Improve at BJJ Faster With THIS Method of Learning ft. Greg Souders

[@faradaystpete5683]

Ecological models have been around since the late 70’s (Bronfenbrenner). We use it all the time in public health and clinical psychology where I work. He just focuses on applying it to skill of movement. With that in mind, it’s really interesting because both populations and individuals have an ecological condition that is specific to them (different genetics, body types, cognitive capability, strength/conditioning, varying mental health, varying experience, varying emotional intelligence… and the list goes on forever seemingly). The invariabilities he talks about is just the quickest way to teach a room full of people the same movement skill when all of them have a unique ecological condition that they are faced with constantly. To truly utilize the full power of the ecological model, you would have to work with each athlete individually and address as much as you possibly can in each of their nested hierarchies, not just how they understand the skill. What you focus on with the individual typically (speaking from how it’s applied in a medical and addiction counseling setting) is based off of what you find is the greatest barrier to behavior change (or skill development in this case). We usually look for a combination of one major environmental barrier to change along with one major attitude/perceptional change to address simultaneously to have the greatest amount of impact. So cool to see someone finding a way to apply this to jiu jitsu.

[@olihips5831]

This is really interesting. Do you have any accessible reading you would recommend?

[@gentleartsnz]

@@olihips5831 Rob Gray - 'How we learn to move' & 'Learning to optimise movement' are a good start in this context.

[@BeGrizzlyStrong]

This is the best Ive heard Greg present his ideas. Maybe it is because Mark isn't a BJJ guy and he is in person has made him less confrontational and arrogant in how he comes across.

[@MMARavid]

100%

[@peteryozell7325]

He’s mentioned before that he’s been getting training on how to portrait and express the ecological approach better in layman terms.

[@peteryozell7325]

He’s mentioned before that he’s been getting training on how to portrait and express the ecological approach better in layman terms.

[@BeGrizzlyStrong]

@peteryozell7325 that is good. I think there is a lot to offer but he is still wrapping his head around it and has a terrible habit of treating people like they are stupid if they don't just accept something he can't fully articulate without question.

[@peteryozell7325]

⁠@@BeGrizzlyStrongyou and him are both right. He treats people like they are stupid and that definitely pushes people away from listening to him and trying the ecological approach. But the people are indeed very fucking stupid, and can’t understand that the ecological approach has nothing to do with Jiu Jitsu, it has to do with how humans learn, especially how they learn movement. If his goal is to get more people trying the ecological approach, then he whole change his approach to delivering the information. If his goal is simply to make his students better, it doesn’t matter how he treats stupid people.

[@TheMartialWay]

The way of developing tasked based games at 1:03:07 was brilliant! I mean, the whole podcast was, but this particularly for me.

[@briantanzer5599]

He has a very interesting approach. For those of us who study and practice jiujitsu you have to have an open mind. There isn't one way to learn anything, and that includes jiujitsu.

[@buildingpickleball]

Great episode. This isn’t a BJJ episode. It’s an episode on learning, teaching, and coaching. History and breakdown on BJJ. Full of valuable information. The feelings hurt by the way he talks is hilarious. If the information is effective and well based, then who cares. Nice perm.

[@eclipsez0r]

IT'S NOT A PERM

[@razzle-dazzle]

Greg makes sense especially if you’ve read “How we learn to move” by Rob Gray. I wish someone else could distill it down further to laymen terms because students who aren’t doing this approach are completely missing out.

[@hunterholistichealth]

Thanks for the recommendation 👍🏼

[@baronq37]

I don’t do jiu jitsu and I found this inspiring from a teaching perspective. Very inspiring.

[@Ginga6]

Jujutsu and jiu-jitsu are etymologically the same word no need to differentiate. Judo as created by Kano was “gentle” because it stripped out the “lethal” techniques of Jujutsu (Jiu-Jitsu) samurai arts, and left only those that could be practiced in randori (“free play”). Kano followed the ecological approach! And BJJ itself has direct lineage to Judo. Judo also has ground technique called Newaza, a lot of which is not emphasized in Olympic Judo as the art grew to focus on throws (tachiwaza). Meanwhile what was practiced in Brazil was Judo Newaza applied to prizefighting over several generations. Kata and formulaic drilling is not without merit and also an efficient business model, but a mixture of it and “task-based games” makes the most sense to me. I think the real weakness is pedagogical - how we are taught / learn - which Souders knows, some learn by intuition some need direct guidance. Glad someone as cerebral as him is thinking seriously about this, and not surprised the hate he receives. It’s antithetical to the business model of those who have a vested interest in keeping things cookie-cutter and not reliant on competent instructors alone.

[@builtbydima]

Great podcast and great to see Greg on a bigger platform! Would love to listen to him and Danaher discuss the ecological approach. Greg, if you're reading this: You mentioned that people trying to do the ecological approach on their own or in their schools should really dig into the science and learn how to structure practice. But what about white or blue belts, who can learn the science behind the ecological approach by reading the books, but their depth of knowledge in BJJ is not so deep that they could for example figure out what are the things in BJJ that never change, like your example about getting to the hips, that you need to pass the knees and feet first. Basically what I'm trying to ask, do you have to be good at BJJ (or have a lot of deep knowledge) and combine that with the ecological approach to design practice the right way? I am currently a bluebelt and I'm super into the ecological approach, but for now I just copy the games on your instagram/youtube and I kind of lack the confidence to design my own games. Thanks coach!

[@Luc-1991]

I'm a white belt that's doing this with another white belt at home and i see massive progress in the open mat days at the gym. we're currently focusing mainly on pinning/escaping in different positions. once we're competent enough in specific positions we're trying to isolate limbs or transition to different positions when we're in top position and escaping in bottom position. we currently can't do much guarded training because my training buddy is injured in his hip. for standing we mostly play a game where you win if you get a guillotine, can lift the opponent's leg above your own hip or get on your opponent's back with chest-to-back contact. we try to not take each other completely down because we're training on kickboxing mats and it takes a lot of energy which we rather spend on getting in the right position to take each other down rather than actually take each other down. either way this will be much better if you at a higher level in the sport, but if someone like me who is 2 years in the sport can make massive improvements, you should be able to do it too. watching a lot of grappling matches helps a lot too and not only matches in bjj but also in sports like judo, wrestling, and sambo. and definitely buy those books Greg is mentioning. i hope this helps.

[@builtbydima]

@@Luc-1991 thanks a lot man!

[@l.em.t3819]

Kit Dale was talking about this kind of approach an it took him to black belt in 3 years, but Greg have the academic knowledge to explain it in depth, Something really cool!!!

[@benkelly7182]

Having names for movements and positions really helps when coaching an athlete during a match.

[@MartialRoller-jd2hp]

This is such a genius insight here. 45:00 "The researcher is trying to figure out what the f is happening in the world. The coach is trying to figure out what the f is happening with his athlete. And the athlete is trying to figure out what the f am i doing!"

[@donnuyen9858]

Is there an instructional or book that can be purchased that outlines the different games standard uses for us to recreate this approach in “the garage”?

[@blim2020]

Dope episode

[@michaelbruce3773]

I don't doubt this is an efficient system. But did he say min 8 X 10 minute rounds seven times a week? With that volume, I'm not sure it would matter how you teach. You're going to get damn good.

[@HapyyTheCat]

Yikes that’s a lot of longggggggggg rounds.

[@lordad]

Especially with the insane quality online instructionals on BJJFanatics have nowadays.... Once you past a certain level you need to learn from online instructionals anyways since there is no benefit for a purple belt being in a class with tons of white and blue where an armbar is shown >-

[@cinoss5]

I think injury would be one of the reason people don't do sparring all the time. Adding constraint to the live practice seems to reduce injury, in addition to keep solving smaller problem instead of memorizing someone else's solution.

[@TC-nh4uh]

Maybe. I know people who do that but they don’t have any type of system and they still kinda suck. However, I do agree that’s the way to go. That’s how I came up basically just rolling for 2 hrs a day. I was very specific on what I wanted to work tho. I recently started again after a ten year break. I’m in BFE so the only place available teaches day one moves, then does four or five, two minute rounds and half the people just sit around. It’s sad how not-good they are. Im struggling because im technically a “white belt” (mostly no gi and switched gyms a lot, so never got promoted) Anyway it’s hard to get people to roll with me because I can easily beat the brown belts who are twice my size. At my old gym who trained like this guy recommends, there was no way I could tap even the purple belts.

[@eclipsez0r]

The Ryan Long of jiu jitsu

[@duenasramon]

Will you guys be posting the seminar video Greg did at Warrior Z on KZbin?

[@leonardocorrea3500]

I’ve watching Greg for the last year and so. I can sense a better sense of collaboration and non aggressive ways to expose his ideas. He even recently said he wants to build a network of people using ecological dynamics so we help each other. I m glad to see that change. If I could I would recommend Greg a book called NVC: non violent communication.

[@sheldonwhalen4779]

Fire Episode🔥

[@TheMartialWay]

Amazing!

[@zapkif]

Greg, Greg, he's our man, if he can't coach you no one can!

[@LatimusChadimus]

We still get a Pennysaver in PA

[@MartialRoller-jd2hp]

How do you save a penny in PA? Lol

[@allthingsprimal1354]

You know what I mean

[@eltonblack9421]

Biomechanical Principle Approach to BJJ.. As opposed to Technique Based Approach. That's the learning paradigm. The method however remains to be cooperative drilling followed by progressive levels of uncooperative sparring. Kano did not get rid of kata! He created it to preserve the most efficient biomechanical movement patterns.

[@gregsouders9648]

You missed the point…

[@jameswilsonmusic7749]

We have a really low injury rate at our gym and we do minimum 8x10 rounds per day Sure

[@redshot1015]

Honestly No one way is best IDC what anyone says except the top teams in the world.. Which is a good MIX .. of drilling and LIVE .. especialy if ur a fulltime grappler MIX IT UP!!! and then find whats best for everyperson.. EVERYONE IS DIFFERENT

[@Mark-mu2or]

Fantastic

[@opaca512]

Sounds very similar to Russian ‘play’ wrestling training.

[@BeGrizzlyStrong]

Some links in the notes to the books he mentioned would be nice. Went to the notes and not sure what a penis pump has to do with this.

[@h2tym]

1:40:20

[@Luc-1991]

how we lear to move learning to optimize movement introduction to ecological psychology nonlinear pedagogy in skill acquisition constrains led approach

[@BeGrizzlyStrong]

@@Luc-1991 assuming these are all titles?

[@TheSpencerCooper]

Kano did not get rid of kata. Kata was, and is still, a part of Judo. There are multiple.

[@gregsouders9648]

Read, “Mind Over Muscle”

[@gregsouders9648]

I had a few people reach out to me after making this statement. Let me be more clear on what I was trying to convey. Kano believed that all of our actions should have a purpose. He believed Judo could be used not only as a sport but as a physical education tool. He made a clear distinction between things that were done for physical practice and for sport. He spoke about using kata (form) as an educational tool to help teach a principal of a technique but to best learn how to throw and to discover the nuances of a technique you had to use randori (free practice).

[@difficult_aardvark]

​@gregsouders9648 have you ever considered that you might just be wrong about something? Your ego and narcissism make you very difficult to listen to, even though you are often conveying quality information.

[@difficult_aardvark]

When he dismisses situational training, he is just ignoring the fact that people have been training how he does for decades. He is doing a better job of explaining it in more detail for people who aren't natural athletes, but most people pick this up intuitively. He's a good coach, he just needs to drop the narcissism.

[@timothycarey3883]

There is something to what he is saying, but drilling is required to learn the most effective moves and combos, drilling the move 500 times is not needed tho, drilling the move enough to understand the basic concept is enough usually a few minutes is good, showing variations and different scenarios is also important, id say ideally 10 percent drills 20 percent positional and situational sparring and 70 percent open sparring is key.

[@cysonferguson2123]

You say, ‘drilling enough to understand the basic concept,’ but drilling completely leaves out the basic concepts, it’s only doing a sequence of movements. The basic concepts are invariant, so if you understand them, there’s no need to do a static drill ever again. The Jiu-Jitsu player is constantly in a perception-action cycle. Drilling is action without perception. In my training, I try to be geared towards the effect of my actions, not towards how my actions look.

[@timothycarey3883]

@@cysonferguson2123 there are many movements that are fundamentaly needed to perform certain submissions or sweeps or passes that are proven effective and proven a good way and a bad way to execute. If i just tell a beginer to sweep the top guy with only goal to get on top and no drilling or practice of a good movement to do so they will struggle compared to someone i show a half guard or butterfly sweep. Static drills are needed to learn any move. You dont have to make it look picture perfect but the key elements for any finish must by practiced or you beat high level guys.

[@timothycarey3883]

@@cysonferguson2123 if your drilling leaves out basic concepts then you arent teaching correctly, when i teach a move i make sure my students understand to reasons the move works, the most common escapes, and how we minimize the common and high percentage escapes. The basic concepts should always be emphasized, on top you are taking space away always creating pressure, on bottom you are always framing, moving, creating space and attacking. Concepts mean nothing without proper execution of movement and being able to perform moves mean nothing if you dont understand the concepts of why you are doing the move. Drilling teaches the mechanics, rolling is where you implement them, and coaching and troubleshooting is how you put all of it together.

[@cysonferguson2123]

@@timothycarey3883 I think we agree on a lot , I also think if you saw a beginner doing a constrains based guard passing game , you be surprised by their movements , ex: hitting leg-drags & toreandos without ever drilling them and maybe only seeing an example during the game explanation but never explicitly told how. The constraints and tasks are designed to naturally bring out these fundamental movements.

[@timothycarey3883]

@@cysonferguson2123 the problem with naturaly bringing out the movements is most of the new students especially the unathletic ones do all kinds of garbage moves and movements, which is just unproductive mat time and makes bad habits. Spending just a short time, like 5 to 10 minutes drilling the correct motion for a toreando or leg drag and then doing some situational or constain based live drills or rolling nets better results sooner and get newer guys doing correct movements sooner in their journey.

[@MoistGranny-fr5hb]

It’s just positional drilling

[@jameswilsonmusic7749]

'I like to ask lots of questions, I don't like to get lots of answers. We're a culture obsessed with answers... I just see things a different way" Ok dude.

[@umeda26]

This is how things first got invented by trying things out writing them down and then naming them so our forefathers and ancestors have already done this so now we got references and ways to do it so we don't have to screw around twisting arms trying to figure things out...

[@bigg_shaw]

No books Greg said are listed... just a bunch of ads lol

[@cysonferguson2123]

What books can’t you find ? “How we learn to move “ and “Learning to Optimize Movement” are both on amazon , Apple Books and audible.

[@LatimusChadimus]

🤙🤙

[@dimpap9659]

I think that people are afraid of losing their income because, poeple suddenly understand that intuctionals are completely pointless and you don't need a trainer to constantly show you new techniques. This makes the foundation of Bjj as a business very fragile. That's why these people are trying to fire from all sides against people like Greg. I don't know anyone here in Germany that i know, who is in favor of growth in Bjj and says the ecological approach isn't even worth taking a look at.

[@DarkArtsDeepDive]

Who’s saying instructional are pointless? Instructional’s have been the biggest game changer to me and many others like me.

[@stanleythompson3848]

This guy came up through brown belt 😂. Not hard to find intuition when you've trained for 9-years!

[@jeffdbmb]

this guy talks like frank mir

[@davidc.9758]

👍🏼

[@peekaboojujitsoo525]

people dont understand Greg because they lack the brains or critical thinking to figure out that what he's doing is not some marketing bullshit. He's not adding shit but rather breaking things down to its essence. A typical bjj coach is going to "instruct" the student a million ways how to get from point a to b....but what greg is doing is saying to the student hey you want to get to point b, do it anyway you can think of just try not to violate these concepts and principles while doing so.

[@ryanthompson3446]

Have been seeing a few bjj influencers recently ripping off ecological games and purposely not using any of the terms, hilarious 😂 they are def trying to pretend they came up with it all by themselves.

[@Johnnygstring]

This man could talk a glass eye to sleep, Kit Dale gives a much clearer explanation of organic learning in bjj.

[@like2ROLL]

Nah

[@gregsouders9648]

I agree, I can absolutely be boring. However, I really wish I knew what it was like to be stupid.

[@lukefarrell3147]

@@gregsouders9648nah this podcast was great! thanks for all the information, i listened to the whole thing 🤝🏼🔥

[@peekaboojujitsoo525]

@@gregsouders9648 LMAO

[@ex0ja]

​@@gregsouders9648 does Kit teach the same thing as you or is it different in some way?

[@House_of_Zodd]

Lloyd is a weird dude

[@kane6529]

Mark please don’t do BJJ this show is one step away from being a martial arts podcast 😅 love listening to you guys but couldn’t care less about BJJ

[@bigdaddygucciabg836]

Bjj takes a while to learn and master. Listen to the podcast and take the tips for anything else in life that takes a while and is hard

[@goobtron]

You don't have to listen

[@StayCool302]

Just skip the episode dude 😂😂😂

[@BeGrizzlyStrong]

Thousands of podcasts and you're butthurt about this one? Don't watch it. Or watch it and see where else you can apply it in life.

[@like2ROLL]

I do jiu jitsu but the first guys I heard talking about self organization and degrees of freedom with movement was from barbell medicine.