In Defense of Dark Souls 2's PvP (RE: MauLer)

[@jmnthem]

ADDENDUM: Hello there! I'm reading a lot of y'alls feedback and it makes me want to kick myself to think that I didn't include these points in the video. For the sake of adding to the discussion, I'll add some of I missed in the video down below. Also, I'm seeing a fair amount of comments using this video as a means to bash any of the three individuals I've mentioned in the video itself. Y'all may have legitimate reasons but please refrain. Let's tackle ideas, not people. *"When he shows a couple of clips at 30 minutes displaying an absolute disaster of hitboxes/adp/lag and thinks theres nothing wrong with it"* _The best way to describe the visual dissonance that you see in Souls Online is "you are where you were half a second ago." Scott Jund on KZbin made a video on this, 'Understanding Dark Souls PvP Latency.' I referenced it in the video too. With this mentality, a lot of the PvP gameplay can be better understood and even combated reliably. However, I do think this is one of the bigger hurdles for newer players of Souls PvP to get comfortable because few other games have a system like this. Fighting games like Dragonball FighterZ and Tekken try to add an artificial delay so both players see what the other sees, but of course, this adds that delay from your input to seeing the action on the screen. Meanwhile, in Souls, you have instant action-from-input but now have to play off of the knowledge that what you see is a tad behind what's there. I'd encourage you to see Scott Jund's video to understand this more visually too!_ _It's also difficult to determine how the one dagger rolling attack was able to clip the Bastard Sword user so well. Was it because of latency, a jank hitbox, a lack of Agility (roll s) on the part of the Bastard Sword host, or all of the above? It's hard to say._ *"I also noticed that he opposed the statement of "pvp is just stunlock to win" with "well, whole game is stunlock to win" and not by describing the depth of pvp system. Which is strange since it arguably is deeper than just r1 spam."* _This is definitely true but there's even more nuance here. Stunlocking for some weapons like Twinblades and Greatswords are a crucial part of the weapon class whereas others don't have as strong combos. I'm kicking myself that I didn't divulge into that more myself. In fact, a majority of higher players try to win off of the lack of stunlocks or combos, catching other players mid-roll through pseudo-combos and "reads" instead. This is why weapons like Curved Swords, Katanas, Rapiers, and Straights Swords are so dangerous. Also, I forgot to talk about weapon stancing. UGH_ *Stop pretending ds is a high skill complex fighting game lol.* _More over, I'm not in total disagreement that Souls combat is simple. I actually concur that it's almost as simple as MauLer originally put it, with the obvious caveats that I've stated above. The difference here is that he found this gameplay formula to be monotonous for PvP (or unfun, if we can infer this). First, monotony in combat is subjective (and by extension, fun is subjective), and second, I assume that he didn't find this same gameplay monotonous for PvE. This is odd because both PvE and PvP aren't wildly contrasting from one from another. PvP obviously means fighting another living person but the mind games that may occur involve the same mannerisms of locking on, pressing R1/R2/L1/L2, rolling, spacing, etc as PvE would._

[@Crit-Multiplier]

you are a true friend. not bc we shared many delightfull moments together but because you inspire me to keep on. to always try and stay a little longer. i know this is truly offtopic but i ought to say it, sorry for stealing your time. so. i was born a very weak beeing. if not for our current healthcare system i would've died long ago, and still to this day i can feel the presure groing day by day. there is something that kept me warm though trough everything i had to experience. and THAT is in truth only because of people like you. you inspire me to not give up. no matter the hurdle no matter the struggle. i can't say this enough times, but dont give up. never stop beliefing in yourself, because somewhere someone ought to understand you. not because he had to adjust to the same struggles but because he himself had to ADJUST aswell. if you ever feel like there is something you cant do and no one whant's to help you feel free to send a message. i will surely try my best to make your life a little easier, bc that's what you did for me. and i didnt ask or deserve it. but they still were there. the good ones. the true friends. and i salute all of you. in truth im shallow and lifeless but you give my actions meaning. ty.

[@ddm_gamer]

@@Crit-Multiplier Dont u dare go hollow

[@Warcrafter4]

Another addendum you should have for pvp: With either a player or NPC red invader will die in about ~10-20 mins as invaders have a time limit before they begin to "Bleed out" which will cause them to begin to take every increasing amounts of MAX HP DAMAGE. This time limit seems to reset if they get a phantom kill This means even with an ai invader in your world if you wait long enough they will die regardless as in DS2 host wins by default. So the guy your criticizing criticism of npc blocking off bonfires is him being impatient rather then any mechanical issue with the game. Edit: You can see how close you are to a bleed out as a red by how dull/dark your red glow has gotten; In a simular way to shade's timeout looks.

[@jean-philippehaufroid6425]

@@Warcrafter4 While this mecanic exist, I don't think it's really necessary to talk about it since it doesn't come as often as it could. Most of the time, the invasion end in less than 5 minutes with one of the oposent death or the invader leave the world.

[@Warcrafter4]

@@jean-philippehaufroid6425 This was mainly in reference to the other guy talking about how he was locked out of bonfires from an ai invader at the beginning of the level in the gutter. Which by the time he was at the end area bonfire should have been timing out soon so the guy killing himself to be able to use the bonfire was the guy being impatient and not an issue with the game.

[@jmnthem]

_Don't give up, skeleton!_

[@themacleod3893]

Don't give up, dark souls fan-base!

[@Fendri969]

amazing chest ahead ;)

[@zeddzorander1941]

Bear Seek Seek Lest

[@malkaviian]

Be wary of chest , monster

[@Zathren]

Dang it JM, stop making me want to reinstall Dark Soul games.

[@timbogymbro66]

"What's the real problem with PvP, Dungeon Master?" "Latency. It's always latency."

[@SoI_Badguy]

BLUE SPIRIT!!

[@Eric_The_Cleric]

The L A G giveth and the L A G taketh away, dungeon master.

[@darielvillatoro8365]

I read that with the Dungeon Master voice of Saint Riot.

[@El_Naphtali]

@@darielvillatoro8365 Played by Sane Ryan in the movie adaptation of the story.

[@JoviLevi]

@@El_Naphtali SANE, DO THE DUNGEON MASTER VOICE!

[@chronicdelight879]

The fact the Maldron exists should be enough evidence to show players that FROM never intended invasions to be fair or honorable and that they are “working as intended”

[@znightowlz6585]

Chronic Delight exactly, I’ve had to take down videos but of nonstop spam from alt accounts just bc I didn’t bow before a fight or buffed my weapon in a fight club

[@gabrielsantana6161]

lmao

[@PunkZombie1300]

@@zt7044 No, because actual physical assault isn't the same as people fighting each other in a video game. Are you 12?

[@Kurai_69420]

@@zt7044 Imagine equating pvp in a video game to getting assaulted in real life

[@Shourockow]

Luigi Filippo Boccanegra I can feel the anger that some red Boolied you because you’re dumb

[@smbusinessowner]

Tbh this video should have been at least 12 hours long

[@jmnthem]

Be careful for what you wish for.

[@sammyteeplays]

Hell no, I’m not wasting 12 hours of my life.

[@SaintVakos]

@@sammyteeplays Listen at work lol

[@Shourockow]

SmBusinessOwner the only thing worst then listen to 12 hr of a ds2 rant, is making a ds2 rant.

[@Exaltable]

There are 12+ hours worth of things to pick apart in the "objective" rebuttal video series for sure. Mauler doesn't even sound like he has an even very base level of understanding of DS pvp and wrote his entire ass series on one playthrough's experience that he complained all the way through.

[@arielclark6782]

My body tried to self destruct when you made the R6S comparison, and I've never had a point get across to me so well

[@X13565]

The blanket being pulled over our eyes sears the eyeballs Edit: although it may be unintentional

[@bitfunk24]

Because of the high fidelity of games these days they're able to suspend our disbelief to a high degree. We then become unaware of the simplicity and repetitive nature of the actions and strategies we employ whilst playing them.

[@hobosorcerer]

Really? That was a pretty weak comparison imo, especially the environmental bit. As if DS3 has dynamic environmental interactions outside of plunging attacks or accidentally hitting a wall.

[@kabrozkabroz]

@@hobosorcerer But each map is like a crafted jungle gym while R6S maps are more like arenas with bits that the players can change. I think there's merits to the existence of both. Besides. People play call of duty which by your definition would simply be a less fun, less interesting R6S (and I would be inclined to agree) but lots of people enjoy that too.

[@Hahvayz]

personally loved that connection you made

[@nc81455]

Ok lets be real here ubisofts servers are never functioning well

[@AikanaroSauron]

Hey, at least Ubisoft has servers. I'm still waiting for a functional official BfME2 PvP. EA is the devil.

[@PANCAKEMINEZZ]

It's actually funny you bring up the "monotonous" bit because on the latest episode of EFAP (his podcast/stream) Mauler and co spent a good bit of time explaining that boredom was entirely subjective, and in turn would also likely mean monotony. I think in hindsight he'd probably actually agree with some of these points now, as views can change over time. It'd be interesting to see that discussion.

[@beansnrice321]

Making a boring point about monotony sounds soooo Mauler. XD

[@gax1337]

I believe ive heard mauler say that monotony is actually something that could be an objective point, I dont know where it was from though. seeing as monotony means lack of variety/repetitiveness I would agree that you can objectively argue that while boredom is subjective.

[@dradamov]

Why would anyone play FPS games? They are the epitome of monotony, just left-clicking enemy player models ad nauseum. omg so monotonous, boring, ugh... kappa

[@dradamov]

@LeadFaun well the kappa thing does indeed prove to be a sign of sarcastic remark, in this case, of comedic variety.

[@cpl.kokirikid5845]

@@dradamov my reply is getting deleted repeatedly, so blah blah blah something something autism something something homosexual from 4 chan

[@fpsman827]

For something that is light, yet comprehensive, you've outdone yourself. Nerd made, nerd approved.

[@alephkasai9384]

I wouldn't really call 54 minutes light.

[@fpsman827]

@@alephkasai9384 The original videos span much longer than this one. I call this light because of that. Yes, the contents are quite comprehensive. However, it doesn't feel like a waste of time to go into details, and the commentary/script is quite enjoyable. It's just not bloated with (too much) nonsense.

[@alephkasai9384]

@@fpsman827 Oh yeah definitely, it's hard to watch Mauler's vids all the way through without doing something else. Most probably I have a short attention span but I wouldn't say it's too hard to grab it for an hour if you do it right.

[@barnebuss2190]

At the end of the day, I think we can all agree... Red man bad

[@SpaceElvisInc]

Red man saved my life once #notallredmen

[@thegames4565]

@@SpaceElvisInc #RedLivesMatter

[@joshuakim5240]

Hey, as a red man if i invade a host refusing to fight and emoting with the beg gesture, i leave them some extra late game gear drops, an effigy or two, then leave.

[@shaynehughes6645]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/oGiyeXptqa2lhK8

[@pierredunn68]

@@joshuakim5240 i had an invader that kileed me and my friend im our worlds and then if invaded just left effigies and despawned. well it was honorable. to be honest invasions are made to make u suffer. u learn pve, easily get through locations, what stops u? invaders u r not good fighting at, it just how it works, i makes u act more versatile, think, adapt and survive nomatter what u face, thats why invasions are working as intended nomatter what, even with latency it still what it is meant to be, a new challenge.

[@Skullivon]

In that Belfry hexer example, those dark orbs weren't even dealing that much damage. MauLer just had absolutely no vigor.

[@RobotronSage]

Wasn't even a twink. That hexer was wearing the same sorcerer robe you get when you start the game and create a character. Mau*L*er didn't even know how to hold down B to slide down a ladder... Pretty sure the dude is the very definition of the word ''Scrub'' Also how can you decide to casually ''descend'' down a ladder when you saw the ''xxx has iNvAdEd'' message and because you are playing dark souls you should expect the invader to be waiting at the bottom of the ladder? Dude i just can't even

[@Skullivon]

@@RobotronSage That was the Hexer robe, not the basic sorcerer robe. MauLer did slide down the ladder. And while we know to be careful about blind ladders, that kind of gamesense comes with experience. While I agree that the invader could hardly be called a twink, MauLer's gameplay isn't the problem. It's his faulty analysis and salty attitude.

[@mothermushroom_]

@@Skullivon his gameplay is pretty awful though.. he knows theres an invader waiting for him down the ladder as he got the 'Invaded by' message and hes at the top of the level with nowhere to go but down. He then gets attacked and instead of fighting back, shielding, or running away he does the unthinkable. Waste all of his stamina by rolling in circles by the ladder then after like 8 hex casts he remembers the stairway he came up and walks down it. Not runs, but walks. Then he heals on the stairs where he knows he can still be shot if the invader walks down even a single step. This is just awful gameplay, there is nothing wrong with the game or the invader here

[@upsettispaghettivulture]

lol your fucking avatar is scraps of life

[@Skullivon]

@@upsettispaghettivulture Hell yeah. Gotta represent the best area denial spell in the series.

[@En_Joshi-Godrez]

So this is a RE: Mauler RE: Hbomberguy RE: "the haters"?

[@just0sex0fever]

Not sure if you implied that Matt is a hater. But don't forget to include him in the chain - his criticism was superb and Hbomb really did him dirty in a lot of arguments.

[@En_Joshi-Godrez]

@@just0sex0fever I refer to people criticising ds2 as haters in jest. Hbomber really believed these people were just blindly hating on the game, which is why I refere to his video as a response to that.

[@RD-uf6gw]

@@just0sex0fever That Hbomb dumbass' video was embarrassing to listen to. Lots of snide jabs and condescending bullshit, iirc. And I say that as someone who likes DaS2 and doesn't appreciate the mess Matthewmatosis started with his video.

[@just0sex0fever]

@@Mia_2512 Really recommend you to watch it. He is not just critical either. So do enjoy the watch :)

[@just0sex0fever]

@@En_Joshi-Godrez Gotcha. Still tho, if you would include Matt's video in the chain - would be longer. And.....SUBJECTIVELY funnier ;)

[@MrT13X]

When I watched Mauler's response series 3 years ago, this segment about PvP really bothered me. Happy to see such a detailed counterargument!

[@blindeyedblightmain3565]

Only that segment? I think his first 3 hours were pretty decent and objective criticism, but later he started cherry picking like crazy, while praising other soulsborne games for the same things, that he hated in DS2. Good thing, that later he made an apology video for being wrong.

[@Heavente]

@@blindeyedblightmain3565 He made lot of bad arguments.

[@joshuakim5240]

Yeah, honestly he was good on the PvE's level design (albeit he doesn't seem to know that this is due to the original game being scrapped and a rushed, sloppily slapped together assets had to be done to meet the deadline) but fell short hard when it came to the PvP critiques.

[@Slender_Man_186]

@@blindeyedblightmain3565 I’d say 90% of his arguments were cherry picking or could apply to all of the other games. If you’re going to criticize a game that’s part of a series, you need to hold it to that series’ standards, but he simply doesn’t do that.

[@harrygarris6921]

@@Slender_Man_186 Well it's really hard to talk for 10 hours about anything and remain consistent. It's a much better critique of the single player section of the game than anyone else has made. I agree that he should have admitted that he doesn't know anything about pvp though instead of basically saying the rest of the game is shit so it must be shit too even though I didn't try it.

[@stainmaster2630]

The man with the bastard sword was literally just getting wrecked lmao.

[@benrogencamp258]

I always thought this segment of Maulers series stood out as being particularly poorly researched. Mauler states that he did something like 10 playthroughs in preparation for the scripting. I think it's also important to note, that we are a rare and particularly strange breed of souls players. 90% of players will never touch invasions and will immediately disconnect when they get invaded. I think that as the core of the argument, Dark Souls PvP will always feel a little wrong due to the poor net coding. Even when everything is working as intended, the latency and quirks around connection will mean that fighting an uphill battle. This is pretty well represented in the Scott Jund video where he hacked LAN PvP into the game. By removing the wildcard of latency, it completely trains the game into a very tight and highly skill based fighting game, it's impressive. Anyway good 1 year old video, on a 3 year old series, responding to a 4 year old critique about a 7 year old game.

[@Killerk328]

The quarantine got Saint posting regularly and a 50 minute video from JM

[@jmnthem]

L Kago Count your blessings. This may never happen again.

[@PunkZombie1300]

@@jmnthem I expect a two hour video next.

[@kielbasamage]

@@jmnthem RELEASE THE RATS!

[@timpeterson175]

St riot vertically integrating

[@qasderfful]

Damn it Memezaki, release Elden Ring already, people are losing their minds!

[@WolfHreda]

How much more are you losing your mind now, after the PS5 event?

[@DronesOverTheMoon]

only a dream...

[@willysmithereens]

Yup, losing my mind trying to farm OOS Damp bloodgems for my bloodtinge build...

[@morp9426]

Don't give up, skeleton!

[@arnavkalgutkar6169]

@@morp9426 OooOOooHhhhh

[@memory6686]

A lot of the comments here get rather aggressive toward MauLer, I want say that JM never intended for this video to do that, and explicitly stated that this covered only 2% if not less of MauLer's response, and on a portion he had little experience in. Edit: I agree with this video and think it's very well made, just to be clear.

[@s2korpionic]

Let's be honest here, in some parts I think he was quite unfair in his critique towards DS2.

[@yellowbelly7863]

@MasterMoonfire hate to tell ya but you cant defend his opinion like its fact. Like the game or not its subjective 100% like every other game ever made.

[@shadowrosegaming3566]

I will say this ds2 is the game I pvp most in so i agree with this vid

[@alexdittman1135]

He just sounds like a condescending butthurt b*tch imo.

[@correctcritic9749]

@MasterMoonfire You're not allowed to bring facts, that makes Ds2 fans rage

[@emanuelc.8579]

Fortunately for me, this video is 54 minutes long.

[@Stryfe52]

Oh no

[@starsound_5184]

Tbh a lot of the PvP clips are sad to watch because honestly, the players playing kinda suck... then whine when their terrible choices get them killed and how "unfair" it is.

[@DragonessYT]

It's like Sekiro. People will say the combat and the game are terrible when in fact they're just bad at the game. Hell I know someone like that, and because of the *7 frames* of input lag the game has they decided that the game was shit rather than actually adapt and overcome the issues the game has.

[@Slender_Man_186]

@@DragonessYT 7 frames of input lag is hell in what’s essentially a fighting game.

[@mphylo2296]

That's mauler to a tee. An average, inept guy who thinks he's an expert on any field that interests him. He's a bad film critic and he's a bad game critic.

[@max7971]

Most of the footage is not his. Don’t you see the avatars and different voices? He got the footage of two of his friends who played the game blindly to represent the average experience of a new player. I’m sure that you can roll through and play around wanky hit boxes and unresponsive movement with enough experience, but this game is jarringly bad if you play it after ds1

[@Mongrelntruder]

@@Slender_Man_186 not if you don’t suck🤣 get over it

[@woodoolong7941]

Mauler argues that hbomberguy's points fall short because he cherry-picks, and I agree that he is guilty of that, but Mauler does exactly that in his segment on pvp. All of the clips he shows are either PvE, or streamers getting killed by other players with mechanics of the game.

[@dodojesus4529]

Yeah i like his videos but this bit was just an atrocious bit. i understand why he used the pve pvp as you can replicate that easier but its still quite poor

[@ettoreozzy9932]

Yeah Mauler PvP part of the series needed more work and used cherry-picking too

[@vktrlndwll95]

Unfortunately he probably got a taste of the more tryhard part of the fandom. I try to be a bit more lenient against obvious newer players just so they WONT get maulers experience, but I can't say the same attitude is being held by other parts of our playerbase. Some of them even argue that you SHOULD throw the kid into the deep end in a sink or swim fashion to really test their ability, and they may be right there, actually. However, I am still confused about why he included PvE when talking about the PvP.

[@KucheKlizma]

​@@vktrlndwll95 The PVE enemies for him are the "tryhards". What you do is irrelevant to new players, you're but a speck of dust on a windshield.

[@MEGABUMSTENCH]

@@vktrlndwll95 sometimes im nice to the green'd up guy. but sometimes he just wont take it and goes hard. so i have to turn sweaty lol

[@SmilesEdgeworth]

Another point to be brought up about the "unfairness" of the example invasion at 18:05 , what did he think was going to happen when his stood still right in front of a spellcaster and drank Estus? At that point, it's not the game being unfair, it's your ineptitude.

[@ecto_specto4521]

Some people can't recognize the difference, whether it's from pride or lack of knowledge

[@goldenfox334]

Shit you learn not to do that with bosses and normale ingame enemys 😂😂😂dont touch that estis flask until you know its safe

[@max7971]

It’s not even him playing. Can’t you recognize the different voice in the background during the footage? This was the dude’s first play through, and the point was that he didn’t know that spell existed yet. You can’t learn how to counter something that you don’t know exists.

[@max7971]

It’s astonishing how some people are so smug when making the comment trying to personally attack someone’s skill while missing the point entirely.

[@SmilesEdgeworth]

@@max7971 It's a year old comment, get over it.

[@ricardosavagestrike]

The NPCs in Scholar are legendary; from Bradley of the Old Guard to Maldron, FROM has never shown so much awareness of its audience.

[@Tulip_bip]

even coming from someone like me who really doesn't like ds2, the npc AI is amazing. it's kind of scary how human like they are... seeing a barrel sliding across the floor up to my back killed me lmao

[@AkosKovacs.Author.Musician]

I like mauler but he never gave me the impression that he had any experience of being an invader, so he doesn't know what perspective we're coming from and what disadvantage we have depending on which souls game we talk about and how we approach an engagement and the fact the to an extent we also flying blind when we crack that red-eye orb, not always knowing what we get.

[@palidinicchaos3047]

Indeed, not an invader. AKA has more than a one percent chance of being a decent human being.

[@realpatriot1769]

@@palidinicchaos3047 Imagine getting traumatised by an online game, grow up

[@dodojesus4529]

@@palidinicchaos3047 my man invade the hosts are the true monsters

[@AkosKovacs.Author.Musician]

@@palidinicchaos3047 Man, Invaders are the force of good. We prevent the overpopulation of phantoms aka fun vampires and protect the native npcs from the abusive hosts.

[@palidinicchaos3047]

@@AkosKovacs.Author.Musician No, you don't. The phantoms just get summoned again and again. At best you slow them down a little.

[@Alrekr666]

A video analysing a response about another dude's video (Mauler) criticizing another guy's (hbomberguy) video that ague about another person's point (Matthewmatosis) about Dark Souls 2. What a time to be alive.

[@MaxPower2719]

I played this “extremely monotonous” PVP part of the game for well over 2000 hours 🤷‍♂️ Sucks to be me, I guess.

[@viachesslove9907]

indeed, sucks to be you.

[@9Skiddlerip9]

Nice name. I get it.

[@AtreyusNinja]

Same here

[@BoxyBrown717]

Ayyy, I spent thousands of hours playing DS1 pvp and I enjoy it. I'm also willing to admit that it's not a well constructed part of the game, like pvp in all the souls games is clearly an afterthought by the devs.

[@terencebc]

Well yeah, he said you’re free to enjoy it even though it’s not well designed.

[@PleasantWheat]

I feel so bad for the B team making this game, they had to rush to release because the publisher shaved 2 YEARS off the development time, its easily my favourite of the soulsbornes, warts and all, its just so rough to think about what this game COULD have been

[@alephkasai9384]

Big sad man. I always wondered myself what it could have been. I can only fantasize. Some of the areas like Forest of Fallen Giants, the earlier parts of Iron Keep and Dragon Aerie were pretty well designed. Then there were Heide and Drangleic Castle which felt really rushed

[@raven75257]

@@alephkasai9384 the game also has plenty of empty corners and empty and just pointless rooms. I guess they were just abandoned because of the development time.

[@raphicoco]

Sunbro Adresse I am sorry. May I just point you again at the 2 YEARS that has been erased? If you know ANYTHING about game development or in any media. You would know that it is CATASTROPHIC! The others were more like ( we don’t have time to finish all our plans so we will have to cut corners so that we can make it closer to a finish product) wile DS2 was more ( ALL your hard work is now in the trash and you will have to make a finish product in like 6 or 7 months). Plz use your brain.

[@raphicoco]

Sunbro Adresse Ok look. You really seams to not get it. Yes ds1 and 3 had a lot of cuts and the story changed but here is the difference. There development still went great. The problem was that they didn’t have enough time to finish all of it and needed to change things or cut corners to have a finalized product. The only thing for ds3 that really went bad was the hole baby killing thing. But that is a normal rough development. Now imagine the exact SAME THING but a hole 2 YEARS of work GONE as well. Look, I am going to give you a more figurative example. Imagine you have to build a stone statue with the deadline of 3 weeks. It goes pretty well but you also decided to be experimental and trying new tings. Sometimes it works and gives the statue nice details but some doesn’t work and leave a mark on the statue. Now 2 weeks pass and you have to finish it. But the statue is not finished and the marks are still there. So you build around it or hide it. Get creative to make the unfinished parts part of the creation. And voila! Your statue is done. Not what you had in mind at the beginning but a finish product. That would be DS1 and DS3 Now, you have to make an another statue to make also with the deadline of 3 weeks. This time, your boss asks you to make something bigger with way more new experimental parts. So you do and the development is not that bad, but you know you won’t have the time to finish all of it and the boss knows. But your boss is thinking of asking the client if he can get more time for the statue. At the second week, the boss ask for more time, but the answer is him getting fired, replaced and a sledge hammer on the statue you were working so hard on. Now, you have to build a new one from scratch and you still just have one last week to do! So with the incredible help of your new boss, you are able to do so and even was able to use some scrap and pieces of the old one and glue it up on the new one. But cracks and unfinished parts was inevitable. That was the development of DS2 Do you see now the difference?

[@Stryfe52]

Sunbro Adresse Jeez, wish From Soft better spaced out their games.

[@joyce_rx]

In 3 years, someone will defend DS2 yet again but itll be a speedrun

[@Yourmom-cx8fw]

In defends of ds2 no hit all bosses run

[@ricardosavagestrike]

Micromachines Guy Defends Dark Souls II

[@thaddeusgenhelm8979]

Citing Maldron as an example of the game or the designers behaving badly or w/e just hurts me. Maldron is, like, the perfect NPC invader, and because of his shenanigans you get some amusing counterplay out of it, like someone I saw who got a big shield and hard guarded the stairway and almost killed him by kicking him off the edge. When someone cites one of the *best* examples of the game running properly as a negative I find it hard to take their stance on the thing entirely seriously. The fact that the 2nd fight with Maldron can get screwed up by having an enemy walk in the door he's trying to run out of and him getting stuck running in place instead of a fight happening probably isn't working quite as intended though. Though it's pretty hilarious when it happens.

[@Slender_Man_186]

Maldron is my spirit animal, he’s the reason why I got gud with the Heide K***ht Lance, amazing weapon btw.

[@ShinxBOOM247]

19:20 To add further context, you can get to Felkin and get dark orb in less than 10 minutes from the start of the game if you're quick enough. All you have to do is kill the Dragon Rider, and you're good

[@mr.sillydog3981]

54 minutes of JM? It must be my birthday.

[@ardvark3131]

Unfortunately for you.

[@Razruer]

It's the Sillydog!

[@thedashingsaint4455]

Happy Bday Silly *throws repair powder*

[@SahnigReingeloetet]

Silly!

[@ecto_specto4521]

Happy birthday

[@errantoverflow4828]

Looks like I finally came out of the rabbit hole of Dark Soul 2 video essays. Overall, listening to your defense of the multiplayer without ignoring it's inherent flaws was a very entertaining and also an oddly soothing experience. It's a shame this it's just a response to a video, because there is so much to talk about the multiplayer, down to the very foundations. I really appreciated the conclusion at the end, you made me appreciate even more all of the souls games. Stay safe, Ashen one.

[@thechosenofmystra9397]

I feel like he only had 10 minutes of pvp because he got checked and wrecked.

[@dalf_souls2199]

You know the point about stunlocking enemies (even though SotfS gives most npc invaders enough poise to resist stunlocks) reminds me about a skill wall in Dark souls 3, since most of the enemies, even tough enemies like lothric knights, corvians, lycanthropes, gravewardens and many npc invaders don't have poise you can simply r1 them even to zero stamina without being punished at all, which leads to a playstyle that falls flat against enemies that do have poise, black knights, great crabs, the cathedral knights, notably the pyromancer gru in smouldering lake Also interesting how he used the npc that slow casts great heal instead of licia, who both in world and during the invasion can heal unlimited times her full health extremely quickly, licia is much harder to punish not only because of the lightning fast cast speed but because her heal mimics her wrath of god cast animation, which deals incredible amounts of damage to the player. I would say licia is one of the less fair npc invaders if you aren't sufficiently able to outdamage her casts 30:42 literally just walks up behind you as you mash r1 to backstab but that's bs? lol oh yeah wifi fights are a trip, sometimes the host and sometimes phantoms will just freeze or float around and then 10 seconds later your health bar explode as everything catches back up

[@Gakusangi]

In MY experience, most of those enemies have an anti-stunlock move they can perform to get free. After a by a Lothric Knight WILL just turn and hit you while you're trying to stunlock them, same with the Grave Wardens.

[@WelcomeToDERPLAND]

Probably didnt use Licia because he didnt know the interaction exists.

[@sircrookie115]

Spent about 300 hours of DS2 in PVE, spent 700+ hours doing PVP XD

[@sammyteeplays]

Venz CrooKie as a Dark Souls 2 veteran, what is your opinion on the PvP in the game?

[@sircrookie115]

@@sammyteeplays i enjoyed the high skill celing with all the invincibility frames that you could get from back stepping it was very unique in that aspect, i also enjoyed the dlc weapons such as the ice rapier and the bone glove, made some charecters based entirely around them. i also think DS2 has THE BEST dragon form in all the dark souls games, dragon covenant pvp was great. The brotherhood of blood covenant was where i spent a lot of time aswell, that stuffs great

[@lebron73]

Same, the PvP is so good I bought the game a couple of days ago on ps4 again (around 800 hrs on ps3)

[@TheStraightestWhitest]

Sounds like me in DS3. 400 hours on PvE, 1000+ on PvP.

[@sircrookie115]

@@TheStraightestWhitest yeah i have similar time for all the dark souls games and bloodborn

[@snowmochi]

I'll be honest, I don't even play any of the Souls-Born series, I just like listening to you.

[@Lanewreck]

Still to this day, as punishing as ds2 PvP is, I still love it more than ds3 pvp, not saying ds3 PvP is bad at all, just liked the consistency of consequences when you swing wild in ds2.

[@Sky-Dweller]

Lanewreck1988 bro ds3 pvp is bad, magic isn’t good, straight swords and estocs are the only good weapons really, and there’s just a stupid amount of stamina, r2’s aren’t good, it’s only r1’s, no back step frames, poise isn’t good, etc.

[@matthewcoyle4131]

@@Sky-Dweller You must not watch this channel much. Jim has some pretty solid videos on Dark Souls 3 pvp and just how complex the tech in it is.

[@Lanewreck]

@@matthewcoyle4131 exactly.

[@Sky-Dweller]

Matthew Coyle lol the game is literally devoid of any complexity, and half the weapons plus magic are not even viable.

[@matthewcoyle4131]

@@Sky-Dweller I agree that magic is sub par, especially in pvp, but there have been updates that improved many melee weapons that were sub par and nerfed many op melee weapons. Aquamarine dagger and greatlance for example received powerful buff which made them incredible tools in the hands of an expert far surpassing R1 spam.

[@Scorched-Knight]

I agree with most of maulers assessment of ds2, however the section on pvp was pretty poor in comparison. I still think ds2 is cool,but it does deserve some of the criticism it gets. Good video JM, glad someone touched on that part of his response! A lot of people incorrectly make conclusions about the pvp in these games, even people who play them. Like how other souls creators treated bloodborne pvp early on. Also fuck yes we need a good region lock, and a ping filter... these games online would only benefit from it

[@janehrahan5116]

I disssagree with this, I think in a lot of cases he cherrypicked as hard as hbomberguy. Often being blatantly hypocritical in his critiques of the game.

[@acolddarkgentlebruh8205]

The main problem with DS2 is the controls, the weapons, moves etc are fine and very fleshed out, but when you have a sluggish control scheme it leads to such a lack of combat variety. DS1 had fewer weapons, fewer attacks etc, but there was all kinds of different dodging techniques and strategies, when it comes to DS2 however, every duel looks almost exactly the same imo...

[@joshuakim5240]

@@acolddarkgentlebruh8205 Actually, DkS2 has a staggering amount of strategic control techs, but none of them are in the not-OP-as-shit weapons (*cough* red iron, spantier, ice rapier, *cough*) so most people never learn of them. The spellcasting weapons have certain combos with different spells that depending on their movesets, reapers have a stunlock tech, backsteps have i-frames and can be timed to set up parries, there is a very difficult riposte combo (the PvP streamers could time Flame Swathe with a riposte to hit at the same time for a 1-shot), and powerstance opens up many options. Dks2's PvP's primary problem is that, unlike DkS1 and DkS3, there is no incentive whatsoever to learn any of the above advanced techs because just slapping on a buff with one of the big cheese weapons and spamming attacks does a lot more for a lot less effort. The controls are fine, but the lack of incentive to use the massive arsenal's options results in most people using the same stuff and fighting the same way because that's the easiest way with the best results.

[@acolddarkgentlebruh8205]

​@@joshuakim5240 The controls are not fine, if anything it's the controls most of all that nullify all it's good points, because they're slow and not tight enough. Most of the reasons weapons and stuff are more viable in Dark Souls 2 without a lot of effort is because it's just slower. Reapers stunlock in 3 too, but they're just very easy to dodge because of the s and speed.

[@joshuakim5240]

@@acolddarkgentlebruh8205 You do know that all 3 Souls games, and even Bloodborne, control extremely similarly aside from some L2 usage, right? You're confusing game speed and game controls, which are 2 completely different things that have nothing to do with each other since the games control near identically but do the same actions at very different speeds.

[@mahoufoxxo]

I always enjoy how you take a step back from your video and throw something inspiring in. It feels more personal. Most other youtubers feel like they mass produce their work with no flavor or takeaway, to just fill a quota.

[@Zathren]

If you don't like invasions just do what I do. Run back to the last bonfire/lamp that you spawned in from, and do the pray emote. I even tap left and right on the d-pad so it looks like I'm unarmed. More often than not, the invader leaves. They didn't want a free kill. They wanted a fight. But when they do take their free kill, I instantly get my souls/echoes back. Win win.

[@rodrigodelemos9048]

Why do this in the first place instead of just playing offline, it's just boring. I'd rather fight even if it means getting absolutely rekt

[@fernandosegovia8806]

Invasions are not the only thing playing online offers, still, there are better ways to deal with them.

[@ZefulStarson]

@@rodrigodelemos9048 And you are a perfect example of why, even if the systems were perfect, dark souls PVP will always be flawed. People don't play according to your orthodoxy? "Hurr play offline scrub." No, shut up, and stop trying to fucking tell people that the way they play games are wrong unless you're willing to accept that shit being turned around on you.

[@PunkZombie1300]

@@ZefulStarson Nobody's (at least that I'm aware of- I'm sure you could find someone somewhere who says this, but the vast majority of invaders won't) saying they're "playing the game wrong" because they give up when they're invaded. They're just saying there's an option to play offline to avoid invasions altogether. If you're summoning then there's no reason to give up since you outnumber the invader, and if you just want to look at the messages and phantoms then that's a sacrifice you'll have to make, I guess, but you can't complain about being invaded when there's an option to not be invaded in the main menu.

[@Zathren]

For those saying I could play offline, valid. But I like leaving and receiving comments. Otherwise I would play offline.

[@VioStarclad]

I did a ton of DS2 PVP and loved every minute of it. My favorite weapon was the Crypt Blacksword which was slow but does a ton of damage and has really fast R1 followups and an insane degree of pivot. You can use it to quickly catch backstab attempts, and the rolling R1 has a wide sweeping attack that can be directionally manipulated despite how limiting it looks. It's also deceptive in its recovery frames, letting you sneak in easy parries after purposefully wiffing an attack that the katana bros are gonna want to punish reflexively. Now I DO think the NPC invasions are bad because half are braindead and stunlockable ad infinitum and the other half can actually cheat and not play by the rules other players use.

[@Serparus]

We gaming kiddo's time to abuse poise while it lasts.

[@highvoltage7559]

I find Mauler's DS2 video series to be a great representation of what it means to response to a video that is filled with loaded statements and strawman arguments. But that PvP section of his video seemed pretty half-assed to be fair.

[@VenomSapphire]

Lmaoo I definitely don’t think hbombs dark souls 2 video is good by any stretch but maulers 8 hour series is overly wordy, meandering, wayyyy too long and he has this idea that his criticism can somehow be “objective” mauler is an awful content creator with an ego so large it’s actually hilarious

[@VenomSapphire]

LeadFaun yes of course they’re subjective. Just as maulers are. Objective criticism of art is not a thing. Not in the sense of calling something “objectively” bad

[@VenomSapphire]

Dharc Daniel yah I agree. Mauler doesn’t.

[@RobotronSage]

yeah pretty much i like how the video is named something like ''a moderate view'' and the first things i'm hearing is ''it's a big smelly dog poop'' Real mature dude. Real mature.

[@RobotronSage]

@@VenomSapphire ''Lmaoo I definitely don’t think hbombs dark souls 2 video is good by any stretch but maulers 8 hour series is overly wordy, meandering, wayyyy too long and he has this idea that his criticism can somehow be “objective” mauler is an awful content creator with an ego so large it’s actually hilarious'' *100% this* Can't believe anyone is taking the dude seriously and how the community isn't telling him en masse to '' *git gud, scrub* '' Am kinda dissapointed in the human race / dark souls community right now.

[@liamace1107]

A guy I happen to start watching recently uploads a response to a series that's a response to another response to a critique, all of which I happen to have seen... This is too perfect, there's no way I can pass this up

[@Por_QPine]

JM, thanks again for this wonderful video! Your points are solid, you’re civil and you put just the right amount of your JM flair into it! Please please please keep it up, and I hope you stay safe too!👍

[@Lakanus]

Hmm...im around 15 minutes in, and i feel like a lot of Maulers comments were too uninformed to warrant a serious response video. "Its still a poop" "All Soulsborne games have terrible PvP" Everyone making PvP builds and playing years after the game release is just a Masochist :p "The PvP revolves around attacking until your stamina runs out" Nobody with any PvP experience will die to a R1 spammer unless there's 3 of you against them. "PvP will usually find a way to ruin your current run" Yes. If only there was a farmable item that turns the level enemies against the invaders, or if you could disable getting invaded at the bonfire, or play offline while still retaining all non-online play functions. If only... there was a covenant that automatically summons players to your world to protect you whenever you get invaded, which you can join two minutes after reaching Majula.🤷 But props to Mauler for not talking too much about it relatively to his Dark Souls 2 PvE saga though. I agree that Elden Ring might have a lot of these comments, but there's surely gotta be a video around that has more valid Dark Souls 2 PvP critiques than this to address. Looking forward to your Elden Ring content btw :D

[@dalf_souls2199]

tbf I am a masochist, I love being beaten by 4 people at once, I love it when I get clipped once and 2 or 3 ultra weapons annihilate me in an instant, love it also I have no clue what he means by "ruin your run" you can just pick your souls back up, as a host you will usually be invaded near the beginning of a level where it is easy to pick your souls up, and dealing with loss is a core mechanic of dark souls, "you will lose your souls, over and over again" is literally in the opening of Dark souls 2's introduction to the firekeepers, even if you get griefed by corrosive urn spamming trolls armour and weapon repairs are very cheap, rings are the only thing that cost more than a thousand souls on average to repair But as an invader if you die as a dark spirit your bloodstain is dropped where you died in the other persons world, lore wise this makes zero sense, or why other spirits and phantoms don't leave their bloodstain when they die as a spirit in other's worlds, but mechanically it's even worse, I remember invading at the start of catacombs of carthus, just after defeating the abyss watchers and being put into smouldering lake, I died and lost all my souls which was big oof, especially since I wasn't expecting to lose my souls as an spirit

[@darkthorpocomicknight7891]

Kinda a no-win problem if you respond to Mauler - well you acknowledge he had a point -- if you ignore him - he says well you refuse to debate THEREFORE. His number of bad logical arguments is sometimes breathtaking.

[@DB1Dragoon]

@@darkthorpocomicknight7891 What he has only ever refused two people to a debate and they refused him first anyways.

[@AlexanderMartinez-kd7cz]

he's clearly a complete newbie in everything related to PVP, it's understandable. still funny, but understandable.

[@RobotronSage]

'' If only... there was a covenant that automatically summons players to your world to protect you whenever you get invaded'' My fucking God you're right Fromsoft: Create covenant specifically to help inexperienced players with invasions (the covenant is actually pretty cool conceptually) Nobody: MauLer: Well this game is a load of shit and PVP makes me completely helpless as a player

[@Lord-of-something]

Oh that curved sword running r1 range :') oh the memories

[@jean-philippehaufroid6425]

And those Katana poking range...

[@iamamish]

Great video JM. Listening to the litany of complaints about PvP, including seemingly large stamina pools, invaders using weapons the host cannot yet use, imbalanced healing, etc., it's clear that if you stop and are objective, these arguments don't make any sense at all. For instance, bosses have huge stamina pools, PVE uses weapons the host cannot use (a point you made as well), and healing of course is imbalanced - in favor of the host. When is the last time you heard somebody complain that a boss was unfair because it used attacks the host didn't have? All this demonstrates that what really aggravates new players about invasions is losing to another human. Losing to other people grinds our gears in a way losing to AI does not.

[@BoxyBrown717]

Not at all an apt comparison. The AI is predicable compared to a human and the AI cannot abuse Soul Memory like a person can. Sorry, but it's always annoying on any of the souls games when I start a new run and I get invaded by someone who has twinked their character to crush new ones, I just learned to accept the flaw.

[@pockystyx4087]

I fucking had so much fun with DkS2's pvp. The blue invasions, helping people, the pvp zones, the dueling. The build variety, oh my god the amount of fun silly shit the community came up with was too much to keep up with! I was honestly kinda saddened when a lot of that fun and variety was gone from DkS3.

[@RegeroTerra]

It's amazing that 5 seconds of the Majula theme brings back so many memories... I'm gonna go play DS2 again.

[@wubwubdododo5656]

I have listened to Maulers ds2 series more times than I care to count, for reasons I will not divulge. But thank you for this! While I agree with almost all points Mauler makes regarding DS2, I have always thought his conclusions on the PvP were vastly inferior to the rest!

[@OverFjell]

One of the more recent EFAP's MauLer conceeded that the PvP section of his video was half-baked and would go with JM's take on PvP rather than his own as it wasn't really massively relevant overall to his series.

[@malakim1773]

I've been watching a lot of MauLer recently, starting with his DS2 vid and I really enjoy your way of presenting, as well as his, so this is a very welcome video to watch

[@hhm4480]

I was watching mauler's series a few weeks ago! The only thing I really thought seemed off about his argument was his pvp bit, thanks for covering this.

[@I_Kick_Jawas]

I'm baffled by the majority of these arguments since they can all be applied to ANY Souls game, so why is DS2 singled out? Is it because it's slightly different and different is bad so we must all hate on different? I mean, I'm never an advocate for the whole "git gud" argument, but if that applied to anything or anyone, it would be these people used as examples, like the No Man's Warf invasion, or the NPC invasion in the DLC with the cleric that can heal.

[@raingraver5892]

I've heard people talk shit about how long mauler's response is. This in-depth analysis of 10 minutes of pvp talk lasted almost an hour and he used mauler's color coded script analysis strategy. That's why mauler's analysis of hbomber's hour long video was sooooo long. It's because nothing was skipped. No statement spoken was left alone.

[@AkiraSatou]

There's NOTHING wrong with a lengthy dissection of everything someone says in an argument. In fact since MauLer went through EVERYTHING he made the best objective critique I've seen so far, which upsets me because damn near everything he said about the PVP is just incorrect. How could he do so well everywhere else with his analysis and then drop the ball with the PVP? Maybe he just didn't research it well enough.

[@just0sex0fever]

@@AkiraSatou Probably was not thinking of PVP as part of the game but rather a "gimmick". He mentioned couple of times that he can probably find a lot of problems in his DS2 response series as they were made pretty early in his youtube carrier and some of his views have changed.

[@thomasmuandersontheneousul4184]

I have to tell you regarding his work on film (TLJ, Skywalker, etc.) that is NOT true his focus is extremely selective and goes through most scenes but only has comments on a handful that mean much - length might be for other $$$$$$$$$$$$$ reasons LOL

[@AkiraSatou]

@@thomasmuandersontheneousul4184 To my knowledge his videos aren't monetized mate. Unless they are and I'm stupid. In either case a good dissection is a lengthy one, and lengthy videos happen to have good ad revenue. Either or it seems coincidental

[@saratrawnik6527]

I am all for long point by point responses, but why the hell they are in video form? I'd love to read his 8h analysis (even as a script) not watch it. Paper is faster in that regard, because you don't have to wait for mouth to form words. And since some people mentioned he isn't monetized, why make it so unapproachable?

[@TN-lw5dt]

JM: we're already halfway through this year Me, curling up into a ball and crying: haha yeah how funny is that its funny right haha

[@MotivationExMe]

It just means we're closer to 2077

[@apophisstr6719]

Despite all the short comings of Dark Souls 2, it was somehow still the Souls that I enjoyed and played the most (be it pvp or pve), I think that should explained something.

[@liamace1107]

If there's anything to learn from this it's that you will undoubtedly have a better PVP experience in Japan or America than you would in Europe, Australia or New Zealand.

[@ashura9699]

This debate will never end, even once Elden Ring 3 comes out. Good video though, I liked it.

[@jonathankkennedy]

29:00 me, laughing about the existence of the real final boss of this game, that cleric lady who turns the rotunda at the end of her questline and the nightmarish horrors that await in her small world. Pretty sure she also heals (I think? That or she just has an impossibly sized health pool combined with an almost certain one hit ko wrath of the gods spam that turned my days into a waking horror)

[@Edgariki]

You can punch her from the ledge by bare fists and she always would stagger.

[@jonathankkennedy]

@@Edgariki sure, but you don't get the rewards for doing that, so it should never be done.

[@Edgariki]

@@jonathankkennedy the only real reward for killing her by invading is spell Soothing Sunlight (52 faith). Which only useful in coop, and its heals less, then Great heal and Great heal excerpt (28 and 14 faith need it) Rotonda key are drop from dead body, set and catalyst could by obtained simply speaking with her, while having 30 unboosted faith.

[@jonathankkennedy]

@@Edgariki if you're okay with not having a spell or item, that's a you thing, and I'm glad for you. Some of us would prefer having the spell regardless of whether or not we use it.

[@gamingcafevulpes6252]

DS3 PVP and Twinks of the Highwall video when? PTSD flashbacks aside, great video as always. Easy to follow and sound arguments as usual. If this dude hates PVP in DS2 that much, boy, he'll have a field day with the Twinks of the Highwall with their 7 chugs of +10 estus, Dark Hand, and the Hornet Ring. Sometimes the Dragonslayer Axe if they want range. And only stats in HP, from what I've seen. GG game design. Also big points for Moonlight Sonata as the background music.

[@pennding3415]

Most of it? Hbomber spent next to no time on matthew Also mualer did not split the divide because he is not talking about PvP he is talking about enemies "on equal footing". Remember this a response to what Hbomber says, and Hbomber is talking about even fights with enemies that mirror the player resources and strength. Mauler looks at PvP through this lens and this lens only. Now we it could be that HB was talking about one v one duels, but the examples HB gave earlier were all NPC enemies so I doubt he was thinking about the arena fights you can have. But over all i agree Mauler did not give enough attention to PvP or invasions in general, but neither did HB, so I don't really count it against mauler. Also very good analysis of the PvP combat I used to watch some channels that fought and commentator on PvP in dark souls 1,2, and 3 all the time, so even though I don't have personal experience with dark souls pvp I understand and agree with your criticism of mauler's PvP analysis. That being said the orginal point was "fight on equal footing" and invasions have no pretense of being fair.

[@maxavierpeterson2547]

Hey, wait, MauLer is also literally just wrong about the mechanics of DS2. You can't stunlock in DS2, after 3 hits, on average, hit-stun ends. That's a valid DS1 complaint, but DS2 specifically addresses this.

[@Umimugo]

the age old question of, "are invasions fair?" followed by "what war crimes?" and "does dying with honor matter?"

[@Karina-winsmore]

About invaders in souls game- from my personal experience in ds3 most invaders are willing to let you be if you do the wiggle and/or friendly emotes and drop them some items. For me it worked 9 times out of 10. One time red even dropped me a giants seed (it was before it got nerfed) with intent to help me through the level. There are all kind of scenarios possible during invasions, straight up pvp fight is just one of them. Online interactions is what makes souls game so wonderfulll and make me come back to them again and again. If there were no online- i would probably completed them once or twice and never returned again.

[@SwagTheDripper]

Oh I'm excited, need to watch it when I get home😊

[@schmoop3660]

I think it was warranted for MauLer to talk about Nic invasions because this was the section responding to hbomberhuy’s “dude’s in armour” and Harris was arguing that pvp was good because the enemy is similar to you which applies to both player invasions and npc invasions. That’s probably why MauLer brought up these points

[@monkeman5895]

Npc invasions aren’t PvP, they’re PvE because they’re programmed to be very different from actual player invaders so putting them in the PvP section was incredibly dumb

[@schmoop3660]

@@monkeman5895 but it wasn't the pvp section it was the dudes in armour section

[@monkeman5895]

@@schmoop3660 oh then I sure do hope he wanked Artorias and O and S too since those are probably the only memorable bosses people cared about

[@BhopOwnz]

Bell Bros. here. You come to the Belfry looking for trouble, and I promise I'm going to try and get you to fall down a ladder.

[@sernoddicusthegallant6986]

My poor ass just wanting the dragontooth for a new playthrough: "Aw shit here we go again"

[@littlemoth4956]

Don't think Ds2's PvP really needs defending. It's pretty heavily agreed upon that it has the best PvP in the series.

[@Zimzilla99]

The reason MauLer mentions ai in relation to PvP because Harris Originally put AI and PvP in the point being discussed. Harris was not referring to dueling but conflated Pvp, invasions, and what he considers fair fight bosses Aside from that most of your points are some of the same I had when this section of the video came up despite me agreeing largely with most of the points presented

[@jmnthem]

Zimzilla 99 If anything, this only makes Harris’ original points more inscrutable.

[@Zimzilla99]

dangitjm that’s Harris for you

[@uricko6829]

Hdumberguy

[@thepoofster2251]

Ds2 was my first ds game and I have to admit, I got rekt in pvp. I frequently said the game was unfair, had shit net code, crazy phantom range, and bullshit 1 shot parry follow ups. But now, 2000 hours of ds2 later, I can see how niave I was. There is SOOOOOO MUCH to learn that pvp feels unfair, but given time and patience, you WILL fall in love with ds2 pvp. So many builds, predictive parries, quick swapping, just so much to learn and love. Good critique my man! Stay healthy

[@Your_National_Anthem]

Just caught this channel today. Love long Souls videos and it's good to see someone to respond to Maulers mess of a critique on PVP, he clearly doesn't actually care about it and just wanted to whine a bit.

[@Gakusangi]

I wouldn't call it a mess, but it definitely felt less informed than other parts. It's kind of telling when you see no footage of hardly anyone being an invader, only a host.

[@Nostradankus]

You talking about the way that MauLer and Co reacted to what was ultimately a predictable and "reasonable" outcome of their PvP fights really made me think about my own misgivings with PvP in the franchise. I was never really interested in this aspect of Souls games and those time I would get invaded it would often feel very unfair, but taking those reactions at face value isn't right. After all, most people who are new to Souls will react the same way when dying to a PvE enemy. "How was I supposed to dodge that?" "This attack has so much range, it's bullshit!" "I swear I was blocking!", you probably know what I'm talking about. But in the same way they get better at PvE and learn to roll into attacks, take animation delays into account and so on, they *would* get better at PvP if they kept at it. They're - and by extension I - don't get mad because the game is unfair, we get mad because Dark Souls needs you to learn it's mechanics to feel fair.

[@leonseuropeanislandadventu7398]

Broken hitboxes, latency existent in every fight, and backstabs working as they do are not mechanics lol. That's bad game design.

[@Orthane]

If DS2 had a full eye orb everything would be solved. Because DS2 already has the best PvP, and it's invasion mechanics are also the best. No pointless hp punish for invaders. No one except the host can use healing items when invaded which means gank spanking isn't a 10 minute long endurance fight. The combat is more than either Backstab: Remastered or R1 Souls 3. And most of all, it's actually fun and every single playstyle is not only viable, but actually good.

[@Paintbait]

It was because of an earlier video by Dangitjm that I ever gave PVP a shake, that I learned to cope with the chaos it adds into a PvE session. Because of that I became familiar with the mechanics, explored its depths and got better at it to the point where I really feel like I get to choose how and when I want to interact with PVP. Embrace invasions, it's part of the sum of the parts which make these games good and unique. Explore some PVP and become familiar with what the meta game holds and most of the time, even during invasions, you will be able to take advantage of the high ground Dark Souls usually puts the host on. The invader is almost always at a disadvantage, so given that you should usually be successful. Then when you're not, you just learned something you didn't know before: how the invader got one over. Then you can add that to your lexicon, the dictionary that informs how you play the games.

[@DarkBloodSouls]

Whoa didn't expect a response vid to Mauler! His DS2 vids were a great watch (if not overly long)

[@MrValandas]

Recently caught your channel. Been binge watching your content. You sound like and handle yourself like a really cool nerd, hope you're doing well.

[@BLK_MN]

I’ve never looked at the argument as “PVP”. For me, it’s always been about invasions and co-op (fighting off invaders specifically). Some of the best invasions I’ve had are from DS2. No healing, unless you use miracles, which I didn’t mostly. I can probably count the times I’ve used miracles to heal myself in DS2 invasions on my hands, a drop in the bucket. You’re just another, more intelligent, enemy for the Host to PvE against. Even if they have phantoms/spirits, not much changes this scenario... unless they huddle next to the bonfire and try to wait you out, or bait you into a gank. The time restriction on invasions and the fact there is no infinite Red Eye Orb are my only complaints about invading in DS2 (I’m going to save my blood pressure by not talking about Soul Memory). These restrictions on invaders make the hunt, the kill, all the more deliciously intricate. You only really get one shot to kill the host, and repeated invasions are precious, so it makes the hunt more potent. That allllllll being said, I’ve never had more unfair kills as an invader in any Souls game like DS2. Seriously, an unprepared host is like clubbing baby seals, especially of you’re like me, and like Ultra Weapons. A single backstab, or a single blow breaks their guard, and you instantly crush them. Poor hosts with no effigies, and a really high Soul Memory, but low Soul Level, lol.

[@K-Sha1]

"That is some fuckin bullshit netcoding if I've ever seen it." He says as he clearly misses and gives his opponent time to roll every time he swings, and follows up even after this fact is apparent. What are you, DSP?

[@D00M3R-SK8]

DKS 2 is widely considered to be the From game with the best PvP. It's the one thing it did better than the other games.

[@bliczb8772]

Low and behold, not sure if you were informed, but on EFAP #86 (9:03:48) Mauler actually acknowledged the existance of the video. Low and behold, first thing he started with is admitting that if he was to pick one part of his DS2 videos that was weak, he'd have pick the PvP part. He admitted that he didn't explore PvP as much as he should've, and he regrets it. He still heavily dislikes DS2, and on that, I can symphatize - quite frankly, design choices of this game still leave me baffled (looking at you, ADP... The more I think about it, the more I hate it). But the gist is - Mauler admits you're right. Congratulations. Following is coming from me - Despite me believing that DS2 is crap, I genuinely believe that there's a defence of it to be made. PvP system, as well as build variety being superior to that of other entries being the ones that come to my mind. But not from Harris, he was incapable of providing a proper defense. Hell, I genuinely believe he only made matters worse. If you were to tell me his video is the best defense DS2 will ever get... That's not looking good. And a final sidenote - you might remember it or not, but in one of the parts, Mauler was talking that if Harris can do videos proper, and cited his Fallout 3 video. Now... Since that, he came to retract from that statement. I can't remember which EFAP it was, (it was one of the superchat catchups, he was playing Metroid at the time, can't recall which one) but one of the superchats mentioned Harris, and then Mauler noted that after what he did to his DS2 video, people started doing the same to his Fallout 3 video. And having the knowledge of things Harris made in his DS2 video, he wouldn't be surprised if he did the same to Fallout 3.

[@lunarbreeze5019]

DS2 was the best one in terms of repeatability and doing builds fast.

[@Ghorda9]

try bee-lining a mundane ladle with an early doors of pharros to get a stone, a fun challenge until the dlcs.

[@CriminalizeObesity]

I'd say DSR has the fasted build making considering how braindead easy it is to dupe almost EVERYTHING in that game SOLO It's an absolute pain when your DS2 build wants WoG, Curved Twinblades or Chaos pyros

[@gax1337]

always nice to see someone argue with mauler in a civil manner, great work on this vid, props to you man.

[@zedoctor3724]

"Please remember the difference between subjectivity and objectivity. I am telling you about the functionality of the thing being terrible, not that your feelings aren't valid." This line from Mauler is an absolute gem in ALL the wrong ways. He says that he is objectively assessing the functionality of something, but in the same sentence, *he* *makes* *it* *a* *subjective* *assessment* *by* *calling* *it* *terrible.* Calling the functionality terrible isn't any more objective than calling it okay/mediocre/a little bad.

[@visperad541]

Though MauLer is wrong about the PvP being terrible, you can absolutely make objective assessments of a game's quality. You should explain what you mean by subjective vs objective

[@zedoctor3724]

@@visperad541 Objective statement: This game runs at 30 fps. Subjective statement: This game runs at 30 fps, and that's ok/bad/terrible. Objective statements deal with things such as hard data and measurements, things that can be measured to confirm validity. Once you start bringing in personal feelings into the statement such as, "This thing is good/bad." It's not an objective statement anymore. You might as well be arguing about which is objectively better between vanilla and chocolate ice cream. Hell, you disagreeing that the PvP is terrible further illustrates how there is no objectively provable statements on the PvP quality itself. If someone like Mauler thinks you can make definitive objective statements on the quality of piece of art, then there is a bad misunderstanding of the concept of objectivity somewhere along the lines.

[@visperad541]

@zedoctor3724 I'm less interested in what objective statements deal with, and more with what they are/what objective means. Objective means that it can be verified with evidence, or independent of anyone's feelings. You're begging the question here by saying "this thing is good/bad" is subjective without proving it. That's my argument, you can objectively say whether something is good or bad. I agree that the ice cream example is subjective, because it deals with taste, which is a subjective preference. The quality of the ice cream, however, can be objectively decided. MauLer and I disagreeing about PvP being terrible does not prove that it isn't objective, since objectivity doesn't mean "everyone agrees". MauLer *DOES* understand what objective means, but that doesn't preclude him from making errors or being wrong. And if quality is subjective, do you think that it's impossible for someone to recognize commendable elements and traits of a video game and still not like it?

[@zedoctor3724]

​@@visperad541 If you can back up a subjective claim like good/mediocre/bad with an objectively provable attribute, *that* *doesn't* *make* *the* *subjective* *claim* *objectively* *true.* It's like trying to prove that it's objectively cold outside if you can prove it's 55 degrees with a thermostat. You haven't objectively proven that it's cold, you've objectively proven that it's 55 degrees. "And if quality is subjective, do you think that it's impossible for someone to recognize commendable elements and traits of a video game and still not like it?" Somebody identifying elements or traits in something and finding them as commendable is yet again, ANOTHER subjective act. That's a trick question you're putting out there, because what you're describing is also someone going through a subjective process. For example, I really don't like the Kingdom Hearts games. But if I put my feelings aside on the game as a whole, I do commend the graphics of those games. But me finding that element of the game commendable, does NOT mean the graphics are OBJECTIVELY good.

[@visperad541]

@@zedoctor3724 Ah, but you're begging the question again. A claim that can be verified with evidence or measurement *is* objective. You're just asserting that the claim is still subjective even though it has gone through the qualifications of being objective. A subjective claim literally *cannot* be objectively proven (other than that it exists; it can even be proven incorrect in the event that the person is lying). The temperature thing is actually perfect. Let's say it's 45 degrees outside on our thermometer. Then we look at what cold means: "Being a temperature that is uncomfortably low for humans" or "having a relatively low temperature or one lower than normal or expected". If we're in a place that is normally 70 degrees, it's cold. Objectively. You can say that subjectively you like the temp, or that it doesn't bother you, but it is an objective claim. The act of putting aside your feelings for a game means you are identifying elements that can be measured by anyone. That is objective. It's not perfect of course, nobody can put aside 100% of their biases and preferences, but you can still make objective claims about the quality of art. Because again, quality doesn't mean someone will like it. It is the quality of the game itself, nobody is forced to like it. It seems like you consider "this is good" and "I like this" to be equivalent in meaning. Is this true, or am I off the mark? Because I think that the two, especially "like" and "good", have completely different functions. If you don't, I don't think I'll ever convince you.

[@LittOnTheFifty]

Vageta made a great point like a decade ago: dark souls inst street fighter, and its not meant to be

[@alecrutz956]

imagine someone makes an hours long response to this. holy shit what rabbit hole has matthew opened?

[@thejobyincident]

this video correctly represents my takeaways from 6k hours in ds2 pvp and concerns regarding the pvp in future titles.

[@henrikh3089]

Awesome, just when I was starting a big cleaning session, now I have something to listen too

[@AdamArchangel]

He (Mauler) keeps referring to AI invasions as PvP content, but if we're being technical, they're part of the PvE of the game. They're present even if you play offline, and if the only difference between an AI enemy is whether or not they're shaded red, then that's not the difference between PvE and PvP. They're both PvE.

[@fifzeppelin]

It's important to know the context of him saying all of this is in response to an argument that also lumps the two together.

[@Mattroid99]

@@fifzeppelin Exactly.

[@CH4R10T_TV]

You've gotta give MauLer points for thoroughness minute-by-minute, but I can't abide his longstanding abusive relationship with the word "objective." It doesn't even seem to be a bit, it's just how he thinks, apparently.

[@vivechjorviani5440]

Everything can be judged objectively to some measure

[@CH4R10T_TV]

@@vivechjorviani5440 All judgments are, by the very nature of the concept, *subject* to perspective, which isn't the same thing as saying everything is relative, but neither MauLer nor any KZbin critic has any claim to anything resembling objectivity. They have to make a harder argument, if they're smart: why their perspective is preferable, thereby validating their critique. To imply one's chosen perspective is itself objectivity is worse than untrue, it's a dodge, a lack of accountability for one's own views and a lack of insight delivered to the viewer.

[@Hustler2_]

Damn, I absolutely love yours and Mauler's voices. What a pleasure it was to watch this video.

[@low9904]

Dark souls 2 is still my most played dark souls cuz of the pvp

[@mrreaper8826]

To the guy who made that nine part series of ds2, I'm guessing he did very well on those punishment essays that require you to describe a door in 900 words or more.

[@CaptianSwan]

What I find hilarious is when people try to say something is objectively good or bad while simultaneously declaring that something being fun or not is subjective.

[@harrygarris6921]

Well the worst part is when someone talks about how one game's mechanics being objectively better designed makes it a better game. Personally I am well aware that Dark souls 3 is an objectively better designed game than DS2 or even DS1 for that matter. I've still had way more fun with the first two games in the series and found DS3 pretty disappointing. Fun is subjective everyone experiences it differently.

[@CaptianSwan]

@@harrygarris6921 But thats exactly what subjective is. If there is no way to make precise and reliable measurements that any observer can agree on then its not objective. The only way you can make the claim that DS3 is objectively better designed than DS2 is if you make some rules about what is good or bad game design. Simply relying on the definitions of the words leaves it too unclear and there is no major authority on measuring game design to default to.

[@jerm70]

@@CaptianSwan I mean its not hard to be objectively better than Dark Souls 2. It is rather objective for an example that the amount of enemies in a lot of sections of Dark Souls 2 is too absurd for gameplay designed to be a methodical ARPG rather than a hack and slash.

[@CaptianSwan]

@@jerm70 Objective is not an intensity descriptor. Something is objective when two observers can come to the same conclusions while measuring the property in question. How do you propose an objective measure of "too absurd" for "methodical ARPG". These are very loosely defined concepts at best. Its an objective statement to say there are many enemies in Dark Souls 2. Its probably even objective to say that more enemies are present in any given area of Dark Souls 2 than 1 or 3. Its NOT objective to say there are TOO many, as thats an opinion. On top of that, how do you objectively measure a game's "goodness" and why must it be related to enemy counts?

[@jerm70]

@@CaptianSwan What does objective mean in your opinion? That's the problem you ultimately come up with. No one is arguing about objective truths but rather being objective in their views of something. Not putting emotional attachment to it.

[@ozozo12345]

The one thing I loved about Dark Souls 2's PvP was when I fought Power Stancing Duelers. Nothing gets me moister than an oyster then seeing people use this fun mechanic instead of R1 spamming with a thrusting sword.

[@NewWorldF00l]

Just the fact that the off-hand weapon had its full moveset was just a delight when it comes to build variety even when you dont consider powerstancing

[@rondorondo557]

The majority of MauLer's critique feels as too much based on his own experience with the game, which is not a problem, but he tries to impart it as everyone's experience (although, he's not very clear about it) for the sake of "objectivity" (which, after thinking a little bit more about it, is not so much objective, as it is a subjectively ordinated approach to critique: a common form of critique, but not an objective one I any way, because such a thing is impossible, basically). That is a recurrent rationale in KZbin and pop criticism, in which people try to seem more credible by describing their commentary as "objective", without noticing the challenges implied by such notion.

[@just0sex0fever]

It is an objective take. Meaning he TRIES to look at it without any biases. I do understand tho that word objective can be misleading.

[@rondorondo557]

@@just0sex0fever I think that, not only the word is misleading, but it's factually incorrect to use. MauLer's own experience with the game (and the clips that he shows from colleagues to support his points) are biased towards his views about the game; I'm not saying that it's bad that he critiques media by those parameters, I'm just clarifying that such a thing as "objective critique" is not possible (neither desirable, I adhere). I guess you could say that he tries to be objective, but then, if he's trying, it's clearly not completely objective, since it's passive of failing in doing such a thing (besides, you can't measure how objective something is, because all kinds of standard are, somewhat, subjective; the same goes for critique). I just think that such a position is kind of self-defeating and tone deaf when you think about how critique developed throughout the years since it became a thing (literary criticism).

[@just0sex0fever]

@@rondorondo557 Well it does fall under the definition of objective opinion. I mean his take, nit his friend's reaction. Btw he also says in the later parts that these portions with friends being frustrated are nit arguments - he just finds them funny so decided to spice up the review with them.

[@rondorondo557]

@@just0sex0fever I think you kind of got what I was saying in a roundabout way: you stated it falls under the definition of objective opinion, and that's basically alright. It's an opinion after all, and he has some kind of standard to elaborate his opinion. The main criticism that I have to MauLer's approach would be his presumptuousness of assuming that his points are indisputable because he's objective (and also how people use the word "objective" to seem more credible), since critique can't really be objective. You can have objective standards, but they are always going to be based on a subjective stance (see open-question argument).

[@just0sex0fever]

@@rondorondo557 Well that opens that good old can of worms that we call subjectivity debate..... I am not sure i will be able to respond before going to sleep already. It is a huge topic and i haven't slept for like 20 hours. But overall my stance is always that even tho no human can be perfectly objective - it would benefit us greatly if in our criticism we will try to be as objective as possible. I'm not saying subjective criticism is not needed. Hell, saud Mauler's unbridled rage series shows how entertaining that can be. But i consider such criticism not AS valuable in determine the quality of the product. They can raise or decrease a score, but will never have as much say in the quality aspect like working mechanics, functionality and so on and so forth. At least that would be my sleepy take for now.

[@MineKynoMine]

Good vid, you addressed pretty much all of what I think his biggest blunder in the original video was except the bits which you then followed up with in a comment below (geez you're good :P). Keep up the good work 👍🏿

[@AkiraSatou]

I was absolutely upset how distasteful Mauler was of PVP, almost every point he had fell flat against it, but everything else held up. You can tell how much he actually PVP'd.

[@darkthorpocomicknight7891]

Feel the same with Last Jedi - honed in on weak points the milk, Holdo plot - and cleverly avoided the good scenes to get away with saying its "incompetent." Does cherry picking a lot in his content imo

[@AkiraSatou]

@@darkthorpocomicknight7891 Are you sure the cherry picking is in fact cherry picking? A lot of claims for this I see are purely done because the original argument pulled out enough heavy factual statements that it didn't need anymore than a couple examples, while getting called cherry picking as if it doesn't fit the whole bill. With this in mind can you confidently say it as such?

[@fernandosegovia8806]

@@darkthorpocomicknight7891 I think that's a common thing in his "short" videos and that's why I love his longer analysis so much, he literally picks apart every single scene and event from whatever he's talking about.

[@darkthorpocomicknight7891]

@@fernandosegovia8806 Well, all I can say you wrong empirically. I will do a video showing this he misses something BIG in several scenes which made me start doubting him and researching more - almost everything he says falls apart

[@jean-philippehaufroid6425]

@@darkthorpocomicknight7891 Like ?

[@wahwahwah6690]

The invader shooting dark orb wasn't twinking. Dark orb is one of the best spells in the game and it can easily 3 shot another player at low level with a decent catalyst.

[@zawarudo8991]

Guy was using the staff that boosts dark spells and the hexer robe. Chances are. He was a glass cannon.

[@wahwahwah6690]

​@@zawarudo8991Exactly.