Ignition Timing...How Much And Why

[@rloewen11]

As a high school teacher, I'm always amazed at how you make fairly complex subjects understandable (even to me). Good on you Tony!

[@stanpotter7764]

If everybody in the country knew as much about their profession as UT does, our roads would be pot hole free, bread would never go stale, and cancer would be cured. This guy is amazing.

[@thehappytexan]

This explains the 400 sbc I had in high school always liked more timing than all the 350’s. At the track, she loved 100 octane and 42 degrees of timing. The 350’s pinged on 42 degrees even with 100 octane. On the street it was 36 for a 350, and 38 for my 400. I loved that engine. Put it to the wood and let it eat!

[@pauldenick1830]

Love that story about Big Daddy DG! Very practical info about tuning that nobody talks about. Keep em coming UT and UK.

[@busterworley8418]

I recently bought a 69 chevelle. Tony has helped me remember all I forgot and taught me things I didn’t know. Thanks Tony.

[@cactuscanuck6802]

Great info Uncle! As a licensed gas fitter, the relationship between flame front distance traveled, flame velocity and differences in fuel combustion and engine aspiration makes perfect sense!

[@HammerHeadGarage]

Rumour was at 50 degrees the slingshot was cackling so hard the crew didn't want to go near it. lmao. LEGEND.

[@SketchysGarage]

Don is one of the most passionate people about his craft I ever had the privilege of taking too.

[@lewhanna6112]

I have never heard anyone explain that so well. My 71 10:1 440 liked 46 degrees of total timing. I ran 11.70 on 28 inch slicks, 13.10 on street tires.

[@needmetal3221]

That's strong

[@lewhanna6112]

Need metal, it was so much fun. 71 charger I worked my butt off to own. Life got in the way of keeping it. I miss that car. Right after I sold it, classic Mopars went way up in price.

[@needmetal3221]

@@lewhanna6112 that's happened to many of us.

[@bertamusprime618]

Another out standing video and perfect timing (Pun intended). I have been messing with the timing on my car and this video helped to clear some items and questions up. Keep up the great work!

[@mikiejr111]

Brought my 66'IMPALA SS ZZ502/600HP..5SPD,3:42 to numerous mechanics that TOLD me they were the best in the business,car was always tuned like a sleeping baby,I just did a tune and advanced timing and my God did this car WAKE up,,Holy Moly,my base timing is 22°,took a while to figure out,thought 22 was to much,but the engine runs best at this setting,idles at 900,nice grunt,responds perfectly on the road,lots of fun

[@unicornsteaks6769]

WOW That bird was really happy for most of this video.

[@fostercathead]

Dear Lord! I was about to ask whether or not it was in the same room with him! Love the video, though.

[@easygoing2479]

I was wondering if instead Uncle Kathy had hit Uncle Tony over the head just before the video.

[@mattbauckman9907]

This is an explanation that I’ve never heard before but makes total sense. Thanks Tony.

[@55hemidodge]

Your explanation of things like this is absolutely incredible! You just told me why the 225 slant six in my 62 Lancer runs at its best at about 25 degrees Advance on the timing. I always knew she ran better that way but I never fully understood why until you just explained it in detail. Thank you Uncle Tony!

[@amirouw]

I never feel regret watching your videos and allways teaches me something new. Thanx tony

[@larryr8492]

Thanks, spent 25 years in CDPJ Dealerships and still picking up useful tips. My project, 1995 Dakota, 5.9 Magnum swap in (formerly 3.9 I couldn’t break) with Megasquirt and LS coils. Feel the pain of no Mopar parts, the next gen Dakota supported well but not so much mine. MAKING EVERYTHING.

[@Talal_alshammri.]

He made this video just to escape from body work for (6:02) minutes. Good one Uncle Tony 😂😂😂

[@TEN-TIMES-HARDER]

yeah but youtube got weird, now they stop showing your popular videos if you dont pump out consistant videos, even if nobody likes them, they start sharing your old videos again lmao, i find myself deleting a lot of videos after, just trying to hang in there lmao if a 9$ an hour kid with a scanner is stealing our jobs, guess its time to teach the secrets lmao

[@transfixleo]

On the chance someone is still thinking, OK but WHY does a larger bore require more timing, let me offer an illustration that may help. Visualize the air/fuel mixture as a bunch of dominoes. It takes X amount of time, measured in degrees of rotation, for them to all fall. Now, imagine a larger bore. It will take that many more dominoes and therefore, more time for them to fall.

[@zmanphx]

Also where the plug is located center vs side.

[@littlered6780]

I like the explanation "it was entirely based on the real estate the flame front had to cover... Dominoes are good but flame front/real estate is magnifico.. :))

[@samhicks97]

That analogy is very good, was able to visualize the Air/Fuel being burned.

[@01trsmar]

Great info...Awesome explanation!!! I used to drive around adjusting the timing and where the car had more seat of the pants feel,that's where it stayed! This was when I was a teen but still works today!! I like doing bodywork!! The rustier and more bashed the better!!! Seriously,I restored hundreds of Mopar's..bodywork relaxes me!! Especially when I have to hammer on it!!

[@robertschreiber8099]

I'd be there, on the other side of the car!

[@greggb1416]

“Theory” video, I like that term. Your 5-6min., short concise too the point explanation(s) are great...! Thank you sir.

[@oantech4252]

Great video.. Makes a lot of sense. Rule of Thumb..... Advance the timing until it pings under load and back it off from that spot for optimum... 454 Chevy dials in at around 37 degrees. 👌

[@stanglincoln1659]

I remember back in the day you were the first one tell people where to set their timing on a 5.0 Mustang

[@The_R-n-I_Guy]

You never cease to amaze me with your knowledge. I learn something from just about every video. Thanks again

[@wheels-n-tires1846]

Best explanation ever... Was trying to explain timing relationships to the kids a while back, but made it 800 times more complicated than it needed to be lol... Now Ill just tell em "watch Uncle Tony"....👍😂

[@drrrrockzo]

That is a really interesting take on timing...I've never thought about it that way. Thanks for another informative video!

[@ThunderHead289]

Key phrase “all else being equal” between 3 engines of 3 different bore sizes. 👍 Good luck with the body work. can’t blame you - hate it also! And it shows

[@jaredfarney675]

😲🤩🤘🏻😎

[@stevenbongiorno9277]

Thanks! I’ve been working on Chevy 350s, and I just put a bunch of money in my personal one. I talked to a buddy who races , asking about how much timing I should run. I’m running 32, but he says I can run 34. I know it ain’t much, but I’m running on a budget and can’t afford to blow her up. I’ve finally got a great set of ported heart shaped chamber heads on her. I’m guessing I’m running about 9.7 compression with I would consider great flow from intake to exhaust. Everything is port matched, and trust me , they’re is no restriction on either part. I run a modified 3310. I mean the throttle shafts are thinned down, the main body has been polished. I’ve jetted up to compensate. I’ve geared the car from a 3:08 to a 3:75. I’ve got a set of racing headers on her, to a free flowing exhaust. I know it’ll make more power, but what kinda initial timing should I look at?

[@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259]

IMO, you'l likely feel a power loss once you get past optimum. From "optimum", I'd turn it back a hair (that's the way I roll). Be careful though, might not have much warning as when things heat up, clearances become tighter, pistons heat up, oil film breaks down and aluminum melts. The question at some point becomes "Is the risk of roasting something worth going for more".

[@patrickradcliffe3837]

This was one of those Voodoo things about engines that I just took at face value with no explanation from the guys I learned to turn wrenches from. I just learned something new today.

[@bladeslicemaster5390]

Thank you for that explanation. I am trying to adjust the mallory unilite timing curve for my AMC 401 with a 4.165" bore. I've never done it before and am starting from scratch. This video helps a lot!

[@kevkilian]

Such a simple concept that I didn't understand until now. I feel like an idiot, but now I understand. Thanks UT

[@jimbolove5669]

dude, your audio quality is so good, I thought there was a bird in my living room, I hit pause and chirps stoped, hit play and heard rest of the chirps, haha that was a freaking awesome surprise to me it was.

[@tropicalstormstephen2891]

Every video makes me smile on your channel. I have been in love with classic cars since I was a lil lad and my pop and I don't really see eye to eye on interests... I love the man but I have only few influences in my life that actually appreciate the beauty that comes with great American auto engineering! I can only imagine what it must've been like back in the late 60s and early 70s driving by the dealerships.... I wouldave given anything to go back to that era to learn and understand why they did it this wounderful way... The only way I can do meaningful research is through experiencing my own mechanical obsticals with my father's old cj5, and with helpful content like yours. I look forward to seeing what you have to share with us next and I admire your respect, understanding and passion for this culture. Thankyou! 🤘

[@420gzuz]

This is the video that I needed to watch and YOU are the man who needed to teach me my lesson today in spark timing. Makes perfect sense but I never thought of it this way before. Awesome.

[@peterplouf2836]

"Real Estate" by piston diameter, is a squared function. What this means is that a small change in piston diameter makes a much bigger difference in piston real estate size. This was a very useful video. FYI. this video combined with another one where you explain how you want your fuel explosion to finish pushing the piston before BDC, goes a long way to understanding how an efficient engine works.

[@Freedomquest08]

If you don't like bodywork now, just wait until they ring up your paint at the cash register. The nothing special paint on my last paint job was around $1,100. From that point on, I've learned to love patina.

[@snoopy5736]

Junk

[@Freedomquest08]

@@snoopy5736 To each their own. Live the life you can afford.

[@darrengibson644]

Great tip...had never heard of that relationship! How does stroke/dwell time affect it?

[@williamstamper442]

Lets say stroke remains the same. That would be the distance the piston moves up and down in the cylinder. A longer connecting rod has more angularity in regards to the crankpin (connecting rod journal or "throw") than a shorter connecting rod which has less angularity. The longer rod will "hold" the piston at top dead center "longer" as measured in crankshaft degrees than a shorter connecting rod with the same stroke crankshaft. Piston speed (velocity) as it travels up and down the bore, say in middle of travel either way up or down, also based on rod length. They call it rod ratio, which is connecting rod length center to center divided by stroke. This number is often between 1.5 and 1.7 on most of the V8 engines Tony messes with on this channel as a good example. The higher (larger number) the rod ratio, the longer the piston is gonna remain at top dead center (dwell there) before getting yanked or pushed onto the downstroke. Timing is affected GREATLY on dwell time. Also that thing that Tony said which i love is "real estate" in other words bore diameter...bigger the bore the more "real estate". Stroke being the same, the longer connecting rod is gonna hang out longer at top dead center before it starts down....lets say for this description, on the power stroke. Gasoline generally burns at a given rate which varies on alot of factors but lets keep it simple that single rate for any tank of fuel adequate for your engine... Timing is telling when to light the spark plug. The flame front is gonna burn and spread out or "propegate" at the same rate no matter how fast the engine is spinning. Higher rpms require timing lead also called advance. How long the piston stays at top dead center Directly affects WHEN to start that spark and let er burn. I think Tony could have said it way better but i did answer your question. Reason i posted this long comment was to get my head working again after this stupid lockdown. Im in michigan and we were hit pretty hard....by a really stupid governor.

[@kramnull8962]

@@williamstamper442 Hope you are safe from the muddy waters up there...

[@francfurian8215]

William Stamper I hope things turn around for you guys soon. Cheers😊

[@Welcometofacsistube]

William Stamper very well explained

[@rcnelson]

@@williamstamper442 I pity all those under Witless Whitmer's jackboots.

[@davenorman8251]

More wise words from Uncle Tony...It is all about flame propagation within the cylinder...bore size,fuel type even piston crown and spark plug location are considerations and then cylinder volume at the time of fire affects the air/fuel mix etc...fun isn't it.

[@ruszko726]

I have an hei on my sbf, I took out the springs on the weight so I get full advance, MAN TONY YOU WERE RIGHT, VERY VERY SNAPPY LOW END, it's running a little lean, about mid 13's Afr when I stomp on it at about 4-6k, but I just gotta get some smaer metering rods, and bigger jegs. Thank you Uncle Tony

[@RICHARDSMITH-h6n]

The Birds are fabulous, you are full of great information also. Thanks Tony

[@todddennehy804]

Trying to teach my guys when to use a vac gauge. This will clarify for them. Thanks for explaining ported vs manifold.

[@matthewcromwell1969]

I remember watching Don tell that story in am interview. Great story thank you for explaining it like you did.

[@moderateextremist7344]

You explain things very well UT.

[@TorontoModifiedKarKlub]

That was excellent. Much to learn. I never learned this much in school.

[@SilentGamer-jt8dl]

I just want to say thank you for all videos, you do a great job at explaining things and i have learnt a lot just by watching

[@db7069]

Very interesting, I’ve always looked it as 3 legged stool. chamber, compression and cam. Did consider the fourth leg. This is as helpful as you article from the mid 80s of how to lap your valves while sitting on the toilet. I’ve been a fan a long time. 😀

[@The_Future_isnt_so_Bright]

Awesome video as always. I noticed on KZbin that there is no 'good' videos explaining Oversquare, Undersquare, and Square bore to stroke ratios and how this can effect power output, and why engine designers went with the specs they chose. Recall in one of the slant six videos you briefly talking about this. Its a topic that hasn't been covered in english here on KZbin.

[@stevemiller5355]

Thank you Uncle Tony for the endless knowledge and videos. You help keep me sane during these difficult times 🙏 bless you sir

[@eddiehuff7366]

Thanx again Tony. That makes sense to me when you say things like flame front.

[@colemanadamson5943]

Great explanation of advance timing. Really well done.

[@jamest.5001]

Chamber shape, compression ratio, bore, stroke! And engine speed/ operating range! AND FUEL! Temperature maybe?

[@immikeurnot]

Yep, temperature, too. BTDT. Car would ping if I sat and idled it too long, but after babying it for a minute, the fresh air would cool the air filter and housing off enough that I could get into it. In retrospect, I should have probably just backed it off a degree, but I wanted every last horse.

[@McBurnside6380]

Things I learned from UTG:. Every old car has rust. It's just a matter of how much that matters. Do your research or you will get rolled by a car flipper. Gasoline isn't as dangerous as we thought, but must still be respected And yes, people still smoke cigarettes.

[@dh2360]

I use to dread auto body work also but eventually it became the one thing I'm best at on classic cars. That is the great thing about the old car hobby, so many different lines of work go into one car that if you at least focus on one thing and master it then it becomes enjoyable. Hopefully, it's eventually not a lost art as most my friends focus on video games and not anything else.

[@MartinPerez-ew9pk]

Great information, I haven't heard or watched a video like this on KZbin.

[@frankjames5515]

Excellent straight-forward presentation.

[@LunarOutlawsGarage]

I really enjoy bodywork it’s right there within building engines 🤙

[@johnwilburn]

They are two entirely different worlds.

[@UnityMotorSportsGarage]

Good stuff! Garlits had his money cut on a match race. And that is what pushed him to try and blow it up!

[@billmcbillface7467]

And this is why I keep coming back to UTG. I almost always find the simplest answer to whatever question is in my head. As far as bodywork goes? The best home gamer body/paint guys always hate it.

[@brucebreedlove7743]

Hey Uncle Tony!! I too really get bummed at the prospect of doing the bodywork....I FEEL YA BRUTHA !! I find great joy in engine building. My specialty is Chevy Small Block Stokers. It's not a stretch to get 455 hp. and 425 torque these days out of a N.A. 383. But yeah....the body work....THE BODYWORK!! .....URGH!!!... 😆

[@Averagegunenthusiast]

I just got a 72 GMC painted and I did a lot of the body work, I think you like it as much as I do.

[@OwensGarage]

I run enough timing on my 8.5:1 mild cam 318 so it pings under heavy load at high rpm with 87 pump gas. That way when I’m towing all I have to do is put 89 or 91 in it and it makes tons of power and doesn’t ping, but just driving it around town I can get away with 87 no problem. I’m not sure that that’s how it’s supposed to be done but so far it’s been working for me.

[@jameslewis1175]

New to the channel man but so far love the common sense ur putting out there man. Thanks

[@chuckfischer7202]

Can see the relationship. Better understanding now. Thanks.

[@darykoughton5473]

Great video very informative!

[@imabeLiever247]

Thanks!

[@UncleTonysGarage]

Thank You!

[@remington351]

Great explanation. I'd really like an Uncle Tony vid walking us through the procedure to set initial and total advance timing demonstrated on project daily driver. The other uthube videos are using new age programmable timing lights and iphone apps. I'm sure UT can show us how it's done with a 30 year old timing bulb and a dwell meter. Reply to this post with a thumbs up and maybe UT will see the interest from the viewers and make a vid for us.

[@rolandtamaccio3285]

,,, the story is true and staggering . I knew it 45 years ago, but just in the last two years found out how much more power the '26 made when Don got it right . There's more to the distance / area equation. The plug in the '26 is much further ( deeper in the chamber ) above the piston, assuming ( lol ), that they ran the pistons the same distance "out " .

[@thespiritof76..]

That makes sense to me.. when I used to run 327s and 350s both ran close to 32^ timing both 4” bores... The older small bore 283s and 307s ran less timing but always under 30^

[@scottgleason4511]

We meaning my dad as I grew up never owned a trimming light so we just adjusted timing with a vacuum gage when the needle sat very steady lock down the distributor and call it done they ran strong but where just daily drivers well new cars back then

[@wallygator5274]

Uncle Tony have a question for you. A friend of mine an old-time mechanic was talking one day about timing on a vehicle and I was trying to tell him how much I hated a timing light. He explained to me that if the car was warmed up to operating temperature to have someone sit inside the car put the car in drive with your foot on the brake and power brake the car with someone at the distributor turning it. When the car feels like it's pulling the hardest that's where the engines happy with the timing. I've been doing that trick for 15 years and it's never let me down. I was wondering if you had ever heard of anybody doing. Thanks

[@markwise9868]

Usually it is advance the timing and take the car for a drive until it "pings" or detonates and retard the distributor slightly. Heat and fuel octane all play into this.

[@edwardfoehring8827]

Awsome Tony, always wondered why on timing and nitro . Bore size thank you so much not many people could answere that.

[@shempuhorn8261]

Wow. Very useful info. Will help with timing starting points

[@richardcranium5839]

one thing you omitted was rpm. the higher the rpm the less time the flame front has to rebound and cause detonation. we're talking miliseconds but when factors are known it can be calculated. id love to hear your thoughts on this.

[@campbellpaul]

Thanks, Tony, for a long time I thought it was little men from the old Autolite commercials that did it.

[@MoparJunky]

Thanks Tony. Have fun with the body work.

[@samuelortiz105]

I hope we get to see some bodywork videos from you Uncle Tony.

[@bradyhicks1381]

Thanks UT and UK another great story and lesson. Crank the mag Big Daddy sent it. Take it or break it ✌

[@novaguy8419]

Thanks for the tip tony. I wish I could come out there and make your life easier and give you a hand on that body work. But I know you will get it.

[@justinwright6611]

I just learnt a heap and extremely well explained.

[@Daniel-Weaver]

Love the use of heap. As in ,you boys are in a heap o trouble now. And it's splained, not ex splained.👍Lucy I'm home!

[@jamestankersley6901]

Thanks Uncle Tony, you are appreciated!

[@goldenaxl]

Amazing, I did not know that Alpha! Makes perfect sense now, why my 535 with a 4.35" bore LOVED around 42 degrees

[@immikeurnot]

I've run the ragged edge of "optimal" where ambient temperature could push the engine over into detonation. Sitting too long at a stop light, I'd have to baby the car for a little bit to get things cooled down a little bit so it wouldn't ping. Fun times with timing lights.

[@1marcelfilms]

I change the initial timing on my geo metro and suzuki from 5 degrees to 9 degrees! WOWEE

[@MrZdvy]

1marcelfilms He is talking about total timing, not initial timing. That small Suzuki will still need 20+ degrees or so total timing.

[@modelnutty6503]

those little sewing machines LOVE being spun up!

[@immikeurnot]

@@MrZdvy Some of those, you could get away with changing total timing by adjusting initial timing (just like you can with an old school distributor.) Another one was pre-'96 Mazda Miata. If you can adjust initial timing, total timing is likely being changed by the same amount, since the curve is going to be a fixed map. He's not altering the curve, no. But he's moved the entire curve by 4 degrees.

[@1marcelfilms]

You can only adjust initial on stock ecu. the computer does the rest.@@MrZdvy

[@larrymitchell4124]

Awesome knowledge I think I need too advance my timing to 36• On my vortex 350 that’s 30 over and a 490 lift cam

[@mikealexander4166]

Nice job explaining. I’ve seen that DG interview, awesome story.

[@kurtzimmerman1637]

I read the same article about don garlits cranking that timing way up. his pit crew thought he was trying to blow it up so he could go back to the 392! the rest is history.

[@fastinradfordable]

Who said he wasn’t ? Lol

[@alanwhite3280]

Yes he was. He said so hizself. Garlits museum.

[@zmanphx]

Unless you had engine dyno , you can up the timing until it stops making more torque. Timing also affects exhaust temperature under load. You look at exhaust temperature peak.

[@oldguyhobbies4627]

That was sooooo informative and to the point. Thank you for the information! I'm new to the channel and will watch your other videos but what was also interesting was the story of the 426. If you haven't already shared that in a different video, it would be interesting to hear how you came about the information.

[@dbarkley1053]

I been waiting for you to cover this. So glad you did. If the 318 would want about 32*-33* total timing, what roughly would be initial and how much vacuum advance would you want your vacuum to add? My vacuum can has 17*.

[@Firebird400]

Nice video tony , I need to adjust the timing on my can now 🙄. Been messing with it a bit but it’s definitely not optimized. Need to get the carburetor sorted out then move to timing I guess

[@woogiespeed4472]

Great video and love the cardinal in the background lol

[@HarleyHawk1]

Pretty neat. I agree with bodywork. It's not my forte and it isn't as fun as mechanical work to me

[@Trikekid84]

Thanks for the info! My 230 i6 has a 3.9" bore now after going .03" so I'll try what you said, 32-33 total advance. Maybe it will wake this engine up! Was thinking about lightning up the springs or weights in the dizzy. Not a high rpm motor, similar to your 360, I want that low end snap.

[@Splungers]

If that is a Chevy 230, the early 194 Cu. in. chevy 6( with automatic trans) is steel, and has only 4 counterweights instead of 12. One heck of a cheap junkyard upgrade. won many oval track races with a $7.00 crankshaft.

[@Trikekid84]

@@Splungers I dont have that big boat anchor. Think I have 6 counterweights, it's not the forged one though. 😕

[@yobentley7274]

I kind of get it. Thank you for the continuing education.

[@ericheine2414]

How much real estate does the flame front have to cover. In another way are you saying it is because of the larger volume you need a larger advance in timing because of the burn rate? You're totally on point today Tony. Rock on.

[@mikebaldwin9972]

Basic are basics ,I learned that back in 62 !!!!

[@johnstadelman4022]

I really love your videos. Your LunarOutlaw's Garage buddy says he "really enjoys bodywork". Maybe he can be of some assistance.

[@davidmack834]

Isn't there a spring adjustment on the side of the distributor that adjusts timing? Also, if you have a big cam you won't have enough vacuum to run your distributor.........sorry, I couldn't resist. Great video.

[@ProjectFairmont]

Top notch info Uncle Tony!

[@johnnykruger5212]

Watching Uncle Tony explain mopar science is like watching Bob Ross paint; very soothing

[@nickmcwilliams685]

How about tips on setting ideal timing one a street car, no track, no dyno. I love the learn the theory, do it yourself mindset/method. However tuning requires feedback, faster/slower times at the strip etc. Understanding how to approximate ideal timing to star with will surely save time. However do you have a method for tuning it up on the street?