Improving HRV and RHR: Which Factors Are Important?

[@maestroharmony343]

My overnight HRV significantly depends on how late I ate before sleep. If I fast during the day, HRV is very high, if I eat before 4 pm, it's almost that high, if I eat till around 8pm, then it depends how much I ate, HRV is average, and if I eat later or drink alcohol, HRV is very low.

[@csgofordummies1239]

I know others that say the same, the issue is that i generally exercise from 5-7pm (sports) sometimes as late as 8pm. I dont think its good to eat dinner at 4PM and then exercise over 1k calories burned and go to bed with nothing, but not educated enough on that topic to know if its bad and will result in bad long term recovery and muscle synthesis or not

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

@@csgofordummies1239 That raises the interesting question of, when is the optimal time to exercise? In your case, a wearable that measures HRV and RHR not a few hours later, during sleep (like WHOOP), but midday might be best for tracking long-term changes.

[@csgofordummies1239]

@@conqueragingordietrying123 THe problem is that is simply the time I cant change it, this isnt me just going to the gym, this is me playing sports with others and thats the time it happens so I cant exactly move it. But yes I use an Apple watch (airplane mode) and two Oura Rings to track (gen 2 and Gen 3)

[@jamesgilmore8192]

@@csgofordummies1239 Not having protein after your sport is definitely suboptimal. Sports associations are generally trying to move games earlier for this and other reasons.

[@Pluvo2for1]

Thank you for the wake up call on body weight.

[@whatthefunction9140]

I lift weights every day. 2 hours intense workouts. My hrv averages 75 and rhr is 42. 200 lbs 12 pbf. Been doing this for almost 2 years. My hrh and hrv were really bad before. I agree it can be hard on the body if you over train but I also think the body will meet the challenge. Your numbers are really good. Don't let chasing a better chart hinder your excersize.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

I've tried to push above the ADHR, but almost always, it's chronically bad for HRV and RHR. The idea that the body will always adapt, no matter the stress level, isn't true in my case. Maybe it's a chronological age issue, but I don't have data in my 20s to compare. That said, maybe there are other factors that limit my physiology to tolerate an increased exercise workload, and I'm on the trail of evaluating that, too.

[@t2smith]

I've found that sleep has a huge impact on my HRV and has a milder effect on my RHR. I probably average HRV of 59 with more than 8 hours of sleep and about 50 with less than 7. I'll have to get my numbers in a spreadsheet and see what some of the correlations are.

[@isleter88]

Conversely, many Sleep apps rely heavily on random HRV for their algorithms to determine sleep qualities and readiness scores

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Sleep is also a potential variable in the HRV-RHR equation, I'll check out the correlations and likely post a short video...

[@t2smith]

@@conqueragingordietrying123 I would check daily and weekly correlations. There may be some cumulative effect since my HRV-RHR hit 63-45 after I'd been off work 9 days and I'd been sleeping 8+ hours most of those days.

[@t2smith]

@conqueragingordietrying1797 The more I think about it, sleep probably won't correlate to HRV as much long term as short term. Sleep probably has more to do with whether you end up closer to the top or bottom of your current baseline day to day. My current HRV baseline through Garmin is 48-59 and my average resting HR is 50. When I had been off work for 9 days and getting over 8 hours of sleep most those days my HRV-RHR was 63-45. If your sleep hasn't changed much in two years but your HRV baseline is 19 higher there may not be much of a correlation if you use the last two years of data.

[@barrie888]

interesting to get some data on overtraining , i actually overtrained for a series of full marathons years ago , crazy runs up a mountain behind my work place full tilt in my lunch hour etc etc on top circuits etc etc, Well gave myself Atrial fibrillation and an enlarged left atrium as a result. recovered now

[@6681096]

Your decrease in weight maybe the overwhelming reason for your improved HRV and RHR.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Definitely possible!

[@bhut1571]

As usual fascinating. Interesting to maybe correlate the product of average heartrate, and some sleep variable for the two prior days to HRV and RHR.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Yep, looking at sleep correlations is on the to-do list!

[@jamesgilmore8192]

It would be worth fitting two extra models: HRV~BW+ADHR and HRV~BW+ADHR+RHR, and looking to see if there are any factors that explain the residuals, such as day of week, food intake, sleep etc.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Thanks James, yep on those analyses. Also, Room temp and/or humidity might be involved.

[@darrenparis8314]

What is your eating window duration? How many meals? Do you snack? Have you found negative correlations with snacking?

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

It varies depending on the work schedule, but 3d/week, it's a short window (5-730AM, fasted from 730AM - 3PM, then a relatively smaller amount at 3PM, fasted until bedtime (8-9PM). On the other days, generally from 5AM - 1PM (8h) window

[@bevnae]

@@conqueragingordietrying123how do you manage to not be hungry by bed time eating that early and not wake up from low glycogen in the middle of the night?

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

@@bevnae I'm a volume eater, which helps with satiety, and almost never being hungry before bedtime. Fiber intake can increase GLP-1, which could be a part of the story.

[@ccamire]

Very interesting analysis. Now that you have lots of data, you can draw some conclusions. I have also seen the same relationships. However i am not focused on HRV which i believed is a short term marker, not a longevity. I am focused on improving my Vo2 max and grip strength. Like Siim and many others have stated, Vo2 max is a very good longevity marker and i need more than 4 sessions per week of different intensity to keep it at high levels. So i still have a low HR like you, but i would argue that Vo2 max is better than HRV. Good luck

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

That's ok @ccamire, we need differing views from many people in this space! I agree that VO2 max and strength are important markers of longevity, but I also include HRV and RHR in that equation, and rather than aiming for the highest possible VO@max and strength, I'm looking for the above-average values that also optimize HRV and RHR.

[@abdelilahbenahmed4350]

​​@@conqueragingordietrying123absolutely, sometimes the best is the enemy of the good and maybe as we age overtraining could be detrimental. So maybe we have to listen to our body and never forget to exercise whenever we have the energy and the mood to do it.

[@markemdee7311]

If a person like to exercise that's a benefit; if not, then less exercise saves time to enjoy other things.

[@bestdoom1236]

Thank you, Mike. How do you calculate the index of daily physical activity?

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Hi @bestdoom1236, WHOOP calculates it automatically...

[@bestdoom1236]

@@conqueragingordietrying123 So I assume that is the "Daily Strain" measure... thanks!

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

@@bestdoom1236 Nope, it's not the Strain measure...

[@MaxwellPietsch]

When I record my heart rate while walking using both the Whoop and a Polar chest strap, my HR will go to 150bpm for ten minutes without me changing my pace, whereas the Polar chest strap shows no change in HR. Do you have this same experience with Whoop? I might ask for a replacement device... It still seems pretty accurate when it comes to sleep but this makes me doubt the HR tracking.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Hey Max, the Polar chest strap will be the most accurate within that context. It's a limitation for WHOOP and other wrist-based wearables to comparatively underestimate HR during activity. At rest, WHOOP is pretty good, as its recorded value is almost always exactly the same as manually palpated, at least when I do it.

[@MaxwellPietsch]

​@@conqueragingordietrying123cool that makes sense and is consistent with what I've seen too

[@etie_lahat]

As always - fascinating! Thank you for sharing all this data. So, how to settle this data with what we hear all over the place about muscle 💪 and it's importance when it comes to aging? How to split the difference? Does one optimization come on the expanse of the other? I try to workout 10 hours a week, as an optimal U shaped graph that I think you showed once, suggests. And where is, if I might ask, your cardio vascular workout? I agree on the importance of rest, but even for someone like me enjoying a lot of free time, finding the right optimization and balance between all aging exercise targets and the rest of forward looking data, is a big challenge. I know I should play more table tennis that's for sure😂

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Do you track HRV and RHR? The 90-minute workout is circuit training-based, and is a CV stimulus, as evidenced by my currrent 2024 average RHR, 42 bpm.

[@etie_lahat]

@@conqueragingordietrying123 I do track HRV & RHR. Now it's a bit more challenging since I've moved to a new tracker that does not give HRV directly. But, I'm also very attentive to my body. I've heard chief scientist for whoop talk about HRV and how the data is very personal. I'm also not much of a runner, though I do enjoy it, but I think the benefits of zone 2 and sprint training, out way the data on HRV.

[@KoiRun50]

Do you get injuries and how often? If not, how do you prevent injuries?

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

I've battled a herniated disc in my lower back for a long time, but fortunately, I've been training without that issue for a few years. So I try to be mindful of any tweaks in the area, and train correspondingly (i.e. a heavy deadlift vs a lighter day).

[@mannmstorm]

Thanks! What is your take on the fact that some say HRV is not an accurate measure, for example that extra heartbeats like PVCs influence HRV? Have you considered measuring PVCs and more advanced parameters for example using the Wellue ECG Recorder device? I did that measurement, and it showed 5000 PVCs/24 hours, but then I could clearly feel I had extra heart beats. I repeated the measurement months later and it only showed a few PVCs/24 hours and that was as expected since I could not feel the extra heartbeats then. I don't know why the number of PVCs were so greatly reduced, I wish I was able to track my data as well as you, then I perhaps could have figured out a correlation with zero p-value😀

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Hey @mannmstorm, I'm not sure, I haven't looked into PVCs

[@michaelkueschnig]

Are the HRV data points from your morning HRV? The exercise vs RHR and HRV are not surprising if the exercise was considerably hard, this effect might be short term though. Do you find a long term correlation that goes in the other direction? I would love to buy short term "bad" data in order to be more healthy long term.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

HRV and RHR are measured during sleep. Yep, the short-term impact is worse HRV and RHR, but form my experience, most don't allow those metrics to recover enough prior to another workout, which is a part of the overtrained phenotype. I think minimizing overtraining is a part of the longevity equation.

[@darrenparis8314]

Does waking up earlier improve RHR/HRV? You have have the data that you could test for a correlation?

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

If waking up earlier means sleep debt, in thhe short term it doesn't generally impact my HRV and RHR, but with chronic sleep debt, that's bad for HRV and RHR. I try to avoid that as much as possible. I haven't tracked wake-up time, so I can't say...

[@christopherpalmer4243]

Surprised your HRrest is so low with that amount of exercise

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

The two 90 minute weekly workouts are challenging-it's essentially nonstop the whole time, circuit-training based, which is a cardiovascular stimulus...

[@AladdinPersson]

Michael one thing that crossed my mind is if your data could be biased. You need to some normalization because of the fact that recent data you’re way more fit than 2020 Michael. The fact that you’ve been able to decrease your RHR a lot would also mean your ADHR would go down. In other words, likely your ADHR has decreased over the years because your RHR has gone down. I am not convinced this has the implication that you’re implying here

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Hey Aladdin, I get what you're saying-one way to address it might be with the ADHR * BW instead of the ADHR, which would be a potentially better measure of daily effort.

[@AladdinPersson]

@@conqueragingordietrying123 Yeah, and we can also do monthly averages of ur RHR during that time and compare the percentual difference to see if it’s the case that RHR is positively correlated with previous days average HR. So the x axis would be % difference to the average (normalized for that time) and and the y axis would be the % difference of RHR for next day. Do you think that would make sense?

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

@@AladdinPersson Hmm, not yet- the y-axis would compare RHR vs what baseline value? Similarly, the x-axis would be the ADHR compared to initial (2018) ADHR values?

[@AladdinPersson]

@@conqueragingordietrying123 The problem that I see now is that the RHR and your ADHR have drifted as you’ve become more fit compared to previous years. I suspect that the RHR and ADHR are highly correlated so during the time you had you had higher ADHR the next days RHRs would also be higher. I was thinking that a way to resolve that is to normalize with respect to an average during that particular time the measurement was recorded and then you compare these percentual differences rather than in absolute terms which could cause bias

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

@@AladdinPersson Gotcha Aladdin. When (what time period) would you take the average ADHR? Alternatively, ADHR * BW vs RHR could be a better metric than the ADHR-RHR correlation, as it accounts for BW

[@jakubchrobry3701]

Sorry, I deleted my comment before I realized you replied. I never seen someone reply that fast. I deleted it because I realized I didn't know if you gained weight or lost weight over time. You still have a problem with multicollinearity from a time series. Your weight was gradually going up (or down) with time as other factors were changing. Is that not what happened? Or did your weight fluctuate: one year up 10 lbs, the next year down 10 lbs, etc?

[@ChessMasterNate]

Is "resting heart rate" the lowest heart rate in the 24h period as recorded by Whoop? Any correlations with foods/nutrients? The caffeine in coca powder? Thyroid hormone level? Body temperature? Calories in first vs second or third meal? Maybe you only have to reduce calories later in the day. I was thinking just yesterday how amazing it is that you have been so consistent, recording so much info. You are creating your own goldmine.

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Definitely @ChessMasterNate. Ha, when I had this idea in 2015, it was like the scene in the Matrix where Neo says, "Guns, lots of guns", only my though was "Data, I need lots of data" I'm not sure if RHR is the lowest or an average, but it's recorded during sleep. I have correlations for foods and nutrients, but the correlations aren't close-to as strong as the ADHR and BW. I could show those data in a future video...

[@ChessMasterNate]

@@conqueragingordietrying123 Any correlations close to significant would be interesting. And I would love to see a video showing an ordinary day of testing and recording. And your spreadsheet layout.

[@monnoo8221]

as impressiv that is, i still see my doubts nott getting dissolved. So I have got some questions: Do you have data hat would clearly indicate that low RHR, even with high HRV, is truly beneficial, without side effects? How is your max HR under full load exercise conditions? How does your blood pressure look like? how your resting ECG? n your pulse wave, do you have a double peaked form, nidicaating good flexibility and reactive contracion of the arteries? can you compile the average RHR, and ADHR, for the whole period between the labtests? The reason i am talking about is glomerular filtration, as measured by BUN, creatinine, cystatin C, adn uric acid. would be interesting to exclude a relationship here... technical questions: the plot HRV againt ADHR is referring to the next day HRV after an exercise day? else about whoop, since i cannot find the information anywhere, even not on whoop site: you can see all these data in whoop app? can they be exported into a data file of some text format? Thank you very much

[@imtryinghere1]

i find it weird you don't do any jogging, HIIT... no cardio other than walking?

[@conqueragingordietrying123]

Yep, for now. More exercise than than impairs HRV and RHR. Once if have more time in the schedule I fully intend to incorporate HIIT, as I miss it. I'm not much of a jogger.