In 1974, Rep. Liz Holtzman knew a Nixon pardon would 'set a terrible precedent'

50 years ago, a young congresswoman named Elizabeth Holtzman questioned President Gerald Ford, in front of the House Judiciary Committee and the country, on his decision to pardon Richard Nixon. Now, as Trump faces felony charges, his sense of invincibility points to the idea of presidential impunity planted with Nixon’s pardon half a century ago. “I knew it was wrong at that time, and I knew it would set a terrible precedent,” says Holtzman. “We never dealt with the underlying problems of a rogue President.”
» Subscribe to MSNBC: on.msnbc.com/SubscribeTomsnbc
Follow MSNBC Show Blogs
MaddowBlog: www.msnbc.com/maddowblog
ReidOut Blog: www.msnbc.com/reidoutblog
MSNBC delivers breaking news, in-depth analysis of politics headlines, as well as commentary and informed perspectives. Find video clips and segments from The Rachel Maddow Show, Morning Joe, The Beat with Ari Melber, Deadline: White House, The ReidOut, All In, Last Word, 11th Hour, and Alex Wagner who brings her breadth of reporting experience to MSNBC primetime. Watch “Alex Wagner Tonight” Tuesday through Friday at 9pm Eastern.
Connect with MSNBC Online
Visit msnbc.com: on.msnbc.com/Readmsnbc
Subscribe to the MSNBC Daily Newsletter: MSNBC.com/NewslettersKZbin
Find MSNBC on Facebook: on.msnbc.com/Likemsnbc
Follow MSNBC on Twitter: on.msnbc.com/Followmsnbc
Follow MSNBC on Instagram: on.msnbc.com/Instamsnbc
#Velshi #Nixon #MSNBC

[@drussell_]

Any future Republican president that believes pardoning Trump will _"heal the country"_ is *absolutely **_DELUSIONAL!!!_*

[@feffygracie]

Maybe they'll pardon Biden, too, posthumously.

[@ianb9028]

@@feffygracie maybe someone will find evidence of President Biden’s guilt as opposed to manufactured nonsense from whistleblowers who cannot be found to testify under oath. I really hope some people will soon realize facts matter and rhetoric is lies.

[@aaronkritusan9397]

@@feffygracie For what? I don't particularly like Biden, but he's no more a criminal than any other US President, excluding Nixon, and, if convicted, Trump.

[@tj2791]

@@feffygracie As we all know, Biden doesn't have to worry about that kind of thing. Are there a lot of "chemtrails" and exploding food warehouses where you're at today?🤣🤣🤣

[@feffygracie]

@@tj2791 You don't that. There's at least enough evidence that exist that the FBI is running interference.

[@Gencoil]

A terrible precedent led to a terrible president.

[@saraleigh5336]

Nice wordcraft.

[@andreah6379]

Dump didn't do all this damage by himself...it took an entire tribe just like him, simpatico with him.

[@yvonneplant9434]

It was infuriating at the time.

[@dandeluxe8731]

@@yvonneplant9434 It's still infuriating.

[@deborahfreedman333]

The precedent was a pardon after resignation. Trump didn't resign, but instead was twice impeached.

[@samsson6430]

Love how this woman uses the English language. She's not keeping any secrets. Prison for Trump.

[@paulstewart6293]

There are people, not many, who speak precisely and who use their language well. It's a pleasure to hear them. Raskin talks good too.

[@elainejohnson6955]

Liz Holtzman is exactly right. The Constitution says to Indict, Try, Judge, and Punish according to Law NEVERTHELESS of Impeachment! Our country can't heal if criminals who are running it are set free! Especially ones that are NATIONAL SECURITY RISKS!!!

[@saraleigh5336]

Exactly, especially because then it relied on norms-on hoping that a former president would break the law but then lead a quiet life (that is, not lead an insurrection). And now we have a president who has broken the law so egregiously and is such a threat-who breaks not just the law but also such crucial _norms_-that it really does absolutely risk the survival of the country.

[@williamwatson4625]

Well, under that premise, LBJ should've been indicted and tried for using government money for personal gain and to improve his private ranch in Stonewall, TX and his home. He was a vulgar megalomaniac who wasn't above doing something that we consider "highly unethical and unprofessional", like taking a leak on the lawn in full view of reporters, journalists, and his staff.

[@esasoftware1900]

Your logic fails because, in America, PRESIDENTS ARE THE LAW. They sit above the Judge. Why wasn't Nixon indicted for bombing civilians in North Vietnam? Or Truman who dropped the bomb on woman and children? Or Reagan for invading Grenada and killing Cubans. Or Clinton for bombing Serbia? Because Presidents are immune....totally.

[@Greeneggsandham123]

Presidents should be held at a higher standard , not no standard. After all it was a crime against 331 million people.

[@JamesPower]

Same with cops. You take on the authority you should hold yourself to a higher standard, not lower.

[@truthfulpam]

You are absolutely correct.

[@reeva5735]

This goes beyond America when you consider he stole secrets involving allied Nation capabilities! How dare this man steal secret papers that are VITAL to the safety of MY children here in the UK. The man is a TRAITOR,. To barr this man from ever holding public office again would satisfy me greatly.. since he can still run for the Presidency from prison! Unbelievable I know.

[@middleearth8809]

Well said.

[@ianreed9571]

"Presidents are not Kings and Trump is not the President."~Judge Chutkan~ Best quote in 2021!😊✌💙

[@unknown5150variable]

@Freedom Family lol, some of the cult is now calling their leader the king of kings claiming he is jesus. They even have a trumo bible and another book titled "trump, son of god" or some BS. They will defend his crimes oblivious that his crimes are against them and the entire country. Yeah, its definitely not a cult, lol

[@chrisbutler1668]

​@Freedom Family The Burger King

[@davemulka18]

I believe the best quote came from your beloved corrupt compromised biden when he stated he has been to all 52 states. Now thats leadership. And youre worried about trump???

[@527ctguy]

@@chrisbutler1668 not the McDonalds king? :)

[@77Creation]

@@freedomfamily548 Seek therapy. Seems no one loves you enough to intervene.

[@BadstreetMI]

I've been screaming about this for 3 years now. Nice to see corporate media catch up. Nixon's pardon greenlighted criminal behavior, and complicitly greenlighted fascism.

[@superbmediacontentcreator]

I've been saying that and it worked both ways since the Republicans have weaponized the accusation phase and seem to want to do away with the DOJ as we have known it...

[@Livingthedreamornightmare]

🎯 🎯 🎯

[@Scanner9631]

Some of us have been arguing that Ford should have been impeached for buying the Presidency with the pardon and Nixon with bribing him to get the pardon (by giving him the Presidency in exchange) ever since it happened.

[@margaretwordnerd5210]

I've been complaining about it since 1974. But 4 more years of Nixon would be preferable to Dolt 45.

[@superbmediacontentcreator]

@@margaretwordnerd5210 Yea, part of the law and punishment is meant to deter criminals from trying stuff, and this an example of how letting Nixon go with little but paper punishment has led directly to a guy like a trump thinking and actually getting away with this. If Trump is not punished it will only embolden others and bring to an end the statement of everyone being the same under the law.

[@user-dg7qc8jc8t]

Unfortunately for all real Americans today she was right.

[@rebeccahale322]

She speaks clearly and wisely..

[@marilyn8490]

I remember being very angry about the pardon as an 18 year old...why do we never learn? This set a precedent to just "forgive and forget" when in fact the devious offenders just won't quit!

[@pdoylemi]

I was 16 and also angry.

[@Pbav8tor]

Republicans.

[@suehowie152]

And as she said not only did Nixon get a pardon the system didn't do anything to stop his criminality from happening again.. Agnew fits in there also..

[@GoGreen1977]

I was 19, grew up in Ford's Congressional District, and my uncle's law firm in Grand Rapids advised Ford on the pardon. I was very upset back in 1974 and was very upset when, years later, I found out my uncle's law firm helped Ford decide to pardon Nixon!

[@coasterblocks3420]

That’s America all over though - refuse to learn, can’t be told, and an inflated sense of their own self-importance.

[@victoriao1828]

Thank you Liz Holtzman. I agree with you 100%!

[@jacquelineconquest6218]

Bravo, Rep. Liz Holtzman! 👍

[@matthewmcdermit8744]

Where has this brave lady been? You need to have her on again. Her message should be spread wider.

[@ragauerk9310]

She has been on msnbc before on occasion. She reminds me of times when citizens were not as tolerant of political criminality. We must break free of the frogs in warming water mentality, time to jump out of the pot we've been put in step by step by lying conniving repubs. TRump must be toast, not our country. Enough.

[@dubinatub1]

Agree she is a patron of integrity

[@glass1817]

I feel like people who are named Liz are starting to truly warn us

[@AdrianColley]

"Liz" is the new "Cassandra".

[@janne639]

Liz Holtzman is a New York treasure. She was an omnipresent powerhouse in government from the seventies into the eighties. She was and is sharp as a tack.

[@mollymaciulla1917]

I know, right? I can only hope I reach that age and have her faculties ❤ she must be in her early 80s, no?

[@arettalayne3635]

They are criminals in a good old boys club. They are afraid to punish each other because it could be them at any minute.

[@birdsndog5932]

This is why wealthy, powerful, privileged people tend to not get punished.

[@thiscorrosion900]

Yep. It's like cops having each other's backs even if one of their partners commits unspeakable acts or murders etc. But you can't let the side down and give up power!!

[@jjnelson3232]

YOU SMART, 100PCT RIGHT!

[@andreah6379]

Best believe that if we ever had any black person or woman as a president, certain powers of presidency would be gone...like pardons. White, rich male patriarchy would never ever allow anyone else not like them to have that same thing.

[@mgass1354]

When Trump said, "if they do this to me, you could be next", the "who" in that case wasn't his base, it was the GOP politicians, donor's, ie, rich elites politically connected.

[@pedronoa1973]

She's exactly right and we shouldn't make the same mistakes, plus chimps crimes are egregious.

[@feffygracie]

The case against Biden is mounting. Maybe they'll pardon Biden, too, posthumously.

[@leenusbaum9596]

I was 12-years old when I heard about this, and even then at that young age I thought the pardon was the wrong thing to do.

[@tlouiseallen9302]

Ditto

[@OldHeathen1963]

Same here dude! I was 11. When I said how I felt about it at the dinner table, my dad cracked me in the mouth! 😡 I'll never forget!

[@mollymaciulla1917]

@@OldHeathen1963that’s so sad! I’m so glad this way of parenting isn’t status quo anymore; my children can express and discuss anything with me. Even if they - sigh - were pro-Republican “values” - I wouldn’t engage with physical violence. I’m so sorry you went through that, your dad shoulda been proud that his child was curious and aware of current affairs and had a discussion about it. 😢

[@suemccord2633]

I remember you ❤ I was 16 when this happened. Social Studies got turned into a 3 hour class for watching and discovering. Loved growing up in SF. You Are A Hero 🎉Thank You ❤ Liz.

[@dubinatub1]

What a lady

[@Trendsetic]

This is why we need our elders to speak up! Sister did not mince words. "We abolished the idea of having a king in 1776," and "They can go down into the dust the way Gerald Ford did," Day-um! Sister did not mince her words.

[@georgeh6856]

Gerald Ford in this clip says that he pardoned Nixon so it would not distract from solving our foreign and domestic problems. As if the president or former president committing crimes is not a national problem!!! We need to stop running away from this problem and instead address it head-on.

[@peggedyourdad9560]

Especially considering this recent incident also concerns some of our nation's allies.

[@maizie9454]

this was my argument too. ford was full of bs

[@js8270]

The translated version.... America can't walk and chew gum at the same time.

[@danielmorales1470]

Spot on!

[@toddmercure9745]

@@js8270 Ford had plenty of issues with the walking part just by itself. His clumsiness was legendary even to me as a 10 year old.

[@niclewis9610]

Ford protected the person and occupant. That was no deterrent to any future President. It should always be about protecting the Integrity of the Office of President not it's occupant.

[@aa697]

Liz is the best. Wish she were still in office.

[@steveburke7675]

Pardon him?....you will guarantee a repeat. The next time may well be the end of the world's longest democracy.

[@ashleighschneider8859]

I never saw that clip of Ford - very very interesting. Great piece and great guest.

[@tomsdotter3228]

We all knew it was a mistake.

[@conniescharre9402]

Why is it that when a Republican is in trouble with the law, the statement, “We need to move on” is always the excuse to not punish but, when a Democrat is being excused of something, “We need to make an example of them” is their rallying cry?

[@s2snider]

They are a tad inconsistent, aren't they?

[@BLACKWOLF-1911]

I like people that know their history. They tend not to make the same stupid mistakes!

[@DavidGutierrez-ib7rg]

That's a key element no one ever mentions. Trump and all these clowns know little about history, or care to. He who knows only their generation remains forever a child. He doesn't even know anything about his own generation.

[@jjnelson3232]

TELL THAT TO MEATBALL RON DUH SANTIS. HE WANTS FUTURE GENERATIONS TO REPEAT MISTAKES! THAT'S WHY THE GOP HATES HISTORY!

[@gregorybooker5469]

That pardon cost Ford and Republicans dearly in the elections.

[@ARichardP]

But four years later Reagan got elected, and handily. And Republicans were in the White House for the next 12 years. From 1969 to 1993, with the exception of 1977 to 1981, the GOP controlled the executive branch. But Democrats mostly controlled Congress and the Supreme Court leaned left.

[@andreah6379]

So they then realized they all needed to lie, cheat & steal their way to power. From Raygun to Dump, that's exactly what all Rethuglicons did.

[@andreah6379]

​@@ARichardPIran Contra. No Rethuglicon after Nixon ran by NOT cheating, lying, and stealing. Why don't you know that?!

[@Michael1966W]

@@ARichardPthey lost the Senate in 1980 but gained it back 6 years later. Even liberals are saying Ford did the right thing with the pardon. He did it to get watergate behind us and move on. Trump’s case is different. His is much worse

[@cmr7854]

My dad was a conservative when he was alive, and a very wise man. I was 7 years old when Nixon resigned and was then pardoned and it went contrary to everything he taught me, so I was upset to see Nixon get away with it. One of the most significant things my dad taught me about being a man was that I accept accountability for my actions without deflection to others. I remember him telling me, "Pardoning Nixon was a big mistake. He needs to realize consequences for his actions. I don't know where my political party gets the idea this will be healing for the nation."

[@js8270]

_Your party_ that statement raises serious questions about you as an individual. Right now the republican platform is R E V E N G E And the 4 pillars supporting the platform 1. Lying 2. Hypocrisy 3. Projection 4. Bigotry

[@NopeUghUghAbsolutelyNot]

I've come to the conclusion when they say America or Americans they are only referring to those who support trump and those who votes they want. No one else is included in the word America/American

[@cmr7854]

@@js8270 If you read my post a little more carefully, my dad identified it as his party back in 1974. And no, he did not agree with everything the Republican party espoused. His favorite president was Harry S. Truman, a democrat. Mostly, he was a fiscal conservative, but our household was socially liberal. And today he would have been horrified and called out their fascist behavior and would have supported Trump being prosecuted just as he thought Nixon should have been. I wrote in a candidate in 2016 and voted against Trump by voting for Biden in 2020. The Republican party horrifies me. They are dead to me! Color me a Never Trump Independent. And I will not support any candidate who has ever defended that gold-plated a**hole. I will be voting for Biden in 2024.

[@saraleigh5336]

@@js8270 the OP, I believe, was quoting the father.

[@trainrecked]

My Dad voted republican usually till Kennedy and then Back to Nixon.He was quite disappointed and I believe he would be a democrat for sure by now ...but he is long gone.

[@xelamercedes]

Listening to Ms. Holtzman feels like salve to my soul. She's speaking truth, common sense, love of country TRUTH. Do we or do we not believe in the rule of law and in justice?

[@neilm2794]

Ford was so full of crap. No one would have been distracted by an indictment, trial, or conviction of Nixon. The judge and jury do that work for us; let the evidence decide the proper course. I wonder how Ms. Holtzman feels about a judge presiding over a case where the defendant is the person who appointed them - surely that shouldn’t be allowed or constitutional either

[@kateuhler7803]

It's not just a "sense" of two tiers of justice - there IS two tiers of justice: one for the rich and/or connected, and one for the rest of us.

[@clayoreilly4553]

And a third more onerous tier for the poor and people of color.

[@jakemf1]

Spot on!!

[@ggggloveking9419]

True. And ponder that when they tell you the armed IRS agents will be going after the rich 😂

[@briansmutti]

when you pardon CRIMINALS …it teaches criminals which jobs to apply for

[@ziziroberts8041]

Only criminals need pardons. Vote Blue 🌀💙🌀💙🌀

[@tarabound]

Not true. Good protesters are arrested and often convicted. President Trump is not one of those, but bad laws must be broken. It would be good if people who work to make the world better the receive pardons for what were considered crimes.

[@ziziroberts8041]

@@tarabound gobbledegook

[@billdunne5266]

great woman,fearless then and fearless now,Respect .

[@HeidiSchwendeWSI]

One of the main reasons 45 thinks he can get away with anything.

[@lelaine61]

🤩Keep Going MSNBC with the Much Needed Historical Information👍Great Great Interview Velshi👍Thank You Liz Holtzman🌹🇺🇸

[@evac3928]

I was a kid, and it sure did shape how I saw my country. Been pessimistic and untrusting of the government ever since.

[@ggggloveking9419]

Somehow, I bet you're rooting for the government against Trump😂

[@HandleThisSelection2]

​@@ggggloveking9419Somehow, you could be an uncritical thinker.

[@ggggloveking9419]

@@HandleThisSelection2 What, you aren't willing to believe the government would go after someone? I don't trust police. I don't trust the feds. And I don't care who they're going after, I don't trust them.

[@alexandralibin5131]

Ford was not elected Vice President, or President, yet he had the power to pardon Nixon.

[@ragauerk9310]

Good clarification, we the People must set that record straight in 2024, all republicans Out, so that misuse of power can be ended and corrected.

[@thiscorrosion900]

Well, yes he did, since he was de facto President of the USA of course. He shouldn't have, but he did, by virtue of being acting president.

[@rachelgarber1423]

I think he became president as a result of Agnew going down in infamy. He was President of the Senate, and I think Ford was Speaker of the House, so that would be how he became president without being elected. I think that’s how it worked

[@dritemolawzbks8574]

Someone had to be president and make the decision. The pardon power is broad, but it doesn't cover state crimes. They could have investigated whether or not any state crimes were violated.

[@robertl.fallin7062]

​@@rachelgarber1423 you are correct.

[@kevinkevin4985]

No pardons. None. Zip. Nada. He does the time and pays the fine.

[@mikecobalt7005]

Presidential Impunity = Dictator or King. George Washington said an election, not a coronation, America shall not be a country of royalty; and nobody wants to place their own dictator. Politicians should be held to *Atleast the same standard.

[@relaxedsack1263]

I dont like it when Trumps or Kennedys put their family in their cabinet either. Crazy that didnt get more push back, its like having a royal court.

[@Ryuujinv01]

@@relaxedsack1263 The kennedys at least were qualified and attempted to govern, Trump put them in for the express purpose of grifting in plain view.

[@susancoddington6393]

Thank you Mrs Holtzman for your wisdom then and now

[@bigsong]

In sports, what Trump is doing is called "taunting". He's taunting everyone who wants him to be held accountable for his actions and effectively saying: "You can't catch me" - so far he is right

[@Carol-fx4uk]

Not for much longer...really think he's going to get nailed!

[@suemccord2633]

Soo Far..is about to end😂

[@deborahmulkey1627]

And "taunting" is what adolescents do with their parents. And toddlers. Testing to see how much they can get away with.

[@user-wi9hv2pb2q]

He's already paid millions upon millions for his big mouth alone. He's lost his value as a spy for putin. He must be terrified that Russia will have him silenced. If they go after Jared for his Saudi billions where will Trump have left to hide?

[@rachelgarber1423]

And I remember Nixon being elevated to elder statesmen status. He was a crook

[@ARichardP]

A crook who was still a much better human being than Trump. Everything he touches dies, including democracy.

[@rachelgarber1423]

@@ARichardP Yep

[@olivekatz9139]

Great interview

[@MOONSIP2]

Like Ms. Holtzman says, it's important to let the process play out.

[@Juicexlx]

Great interview. Brilliant Congresswoman of the past

[@ericmccarty9656]

And there is the definition of a two tiered judicial system!

[@andreah6379]

It's been with us since Day 1.

[@karenwaddell9396]

We the People were so angry about the pardon. Thus, Ford was not re-elected. It was wrong then and wrong now!

[@johnbiela9442]

I have to agree. We wanted his head, and got the shaft. Still, I think Ford did the right thing. Otherwise, we woukd have had the same kind of rift in politics then, that we have now. It just took 50 yrs, and the ultimate grifter, to make it happen. The main difference, Ford didn't side with the kremlin.

[@karenwaddell9396]

@@johnbiela9442 or the Saudis or China.

[@mushroomsteve]

Yet again, someone who had the foresight to warn us about a certain dangerous course of action, only to be ignored, dismissed, and then later proven right. This has become an all-too-familiar refrain lately. So many Cassandras warning us and being ignored, so many opportunities to do make the right call and doing the opposite, and with such a high cost.

[@kickazz999]

Who listens to women? Drain duh Swamp🤗

[@renatacantore3684]

Thank you for setting the record straight 👏🏽👏🏽🏆🇺🇸🌟

[@ecamp6360]

Wow, you could actually force a prez to come to testify on Capitol Hill?

[@michelleladd7394]

Back then you could

[@KingBrandonm]

@michelleladd7394 Well when Congressmen don't even respect the authority of Congressional subpoena power, why should the President? Republicans still have outstanding subpoenas, yet they have the gall to expect anyone to submit to their subpoenas? That went out the window when Republicans refused.

[@user-wi9hv2pb2q]

yes. anyone. you have a right not to incriminate yourself but you must show up.

[@KingBrandonm]

@@user-wi9hv2pb2q Tell that to McCarthy and Gym Jordan. If they won't even acknowledge the authority of a Congressional subpoena, why should anyone?

[@devilsnevercry22]

Sometimes an "I told you so" is necessary

[@juan-carlosfrancois8498]

Pleaaassee learn from the Watergate scandal and hope that the orange masiah is tried, convicted and goes to jail!!

[@chrisjeffries2322]

Thank you, Elizabeth Holtman.

[@llm8268]

Agree with Liz Holtzman completely. She was always spot on and anything less than equal justice for all is nothing short of a monarchy. Listening to Ford’s reasoning, he sounds ridiculous.

[@LovinLnCottage]

She is so right then and now. I lived and worked there (D.C.) then. I grew up in Michigan and I was ashamed of Ford and still am.

[@donaldcarpenter5328]

Do you KNOW how MANY people were PROUD their very FIRST VOTE was to KICK FORD out of the White House in 1976!!!!!!!

[@ARichardP]

I remember thinking as a 14 year-old in 1974 - WTH. How can that happen? Ford wasn’t even elected.

[@NancyLynn]

I hope a lot of Americans listen to Rep Elizabeth Holtzman.

[@JP-JustSayin]

Ford: I Pardoned Nixon because American can't walk and chew gum. America in 2023: hold my beer.

[@redmed10]

More to avoid embarrassment for USA rather than distractment. It's all about maintaining the idea of American exceptionalism.

[@ragauerk9310]

We are laughingstock everyday Trump is not yet in jail.

[@js8270]

Only the morons believe that nonsense as it ties into their sky wizard beliefs that they are special and the chosen, chosen buy the luck of the geographical and cultural draw.

[@annieb5146]

Too late for that. But convicting him will help our credibility.

[@juaneduardoherrera8027]

Rep Liz Holtzman we agree with you wholeheartedly.

[@DelfinoGarza77]

The moral of the story is let the girls make the tough decisions.

[@susanharrison2941]

Fantastic guest.

[@Lew114]

Thanks for this. I’d forgotten these details about Nixon.

[@fearalice]

People acting like indicting a former president is the source of embarrassment. The source of embarrassment is electing a criminal. Charging him is admitting we messed up and are taking steps to correct it. The problem is people seem to think admitting you were wrong is a bad thing.

[@pixipatricia4304]

Sorry Gerald, your crystal ball wasn't working too well. Look at the mess we are in now.

[@paulstough2995]

"Those who fail to learn from history, are doomed to repeat it."

[@disastermaster1413]

Kent state was worse than watergate

[@thiscorrosion900]

Well, they're both total atrocities, but yeah at Kent State you had the government literally ordering the military to murder innocent people for absolutely no reason but some madmen's political aims and insane right wing fantasies of eliminating all dissent.

[@lastjob2011]

In the land of law and order, criminals should go to prison!

[@calder1963]

Imagine, a sitting President giving testimony before a Congressional committee. It will never happen again.

[@romanclay1913]

"You can´t put a crown on a clown and expect a king."

[@jimmyjohns3261]

Meanwhile, 80 years later corruption is more rampant then before. This would have helped curb what we deal with today.

[@thiscorrosion900]

Maybe. If things degrade in a particular country (Russia for example, although it's always been a massive clusterf---k anyway), then they degrade and there's often no stopping it until it's far too late. Setting a precedent may not even deter future criminals and madmen.

[@annieb5146]

Keep the faith, Baby!!! Remember, we elected Biden & lots more Dems at the midterms!!! We're not stupid! (At least most of us.) Thank God for an honest man in the White House.

[@marshwetland3808]

Jeez, Ford's face is a like a demon out of a Bosch painting. And Holtzman is a fantastic lady. She's the kind of person needed in government. Love her energy.

[@carlwatzulik753]

Liz was right! And thanks to Ford, here we go again! Ex-president Trump needs to face the music. He is no better than you or I when it comes to the judicial system. "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time". Well now it seems as if is DJT is going to have to face the music, thanks to our judicial system. It may be slow, but it still works! And as to the pardon nonsense, I say that is just one more reason to vote Biden back in for a second term.

[@johnmahlmann6382]

Very sharp, clear, and concise.

[@jessieadair]

Elizabeth Holtzman is clear and persuasive, using plain language and historic examples that are known by most if not everyone. She makes a strong case and comes across as a formidable advocate for our Democracy. Must respect and appreciation for her service to the American people.

[@SSJvegito501]

It blows my mind that someone back then said that criminals have suffered enough.

[@diligentmindz]

Let the criminal justice work! It’s a foundation of this country, without it what is America?

[@oldsagejoe]

Of course Ford didn’t mention any specific “problems” that needed to be solved.

[@shazamshazamshazam696]

The first oil embargo was ravaging the working and laboring class, it was used to permanently destroy what had been the richest working class on the planet at the time.

[@rtqii]

@@shazamshazamshazam696 Congress made the decision to borrow money to pay for the Vietnam war and record inflation was also hitting the middle class. The Vietnam war was the start of our record debt levels.

[@shazamshazamshazam696]

@@rtqii Thanks for the reminder that the Vietnam War was also escalating at that time, It was an awful decade beginning with Nixon's presidency, in 1969.

[@rtqii]

@@shazamshazamshazam696 Some of these terrible decisions were made during the Johnson administration. America turned to a Republican to make things better, and they made things much worse. Nixon was a criminal.

[@pixipatricia4304]

And..the problems still exist to this day. The pardon only solved Nixon's problem. We are now dealing with Agent Orange.

[@davincidreams832]

The country NEEDS to see him prosecuted, convicted and in jail. Its going to be ugly. It may lead to violence. But to let him get away with it is a MUCH BIGGER danger to USA long term.

[@aulvinduergard9952]

I always thought Ford got a bad wrap. Now I know that history's been far too kind to him.

[@mikemann1638]

All pardons should go by a 3 member panel of former presidents in order to be valid

[@andreah6379]

That won't necessarily help, either. Any rich, white men in power need someone to arbitrate them more often than not. Patriarchy is why we are losing our democracy now.

[@therealrhodiemx]

Great idea!

[@s2snider]

Or better yet, just remove this power from the president. I can't see any good reason for any president to have this power.

[@smokeykitty6023]

Good guest! Great discussion!

[@wandaway1961]

Nixon said that if the president does it, it's ok. I would add that in 1976 our Southern Baptist preacher told us that it's ok to lie if it serves god. No accountability for things done in God's name. No accountability for "a king."

[@garyg6000]

So glad to hear this. Thanks for sharing.

[@jamielittle567]

This sweet lady is brilliant.

[@ekamsat9]

Wow, Liz that was awesome. Thank you for asking Ford the question then and giving us the lessons to be learned now with tRump.

[@alfredgeorge3186]

We keep hearing republicans say they would pardon trump....we hear tump say he will pardon himself.... Hmmm.... They must already think he is guilty. We the People...🇺🇸 VOTE (BIDEN) BLUE 🔵

[@randal_gibbons]

Gerald Ford served as Vice President and President without being elected to either office.

[@RealJackHQ]

I am hoping all the best for you Liz. You are such a beautiful soul and I am hope we can carry your legacy of being tough on political criminals.

[@tejanoj3017]

Privilege is invisible to those who have it.

[@sarahknehr1362]

Ford basically said the US government can't walk and chew gum at the same time.

[@richardowens9061]

Yes - and, he was saying that the idiotic red herrings he was tossing out were more important than prosecuting a criminal president.

[@jay-el-bee]

It's such an obvious answer to an outlandish question. The former congresswoman was correct then and now.

[@essejbardelas9249]

Justice for all accountable for guilty.

[@crazyburkey3677]

She was definitely spot on😠

[@michellekennedy6091]

Justice must prevail for citizen Trump

[@HandleThisSelection2]

Bless your heart. Keep sending the baby king your hard earned dollars.😅

[@michellekennedy6091]

@@HandleThisSelection2 I hope Trump goes to jail

[@michellekennedy6091]

@@HandleThisSelection2 I hope he goes to jail. That would be justice!