IFR Lost Communications Example Scenario - AeroGuard Flight Training Center

[@do3dola365]

Was really helpful thank you

[@flyaeroguard]

Hello, thanks for your comment! We are so glad you found this video helpful.

[@atitrijal2303]

Just to add a very important point here, as you are flying with lost communication, it is very smart and pragmatic to keep transmitting blind about you position and intention because the situation might be that your aircraft radio transmission is still working and atc might still be able to hear you.

[@delianava2155]

SUCH A GOOD VIDEO, finally made me understand this far easily

[@Sanjay_Patel]

at 10:45 timestamp you said you've just flown to KNYL and back to IAF so there won't be any time left. My question is in Loss Comm situation are you supposed to fly over the airport and then back to IAF? or can you not just go straight to IAF and execute the procedure?

[@flyaeroguard]

Hello, thanks for your comment! While it may seem out of place to fly over the destination airport only to turn back to an IAF to begin the approach, that is how the regulation (91.185(c)(3)(ii)) is written and interpreted by the FAA.

[@peterabbe76]

Good content. The scenario based example is very helpful! Thanks for taking the time to post!

[@flyaeroguard]

We're glad to help!

[@audreyhoffman355]

really good explanation. helped me understand some areas that were a bit confusing to me. thank you!

[@flyaeroguard]

We're glad you found it helpful, Audrey! Thanks for the comment.

[@solomonhassankuta1654]

Beautiful explanation now I appreciate a thing or two

[@flyaeroguard]

Hello, we are so glad you liked this video! Our goal is to provide helpful content that is informative and supports your success. If you ever run into any questions, feel free to reach out. Thank you!

[@roymills415]

Awesome explanation thanks! How about? Reach into your flight bag and grab your backup radio? Also what if comms back up mid flight? I imagine you contact approach and beg forgiveness? Or expect intermittency on radios? Thank you!

[@addicted1021]

Thank you!! Very clear explanation and very good example

[@dactel2]

Excellent explanation of what the reg says about the NORDO procedure. One thing I might point out is that, when the destination airport is the clearance limit, is it really a good idea to proceed all the way to the airport and fly back to the IAF? Presumably, there might be an aircraft already there shooting an approach to that airport and your aircraft could be violating the airspace “reserved” for him. One might have to then consider exercising his/her PIC authority in the interest of safety by holding at the IAF until it would be safe to proceed with the IAP (as close to the ETA as possible)…. Just my two cents..

[@CptShaquilleOatmeal]

Amazing video thank you

[@richardmedina9046]

Awesome explanation !!

[@DaMojoIsDead]

Thanks for the video. Good for refreshing material that I just learned in my ground class!

[@syntactyx]

Absolutely fantastic instruction, thanks so much for making this video! Really helped demystify lost comms for me, particularly what to do in a situation where you're off route due to radar vectors and lose your radios. Here is one final question -- In the example in the video ATC gives you a RV of 230 to BXK, and as explained in the video you would fly on heading 230 to BXK (or direct BXK from the point of radio failure, whichever gets you to BXK) and then the rest of the assigned route once you reach BXK/V16. What would you do if you had the same clearance as the video, but instead of the 230 to BXK vector ATC instead assigns you a vector for traffic/spacing to the effect of "N55VN, fly heading 010 for spacing, expect further clearance in 5 minutes" and lets say the heading 010 is leading you quite far away from your cleared route/clearance limit. You lose your radios right after you begin flying heading 010. Would you, in this case, do the following -- after confirming lost comms and squawking 7600, immediately proceed direct to the closest portion of the assigned route (PXR or somewhere along V16 if we lost comms at the same place as the video example)? Since the vector was for spacing and didn't contain any clearance to a fix or anything in the route (and in fact took you away from your route), you would go back to ASSIGNED in the A.R.E.A. acronym and figure out which part of your assigned route is closest, correct? So I'd turn off heading 010 and go direct, lets say, PXR, and then just fly the cleared route. Also would you simply ignore the 5 minute EFC time and just go direct to your assigned route immediately once the lost comms are confirmed, 7600 is in the box, and you figure out where to fly to? Thanks so much for the awesome video and for your time.

[@flyaeroguard]

Great question! There is a lot going on in this scenario. To start it is unlikely that ATC would turn you that far off course for traffic. Generally they assign you 20-30 degrees off for traffic. However, if they were to turn you to that heading there are 2 thoughts on this. One is fly that heading for the 5 minutes per the EFC time then turn to the assigned course. Second is you can assert your 91.3 PIC authority in this emergency situation and proceed to the assigned route. Once you squawk 7600 ATC is going to clear the area for you so that previous vector for traffic will not be an issue. Hope that helps!

[@syntactyx]

@@flyaeroguard Thank you so much for the prompt reply!! Yes, that is very helpful information and answers my question. Thanks so much again for all you guys are doing.

[@onestepza]

Thank you teaching this. It help me a lot.

[@flyaeroguard]

We're glad to help!

[@seattleraf]

Thanks!

[@edgarxavier493]

good explanation. but what about altitude when you arrive at the IAF. are you still maintaining 8000ft? so then at EFC do we just start descending in the hold to commence the approach?

[@bewbs249]

yes

[@williamk5998]

Thank you. Very well done video and helps me as I fork towards my IFR. G’day.

[@flyaeroguard]

Happy to hear it - thanks for commenting!

[@tingyangchang7822]

This video is awesome.

[@flyaeroguard]

Thank you!

[@TheVeteran44]

Very good video. It is explained clearly. Thanks !

[@flyaeroguard]

We're glad this helped you!

[@robasen1]

Thanks! Very helpful

[@flyaeroguard]

Thanks, Rob! We're glad you found it useful.

[@anthonyb4913]

Oh, great video. Thanks for the instructions. When you say fly to the airport, and then the initial approach fix, are you saying fly over the airport and then to the initial approach fix?

[@nathanpush2262]

Thank you very good explanation

[@flyaeroguard]

We're glad you liked it, thanks Nathan!

[@DC.]

Great video. Thank you!

[@flyaeroguard]

You're welcome, we're glad you liked it!

[@Pilotvasquez]

Thank you 🙏

[@AZACadman]

So say you're on the Mesa1 out of falcon field (KFFZ) and you lose comms over Chandler (KCHD). Your clearance has you flying to iftur, V16 to pxr, then V105 to TFD. Would you continue as filed as you haven't received vectors to the V105 or would you go direct TFD?

[@BruceAirFlying]

Don't forget to review AIM 6−4−1: Two-way Radio Communications Failure, which includes additional guidance beyond the basic text of the regulations.

[@philipmcbride-pilotengineer]

Definitely makes me want to want to always have my clearance limit be the IAF of the airport. If possible anyway.

[@hunterfagan6272]

What if the iaf doesn’t have a publish hold?

[@flyaeroguard]

Great question, this is something that comes up a lot in AeroGuard’s ground schools and IR workshops. According to the Aeronautical Information Manual (AIM) Paragraph 5-3-8(c), if a pilot reaches a fix to hold and has not been assigned holding instructions nor is there a published hold at the fix, the pilot should “enter a standard pattern on the course on which the aircraft approaches the fix”. This would apply to a lost communications scenario as well.

[@HectorWPadilla]

Wow!!

[@jmeds_jammin]

The acronym is AVE. of FAME.

[@badgerfishinski6857]

This is what made me quit being a IFR pilot. Still can never understand this protocol. Never had a CFII that could explain it to my understanding, thus i realized i am not cut out for IFR flying.....even tho i have an IFR rating. Go figure huh! Have fun guys and all the best to those who move beyond this. Fly safe. Im enjoying another career now while still flying VFR recreationally.

[@badgerfishinski6857]

Also...on several occassions i presented the same scenario to multiple CFIIs, and they all had different responses. That scares me cuz they all were 100% convinced they were correct. Not my cup of tea when theres mountains around where i fly.... All the best to you all who can grasp this correctly. Im out...Good luck...fly safe.

[@michaeld4134]

@@badgerfishinski6857 what do you do now

[@dylanhammonds5270]

let’s say clearance limit is the airport we fly to airport if we have an efc time we need to wait till that time then we can go to IAF and hold till ETA

[@joshuaeagan6012]

well explained. tattoo on the right arm?

[@emreyilmaz2038]

For altitude Minimum altitude for IFR route Expected Assigned Let's say we are on victor airway and MEA is 7000, MOCA is 6000. Expected is 5000 and assigned is 4000. Do I have to fly MEA which is in this case 7000?

[@flyaeroguard]

You are correct! You would need to fly at the highest of the following: Minimum IFR Altitude (MEA, MOCA, MCA, OROCA) Expected altitude (when ATC tells you to expect a certain altitude clearance in the future “…expect 5000’ in 15 minutes”) Assigned altitude (an altitude clearance from ATC “climb maintain 5000’”) So in the example you provided, flying at the MEA of 7000’ seems to be the highest for that route segment. Some could make the argument that if within 22NM of the VOR (using VOR for primary navigation) the MOCA could be considered the minimum IFR altitude, but it is unrealistic that ATC would anticipate that. If the airplane could fly at the MEA that would be the normal assumption that would be made. So long story short, yes, you should fly at 7000’ for that segment of the flight.