In A World Where Children Blow Up Children, Everyone's A Threat

Star Trek The Next Generation s03e12 The High Ground
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Outro Music: • STAR TREK - THE NEXT G... & • Magical Trevor : Episo...

[@asheer9114]

"It's easy to be a saint when you live in a Paradise..." - Benjamin Sisko.

[@jdbarr769]

DS9 was closer to life than this schlock.

[@Newtube_Channel]

Paradises don't last forever. History has a habit of going in circles, repeating itself along with all the deeds and misdeeds it encompasses thereto.

[@laker4life36]

True! I’m going to write down this quote. And am going to watch this episode!

[@yourstruly4817]

It's quite impossible actually, because in a paradise, nobody needs your help

[@thunberbolttwo3953]

Yet the federation offered them free passage to a difernt federation colony. They choose to stay. To make it better they demanded the federation fight another pointless war. for worthless biorfder colonys. In the end the maquis got what they desrved.

[@davidtucker9498]

Just wanted to point out, this is GOOD Wesley writing. He comes up with a solution that he would plausibly know about, can't quite remember, and the professionals who are more experienced help him fill in the blanks.

[@maxschon7709]

I noticed that too.

[@randomrazr]

shut upp wesley

[@davecrupel2817]

@@randomrazr YOU shut up. This is where we get to see Wesley shine the way he always should have!

[@randomrazr]

@@davecrupel2817 should see the deleted scene of him on nemesis

[@Sage2000]

Yes, good writing

[@davecrupel2817]

"You win, you're called a general. You lose, you're called a terrorist." He's not wrong.

[@jean-louislalonde6070]

Had Washington and delegates to the continental congress failed, they would have been judged and hung for treason, only getting a footnote in History books.

[@davecrupel2817]

@@jean-louislalonde6070 Exactly. History is written by the victors. Which is unfortunate. But, the way it is. /:

[@snagletoothscott3729]

'George Washington wasn't a terrorist, he was a general" King George rolls over in his grave.

[@jonathanakehurst4489]

Dude, please correct this post...

[@LordTalax]

When did Washington explode bombs in loyalist bars and such? He fought the British army in the field is didn't blow up civilians to get noticed.

[@MasterofSpiders]

"My methods are gentle compared to my predecessors." Sounds like something Gul Dukat would say.

[@Dowlphin]

My next question would have been: Are you content with that state? Because it can be accepted if you cannot force extreme change but might have to go step by step, but if one settles for a slightly better state because it used to be worse, that opens the whole thing up to corruption.

[@cleanerben9636]

Yeah But Gul Dukat did nothing wrong

[@illam9500]

@@cleanerben9636 gray. Very gray

[@tom-vf1xv]

@@cleanerben9636 his desire to murder an innocent daughter of his just to maintain his position alone suggests a lot of bad behavior that hasn't been exposed by Dukat

[@Hydorior]

​@@illam9500, of course Gul Dukat's gray, he's Cardassian 😉

[@nbartlett6538]

"We need to design the look for a new alien but can't think of anything new. We've already done every conceivable combination of forehead ridges and neck wattle." "Have you tried a streak of grey hair?"

[@giovannimassa8881]

Whats even funnier that is an actual genetic condition you can have, where you have a streak of grey hair Former Italian PM Aldo Moro had it, looks *quite* simular to the condition irl, though I forget it's name

[@RandomAmerican3000]

New teleportation technology is expensive, the budget had to be cut somewhere.

[@hardwirecars]

@@giovannimassa8881 rogue from the xmen's look was based on that condition.

[@Vespyr_]

@@hardwirecars Looks dope lol

[@beingsshepherd]

Joe Pesci's character in _Casino (1995)_ had such a streak.

[@PtolemyJones]

When Pickard said the might 'require the services... of a Doctor' my mind fed in the opening sound of the Doctor Who theme.

[@jeremymacdonald6687]

keep in mind that Patrick Stewart is English so he could have just slipped that in.

[@cdc8875]

Yes! Patrick Swewart for Dr. Who! Lol

[@MLBeaton]

Dr.Who VS Q .... The Ultimate showdown! Or Dr. Who VS Q .... Time to fight!

[@MLBeaton]

Real Question... Which Dr. Would you have take on Q?

[@MrStephenRGilman]

My mind fed in a CSI Miami "whoaaaaaaaah!"

[@safebox36]

I just noticed I've never seen this episode. It was banned in the UK and Ireland until 2012 because 1) it promoted Irish reunification which is still a very controversial concept and 2) promoted the idea that terrorism was the cause of it which was something that had just ended a few years prior when this episode was written. It had an interesting message based on true events that occurred less than a few years before. But it risked causing so much political tension...

[@johnberney6563]

It's worth noting that this episode came out in 1990, a full eight years before the Good Friday agreement ended The Troubles.

[@phillipchase4491]

Yeah; it was written shortly after Lockerbie…

[@MgtowRubicon]

Both sides were heinous terrorists.

[@DarkMatterX1]

@@MgtowRubicon Unimpressive moral relativism is unimpressive

[@TheBooban]

@@johnberney6563 worth noting that a democracy would ban a tv show for its political views.

[@mahgeetahh]

"what happened to your predecessors?" "they were...vanished"

[@Dowlphin]

Crusher: _"You should be drawing, not killing people."_ Finn: _The academy didn't accept me._

[@UPRailRoad-xg8cb]

💀

[@beingsshepherd]

Same excuse some make for Hitler.

[@perryostrander4648]

The first casualty of war is truth the second is innocence 🐺

[@Dowlphin]

To gain a little spark of enlightenment, add to that the fact that the USA have, in their entire existence, almost never ever not been at war.

[@DarkMatterX1]

The 4th is MRE availability for prepping

[@banananotebook3331]

@@Dowlphin On the contrary, the US has always constantly been at war for its history, just not always at home. Spanish wars, Mexican wars, not to forget the Native-American wars, and this is all before 1900.

[@yourtrash1346]

@@banananotebook3331 U.S.A U.S.A U.S.A

[@menacelurkingyet8345]

First introduced to the concept of: "one man's terrorist is another man's patriot".

[@saberiandream316]

"In a world where children blow up children, everyone's a threat" would make a GREAT tagline in a movie trailer. Coming this summer to a theater near you!

[@lindaseel9986]

Some veterans have seen this first hand, right here on Earth

[@davecrupel2817]

"everyone's a threat" The day anyone utters those words, will be a dark day indeed...

[@BladeZero238]

That's assuming the words haven't been uttered already.

[@jonathanakehurst4489]

Welcome to the Covid Era. Don't forget your mask!

[@YEs69th420]

@DriftZ TwoSeven lol

[@scottmatheson3346]

@DriftZ TwoSeven from one white guy to another, seek help instead of wallowing in your delusions.

[@Marinealver]

We are there.

[@geoffwilliams4478]

"If firefighters fight fires and crime fighters fight crime, what do freedom fighters fight?" -- George Carlin

[@Dowlphin]

This reminds me of a moment in World of Warcraft when I was playing a troll hunter and was kneeling over a dead human NPC labeled "Troll Hunter".

[@Dowlphin]

Talk to him about bees and butterflies. ... You can skip the bees part.

[@DrownedInExile]

"If vegetarians only eat vegetables, what does a humanitarian eat???"

[@beingsshepherd]

@@DrownedInExile Finger food.

[@beingsshepherd]

@@DrownedInExile Finger food.

[@fingerboxes]

It's a good thing this doesn't have any parallels on Earth. Like in the Middle East, for example.

[@jordanreed3675]

Or Ireland and the events which are referred to as the “troubles”

[@amitakartok]

@@jordanreed3675 Or pretty much any human culture, really.

[@DarkMatterX1]

@@amitakartok Yeah, but this is _specifically_ paralleled to "The Troubles" in Northern Ireland. Which were contemporary to this episode, and the entire TNG series, really. The primary antagonist is even named *_Finn,_* a name of pretty undeniably Hibernian distinction.

[@stormsurge2103]

Hey, maybe Crusher should try and lecture the Bajoran Resistance that there's no need for their kind of violence because Gul Dukat was "kinder" then his predecessors.

[@saberiandream316]

Yeah, this episode is kinda funny to watch after seeing DS9.

[@scottmatheson3346]

3:03 "I'll take a potato chip ... AND EAT IT!"

[@jcortese3300]

What distinguished Washington was how he behaved after he won -- that's how you can tell a general from a terrorist. The fighting doesn't make the difference.

[@jonsmith5058]

I disagree, many generals, including US ones have been monsters to native populations of places they invaded (natives of the US included). Plus, would you be ok with say, the terrorists in the middle east being called generals because after they took over Afghanistan they ‘behaved better’ (I’m not saying they are behaving better btw, they are still terroristic monsters, but there are parallels to see between the US independence, where a colonial power was kicked out by an uprising by some of the local population and the recent situation in Afghanistan.

[@randbarrett8706]

Yep, Washington watched the non-partisan system fail immediately and contented himself with being a taskmaster to the enslaved people he owned.

[@birdandcatlover5597]

Give me liberty, or give me death Patrick Henry? Oh, and GW sent an army against a tribe defending its land!

[@dsandoval9396]

We should just give up this facade of humanity and just take up system of warfare. "You keep what you kill, Riddick! You keep what you kill."

[@Aethgeir]

Ahh, the good ol' days of Star Trek, when giving an actor skunk-hair was sufficient to pass as an alien!

[@kevinslater4126]

My personal headcanon is that this is what Scotty invented in the Star Trek Into Darkness movie which is why it was never adapted by Starfleet as a means of replacing spaceships for exploration. It becomes fatal over time.

[@cobaltclass.]

Adaptive transport sounds like it would be great for covert ops or transporting weapons somewhere. Maybe to send a band of Federation T-1000s down somewhere to 'discuss' an 'end' to hostilities.

[@lodevijk]

Comparing Washington to a terrorist, that's really something. Every message from this episode is true, yet people today seem not to understand

[@illam9500]

Washington was a great man but if we lost that war, his name would have been dragged through the mud and he would have been labeled one of the biggest traitors in British history

[@jonsmith5058]

@@illam9500 I mean he still is one the biggest traitors in British history. It just wouldnt be socially acceptable for the British or the rest of the world to describe him as such. You’re still a traitor even if your cause is arguably just. You kinda need to be like Ghandi to get independence and not be a traitor. He just kept asking and demanding his freedom but never fought.

[@illam9500]

@@jonsmith5058 I suppose that's one way of looking at it. Personally I never saw our forefathers as traitors cause they didn't consider themselves apart of the British empire to begin with. The American colonies weren't just British. They were made up of people from Britain, France, Poland, Germany, Ireland, Scotland, etc. These were people that were tired of the BS going on in their own nations and decided to go to the new world and start a new and England decided since most of them were English, that land belonged to the empire which is just legally and morally incorrect. None of them had any connection to the British empire other than prior military service and none of them colonized the Americas in the name of the king.

[@jonsmith5058]

@@illam9500 they were British subjects, rebelling against the British was and is treason. Like I said, that doesnt mean it isnt or wasn’t justified or even moral, but it was treason. I feel like you are over-romantising the colonial situation. These werent independent colonies pioneering settlers set up and the British decided were theirs. These were colonies created by the British, Spanish, French etc and they owned that land. They stole it from natives, but it was still under colonial rule. It really didnt matter if the people who emigrated there werent part of the British empire beforehand. They became part of it and were bound by their laws. I’m sure you’d see it differently if say a bunch of refugees from South America or the Middle East came to the USA, decided they had no connection to the customs and laws and said ‘f you, we govern ourselves now, get off my land’. The settlers were also going for alot more complex and varied reasons, many were forced to change their names on arrival to stifle ‘undesirable’ cultures. Colonial history is a fucking mess man, there were bad exploitative people on all sides and none of it is something to really be proud off… The USA really tried to whitewash and romaticize their part in all sorts of world history when often they were some of the worst offenders. Take Abe Lincoln and ending slavery. Many Americans think that was the start of a global movement, that Americans were the first to take a moral stance. Nah man. Slavery was banned in Europe by dozens of countries (including Britain) about 70-80 years before it was finally banned in the USA. The US even has a civil war over it since so many wanted to keep their slaves. The USA was following the global trend and even then resisted it. I’d strongly urge you to try and look at your history with a more objective perspective and also be willing to accept, its a bad history, of blood, violence, genocide, slavery, war crimes etc etc and not something to be proud of. It doesnt make you a bad person to be from such a culture, especially if you fight against such tyranny now, but believing and perpetuating the lies about your history is questionable and does stifle positive change.

[@illam9500]

@@jonsmith5058 I can't say I agree with all of that but I can say, I am proud of what was created from the ashes. This comes from someone of not only a vastly diverse European heritage but also as someone of native American heritage

[@nukepuke932]

"I'm willing to kill for it too." ... BEANS, BEANS, THEY'RE GOOD FOR YOUR HEART! THE MORE YOU EAT, THE MORE YOU FFFfffffffffff...

[@ThatWolfFromHyruleGaming]

I thought it was... "Beans, beans, the magical fruit. The more you eat, the more you toot. The more you toot, the better you feel. So let's have beans for every meal!"

[@MLBeaton]

Break your Prime Directive... Give us the replicators, Give us ships to expand to a hundred worlds, and give us the weapons to defend them! Give us your 'Peace' before you scold us for finding our own!

[@AmericaLexicon]

Nice hat.

[@matthewgarofolo7231]

I hate the hat, but damn that comment is correct in every way.

[@AmericaLexicon]

@@matthewgarofolo7231 hate? A star trek fan who hates? You'd think these morality plays would help, but we can't expect everyone to understand the lesson.

[@MLBeaton]

Steve Lynch This is for Matthew and everyone else aswell... The hat means nothing Iam Canadian anyways but Freedom of Speech / Expression is about protecting unpopular ideas!

[@DarkMatterX1]

@@matthewgarofolo7231 It's an inanimate object. That's like saying "I hate that rock."

[@AximandTheCursed]

"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his." -George S. Patton. Never saw this episode, probably because when I first watched most TNG episodes, I was getting it from UK broadcasts... freedom fighting/terrorism argument's a touchy subject over there.

[@menacelurkingyet8345]

The "other bastard" he is referring are professional soldiers, not the civilians.

[@AximandTheCursed]

@@menacelurkingyet8345 Well aware, but the terrorists in question here are quick to point out how willing they are to die for the cause, even though their targets are their fellow countrymen... it's why terrorism will never achieve anything worthwhile.

[@Dowlphin]

Interestingly, that quote implies both warring parties are bastards. Or more narrowly, at least in a situation where one party would employ such a view, that party believes themselves to be bastards just as the ones they attempt to kill. It also implies that 'the other bastard' is fighting for their country, i.e. being a patriot.

[@AximandTheCursed]

@@Dowlphin That's a pretty accurate summation of Patton's mentality; He didn't see himself or the enemy as saints, but accepted that both as dirty, violent scrappers fighting for something better than themselves. It's part of what made him such a good general.

[@beingsshepherd]

Erm _Bloody Sunday?_

[@Vespyr_]

I like the Wing Commander Confed uniforms.

[@jasonmckie4402]

I'm not sure ol George Washington was as clean cut and the good doctor would like to believe.

[@Eternal_Tech]

George Washington did not attack civilians. He directed his troops to attack soldiers of the other side, the British "Redcoats."

[@aguyhere7945]

He wasn't. Keep in mind he was, by any working definition, a traitor to his nation who helped lead an armed insurrection. He's only a hero because he was on the side that won.

[@everyonethinksyoureadeathm5773]

@@aguyhere7945 it should also be noted that even before the war. The colonists tried to head off any form of civil war with the crown. They were often scoffed at by the house of lords who were far more willing to use the colony as a piggy bank for their own uses. Even with the colonies paying back every cent caused by the seven years war, the taxes were never let up, they kept increasing with zero say from the colonies. The parliament trampled on every right within the British citizenry in the colonies. Why? Because they no longer saw them as British Citizens, they were far too removed from the motherland, a foreign entity that dare calls themselves fellow countrymen. The colonists never wanted to leave, even reading the declaration of indipendence in full, it read more of a legal inditement of the governments failure to secure the rights of her subjects. Not a letter saying there was gonna be a split using force.

[@Dowlphin]

@@Eternal_Tech George Washington was a leader of a genocidal, slavery-driving (and thus inevitably imperialist) settler-colonialist project. Do we have to debate whether that makes him a terrorist?

[@silverlotus7790]

@@Dowlphin George Washington defeated the British Empire through military victories and an alliance with France. He didn't drive out the British by chopping off the heads of British civilians or blowing up schools and churches. Kindly take your America-hating elsewhere

[@lazarusblackwell6988]

THANKS FOR THE CLIP MAN! IT IS APPRECIATED!

[@VintageYakyu]

Kyril Finn is played by actor Richard Cox. He brilliantly played the evil, possessed lawyer Alistair Pepper on the show Millennium in the episode "Powers, Principalities, Thrones, and Dominions". He also played Daniel Brimley in the X-Files episode "Brand X".

[@KCKingdomCreateGreatTrekAgain]

He’s not wrong. They have a paradise but it came out of much war many dead, innocent among them, and now they are smug about being above such things.

[@voidvalkyrie]

Next gen content uploaded recently? You are a treasure indeed.

[@critter30002001]

This is far better writing than most modern trek writers. There is no attempt at showing one side as good or bad, just as normal, flawed people. They make no attempt at dragging down the main characters, but allow them to be shocked at the savagery of people in a very real conflict as lost outsiders raised in peace would be.

[@jessa1895]

The bean man is back in my algo 😊😊

[@Canoby]

IIRC this ep was banned in the UK for the longest time as it hit a bit too close to home re Irish independence These days it's pretty easy to see how this applies to the Middle East etc. Star Trek is so great, it's always relevant.

[@psilva2565]

Roll that bean footage

[@kennethmelnychuk9737]

Data: folding space is an irrational act Toi Holtzman: hold my beer THINKING MACHINE

[@LordTalax]

they weren't folding space they were travelling through dimensions hostile to human life.

[@DJ_Kers]

When the blind guy says "look at this"

[@mhojaifa1110]

I mean we did do Japan dirty with Hiroshima and Nagasaki. From a strategic standpoint, it ended the war. From a moral/ethical standpoint, all those involved would burn in the deepest levels of hell.

[@davidgrover5996]

Not comparable. Imperial Japan’s war crimes far exceed NAZI Germany’s and you wouldn’t for a second have a problem had nuclear weapons been used on them. From any logical unemotional perspective the 2 nuclear weapons used were far more merciful than the incendiary bombing campaign carried out by the United States that year alone.

[@MatroidX]

@@davidgrover5996 2/3 agree. Rape of Nanking comes to mind, so no denying Japan's horrific war crimes. But do you really think 1 nuclear weapon alone wouldn't have resulted in their surrender? The 2nd seems like obvious overkill (more like sending a message to future potential enemies). www.history.com/news/hiroshima-nagasaki-second-atomic-bomb-japan-surrender-wwii

[@Dowlphin]

@@MatroidX You're all off there. Japan's defeat was a sure thing and both nukes were hurriedly dropped in order to not miss the opportunity to test the technology and set an intimidating, terrifying example to show force. This is pretty much proven based on all examined documented facts by now. It also underlines the live-testing and tech demo desire that it was not one but two bombs that were dropped in quick succession, because the second one on Nagasaki was a different technology; a plutonium bomb. And to anyone who is still so naive to think the USA isn't or wasn't capable of such savagery, I have to point out that they dropped *THREE* nukes on civilians. The third one, a while after WW2, was a hydrogen bomb they detonated next to a group of islands (Marshall Islands) in order to study the effects on the native population there. (One of the people who reported about it is John Pilger.)

[@davidgrover5996]

We know for a fact that that only one wasn’t enough @@MatroidX. Because the bombing were separated by days Aug 6, 1945 Little Boy was dropped on Hiroshima, *to which Prime Minister Suzuki reiterated the Japanese government's commitment to ignore the Allies' demands and fight on.* then on Aug 9, 1945 Fat Man was dropped on Nagasaki. Japan still didn’t surrender until Aug 15, 1945 after the Soviet Union entered the war. We were preparing to drop a Third bomb on August 19, 1945 and we had plans to drop 7 by October. Though that may not have been possible as we were having some production problems.

[@davidgrover5996]

@@Dowlphin, There is the narrative you believe and then there is the historical record. The two are only vaguely related.

[@Nyx773]

Looks like Bob Geldof. Sounds like Rod Serling.

[@mrtappyasmr7702]

This guy just owed Beverley

[@kurtboyer299]

The guest star's voice sounds like Stanley Kubrick to an uncanny degree.

[@2490debrick]

I just like that they recycled the uniforms here for Chief Examiner Nimara in VOY lol 😆

[@ericocccams5865]

adaptive subspace echogram lol

[@jonathanakehurst4489]

Hard to argue with that logic.

[@davidpahtoon2277]

Fin has a point

[@bigbobbacharcoal]

Beans lots of beans ;)

[@Argumemnon]

He has a damn point, though.

[@thunberbolttwo3953]

No he didnt.

[@thunberbolttwo3953]

@The Duke Of Flem So do the people he is atacking. Yes she does have the right to critisize him. Because he deliberatley targets civilians. Bascically he is untill you give me what i want. I will continue to murder civilians. Great argument. NOT.

[@thunberbolttwo3953]

@The Duke Of Flem Lol nice try but fail. a tiny minority wants independence. They have no problem killing civilians to get it.

[@thunberbolttwo3953]

@The Duke Of Flem Tp make it worse they no no problem atacking neutral third partys. He made the federation from a nuetral third party. To be against them.

[@thunberbolttwo3953]

@The Duke Of Flem Except the irish and americans did NOT target civilians. so nice strawman argument.

[@casey6556]

It's very odd to me that in this episode the people on the Enterprise and the planet are having these intense discussions about the morality of various acts of terrorism and responses to terrorism (as epitomized by Riker and the Rutian police official and Data and Picard) yet when we switch to Crusher, the doctor who has likely seen the horrors of injury and death on a far more face to face level than anyone else, she's the one making the childishly naive arguments to tee up Finn's big speeches. No hate for Crusher or McFadden at all; I just wish they were written better. If they absolutely needed someone naive to make the writing work, Data would have been a far better choice.

[@sinistan1002]

the title reminds me of the movie voice over guy don lafontaine

[@steveh1121]

At times the Dr needs to just help and keep quiet

[@wtfa2910]

It's laughable that someone can predict the future when they're not going to be part of it a would could should but is never to be

[@spitfire4206]

stand by me !

[@cormacmacsuibhne2867]

Does it surprise anyone that this episode was banned in the UK?

[@SansoHumar]

Pepe le pew would love it in that planet

[@MichaelSmith-cl1uo]

AND THE PLOT THICKENS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@YouPooper]

Was there an Earth unification war after First Contact?

[@unigaming9921]

I don't believe so

[@RobeonMew]

Roll credits

[@corssecurity]

Well srew the prime directive. The whole galaxy must adhere to my interpretation of human morality.

[@LaBarata12]

COME OUT YE BLACK AN’ TANS, COME OUT AND FIGHT ME LIKE A MAN

[@weasel9062]

"This is no way to live..." I say that everyday when I look at what the United States has become.

[@Boycott_Wendys]

This episode is about Israeli apartheid

[@Shiirow]

people always mistake TNG as some utopian show when the point of it all is that the conflict comes from without instead of within. TOS was the same way. The drama was from the cleverly crafted messages and parallels talking about modern society wrapped up in a story about aliens from other planets. Kirk and Picard didnt need to bicker with their crew members to create tension. its almost like the subtlety was completely lost by the time DS9 rolled around and everything became blatant and in your face. They practically beat you over the head with heavy handed messages. Where TOS could get away with talking about the stupidity of racism with a race of beings that had half white half black faces being racist against their brother because the left side was white and the right side was black instead of the left side being black and the right side being white. Sisko just cried "RACISM IS BAD" without any real nuance.

[@xzeroevil]

Ira Steven Behr is a blue beard leftist , OF COURSE the writing was heavy handed with him at the helm, he wasn't know for his subtle use of politic

[@garyclothier9914]

The X-Files Babylon

[@MrStephenRGilman]

Captain missed most of the conversation, but still manages too bulls**t his own two cents right at the end.

[@teach-learn4078]

Sounds like Dr. Crusher was Canadian eh?

[@junbh2]

Based on this conversation, no.

[@andrewdavis623]

I think it should be pointed out though that Washington (as far as I know) never targeted civilians his enemy was the British soldiers. I’m have no doubt that many innocent people were lost in the crossfire with both sides sharing blame. I’m also sure Washington was not some perfect Angel. Washington implemented the hit and run tactics that pushed the war in our favor but again it was always soldiers and military that he went after. Yes the lines get blurred and shades of black and grey are everywhere in war. However I think Terrorism separates itself from war when anyone who is not on your side becomes the Enemy and fear becomes the driving force. The fact that Washington laid his power down after the war and didn’t want to be president at first says a ton right there. He even wanted to set an example by serving no more than two terms in office. It’s a pretty broad brush to paint everyone in a war as either winners or terrorists.

[@Dowlphin]

It is somewhat telling how you only take settlers (and possibly their slave hirelings) into account. George Washington was directly doing business making profit from selling land conquered through genocide. But hey, such somewhat more indirect means of killing have such a psychological PR advantage. (This is also how a People as a whole gets away with their crimes. Massive distribution and thus 'dilution' of guilt.)

[@inoch07]

This episode has both aged well and poorly.

[@davidtucker9498]

The difference between terrorists and revolutionaries is that terrorists TARGET civilians, and revolutionaries target military personnel. Innocents still die, yes, but that is collateral damage, not the intended target.

[@guillermoelnino]

like "joggers" or "marchers" attacking soft targets like local businesses instead of military bases

[@lastspud7030]

Wrong, history decides the difference between terrorism and revolution.. and history is written by the winners.

[@lastspud7030]

Wrong, history decides the difference between terrorism and revolution.. and history is written by the winners.

[@richardoakley8800]

america nuked the civilian cities of hiroshima and nagasaki.... that would make america a terrorists

[@abehambino]

@@richardoakley8800 declared state of war. That is different than what the situation is being referred to here. We can debate how moral those bombings were, but they weren’t terrorism in the context of the OP.

[@SamSitar]

give him a reason not to kill.

[@TommygunNG]

Like, say, excruciating pain and death to him and his people if he doesn't? That'd be a good reason.

[@DarkMatterX1]

@@TommygunNG Or, you know, liberty. But sure, yours works too, in an authoritarian sort of way I guess.

[@TommygunNG]

@@DarkMatterX1 Terrorists don't deserve liberty.

[@DarkMatterX1]

@@TommygunNG Buddy, our forefathers were terrorists.

[@TommygunNG]

@@DarkMatterX1 Nope. The Colonies, based on stated violations, declared their independence. All was done by legitimate governments, and the combat to defend the newly-independent States and their Union was (by and large) in accord with then-extant rules of warfare.

[@patrickdurham8393]

I can't stand either of the Crushers.

[@Deltarious]

Do wish the doctor had pressed the counter argument further- Washington did not attack civilians, only others who were also combatants, it's a pretty stark contrast

[@ramgladore]

If you kill someone in order to acquire what they have, you are wrong but killing in the name of self defense is not a vice.

[@scottmatheson3346]

that begs the question. if they're holding something they're not entitled to you are engaged in "self defense" when you liberate it from them.

[@ramgladore]

@@scottmatheson3346 no my comment assumes what someone else has is rightfully theirs.

[@beingsshepherd]

The invasion of Iraq (2003) was both.

[@anthonylipke7754]

vortex manipulator? Who's the Doctor?

[@DarkMatterX1]

Valentino Rossi

[@Dowlphin]

@@DarkMatterX1 _Damnit, Bev, I'm a terrorist, not a doctor._

[@asbrozek64]

It's funny this random guy is more knowledgable and self aware than a Starfleet officer. It's like he is debating a child.

[@AndyCutright]

Self aware? Something that happened 600 years ago in a place she was born doesn't have squat to do with her, and it sure doesn't excuse blowing up kids on buses.

[@darkdeemen]

Well one is a war hardned guy and the other is a Doctor from a naive Institution

[@jyothishkumar3098]

@@AndyCutright pretty sure you'd learn basic history in schools

[@AndyCutright]

@@jyothishkumar3098 You're probably right. Federation teachers in the 24th century are going to be sure every young person learns about George Washington and the American Revolution 🙄 Super important topic throughout the known galaxy.

[@jyothishkumar3098]

@@AndyCutright not throughout the galaxy, b3cause Crusher's literally from North America, and that's her homeland. It's pathetic that someone from another Galaxy knows their history better than her.

[@kenp7814]

Star Trek Afghanistan

[@Max.R674]

I never really liked this episode. It's just I think because the "terrorists" are shown accurately. Through all the scenes with Beverly. But the other side never gets a closer look. I mean what exactly does "they are gentel compared to my predecessors" mean? We never know exactly how the state behaves towards these independence-seeking citizens. How are they treated in prisons? Apparently not well otherwise his son would hardly have died in one of the prisons. And what I think is the worst part about this is that the terrorist leader is constantly being babbled on by Beverly about what a monster he is, while the Federation, that oh-so-perfect society, is actively supporting this state (on its methods itself, as mentioned, is not really addressed).

[@hardwirecars]

i remember watching this so long ago thinking yeah right kids would not do that fast forward to the iraq/afghan war how god damn wrong i was :(

[@xzeroevil]

those poor kids where brainwashed into that not knowing what it really meant , i wonder what "book" told them it was ok to use people and children in such a manner...........

[@thehellyousay]

a future planet israel, eh?

[@CadenzaKatie]

I swear, this show was written by time travellers

[@DarkMatterX1]

No. Humanity has just always been this way.

[@rabbitsfoot8]

@@DarkMatterX1 and keeps repeating itself

[@Dowlphin]

@@DarkMatterX1 Only once we realize that it has always been this way can we truly make a spiritually empowered decision to change that.

[@alexiachimciuc3199]

This hits hard in the current events from Israel.

[@Boycott_Wendys]

It's literally about them 😊

[@hansolo631]

Why does this guy from a random planet in like 2450 know more about the formation of the united states than your average american in 2024? Aliens always be spouting earth composers and literature lol

[@TheArchitectOfDreams]

He might declare himself George Washington, but he doesn't look anything like a slave owner. He's nothing more than Thomas Paine with his liberal art.

[@Dowlphin]

Thomax Paine

[@Dowlphin]

The last scene is very dear to me. Not only does this contain a hidden (unintended) cynical message about the potential endurance of propaganda, able to survive over ages once people don't really care anymore to get it right, but it also sheds a light on what I call the "karmic balance sheet". It is a spiritual con if you attained the luxury of so-called civilized life by eating the fruits of savagery, and even if you claim it is an unavoidable part of the process of evolving, not fully accepting that so that you can transcend it with a sense of responsibility to free your mind from the self-deception makes guilty and opens new doors for unspeakable suffering to occur again and again. Basically, it is better to accept an inevitability of being a monster than to be a delusional hypocrit, because accepting inevitability is the only thing that has the potential power to overcome that inevitability. Because accepting the perception of a whole unpleasant truth is a sign of strength, a readiness to face truth so that you can live truth, to connect to the highest in order to open a path of grace. - You do not have the power to change what is if what is differs from what you perceive it to be. This is also somewhat related to how the doctrine of positive thinking is often a defeatist escapism. P.S.: For the USA to accept they are a monster, I recommend reading this book: *Settlers - The Mythology of the White Proletariat*

[@LordTyph]

...Is there a rest stop between now and your point?

[@Dowlphin]

@@LordTyph Quiet on the cheap seats.

[@LordTyph]

@@Dowlphin The cheap seats are where you're preaching to.

[@xzeroevil]

A book inspired by maoist theory helping the USA to understand its a monster, who would have thunk it...........no chance that the author used that same lens on mao and the "China" he helped to create through monstrous ignorance and cruelty?

[@Dowlphin]

@@xzeroevil Whataboutism is a defense reaction against looking at truth. And that includes the truth of the chain of causation that turned China into a nemesis for the 'Wild West'. The book is not an ideological pamphlet to advertise maoism but a study of history. (I personally don't like China's approach to their so-called socialism and much prefer the Latin-American version. - There is a text that examines the crimes of capitalism and socialism, focusing on Maoist China in context to Euro-American imperialism. I likely cannot link it here.)

[@tdirtyatl]

🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸🇵🇸

[@sharkdentures3247]

That final speech from FInn needs to be played to College SJw's who decry & try to deconstruct the HEROES of old (Like the Founding Fathers)! (Judging the Past from the comforts of the Present that THEY paid for!) The only thing more pathetic that attacking people who can't fight back, is criticising people who accomplished far more that you ever will! And THEY do BOTH at the same time!

[@anthonydesroches8897]

Red baron disagreed it's the reason he was buried with high honours by the french and the English. He said, THERE IS NO HONOUR IN KILLING UNARMED PEOPLE. ITS THE REASON HE NEVER SHOT DOWN A MAN WHO JUMPED FROM THEIR PLAINS HE SHOT DOWN. ONLY ONE PERSON DID IT IN HIS SQUADRON. WHEN HE LANDED HE WALKED UP PULLED HIS PISTOL AND BLEW THE PILOTS BRAINS OUT.

[@aguyhere7945]

Or just pointing out that these heroes were flawed human beings and not the demi gods American history likes to portray them as.

[@anthonydesroches8897]

@@aguyhere7945 so true in everything u say plus your not given all the info.

[@redpillfreedom6692]

​@@aguyhere7945Except that isn't what they do. Nowadays it's fashionable to judge historical figures by modern standards and and circumstances and to cancel them for being products of their time. That's not a balanced view. That's demonization.