Why I Am/Am Not a Christian,

In the second session recorded at CC Exchange 22, Alex O'Connor (Cosmic Skeptic) and Trent Horn (The Counsel of Trent) engaged each other in conversation over the topic of why they are/are not a Christian.
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[@ethanbotterill2743]

I appreciate the way the chairs match their shoes. Whoever made that happen, I see you.

[@ANONM60D]

Hey nice eye!

[@tennicksalvarez9079]

Best comment ever

[@punpai4003]

Civilized comment.

[@MizzouRah78]

Or...it's coincidence.

[@ingenuity168]

Good observation. 😁

[@mchlnhs]

Filming this in heaven was a nice touch

[@3magikarpinamansuit281]

I know its been a year, but this is funny.

[@zissanm3919]

😂😂

[@maolsheachlannoceallaigh4772]

@@3magikarpinamansuit281 after a year and two weeks, it's still funny. Let's come back periodically and see when it stops being funny, if ever.

[@Pretty_Fly_White_Guy]

That’s almost believable 😂 then you see cosmic sceptic is there

[@ReligioCritic]

​@@Pretty_Fly_White_GuyStrongest evidence against Christianity.

[@kevinlee4449]

I’ve been watching cosmic skeptic for a long time and this conversation has really changed my perspective: I too now see Alex as a tall person.

[@zootsoot2006]

You're not talking intellectually speaking I take it.

[@jonathacirilo5745]

@@zootsoot2006 it was a joke i think, but why not exactly?

[@valuerie]

Right?? Damn

[@elainewagnon6690]

I thought it was funny.

[@tsvetanstoychev655]

Is 6.1ft (what the hell is wrong with you people still using this atrocious system) considered tall? It's... it seems kind of average to me. Edit: 6.1ft = 186cm... I am 184 and I'm not considered tall nor am I considered short...

[@jaredlowry3547]

So refreshing that there needn’t be a moderator in this debate. No strawmanning, dodging questions, rabbit trailing, or ad hominems. Just two serious thinkers really listening to each other and talking through what they believe. I’m a Protestant Christian but I greatly respect both of these guys.

[@electrical_cord]

Even as a Catholic, Alex O'Conner is very respectful. Lots of atheists can learn from him in how to have a discussion. And yes, Trent is great. He's always super nice in debates/dialogues.

[@pixboi]

Yes, this is the climate we need instead of the inflammatory fundamendalist vs. Hitchens age

[@thedubwhisperer2157]

jaredlowry, what convinced you to select your particular religion out of the many which are available?

[@gorb_oron]

@@thedubwhisperer2157are you a seeker?

[@thedubwhisperer2157]

@@gorb_oron A what?

[@ryanrogers3610]

My wife's water broke while listening to this. Just thought you all should know.

[@tomyossarian7681]

You fornicator you..

[@mateusztgorak]

Congratulations!

[@Skurian_krotesk]

Damn hopefully you'll be able to fix her water again...

[@joostvanrens]

I broke while listening to this

[@BigPapiLoc]

If you drink it you get superpowers

[@Gill1923]

It’s lovely that we’re starting to see Alex so much in all places. I’ve been here for a while and absolutely delighted by the recognition he has received.

[@joannware6228]

The smartest atheists don't remain atheists, but for Alex it's a career.

[@Gill1923]

@@joannware6228 by that logic Dawkins, Hitchens, Sam Harris and so on arent smart atheists? Lol ok

[@joannware6228]

@@Gill1923 You forgot Hawking. He was one of the smartest. The other three are smart but maybe not the smartest like C. S. Lewis and Edith Stein.

[@Gill1923]

@@joannware6228 What about Hawking? He was an atheist. Also a scientist. And not even close to being as smart on the subject of religion and atheism as the people I had mentioned.

[@joannware6228]

@@Gill1923 Okay I'll cross him off. Thanks.

[@ContriteCatholic]

00:00 Discussion on philosophy of religion and why Trent Horn is a Christian 05:52 The existence of intrinsic human dignity and morality points towards a divine direction. 16:12 The problem of divine hiddenness and non-resistant non-belief raises questions about the existence of a loving God. 20:43 Religion and politics cannot be simply labeled as good or bad. 35:27 A world that journeys to perfection has more goods in it 44:48 Critiquing the problem of evil in Christianity 49:25 The morality of inflicting suffering for a greater good 58:44 Promoting welfare of mentally handicapped humans over non-human animals 1:03:37 Moral debates involve emotive states and differing moral claims. 1:12:53 The Bible's account of God's revelation is progressive in nature. 1:17:57 People will be judged based on their culpability, not just intellectual inquiry. 1:28:26 The problem of evil and falsifiability of Christianity 1:33:01 The problem of suffering is important and should be taken seriously. 1:42:32 Compensation for suffering may justify allowing evil. 1:47:14 Arguments can increase probability of Christianity being true 1:56:02 The existence of suffering and evil is not a reason to be an atheist.

[@Blastoise9000]

Thank you so much for these time stamps!

[@jgmrichter]

Can we get this comment pinned please?

[@wolfegaming36]

I feel like there needs to be a time stamp to 10:22 but I'm not good at writing a quick little title for it. That's when Alex begins to explain why he is an atheist, starting with the problem of needless suffering.

[@lariat_]

@ContriteCatholic MVP of the comment section 😎

[@lariat_]

​@@wolfegaming36yes i think you're right, maybe something like "Religion is a response to human suffering"

[@TheOpenCouchPodcast]

Alex has become my favorite and respectful atheist. He’s sincere and genuine and respectful. He’s definitely an example of someone who disagrees and yet he’s not mocking or insulting the other! Definitely an example for Christian’s as well to follow.

[@gideondavid30]

He carries himself well. But I can't take him that seriously as a thinker. He is too young for one. Articulate yes, but still young.

[@mattheartfollower4123]

@@gideondavid30 It's not age that makes one wise.

[@TickleMeElmo55]

@@mattheartfollower4123 It often does aided with life experience and self-reflection. How many 18-22 yr olds have you met that are wise? Very small percent.

[@TickleMeElmo55]

@@gideondavid30 This. I think people give him too much credit where there shouldn't be any credit.

[@patman142]

@@gideondavid30 one of the most silly comments I have seen in a while

[@BibleLosophR]

This is definitely one the best Christian and Atheist discussions I've ever watched after 30 years of listening/watching/reading hundreds of discussions and debates.

[@streetwisepioneers4470]

Have you seen his debate with William L Craig...if yes what did you make of it?

[@BibleLosophR]

@@streetwisepioneers4470 You mean where Alex interviewed WLC? It wasn't a debate. It was cordial discussion and interview. Alex even admitted that a number of his criticisms a few years back when he was younger were bad objections. That he now recognizes it being older, wiser and more informed when it comes to philosophy and argumentation.

[@basedzealot3680]

It’s because Trent is Catholic. Protestants have no idea what they’re talking about

[@KZSoze]

I think the calm and respectful tone is quite nice; but on substance I don’t really see this as being anything other than par for the course, bad arguments for Christianity.

[@justin10292000]

​@KZSoze Truth is only "bad arguments" to the Spiritually blind.

[@KeithKazamaFlick]

Been watching Alex for years, he always been a smart well spoken lad. big ups

[@roeliethegoat]

Walked for 2 hours while listening to this, and I was thoroughly engaged the whole time. Thanks for this.

[@rosiegirl2485]

I am cooking and have done the same. ⚘

[@zacharyshort384]

@@rosiegirl2485 You walk while you cook? :p

[@Solbashio]

same, but i got hit by car while crossing the street

[@tamago8042]

Doing relatively mundane tasks while listening to a video/podcast is always a nice experience!

[@ChuckLorris]

@@Solbashio F

[@Eliza-cn5ii]

Love this! Nothing better than respectful, reasoned discussions.

[@the-outsider8458]

Sure there is. I'd take being intellectually honest and rigorous combined with logically consistent over "respectful" any day. But that might just be me, I suppose.

[@RobotProctor]

Another atheist here. I am also a nonresistant nonbeliever. In fact I used to believe and realized my prior evidences and personal experiences for my beliefs had more natural reasons. I wish you all the best, Internet comrades. Lots of love.

[@Calx9]

Well said! That matches me perfectly man.

[@JesseDriftwood]

Samesies.

[@SeekingVirtueA]

Yup. Never thought I’d be in those shoes but here we are. Would have liked to hear Alex’s reply about evil in the Bible. That to me is probably my biggest hurdle to belief that Christianity is true. The follow up question was telling of what possibly could be in the Bible that would convince you a loving God didn’t write it.

[@joshs2986]

Hey mate. Just want to challenge you on nonresistant nonbeliever. I'm not saying your not. In my experience though, lots of people say this and then on reflection realise they were resistant. They had just fooled themselves. Again, not saying you are. Just saying sometimes understanding our own motivations are hard

[@alwayslearningtech]

@@joshs2986 Hey mate, I'm replying though you didn't comment to me. Leaving Christianity was a struggle that took me around a decade. I was trying to share the good news and prove the truth of Christianity but I kept coming up against evidence against my claims and reasons to doubt. As someone who desperately wished for Christianity to be true, even after no longer believing it, I can tell you that there's many of us out here who truly desired to believe or continue believing, but became convinced otherwise. Sometimes the truth hurts because it's not what you truly desired with all your heart.

[@loganwillett2835]

Such an awesome conversation! Could listen to these two talk all day

[@paulfriedman]

I expected a good conversation, but this exceeded expecations. There was certainly some repeats from earlier conersations but they injected some new content into this conversation and I was engaged throughout. Keep up the great work.

[@ofeliadiazdedeavila6991]

its so lovely to see two guys who are genuinly interested in finding the truth may GOD bless them both

[@EvilEyEbRoWzz]

Wow... I genuinely didn't think that either guest could bring me anymore "new" arguments to the table that I haven't come across before...boy was I wrong!

[@archangelarielle262]

you must be new to this.

[@Theomatikalli]

Hi @Aadam, what new gems did you discover :) ?

[@Solbashio]

@@archangelarielle262 this comment is gold

[@jimisoulman6021]

Wow! My respect for Cosmic Sceptic has skyrocketed (pardon the pun!). I am really impressed by his integrity and honest enquiry. I wish him well. Thank you CC for hosting and posting this event.

[@japexican007]

Mine went down, he keeps using the same excuse as to why he rejects God and it’s gotten so played out it’s not even worth responding anymore

[@jimisoulman6021]

@C L I think we may yet still be surprised by his journey! I certainly can related to his way of thinking before coming to Christ.

[@LosChongo]

@@japexican007 it’s god’s turn to respond.

[@jessehollenbeck4607]

My respect for him has skyrocketed as well.

[@joannware6228]

The atheist both thinks too highly of himself but also too lowly. He thinks too highly because his pride won't let him admit that he has faults and that he is wrong. He thinks too lowly because this causes him to accept a dismal existence.

[@625098evan]

Alex seems to be a sincere truth seeker, and I love that!

[@OrangeRaft]

He does, but pride will always block the truth even if you are sincere. Truth seekers don’t always find God because there are other things required like repentance and dying to self

[@Nissenov]

@@OrangeRaft Which God do you believe in?

[@OrangeRaft]

@@Nissenov well that’s not a good question unless you are involved in these debates comparing Americanized atheism to Americanized Christianity. But I’m not interested in such comparisons because there are other options like a Heiser type view on the ancient world. The question is of allegiances not “belief”

[@Nissenov]

@@OrangeRaft Fine. Which God do you swear allegiance to?

[@Arbitrary_Moniker]

@@OrangeRaft Yeah, allegiances. So this little game of yours does devolve into tribalism. How dull, and predictably human. Let's not have an informed view of the world, no, let's pick a team, and build a worldview of excuses that always comes back to that team, even though we live in a world that allows us to be more than that.

[@JesseDriftwood]

I’ve listened to this a few times since it came out, and I genuinely appreciate the conversation. I think Alex does a fantastic job presenting his own positions as well as strong counters to Trent’s. I also appreciate how honest Trent seems when trying to understand Alex properly before offering rebuttals. I think these two are some of the best representatives of healthy conversation in this space. Now that it’s been a year I’d love to know Trent’s thoughts on a few things. (If anyone else knows feel free to weigh in!) 1. Did you ever get off the fence? Did you land on ethical veganism or an advocate of factory farming (I imagine neither, because nuance). 2. Around 1:22:00 when using Michael Shermer as an example he says: I think really smart people can come to unintuitive conclusions. This strikes me as the opposite point he wants to make. The world is full of unintuitive truths. Quantum mechanics isn’t intuitive. A globe earth isn’t intuitive. There are countless logic puzzles that demonstrate just how readily our intuitions can fail us. It seems to me that a smart the smarter a person is, the more willing they should be to accept unintuitive answers when related to life’s most complex questions. 3. I forget the rest. But just want to reiterate, I like Trent a lot. I think he’s be a very fun person to get a beer with and chat philosophy. Much love.

[@HereTakeAFlower]

Number 2 I want to give my two cents about, since it's something I've had my own issues with. Intellect is mostly pattern recognition, the universe is very complex and apparently chaotic. It happens that smart people may notice new hidden patterns and expose them to the world, and (maybe irrationally to a degree) they must fight so that they are not relegated back to the chaotic background at least for as long as it takes to properly assess their worth. A very smart person could theoretically create a defense so good for their theory that others who undertake the duty of trying to prove it false, fail. Eventually someone, or the smart man himself, may prove it wrong, but the time between him finding a theory and someone proving it wrong (we are assuming it's wrong) is a lapse of time in which great intelligence made up and sustained a lie. Sorry English is not my first language and I may have messed up somewhere.

[@the-outsider8458]

We apparently have two different understandings for what the word "honest" entails.

[@Battousai-hd6is]

This is one of my most favorite Christian/Atheist dialogues of all time. Keep up the awesome work Cameron!

[@johannaquinones7473]

I agree! I was so moved by the level of respect, engagement, knowledge that each of these men displayed. Their sincere interest in capturing the other person’s meaning and line of thought, just admirable. As a christian, I have to say I admire Alex’ approach, he is incredibly humble to always leave the door open ((however slim)) to the possibility of him abandoning atheism, I hold on to the hope God will reveal himself to him in a way he finds irrefutable. I say that out of love and respect for the beautiful soul he is.

[@chrissonofpear1384]

@@johannaquinones7473 What would you say was irrefutable? John 14:12, would be one way. 2 Samuel 24 would be another - but boy, it would be messy. Or Numbers 13:13? It all depends what is being revealed, I guess, if God is so mutable, or changes His ways, or at least - changes what faces and traits, are shown. And Satan never got hidden from - even post high treason, his dubious suggestions about Job got given extraordinary weight and audience.

[@Joe_mammma]

@@chrissonofpear1384 "Because the Bible says so" ought never be enough evidence, reason or argument to convince anyone of the truth of the bible. Of course its going to have "trust me bro this book is true and people who say it isn't are idiots" ("only the fool says in his heart...") sort of verses. All religions and cults have these self preservation/protection devices built in.

[@Joe_mammma]

@@johannaquinones7473 If you're a Christian, how do you deal with the fact that your God has either favoured you in giving you the sort of brain that accepts the evidence for theism and not the evidence for atheism, or the sort of personal evidence that would convince anyone first hand, thus resigning you to an endless fate of pleasure and happiness. But he has given non-resistant non-belivers the sort of brains that are not convinced by the evidence for theism and are convinced by the evidence for atheism, or he denies them the undeniable first hand evidence that he gives to theists, thus resigning atheists to an endless fate of suffering and torment? How do you deal with that on a "all loving god" world view?

[@johannaquinones7473]

@@Joe_mammma Where is a person’s free will in all of this? I don’t see it like you do. Yes, everybody faces different circumstances, have different mental abilities, etc. and it is true God has very different ways of in which He makes Himself known to people, but I think it is up to each individual to ultimately make the choice for his/herself what to believe. For me it has been a journey, the more I learn about Christianity, the more I am convinced, and if I find myself doubting I put my questions to Him. I trust that He can help me either find answers or dissipate the feeling I need the answer to believe. I am not by any means saying to have faith without reason, but there is a point when you just decide that the evidence you have is good enough.

[@valkopuhelin2581]

Good points on both sides. Thanks for stirring some thoughts. 🙂

[@agitatedaligator5340]

Cosmic skeptic has been a huge influence in my life. Love him :-)

[@marishasveganworld2240]

He is brilliant ✨

[@katrinayakizz]

Same

[@Macluny]

me too... mf made me go vegan xD

[@marishasveganworld2240]

@@Macluny Now he is no longer vegan. So sad and disappointing, isn’t it? 😭

[@Macluny]

@@marishasveganworld2240 yes. I'd love to hear the detailed reason.

[@TheKorbi]

This was a very good discussion. They work together to create a shared improved understanding, as opposed to fight against each other.

[@jimothynimajneb622]

I’m an atheist but I do enjoy Trent Horn. I think he’s a very intelligent individual, speaks very eloquently, and can bring up points and responses that make you think. I will say, and I may be a weird case as an atheist, but I generally don’t like the problem of evil. As intuitively it may be for me to think that there’s no way a loving god could allow for all this seemingly gratuitous evil, it very well may be the case that if he were to exist then it would be justified in some sense.

[@tomyossarian7681]

I agree entirely, but the example of someone beating a kid on the side road made Trent fidget a bit - if you accept god has his reasons, you cant back away because "you understand parent - child dynamic". Either you can act on your own and counter god's decision to have a child ripped apart, or you have to accept any murder, rape, robbery and whatnot as part of gods plan - after all "if he were to exist then it would be justified in some sense". As with other arguments, Christians want to have it both ways, and that's just 🤮

[@jimothynimajneb622]

@@tomyossarian7681 I agree for sure.

[@davethebrahman9870]

Merely positing that an explanation may exist is not to provide an argument; it is merely to assert that one thinks such an explanation is possible. Until that fact is established the ‘argument from evil’ stands.

[@MrBanksLP]

I was also interested in what arguments he would bring forth. Sadly the first argument was the argument citing Anthony flee ... Hm.

[@pg1448]

Agreed. Because I can't help but intuitively feel that these second order goods like compassion, forgiveness or bravery enrich the human experience in a way that even a loving, perhaps especially a loving God, would allow them. The idea that a loving God necessarily needs to provide us some luxurious paradise just doesn't sit right with me

[@JaySeamus]

Man, thank you CC Team for hosting cool stuff like these.

[@joannware6228]

The smartest atheists don't remain atheists, but for Alex it's a career.

[@JazzyArtKL]

@@joannware6228 Very wrong there, Jo Ann. Atheist see the truth. We can do without an imaginary skydaddy.

[@luisbarbosa8136]

@@JazzyArtKL you can not even stablish morality values ahaha

[@JazzyArtKL]

@@luisbarbosa8136 Of course we can. Check out Prof Sapolsky's talk on this where he clearly explains that morality is engrained in human nature.

[@ChristenDOM010]

I'm very excited for this one, probably gonna watch it this weekend. Greetings from the Netherlands! We're a dutch apologetics squad. Groetjes uit Nederland :)

[@CJ-sw8lc]

I love the Netherlands! (I'll hou Nederland...?)

[@ChristenDOM010]

@@CJ-sw8lc Amazing! You're getting there, it's: Ik hou van Nederland.

[@aidanya1336]

Groetjes van een nederlandse atheist. Nog nooit een vervelend gesprek gehad met een gelovige hier. (greetings from a dutch atheist. Never had an annoying/bad conversation with a believer here)

[@CJ-sw8lc]

@@ChristenDOM010 Ahh! I need to practice more 🧐

[@ChristenDOM010]

@@aidanya1336 Groetjes terug :)Hoelang ben je al overtuigd van het atheïsme?

[@kailerpetersen6404]

I am an atheist but find this explanation and defense of theology quite well developed and honest (even though I disagree)

[@AquinasBased]

do you think that with this defense and explanation presented to you, it might be a better idea to adopt a theological worldview for the sake of happiness and personal fulfillment?

[@kailerpetersen6404]

@@AquinasBased no I’m quite happy and it would be a futile effort as you can’t choose to believe. Sure I can act like I believe but that won’t have the same effect and would result in me knowing I’m living in a way that I disagree with which probably wouldn’t make me happy

[@Reverendshot777]

​@@AquinasBased A better explanation than others have presented is not automatically convincing. You can recognise something is well presented and argued but still be more convinced by the other side of the argument.

[@DubioserAltschauerberger1510]

Religious people are soaking so called fulfillment out of 2000 year old fairy tales for adults. Just that fact alone makes you religious losers hella ridiculous.

[@exeterman2]

It's well developed compared to other Christian arguments, but still laughably flawed.

[@NeutralMjolkHotel]

As an atheist, I very much enjoyed this discussion, including Trent’s points. Well-spoken and intelligent, though I do disagree and think his response to the racism and MLK question was a total dodge. Subbed for more chats like this.

[@joannware6228]

The atheist both thinks too highly of himself but also too lowly. He thinks too highly because his pride won't let him admit that he has faults and that he is wrong. He thinks too lowly because this causes him to accept a dismal existence.

[@sterlinghawkins5182]

@@joannware6228 oh dear god…

[@pushanka]

@@joannware6228 rofl what a terrible take, this is exactly why most Theists are laughed out of the room. Trent approaches this with empathy and you spew ridiculousness.

[@NeutralMjolkHotel]

@@joannware6228 haha hot take there, Jo Ann Ware. Good thing nobody agrees.

[@zacharyshort384]

@@joannware6228 You've only pasted this comment a handful of times. MOAR.

[@mac3441]

This was fantastic. Love Alex’s heart so much.

[@minor00]

Love the patience of both speakers. That's probably why I was able to watch it until the end. They sounded like friends. Personally, I think a pragmatic justification for being a Christian is the hope for a renewed physical life without suffering and evil. If there is no everlasting and relatable hope after death, then one day everything will die and nothing will matter about my life. It may have mattered to me or others when we were alive, but in the end it will be the same. On the other hand, a new kind of relational and physical life in a world that has continuity from this life, yet suffering, evil, and death are not present....that's a uniquely hopeful possibility. This isn't to say there isn't any need for a epistemic justification of Christianity, but only that there is a pragmatic encroachment on the epistemic, as mentioned in the latest Reasonable Faith podcast. I find this to be a missing component of most explanations of why many of us become Christians. Another component can be found in what is often called reformed epistemology. I've already wrote enough though, but these would be three reasons why I am a Christian.

[@Her_Viscera]

Unfortunately the cost of living as a Christian isnt nothing! So we have to use some reason to determine if it's a good bet :)

[@iSkulk]

If one day everything will be gone, and nothing matters inherently, then you get to decide for yourself what matters to you. I don't believe I have an afterlife waiting for me, so I have to make sure I live and love to the fullest while I can! I appreciate your well thought out comment, my friend. All the best.

[@davethebrahman9870]

Let him believe this who can! I’d like to believe that every woman is attracted to me, but the evidence is against it.

[@minor00]

@@iSkulk Thanks for reading my long comment(s) and replying! I agree that if atheism is true, everything will one day be gone and nothing matters inherently so you might as well live your life in whatever way seems best to you. I'm glad to hear your way includes loving to the fullest! Sometimes love is hard and even costly, and I'm guessing we'd both agree that the most loving thing a person can do for another would be to unexpectedly voluntarily choose to take the painful death that someone should've had so that they could live. For example, when Yondu unexpectedly dies for Quill. In Christianity, it's Jesus who unexpectedly dies for even the ones who rejected and killed him, in order that they would live. Even if you think it's a fictional story, I hope you get a chance, if you already haven't, to read a couple of the four gospel accounts of Jesus. Or if you don't want to read them, try watching "The Chosen", which is a top notch TV series on the story (with some creative license). Obviously as a Christian, I believe the gospel accounts are more than fiction, but even if we never agree on that, I hope you'll be inspired by the amazing love modeled in Jesus. Also, thanks for calling me friend. I hope for you all the best as well!

[@minor00]

@@Her_Viscera For sure. There is definitely a cost. Epistemic justification is critical as well!

[@jessegonsalves5412]

Cameron, PLEASE keep making videos! I hope your channel continues forever

[@lyterman]

I'm thankful for thoughtful and charitable interlocutors like Alex who can help us understand our beliefs and God better through these types of discussions. Perhaps that's one moral good that could come from some non-resistive unbelief 😉

[@davidlovesyeshua]

As Alex would say, lucky you to benefit from Alex's non-consensually being withheld sufficient evidence/experience/whatever to believe.

[@peterhudson5748]

What is Alex’s “threshold” and how is it objectively wrong?

[@brendankelly6487]

By Jesus Christ you will be saved. Thank you and goodnight

[@blackbeauty5817]

57:09, but the thing is, God is not simply smacking bottoms. He's giving 10 year olds leukaemia or doing other heinous things. Even parents with moral responsibility have certain boundaries

[@Ninkumpop]

as an agnostic I would like to play devil's advocate. God isn't necessarily giving kids leukaemia but rather he's allowing it. it's the same as seeing someone get hit by a car and not stopping it rather than pushing them.

[@erectilereptile7383]

⁠​⁠@@Ninkumpop I am also an agnostic, but I must object - if God set the world into motion (that includes the entire universe) then this child dying of leukemia, this person being hit by the car was certainly part of God’s plan if he did not stop it.

[@redmusic26]

@@erectilereptile7383 I'm admittedly not an agnostic lol, but I must respond. The fact that something happened is not evidence that God willed it.

[@foxwilliam3655]

Everything happens because of God's will, you cannot claim he is all powerful and then just isn't responsible for everything he has infinite control over

[@anthonyharrell4547]

I sincerely enjoyed this conversation

[@jessep9671]

I was obsessed with apologetics and taught it to high schoolers in church for years. I now fall into the non-resistent non-believer category. I eventually couldn't help but realize that my determination was to support Christianity, instead of starting with 0 assumptions and aiming for the truth. I've had no spiritual experiences, even despite praying for an hour long drive every day for years. I was one of the "overcommitted" Christians, and now I just look back and cringe.

[@tomyossarian7681]

I'm not going for sucking on each other's members, but I guess you have nothing to cringe about - it is common case that people have neither time nor strength of will to start from 0 and look at the claims impartially, especially when they have been indoctrinated as kids and live in tight communities that are bound by religion, church etc. I wasn't in that position, but I guess I would go through the same process. At some point I would need to know what the hell are facts about Jesus, resurrection, Genesis etc. I don't see how someone with average intellectual ability can swallow all the half baked answers, once they start asking the questions. In any case, good luck!

[@tonywallens217]

Well that sucks lol

[@JosiahG24]

What evidence made you leave a relationship with Jesus?

[@tristanrenteria515]

@@JosiahG24 I think it’s more of the lack of evidence of the god in the Bible.

[@JosiahG24]

@@tristanrenteria515 The question of honest seekers looking for proof of Christianity is bogus. God’s raising His Son from the dead is the only proof, and that proof is infinitely capable of settling the mind of anyone who is concerned and who is sincere. So the question is not what proof is there of Christianity, because we are not dealing with Christianity. We are dealing with Christ. We are dealing with a man who became flesh, walked among men, gave His life for man and, to complete it, rose on the third day from the dead. The question is not what you think of Christianity but what you think of Christ and what you are going to do about Him.

[@YuGiOhDuelChannel]

Trent has such an amazing way of fully fleshing out what someone is asking or trying to say, that is definitely what makes him special at this debate stuff.

[@cheftr1]

Interesting take. I find him quite different. Often, when he is fleshing something out, he he just changes what is being said. Example when the talk about the Problem of Evil. Trent changes it into "Why God let's bad stuff happen". If that were the problem of Evil, it wouldn't be considered a problem. The switch from discussing "How can Perfectly Good create an absence of itself and it still be Perfectly Good" into "Why does Perfectly Good allow bad things to happen" are fundamentally different questions. Trent's changed question assumes there is no Problem of Evil (creation of evil) and asks why God allows (already created) Evil to continue existing.

[@cheftr1]

@FPT Bot They are fundamentally different in that one asks about actualization and the other asks about sustainment. Trent knows this but does it anyway.

[@noahwinslow3252]

Trent has a great way of confidently not understanding the question

[@King-uj1lh]

@@cheftr1 both questions are part of the problem of evil, though.

[@cheftr1]

@@King-uj1lh If asked one question and you decide to answer the other, it doesn't really matter that they both are found as chapters in the problem of evil book. They are entirely different arguements dealing with the Problem of Evil, with different premises and different conclusions.

[@frankiemiller5364]

Alex is so suave, calm and collected, a very impressive showing good sir. Keep up demonstrating what atheists can really be 👍🏽

[@Staremperor]

"What atheists can really be" - well, anything that theists can be. We are all just people from obnoxious a**holes to champions of humanity. Whether person believes in God, gods or none doesn't affect it.

[@williamdowling7718]

@@Staremperor in my experience, believing you're one of God's chosen people definitely lends itself towards obnoxious assholes. There are indeed a handful of very outspoken atheists... But the other side of the coin is Christian missionaries, of which there are exponentially more. And their main job is to travel the world and tell people they're filthy sinners who deserve hell except that some guy sacrificed himself so that if only you worship him, you can avoid eternal he'll fire.

[@gideondavid30]

@@williamdowling7718 Are you objecting to the message or the messengers? If I had to deliver you disturbing news, and you wouldn't like it, should I just not tell you anything? Maybe a hurricane is about to hit the beach, and I tell you go inland, would that make me an obnoxious person?

[@ck58npj72]

@@gideondavid30 From "The good news bible" then yes!

[@DatHombre]

^Im an atheist, but I certainly think loud obnoxious atheists are far more common (hence the original comment and it's number of likes, since people agree that he's setting a better example than we have seen countless times). Sure, missionaries are spreading that message, but genuine ones are doing it out of the goodness of their hearts (well not exactly, but the point is that they aren't doing it due to ego). Atheists are constantly are just doing an ego battle of who's smarter/who was so dumb that they got brainwashed, and while theists arent immune from the ego battle of "you're so dumb god is right in front of you idiot you think we all came from nothing??? Hahaha idiot", they are still, at least seemingly, far less likely to engage in the battle of egos, assuming they're genuinely trying to live up to what their book has taught them. Since to them, it's very serious, literally about heaven and hell, and to us its just an argument to get into for the sake of arguing.

[@Wishlake]

That argument at 56:00 just floored me.

[@Gabreyes093]

I subscribed to Trent because of the way he argued for his belief. Although I am an agnostic atheist, I like to challenge my existing beliefs. I only recently discovered Alex and his channel. In this discussion Alex was clear with his explanations and Trent did not seem to answer directly. In short, I will be consuming a lot of Alex's content this week. Great stuff!

[@gehrig7593]

Christians never answer directly, because they can't, there's no argument for them to make. Expecially his orrible answer about slavery really tells you everything you have to know about the intrinsic evilness of religion.

[@Stuugie.]

Yeah I noticed that too. Trent when his ideas are backed into a corner seems to divert from the subject. Alex brought that up several times in this discussion and Trent never adequately engaged with Alex's point. Trent did this in his debate with Destiny on abortion too. He is very civil and his points are very well crafted and informed though, they both did pretty well I think

[@SimplyStrength043]

@@Stuugie.did Trent subvert from the subject in the abortion discussion with destiny?

[@brendankelly6487]

​@@SimplyStrength043 No Trent destroyed him 😂

[@SimplyStrength043]

@@brendankelly6487 that’s what I thought

[@hannavanderberg1673]

Alex is a very charming atheist in my eyes. He has real empathy for deep depression and suffering.

[@amizan8653]

Empathy for deep depression and suffering is completely independent of religious belief. There are wonderful atheists and terrible atheists. They're wonderful Christians and terrible Christians. There's wonderful Jews and terrible Jews. Etc. Religious belief has nothing to do with it

[@510tuber]

The difference between atheists and Christians is being an atheist tells you nothing about that person other than they don't believe in a god. They don't have doctrines. Christianity on the other hand has a book full of terrible things that even the "good" ones subscribe to.

[@HarrDarr]

@@amizan8653 if religion doesn't make you a better person what is the utility for it

[@amizan8653]

@@HarrDarr I think the utility existed in the past. If humans work together as a group, it makes them more powerful altogether compared to individuals. I think religion in the early days was used to get people to form groups where members of the group were even willing to die for the objective of the religious group leader(s). Such a group would have more power and out-compete other groups of humans. Also, humans are extremely afraid of death in terms of what death truly is: the unescapable, permanent end of one's existence, where they return to the state they were in before they were born. Religions all promise some form of afterlife, which is a coping mechanism to not accept with death really is. Anyways, these are simply guesses of mine as to the utility of religion. I can't prove that these are true or not. They're simply what I think.

[@pnut3844able]

As everyone should

[@davidthornton2788]

Great conversation. Im an Athiest and I liked Trents approach and deminer.

[@johnwick2018]

Demeaner

[@johnwick2018]

Damn it!!! Its demeanour

[@davidwolves5943]

1 hour 12 minutes in to realize that the crux of Alex's resistance to Christianity is him not feeling that there is a good reason ;that makes sense, as to why God allows suffering.

[@tjaysteno]

Why's it so bright, was this shot in heaven?! That's one way to win an argument, well played...

[@alleydi8120]

So much respect for Alex. Well done Trent, always impressed with your answers.

[@williammcenaney1331]

Trent said he would need to be a vegan or defend factory farming. But that's a false dichotomy because a non-vegan can buy food and other products from local farms and farmers' markets. If I need to buy some products from a supermarket, I can buy only products that factory farms don't produce. When you have to buy groceries from a store selling factory-farmed foods, you have to see whether you cooperate directly or remotely with the factory farmers. Say I'll die if I don't buy a factory farm makes. Should I die because I'm against factory farming?

[@Elton.G.Joao-filmmaker]

@CosmicSkeptic thank you for your work in these debates

[@justforrfunnn]

Thanks Trent and Alex. I’m writing this only 45 minutes in, so my apologies if I’m writing prematurely - regarding the objective good God and an existence of evil. Alex wanted a Christian answer. Well Trent could have said we live in a broken world. From his Catholic belief… we did live in a perfect world. That’s was before the original sin.

[@sylvilaguscunicularius3155]

You’ll find that when the debate goes tough for the Christians, they often drop the name Jesus or the name Bible from the conversation and solely rely on the broad religious position instead of specifics like the biblical stories. It’s harder to argue against a vague definition of god or several religions/denominations rather than just one.

[@nelson6702]

My physical suffering comes and goes. There is no remedy. It shrinks my world. Maybe your compassion does something for you but it does nothing for my suffering.

[@jacks.6872]

Wow, I oftentimes find myself disagreeing with whichever Christian Alex debates with, but I'm finding that Trent is doing a great job with taking him on.

[@badboyb123-n9k]

Lmao until you find out he worships the largest pedo-ring on the planet labeled as a "church"

[@Bosse_C]

Really great talk. Thanks to you both and special thanks to invloved effort to make ALL this happen, technicians and such

[@defeatingdefeaters]

This is very good. Thanks for sharing 👏🏽

[@philosophicaljay3449]

As a polytheist, I find it fascinating to watch these types of discussions between atheists and monotheists, as I can often find myself agreeing with either side or neither side on some issues. I find the intellectually honest, civil discussions happening between atheists and monotheists recently to be a very big step of from the type of discourse we typically found on KZbin a decade ago. I hope that things continue in this more civil direction in the future.

[@jkid2467]

❤

[@glebkamnev7006]

Out of curiosity, whats your Religion? And what points do you disagree with on both sides? :)

[@philosophicaljay3449]

@@glebkamnev7006 Hellenismos, Greek Polytheism. I tend towards reconstructionism, but typically use the term "Revivalist". As for things I agree with on each side, Things I agree with Alex on: 1) I agree with Alex on the Problem of Divine Hiddenness, at least when it comes to religions like Christianity and Islam within which God demands worship. Within many religions, including my own, the Gods do not demand worship, nor do they necessarily desire it. Worship isn't for the sake of the Gods, it doesn't get us a better place in an afterlife, etc. Religions like this have no issue with Divine Hiddenness. I also would take things a step further than Alex and say that Divine Hiddenness is even WORSE for Christians, Muslims, etc. because of the fact that non-resistant non-believers can end up believers of many different religions (take me, for instance, that went from non-resistant non-belief to Polytheism). According to most standard theological ideas on the afterlife within Christianity and Islam, I am hell-bound merely because my non-resistant non-belief led me to the wrong religion, and that is problematic. 2) I do tend to side with Alex on the Problem of Evil in THIS discussion, but that is because they are both coming at it with the conception that a world without evil is a possible world and thus the existence of evil needs an explanation. I think that a world without evil would be a perfect world, but perfection only exists for the Gods and the Forms. Anything beyond that will have imperfections (take a sphere, for example, we can mathematically understand what a perfect sphere is but we also understand, due to our knowledge of physics, that such a thing cannot actually exist in the world). If you start with the idea that the world inevitably will have SOME evils, that is where I think various theodicies, like some used by Trent, work, but as it seems Trent maintains that a world without evil is possible, I tend to agree moreso with Alex's criticisms here. Things I agree with Trent on: 1) While it is moreso an agreement with Pruss and Koons, that infinite causal chains as an explanation cause more problems than they solve. I do think that the Grim Reaper Paradox, and variations of it, helps to suggest that our causal history must be finite. 2) I do agree with him that, in regards to historical miracles, that Jesus resurrection has better evidence going for it than many non-Christian ones. I think that is, however, in large part due to Christian dominance in the world almost dictating what texts got preserved, and I also do not think that that actually means that Christianity is true rather than Polytheism (Jesus' Resurrection is consistent with Polytheism, so non-Christian miracles not having as good of evidence as the Resurrection isn't an issue if the evidence is still substantial enough). I could go on, but that would require rewatching the video to see what they covered here.

[@Detson404]

Polytheism is a much more coherent idea.

[@introvertedchristian5219]

That was a great discussion.

[@robg5654]

both sides made brilliant points i think its these discussions that will eventually lead us to the truth that is if we ever have enough time to develop the concepts before extinction

[@Carlos-fl6ch]

From the get go it seems that TH is actually saying that the universe owes us an explanation and if science at any point cannot help us get the explanations than all bets are of and anything that gives us an explanation is justified. This off course is epistemic bankruptcy. The most scientific position one can take in such cases is I don't know. Period! Else you're walking close to the line of I don't know therefore god.

[@FahimusAlimus]

I’m looking forward to Trent’s journey towards veganism.

[@theunrepentantatheist24]

I think he is more likely to give up Jesus

[@FahimusAlimus]

@@theunrepentantatheist24 I doubt it.

[@amizan8653]

I wish

[@tennicksalvarez9079]

Lol

[@zavaughnkirkland5892]

​​@@theunrepentantatheist24 He would have to give up scriptural orthodoxy to be vegan. In Romans we read that "He who is weak in faith eats vegetables only". God instructs Peter to "Raise, kill, and eat". Jesus informes us personally that "all foods are clean for you to eat" so it's obvious to me that moral veganism is just a subjective individual elevating beasts up to the level of humanity. I don't have enough faith to look at farm animals as enslaved.😂

[@lesmen4]

I am highly sympathetic towards Alex O'Connor concern over why there is suffering and pain with us. .

[@NoInjusticeLastsForever]

The immense pointless suffering of trillions of trillions of trillions of innocent animals on this planet alone should be enough to shake any believer's faith to its core.

[@lesmen4]

@@NoInjusticeLastsForever what i begin to believe is that the pain, suffering and death in any form is part of our life on earth no matter how painful it is.. what matters the most is quality of our soul that matters the afterlife that i believe in. Jesus set a precedent for this process.

[@Arbitrary_Moniker]

@@lesmen4 In English, please.

[@royalrejects]

@@lesmen4 do you have any actual reason to hold that belief, or is it just what you’d like to be true?

[@japexican007]

@@NoInjusticeLastsForever indeed I agree pointless suffering created by man who rejected God and now God has to clean up our mess except atheists still reject God while making him the excuse as to why pain and suffering exists lol trololol

[@shaid153]

How did no one ask why he feels Christianity is the only religion. Its the acorn in his belief, if he was raised Muslim would he still speak the same, hindu, budist? That's why I can't take anyone serious who believes their God is the only one. How do you explain all the religions.. A lot of the stories pre dated abrahamic religions like the pagans, Celtics, egytians all have similar archetypes that grifters repackaged into Christianity/Judaism/Muslim. One thing they all did was go from polytheism to monotheism. They all have a singular figurehead who is the conduit to God. It was perfect subjugation. Here we are still arguing over which grifter is more right.

[@redmusic26]

To say that someone is likely to grow up believing the religion around them doesn't say anything about the truth of that religion; you can't honestly dismiss any religion because of that fact. It's rather easy to "explain all the religions"; there are many different peoples and cultures lol. I also think it's quite obviously problematic to admit that you can't take anyone claiming that a religion is true seriously; you're arguing with bad faith from the very onset. In regards to "archetypes" being present in religions preceding the Abrahamic faiths, sure, why not? Perhaps there was some truth in them. Perhaps the faiths following them found them to be true and thus incorporated them into their religion. Too little cynicism is dangerous, but so is too much.

[@VitxlBoii]

I JUST STARTED HAVING AN EXISTENTIAL CRISIS 14 MINUTES INTO THE VIDEO AND IM TYPING THIS TO BREAK THE TRANCE THANK YOU

[@tennicksalvarez9079]

Hey bro Hope ur doing well

[@peterp-a-n4743]

Almost all former Christians eventually enjoy the freedom from religious delusions and appreciate reality.

[@Real-HumanBeing]

@@peterp-a-n4743 Listen to Sunset Limited

[@hummingbird1375]

I KEEP HAVING EXISTENTIAL CRISES WHEN WATCHING DEEP DEBATE VIDEOS AND ALWAYS TELL MYSELF I NEED TO STOP BUT I AM SO DRAWN TO THEM THAT I CAN'T STOP WATCHING THEM. IT'S A CURSE.

[@peterp-a-n4743]

@@hummingbird1375 no it's your brain trying to resolve an important issue. Existential crises only thrive in a backdrop of delusion. A disappointment with reality is just the mourning of a falsehood (disappointment in German is "Enttäuschung" which is literally "disabusement")

[@brando3342]

Hey Cameron. Someone mentioned having more Eastern Orthodox people on. Would you consider reaching out to Jonathan Pageau to come on? We could all learn some fascinating stuff from him!

[@CristianaCatólica]

THE TRUE CHURCH IS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

[@brando3342]

@@CristianaCatólica The true church is the universal church. That's catholic, with a little "c".

[@Thedisciplemike]

@@brando3342 or "orthodox" with a little "o"

[@brando3342]

@@Thedisciplemike Touche 🤣🤣

[@davidjanbaz7728]

@@brando3342 Universal as in Church of the First-born Hebrews 12:23 so it's not limited to c or o traditions.

[@paulcrowder]

I was really surprised to get to the end of this video and find that this is a Christian KZbin channel. Props to you for posting a video that undermines the arguments for your religion, I guess.

[@CSB458]

I enjoyed this diplomatic discourse between these two gentlemen very much.

[@CSB458]

Marking 1:13:31 for my own reference

[@oliverthompson9922]

The moral argument from Christians just seems contradictory to me. They say there is transcendental, objective morality , which is how we instinctively know what is good and bad, yet if we ask why there is so much suffering and terrible things happening or why the old testament condones slavery, its because we can't know God's mind or he's doing it for some greater good. That doesn't sound very objective to me at all.

[@gangstaelegantproductions2780]

You know everything?

[@oliverthompson9922]

@@gangstaelegantproductions2780 No, but I know that if morality is objective then the god of the bible is not good.

[@dominicluke7]

I’m Catholic and love these debates. Alex is incredibly respectful and knowledge. God bless💪🙏

[@shuvamsingh702]

Science Bless ❤

[@viancavarma3455]

how articulate alex is never fails to blow my mind

[@fleshedexperience]

It's scary.

[@ATOK_]

He has watched all of Hitchens videos and read his books

[@bryn3652]

He's made himself sound smarter by changing the way he speaks

[@Spasaymoostard]

Or he's actually that smart and has only gotten smarter...@@bryn3652

[@justin10292000]

@viancavarma3455 But Alex is still wrong. Charm, sophistication and intelligence don't equate to wisdom and spiritual insight.

[@seth8395]

The exchange at 55:58 is so insanely funny to me because of the way that Trent just dismantles his own point by comparing the hypothetical to slavery.

[@kenhilker2507]

Trent at 5:10 "Infinity is just a really bad thing to bring in the world" Trent at 8:25 "God is infinite"

[@trygvenyhaug6668]

Well, his view would be that God is outside of the world So in that sense, those statements are not inconsistent.

[@kenhilker2507]

@@trygvenyhaug6668 ok, but what makes an infinite bad inside the world, yet totally acceptable outside of the world?

[@trygvenyhaug6668]

@@kenhilker2507 It seems like he was talking about an infinite series of events, which wouldn't make a lot of sense, because if there was an infinite number of events in the past, you would never get to today. I don't think he's talking about God in this infinite series of events sense. Also, our understanding of infinities is based on the rules and laws we observe in this world, but if you think of God as outside of our world, he wouldn't be limited by those laws.

[@ChrisSena]

@@trygvenyhaug6668 ​ "If there was an infinite number of events in the past, you would never get to today" That is mathematically false. In the same way that one can prove there are an infinite number of rational (and irrational) numbers between 0 and 1, there are an infinite number of moments in time between a hypothetical origin moment of the universe and now. In fact there are an infinite number of moments in any day (or indeed any period of time).

[@trygvenyhaug6668]

@@ChrisSena That's a different infinity. The argument is that time had a beginning. If time did not have a beginning(the kind of infinite he is talking about) you would never get to today. It is absurd to say that there is an infinite number of days in the past. You can't count to infinity, but theres still an infinite number of "moments" between two points in time. That would be the case if time had a beginning too.

[@amandasomething538]

57 minutes in… did Trent just casually say that hitting children (aka “spanking”) is acceptable and synonymous with disciple? Ughhhh. 1hr 15minish: There are actually lots of people who would not agree that all or any inmate slavery is just…

[@maxwellsdemon10]

THANK YOU! I felt like this was super weird, how he just casually dropped "it's okay to have inmates as slaves" and "surely nobody could have anything against me hitting my child"

[@kamana6435]

Wow that was an amazing discussion one of the best I have seen on a Religious channel between an Atheist and a Christian. It made me think to myself why I am not a Christian and have more affinity to Eastern Religions. So thought I would share my perspective. I know the main audience of this channel is likely to be Christians so I wanted to say I am not here to criticize Christians but to critique the ideas of Christianity as I have encountered them. Humans have feelings ideas do not. Having listened to Alex's points helped me clarify the clash I en-counted when studying Christianity. I don't want to write a whole essay so I will summarise my points succinctly. I feel the main reason I never became a Christian is the character of God in the Bible seems to behave in contradictory ways. Trent said in his talk that God defines Morality which then makes Morality arbitrary as God has done things which seem Immoral if done by humans. If a scientist developed a device that flooded the whole earth and killed all Animals and Human life (Plus insects etc..) that would be a immense evil. But God floods the Earth killing all life bar a few and that is totally ok because God is morality by definition. A War-lord commands his men to kill a group of people (including women and children) and we call it a genocide and say its Evil. God commands the Slaughter of the Canaanite's and that is totally fine. Trying to use God as a measure of what is Moral seems to be like using a ruler that randomly changes length every time we try to measure something. It would be useless as we would have no idea how to measure anything reliably. Second point is God is unfair in the way he communicates with his creation. God through his Grace makes his existence known to some as recorded in the bible but not others. Alex as an example has sought God intently as have I in my past. But God has not made his existence 100% clear to me or him. But God in the Bible talks to various characters and makes himself known. To me that is like a teacher who sets a quiz (Salvation) but gives some hints to some pupils and not to others. A teacher who behaved that way would be disciplined or sacked as it is unfair. It was this constant whip lash between the character of God that made me doubt the ideas in Christianity. It seems that God is allowed to abuse his power because he is God. But if Humans behave that way we call them Tyrants and Dictators. Seems like a might is right kind of argument. Trent tried to defend this by saying God is the creator so can behave how he wants and also mentioned his being a Parent gives him authority over his children which is true. But if a parent tried to kill their children no Court is going to let them go free just because they say they brought the child into the world they have a right to take it out. That would not be a good reason. We take into consideration the rights of the child to life. In Eastern religions, Buddhism, Jainism the principle of Ahimsa is the Goal to make one's conduct as Non- Violent as best as you can. This principle seems more applicable to Humans as it is not as arbitrary as the Morality of God in the bible. If Gods Morality is so much beyond what we can understand then its like someone telling you they have the knowledge of ultimate Truth Morality and everything but it is too advanced for your mind. So its totally useless in the real world where humans have to navigate. Finally I wanted to comment on Trent's example in the Q&A about happy to accept 10 million pounds for his house being destroyed but not happy if it involved someone sleeping with his wife. I feel the analogy is flawed as God does not let us choose the suffering we experience in life so we are forced to endure suffering against our wishes. Even if the result is a great reward in Heaven it does not negate the suffering we experience here on Earth as we are powerless in general when it comes to suffering. If we could choose the suffering and be sure of the reward in Heaven that would make is analogy hold. That's my summary.

[@uniquearahill6819]

Up

[@chrisflowrhymes89]

Thanks for sharing. These are often objections of the unbeliever who has spent time thinking through the God of the Bible. I figured I would share with how the Bible responds to your main points. The most obvious passage that covers most, if not all of your questions/comments is found in Romans 9:14-24. You likely will not like the answer you find there, but it is nonetheless the response of the Bible so figured I would share!

[@kamana6435]

@@chrisflowrhymes89 Thanks for the reply I will have a read and see what it says.

[@brianfarley926]

I think most of your post is flawed in the points your exist. For example God commanding the execution of the Cannanites. It is permissible because it is God passing judgement. In other words what he did was serve justice. Justice is about giving to someone what they deserve. Secondly I think you look at morality through the lens of the 21st century rather than in the infancy of civilization. Life was far harsher and those who got out of bounds with their tribe the consequences much more severe so the penalty one would accrue from justice being carried out back than we should expect to look vastly different than it would today. I became a believer from agnosticism not because I had some overwhelming experience in my heart that God exists. Reason is what brought me to God and what brought me to Christ was the Resurrection. There is nothing else comparable to it including what happened afterwards in my view. Perhaps you should really go and flesh out those points you listed and counter them with the best steel man arguments you can find on the pro Christian side and see if they hold up to scrutiny I’ve never found good reasons for the belief of atheism as being sufficient to explain why we are here, the universe, the mathematical probability we just exist by random chance Which the probability of that is what occurred makes even less sense. So I was never an atheist but I was agnostic for about 15 years.

[@SeekingVirtueA]

Well said.

[@Wolfenkuni]

I enjoyed this. Personally I felt it was an intellectually honest debate, where each one tried to understand and answer each others point (same for the Q&A). To often we see debates where the other side is ignored or misrepresented .

[@Jojo-oi3iz]

When someone says he believes in free will and self consciousness as a prove of GOD, there's basically explain beliefs as a "I WANT to believe it is true", not an objective/absolute truth. Because, no one actually knows what is an objective/absolute truth or whether it actually exist.

[@chrispyp2331]

Fantastic discussion. Top class. There's an obvious reason why Alex O'Conner is sitting there rather than Stephen Woodford.

[@Enaccul]

What don't you like about Stephen Woodford?

[@gehenna2148]

@@Enaccul arrogant dbag who purposefully misrepresents his opposition to make them look stupid

[@Enaccul]

@flock of doves Oh dang really? When does he do that? That's shitty if he does

[@Nick-Nasti]

Stephen could just as easily sit in that seat and do just as well.

[@chrispyp2331]

@@Enaccul There's zero modesty in his claims. He produces a lot of "debunking" videos, and presents his arguments as irrefutable. Alex O'Connor truly engagés with all the arguments, and leaves the door open for modification or correction. Stephen doesn't, and comes across extremely arrogant.

[@alekm6057]

Alex is the man!

[@adamruzenec-freerunning9838]

What i have problem with the most is the statement that humans have some special value and dignity over animals. Its selfserving belief that serves as survival mechanism helping people survive on the expense of animals. Perfect example of self bias. We should be atleast honest with ourselfs about our selfishness so we can improve.

[@Smilliztho]

It feels a bit like Alex is getting tired of this debate, atheism vs. christianity. And I understand him. I really appreciate him moving on and discovering other discussions like he have done with veganism!

[@chrisvalenzuela7911]

Lol, he's the one accepting the invitations. He can easily say no to them if he's tired of it.

[@HarrDarr]

@@chrisvalenzuela7911 he's probably tired because he had to spend half the video explaining the christian position to the christian

[@pnut3844able]

I mean you can only prove their arguments wrong so many times. Theism never changes, so you just prove the same things wrong over and over.

[@Miopop58]

If you are good only because you're afraid of afterlife please stay religious.

[@redmusic26]

I think that any Christian who says they act good purely out of fear of damnation is misguided; we ought to do it out of love, not fear. As a Christian, I can agree with you here; that is certainly a corrupt motive. Love defeats fear; fear is so much smaller than love. If fear brings someone to Christ however, Christ can teach them to love if they're willing.

[@badboyb123-n9k]

​@@redmusic26what if fear of hell brought Hitler to Christ shortly before he offd himself? Is he in heaven?

[@redmusic26]

@@badboyb123-n9k If he truly did repent, sure. God's mercy is infinite; he's willing to forgive anyone and everyone. But in order to be forgiven, you have to ask for forgiveness. Personally, I think this is doubtful in the case of Hitler; I think he thought he was justified in what he did over the course of his life. But of course, that's just my own take and has nothing to do with the truth of the Gospel; if Hitler repented, he is forgiven. Edited my comment to add this: Of course, only God knows everyone's heart. It's entirely speculation to try and guess at what Hitler was thinking and feeling in his final moments. My only point is that God's mercy is infinite. Even if fear isn't the fullest or most pure reason to come to Christ, it can still fuel repentance.

[@badboyb123-n9k]

@@redmusic26 he could forgive a genocide but can't forgive "blasphemy against the holy spirit"? Makes perfect sense. Especially the biblical guide to responsible slave driving. That one is truly a testimony of "God's love" ❤️🥰

[@redmusic26]

@@badboyb123-n9k I understand where you're coming from, I really do, but I have a couple of things in response. If you read the Scriptures desiring to make God the bad guy, it's easy to do. First, if you actually look into what "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" means as a sin, it means rejecting God's grace. If you reject God's grace, of course that grace won't be able to save you. I also find it interesting you picked the one example of an unforgivable sin to try and prove that God isn't actually merciful. Second, I'll grant you that the verses in the Bible about slavery can be tricky to tackle. In the times of Old Testament, their sort of slavery (the kind mentioned in the Scriptures) wasn't race based; they were more like prisoners of war. This isn't trying to justify it at all (I'm glad it's largely been abolished), merely I'm saying that it wasn't discrimination based solely on someone's appearance as slavery primarily was in the Americas. On top of this, if God provides a way to properly structure a human institution that isn't necessarily endorsement of its existence. God is concerned with spiritual redemption, not social redemption. God knows that slavery existed at the time and provided a means of ordering it properly. I would argue further that Christianity is actually what did away with slavery. Many cultures, such as the Islamic nations of today and China still have slavery, while it's been largely done away with in Western nations, those nations that stem from Christianity. You may argue that it was the Enlightenment and Rationalism that did away with slavery rather than Christianity, and honestly, I'd agree. I'd flip the argument all the way back around and say that the Enlightenment was impossible without Christianity, even if it WAS the Enlightenment that ended slavery.

[@stevegovea1]

After I suffered from some traumas in life , I thought about how our ancestors, the hunter-gatherers , who encountered the Neanderthals, might have dealt with suffering loss of loved ones. I truly believe what arose was a belief in an afterlife and god(s)... to help provide hope and reduce the chance of suicidal ideations.

[@pnut3844able]

Bingo

[@paulhayes5684]

I think it's the opposite and much bigger than we realize

[@shamicentertainment1262]

@@paulhayes5684care to elaborate ?

[@pashaisme5344]

This is the most honest debate I’ve heard

[@levi5073]

So the Christian response to animals suffering in agony is that God is allowed to do it. Wow...I really thought I was going to get a better attempt at an answer there. So, our options are: 1. Animals suffer in nature because there's just random natural suffering and flourishing (Atheism) 2. An all good, kind, loving God just decided it's cool to have billions of animals get tortured for billions of years (Christianity) Guess I'm staying an atheist today.

[@masteroftheforce1]

Why is animal suffering relevant? The debate here is about whether the Christian conception of God exists. I am unaware of anywhere where traditional christianity has held animals to have more value or rights. Certainly God never behaved as they did in the bible. It could both be the case that God is all good and that animals suffer greatly if animals do not have moral value.

[@levi5073]

@@masteroftheforce1 Correct, but the proposition that animals have no moral value is rejected by almost every modern human with a thinking brain, since we now know animals are sentient -- and therefore have a capacity to suffer. Your apparent solution to this is to weirdly concede that god doesn't care about the suffering of his own sentient beings. So all you've done is create an even more ridiculous dichotomy: 1. Animals suffer because the world is indifferent (Atheism). 2. God is a psychopath (Christianity). XD

[@peterp-a-n4743]

@@masteroftheforce1 Right, which would be an equally preposterous conception that doesn't square with the facts of reality where animals suffer in precisely the same way as we do and suffering is the universally recognized thing that makes morally wrong things bad. It's OP's option 2. You can keep that implausible BS.

[@sylvilaguscunicularius3155]

Nope. It was a huge disappointment. When they were speaking about “I don’t care” and intellectual laziness, I thought this described Trent well, lol.

[@cramax4871]

You are shocked and grossed out by the answer. But your answer is pretty much the same hahah

[@zacdredge3859]

1:43:33 No, it depends on *if* something is evil. I wouldn't accept payment from someone for them to do something I considered evil as it would make me complicit in the commission of that evil. In the case of arson there's a question of whether it's any different from demolition in this context especially when the payment is promised beforehand and the person's already thinking about the house they can build in its place.

[@fimanu]

There are people like me who grew up surrounded by agnosticism being accepted, so basically adults around me said "we don't know what happens when you die, we don't know what's going on, but we ask questions and consider these things fascinating". I thought this was super interesting, but I was ok with not knowing. As I grew up I encountered religion but I never felt convinced by what people were telling me and I couldn't understand why people felt they knew things we clearly don't. Now, if you want to think my lack of belief is active resistance that's fine, but I love asking questions and looking for answers, and so far I believe we, meaning all of us, still haven't got answers. I'm ok with that and look forward to hopefully getting more answers in my lifetime. If not, I'd love to freeze my mind and bring myself back every 10000 years or so, just to check where we're at, whether any Gods revealed themselves, whether we understand reality and the universe in a significantly different manner, or discovered advanced Alien civilizations or some other amazing phenomena! So no, recognising that at this moment in time I still have no answer to life mysteries is not being resistant.

[@Chapman1886]

​@@tafazzi-on-discordI've wondered why Christians say God died for our sins when he was resurrected within 3 days? He didn't in fact die then, so why make it out to be the ultimate sacrifice?

[@Chapman1886]

@@tafazzi-on-discord Isn't God dying for our sins a fundamental expression of his love for us? If God, an Almighty entity, doesn't in fact sacrifice Himself at all, doesn't that cheapen His love? Jesus is now eternal and back to being God, so he did it for what? A token gesture without stakes? Why do Christians put so much reverence to God for his "sacrifice", when it was no sacrifice for Him at all? I'm deeply curious if this is ever discussed among Christians?

[@Chapman1886]

@@tafazzi-on-discord We can't come to that conclusion because that would lessen Jesus from God to man, when he is both only as so far as God embodied an avatar, but was always God in human skin, so he didn't experience true death. Jesus was resurrected sometime within 3 days, so the the loss for God was nil, and can only be described as a gesture, not a true sacrifice with consequences. Yet, Jesus is heralded as making the ultimate sacrifice, even going so far as ridding us from sin and to quell God's wrath. I just find the framing strange, when Jesus is alive, eternal, present and ominpotent, according to Christian belief. I think it's something to ponder, because there's a lot of assumed guilt that believers should feel for our sins leading to God, through Jesus, having to die, despite not actually staying dead. If I was omnipotent and created an avatar to kill myself and tell my disciples that my sacrifice is because of their sins, knowing that nothing of me would be lost and it was all a play without real consequences, I'd think about why God would create such a scenario and guilt-trip his believers? I think I can understand why questioning such a fundamental part of the Christian belief won't be easily accepted, but calling it that he died for our sins is an overstatement as an eternal omnipotent being. Otherwise, we have to seperate Jesus from God, but that would create even more problems, and make the sacrifice even less understandable. It's an interesting question to consider, because of all the implications we can derive from it.

[@petretepner8027]

@@Chapman1886 "Jesus as an avatar", "God in human skin", is a heresy known as Docetism, definitively rejected by the Christian Church in 325. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docetism The reason why "questioning such a fundamental part of the Christian belief won't be easily accepted" is simply that such questions have already been thoroughly discussed a very long time ago within Christianity. The problems involved in separating Jesus from God (the Father), and the precise way in which this should be done, form a whole sub-branch of theology dealing with the "hypostatic union", and are the reason why the doctrine of the Trinity has arguably been fought over more than any other in Christianity, and is so complicated and hard to understand (or nonsensical, depending on your point of view). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypostatic_union

[@Muhluri]

Good debate. You can tell these 2 guys have respect for each other

[@Hal_T]

The problem with God is He gave me a brain. A brain that, according to my observation, seems to work "better" than all the non-human brains and many of the human brains. And then God said, "In SOME circumstances (for example, the question of My existence) you should trust your 'feelings' more than your brain. You should allow your 'feelings' to contradict and override what your brain is telling you. When should you trust one and when should you trust the other? The only guidance I'll give you on that is a book written by almost-cave-men who self-proclaimed their relationship with Me. Or you can guess for yourself which is which and try to convince others of your righteousness. But, whatever you do, don't trust this amazing brain which I gave to you. It will point you away from me."

[@cloudoftime]

As I said, on the roundtable debate from several days ago, if we lived in a world without suffering (deprivation), we wouldn't have a utility for understanding values of experience. Suffering (experience of separation) is necessary for desire. One could not desire a _better_ state if they were not in a state where they lacked something (deprivation causing desire). You could try to make an argument for excessive suffering instead, but that comes with its own problems. I am not a theist.

[@alexanderrivas2762]

Why should we have a "utility for understanding values of experience?"

[@cloudoftime]

@@alexanderrivas2762 It's not a matter of "should."

[@Nick-Nasti]

I disagree. One could struggle without horrific “suffering”. Could a child learn the same lessons without dying of cancer?

[@cloudoftime]

@@Nick-Nasti Notice how the thing you put in quotes was the word "suffering"? That's because I used the word suffering. Now see how you put the word horrific in front of the quoted word suffering? I never used the word horrific. That's an addition you are making which has nothing to do with what I said. So, you're creating a straw man and then trying to argue against your straw man. That has nothing to do with my point. I also explained suffering, so you can refer to that which doesn't imply "horrific."

[@Nick-Nasti]

@@cloudoftime “suffering” includes all forms of suffering and not just some mild example of a dentist visit to represent all suffering. It is plainly not a strawman.

[@BassBouncers]

1:30:53 this is a difficult question since forever considering the fact that anytime we do get a new discovery the church is the first one to get their grimy hands on it and nobody knows what they do to it in order so they don’t lose the plot so to speak if it hasn’t already happened already

[@missinterpretation4984]

I can’t reconcile severe suffering with a loving God. I also can’t reconcile the existence of the world and people without design. Plus I know that I process everything through my own limitations and biases so I don’t even know if the things that make sense to me are actually true. So I’m just out here doing my best. 🤷‍♀️❤

[@nathanmckenzie904]

Nature is the designer.

[@missinterpretation4984]

@@nathanmckenzie904 Nature is creation not the creator though. I can’t process that everything designed itself which is what that would mean.

[@nathanmckenzie904]

@missinterpretation4984 take a biology class or there are TONs of videos on KZbin that explain it at a layman level

[@ElectricLimeade]

There are plenty of possibilities for there to be a creator that is not capital G God. The most relevant, of course, are those of indifference and limited influence. A creator may not care how we feel, or may even be explicitly avoiding interfering with the world for the sake of some other goal. I would imagine such a case to be somewhat like an ant farm or an experiment, where the purpose is to observe. A creator may also not be able to influence creation after the process has begun, or is otherwise limited in time, power, or both. I would liken such a scenario to a truly gigantic game of Sims - you may care about all of these creatures, but the scale is so enormous that you can't possibly give all of them individual attention even some of the time, much less most or all. And consider, perhaps, that we are not the only planet with beings on it. Even a creator that thinks thousands or millions of times faster than us would still eventually be unable to keep up as populations grew.

[@BornOnThursday]

In regard to the people that "don't care", I wonder if they'd care if they were in the path of bad ethics, or would they suddenly ask/beg for "morals" and "humanity", or if someone they care for/wanted to protect were in the path of bad ethics, etc.

[@Fernando-ek8jp]

I'm always confused by the "What do you expect a universe with/without god to look like?" line of questioning. Idk, I only have the one universe to look at, and even then in an absurdly limited capacity I can't compare this universe to a universe with a known creator, or to another with a known lack of creator. I have absolutely no idea how either of those should play out.

[@DanielCasasamperaGonzález]

Oju Ramon Llull representant la terra! Quina grata sorpresa xdd

[@STAR0SS]

People praise Trent for his intellectual honesty but he dodged (politely I'll give you that) almost all of Alex hard questions. What's his answer to the deer under a tree problem ? I have no idea.

[@lawrence1318]

Without suffering faith is void, and without faith it is impossible to please God. So there's your answer.

[@MB-nx9tq]

@@lawrence1318those are non séquitors.

[@evad687]

@@lawrence1318 kzbin.info/www/bejne/bKnUdJ6ua7yEeKcsi=mAF52CNHkNgnz0yU&t=18m24s

[@sageoverheaven]

​@@MB-nx9tqAtheist here (or, nonresistant nonbeliever)-I wouldn't call that a non-sequitur. To have faith, you need that faith tested. Suffering is presented by the individual you're replying to as the test for faith, meaning without a reference point (the spectrum of suffering-happiness), you have no touchstone for faith. It's the same way having no power and being peaceful does not make you good, just harmless. One way to visualise a good man is to visualise a powerful man who exercises reason of his own volition to inhibit his use of his power.

[@lawrence_of_osaka]

Complete dodger

[@cameronroot]

You put Alex and Forrest Valkai together.. you can say goodbye to a lot of religious people real quick if they should come across their work.

[@danielosetromera2090]

Trent Horn is really overrated by a lot of people, in my view. Put Edward Feser in that, and see Alex running scared.

[@cameronroot]

@@danielosetromera2090 I’ll have to check out Fraser and get back to you but I doubt he’d be running scared… he has conversations and debates as honestly as possible. That’s the hope is that everyone is a critical and honest interlocutor as much as possible.

[@danielosetromera2090]

@@cameronroot Alex can be the most well spoken and honest person in the world, but if his arguments don't fly (as they don't, in my opinion), then it's not of much use.

[@cameronroot]

@@danielosetromera2090 that’s a true statement for any particular person no doubt there!

[@Nick-Nasti]

There’s a great lineup of folks that I like: Forrest, Erica, Matt, Alex, Stephen, Aron, Paulogia, Viced Rhino I feel there a missing seat at the table for cosmology.

[@bcarollo1]

The problem of suffering in life isn’t such a problem when you think about it in terms of existence and non-existence. In other words, I start from the premise that I exist. From there, I begin to think about the opposite of that, non-existence. Then, I begin to feel an overwhelming sense of gratitude for the fact that I exist. I then come come to the conclusion that no amount of suffering that I could experience in my existing that would make me choose, if I had the chance, to never have existed in the first place.

[@atomicvinylreviews3420]

With the point around the 1:20:00 mark about an atheist who put effort into learning and looking for answers compared to a theist who was raised into that belief system without giving it much thought. Yes, there is the possibility that even with the effort put in to educate yourself you'll end up believing stupid/wrong things, however on average doing so dramatically increases the likelihood of your views cohering with reality compared to those who don't give it any thought. It is unfair! Following Christian logic, God's the one who gave the atheists the ability to use logic and reason to examine the world around them, they put in the effort to educate themselves and as a result they're punished...

[@thoughtful1233]

I very much dislike how discussions around justice in the book of Job center entirely on Job. What about all of the people who were killed? Christians have a tendency of making loved one's deaths and other people's tragedies about God's plan for them. When people die, it doesn’t mean they are like NPCs who function to serve your story arc. And if Job got 100x what he had previously that still says nothing at all about the brutal deaths that came too soon for so many in the story.

[@thoughtful1233]

I'm at 1:39:22 so maybe they'll bring it up.

[@strategic1710]

That’s called main character syndrome. The idea of being a torturous mass murderer and having a death bed confession that sends you to heaven appeals to this idea because it solves the problem for you while ignoring the massive injustice done to all your previous victims. It reduces their value to their place in your life story.

[@the-outsider8458]

I've had the same complaint. Christians tend to mention that he got a new wife and children. What about his first wife and kids? From both Job's protective and his family's. Having a child of yours die isn't made "all better" just because you had two other children. The refusal to notice it really highlights their biases.

[@blackbeauty5817]

I dont fully understand the argument about intrinsic human value and this integrity for human life. I think from a naturalist point of view, it completely makes sense that humans value the lives of other humans over the lives of any other species. Other social animals care more about their own species than others. This is definitely advantageous for a species to survive, so why wouldn't it evolve that way? (I am not a philosopher i might have interpreted the argument wrong)

[@everykneeshallbowzao]

Nothing wrong with your confusion. That part of the video was strange especially on Alex’s side. He was over complicating a simple thing that humans care of humans first and then animals. This is how it always is. And humans are intrinsically more valuable than animals in our world just based on how we treat them.

[@glenjennett]

I feel sorry for the third guy in the middle who is there the whole time, but is left out of the conversation. That tree might have its own opinion on the matter, but is never even acknowledged.

[@bobobob5737]

genuinely giggled at this comment

[@sylvilaguscunicularius3155]

There was a pause between the speakers at one time. I swear that the tree shook a bit in excitement to finally get a word in, but the speakers continued speak before the tree could say anything. I know Trent doesn’t care, but I am shocked Alex didn’t notice.

[@glenjennett]

@@sylvilaguscunicularius3155 You're right, Alex should have noticed. Or maybe he did, but didn't want to let the tree speak because it would probably never stop if it started. It would "leaf" the other two out of the conversation for revenge for being ignored.

[@steve_jabz]

One point about the deer suffering being compensated by going to heaven: A pet cat or some other lucky wild animal that gets to have a good life without suffering goes to heaven by default anyway, so it seems unfair, unbalanced and not in any way meaningful to inflict the suffering on the deer. They're not getting this suffering because they go to heaven, they're going to heaven regardless, and then some of them experience very real agonising suffering in their mortal life with no knowledge that they're going to get a "compensation" package after

[@iconoclastvii]

Hahahhaa I just got to the part where buddy thought he dunked. 😂

[@joshuanewsted2560]

Where’s that at?

[@iconoclastvii]

Rewatching... totally forget.​@@joshuanewsted2560