Ignoring Pitch Accent Is a MISTAKE

Yesterday George Trombley from Japanese From Zero released a video titled "Pitch Accent is Stupid, Change My Mind", where he expresses his opinion that pitch accent isn't worth explicitly learning about for to for the vast majority of Japanese learners. I think George couldn't be more wrong, and in this video I explain why. PLEASE NOTE: this video IS NOT an attack on George. I love George and think he's awesome. Just, every once in a while he has some bad takes on how to learn Japanese 😁
George's original video: • Pitch Accent is Stupid...
Sign up to my free newsletter, I might be sending out some pitch accent tips and tricks in the future: mattvsjapan.com​
If you're interested in learning pitch accent, I recommend Dogen's pronunciation course: / dogen
**MY LINKS**
👉 Newsletter: www.mattvsjapa...
👉 Website: refold.link/matt
👉 Twitter: / mattvsjapan
👉 Instagram: / mattvsjapan_

[@mattvsjapan]

Sign up to my free newsletter, I might be sending out some pitch accent tips and tricks in the future! mattvsjapan.com​ If you're interested in learning pitch accent, I recommend Dogen's pronunciation course: patreon.com/dogen

[@mypartyisprivate8693]

No, you are wrong. Nihongo isu furatto. Seriously though, when I heard pitch accent is a thing, I wanted to cry.

[@mypartyisprivate8693]

How could Japanese education and Japanese-English DICTIONARIES FFS be so oblivious (or so neglectfully non-comprehensive) for so long? English dictionaries have marked the accents of words for hundreds of years now. It has been STANDARD

[@fto1176]

@@과자-z8o Standard Korean doesn't have pitch accent. It uses pitch for a lot of things, but it's not an accent system. The example you provided actually is proof that it's a pitch accent system because the emphasis is overriding how you normally say it. Regional dialects of Korean do have pitch accent. (Most places in 경상도 for example.) Just to be sure, Standard / Seoul Korean makes use of pitch in its phonology to a significant extent. The way it uses pitch is not called pitch accent.

[@saebre.]

(Probably not gonna see this but) correct me if I'm wrong, but how can you say that George made pitch accent mistakes, when George said in his video that pitch accent is very different in different parts of Japan?

[@fto1176]

@@saebre. I like spelling as an analogy. Different English speaking regions have different spelling rules, but if you (1) spell something in a way no large group of natives do, then it's a "mistake," (2) mix all the major spelling patterns (sometimes American, sometimes British, sometimes Canadian, sometimes Indian) in one piece of writing, that would be seen as inaccurate and inconsistent, and (3) spell 90% of things American, but randomly mix in other spellings here and there, most copy editors will mark that as a inaccuracy. (1) is clearly a mistake. (2) and (3) depend on context and the person's background. From what I can tell, he's mostly doing (1) and, in the case (2) and (3), even when a Japanese person would say what he said, it's neither Aomori or Tokyo dialect, which means it's a mistake that coincidentally is valid in another region.

[@clayhamilton3551]

You want to know if your pitch accent is bad? Spend some time with kids. I work in a Japanese junior high school and let me tell you.. those kids will absolutely let you know if you're pronouncing something weird. They of course don't know about concepts like pitch accent, but they have no problem making fun of you for the way you pronounce something.

[@rrrmil]

That sounds like great advice! xD

[@SM-ok3sz]

Since when are you allowed around children?

[@IsraelCervantes-le4gf]

Kids are goated, screw adults and their fake niceness

[@aster2790]

That's actually really amazing! Learning pitch accent would be so much easier if people were always pointing out mistakes

[@itsaUSBline]

@@IsraelCervantes-le4gf It's not necessarily fake niceness, they might genuinely not want to hurt your feelings. That's called tact, which is different from being fake. Being fake would be if they were being polite even though they didn't care about your feelings at all.

[@marosuke139]

We’re happy when western ppl speak good Japanese, very true. We will never correct any kind of mistakes unless we know its appreciated. The more you’re correct with pitch accents the more impressed we are. FACT.

[@w1z4rd9]

これこれ。I back this up!

[@mmlane2263]

@asami would you be able to translate this for me please!!! 全世界に向けて限りない愛を放ちます Thank you very much if you can!!!

[@w1z4rd9]

@@mmlane2263: I'll unleash endless love to the world.

[@mmlane2263]

@@w1z4rd9 Thank you!!!

[@LadyBug-ox8bg]

@@mmlane2263 I recommend the app Hinative. You can ask natives to help you translate or teach you anything.

[@WayofRamen]

I agree with both of you. To use a metaphor, you are trying to train people to be professional chefs and George is trying to teach people to be home cooks. What someone wants to become is really up to them. Some will find all the gratification they need in just being able to cook something that they think tastes good, others will want to learn to cook well enough to impress other chefs. I think that's what the whole pitch accent debate comes down to.

[@AS-os3lj]

Well explained!

[@petrosstefanidis6396]

Very well said! I was trying to find the words to say exactly that. And damn I would like to mimic some professional cooking technics and recipes for fun but after a certain point enough is enough. From personal experience, speaking to foreigners or me being the foreigner, conversations light up and there is real connection and joy when there are interesting topics, honesty and good intentions. At that point (at least for me) the other's pronunciation becomes something you just embrace, like a haircut they have and you didn't like when you first met them but now you think "it's actually kind of fun", if that makes sense. On the contrary I've been disappointed by people who just nail the pronunciation and at first and super-impress you (because let's admit it, a foreigner speaking your not-that-popular language with a good pronunciation _is_ exciting). I think of that as a firework. After a few minutes your excitement caused by their well-trained pronunciation starts plummeting and you are left with the core of what they are saying and who they are, which is sometimes disappointing. *On top of that, if both me and the other person are foreigners I sometimes catch myself starting to actually like _their_ characteristic foreign pronunciation but that's another story.

[@c0_ber]

i think that misses matt's point though; it's really not that difficult to train yourself to hear pitch accent, and even if you only want to be a "home cook" you can be a much better one with really not much more time or effort.

[@moonlitspud]

But pitch accent isn't as hard to learn as people make out - otherwise how would anyone learn truly tonal languages? To use your metaphor, it's like being a home cook who ignores seasoning. Sure they've made the dish, and it seems just like the real thing. But with just a tiny bit more effort sprinkled on top, you can really make it taste amazing.

[@petrosstefanidis6396]

@@moonlitspud is it _that_ easy or to keep going with those cooking metaphors, it's like having to go to the super market first to buy the herbs and spices and then you can just use them? Because I can certainly understand why someone would not want to go through that then, when they just want to make a dish 😂. On the contrary if you're passionate about learning a language you can go through every obstacle.

[@yoshi31713]

I'm a native Japanese. And what you said is 100% true, in every respect! Your insight is actually amazing....

[@marosuke139]

Ditto.

[@DengueBurger]

lol todo means everything/all in spanish

[@iliaantipin9919]

Finally a confirmation from a native speaker! :)

[@yoshi31713]

The difference can be summed up this way. George is an obvious gaijin who speaks Japanese really well. With Matt, it's like, "Wait. Are you part Japanese? You grew up in Japan, right? You scared me a little there." 😂 That said, there are many foreigners who live in Japan that speak Japanese at a (near) native level, pronunciation included. Many Chinese, Koreans, and Russians stand out, in my opinion. People whose native language is English always tend to have some little, yet very noticeable accent. I guess that's why Matt just so stands out... When he speaks Japanese, I hear no (noticeable) accent whatsoever! So yeah, pitch accent does make a great difference. It's not crucial for making yourself understood, of course, but it's the difference between a gaijin and (being mistaken for) a part-Japanese!

[@iliaantipin9919]

@@yoshi31713 very interesting summary, thank you!

[@roger5442]

I like your content Matt, but I side with George on this. 1. you don't actually appear to be addressing his actual point. Instead you're misrepresenting what his position on this it. a. George isn't saying PA isn't important. If a beginner wants to spend time studying PA then they can. George's point is that studying PA isn't necessary. ie: not studying PA doesn't necessarily entail a person will be 'bad' at Japanese speaking to the point where they are not easily understood. 2. George's argument is exactly in line with my own personal experiences - I spent 0 hours studying PA and it hasn't hampered my experience talking with Japanese people; especially my Japanese relatives (my wife's side). 3. Your own responses actually refute your own position and prove George's. a. George isn't saying PA isn't important to Japanese people, and the clip you included shows that *even native Japanese make PA mistakes. And these aren't beginner foreigners. ie: PA isn't necessary for a beginner to study, because even native Japanese who have studied it still make errors that need correcting. b. You even acknowledge/concede that you can understand what George is saying in that clip *despite the PA errors you point out. Which is George's point: one doesn't necessarily need accurate PA to be able to speak Japanese that can be understood. 4. I asked my wife to listen to some of your own videos of you speaking Japanese and she could tell that you are not a native Japanese - she picked up on the fact that you're a foreigner. So despite your studies with PA it doesn't appear to have yielded you a native sound. In summery: George and I are saying that if a beginner wants to also add PA to their studies as they start out then they can, but it's not a necessary aspect. A beginner is still capable of speaking comprehensible Japanese without having to study PA.

[@Blahblahblah1234k]

so you're wife who watched a white guy speak Japanese, came to the conclusion that he isn't Japanese?!?! crazy!!!

I discovered pitch accent because in a conversation I meant to say one thing and it sounded like something completely unrelated because of the pitch I used, and a Japanese person pointed it out to me. So yes, pitch accent might not be the be all, end all of Japanese language learning, but if you dismiss it as "unimportant" I would conclude you just don't know what you're talking about.

[@mathew2378]

I like to think of it as like syllables in English. If you pronounce SYllable as in syLLAble, it may sound wierd

[@xXJ4FARGAMERXx]

@@mathew2378 while using English's stress patterns as a metaphor is better than nothing at all, it's not even half story. In english the difference between 1-"SYllable" and 2-"syLLAble" is *stark* no.1-length is 2-1-1 no.2-length is 1-2-1 no.1-volume is 3-1-1 no.2-volume is 1-3-2 no.1-pitch is 2-1-1 no.2-pitch is 1-3-1 And lastly, the phonemes themselves are different: SYllable is pronounced /ˈsɪləbəl/ Meanwhile syLLAble is pronounced /ˈsɪlæbəl/ In japanese though, the length is the same, the volume is the same, the phonemes are the same, the _Only_ difference is pitch.

[@manoloparra4772]

Un saludote, Rafy!

[@kirklurkpu4470]

Same, I really thought pitch accent concept doesn't exist, when I heard that Japanese is a flat language. That was the biggest lie 😭

[@ultraman6950]

Japanese people don't give a shit about pitch-accent. Since when that person you're talking about became the rule?

[@Vexxed]

I've watched both videos, it has been interesting listening to both sides of this discussion. George made a really interesting point in his video that wasn't brought up here. "Language is a tool to communicate, not an art to perfect." Having thought about this, I disagree with George's take. I think language can be both a tool and an art. Each person has different goals when learning a language. Some just want to become communicative (a tool) while others strive to master their second language (an art). It might be worthwhile for people consider whether their second language's value is as a tool, an art, or both.

[@brianmitchell2202]

I don't think either side is aiming for perfection, to be fair. I think the real disagreement is that of doing literally nothing to improve your pitch accent, and doing just a little (for example, use and try to internalize dogan's course).

[@shaianna.1222]

I mainly agree with that quote, although wouldn't a little accent practice make language more effective as a tool? Taking it all the way to Matt's level could probably be considered an art, but just a couple hours on pitch practice helps so so much

[@TkyoSam]

Damn right son

[@irishpanda8648]

Oh wow you’re alive? Thought North Korea got you

[@kirklurkpu4470]

Every language is an art, and pitch accent isn't discounted from Japanese's unique syntax and grammar. Pitch accent is part of that tool, it's a small part yet produces a big impact. Of course this is my opinion because I don't want people fighting here and there. Just study pitch accent, it's important.

[@Snugboy]

Matt bro stop I NEED TO immerse but your content is too good 😭😭😭😭😭

[@EXTREMEKIWI115]

FAX

[@lordazrielxiii7731]

Being "good enough" is good enough for most people. Not everyone has to be a perfectionist in a chosen language. People usually just want to be able to communicate. Once you're able to communicate first, then of course you'll be able to correct and tweak your speaking with the help of native speakers AS YOU SPEAK TO THEM. Overly focusing on pitch when just starting out can turn people off and make them give up learning the language in the first place. Then nothing would matter.It's already hard enough to stay motivated. Let people learn in a nice and easy way so they can at least talk to natives and get further help. Nobody likes a stickler.

[@zeymort3926]

I think they both make good points in their own way, but I also feel like Matt isn't fully comprehending George's basic argument. Go watch George's video, and then watch this one again and you'll see what I mean. For another perspective, Steve Kaufmann also has a video about this topic called "Pitch Accent: Is It Important?" in which he basically agrees with George.

[@human47134]

fluency first, then pitch accent. learning japanese is hard enough as it is, it's considered one of the hardest on the rosetta stone ranking up there with arabic. It's hard enough learning non-latin characters, different syntax, etc to tell people to learn pitch accent on top.

[@アナスジーラニー]

If you're fluent, then it would too late to fix your pitch accent lol

[@Naoko1875]

If something seems difficult to learn, your mind will always try to tell you that you do not really need to improve in this specific area and that your life will be more or less the same with or without this additional skill. So it’s good to have some other sources beside your own thought patterns.

[@danielh.3746]

That blue font on the thumbnail looks awfully familiar

[@spkgyk]

Excellent video! I’d like to also point out something you missed that further strengthens your argument. The mistakes he makes aren’t on even remotely rare words. The mistakes are on some of the most common words in the entire Japanese language. He will have heard them literally tens of thousands of times and yet he still gets them wrong, so clearly imitation without foundational pitch accent knowledge is never going to work. It would be a different story if he only messed up on rare words….

[@danielantony1882]

@@valentinoleynik1255 Did you mean to say "Dialect"?

[@fto1176]

@@valentinoleynik1255 The dialects used in the most northern regions of Japan (like Aomori) are much closer to Tokyo Japanese than George's Japanese. More importantly, people from such regions who spend any significant time in Tokyo (or a lot of time conversing in and listening to Tokyo Japanese) are able to imitate Tokyo Japanese far, FAR better than George does.

[@koutta-idiomas8118]

12:11 That really hit me. 3 years ago my channel used to be called KouttVsJapan because of this community. That's UNTIL I noticed all the ego and all the "red pill; blue pill" thing there was going around on the discord server (when it used to cost like 1-3usd to get into). I immediately got out and changed my name and went on my own with the learning (to be honest was a bit lonely). I'm glad you guys changed that and seems to be a little bit more modest and friendly now.

[@aphorg7008]

Recently, I've been considering the importance of pitch accent to fluency, and I guess I have complicated ideas about it. I have done very little "book learning" of Japanese in favor of learning primarily from participating in real-life conversations (whether spoken or over text). Being a pretty good mimic and having a habit of repeating what I hear, I have long been at a point where I get specific compliments on my intonation and fluency, but I am also aware that I have a limited ear for pitch. When you reach this level of fluency though, it can and does come up in conversation because as you mentioned, native Japanese speakers frequently catch themselves and each other making mistakes in pitch or intonation. Often it's a side effect of regional dialects having different patterns, but the fact is that it's noticeable enough that you can often tell someone's "not from around here" just from those "mistakes." So while I recognize that it is definitely an important element to real fluency and getting closer to native-level Japanese, the fact that even native speakers often disagree on pitch patterns gives me a good excuse to continue avoiding that kind of sit-down studying that I really don't enjoy.

[@kaistigerboy]

Pitch accent is important I’m married to a Japanese and my wife always comment’s when my accent is wrong eg high and low tones, and my Japanese is very basic

[@fatimahmakgatho8968]

I did my homework on this and honestly, I think George is still right. (That doesn't mean Matt is wrong tho. 2 things can be true at the same time.) Learning pitch accent is like learning the American accent so that u can "sound native." It kind of ignores the fact that accents and dialects are just a normal part of every language. Ppl from dif parts of Japan have dif accents. The same goes for all English speakers. You don't have to master Standard Japanese. Just learn the vocab, grammar and the nature flow of the language. You'll be fine.

[@roger5442]

I agree. I've never studied PA and it hasn't hampered my ability to have comprehensible conversations in Japanese with my wife and her family who are all Japanese. A beginner can add PA to their studies if they want, but it's not a necessary aspect, that Matt promotes it to be. I think Matt undermines his own point be conceding that he can understand George's Japanese despite his PA errors. Also the clip of the Japanese people shows that even natives, who have studied PA still make PA mistakes anyway. I just don't think Matt understands George's point.

[@TheNintendoFAILS]

In my experience pitch accent gets really important when you use a lot of uncommon vocabulary. If you mess up the pitch accent in words like 世界、日本語、歴史or食べ物 everybody would still understand you, just because those words are used so regularly. But when words like 演繹、廃仏毀釈or公卿 your pitch accent has to be perfect in order for Japanese speakers to understand you. It's just like in English. Mispronouncing the word 'tomorrow' might sound strange, but nobody has a problem understanding it. But if out of context somebody says 'anachronistic' and fucks up the pronunciation bad, a lot of people probably would not catch it.

[@Mojo702]

I watched that pitch accent video; it was one of the first I came across from your channel. I loved it. Would like to see more of those.

[@Oldybker1]

Very informative. I'm glad I watched this now at the beginning of my Japanese journey. This will save me time by getting it right from the beginning before trying to fix bad habits later.

[@reggietkatter]

Have you ever considered that the problem with pitch accent maybe isn’t that you didn’t study it enough, but that the all conscious work (SRS) and early reading (it isn’t explicitly notated in Japanese orthography, correct?) you did do to learn the language interfered with your acquisition process/played a part in fossilizing your pronunciation before the pitch accent bit could be naturally acquired?

[@reggietkatter]

After all, if we take Krashen and others seriously, all these kinds of aspects of fluency are never explicitly studied by natives before they are already fluent.

[@flaviospadavecchia5126]

I have definitely been pointed out pitch accent mistakes even in a non-learning environment. For example, I meant to say "plate" (sara), but they thought I was talking about someone named Sarah, so they had to pause me and ask for clarification.

[@NatsumiFukada]

すご…こんな感じで音程を一つ一つ勉強してるんや…私の英語のモチベーションになるわ、今のレベルに満足せず細かいところまで習得します！

[@JoiskiMe]

My mother tongue is a pitch accent language and some of the leaders in church are Americans. I internally scream/correct them when they preach with the wrong pitch-accent. There's something alienating about it, even though I can understand what he's going for haha. Bad pitch accent slows the flow of the conversation (having to consider what they might be saying/making them repeat themselves), changes the meaning of words and makes you sound a bit "challenged" tbh. But I agree with George's philosophy of not over-complicating language learning. Throwing oneself into the challenge with bravery is much better than being anxious because of pitch-accent.

[@bofbob1]

4:35 "Most native speakers would prefer to hear natural, normal English". I wouldn't. I have no idea what "most" other people prefer, but for me there's a spectrum there. With very thick accents and broken grammar, sure, I would prefer something that required less effort to understand. But at some point of proficiency, even if there are still plenty things "wrong" with the accent, rhythm, etc., I honestly stop caring about it. In fact, in some cases I find that even adds a bit of charm, a bit of spice that is quite enjoyable to listen to. Dunno how that fits into the pitch accent debate though. 12:14 For whatever reason, people's identities get really wrapped up in this stuff. I just get a kick out of it when people bring up "the science" to try to justify whatever opinion they happen to favour. There's just not much you can extract from the data that can serve as an overarching method for language learning. One crucial point that distinguishes science from a lot of these online discussions/opinions is the consideration given to other variables that might explain a difference in outcome. And because of that, every method, regardless of how convinced X or Y person is about its efficiency, should be taken with a big grain of salt. Perhaps the reason people get so authoritative about all this stuff is precisely because most of it doesn't have a strong scientific backing? Compensation as it were? Who knows.

[@micke5735]

I think these are fair points, and I as a native Swedish speaker feel much more comfortable listening to another native Swedish speaker. I have to put a little bit more effort in to listening to a non native speaker. With that being said, I have worked with foreign co-workers who spoke with an accent and I got used to it after a while and it doesn't feel taxing after some time has passed

[@PoLanka65]

A japanese-spanish translator here. If a japanese learner came across this video wanting to know the importance of pitch accent, i would give them this piece of advice: If you are not able to perceive something, you won’t become able to perceive it just by studying it. It's like thinking that you could learn to see unknown colors just by studying really hard about infrared and ultraviolet light. It makes no sense at all. The problem with Matt’s way of aboarding the issue is that he starts by saying "studying pitch accent helps to improve your listening" (which sounds reasonable), but ends up saying "you NEED pitch accent in order to BE ABLE TO HEAR". Well sorry, but i’ve been able to hear since i was a baby. I didn't learn it from Matt, and probably neither did you. Did Matt objectively prove that japanese people have some 'special japanese hearing' and that foreigners need special training to acquire it? No, he didn’t, and that would be a crazy arbitrary claim. He shows us a video of japanese people arguing about pitch accent and presents that as proof of… what exactly? All it proves is that not all japanese are equally mindful about their own pitch accent in casual conversation. But what is even more crazy about this whole pitch accent controversy is that the alleged reason we are given to delve into the subject isn't a reason at all. We should be wary of pitch accent, they say, because "native speakers prefer people who speak in a natural and normal way". What kind of twisted motivation is that? It implies that you, as a language learner, should take into account the preferences of native speakers of a language you don’t fully master yet. How are you supposed to know what those preferences are? You can’t ask the natives themselves because you are not able to fully communicate with them yet… unless they speak your language too. So the only way of dealing with pitch accent is having a master that speaks your language, just like Matt or Dogen. Forget about inmersion, comprehensive input, or any kind of self-taught acquisition. What you need is a third party who shoves the language down into your brain. That is the contradiction that this pitch accent "controversy” leads to. If you believe that kind of approach is useful to learn anything, you may as well learn from duolingo (and even THAT would be better).

[@glenn7484]

I don’t know how you can say you can’t learn to hear it, that’s just baffling. When it’s not a part of your native language, it’s super likely you won’t pick up on it without having it pointed out to you. Once it’s pointed out with just a few specific examples, it becomes obvious what pitch accent is. From there, it’s just a matter of practice.

[@PoLanka65]

@@glenn7484 I never said "learn to hear", i said "be able to hear". Also, there is a difference between listening and hearing. If you say practice improves listening, that is prefectly fine, i agree with that. Yes, you can learn to listen to a language. But no one teaches you to HEAR. Your ears do the hearing for you. If they are healthy you hear, if not, you are deaf. I don't agree with those who claim that i can't HEAR pitch accent. Telling people that they can't hear something is literally acusing them of being deaf. But if they were deaf, they would have trouble hearing ANY language (even their native) not just japanese.

[@glenn7484]

@@PoLanka65 ok well I appreciate precise usage of language, so I’m happy to take your point. Though I did think it was clear that ‘hearing’ in this usage implied consciously noticing.

[@PoLanka65]

@@glenn7484 I got your point, and that is why i essentialy agreed with you. But the distinction between those two things was precisely what i was pointing out on my original comment: That the problem with the pitch accent polemicist is that they start by saying something true (that studying it does help to your listening), but then they go nuts and make some absurd claims about a kind of "deafness" of the non-native speakers. They specially insist on the latter when confronted with the fact that pitch accent is not the most fundamental aspect of japanese, and that learners are correct when they leave it for last among their priorities.

[@billambers7756]

I just had a remark about the fact that even though I learned English only by being immersed, people are telling me that my pronunciation is very good. So do we really need to learn pitch accent when massive exposure makes you get the right pronunciation, that is why i think it can help but only having big exposure to the language does a great job too.

[@looper1707]

日本人です。I am Japanese. I love what you do and respect how much you have studied the language, but I don't like the fact that you count his pitch "differences" as "mistakes" based on Tokyo so called standard accent... If you are so critical about how people speak in Japanese, they are going to be so stressed and at the end lose their motivation to study Japanese ... I can point out and count your pitch accent "mistakes" for each video...

[@bitterbloodeddemon]

With this increase of pitch accent studies, and the community getting increasingly hyper-critical, and even attacking and insulting people for not having perfect pitch accent, especially if you have an opinion, has pretty much terrified me out of speaking at all.

[@jimmybongos6190]

From what I've heard he lived in somewhere like 青森 for 9 years growing up. I could be wrong.

[@looper1707]

@@jimmybongos6190 yeah he has a regional pitch accent, that's all. Matt just does not know about it.... poor guy..

[@jimmybongos6190]

@@looper1707 although he did state his Touhoku accent has mainly went away but probably picks up on Kansai accent from his wife.

[@matthewvolkwyn6346]

Nailed it! Started studying pitch accent around two years back when you first mentioned it. Still working on hearing it all but this helped a ton!

[@catisgod]

I'm fluent in English, and having problems on the accent. I didn't expect that I would go back to sharpen my accent while learning Japanese from your videos.

[@justadudebrowsin5807]

Not disagreeing with you, but pointing out: out of fairness, you should go through a random video on your channel of you speaking japanese and point out any mistakes, for comparison. It's also not uncommon for native speakers to make all kinds of mistakes. You could probably find at least 5 mistakes in 30s of me speaking my native english language if you're comparing it to "perfect".

[@gazelle4204]

As someone who speaks Chinese The importance of Pitch Accent has always been an important factor, since for example: 1. 一 2. 疑 3. 以 4. 意 All of the four chinese character are pronounced as (Yi) but they follow different pitch accent, and messing them up can change the meaning of the entire phrase Although i am not sure the full extent of how pitch accents can impact the meaning of a sentence, it is certainly not something to ignore if you find it difficult to comprehend the pitch

[@brownbricks6017]

Right, but Mandarin is a tonal language, whereas Japanese and English, for example, are not. So while 不是 and 卜筮 are completely different phrases separated only by tone, using the incorrect pitch in Japanese or incorrectly placing the stress in English will sound weird, but it usually won't produce a new meaning.

[@alfredomulleretxeberria4239]

@@brownbricks6017 Japanese has two tones. Mandarin has 4.

[@bobboberson8297]

@@alfredomulleretxeberria4239 That's bad linguistics. Japanese has 2 tones as much as english 2 pitches

[@scorit-zq4yx]

You just sound like a french Canadian when you change your English pitch accent lol.

[@forzaa867]

lmao TRUE

[@oribasu8033]

The people who aren't familiar with Dogen's merch are probably like 'ヒ WHAT??? WHAT DOES YOUR T SHIRT SAY?!!?!?'

[@TheLongestConfidence]

George's Japanese in that video sounds obviously wrong, and I don't even know enough Japanese to know what he's saying.

[@Whillyy]

i guess hearing pitch accent is like hearing the long vowels. When i started learning japanese i had no clue how to difference a long vowels from a short one. everytime i tried to wright a word i hear in kana i always made mistakes. But i trained my ears and listen a lot to be able to hear it well Now i can say where there's a long vowels on new words without fail. I guess it's not that hard as the pitch accent, but when i was a begginers it bugged me a lot :d

[@davidhumphrey8596]

I think everything you said here is right and overall George is probably underestimating the importance of pitch accent. But I will say, if worrying about pitch is causing someone a lot of stress or making Japanese less enjoyable they should probably just forget about it. Language learning should be fun.

[@malcolmsilva]

The fact you sounded like a Newf when showing an "off" pitch for english is hilarious to me.

[@jbkhan1135]

After reading a number of the comments here, I think the takeaway is: 1. If you don't care at all about sounding unskilled in Japanese, feel free to half-a$$ your Japanese learning. 2. If you want to speak a language as good as you possibly can, you need to study the things in the language that will allow you to get there and also put in the time/effort required. Listening to the two of them (George and Matt) speaking Japanese, it's pretty clear which category is which. Choose the teacher who will get you the results you want.

[@inglesrapidoconunaussie7941]

Did you get a new editor? or learn some new tricks? The quality of your videos has gone up 10 fold. Awesome content keep it up. I want to see more

[@Michaelatkins15]

He refolds his editing skills too.

[@mattvsjapan]

I edited this myself, thanks!!

[@Giraffinator]

The thing that convinced me to start learning pitch-accent was the prospect of saying 運行 incorrectly

[@depressedteadepressoespres186]

Pitch accent can literally change the meaning of a word- it can keep you from saying peach instead of thighs, and flower instead of nose... of course it’s important 😂.

[@fabiantrz]

agree but I don't, what you are asking is study 5 years, George study 1 year, why you want to study Japanese, the goal is the way, your way is living in japan, George anything else.

[@ncx8049]

I need to up my pitch accent game. I'm studying in an acting school in Tokyo and I'm easily mistaken for a Japanese, so pitch accent is a must for me. Generally though, I just go by ear. There's that classic "kami" that can mean paper, hair, or god. I don't need to think about the pitch accent to differentiate god and the other two anymore, but always need to keep in mind the context for paper and hair.

[@aiyoway888]

We human beings are constantly struggling among sour grapes and sweet lemons? :-)

[@gristen]

i never even heard of pitch accent until just a few years ago. not a single resource id been using ever thought to mention it. it was funny too cause i had just finished telling someone that japanese wasnt a tonal language like chinese and like literally the next day i was like "oh....oh no"

[@orlandopalomares4809]

As always, great video.

[@donluciano]

Somehow you missed a couple of interesting points that George made. I watched the whole video and you did not even mention them. And I get the feeling that instead, you just referred to those ones that you felt most comfortable with to prove George wrong. According to which pitch accent type, the words that George said were pronounced incorrectly? The standard Tokyo one? As we know, pitch accent varies between dialects, so was the way he pronounced the words(that you claim to be mispronounced) wrong according to kansai or tohoku dialect? Also, what's your opinion on what George said about the は not going down, but actually staying up in cases like the one that he described in his video at 1:04?

[@dokabenmonth]

Why someone would purposefully disregard the accent system when learning any new language is beyond me.

[@ogrigorigoi]

To be honest unless you pointed out I wouldn’t notice some of George mistakes on pitch 😂 But it is true we care about pitch. I’m from Tokyo currently living Aichi, some of Aichi accents on pitch are very different in a way it sounds a bit disturbing to my ear.

[@makima7844]

同じこと思った

[@ZombieOrgasm]

It's absolutely fine if you don't care about pitch accent. But developing any sense of awareness of makes a huge difference. To put in perspective, when I speak Japanese to students they will point weird pronunciation right away. They're far more honest than adults. If you could choose to sound more clearer with just a little bit of pitch accent awareness, then why not is my own personal view.

[@mylearningjournal7188]

Japanese pitch accent is not as difficult as English stress accent.

[@mattvsjapan]

haha I wish, Japanese pitch accent is 10 times more complicated than Engish stress accent

[@Omni0404]

I still can't believe the guy who seemed to have no appreciation for foreign language sells language learning books.

[@gabedawg]

First he removes the debate, then he removes his reaction video (reacting to this). Perhaps that is because he slowly realized how important pitch accent is…. 😄

[@JapanWalkerJJ]

Matt you need to collaborate with Joey aka The Anime Man and speak to him in Japanese

[@Daichidesu095]

Really like your videos bro. Im half greek/half japanese raised in Greece and had been speaking japanese until my 7th year of age and was like a japanese person of fluency then stopped cause my brother was born and was diagnosed with autism. Your videos are really helpful to get back to the level i was, currently studying japanese again :D Thank you !! Disclaimer : Dont like George, arrogant >:(

[@LunarSovereign]

It's also worth mentioning that George has pointed out in his videos before that his wife's family have told him he has a Tohoku accent (which he should given half his life was spent in that region), and as of recently he's been picking up some Kansai from his wife. While it's still valid to point out he doesn't have any pitch accent study experience, he's still an accomplished speaker and teacher, and what was pointed out as "incorrect" could probably be mostly attributed to accent/dialect differences

[@emu2329]

isn't pitch accent just intonation? i don't study Japanese, i study Korean and google says Korean doesn't have any pitch accent

[@user-it8kw3wy2y]

Please review Natalie Natchan!!!!

[@derpauleglot9772]

yoo dount kneed too lirn or practiss speling becoz their arr too manee roolz and peepl wil still undirstanchoo wenn yoo mess up

[@memestopicxd7649]

FUNNY!

[@firly3]

I know you made a video on foreign speakers not being able to acquire pitch accent, but what about if they train to perceive pitch accent at the beginning of their Japanese study? Do you think if you were able to perceive the pitch of Japanese words before you immersed so much, do you think you would've acquired it as well?

[@weilermusic5057]

If george of all people is making those mistakes I don't want to even speak sentences 0.0

[@fatimahmakgatho8968]

👀 yoh, let's just ask the Japanese ppl It's their language

[@snotrohmitabc123]

7:31 “The real value in studying pitch accent is not to try to use the rules in real time. It’s that it allows you to unlock your perception.” Hit the nail on the head with that one. I appreciate how concisely you put it into words. As a native Cantonese speaker, I can’t stress how true this is. Great video. I love the way you speak in general and hope that it will help me improve my speaking skills too.

[@gustavoteles5994]

Hey, man. I like you, but i think you're on the wrong on this one. I think your argument comes from a language learning fetish of sounding like an arbitrary "standard native". In other words, i do think pitch accent it's not that important and foreigners should even embrace their accent which shows their roots and contribute in a different way to japanese culture.

[@coolbrotherf127]

It's kind of disrespectful to purposely not speak their language correctly because you couldn't be bothered to learn a few more things about it.

[@gustavoteles5994]

@@coolbrotherf127 I don't think so. Hear me out: if you hear someone speaking your mother language with correct grammar, being able to communicate anything with you, what do you think at that moment? "Oh! This person learned my mother language as his third language and he has an accent... That's kind of disrespectful!" Or do you think: "Oh! This person learned my mother language as his third language and he has an accent... How nice he took time to learn it!" The point of LANGUAGE and learning one is communicating. My point is: if you have an accent, that communicates you are a foreigner which... you are. And there's nothing inherently "wrong" about it. For me, there's NO "CORRECT" ACCENT if you are able to communicate in a language and took time to understand the culture around it too... Anyway, I hope that this makes my stance more clear. If you disagree, let's agree to disagree, my friend!

[@coolbrotherf127]

@@gustavoteles5994 The difference though is that pitch in Japanese, similar to tones in Mandarin or Cantonese, directly changes not just the sound of the words, but also the meaning. By saying words with the wrong pitch, you're just saying the wrong word, not the same word with just a different sound. A language like English can be easily understood with a different accent as few words can be confused for each other, but Japanese requires the pitch to be consistent to be understood easily due to the large number of homophones. No one would say some was fluent in speaking English if they just said random words in their sentences instead of the correct words, and I feel it's the same in Japanese. Part of fluency is learning the pitch of words so those listening to you don't have to guess what you're saying.

[@gustavoteles5994]

@@coolbrotherf127 Maybe the solution for that is context like in the example of hashi to chopsticks and bridge. Context will save anyone from that confusion... I think. But, I think that this point you made is strong. Pitch accent grew a little more in importance to me, but idk. I think the point i made is importante too. Anyway, I need to study more japanese too hehe

[@SuperKamiGuruu]

The circle is now complete. When I left you I was but the learner. Now, *I* am the master. -Matt

[@rd-ub2ox]

Only a master of evil Matt. -George

[@darthrevan4251]

Hello there

[@rd-ub2ox]

@@darthrevan4251 General Kenobi!

[@DrAgoti-jk2ff]

@@rd-ub2ox You are a bold one!

[@Jemdawg1000]

The fact that pitch accent in Japanese is equivalent to stress accent in English should make it clear how important it is for proper pronunciation. Edit: Never said your pronunciation has to be perfect.

[@R0Tl]

As a native English speaker, I can tell you that I was not taught about word stresses until like college. We may have mentioned it before in passing, but barely discussed it. Like most native English speakers, I learned word stresses/emphasis naturally, through hearing other people say the words and essentially copying them. That's why I don't think pitch accent is really important to study, unless you're trying to perfect your Japanese. I'm about 7 months into my Japanese learning, and I've noticed recently that I tend to pronounce the pitches to most of the words I use correctly. For example, 髪 vs 神. But no one taught me these pitch accents. I have been doing audio listening, like podcasts. And my primary anki deck uses audio from native Japanese speakers. As I repeat what they say and mimic them, over time, I start picking up the pitch accent. It's only when I think about it, or hear the wrong version, that I really notice the pitch accent. Right now, becoming fluent and being able to read and listen to Japanese, as well as communicate, is more important to me. That's my just two cents. Of course, I'm not saying you can't focus on pitch accent. I'm a fan of MattVsJapan and have used a lot of Refold's strategy. I just personally don't think it's worth the focus until you're advanced and quite fluent in Japanese and trying to become an expert.

[@Charly_dvorak]

@@blahblahsuperanon the difference is that most English native speakers are used to hearing foreign accents Whereas most Japanese people aren't

[@soyoltoi]

@@R0Tl Pitch accent doesn't need to be a focus. It's just in the background. The choice is to ignore it or to not ignore it. Your brain didn't ignore it, and now you know the right pitch for words. But not everyone is like you in that a lot of people become fluent in Japanese and don't realize they're using the wrong pitch accents. So for them, it's an active choice, one anyone can easily make near the beginning to start noticing pitch.

[@Ruebz_f30]

I'm a native English speaker and I've never heard of word stresses or stress accent until I read this this comment 🤣

[@UItraVioIet]

I disagree. As far as I’m aware, stress accent (in this sort of context) is only to differentiate verbs vs nouns when the word is the same. Any other homophones are the same. Other types of English stress patterns aren’t even close to being comparable. Pitch accent is far more common for distinguishing homophones in Japanese, but it’s still not all of them. There are plenty of homophones that have the exact same pitch accent and kanji/context is the only way of knowing. Sometimes kanji is the only way. “Hair” and “paper” have the exact same pitch accent. Not only can you cut both, but you can cut both with scissors. While they serve similar purposes (distinguishing homophones), English stress accent has a far narrower, much more specific usage, so I would fervently disagree that they are “equivalent”.

[@FlowUrbanFlow]

I love that despite you and George not exactly agreeing and sharing same ideas that you guys can collaborate in some kind of different ways and still produce constructive content for the community

[@mimori8]

Pitch accent being important has to be the most exaggerated thing youtubers made up to sell you their shit lesson plans. It's probably last on the list of things to focus on. You're not gonna sound native before knowing lots of words and having lots of experience. Pitch accent is only a small part of that. Imagine if English teachers started making whole channels dedicated to stress in English. Such a small insignificant thing to focus on. It's strange. It's really just mystifying something that's really rather simple to make money, misdirecting newcomers in the process. And the funny thing is Matt's pitch accent isn't even perfect.

[@megazoned3973]

As Matt points out, he and George are Gaijin. Japanese people will not be concerned with their pitch accent. Of course if you say something wrong you’re gonna get a word repeated for clarification. The problem when being a Gaijin speaking with a good accent is Japanese people will think you can speak Japanese when you can’t. It’s almost better in the beginning to sound like a foreigner..

[@RockChampEnglish]

FYI In Cantonese, there are 6 pitches, but in English and Japanese, there are only two.... so ... what's the fuss abt it lol

[@FlowUrbanFlow]

Halfway through the video, As much as I love George I believe that every point you are making is extremely valid. I love that you pointed out that it is good enough and will be understood by most people because I think that is generally the vibe that George aims for with his learning curriculum whereas I think that your methods are more pointed towards perfectionism which isn't necessarily a bad thing but may not be everybody's goal

[@EXTREMEKIWI115]

When worlds collide, you can run, but no can hide.

[@Griffdog21]

You'll laugh so hard you'll swear you died

[@brownbricks6017]

Don't neglect phonology when learning languages in general.

[@brownbricks6017]

*Cough cough* Xiaoma

[@Geo-st4jv]

@@brownbricks6017 yeah I don't speak Mandarin and I know for a fact there's no way his Chinese pronounciation is really that great huhu

[@Nifuruc]

@@Geo-st4jv How do you know if you don't speak Mandarin? Maybe you should make an effort to learn a language yourself before you start the trashtalk... "for a fact"...

[@blahblahsuperanon]

@@Geo-st4jv Even if it's not, why do people care so much? I'm a native English speaker and there are so many English learners with terrible accents. Idc bc I know they're trying. As long as I can mostly understand them, that's good enough for me.

[@kodyrobinson7479]

@@blahblahsuperanon and they probably have a flawless accent in their native language as most people tend to....

[@jodida10]

I mean when I learned English at some point I realized how important intonation and pronunciation in the language are, so I suppose in Japanese it's the same. Like the word "record" used as a noun has different stress than used as a verb.

[@sk8_bort]

That's not pitch accent though.

[@Michaelatkins15]

@@sk8_bort he didn't say it's pitch accent tho lol

[@sk8_bort]

@@Michaelatkins15 I mean, this whole discussion was about pitch accent, but I guess you're right XD

[@TokyoXtreme]

@@sk8_bort Pitch accent is the manifestation of pronunciation and intonation in Japanese, as is stress accent in English. They are completely analogous.

[@papafhill9126]

It's funny, because George is still speaking as an English speaker with stress-accenting words. When he said "えいご" it was like saying, "Therefore" where we stress the first syllable, like he was trying to put emphasis in the word "English" to make a point.

[@yaboitroy4101]

Yeah, I actually mentioned this in a comment as well but it’s one of the super common pitch accent mistakes English speakers made since it’s how you would stress words in English. Japanese people don’t emphasize words in the same way, or in ways that compromise the pitch accent. I remember Dogen giving an example where he stressed the が in 学校 as well when he wanted to emphasize it.

[@moonlitspud]

Yeah it's a super easy mistake to make. Same with changing tone to indicate a question in a tonal language. I often need to stop myself from instinctively rising my tone at the end of a name when asking a taxi driver to take me somewhere in Thailand.

[@bookwormbon482]

Dang this is complicated! How do you guys learn this?

[@papafhill9126]

@@bookwormbon482 Tae Kim's Grammar guide, immersion (simply listening to the language for many long hours), reading material in the target language, and having a practice buddy who knows the language. That's my tactics and I don't really try that hard to learn it.

[@babygorl9541]

@@papafhill9126 i think they were asking how you guys learn pitch accent, not the language in general

[@lalalalalala9333]

When I was in college I learnt Japanese for two years, pitch accent was never mentioned. So I'm really not sure how important the pitch accent is. Then again, I still consider myself a beginner. Thinking about this logically, imagine the number of foreigners who come to the United States and speak English with an accent. When the person speaks, do we focus on their accent or do we focus on the conversation we're having? I've met so many people with an extremely high level of English and they still had an accent, yet our conversation were very fun and intriguing. To my understanding, language is a tool you use to communicate with people. Therefore it's probably not necessary for someone to stress themselves out over sharpening it like a knife. Lastly, I hope people are not discouraged to start learning Japanese from all this talk on pitch accent. The language is already quite challenging (for native speakers of English) as it is. What's the point of adding another layer to that?

[@pavelmartinez4617]

I really appreciate your point regarding language learning being hard on its own and how the most important thing is to get your message across.

[@humanbean3]

i think the point is just to acknowledge it at least. your brain will do the rest if you let it. once you perceive it there wont be any extra effort involved.

[@TokyoXtreme]

My university textbook “Japanese the Spoken Language” introduced pitch accent from the very first chapter, and the entire book (words and sentences) was diagrammed.

[@monkut]

Same, it was introduced but not stressed or tested. I'm fuent, but having not really studied pitch, my pitch is off, but as mentioned it rarely causes comunication issues.

[@KingProbherbs]

I was literally watching that video when I got the notification for this one 🤣

[@elitist8159]

That Aot skit of yours you did awhile ago was awesome bro

[@KingProbherbs]

@@elitist8159 haha that's funny getting recognized here thank you

[@pahoopahoo]

日本語で失礼します(いつもじゃねえか)。 正直今ボコボコと言いたいことがいろいろ湧き上がってきているんですけど今は控えます。理由はかなり微妙な論点だというのと今の時点では私の英語力の無さからジョージ先生とマット先生のそれぞれの動画の詳細な発言の内容を把握しきれていないためです。 私は英語で5分の動画があったとしたらネイティブの人が5分でわかるところを、何度も繰り返して視聴して発言の内容をそれなりに把握するには最終的には40～50分かかってしまうようなお粗末なレベルなので、これから何度もこの動画を繰り返して見てちゃんとマット先生が言っていることを理解してから(現時点ではぼんやりとしかわかっていない)改めて投稿します。 どうでもいいですが、Tシャツの文字が気になりました。｢ヒ｣にも｢と｣にも見えるのですが、おそらく｢ヒ｣のほうでしょうか。おそらく縦書きで｢ヒ～｣と続いていると思われて、それをちょっと予想したりしたのですが最後まで答えが明かされず、うぉぉってなりました。

[@sv8716]

たぶんですが、「ひらがな」がカタカナで書いてあるジョークtシャツだと思います

[@megamannt125]

I think George's main point is he doesn't want new learners to get overwhelmed and think about quitting and that they should only learn pitch accent if they're very enthusiastic about the language, and I think that's the fair point to make.

[@remsy9935]

They thing is tho, which kind of negates his whole argument, is that in the refold method pitch accent is not focused on/studied until wayyy far in the process. By the time its recommended u start working on ur pitch accent, u will have been learning the language for so long that ur already committed. Its not something that is supposed to be studied as a beginner. Im interested to see how this is discussed in the debate.

[@megamannt125]

@@remsy9935 Of course, but a lot of beginners do stumble upon videos about pitch accents and then feel like it's too much. I saw several people in George's comments who said things like "I was discouraged about learning Japanese because of pitch accent but your video made me feel better".

[@donpax8959]

​@@megamannt125 I bet most people like that won't even seriously learn Japanese, because if they "discouraged about learning Japanese because of pitch accent" instead of being "excited to learn this new "stress system" in the language they would love to learn" or smth like that, it means they don't truly want to learn Japanese, they're just having fun. There's nothing wrong with that approach, it's just George should've said "it's okay to not care about pitch accent if you're just having fun learning languages" or smth like that, but not "pitch accent is not important"

[@joegriffithsmusic]

True, but passing that of as something that's not necessary at all isn't the best move, in my opinion. If it's important to someone who wants to sound as close to native as possible, then it's definitely important to learn. You literally won't be able to sound near native without it, but again as loads of people said if you understand that your Japanese is going to be ok but never really near perfect then not learning pitch accent is completely cool too! I just think putting a video out saying that it's dumb and people shouldn't learn it is in itself kinda dumb.

[@nahte-]

Okay, but the way he makes the point is totally wrong. He’s making it seem like it’s a cardinal sin to study pitch accent. “YoUr bRaiN WiLL LiTeRaLLy eXpLoDe!” I mean, come on, really? He’s just being so childish, and it makes him look really unintelligent. Like, just look at the title of his video “Pitch Accent Is Stupid.” If he really wanted to only convey that he didn’t want learners to feel overwhelmed, he could’ve picked like literally any other title rather than the obnoxious one that he chose.

[@NoMagicHackz]

確かに標準語でも、発音、イントネーション間違えてたら勘違いされる場合が多い。その上、他の言語と同じく、pitch accentと人々の独特な発音によって大体どこら辺から育てられて来たのか分かることが多いのでそれももう一つの大切なところだと思った。いつも面白い動画を作ってくれてありがとう～日本に住んでいるハーフから(人''▽｀)

[@WolffStaedtler]

I don't understand people who denigrate others who try to be good at something. It happens in every pursuit not just language pursuits, but it's an attitude I often see in native English speakers who study other languages. Trying to learn good pronunciation isn't the same as trying to be perfect and it's not a waste of time.

[@Guyomar]

Agreed. It's a way for people who don't want to do the difficult work to absolve themselves without guilt yet still be able to brag about speaking "great" Japanese or whatever other language. They try to pull others down to their level so that no one is truly great.

[@justjoshininjapan700]

If he averages that 8 mistakes every 30 seconds, for the whole two hour duration of that video....its almost 2,000 mistakes. Ughhhhh, guess I gotta pay Dogen for that lesson plan haha : )

[@XgamersXdimensions]

just read the NHK accent dictionary. It's the best resource on Pitch accent there is

[@joegriffithsmusic]

Dogen's pitch accent lessons are well worth it if you want to learn. Even just memorising the rules from the first 30 videos (which cover all types of verbs, adjectives, nouns and even sentence pitch accent) will really improve your accent. Stuff like how most 4 mora, 2 kanji nouns and na-adjectives don't have a down step, or how 4+ mora i-adjectives like おもしろい or はずかしい will have the down step on the second to last mora. These are all super easy rules to learn that will just improve your spoken Japanese very easily as long as your willing to learn them

[@TokyoXtreme]

@@XgamersXdimensions I paid the 5000 yen for the online version of the dictionary, and I have probably used it for 30-45 minutes a day for six months. It has rewired my brain, and was a great investment. I use the audio for my Anki flashcards too.

[@ueomega]

I'm Japanese and I think it's important to set a clear goal. If you just want to communicate with Japanese people, you unironically don't have to go out of your way to be a linguistics nerd. But if you want to sound natural and completely fit in, you have to because if you're not a child anymore you can't learn everything just by immersion and you're gonna need additional information about concepts such as pitch accent. To be completely honest, listening to someone like George is like I'm listening to some dialect of Japanese I've never come across. I can totally understand what he's saying, but it always feels kind of off. But Japanese me can't point that out. 😓

[@ultracapitalistutopia3550]

Why do pitch accents matter? Try to distinguish between おじいさん(nakadaka) and おじさん (heiban). Japanese long vowel in actual conversation only extends the preceding vowel duration by ~50%, not 100%, making it not a reliable way to distinguish phrases.

[@AusJapan]

As an English native speaker that can immediately pick up on a foreigner's (English) accent, I have never once thought that it was to their detriment, and neither will a Japanese person think this about you. All it does is add to your charm. Word choice is far more important, as word choice can change the meaning of something entirely. For example, a beginner studying the language might think お世辞 means 'compliment' (positive nuance), when actually it means 'lip-service' (negative nuance). Don't get me wrong, Matt delivers a great message and I think that pitch accent is also very important, but it will not prevent you from being understood (unless you are woefully bad). One thing I do think though, is that the fastest way to fix pitch accent is though communication with Japanese speakers, on a daily basis. If you think 'I cannot communicate with Japanese speakers every day', then that leads me to my next point. Why are you trying to perfect a speech pattern that you do not live inside of? Embrace who you are, and fix things one by one as they cause communication issues, or as Japanese becomes a regular part of your life. Nobody will judge you apart from you, especially not Japanese people that have been studying English their whole lives yet cannot speak English at all.

[@happycook6737]

The background music distracts from your message.

[@Crimsontears83]

My biggest issue is the willing ignorance. The cocky nature that he is putting out about being "decent". Like why would you put so much time and money to learn an entire new language and be good with being kinda suck at it but good enough? And then confidently brag about it and tell others it's not important to be able to speak properly. Big disagree with that mindset. And it's not being a "perfectionist". Basically, I don't want to spend literal years of my life learning a language so I can stop at, and be proud of sounding like the joke foreigner characters in anime and dramas. That crap's gross lol.

[@高木正弘-e9z]

ピッチアクセントが間違ってる外人さんは多いからすぐ「あ、この人、外人だな」ってすぐ気付く。 すぐわかる。まあ「間違っている」というよりはそれは方言みたいなもんだけど。

[@shinobukomaki2112]

Pitch-accents vary according to dialects. When learners of Japanese speak Japanese, I often find myself trying to detect which dialect they are familiar with and based on. Some of them might have stayed somewhere in Japan and have friends that speak a dialect among them. I don't think it's necessary to follow a specific set of the 'correct' pitch accent, that is, a specific dialect including the standard Japanese, because all the speakers I've come across so far are quite intelligible as long as they don't try to speak very very quickly. On the other hand, you are much easier to listen to, when following a specific set of pitch-accent. So I think it's up to learners.

[@FDE-fw1hd]

Yes but knowing standard is safe I think. Because most people know it and it's much easier. I mean much easier for me to understand correct pitch

[@ウドン-m2q]

Exactly. Even native speakers (especially people who lived in several places) mix up accents all the time.

[@ronaldkcl1]

but george is an interpreter ?

[@philipdavis7521]

Basic intermediate level learner here: I can't speak from expertise, but it seems to me that the most efficient way to learn any language is to make sure you don't pick up any mistakes early that you then have to 'unlearn'. Get things right first, and you'll learn quicker and more efficiently. This is why listening and reading 'natural' Japanese is so much better than using simplified teaching guides. Dogans pitch accent courses are way beyond my personal needs but just understanding what pitch accent is and when and how to use it has been a big help for me in learning how to 'hear' Japanese and in the importance in following natural rhythms when talking. Incidentally, on the point of Japanese people and pitch, non of my Japanese friends seem to know much about pitch, but then again, how many English speakers know what a stress accent is?

[@LympyDownunder]

I really enjoy both yours and George's respectful discussion on this and I think you are both correct, the difference is in the subtlety of the learner. All learners should know the basics of pitch accent which allows them the opportunity to unlock how much focus they place on it during their studies. Knowing the basics can aide in imitation early when listening, however getting it wrong doesn't impede understanding so shouldn't be a concern as you can still be fluent without it.

[@user-nz5fn9cv3i]

I'm Japanese and I hope Matt will see this comment. I like watching your videos on language acquisition and they are extremely helpful but when It comes to pitch accent I can't disagree more. Pitch accent in Japanese isn't like the English stress or Chinese tone at all. The reason is that Japanese pitch accent greatly varies across regions in Japan, so the way George says えいご can be common in some places out of Tokyo, despite the word length, vowel and consonant which are basically the same in every part of Japan . English stress is like the opposite; where you put stress in a word "about" for instance is basically the same in English speaking countries despite the vowels that can be different across regions and countries. So the Japanese pitch accent is rather more like English vowel and it can be more flexible and variable. If you say that the way George says えいご is wrong because it's supposed to be pronounced "え↑いご(いご with higher tone", it's just like you're saying "People in Canada and UK pronounce a word "about" wrongly in its vowels" but it's obviously nonsensical. I'm sad that majority of Japanese people feel ashamed about their own non-Tokyo accents and this Tokyo-centralized view is getting dominant in Japan. I hope Japanese learners won't be so obsessed with the Tokyo pitch accent unless you aim to acquire perfect Tokyo accent. Japan is not only Tokyo or Kanto area.

[@Wizard-pw8yo]

sounds true, but even then people should stick to a certain pitch-system, while japanese learner don't go with any system but speak at random pitches. That should be more bothersome than speaking in a non-tokyo pitch system to a japanese listene?

[@gamillion7880]

Meh, I’m not super knowledgeable but I think this more or less proves the point of the video. If I was talking to someone who, for example, spoke with an cleanly American accent 75% of the time but mixed in Canadian/UK/Australian/Whatever pronounciations, it would be WEIRD, possibly CONFUSING, and for intents and purposes WRONG. Now, if I was speaking to someone who was from the Scotland and had a Scottish accent, then of course they’re not wrong. I guess what I’m saying is, consistency matters. If your going all willy nilly with the rules then it’s not really proper for ANY dialect, hm?

[@はろうむ]

それは焦点ズレまくりだろ。より"自然に聞こえる事”を目的としてるんだから。方言ごちゃ混ぜでしゃべるやつなんかいない。あと方言を恥じてるやつとか聞いたこともない。本当に日本人か？ You really Japanese? I doubt it.

[@RockChampEnglish]

exactly! I am Chinese, and when I see them rubbing against each other becoz of this, it's a joke lol people talk differently~ and that's it. just like when you talk in English, you don't have to really "study" pitches~ you just know it... and in a sentence, the pitches would vary becoz of many reasons....

[@misslaurynhill]

dialect has nothing to do with pitch accent...and even if pitch accents DID vary that differently by region, imagine someone uneducated about pitch accent says a sentence using different four jumbled up pitch accents. it's not like their dialect can be from four different regions at the same time..bffr

[@ジョシュ-k4u]

This really relates to every language when you think about it. When I hear someone speaking Spanish I can tell almost instantly that they aren’t a native speaker by their pronunciation. As you said, the message is still getting across but hearing mistakes over and over can be distracting when you’re having a long conversation.

[@WayofRamen]

Really? I live in Hawaii where we have immigrants from all areas of Asian with strong accents here but it's never really distracting or hard to have conversations. Maybe I'm just used to it since I've been around it my whole life.

[@ジョシュ-k4u]

@@WayofRamen I don’t think it’s hard to have conversations but what’s distracting is hearing a word pronounced the wrong way, it doesn’t stop me from getting what they are saying but I’m just thinking about what they said that didn’t sound natural is all. I guess what I’m saying is if you were to speak to someone who is native in your language you rarely hear a mistake in pronunciation so when you do hear it in conversation it sticks out.

[@pavelmartinez4617]

@@ジョシュ-k4u then I shouldn’t speak to anyone Japanese until I have mastered pitch accent so not to bother them with my speaking?? That makes no sense my friend. And as a fellow native Spanish speaker I am ashamed you look down on those who take the time and effort to learn our beautiful language when is not “native level” like you mentioned in your comment.

[@gyroninjamodder]

@@pavelmartinez4617 He never said anything close that. He just said that it is distracting when people make mistakes, not that he looks down on people who make mistakes. Also I am not sure where you got the idea that you have to master pronunciation before you talk with someone. Just like how you can make word choise mistakes and grammar mistakes when speaking you can also make pitch accent mistakes. When speaking a language it is inevitable that you will make a mistake.

[@ジョシュ-k4u]

@@pavelmartinez4617 I never said any of that. All I’m saying is that it’s noticeable to a native speaker when you hear a non native speak the language. Also I don’t look down on anyone learning any language, the more languages everyone speaks the more we can better understand each other instead of focusing on what makes us so different.

[@kunstderfugue]

Holy shit Matt, did you just shift the pitch on the BGM right as you're saying "If you can't perceive the subtle differences in sound, you aren't gonna be able to imitate it". That was a based move. Edit: It happens between 9:10 and 9:40 if you're interested Edit2: not so sure about this anymore

[@Ryosuke1208]

Time mark?

[@kunstderfugue]

@@Ryosuke1208 9:10 ish

[@sevvv2929]

Nah it’s just the chord that’s being played by the guitar.

[@kunstderfugue]

@@sevvv2929 I actually have it a second listen and I think I did mishear. It just would have been epic.

[@cpfc4life1505]

Yeah sorry but you’re kind of wrong here, if pitch accent is important and hard to hear otherwise ,if you don’t have a good pitch accent everyone should sound the same and not have an accent. Americans speak English but I can completely understand your accent and there isn’t a problem furthermore if a foreigner who speaks English with an accent it’s not at all hard to hear or annoying nor does it take away from the fact they actually speak English.

[@moonlitspud]

We don't have pitch accent in English though, so that's not a great comparison. English is stress-based not pitch based, and other than some solid exceptions which we are trained to expect (Americans stressing first word in compounds for example, like PEAnut butter vs peanut BUTter in English accent), the stress is relatively consistent across accents. But if you messed up the stress in most words, it wills start to sound garbled, especially when mixed in with the other elements of a foreign accent. Strong accents can be a barrier to understanding anyway, even outside of pitch. We are very used to American accents in the UK due to films and TV, but I know a lot of Americans who can't watch the original version of the Office without subtitles.

[@cpfc4life1505]

@@moonlitspud yet pitches differ from region to region so in the end it doesn’t matter because it’s going to be wrong in some parts of Japan it’s going to be wrong if a foreigner says it. My main point is that even from English speaking countries it doesn’t matter To much and if it did Americans and Canadians wouldn’t speak with an accent over the years or change the way things are said or spelled.

[@moonlitspud]

@@cpfc4life1505 Yes but if you are consistent in that version, you will just sound like you are from that region. It's not the same as picking a totally random pitch for every single word. In English speaking countries it certainly can matter more than you say. Drop an average American into Aberdeen and see how well he can understand people talking in a pub.

[@cpfc4life1505]

@@moonlitspud why do you NEED to sound like you’re from a region? It’s no different than a Japanese person picking an accent to sound like when speaking English, American or English? Australian?

[@moonlitspud]

@@cpfc4life1505 I didn't say you do need to at all. To sound like you are from a specific region you'd need all of those pitch accents rules to line up, not just get them wrong all the time. Again, if you mix and match every single word (because you aren't aware of it), it can be very distracting for the listener (just like if a foreigner speaking English mis-stressed every single word - which no English accent does, which varies mostly by open vowel sound).