Impressive material removal - Tormach PCNC440

[@OneMinuteWorkbench]

I really enjoyed that video! I’m having a thought time finding videos that show how long it truly takes for the 440 to make a part, and I think this video might be the best out there. Keep up the good work!

[@daleksw]

Glad you enjoyed it! They're game little machines and sometimes it's surprising just how much you can do with them. An extra 10hp would be nice, but the 3/4hp it has can go a long way.

[@advil000]

Honestly, I think you found a good working max for that cut. Those bulky shear hog cuts sounded pretty good. It had good cut and the spindle was only just hinting that it might bog down soon.

[@jodyolivent8481]

That 440 is doing some work. Love the upgrades!

[@daleksw]

Yeah, they really are much more capable than you'd think.

[@jodyolivent8481]

@@daleksw especially for the price. The mill, pdb, and controller come to $7850, that and a few tools and you are making parts. You can always build a stand and Enclosure.

[@daleksw]

Yes, and it was a lot cheaper 18 months ago when I got mine. I added the chip tray but mad my own enclosure. The whole thing is sitting on a very sturdy wooden bench. PDB is an absolute essential, I didn't buy it originally but only lasted without it a month or so!

[@lpfreak1708]

That ATC and probe deserve a video!

[@daleksw]

Thank you very much - glad you like them! The ATC is done in Mach3, so unlikely to build any more as PathPilot's ATC code is difficult to alter. The probe though is a different story and I can convert either the Tormach passive probe or the ITTP. There's info on the conversions at xoomspeed.com/CNC/CncProducts.htm The probing routines to integrate Fusion's probing support with PathPilot are now shipped with PathPilot as standard.

[@murrayedington]

Useful learning there. It's helpful to estimate (or measure) what % of spindle power is required for the heavy roughing operations - I suspect most operators rarely push their machines. The machining calculators for iOS etc often include spindle power and hopefully Fusion will soon implement it. What's your final (ball) tool? Looks like an insert tool, possibly a BAP300 type with a large radius APMT type insert? My feeling with slotting-type insert cutters is that the MMR struggles to match solid tooling due to the fewer teeth and shorter edge length, which is why my insert cutters rarely get much use. I like the V7 carbide tools from YG-1 (Cutwel) which can achieve shocking MMRs in steel and the Alu Power range for loominum.

[@daleksw]

Glad you spotted the odd ball mill. It's an ISCAR multi-master - see www.iscar.com/eCatalog/item.aspx?cat=5603250&fnum=1417&mapp=it&app=0&GFSTYP=M I've used YG-1's K2 mills for steel (also from Cutwell) but haven't stretched to the V7s yet. For spindle powers, I check most of my cuts with HSMAdvisor. If you believe it, the 1.5mm WoC I intended would have been 65% spindle power. 4mm WoC should be out of the question for a 440. It rates it at 0.8kW/1hp

[@LastBastionLabs]

Nicly done. Thank you for the feeds and speeds. I also have a 440.

[@daleksw]

Thanks. If you're interested, you can download the model and CAM from a360.co/30rJMDI Choose Fusion 360 archive, then you should be able to load it into your own Fusion project. A standard 440 won't do the tapping, but probing routines I did to support Fusion's probing operation are in the latest versions of PathPilot. You should be able to see details of all the tooling used and how the model/CAM was done

[@jonathonwood4088]

I'd love to see more on your ATC!

[@daleksw]

Glad you like it! There's a Facebook group for the ATC at facebook.com/groups/1680230705518912 Fusion model (including CAM), the controller and some difficult to source parts are available from shop.xoomspeed.com/collections/atc-kits

[@a154james]

What’s that indexable endmill you’re using!?

[@daleksw]

It's one of these. Decent rougher, but very loud and not very good for side finish. www.shars.com/products/indexable-cutting/indexable-milling/7-8-90-degree-indexable-end-mill-oal-4-1-2-apkt-insert

[@matthewwood6973]

Two questions, how the DIY toolchanger, and I didn't think the 440 was capable of tapping at all.

[@daleksw]

Hi Matthew. There's more info on the toolchanger at xoomspeed.com/CNC/atc/atccontroller.htm The 440's spindle controller does support reversing, it's just that the direction input isn't connected. If you add a USB I/O card (mine or Tormach's) you can hook up that signal. You still need some software support to do tapping as PathPilot won't know what's going on, but there's info on how I did it at the bottom of this page. xoomspeed.com/CNC/FusionPostProcessor.htm If you read the rest of that page, you'll see my Fusion 360 post processor has quite a few features not supported by the standard one.

[@jackcurran821]

Hey David. I was under the impression (from the Tormach folks) that the 440 couldn’t tap because the spindle can’t reverse. Did I see you tap that hole? If so would like to know how you did it. Thanks very much.

[@daleksw]

Tormach are telling you the truth - mostly. The motor controller can reverse and it has a forward/reverse terminal. The trouble is the MX3660 controller inside the wiring cabinet has no spare outputs to connect to it! There are only 4 outputs and they control spindle on/off, coolant on/off and 2 are used for step and direction on the 4th axis. What you need is a USB I/O board (Tormach's or the one I sell shop.xoomspeed.com/collections/cnc-accessories/products/usb-i-o-board) and then a copy of my free Fusion post-processor xoomspeed.com/CNC/FusionPostProcessor.htm The I/O card gets mounted inside the wiring cabinet and one output is used to drive the forward/reverse terminal on the motor drive. Then my post-processor can generate the code to use the I/O board to control direction instead of the usual M3/M4. There's some brief info of the settings required at the very bottom of the download page. You still need a tension/compression tap holder but you can tap at 500 rpm on the low ratio up to M5x0.8 in alloy or M4x0.7 in steel. If you'd like to give it a try, I'll be glad to help.

[@jackcurran821]

@@daleksw Fabulous. And thank you for the comprehensive solution. After purchasing my 440 I learned that as configured it couldn't manage the tension/compression head and have been looking for a workaround since. Just getting started on my CNC journey (I'm a master woodworker curious about new things) and am outfitting with elements I'm sure I'll need to simplify the transition. Thanks again. Glad I stumbled on your channel.

[@MotoBuilds]

Honestly doesn't sound bad. I'd probably run it 90 percent of that from now on

[@MaquinerosCNC]

why dont use the facemill directly when you flip the part?

[@daleksw]

There's quite a big overhang on the material being removed. If you just use the facemill, there's chance as it gets thin and starts to flex that a lump of material will catch on the tool and get torn off. That can damage the top of the part, as well as the facemill's inserts and it's potentially dangerous if lumps get torn off and thrown about. On this mill the removal rates of the 2 tools are pretty similar, both being limited by the available spindle power.

[@rustysena2638]

Do you mind telling what kind of coolant system and which coolant you're using? I'm using a Fog Buster with Durakut. Works ok but it's very oily which I guess is ok but sometimes it heats up and gets smoky.

[@daleksw]

No problem. The coolant's Rocol Multisol diluted 20:1. See uk.rs-online.com/web/p/cutting-fluids/3888500/ For the spray system, check amazon.co.uk and search for 'OriGlam Mist Coolant Lubrication Spray System'. Sorry, but if I copy and paste the link, there's some special characters that don't copy/paste properly! I've been using this for 18 months now and the only thing I'd complain about is the needle valve adjustment of the coolant flow is very sensitive. The venturi suction is so strong, the needle is almost closed so a very small movement goes from no coolant at all to too much. It can be difficult to find the happy medium and keep it there for long, unattended periods. The coolant obviously is oily, but it doesn't make a lot of mess and washes off easily with plain water.

[@thewyliestcoyote]

Nice tool changer and wireless probing. Any information on how you did them? I just got a 440 and would be interested in giving it a try.

[@daleksw]

Thanks. Tool changer is strictly Mach3 - mainly because PathPilot is just too closed to modify the tool changer code easily. If you're interested though, you can see how it's built at a360.co/2ELc8iL My Mach3 installation uses an Ethernet Smoothstepper. I use the 1st port of that to connect to the normal mill electronics and the 2nd port to connect to stepper drivers and other I/O mounted inside the tool changer cabinet. The wireless probe conversion works on either the Tormach passive probe or the ITTP and is perfectly at home on either PathPilot or Mach3. Details of how the conversion is done are at xoomspeed.com/CNC/wirelessprobe.htm. It could be easily modified to convert any other passive probe if you wanted. It also lets you use an electronic tool setter simultaneously with the probe. I have the probing routines integrated with Fusion 360 and this is available for either Mach3 or PathPilot. The PP version is now bundled with the current PathPilot distribution. You'll find the custom Fusion post and a readme in the user subroutines folder.

[@thewyliestcoyote]

@@daleksw Thats for the information. After I get my machine on a stand I will give some of that a try.

[@daleksw]

@@thewyliestcoyote No problem. Get in touch when you're ready.

[@thewyliestcoyote]

@@daleksw BTW why did you end up using Mach3 over just LinuxCNC out of curiosity? Was there is a technical reason or just personal preference? My hour or so of playing with my machine I am starting to really like PathPilot UI but the lack of ability to change things is concerning me. So I am considering writing a new UI for LinuxCNC that is closer to PathPilot but can be extended or modified. For my machine I have a bunch of automation stuff that I want to add but do not see a way that I can do it with PathPilot.

[@daleksw]

Firstly, I already had a lathe that I'd converted to CNC using Mach3. Second, I had a spare ethernet smoothstepper which is exactly what you need to convert a Tormach. Thirdly, I make a living developing industrial automation software based on PCs. the last thing I need in my life is something tied to Linux. The only thing I like about LinuxCNC is the conditionals supported in g-code. That's the reason the Fusion probing routines run quicker and more smoothly in PP than Mach3. After that it's downhill fast for LinuxCNC. It's way too complex and delivers nothing in return. Mach3's screen editor and built in VB interpreter - with source level debugger - may not be exactly pretty, but they leave LinuxCNC in the dust when it comes to speed and ease of customisation.

[@selfdefensetactical5279]

What probing tool is used in the video?

[@daleksw]

The probe is a Tormach passive probe tormach.com/passive-probe-probe-only-50355.html converted to wireless operation with my wireless kit shop.xoomspeed.com/collections/cnc-accessories/products/wireless-probe-kit The probing operations (and the rest of the CAM) in the video were programmed using Fusion 360 and output using my post-processor xoomspeed.com/CNC/FusionPostProcessor.htm which supports all the WCS probing modes in Fusion.

[@CristianCvitanic]

Hi David ! I purchased the tool but can't seem to find aluminum specific inserts, will any APKT or APMT 1003 work ?

[@daleksw]

Hi Cristian., yes any apkt 1003 style insert will be fine. Here's a link to the ones I bought www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10x-Apkt-1003alu-K10-to-the-Milling-for-Aluminium-Plastic-Poliert-geschliffen/112762585257 Be a little careful the first time you use the tool. Mine cuts a bit bigger than the 7/8" nominal size. I have it set at 22.29mm in my Fusion library - roughly 2 thou oversize.

[@CristianCvitanic]

@@daleksw Thanks ! How about the TTS Collar ? Looks simple enough as for milling one in the 440. Reason I ask is that it'll take forever if I order it from Tormach. Otherwise, I could have one machined locally on a lathe.

[@daleksw]

@@CristianCvitanic Don't see any reason why you shouldn't have your own collar made. The Tormach one is supposed to be a press fit, but these tools are slightly undersize, so I had to fit a pin through the shank anyway. I think you can see the pin below the collar at the tool changes.

[@CristianCvitanic]

@@daleksw so I could machine a tight fit ring in aluminum and warm it up, maybe even freeze the tool to put them together. Also, if I'm right, the tormach ring is glued with epoxy.

[@daleksw]

@@CristianCvitanic I wouldn't do it in alloy. The forces when the R8 collet pulls up are pretty big and not everyone's happy with the strength of steel once you make the atc groove. Epoxy only really works if the collar is sitting on a shoulder that's already there. I tried it with a plain shank tool and the result was a tool that got a thou or two shorter each time it was used.

[@nick-k7k]

how can a 500w motor manage this?

[@daleksw]

I think 500W is a bit pessimistic. The rating on the motor is 800W and the load meter I have on the machine's supply showed 850W for the whole machine while that was running. Still a lot of metal to remove with just a little power!

[@nick-k7k]

@@daleksw thank you for the info, maybe they changed the motor because on the site is listed as 0.54 kw if I'm not wrong. Amazing video anyway, thank you

[@mikespg]

I want to see how good it cuts into the vise.

[@CristianCvitanic]

Hi David! Did you settle at a definitive recipe for this tool? I'd like to start using it and was wondering if you'd rather go for more WOC or DOC instead.

[@daleksw]

Hi, I do run it a little harder still these days. Go to recipe is 7500rpm, 2250 mm/min feed (0.1mm/tooth). 6mm DoC and 2.5mm WoC gives a removal rate of a fraction over 2 cu in/min - enough for me. I did try going deeper and shallower, but I started getting some vibration so stuck with these numbers. Might have been the machine but equally could just have been the fixture not rigid enough.

[@CristianCvitanic]

@@daleksw wow... Those are pretty good numbers. Will give them a try, thanks!