is God's morality, is there any moral God?

[@wabbajack2]

​@@frompartsunknown687lol literally begging the question

[@cnault3244]

The ones that really annoy me are the ones that claim morality comes from god and that it is objective morality.

[@stephenolan5539]

​@@frompartsunknown687 But that does not mean that there is a God. Needing something does not mean that we have it.

[@smochygrice465]

Good Fri-yay morning everyone 😊 ❤❤❤ And congrats again AXP on 399k Subs. Peace Love Empathy From Australia 🇦🇺👍🤠

[@nealjroberts4050]

Still Thursday here but happy evening to you!

[@t800fantasm2]

@@nealjroberts4050 Thursday here too....

[@nsf001-3]

25:33 It was told to them that it was wrong, but the tree was of "the knowledge of good and evil", so even if they had been _told_ it was wrong, by definition they had no conception of morality. It would be like telling a blind person "don't eat red food" or something. The sick part is that they don't realize what's going on until _after_ they've done the thing they're not supposed to do. Why would people who don't understand good or bad _not_ "disobey" God when they don't even know what disobediance is or why it could effect them negatively?

[@LordPhoenix140]

JMike's example of grape immediately disproves the "free will" rebuttal.

[@TheSkyGuy77]

Theists don't like being reminded that humans are also animals because they use the word "animal" to refer to people in the ""outgroup"" that they don't consider to be "real" people.

[@chancematters]

“You’re comparing a Chevy to an orange” zoinks, that’s good

[@nsf001-3]

My favorite I've heard is "comparing apples to pineapples"

[@jonclark8252]

The deity of the Christians slaughtered untold numbers of fetuses via Noah's Flood, destroyed Job's family for no other reason than to win a bet, and impregnated Mary without consent. You Christians can HAVE your "morality".

[@eleanorgeorge7069]

The angel asked Mary her permission to be the mother of Jesus and she said "yes." That's just one of your lies.

[@t800fantasm2]

@@eleanorgeorge7069 "The angel asked Mary her permission to be the mother of Jesus and she said "yes." So are you saying if That if you ask a very young naïve girl to impregnate here and she says yes, then it's alright? "While unproven, some apocryphal accounts state that at the time of her betrothal to Joseph, Mary was 12-14 years old. " "How old was Mary when she was with Jesus? Historians place Mary's age in the range of 12 to 14 years old when Jesus was born. Mary was an adolescent, which in our culture today seems shockingly young to be a mother' " How Old Was Mary When She Had Jesus? Crosswalk - Bible Study: Dec 8, 2022 - Historians agree that Mary was most likely between 12 and 14 years old when Jesus was born. " Bear in mind those ages are when Jesus was BORN, she would have been 9 months younger at conception...

[@TheistsTapOut]

​@@t800fantasm2It's so ridiculous that NEPy is pretending that Mary was asked to consent. She was basically told what was going to happen. Mary had no choice in the matter.

[@t800fantasm2]

@@TheistsTapOut Yeah, it's essentially rape considering no matter how you look at it, even if at best it's an "authority figure" taking advantage on a prepubescent uneducated girl... And so much for her "free will"....

[@zkapsh]

It annoys me a little when people act like animals don't have some level of basic morality they act like animals are basic ai that operate on an super basic algorithm.

[@pezfam]

The caller said, in response to the notion that god could have made a universe where all people chose to do good (paraphrasing): “If there are limited options, then it isn’t free will.” But he believes we have free will NOW, and we certainly do have limits to our options. I cannot sprout wings and fly to work. I cannot run 50 miles per hour, despite my best efforts. Therefore, limitations to your options do not result in a loss of his definition of free will.

[@connorgrynol9021]

That was a perfectly logically consistent syllogism. The caller simply cannot argue against it. The only thing he could do is go back to the drawing board.

[@CronoXpono]

When Levi wouldn't simply address JMike's brilliant X therefore Y explanation of free will and good, I checked out. What an insincere POS. Dude got led by the nose to an understanding and right away, his logic centric fight or flight mode engaged. Dude didn't and doesn't remotely want a truthful conversation. He wants to stick to his guns no matter what.

[@wabbajack2]

Welcome to apologists, where the logic is faulty and the points don't matter.

[@CronoXpono]

@@wabbajack2 Not even that points are wrong, THEY DONT MATTER. There’s a particularly scary and infuriating thing to simply giving in to “meh” when actually forming a thought. You’re right, it literally doesn’t matter.

[@wizardsuth]

I think he called to criticize atheists and got upset because they pointed out that his own beliefs are inconsistent. He has to resolve the cognitive dissonance somehow, and he's too emotionally attached to his religious beliefs to want to give them up, so he tries to reject what he knows to be a sound argument. Notice how he tries to deflect to the Isiah verse instead of addressing the crux of the matter.

[@Blops2diamondz]

"Free will isn't limited options" says the Theist that believes if we don't believe we will suffer forever.... Sure cause that's a choice...

[@budd2nd]

👍 As usual a brilliant response to this stupid question, by JMike and Forrest.

[@EmiSuess]

"Forrest and I could write a book on this" I WISH YOU WOULD I WOULD BUY TEN COPIES

[@MartijnHover]

Read the book "Good Natured" by Frans de Waal, about the evolutionary origins of "morality".

[@Leszek.Rzepecki]

As soon as someone says "god created the universe in six literal days" you can automatically dismiss anything else they have to say as complete twaddle. They're just ignorant and not worth listening to.

[@smochygrice465]

​@@jaflenbond7854hahaha Looks like no sales where made mate. Better luck next time. Peace Love Empathy Always Brother 🤘

[@holgerlubotzki3469]

@@jaflenbond7854 Mundrabilla

[@holgerlubotzki3469]

@@jaflenbond7854 Calingiri

[@nealjroberts4050]

You can't be an honest literalist and read the Bible

[@flowingafterglow629]

Yeah, I thought it was odd how he stated that all. He starts with God having created the world in 6 days and the bible is God's word. There is the whole question of how you get there in the first place.

[@johnmcstabby2699]

i always feel like it'd be funny to ask these kinds of people if they think people living 2,000+ years ago just had no morals

[@ericwilliams1659]

What about all the people that died before they could let Jesus into their hearts?

[@ericwilliams1659]

@@ConontheBinarian even young earth creationists believe in 4000 years of live before jesus.

[@fartface192]

​@@ConontheBinarianhave you heard of the Old Testament at least?

[@joeanthony7759]

You're serious?@@ConontheBinarian

[@ericwilliams1659]

@@ConontheBinarian Don't call me Shirley. (Great movie reference btw)

[@brianmi40]

Problem is, Yahwe doesn't hand out cookies for "good", but rather worship and professing him god. Makes the OTHER GODS who DO claim to send people to HEAVEN based SOLELY ON DEEDS make a lot more sense comparatively...

[@paddlefar9175]

Yes, this Yahweh character is a real nasty, egocentric, narcissist. Why can’t old ancient men just come up with a more sensible rendition of the Creator myth. Scientologist and Mormons got even stupider with their gods. It’s a good thing that the past grifters, using a God lie, aren’t smarter liars. That would make it tougher for us to debunk, although there is always going to be some form of abusive control involved, in the Big Lie, that will show through.

[@victoriafuller4148]

Thank you for such clear and respectful conversations. I have learned so much. I love to hear the discussions about biology, and wish I were young enough to go back to school to learn more.

[@Lord.1337-7]

Most major universities have free biology lessons you can take. NASA has a whole biology primer on their website that is awesome (if a tad outdated).

[@joshsheridan9511]

There is no if, we are animals, and like all social animals our morals have evolved with our need to cooperate

[@t800fantasm2]

"morals have evolved with our need to cooperate" And survival... Someone does something that pisses off another person can lead to death... or damage... so people learn morals to stay intact... No god required...

[@frompartsunknown687]

No, not at all. Sorry pal, but a mud puddle didn't come from nothing and produce the human being and also produce "morality" within all humans. We all have morality having been created in the image of our moral God: “Then God said, “Let us (Trinity: Father, Word, Holy Spirit) make mankind in our image, in our likeness…” - Genesis 1:26

[@jayrose8638]

@@frompartsunknown687 has failed to provide any convincing reason to believe in the existence of any god or gods.

[@t800fantasm2]

@@frompartsunknown687 "Sorry pal, but a mud puddle didn't come from nothing" And no one said anything to do with that... Why are you lying? Or is it just your delusions talking... " the image of our moral God:" Does God have a penis and testicles? If so why? Does God have a vagina, breasts and ovaries and blonde or red hair? "make mankind in our image, in our likeness…" What colour is God's skin?

[@eleanorgeorge7069]

@@jayrose8638 No reasons to believe in reality? We can take care of that right here right now, as I prove God in one of many ways to do it: God is easily proved. NOTHING of this world can be explained by anything of nature (e.g. nothing, star dust, moist rocks, mud puddles, hot rocks, moon dirt, warm ponds, gravity, oceans, primordial soup). LIFE, INTELLIGENCE, LOVE, CONSCIOUSNESS & MORALITY can only be produced by OUR LIVING, INTELLIGENT, LOVING, CONSCIOUS & MORAL GOD who ALONE has the MEANS to give us these attributes. There is no other possible option. EVERYTHING in this world is DYING/DECAYING in disorder toward it's heat death end and a DYING WORLD requires a NON-DYING CAUSE. FINITE NATURE (time/space/matter/energy) had a beginning; thus, a beginner. Thus, that beginner is required to be an uncaused, beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless and enormously powerful being. The wise call him "OUR INFINITE/ETERNAL/SUPERNATURAL GOD." Atheism = rebellious delusion and a desperation to cling to the IMPOSSIBLE. Try to learn. Now you see why I totally dominate this channel and every atheist that comes to these threads. That will continue for yrs to come.

[@zachrichardson5581]

I don't understand the theistic obsession with total free will. A hypothetical world were people don't have the ability to choose to do shitty things but do have the ability to choose to do other stuff (morally "good and/or amoral) sounds appealing to me. I don't care about not having the free will to do" bad" if everything and everyone is "good". Jmike's point is perfect. If God is all powerful/knowledgeable then God could have choosing the implementation of earth and humanity that involved everyone making good choices.

[@holgerlubotzki3469]

The bible babbler obsession with absolute free will is nothing more than the premise for their lame excuse for their make believe g0d not using his supposed omnipotence to prove he exists to mankind.

[@TheistsTapOut]

​@@holgerlubotzki3469Without free will, they can't hand wave away ALL the issues with their God. Why does God allow for bad things? Free will. Why is there evil? Free will? Why couldn't God do anything about Eve getting tempted? Free will? Why can't God demonstrate his existence? Free will This goes on and on. 😅

[@holgerlubotzki3469]

@@TheistsTapOut Why is g0d such an A hole? Free Will!

[@mugsofmirth8101]

Although it makes little sense, I understand the atheistic obsession with determinism, despite the fact that secularists constantly contradict themselves, like Forrest does at 9:01 when he admits that all his behavior is based on choices he freely makes on a daily basis, thereby implicitly conceding he in fact does have free will.

[@TheistsTapOut]

@@mugsofmirth8101 I know that this idea might be a bit too sophisticated for you, but the capability to make choices is not the same as free will. If we develop a piece of software that will "choose" between multiple options, did that software have "free will"? This is NOT that sophisticated in philosophy. And you don't have to be that educated to understand this nuance. 🤦‍♂️

[@panickedshears]

I was someone who was raised Christian, but I drifted away from Christianity at the age of 11-12. I just didn’t believe it anymore, it felt too fantastical and far fetched. Almost like Santa or the Easter bunny. I’m gonna be completely, brutally honest: I did not know that morality and being a good person was something that Christian’s thought inherently came from the bible. I did not know that there are some people who believe that you’ve got to have the bible in your life to be a good person UNTIL I saw a genetically modified skeptic video where he responded to a Christian who said something like that. I was so confused because I’ve always thought that being a decent human being was just something that was just inherently human. Something that you should do, regardless of religion, because hurting people is wrong. I hate seeing people hurt. That’s not a religious thing. I just don’t like making people feel bad, I don’t like messing with people’s lives in a negative way.

[@junodonatus4906]

Morality, or right and wrong behavior, is a survival adaptation for animals that live in social groups. When the survival of one member of society depends upon another then a sense of reciprocity, or right and wrong, develops.

[@Robot_Overlord]

That was a good call. Bravo to both sides

[@sidecarmisanthrope5927]

One must do some gold medal mental gymnastics to convince themselves that slavery in the buybull is moral and just and not the same as slavery today.

[@Fufiloofa]

Well original sin is a really messed up concept and that's the foundation of their beliefs, can only go downhill from there

[@mugsofmirth8101]

Slavery in the form of forced labor camps is commonplace in atheist societies such as North Korea.

[@nealjroberts4050]

Well they assume (without evidence) that immorality is implicit in life and that a god is needed to reverse that. It's one of the reasons they accuse you atheists and atheism of all sorts of heinous things.

[@eleanorgeorge7069]

Slavery? There was no slavery, unless you're talking about the Hebrews under Pharaoh. But God delivered them via Moses. The rest that's been erroneously insinuated as "slavery" wasn't. They were "SERVANTS" that agreed to be "SERVANTS" and to prove it - THERE WERE RULES. QUITE different than the true "slavery" under pharaoh WITH NO RULES. Learn the difference.

[@GaryRine]

@@mugsofmirth8101 more bullsh*t from a religitard troll eh?? the force labor camps come from the authoritarian dictatorship and have nothing to do with atheism.... are you asserting that there are no forced labor camps in theocracies???

[@gerrye114]

What would have happened is Adam and Eve hadn't eaten from the tree? They didn't have an understanding of why it was "wrong," and they were required to blindly obey. Sounds like the god Yahweh WANTED to have unthinking robots

[@fartface192]

Not to mention the serpent was right; they didn't die when they ate the fruit. God is the first liar.

[@frompartsunknown687]

Wrong. Adam & Eve already had knowledge of right and wrong - else they wouldn't of been punished for their deed by our perfect & just God. That said, the tree was "The knowledge of good and evil" for which they didn't know. They had no conscience. For instance, they didn't know to be ashamed of their nakedness UNTIL AFTER they ate of the tree. They had never did nothing wrong; thus, they were completely oblivious as to the consequences of not only doing wrong, but having a conscious knowledge of morality. Try to learn.

[@frompartsunknown687]

@@fartface192 They did die. He didn't say they would IMMEDIATELY die. You're debunked.

[@georgeandrews1394]

​​​@@frompartsunknown687 "They did die. He didn't say they would immediately die. You're debunked." Hey, on another comment, you said the 'death' mentioned there was actually separation from God and not literal death. You're not being very consistent with your theology. EDIT: Found that comment again: '"Death" is not a bug being crushed. "Death" means being separated from God'

[@gerrye114]

@@frompartsunknown687 starting from the assumption that the genocidal slaver god Yahweh is perfect and just requires you to make up, whole cloth, a terrible excuse for what is a very obvious reading.

[@uncleanunicorn4571]

An all powerful god could simply design a world such that things which are evil are Physically impossible. For instance, I can't reach out with my mind and control other people's thoughts Through psychic power. this Ability doesn't exist for me. Does that mean I have no free will?

[@i.d3fus3r.i6]

True. Ask them if people in wheelchairs have less free will than the rest of us, since they can't do all the evil that the rest of us can. Good luck using logic to fight brainwashing though.

[@nsf001-3]

_"I can't reach out with my mind and control other people's thoughts Through psychic power"_ That's the whole point of speech and text though

[@uncleanunicorn4571]

@@nsf001-3 No words, Just thinking about it. I can't change your mind without speaking and make you give me all your money. In our reality, This ability does not exist. Do I lack free will?

[@NeutralMjolkHotel]

Nice call. Shout out to Levi for being a good caller, though I don’t agree with his stance. Good audio, spoke clearly, polite but respectfully assertive, showed signs of honesty, and even wrapped it up well. I would love to hear this conversation again, digging further into the free will stuff.

[@mattwhite7287]

I like how the caller insinuated that survival of the fittest involves offing species around you for their own benefit. 😂 Buddy, every predator species on the planet actually struggles pretty hard for their meals. Its about equilibrium, not domination. 😂

[@elainejohnson6955]

Is it moral to have 42 children mauled by two bears because they teased someone who was bald?

[@christinanicholson1980]

i seen how horrible this nightmare grows Morality... How can You say Humans have iT But animals dont? Name a species that has committed Worse atrocities

[@LogicalKip]

Comparing species is dishonest because we have much more capacity for atrocities than other animals. That's like saying someone in a coma is more ethical than a murderer because they didn't murder anyone (yet). Well, they can't. So that's not a good test.

[@frompartsunknown687]

Because humans ALONE were created in the image & likeness of our moral God: “Then God said, “Let us (Trinity: Father, Word, Holy Spirit) make mankind in our image, in our likeness…” - Genesis 1:26

[@ajclements4627]

@@frompartsunknown687 Monotheism came late and slowly to Judaism. Verse 3:23 is part of a creation myth that developed early in the first millennium BCE, at a time when the Hebrew religion was still entirely polytheistic. When God is portrayed in Genesis 3:22 as saying, “Behold, the man is become as one of us,” he was referring to the other gods in the pantheon. Verse 1:26 is generally dated several centuries later - during the Babylonian Exile. Judaism was already monolatrous - acknowledging the existence of other gods who need not be worshipped - and this is a brief reference to those gods. You’re supposedly an “expert” theologian and you’re unaware of this AND that different faiths within Christianity have different biblical canon. Why?

[@christinanicholson1980]

Just cuz God is trying to guild Us to be more like Him- doesn't mean animals can't also have morals .. morals are developing slowly in humans - otherwise it wouldn't be free will

[@ajclements4627]

@@christinanicholson1980 God wants us to be pro slavery, pro genocide, pro slavery, pro kidnapping for sex slavery, sexual assault and child murder? 100% hard pass.

[@drg8687]

I always laugh when theists think "survival of the fittest' Is a moral position. A huge swing and a miss.

[@grabble7605]

To some, it is...But society has largely decided those people are terrible.

[@drg8687]

@@grabble7605 no, it can't ever be. Moral frameworks are concerned with what is right and what is wrong. Survival of the fittest does not care about right or wrong, no matter how you interpret it. It's an amoral position. It doesn't care about right or wrong. You could have a society based upon survival of the fittest but that doesn't make it a moral framework. You are confusing a worldview with a moral system.

[@grabble7605]

@@drg8687 'Survival of the fittest', as a social concept ('Social darwinism'), is a moral framework. The 'fittest' survive and thrive because they are innately better and this justifies whatever they do to their lessers. It's a shit moral framework for terrible people but it is a framework. Ayn Rand was a fan.

[@drg8687]

@@grabble7605 no, that's a worldview, not a moral system. Social Darwinism is not concerned with what is right or wrong. It's a completely different framework.

[@user-sb1vz9pv5y]

It helps to remember that collecting isnt a race and there will probably be someone with a bigger collection. So just enjoy what you collect during your life. Theres always be something you wont get to so just enjoy what you do get.

[@Mephistopheles111]

When Levi said that it was about being in a consensual relationship with God, he failed to mention that if you choose not to be in that relationship, God will burn you in hell forever and ever.

[@gula9993]

Great Goddess first taught us not to eat each other ten thousand years ago

[@memecity9849]

Our morality is different than animals because we created a kind of justice system that rewards or punishes moral and immoral behaviors.

[@paulrichards6894]

animals do exhibit morality though

[@memecity9849]

@paulrichards6894 yes but there's no system of punishment and rewards. They don't have a court system. When an alpha lion kills a cub, he's not going to prison

[@nealjroberts4050]

Actually some animals do. Look at how meerkats punish false reports and monkeys and chimps etc etc

[@memecity9849]

@nealjroberts4050 would you look at that, some monkeys do punish and reward. it's usually with food but they don't have a laws and a criminal system like we do

[@69eddieD]

@@memecity9849 That's an authoritarian mindset, stupid. Your mind has been primed to be raped by religion.

[@mattjohnston2]

Levi sounds much like I might've when I was a young Christian. I think given enough time, if he's exposed to the right resources, he'll eventually find the truth.

[@Hola-ro6yv]

You know the truth? Enlighten us.

[@davidszeremi1786]

When I was a young Christian I used to flip through the Bible and be shocked at what was in it.... It seemed like a big catalogue of sinful behavior even from "Righteous" people

[@GaryRine]

@@Hola-ro6yv there are no gods.... that's the truth

[@mugsofmirth8101]

@@GaryRine you made a claim: "there are no gods... That's the truth." Prove your claim.

[@mugsofmirth8101]

@@GaryRine By the way, thanks for disproving the atheist claim that atheists don't claim there are no gods. I'll just go ahead and screenshot your comment as proof that claim is false.

[@petrlorenc7230]

Man...I'd love to have a beer with Mike & Forrest. During which I'd keep my (usually very restless) mouth shut, because my greatgrandmother taught me to do so in a company of smarter people, than I am.

[@williamgraff7593]

It's funny....I was just telling a close friend that I've come to believe that all I wish to aspire to at this point in my life, is to try to make things a little better for people that I encounter....so strange to hear you say almost exactly the same thing. Thanks, as always, for the clarity.

[@alvarogoenaga3965]

Dawkins' The selfish gene " illustrates how altruism derives from " selfish" entities ( genes) tryng to perpetuate themselves throughout generations. Also, trying to base your morality on ancient folklore might conduce you to very bad results. Ethics also evolve , but it seems religions are stuck in their ancient past.

[@mojokahma6931]

If god knows everything that has happened and everything that will happen in the future then we cannot have free will

[@ericcraig3875]

The bible actually specifically disputes free will.

[@mugsofmirth8101]

9:01 Forrest admits he makes choices of free will in contradiction to atheist / materialist determinism.

[@nealjroberts4050]

​@@mugsofmirth8101 Please demonstrate that Atheism requires the absolute determinism your post implies.

[@generyan2332]

Be a good person because it's a good thing to do? Why not be a bad person because it's a bad thing to do? How about be good because good is good. Or be good because good isn't bad. Great logic.

[@moranjackson7662]

I wonder why everyone misunderstands "survival of the fittest"... It's about fitting into my niche and not dying, not about being stronger.

[@flowingafterglow629]

But he even said that survival of the fittest can be applied at the species level. So what why wouldn't morality work to help perpetuate the survival of the species? Could humanity survive as well as it has without morality? Arguably not. He just ignored his own assessment.

[@insert-name-here6777]

I think ist often understood like the version we have in germany so the nazis could misuse it: "Überleben des Stärkeren" aka "survival of the strongest"

[@moranjackson7662]

@@insert-name-here6777 yes, in principle you're right. But the meaning is similar in English. The expression, afaik, stems from a reporter, oversimplifying the theory of evolution. And in the totally wrong way. But it sounds nice 🙂

[@kinglyzard]

Levi seems to forget that animals have feelings. Emotions lead to emotional bonds which leads to community. If a bunch of social animals want to live together successfully, there arr certain rules. Atheism has nothing to do with it. Theists and atheists are both animals.